Racing to the bottom.
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Rah rah rah, sorry if I repeat something in the seven pages I didn't read, but all I can see is that wage bargaining is a game, like winning a court case, and big companies (eg Q), are very good at it. They have an ongoing process involving softening the employees up with beautifully written and produced (with colour photos) literature. This stuff is basically propoganda about how the shareholders need bigger profits, and even though "the company" is making a massive profit already, it is not enough. If employees want to avoid the possibility of the company folding and everyone losing out, then they'd better toe the line and accept offsets for any wage increases they may get. (an offset means: if you get a pay rise, even in accordance with inflation, then you must give up something to get it). Every offset is a devaluation of the worth of every pilot, and the big companies are very good at training us to be ready to accept it. This is understandable, they are doing their job, and any executive will get a bigger salary and payout if they can screw the workers as much as possible (if the workers actually like it all the better). I have no answer, except to see what is going on and start to question it. At least by talking about what is going on, it makes it harder for them to pull the wool over our eyes, and they 'may have to work a bit harder to turn us into slaves.
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When will we have hit rock bottom?
When 1 single union tells their employer that I'm sorry but your offer is not good eneough and we are going to engage in protected industrial action in accordance with IRC rules until you can offer something that is acceptable to us.
QF LAMES are currently in EBA negotiations and of course they have stalled because QF won't offer anything beside the standard 3% as long as we sell our soul again.
Well I get the feeling that we might just be pissed off as a union eneough to tell them to get stuffed!! All you cabin crew and tech crew can help by calling for a LAME whenever you need help or would like us to check something you're not sure about.
There just aren't eneough of us to go around and it might result in delays(which is an anathema to us all) but they simply won't listen otherwise!!!!!!
I'm sure it will be easier for pilots, flight attendants and everyone else to argue for a 5-6 % pay increase if the LAMES got one(in line with the rest of the country).
So if we do engage in protected industrial action in coming weeks help us and help yourselves by calling for a LAME if in doubt about something. Remember-the company motto is "BE SAFE"
You never know it could signify the bottom for all of us!!!!!!
When 1 single union tells their employer that I'm sorry but your offer is not good eneough and we are going to engage in protected industrial action in accordance with IRC rules until you can offer something that is acceptable to us.
QF LAMES are currently in EBA negotiations and of course they have stalled because QF won't offer anything beside the standard 3% as long as we sell our soul again.
Well I get the feeling that we might just be pissed off as a union eneough to tell them to get stuffed!! All you cabin crew and tech crew can help by calling for a LAME whenever you need help or would like us to check something you're not sure about.
There just aren't eneough of us to go around and it might result in delays(which is an anathema to us all) but they simply won't listen otherwise!!!!!!
I'm sure it will be easier for pilots, flight attendants and everyone else to argue for a 5-6 % pay increase if the LAMES got one(in line with the rest of the country).
So if we do engage in protected industrial action in coming weeks help us and help yourselves by calling for a LAME if in doubt about something. Remember-the company motto is "BE SAFE"
You never know it could signify the bottom for all of us!!!!!!
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Afraid to say the horse bolted years ago folks. All anyone can do these days is make as much as you can as fast as you can, and if somebody offers you somthing better, take it with both hands!
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Food for thought. Found this article in a recent edition of the Financial Review.
Netballers join union
The Australian Netball Players Association has signed a deal with the Australian Workers Union. The alliance is aimed at improving the income and health and safety conditions of elite players.
If a group of netballers can get their act together why can't the Australian Pilot body?
In the past I personally have had resrvations about unions especially after what happened in the 70's. Many of the Unions of the day brought many companies to their knees. (My father's included.) This left a bad taste in my mouth for a long time.
However, as I have sat back and watched this industry sink like the Titanic I strongly feel if we want to salvage anything from this industry we must unite. I strongly believe there is no other way.
In a previous life I was an accountant and we had dozens of guys on our books who were working in underground mines operating equipment worth millions of dollars. Many of the guys ( and girls) were licenced to operate 5 or six machines.
