Racing to the bottom.
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Three Bars
I think you're correct regarding AN and TN, but weren't they paying similar wages and granting similar conditions?
I was thinking along the lines that it could be difficult (I didn't say impossible) if one union represented say Virgin AND QF shorthaul pilots...(hey, they may do now, for all I know) arguing for differing wages/conditions when pilots fly similar equipment.
On the other hand is that what pilots want?
I think you're correct regarding AN and TN, but weren't they paying similar wages and granting similar conditions?
I was thinking along the lines that it could be difficult (I didn't say impossible) if one union represented say Virgin AND QF shorthaul pilots...(hey, they may do now, for all I know) arguing for differing wages/conditions when pilots fly similar equipment.
On the other hand is that what pilots want?
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pilots salaries
Back in the days when ships were wood and men were steel,
Air Traffic Controllers had their pay based on the salary of the FO of a DC9.
So, my question is...do FO's now get about 120K per year? And if they do, what do the captains now get?
Similarly, do you think that ATC's are overpaid?
Air Traffic Controllers had their pay based on the salary of the FO of a DC9.
So, my question is...do FO's now get about 120K per year? And if they do, what do the captains now get?
Similarly, do you think that ATC's are overpaid?
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In my opinion this long, slow race to the bottom will shortly be replaced by a very sharp, quick sprint to the top.
The industry is changing rapidly and as employers exploit pilots, we as a group become downcast as real wages initially decline and paying for endorsements becomes standard. This has two effects - first, it makes airlines more efficient, and second, it makes the industry less attractive to prospective pilots.
More efficient industries mean more growth. No industry was more in need of change than the airline industry, and the efficiencies being created are leading to massive worldwide growth. Essentially this means more aircraft, and obviously more pilots. This growth will be more resistant to cyclic downturns for the simple reason that it is more flexible and more efficient.
At the same time management screw pilots in the short term because there is still fat out there from the historically inefficient legacy carriers, but this can only last for so long. With less pilots coming in (and why would you start now), there will be a MASSIVE shortfall of pilots within 5 years.
A common theme amongst the new players is they have plans for very fast growth, which means they require experienced operators, and the supply is becoming quite thin on the ground.
If you don't believe me look around you. China, Japan, and Singapore are desperate for expat pilots and will be so for at least the next decade - it takes a long time for a cadet to reach Captain. In India there have been several press reports in the past couple of weeks highlighting the dire plight of the newly deregulated industry's growth prospects due to the lack of experienced pilots, and all carriers including the state owned dinosaurs have indicated a requirement for foreigners. A320 pilots in Singapore have just had a significant pay rise. Virgin Blue have instituted a significant rise in the form of their "retention allowance", so disguised so the rest of the company don't object to percentage increases greater than the standard 3%. Jetconnect have lost 10 percent of their pilot body in the last 3 months, and this despite a significant base payrise, a retention allowance, and the inclusion of overtime over 65 hours. There is no jet experience left in NZ and all their new FO's have no jet time and can't take commands for at least a couple of years. Its not as if they can call upon the airforce any more! They are now looking at direct entry captains, but who knows where they'll come from? The net 737 FO package, even if you make adjustments for currency and super, is only about 10K less than I get as a 767 FO in Australia (Ive don the sums, don't make me print them). The major factor in this is the lower tax rates.
So I say to the NJS guys, you only have to cop the crap if you are adamant you want to stay where you are. Settled with a wife, kids in school etc, all valid reasons. But if not, don't cop it. Don't bother paying for a dead end 717 endorsement. You may as well spend the same money on a 737 or A320 qualification and get a job with ongoing employment prospects. Look around you and see whats on offer. The structure and conditions are different to old style carriers, but the money is really not so bad if you're prepared to work. You can then screw the same shortsighted management types that are now screwing you on the basis they think pilots are a dime a dozen. That may be true on the surface, but EXPERIENCED pilots are nowhere to be found. Take charge of your own destiny. There is so much more out there.
FT
The industry is changing rapidly and as employers exploit pilots, we as a group become downcast as real wages initially decline and paying for endorsements becomes standard. This has two effects - first, it makes airlines more efficient, and second, it makes the industry less attractive to prospective pilots.
More efficient industries mean more growth. No industry was more in need of change than the airline industry, and the efficiencies being created are leading to massive worldwide growth. Essentially this means more aircraft, and obviously more pilots. This growth will be more resistant to cyclic downturns for the simple reason that it is more flexible and more efficient.
At the same time management screw pilots in the short term because there is still fat out there from the historically inefficient legacy carriers, but this can only last for so long. With less pilots coming in (and why would you start now), there will be a MASSIVE shortfall of pilots within 5 years.
A common theme amongst the new players is they have plans for very fast growth, which means they require experienced operators, and the supply is becoming quite thin on the ground.
If you don't believe me look around you. China, Japan, and Singapore are desperate for expat pilots and will be so for at least the next decade - it takes a long time for a cadet to reach Captain. In India there have been several press reports in the past couple of weeks highlighting the dire plight of the newly deregulated industry's growth prospects due to the lack of experienced pilots, and all carriers including the state owned dinosaurs have indicated a requirement for foreigners. A320 pilots in Singapore have just had a significant pay rise. Virgin Blue have instituted a significant rise in the form of their "retention allowance", so disguised so the rest of the company don't object to percentage increases greater than the standard 3%. Jetconnect have lost 10 percent of their pilot body in the last 3 months, and this despite a significant base payrise, a retention allowance, and the inclusion of overtime over 65 hours. There is no jet experience left in NZ and all their new FO's have no jet time and can't take commands for at least a couple of years. Its not as if they can call upon the airforce any more! They are now looking at direct entry captains, but who knows where they'll come from? The net 737 FO package, even if you make adjustments for currency and super, is only about 10K less than I get as a 767 FO in Australia (Ive don the sums, don't make me print them). The major factor in this is the lower tax rates.
So I say to the NJS guys, you only have to cop the crap if you are adamant you want to stay where you are. Settled with a wife, kids in school etc, all valid reasons. But if not, don't cop it. Don't bother paying for a dead end 717 endorsement. You may as well spend the same money on a 737 or A320 qualification and get a job with ongoing employment prospects. Look around you and see whats on offer. The structure and conditions are different to old style carriers, but the money is really not so bad if you're prepared to work. You can then screw the same shortsighted management types that are now screwing you on the basis they think pilots are a dime a dozen. That may be true on the surface, but EXPERIENCED pilots are nowhere to be found. Take charge of your own destiny. There is so much more out there.
FT
Last edited by Flying Tiger; 23rd Feb 2005 at 07:19.
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Flying just isn't that hard compared to other professions
If that's true, why do so many doctors make absolutely TRAGIC private pilots??
Eventually conditions will reach the point where guys would rather crop-dust, for a little less. