Racing to the bottom.
What - O, its not a downward spiral. What investors chase is returns commensurate with risk and capital appreciation in line with global growth of GDP.
If the expected rate of return for airline investment is 3.5% and GDP growth is 3%, then if you achieve these numbers you are doing OK.
What appears to be happening to airlines is that we are still feeling the after affects of the invention of the low cost carrier. Until the dinosaurs reinvent themselves in this mode there will continue to be angst and tears.
If the expected rate of return for airline investment is 3.5% and GDP growth is 3%, then if you achieve these numbers you are doing OK.
What appears to be happening to airlines is that we are still feeling the after affects of the invention of the low cost carrier. Until the dinosaurs reinvent themselves in this mode there will continue to be angst and tears.
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MkVIII, yes, I am a pilot, and my research is based not only on the aviation industry but on other industries. Flying just isn't that hard compared to other professions. As you suggest I do some research on the aviation, I suggest you do some research on other professions. longjohn had some good stats in his original post, eg "A medical student will study for 7 years before graduation, they will then need to work in the hospital system for a number of years in order to gain experience. Starting salary, $70 - 80k after 7 years of study. Would you study 7 years to fly?"
27/09, thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I'm not speaking with tongue in cheek. I agree that there is a lot more to experience than engine time, which is why I doubled the amount. If we factor in studying and sitting for exams for pilots, we need to factor the same thing in for comparable professionals. Most of the lawyers I know have double-degrees which took them 5 years full-time - way more than any pilot I know has spent on education. I agree that the lawyer does not have 1,500 hours in court, but they will have 1,500 hours practising law, which comparable to flying experience.
As Sunfish says, the industry is changing and the dinosaurs are reinventing themselves. It's up to the individual whether or not they want to be a dinosaur. Personally, I think unionising will be difficult given the steady stream of eager young recruits, but even if it was done, it would simply strengthen the public perception of pilots being glorified bus drivers and corral the pilots for an airline counter-strategy, obviously off-shore.
27/09, thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I'm not speaking with tongue in cheek. I agree that there is a lot more to experience than engine time, which is why I doubled the amount. If we factor in studying and sitting for exams for pilots, we need to factor the same thing in for comparable professionals. Most of the lawyers I know have double-degrees which took them 5 years full-time - way more than any pilot I know has spent on education. I agree that the lawyer does not have 1,500 hours in court, but they will have 1,500 hours practising law, which comparable to flying experience.
As Sunfish says, the industry is changing and the dinosaurs are reinventing themselves. It's up to the individual whether or not they want to be a dinosaur. Personally, I think unionising will be difficult given the steady stream of eager young recruits, but even if it was done, it would simply strengthen the public perception of pilots being glorified bus drivers and corral the pilots for an airline counter-strategy, obviously off-shore.
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Perception.....
It's all a matter of where you stand and look at all of this. If you look at a Pilots worth from a seasoned Pilots point of view, then yes we are all worth more. An experienced Pilot understands what it takes to make it into the Airlines and all of the training and BS that is encountered along the way. Generally speaking only a seasoned Pilot will understand any of this.....
If you look at the Profession of Pilot from the Accountant or Managers point of view things look a little different. 100's of applicants for each position(sometimes 1000's), only 12 months of training for a CPL/IR and no minimum education requirements to get into the course, just a fist full of cash!!!! (It took the Accountant a min of 3 years of Uni study then the CPA/CA study thereafter to get a decent job on 40k-50k: if they show some talent...). So it looks easy to them!!!!!
I think Pilots putting themselves into the same category as Lawyers and Doctors is silly.... It's just too different. It still costs around $33k-$35k (HECS) to do a Law Degree (4 years Full Time) and then postgraduate Legal training to get a Practicing Certificate (more $$$) and the starting pay is still crap.... and most lawyers will never make $100,000 a year. That is a Fact.
One clear difference between a Pilot and a Lawyer is the training. A student wanting to do a Law degree must fulfill academic requirements for entry and then be competitive enough to be accepted, then pass 30+ subjects just to be able to then study to practice.
Imagine if you could just turn up to a Law school and hand over the $$$ and 4 years later you got the degree whether you could do it or not..... just like the sausage factory flying schools.....
A Doctor is just too different for me as a Pilot to ever compare myself... A minimum of 6-7 years of University Study and at least a $50k HECS debt, an Intern year on around $50k, then at last a licence as a Medical Practitioner. But now you have to complete one more year as a House Officer or the like whilst applying to be accepted into a specialty training course that will last another 3-6 years..... and after all of this (12 years minimum)...... Finally a chance to make a decent income..... and just as with lawyers........ Not all Doctors make a fortune...... Only a select few.