NONE of these people paid for their licences/endorsements.
Netballers join union
The Australian Netball Players Association has signed a deal with the Australian Workers Union. The alliance is aimed at improving the income and health and safety conditions of elite players.
If a group of netballers can get their act together why can't the Australian Pilot body?
In the past I personally have had resrvations about unions especially after what happened in the 70's. Many of the Unions of the day brought many companies to their knees. (My father's included.) This left a bad taste in my mouth for a long time.
However, as I have sat back and watched this industry sink like the Titanic I strongly feel if we want to salvage anything from this industry we must unite. I strongly believe there is no other way.
In a previous life I was an accountant and we had dozens of guys on our books who were working in underground mines operating equipment worth millions of dollars. Many of the guys ( and girls) were licenced to operate 5 or six machines.
NONE of these people paid for their licences/endorsements.
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Pass-A-Frozo Can i employ you? 
i would love a coffee every hour! oh, and you will be working a 55 hr week! annual leave, hmmmmmm no. sick leave, only if you die! superannuation? HA!
but ill pay you $1200 a week after taxes and you will pay for your HR and HC licences,and medicals and forkies ticket, but if you want to earn $1300 a week, you will need a dangerous good ticket, that will cost you about $2000. and while your out there on the road, you will pay for the fuel you use, i will reimbuse you the GST component.
does this sound fair to you?
Unions have their place. otherwise you would be seriously considering my offer above.
A communist state! its called NSW, why should i pay land tax and vendor tax to help a first home owner? oh, and if i walk to a sporting event, i will pay tax to cover those going by train.
great windup!
i would love a coffee every hour! oh, and you will be working a 55 hr week! annual leave, hmmmmmm no. sick leave, only if you die! superannuation? HA!but ill pay you $1200 a week after taxes and you will pay for your HR and HC licences,and medicals and forkies ticket, but if you want to earn $1300 a week, you will need a dangerous good ticket, that will cost you about $2000. and while your out there on the road, you will pay for the fuel you use, i will reimbuse you the GST component.
does this sound fair to you?
Unions have their place. otherwise you would be seriously considering my offer above.
A communist state! its called NSW, why should i pay land tax and vendor tax to help a first home owner? oh, and if i walk to a sporting event, i will pay tax to cover those going by train.
great windup!
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Pass-A-Frozo
unions.
You must have the utimate employee if you don't see any value in Unions, and good luck to you if that is the case.
As far as I am concerned my Union Membership Card is as an essential item in my flight bags as my approach plates, torch etc.
Perhaps you are confusing general union membership with the more militant such as those from the past, ie: BLF SP&D and the Waterfront Workers.
Maybe Ultralights is correct, a windup.
unions.
As far as I am concerned my Union Membership Card is as an essential item in my flight bags as my approach plates, torch etc.
Perhaps you are confusing general union membership with the more militant such as those from the past, ie: BLF SP&D and the Waterfront Workers.
Maybe Ultralights is correct, a windup.
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Ultralights:
1> No I won't work for those conditions. I just wouldn't accept your job.
2> However also, I won't join a union, accept your conditions and then complain like a 12 year old girl who lost her barbie doll. I reckon union members are nothing but a pack of whingers. Take what you're worth. I think most of us are overpaid anyway.
Unions no value: It's true. It is economic fact. Unions cost the economy money . They cost jobs, and force companies to pay people more than they are worth. You only like unions because you are selfish and wish to be paid more than the economy says you are worth. People like you complain about the state of the aviation industry in Australia. You want hundreds of jobs, and them all to pay well. Welcome to life, it doesn't work that way.
If you don't like the pay and conditions, put up with it or change jobs. It's called supply and demand.
You want to see what people think of pilots and the pilots union take a trip up to Kalbarri. Where pilots going on strike put a seafood company out of business and left hundreds of families broke.
You're not living in a Nazi death camp. Don't like the pay, QUIT.
I'm not stopping you joining a union. But, don't complain because people like me won't join with you, and refuse to strike.
1> No I won't work for those conditions. I just wouldn't accept your job.
2> However also, I won't join a union, accept your conditions and then complain like a 12 year old girl who lost her barbie doll. I reckon union members are nothing but a pack of whingers. Take what you're worth. I think most of us are overpaid anyway.
Unions no value: It's true. It is economic fact. Unions cost the economy money . They cost jobs, and force companies to pay people more than they are worth. You only like unions because you are selfish and wish to be paid more than the economy says you are worth. People like you complain about the state of the aviation industry in Australia. You want hundreds of jobs, and them all to pay well. Welcome to life, it doesn't work that way.
If you don't like the pay and conditions, put up with it or change jobs. It's called supply and demand.
You want to see what people think of pilots and the pilots union take a trip up to Kalbarri. Where pilots going on strike put a seafood company out of business and left hundreds of families broke.
You're not living in a Nazi death camp. Don't like the pay, QUIT.
I'm not stopping you joining a union. But, don't complain because people like me won't join with you, and refuse to strike.
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 3rd Mar 2005 at 22:03.
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In my present Company we have a doctor, several lawyers, several Masters (MSc, MEc, MAppFin etc not bullsh1t MBA's - though there's a few of them in the management...), lot's of Bachelor degrees and so on and so forth. They are all pilots.
Should they be paid for the multiples of years spent training for all their qualifications and to recognise all their intelligence - or should they just be paid for being pilots?
I'm sure they all think it's only fair to receive pilot wages. But their existence does highlight the nonsense of claiming that 'pilots', as a class of humans, couldn't do those sort of jobs.
As a general point - I think comparisons between occupations are unwelcome and unhelpful. Each occupation is a unique blend of attributes and occupies it's own place in the greater labour market. Benchmarking is bullsh1t.
What we need is a tightening of the labour market in our particular area.
Should they be paid for the multiples of years spent training for all their qualifications and to recognise all their intelligence - or should they just be paid for being pilots?
I'm sure they all think it's only fair to receive pilot wages. But their existence does highlight the nonsense of claiming that 'pilots', as a class of humans, couldn't do those sort of jobs.
As a general point - I think comparisons between occupations are unwelcome and unhelpful. Each occupation is a unique blend of attributes and occupies it's own place in the greater labour market. Benchmarking is bullsh1t.
What we need is a tightening of the labour market in our particular area.
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Don't like the pay, QUIT
How about.. don't like the pay, collectively and responsibly bargain for a better deal, preferably for a win-win situation with your employer, thereby enhancing both your bottom lines.
Pass-a-frozo.. let me guess... Air force?.. Military of some type. Been there... swallowed the propaganda... then saw the real world.
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The_Cutest_of_Borg
You are exactly correct about the responsible collective bargaining with the employer. Unfortunately, most Airlines these days don't want to be responsible to their employees, only the shareholders (or oil-wealthy owners), and hence executive management.
However, grouping ex-military pilots in the same lot as Pass-a-Frozo, only serves to divide the pilot community further, and hence assist the overall outdated, but regularly used, management plan of 'divide and conquer'. Most of the ex-military pilots I know agree with responsible bargaining. Maybe Pass-a-Frozo just has his own 'unique'
set of values.
You are exactly correct about the responsible collective bargaining with the employer. Unfortunately, most Airlines these days don't want to be responsible to their employees, only the shareholders (or oil-wealthy owners), and hence executive management.
However, grouping ex-military pilots in the same lot as Pass-a-Frozo, only serves to divide the pilot community further, and hence assist the overall outdated, but regularly used, management plan of 'divide and conquer'. Most of the ex-military pilots I know agree with responsible bargaining. Maybe Pass-a-Frozo just has his own 'unique'
set of values.
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collectively and responsibly bargain for a better deal, preferably for a win-win situation with your employer, thereby enhancing both your bottom lines
I'm curious as to how an employer providing a better deal for you will enhance their bottom line? Simple logic dictates that if you are paid more, your employer needs to find additional sources of income, reduce costs elsewhere or accept reduced profits. Unfortunately, Australian industry isn't run as a communist collective so I guess that rules out reduced profits.
Hmmm, here's a good idea: let's cut costs in other areas such as maintenance by sending work off shore... nup, your fellow pro-union collaborators have made their views on this very clear in this forum.
So that just leaves us with finding addional sources of income: let's charge the punters more! This approach will be crucial in ensuring that SAL doesn't gain a foothold in the Australian market and challenge your on-going employment.
As PAF the crazy military capitalist has stated:
Take what you're worth. I think most of us are overpaid anyway.
In short, what other industry that purports to be in the upper echelons of responsible and important employment within this country still operates as unionised labour? Bus drivers perhaps?
But I digress, seriously though if you wish to make some more coin beyond what the marketplace determines you to be worth, look at how the economic systems work in this country and buy shares in your company. Surely the quality of your efforts will generate profits and you too can share in it.
Last edited by Point0Five; 4th Mar 2005 at 09:29.
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Cutest of the Borg:
I find it quite amusing that someone with Borg in their name would argue for "collective" bargaining
What kind of twisted logic is "If you don't like the pay and conditions associated with a job, quit". Well it's a quaint little economic system called Capitalism.
How dare someone ask you to be qualified to do a job. (e.g. Have paid for your own endorsement)..
You all seem to imagine that you are battling the Kerry Packer types and trying to get your money from him. I've got news for you, the shareholders are mums and dads. Don't believe me, why then is QANTAS included in the Commonwealth Securities' Mums and Dads index? So next time you are claiming that you don't get paid enough, and "stick together" to gouge another payrise that's whose pocket it is coming from.
While you are making quite an assumption to call me ex-military, I'm curious as to what "propaganda" you think the military espouses?
The kids are out of the mines people, put the union to bed and stand up for yourself - don't expect others to do it for you. A bit of rugged individualism wouldn't go astray. No-one "forced" you to go into aviation, no one "forced" you to work for a particular company. Don't like it -- you can quit. Or you can continue to try and screw the Australian public; your choice.
Unions reduce the number of jobs available in an industry. It is an economic fact. So how about next time you're pushing for a big pay rise you take a trip down the local aero club and explain to the kids down there why you're making it harder for them to get a job in Aviation.... or don't you care because you've 'made it'?
I find it quite amusing that someone with Borg in their name would argue for "collective" bargaining
What kind of twisted logic is "If you don't like the pay and conditions associated with a job, quit". Well it's a quaint little economic system called Capitalism.
How dare someone ask you to be qualified to do a job. (e.g. Have paid for your own endorsement)..
You all seem to imagine that you are battling the Kerry Packer types and trying to get your money from him. I've got news for you, the shareholders are mums and dads. Don't believe me, why then is QANTAS included in the Commonwealth Securities' Mums and Dads index? So next time you are claiming that you don't get paid enough, and "stick together" to gouge another payrise that's whose pocket it is coming from.
While you are making quite an assumption to call me ex-military, I'm curious as to what "propaganda" you think the military espouses?
The kids are out of the mines people, put the union to bed and stand up for yourself - don't expect others to do it for you. A bit of rugged individualism wouldn't go astray. No-one "forced" you to go into aviation, no one "forced" you to work for a particular company. Don't like it -- you can quit. Or you can continue to try and screw the Australian public; your choice.
Unions reduce the number of jobs available in an industry. It is an economic fact. So how about next time you're pushing for a big pay rise you take a trip down the local aero club and explain to the kids down there why you're making it harder for them to get a job in Aviation.... or don't you care because you've 'made it'?
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A point of order - Point0Five - aviation is not classified as a high risk industry.
It is classified as a "High threat but low risk industry". Along with nuclear reactors and oil tankers.
That is - it doesn't go wrong often, but when it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way.
It is classified as a "High threat but low risk industry". Along with nuclear reactors and oil tankers.
That is - it doesn't go wrong often, but when it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way.
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I'm curious as to how an employer providing a better deal for you will enhance their bottom line? Simple logic dictates that if you are paid more, your employer needs to find additional sources of income, reduce costs elsewhere or accept reduced profits. Unfortunately, Australian industry isn't run as a communist collective so I guess that rules out reduced profits.
I pay my drivers well, my drivers are happy, and willing to go the extra mile for me when i ask of them. my customers are happy because my public face to them (my drivers) are happy! sure i could pay them 30% less, my bottom $$ will look good! but my employees will do less for me when asked, they might become unhappy, and that will be felt by my customers, (who by the way entrust me with an average of $3 MILLION worth of their stock PER DAY! not including master cd, and all associated pre release recordings) so i need drivers i can trust, and keeping them happy is the only way we can earn each otehrs trust, not only that i will have a higher turnover of drivers.
lets see the benefits of Overpaying my employees!, customers are happy, my drivers will go the extra mile without question, to get an urgent or important job done, i get a good rep, customers decide to give me more work (with a company and drivers THEY can trust) more work = more income! trust me, its a fantastic feeling being asked to take over a contract form a very large competitor!
not only that i get the satisfaction of running a sucessfull and Reputable business, that will have a secure income for all involved for the Long term!
I have kept all my drivers for 3 yrs! almost a record in the trucking game. why would they leave?
the reason the aviation industry is the way it is, is simply because Air fares at Train ticket prices is NOT sustainable! corrigan can see that! airlines can see that, but they must cut cost to stay alive! and they do that the only way they know how!
So Mr passed- a- frodo you need a reality check when it comes to Employee- employer relations! as it seams to me you dont understand any side of the argument.
as for screwing the australian public, how about the australian public screwing the industry for wanting to fly from SYD to PERTH for $4.50
a quick question MR passed-a-frodo, (i know it wont be answered truthfully) but how long will you work, at the job you have loved since day dot, in an industry you love, without a pay rise???
sure, i am earning 4 times what i earnt at QF, but i sit in an office, and in a truck and cart pallets, boxes and envelopes, i would rather be fixing planes for a living! its what i love to do most.
you sound like a very unhappy man.
wages and money dont buy happiness! satisfaction in a job well done and pride in doing something that you love and doing it well, creates happiness.
Just Binos
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As I was attempting to phrase a response to Mr Frozo, Ultralights has done it nicely for me. So I'll try to put it into even briefer grabs for Frozo than his own utterances from the HR Nicholls society.
Frozo, a happy workforce is a productive workforce. With me so far? The kids may be out of the mines, but the obscenities that contract-based CEO's are committing in their short-sighted obsession with the companies' bottom lines mean that if they had their way the kids would be right back in the mines. Great for the shareholders.
If you want to keep bending over and taking it up the arse and thanking the company for employing you, then you just carry on, but don't be surprised if your beloved employers don't thank you for it.
Strangely enough, as should be evident here, your fellow employees probably won't think much of you either, but you're a good capitalist, so you will be rewarded in the long run for your loyalty. Won't you? Actually, CEO's of listed companies rarely stick around for more than four years, so it's regrettably possible that your boot licking won't be noticed in that time. Bugger! Perhaps you should move on to page 2 of Industrial Relations 101?
Hint: check my profile, I'm not a pilot, that's always a good place to start attacking.
Frozo, a happy workforce is a productive workforce. With me so far? The kids may be out of the mines, but the obscenities that contract-based CEO's are committing in their short-sighted obsession with the companies' bottom lines mean that if they had their way the kids would be right back in the mines. Great for the shareholders.
If you want to keep bending over and taking it up the arse and thanking the company for employing you, then you just carry on, but don't be surprised if your beloved employers don't thank you for it.
Strangely enough, as should be evident here, your fellow employees probably won't think much of you either, but you're a good capitalist, so you will be rewarded in the long run for your loyalty. Won't you? Actually, CEO's of listed companies rarely stick around for more than four years, so it's regrettably possible that your boot licking won't be noticed in that time. Bugger! Perhaps you should move on to page 2 of Industrial Relations 101?
