Racing to the bottom.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Lodown,
Its a good question. Complicated answer though. In training levels there is some sim work but its real basic stuff. There are no real "off the showroom floor" ships so its hard to come up with generic models for sims which would 'feel' anything like the real thing but its an ongoing debate.
Marine Pilots (the folks who pilot ships in and out of most ports / canals etc) use sims to practice tight / slow manouvers and emergency recovery manouvers for thier particular local conditions.
Sims are used to test a port or a confined area if there are intentions to push the margins, eg: to find out if 'x' size / type vessel can safely navigate at or thru 'x' location. We would ask a training org to write a sim for the port in question, then introduce the vessel characteristics we need and when its all ready, we'll play with it using different weather / sea conditions to see what works and what doesn't so we can whip up an SOP or use it to convince authourities to let us give it a bash.
Of course, sims are also used to test ship designs and mods.
But as far as jo bloggs the deck officer goes, not much sim time compared to aviation.
Its a good question. Complicated answer though. In training levels there is some sim work but its real basic stuff. There are no real "off the showroom floor" ships so its hard to come up with generic models for sims which would 'feel' anything like the real thing but its an ongoing debate.
Marine Pilots (the folks who pilot ships in and out of most ports / canals etc) use sims to practice tight / slow manouvers and emergency recovery manouvers for thier particular local conditions.
Sims are used to test a port or a confined area if there are intentions to push the margins, eg: to find out if 'x' size / type vessel can safely navigate at or thru 'x' location. We would ask a training org to write a sim for the port in question, then introduce the vessel characteristics we need and when its all ready, we'll play with it using different weather / sea conditions to see what works and what doesn't so we can whip up an SOP or use it to convince authourities to let us give it a bash.
Of course, sims are also used to test ship designs and mods.
But as far as jo bloggs the deck officer goes, not much sim time compared to aviation.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zer Gut Ya?
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DK, much of what you state may be true, but it sure as hell hurts!
I'm convinced now that you aren't WK though. He wouldn't stand a chance in hell of going anywhere near the prom queen!
I'm convinced now that you aren't WK though. He wouldn't stand a chance in hell of going anywhere near the prom queen!
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Unions
I don't know why people think straying from the union line is selfish. A union is just a collective of selfish people. Unions do nothing in the modern era except harm the economy.
The sooner the practice of "compulsory unionism" is totally ended the better we all will be.
A union asking for more wages only prevents other people getting jobs in the same industry.
Everyone complains if a company like the old Telecom has a monopoly and prices it's products accordingly -- Why does no-one have a problem with a union having a monopoly on labour and pricing wages monopolistically.
Unions..
The sooner the practice of "compulsory unionism" is totally ended the better we all will be.
A union asking for more wages only prevents other people getting jobs in the same industry.
Everyone complains if a company like the old Telecom has a monopoly and prices it's products accordingly -- Why does no-one have a problem with a union having a monopoly on labour and pricing wages monopolistically.
Unions..
Join Date: Jan 2003
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After 5 pages of this drivel, I still haven't found anyone who can tell us what exactly were the concessions that NJS pilots had to make.
If there were any.
Okay kiddies back to the bitching and whinging.
If there were any.
Okay kiddies back to the bitching and whinging.
Bottums Up
Sleuth,
If we took your advice then QF would in all probability announce that they were unable to finalise terms with NJS and that Jetstar was now the preferred tendered, subject to the successful negotiation of operating conditions.
Besides, there was no pressure from the company.
If we took your advice then QF would in all probability announce that they were unable to finalise terms with NJS and that Jetstar was now the preferred tendered, subject to the successful negotiation of operating conditions.
Besides, there was no pressure from the company.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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We are all at the cross roads of where our profession is heading! Anyone with any small amount of intuition, forsight or business accumen can clearly see that unless some of the serious issues that will effect the future of our careers are tackeled now, and with a united force (let the barage of quotes begin, " It's been tried before and failed, look at 89", " Everyones looking out for themselves", " Lets compare surgins, lawyers etc etc") its time we forgot all this crap and looked inwards towards each other and ourselves and really grew some backbone and gained some sence of pride in ourselves and each other.
Lets not just sit hear and complain about what our management are trying to do to our profession and let it happen right in front of our eyes, lets be pro-active instead of being just a reactionary group of professionals, what should be happening when one group of pilots from company XYZ are about to BOHICA (Bend Over Here It Comes Again), pilots from other companies should forget all their narrow minded self serving commitments and stand together as a group of professionals willing to uphold the very institutions and ethics of professionalism we display everyday online in the cockpit.
History has proven that the current form of representation we have is not working. Our representatives in my small and meaningless opinion are very similar to all of us who are only there to serve their best interests (and preserve their B727 check Captains pay etc etc.) at the expence of our conditions and professionalism. Its also been proven that our comments, arguments, suggestions seem to always pass unheeded, especially when EBA negotiations are underway. And why may you all ask does this happen time and time again, its because firstly we let this happen, secondly our best interests are not acted upon, and thirdly the ties between our representatives and our managements is too cosy for our liking.
You may all ask the question how do we rectify this problem?
Firstly we gain some moral fibre and sence of pride in ourseleves and gain some upper hand in stopping our management from down grading, or should I say down playing our professionalism, (I bet if GD or BG or the general public were sitting in seat A or B, and the number 1 engine is on fire, would they be thinking about shareholders expectations, yields, squeezing the last possible cent out of every possible department, of course not, they would be thinking I hope the people at the pointy end dont f#%^ this up).
I pose the question of starting a unified group of the whole collective pilot body in this country that uses independant, highly qualified industrial/law experts that are total untouchable in regards to the above comments, that once their tasks are completed they move on (their contract finishes) and our current represention is used as a policing tool in regards to the finalised agreements.
Do any of my fellow professionals agree?
How do we go about doing this?
Will any common sence prevail?
Lets not just sit hear and complain about what our management are trying to do to our profession and let it happen right in front of our eyes, lets be pro-active instead of being just a reactionary group of professionals, what should be happening when one group of pilots from company XYZ are about to BOHICA (Bend Over Here It Comes Again), pilots from other companies should forget all their narrow minded self serving commitments and stand together as a group of professionals willing to uphold the very institutions and ethics of professionalism we display everyday online in the cockpit.
History has proven that the current form of representation we have is not working. Our representatives in my small and meaningless opinion are very similar to all of us who are only there to serve their best interests (and preserve their B727 check Captains pay etc etc.) at the expence of our conditions and professionalism. Its also been proven that our comments, arguments, suggestions seem to always pass unheeded, especially when EBA negotiations are underway. And why may you all ask does this happen time and time again, its because firstly we let this happen, secondly our best interests are not acted upon, and thirdly the ties between our representatives and our managements is too cosy for our liking.
You may all ask the question how do we rectify this problem?
Firstly we gain some moral fibre and sence of pride in ourseleves and gain some upper hand in stopping our management from down grading, or should I say down playing our professionalism, (I bet if GD or BG or the general public were sitting in seat A or B, and the number 1 engine is on fire, would they be thinking about shareholders expectations, yields, squeezing the last possible cent out of every possible department, of course not, they would be thinking I hope the people at the pointy end dont f#%^ this up).
I pose the question of starting a unified group of the whole collective pilot body in this country that uses independant, highly qualified industrial/law experts that are total untouchable in regards to the above comments, that once their tasks are completed they move on (their contract finishes) and our current represention is used as a policing tool in regards to the finalised agreements.
Do any of my fellow professionals agree?
How do we go about doing this?
Will any common sence prevail?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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bet if GD or BG or the general public were sitting in seat A or B, and the number 1 engine is on fire, would they be thinking about shareholders expectations, yields, squeezing the last possible cent out of every possible department, of course not, they would be thinking I hope the people at the pointy end dont f#%^ this up).
"Tell 'im he's drreeeamen"
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Conflict of Interest
The moment you become a management pilot your membership of the AIPA should be supended until such time arises when you return to the ranks.During this time the AIPA offers no representation and you do not receive any information whatsoever.Your web access(AIPA) is also suspended.
issues that will effect
tackeled now
Lets compare surgins
sence of pride
Will any common sence prevail?
sence of pride in ourseleves
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What Icarus is trying to say, dd, is that your arguments might carry more weight if you were to make use of your computer's spell checker before hitting the 'send' button. I know the marks you got in English Expression have absolutely no bearing on how you fly an aeroplane, but the fact remains, if you’re claiming ‘professional’ status, correct spelling does aid your argument, if not in all, then certainly in many people’s eyes.
I’m afraid I’m here to kick you while you’re down. You say
I’m afraid that crossroads was reached 15 years ago, when a minority of Australian pilots, but unfortunately a large enough minority, made a fateful decision that has affected everyone in the industry in the years since.
Spelling mistakes notwithstanding, I genuinely applaud your sentiments and wish you well at the crossroads you and your colleagues finds yourselves today. It is possible that the enormous damage that was started by the ‘heroes’ of 1989 can be undone, but as someone has said before me, it’s going to take a leader – and an overwhelming majority of what I’ll very inaccurately call ordinary pilots – with tremendous nerve and courage to achieve it.
Don’t for one moment think that the hurdles you will have to face are any steeper than were those faced by the pilots who established ALPA back in the 1920’s and 30’s. I urge you to read ‘Flying the Line’, the story of the establishment of US ALPA. The bastardry practised by the management (and their all too willing ‘hero’ helpers within the pilot ranks) of those times was every bit as nasty as anything management of today have thrown our way.
I’m afraid I’m here to kick you while you’re down. You say
We are all at the cross roads of where our profession is heading!
Spelling mistakes notwithstanding, I genuinely applaud your sentiments and wish you well at the crossroads you and your colleagues finds yourselves today. It is possible that the enormous damage that was started by the ‘heroes’ of 1989 can be undone, but as someone has said before me, it’s going to take a leader – and an overwhelming majority of what I’ll very inaccurately call ordinary pilots – with tremendous nerve and courage to achieve it.