A lawyer still has a responsibility to his/her client, the Doctor to the Patient,the Pilot to the passenger. If either make a mistake a persons life can be destroyed in an instant......
Yes we all have responsibility in our jobs, that is a fact for all Professionals. We as Pilots need to stop comparing ourselves to others who are nothing like us (in many ways!!!!) and concentrate on looking after ourselves as a profession to ensure we are remunerated accordingly for the job we do. If we try to be looked at as equals to Lawyers and Doctors we will get shot down because the general public don't have a clue what we really do or have done (Haven't we all been asked if we want to be a commercial Pilot one day after pulling up somewhere on a charter!!!!!). Doctors don't Piss and Moan on a Rumour network..... They have a Bloody strong Union and they respect each other professionally and try to make things better for all Doctors, not just a selfish few.... Sure they all want to make more money than the next Bloke.... but they know the united front of bargaining is far more powerful and secure for the profession than snaking and undercutting.....
Maybe Pilots could learn a thing or two from them.... instead of just comparing themselves to them......
If you look at the Profession of Pilot from the Accountant or Managers point of view things look a little different. 100's of applicants for each position(sometimes 1000's), only 12 months of training for a CPL/IR and no minimum education requirements to get into the course, just a fist full of cash!!!! (It took the Accountant a min of 3 years of Uni study then the CPA/CA study thereafter to get a decent job on 40k-50k: if they show some talent...). So it looks easy to them!!!!!
I think Pilots putting themselves into the same category as Lawyers and Doctors is silly.... It's just too different. It still costs around $33k-$35k (HECS) to do a Law Degree (4 years Full Time) and then postgraduate Legal training to get a Practicing Certificate (more $$$) and the starting pay is still crap.... and most lawyers will never make $100,000 a year. That is a Fact.
One clear difference between a Pilot and a Lawyer is the training. A student wanting to do a Law degree must fulfill academic requirements for entry and then be competitive enough to be accepted, then pass 30+ subjects just to be able to then study to practice.
Imagine if you could just turn up to a Law school and hand over the $$$ and 4 years later you got the degree whether you could do it or not..... just like the sausage factory flying schools.....
A Doctor is just too different for me as a Pilot to ever compare myself... A minimum of 6-7 years of University Study and at least a $50k HECS debt, an Intern year on around $50k, then at last a licence as a Medical Practitioner. But now you have to complete one more year as a House Officer or the like whilst applying to be accepted into a specialty training course that will last another 3-6 years..... and after all of this (12 years minimum)...... Finally a chance to make a decent income..... and just as with lawyers........ Not all Doctors make a fortune...... Only a select few.
A lawyer still has a responsibility to his/her client, the Doctor to the Patient,the Pilot to the passenger. If either make a mistake a persons life can be destroyed in an instant......
Yes we all have responsibility in our jobs, that is a fact for all Professionals. We as Pilots need to stop comparing ourselves to others who are nothing like us (in many ways!!!!) and concentrate on looking after ourselves as a profession to ensure we are remunerated accordingly for the job we do. If we try to be looked at as equals to Lawyers and Doctors we will get shot down because the general public don't have a clue what we really do or have done (Haven't we all been asked if we want to be a commercial Pilot one day after pulling up somewhere on a charter!!!!!). Doctors don't Piss and Moan on a Rumour network..... They have a Bloody strong Union and they respect each other professionally and try to make things better for all Doctors, not just a selfish few.... Sure they all want to make more money than the next Bloke.... but they know the united front of bargaining is far more powerful and secure for the profession than snaking and undercutting.....
Maybe Pilots could learn a thing or two from them.... instead of just comparing themselves to them......
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Flying just isn't that hard compared to other professions.
And just as there are certain "tiers" in the other professions, eg. law - articled clerk, lawyer, barrister, QC, Judge - or medicine, nurse, intern, G.P., specialist, Mister - there are similarly various "tiers" in the profession of flying.
As a matter of fact, there would probably be MORE tiers in aviation than in perhaps ANY other profession (that I can think of).
And so as easy as it is for a PPL with an instrument rating to consider himself just a short flight removed from the professional, multi-crew, multi-engine pilot, the REALITY is quite different, as is the vast difference in knowledge and areas of responsibility between the two.
The requirements of flying are not ONLY of a manipulative nature, but also an ability to make vital decisions quickly in what may be rapidly changing conditions and to accept the responsibilty for those decisions.
If flying were not considered to be a challenging occupation - but rather, a more passive one, such as those listed earlier, where the time to make a decision is often NOT critical and may be pondered by hours, days, or even months before arriving at a final one (which may be further challenged!!) - then pilots would not be subjected to the regular, ongoing, rigorous checks of ability and suitability to retain their jobs.
As in any profession, EXPERIENCE counts, however this seems not to be recognised by some aviation employers - and some pilots.
How many QC's would agree to work for a customer at articled clerks rates?
What would be the reply of an Orthodontist if you asked him to agree to work for the same money as his dental nurse? "
you!!"?More to the point, what would be Geoff Dixon's respose if you asked HIM to continue, but on an accountant's salary?
The problem today is, it is not PILOTS who are setting the remuneration levels and sticking to them - we are allowing OUTSIDE forces to do that.
Again 1989 (I'll say it), showed that there are pilots who think so little of their peers - and of themselves - that they will undercut/sabotage the mainstream to try to gain an advantage.
How many of you would choose a "cut price" Doctor without wondering WHY he was forced to undercut his peers?
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Now we've all had a good whinge, bitch, vent, I-told-you-so over two fairly predictble page by the usual suspects, what exactly were the concessions NJS pilots offered to make?
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R405. My friend, Kapt M, has succinctly hit the nail on the head. Which fortunately has saved me the pleasure of giving it a serious WHACK!
Fella, there is no real comparison that can be made between each of the professions that you use to illustrate your points.
I have two degrees, am studying for my third, and I can tell you straight up that there is very little harder than a single engine NDB and circling approach with compound emergencies in crap weather with a senior check peering over your shoulder.
Doctors may have similar "pressure" situations, but most other professions have no comparison at all.
R405, your ignorance of this indicates your probable lack of experience and qualifications in flying. That is no worries, everyone starts somewhere and follows their own road. But when you begin to tell highly qualified professional pilots that their job is "easy", well, you must forgive us for just a little indignance.
Have a good day!
Fella, there is no real comparison that can be made between each of the professions that you use to illustrate your points.
I have two degrees, am studying for my third, and I can tell you straight up that there is very little harder than a single engine NDB and circling approach with compound emergencies in crap weather with a senior check peering over your shoulder.
Doctors may have similar "pressure" situations, but most other professions have no comparison at all.
R405, your ignorance of this indicates your probable lack of experience and qualifications in flying. That is no worries, everyone starts somewhere and follows their own road. But when you begin to tell highly qualified professional pilots that their job is "easy", well, you must forgive us for just a little indignance.
Have a good day!
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God damn it Whiskery, OK, a union with balls and boobs. (hang on, every union is full of boobs....
)
Schnauzer said exactly what I was going to, so no further requirements. Resuming own navigation....
Comparing a professional pilot to a doctor or a lawyer is like comparing apples to concrete - not even REMOTELY SIMILAR!
Unless you ARE an airline pilot, chances are you truly do NOT understand. Those that aren't like to try to equate it to other professions, yet nothing even remotely comes close.
Explaining it is futile unless you have done it.
)Schnauzer said exactly what I was going to, so no further requirements. Resuming own navigation....
Comparing a professional pilot to a doctor or a lawyer is like comparing apples to concrete - not even REMOTELY SIMILAR!
Unless you ARE an airline pilot, chances are you truly do NOT understand. Those that aren't like to try to equate it to other professions, yet nothing even remotely comes close.
Explaining it is futile unless you have done it.
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Animalclub...
Absolutely none of the above.
One gets paid what one can negotiate.
If you're not in a good position to negotiate, don't expect to get much. If you're in a good position, you can negotiate a bucket load. Knowing one's position comes easy to some and difficult to others.
Cheers
Does one get paid what the value of the job is to the company
Does one get paid the value of what one thinks of one's self worth
Does one get paid what the company can afford.
One gets paid what one can negotiate.
If you're not in a good position to negotiate, don't expect to get much. If you're in a good position, you can negotiate a bucket load. Knowing one's position comes easy to some and difficult to others.
Cheers
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Lawyers lock up their mistakes.
Doctors bury their mistakes.
I undergo some kind of test every 6 weeks.
Everything I say and do at work is recorded.
A GP friend of mine has to do 1 course per year to stay in the College. He did a CPR refresher last year.
Doctors bury their mistakes.
I undergo some kind of test every 6 weeks.