Hint: check my profile, I'm not a pilot, that's always a good place to start attacking.
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How long will I work in an industry ... blah blah..
Quiet simply.. until I'm not happy with what the industry pays, and I'm unhappy with the day to day conditions I encounter . That is what I've been argueing..
I'm quite happy with my income.
As for not understanding how labour markets work, I'm sure you'll find the majority of economists side with me; given my statements are based in economic fact.
You raise points about what you pay in relation to a happy workforce. Well congratulations, I am indeed happy for you. You have found what you are willing to pay, in relation to the work / attitude your employees provide. THAT is how capitalism works; Why abuse companies that pay less.. if you can do it better, start your own an aviation company. I have no problem with that. I'm sure you would have a problem if your employees turned up tomorrow asking for a 28% pay rise, and said that they would go on strike for it!
As for your arguement, you are saying that the customer is SCREWING the provider of a service?? Unbelievable... the customer will pay the minimum that they have to. So you turn up at the ticket counter and say "I think the pilots don't get paid enough, please - I'll pay double the price - just make sure you tip the pilot". What you have a problem with is competition, and predative pricing behavour.
If you really wish to study human behaviour in an economic context, study Marginal Utility behaviour. It guides all.
I'm quite happy, if I wasn't I'd be looking for a new job. Your final statement almost sums up my arguement. Lots of people are happy to be pilots, and they will accept a pretty low pay rate to do that job. Don't blame anyone other than yourself for that. Again , look at marginal utility theory. It really defies belief that hundreds stand in a queue to take the job of a pilot, yet people abuse them for saying they will do the same job for cheaper. Selfish indeed.
Quiet simply.. until I'm not happy with what the industry pays, and I'm unhappy with the day to day conditions I encounter . That is what I've been argueing..
I'm quite happy with my income.
As for not understanding how labour markets work, I'm sure you'll find the majority of economists side with me; given my statements are based in economic fact.
You raise points about what you pay in relation to a happy workforce. Well congratulations, I am indeed happy for you. You have found what you are willing to pay, in relation to the work / attitude your employees provide. THAT is how capitalism works; Why abuse companies that pay less.. if you can do it better, start your own an aviation company. I have no problem with that. I'm sure you would have a problem if your employees turned up tomorrow asking for a 28% pay rise, and said that they would go on strike for it!
As for your arguement, you are saying that the customer is SCREWING the provider of a service?? Unbelievable... the customer will pay the minimum that they have to. So you turn up at the ticket counter and say "I think the pilots don't get paid enough, please - I'll pay double the price - just make sure you tip the pilot". What you have a problem with is competition, and predative pricing behavour.
If you really wish to study human behaviour in an economic context, study Marginal Utility behaviour. It guides all.
I'm quite happy, if I wasn't I'd be looking for a new job. Your final statement almost sums up my arguement. Lots of people are happy to be pilots, and they will accept a pretty low pay rate to do that job. Don't blame anyone other than yourself for that. Again , look at marginal utility theory. It really defies belief that hundreds stand in a queue to take the job of a pilot, yet people abuse them for saying they will do the same job for cheaper. Selfish indeed.
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I only have an incy-bitcy, tincy-wincy bit of knowledge.
So perhaps you, Pass-a-frozo, can explain to me how, "Unions reduce the number of jobs available in an industry." Without the blanket statement, "it's a fact".
I was under some misapprehension that 'demand' is consumer driven.
Even assuming a worst case scenario, surely unions affect the 'supply' side of the equation?
If we embrace the modern 'market economy' (p.s. which is demand side driven) then the number of jobs demanded in an industry is a response to consumer demand. In a market (which by definition has an infinite number of buyers and sellers ) the price and volume of supply is determined by demand. It is a process of equilibrium.
If we are going to relegate unions to the fringes and castigate them as market aberrations, then we must do the same to the employer organisations.