Don’t for one moment think that the hurdles you will have to face are any steeper than were those faced by the pilots who established ALPA back in the 1920’s and 30’s. I urge you to read ‘Flying the Line’, the story of the establishment of US ALPA. The bastardry practised by the management (and their all too willing ‘hero’ helpers within the pilot ranks) of those times was every bit as nasty as anything management of today have thrown our way.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Dirty Deeds
I'm not a pilot, and I'm not a stirrer (well, not always).
If it was possible to get all pilots into one union, as you wish, how does the union negotiate pay and conditions for different airlines/aircraft operators? All just can't afford wages and conditions that, say, QF grant.
Could, say, QF state to the union that pay and conditions for XYZ operator which operates similar or same equipment is so much - so why should we pay more?
Please understand that I use QF only as an example as, from reading these message boards, they appear to pay the highest wages and give the most generous conditions.
Would it be better to get the total workforce of each different airline in the same union to do the bargaining/negotiations rather than many different unions pulling in different directions?
I don't know.
I'm not a pilot, and I'm not a stirrer (well, not always).
If it was possible to get all pilots into one union, as you wish, how does the union negotiate pay and conditions for different airlines/aircraft operators? All just can't afford wages and conditions that, say, QF grant.
Could, say, QF state to the union that pay and conditions for XYZ operator which operates similar or same equipment is so much - so why should we pay more?
Please understand that I use QF only as an example as, from reading these message boards, they appear to pay the highest wages and give the most generous conditions.
Would it be better to get the total workforce of each different airline in the same union to do the bargaining/negotiations rather than many different unions pulling in different directions?
I don't know.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Andu and Icarus2001
Thanks for letting me know how intelligent and smart you both are. You have just proven the point I was trying to make in my discussion. I hope you guys never have to a make a decision that will effect your lives, cause I think I know which side of the fence you would propably sit on.
Have a great Day!
Thanks for letting me know how intelligent and smart you both are. You have just proven the point I was trying to make in my discussion. I hope you guys never have to a make a decision that will effect your lives, cause I think I know which side of the fence you would propably sit on.
Have a great Day!
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Peace Accord
Well so much for that attempt at accord.There will never be peace on earth and Airline Companies are well aware of this .Give it another 5 years and you will be receiving the same renumeration as a train driver.
Guess who will be to blame???
Guess who will be to blame???
Join Date: Jun 2001
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'dirty deeds', if you were as quick to take good advice as you are to bite back at what to me looked like pretty fair comments from 'Icarus2001' and 'Andu', you might get somewhere in your quest to be treated as a professional.
From where I sit, 'Icarus2001' was spot on in pointing out your many typos, and 'Andu' was only answering the question you yourself asked before going on to wish you well - and you bite his **** head off.
I'm afraid the last poster is also right in his conclusions.
From where I sit, 'Icarus2001' was spot on in pointing out your many typos, and 'Andu' was only answering the question you yourself asked before going on to wish you well - and you bite his **** head off.
I'm afraid the last poster is also right in his conclusions.
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I was reading some stuff on Brig. Gen Charles "Chuck" Yeager - there is a man that has done an enormous amount for aviation, who until his retirement at age 80, earned a simple service income. He said the secret to a happy life was to work where you want to work, and live within your means.
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Dirty Deeds,
I started a post called "what happens next time??" about five days again that said much the same thing as you have said, (namely be proactive and have a common union). It had 5 replies and the thread then died.
Those that did reply said basically that I was too idealistic and that it would never happen because pilots are all too selfish. To me, it seems that most pilots on this forum are happy to see all the white-anting and back-dooring going on as long as it is to their betterment.
So maybe those replies are right. Pilots are too selfish and therefore we deserve what we get, and management will laugh all the way to the bank with their bonuses that we earned for them and subsidised through our reduced conditions.
In line with the spirit exhibited by most members of this board, I will be fighting to keep what I have. Watch for the next QF EBA though - if ever one was going to be voted down it will be this one.
To Animalclub, as I recall, both sides (TAA and Ansett) were represented by the AFAP prior to 1989, so there is a precedent.
I started a post called "what happens next time??" about five days again that said much the same thing as you have said, (namely be proactive and have a common union). It had 5 replies and the thread then died.
Those that did reply said basically that I was too idealistic and that it would never happen because pilots are all too selfish. To me, it seems that most pilots on this forum are happy to see all the white-anting and back-dooring going on as long as it is to their betterment.
So maybe those replies are right. Pilots are too selfish and therefore we deserve what we get, and management will laugh all the way to the bank with their bonuses that we earned for them and subsidised through our reduced conditions.
In line with the spirit exhibited by most members of this board, I will be fighting to keep what I have. Watch for the next QF EBA though - if ever one was going to be voted down it will be this one.
To Animalclub, as I recall, both sides (TAA and Ansett) were represented by the AFAP prior to 1989, so there is a precedent.