Everything I say and do at work is recorded.
A GP friend of mine has to do 1 course per year to stay in the College. He did a CPR refresher last year.
Lowdon & AnimalClub
Surely the employer pays only what is necessary to attract and retain the employees it needs.
As always it seems that the supply exceeds the demand - so a pilot's years of training, years of experience, years of being constantly checked carry little weight in the employer's mind when setting pay levels.
Factors that do carry weight are the costs associated with induction of new employees, re-training and maintaining the published schedules and productivity.
Who can argue with an employer who is having to sell for $39 a product which he sold ten years ago for over $250? A $750 Million profit is nice figure - but what is the % return on capital invested?
I think we'll see Airlines paying just enough to retain the Pilots they already have for quite some time in the future. I'd be looking for job security.
Times is tough!
Cheers
Bulolobob
Surely the employer pays only what is necessary to attract and retain the employees it needs.
As always it seems that the supply exceeds the demand - so a pilot's years of training, years of experience, years of being constantly checked carry little weight in the employer's mind when setting pay levels.
Factors that do carry weight are the costs associated with induction of new employees, re-training and maintaining the published schedules and productivity.
Who can argue with an employer who is having to sell for $39 a product which he sold ten years ago for over $250? A $750 Million profit is nice figure - but what is the % return on capital invested?
I think we'll see Airlines paying just enough to retain the Pilots they already have for quite some time in the future. I'd be looking for job security.
Times is tough!
Cheers
Bulolobob
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Having read the various posts debating the apparent easiness vs difficulty of being a pilot when compared to other industry professionals, may I offer the following for us to ponder...
Why do I think pilots should get paid more?
Because when things go bad in the courtroom, the plaintiff or the defendant will suffer much more than the lawyer. The worst-case scenario for the lawyer is that he gets disbarred and cannot practise law. But he still gets to go home and reflect on it.
Because when things go bad in the operating theater, the patient suffers much more than the surgeon. The worst-case scenario for the surgeon is that he gets done for malpractice, and can no longer practise medicine. But he still gets to go home and reflect on it.
Because when things go bad in the cockpit, the lives of the two pilots, nine cabin crew, and the one-hundred and seventy or so passengers ALL hang in the balance. And unfortunately in some cases, no-one gets to go home because the bodies cannot be identified in the wreckage.
Whilst I would never wish this to happen to anyone, I sometimes imagine a scenerio where a planeload of senior airline execs and their beancounters suffer a catastrophic event in flight. It is their lives who are now completely and utterly in the hands of the "cheap labour" up front. And I wonder if, as those frightened execs/beancounters contemplate whether they'll get home to their familes that night, will any of them spare a thought to ask themselves if those two guys are getting paid enough right now?
Why do I think pilots should get paid more?
Because when things go bad in the courtroom, the plaintiff or the defendant will suffer much more than the lawyer. The worst-case scenario for the lawyer is that he gets disbarred and cannot practise law. But he still gets to go home and reflect on it.
Because when things go bad in the operating theater, the patient suffers much more than the surgeon. The worst-case scenario for the surgeon is that he gets done for malpractice, and can no longer practise medicine. But he still gets to go home and reflect on it.
Because when things go bad in the cockpit, the lives of the two pilots, nine cabin crew, and the one-hundred and seventy or so passengers ALL hang in the balance. And unfortunately in some cases, no-one gets to go home because the bodies cannot be identified in the wreckage.
Whilst I would never wish this to happen to anyone, I sometimes imagine a scenerio where a planeload of senior airline execs and their beancounters suffer a catastrophic event in flight. It is their lives who are now completely and utterly in the hands of the "cheap labour" up front. And I wonder if, as those frightened execs/beancounters contemplate whether they'll get home to their familes that night, will any of them spare a thought to ask themselves if those two guys are getting paid enough right now?
Because when things go bad in the cockpit, the lives of the two pilots, nine cabin crew, and the one-hundred and seventy or so passengers ALL hang in the balance. And unfortunately in some cases, no-one gets to go home because the bodies cannot be identified in the wreckage.
Obviously the argument of being 'life and death' decision-makers is not washing it with the public and employers at large. There is a general perception that flying is among the safer forms of travel and yet passengers seem not to be aware they are perilously close to the precipice according the description above.
Although I don't agree with flying/medical/legal professional comparisons anyway, I think that the idea that a surgeon is somehow absolved of the burden of responsibility that pilots must bear because
he still gets to go home and reflect on it
Considering the number of medico's who fly privately themselves, I suspect surgery is closer to being a pilot than many of you think.