To paraphrase you then - "the CAI and other employer organisations reduce the number of jobs in an industry".
In fact, neither is true. They both have their rightful place in the modern labour market. It is a process of negotiation and compromise.
Neither are reflected in your ignorant and biased views.
So perhaps you, Pass-a-frozo, can explain to me how, "Unions reduce the number of jobs available in an industry." Without the blanket statement, "it's a fact".
I was under some misapprehension that 'demand' is consumer driven.
Even assuming a worst case scenario, surely unions affect the 'supply' side of the equation?
If we embrace the modern 'market economy' (p.s. which is demand side driven) then the number of jobs demanded in an industry is a response to consumer demand. In a market (which by definition has an infinite number of buyers and sellers ) the price and volume of supply is determined by demand. It is a process of equilibrium.
If we are going to relegate unions to the fringes and castigate them as market aberrations, then we must do the same to the employer organisations.
To paraphrase you then - "the CAI and other employer organisations reduce the number of jobs in an industry".
In fact, neither is true. They both have their rightful place in the modern labour market. It is a process of negotiation and compromise.
Neither are reflected in your ignorant and biased views.
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HIALS
I belive that you have missed the point that I was trying to commnicate... aviation is a high risk industry from an employment point of view.
With regards to safety etc.: your understanding of semantics has highlighted a weakness in my contention. Having said that, I'm the first to agree that the potential consequence of failure is high.
I'm big enough to admit when I've made my point poorly.
Ultralights
I actually agree with you. Excellent managment style!
One simple question: if you are such a good employer and your employees are so satisfied, why are they still members of a union?
By the way: earnt isn't actually a word. It is earned.
I belive that you have missed the point that I was trying to commnicate... aviation is a high risk industry from an employment point of view.
With regards to safety etc.: your understanding of semantics has highlighted a weakness in my contention. Having said that, I'm the first to agree that the potential consequence of failure is high.
I'm big enough to admit when I've made my point poorly.
Ultralights
I actually agree with you. Excellent managment style!
One simple question: if you are such a good employer and your employees are so satisfied, why are they still members of a union?
By the way: earnt isn't actually a word. It is earned.
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why are my guys still in the union? point being, i negotiate my terms with them through the union, no individual contracts! we all know wht would happen to inter employee relations if i gave one driver something the others didnt!
i knew passed a frod wouldn't answer my Question, i spent 11 Yrs at QF and NEVER received a payrise, even after numerous traing courses! then was finally told to get a pay rise, i needed to go to another pay scale, (take a CUT) then work again in the new scale for another 10 yrs to get back where i was!
were would you have stood in that situation without a union.???
without union negitiation, (and by union i mean a collective bargaining group) all of us would be Begging for tips just to scrape a living!
the underlying point to my previos post is....
Pay and conditions should never be based purely on Numbers and the bottom line!
Sure pay them what their worth, what their worth TO YOUR BUSINESS!!!
sorry for the typos, but after working 12 hrs a day, and being 1 am and all. my mind isnt exactly on good grammer and spellchecking.
though i must thank you for a good entertaining thread/ windup!
i knew passed a frod wouldn't answer my Question, i spent 11 Yrs at QF and NEVER received a payrise, even after numerous traing courses! then was finally told to get a pay rise, i needed to go to another pay scale, (take a CUT) then work again in the new scale for another 10 yrs to get back where i was!
were would you have stood in that situation without a union.???
without union negitiation, (and by union i mean a collective bargaining group) all of us would be Begging for tips just to scrape a living!
the underlying point to my previos post is....
Pay and conditions should never be based purely on Numbers and the bottom line!
Sure pay them what their worth, what their worth TO YOUR BUSINESS!!!
sorry for the typos, but after working 12 hrs a day, and being 1 am and all. my mind isnt exactly on good grammer and spellchecking.
though i must thank you for a good entertaining thread/ windup!
Last edited by Ultralights; 4th Mar 2005 at 20:07.