Both professions require regular decisions that must be made that cannot and must not be postponed for more than a few seconds.
The rest of us get to scratch our backsides and say "Jeez, I'll have to think about that one for a few minutes", even lawyers.
Frankly, thats the bit about flying that makes it different from anything I have ever done before.
Both professions require regular decisions that must be made that cannot and must not be postponed for more than a few seconds.
The rest of us get to scratch our backsides and say "Jeez, I'll have to think about that one for a few minutes", even lawyers.
Frankly, thats the bit about flying that makes it different from anything I have ever done before.
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Hmmm, this is a interesting thread. I don't normally post but this one...I can see it from a different perspective in that I am a maritime professional with a flying problem.
My industry has been thru a similar stage (although about three hundred years longer) where times were tough, markets were down and employers treated crews like cr@p.
A lot of folks here mentioned how a union could help, others went on to point out how that would never come to pass. I'm here to tell you that it can be done, in fact it has been done. Ever heard of the ITF? If not, take a peak at www.itf.org.uk
You might be surprised to learn that they do represent civil aviation, in fact I think they have some big case on now on behalf of Ryanair workers. I guess its a case of getting a local union together to work as an affilate. You then have GLOBAL leverage.
However, the ITF alone did not make things better for us. This may sound terrible but it was a number of nasty accidents (remember Exxon Valdez? The Erika? The Treasure?) that forced governments, regulatory authorities, insurers, banks, not to mention environmental bodies to act and shipowners were pressured into maintaning top quality sea personel which takes good conditions and dineros. We are under a huge amount of pressure for our actions these days (some of which is fair enough) for eg, there are lots of places where we get locked up for spilling just a tiny amount of fuel or residue etc (I'm talking litres) even if its a mechanical failure beyond our control. A serious case of guilty until proven innocent.
The reason I bring this up is that you folks are under the same sort of pressure albeit in different ways and in my opinion should be rewarded for it. The ITF argued on behalf of seafarers that if the world wanted us poor sods to spend 9 months at sea and be held responsible for everything under the sun to the point where we are jailed for it, then they could sure as hell pay us for it. You're in the same boat (excuse the pun, couldn't resist) and I agree that you need blanket representation.
On the other hand, I do think the aviation industry has some issues to work out within itself first. Forgive this from an outsider looking in but I always get the feeling that you folks are really cut throat and independant of one another in the way you do things. Perhaps circumstances dictate this but we in the maritime biz are so much closer together and supportive of our "brothers in arms". I think this may be half your problem.
Re comments re comparison of proffesions, In my opinion both the aviation and maritime industries have unique characteristics in this regard and can't be compared to others. You have the pressures of passengers, most of us have the pressures of the potential magnitude and consequantial effects of our accidents. To make master (captain) on a medium sized dry cargo vessel (panamax) will take you on average about 15-20 years at sea. You need similar qualities as an airline captain. I think anrguments comparing this and the aviation industry to lawyers, accountants or any other 'warm and fuzzy' occupation are a waste of time.
Of course, all just my opinion.
AD
My industry has been thru a similar stage (although about three hundred years longer) where times were tough, markets were down and employers treated crews like cr@p.
A lot of folks here mentioned how a union could help, others went on to point out how that would never come to pass. I'm here to tell you that it can be done, in fact it has been done. Ever heard of the ITF? If not, take a peak at www.itf.org.uk
You might be surprised to learn that they do represent civil aviation, in fact I think they have some big case on now on behalf of Ryanair workers. I guess its a case of getting a local union together to work as an affilate. You then have GLOBAL leverage.
However, the ITF alone did not make things better for us. This may sound terrible but it was a number of nasty accidents (remember Exxon Valdez? The Erika? The Treasure?) that forced governments, regulatory authorities, insurers, banks, not to mention environmental bodies to act and shipowners were pressured into maintaning top quality sea personel which takes good conditions and dineros. We are under a huge amount of pressure for our actions these days (some of which is fair enough) for eg, there are lots of places where we get locked up for spilling just a tiny amount of fuel or residue etc (I'm talking litres) even if its a mechanical failure beyond our control. A serious case of guilty until proven innocent.
The reason I bring this up is that you folks are under the same sort of pressure albeit in different ways and in my opinion should be rewarded for it. The ITF argued on behalf of seafarers that if the world wanted us poor sods to spend 9 months at sea and be held responsible for everything under the sun to the point where we are jailed for it, then they could sure as hell pay us for it. You're in the same boat (excuse the pun, couldn't resist) and I agree that you need blanket representation.
On the other hand, I do think the aviation industry has some issues to work out within itself first. Forgive this from an outsider looking in but I always get the feeling that you folks are really cut throat and independant of one another in the way you do things. Perhaps circumstances dictate this but we in the maritime biz are so much closer together and supportive of our "brothers in arms". I think this may be half your problem.
Re comments re comparison of proffesions, In my opinion both the aviation and maritime industries have unique characteristics in this regard and can't be compared to others. You have the pressures of passengers, most of us have the pressures of the potential magnitude and consequantial effects of our accidents. To make master (captain) on a medium sized dry cargo vessel (panamax) will take you on average about 15-20 years at sea. You need similar qualities as an airline captain. I think anrguments comparing this and the aviation industry to lawyers, accountants or any other 'warm and fuzzy' occupation are a waste of time.
Of course, all just my opinion.
AD
There is Hope For You Lot Yet....
I saw this post from Mr. Ignition Override" on the "Rumors and News" thread "the demise of the Professional Pilot"
I thought it might be germane to some of your discussions...
Ignition Override
Over 500 posts.
US hub-and-spoke airlines, requiring passengers and crews (sometimes hanging around over two hours) to change planes most of the time, were NEVER designed for high employee productivity. High business fares were apparently the foundation for these wasteful operations. After a 10 or 12-hour duty day with short, intense legs flown requiring three or even four rushed changes of aircraft, we feel very productive and tired, but sometimes have logged only about 6 hours of 'block time'. Frustrating, even IF we had more than five hours of sleep in a hotel.
But upper management wants the public to believe that it is the unions' fault that these inefficient operations were created and are, after decades, the heart and soul of daily business, except at Southwest Airlines.
Southwest's 737 pilots are the highest-paid 737 aviators in the US! Southwest has been HEAVILY UNIONIZED for MANY YEARS.
Don't think so? Just check the history over there.... Higher employee costs have not prevented Southwest's brilliant success. They seem to have almost no hub-and-spoke operations. Productivity and high staff/employee morale seem to be the key elements, concepts which are totally lost on typically indifferent, ungifted airline managements in the US. Some airlines attempt to create the superficial facade of a caring management. Who are they really fooling? Most of these so-called "leaders" have no true background in actual airline operations, and little interest in real aviation, as Howard Hughes, Bob Six, Juan Trippe (?) and Eddie Rickenbacker had long ago. At least Continental Airlines has a leader (Bethune) who earned his pilot ratings and has ferried B-757s from the factory. And American Trans Air was created by a pilot, Mr. Mickelson. Even a beginning as a ramp worker or gate agent (at UPS most have worked their way up from loading packages) would create more insight than what most of today's airline CEOs will ever acquire.
I thought it might be germane to some of your discussions...
Ignition Override
Over 500 posts.
US hub-and-spoke airlines, requiring passengers and crews (sometimes hanging around over two hours) to change planes most of the time, were NEVER designed for high employee productivity. High business fares were apparently the foundation for these wasteful operations. After a 10 or 12-hour duty day with short, intense legs flown requiring three or even four rushed changes of aircraft, we feel very productive and tired, but sometimes have logged only about 6 hours of 'block time'. Frustrating, even IF we had more than five hours of sleep in a hotel.
But upper management wants the public to believe that it is the unions' fault that these inefficient operations were created and are, after decades, the heart and soul of daily business, except at Southwest Airlines.
Southwest's 737 pilots are the highest-paid 737 aviators in the US! Southwest has been HEAVILY UNIONIZED for MANY YEARS.
Don't think so? Just check the history over there.... Higher employee costs have not prevented Southwest's brilliant success. They seem to have almost no hub-and-spoke operations. Productivity and high staff/employee morale seem to be the key elements, concepts which are totally lost on typically indifferent, ungifted airline managements in the US. Some airlines attempt to create the superficial facade of a caring management. Who are they really fooling? Most of these so-called "leaders" have no true background in actual airline operations, and little interest in real aviation, as Howard Hughes, Bob Six, Juan Trippe (?) and Eddie Rickenbacker had long ago. At least Continental Airlines has a leader (Bethune) who earned his pilot ratings and has ferried B-757s from the factory. And American Trans Air was created by a pilot, Mr. Mickelson. Even a beginning as a ramp worker or gate agent (at UPS most have worked their way up from loading packages) would create more insight than what most of today's airline CEOs will ever acquire.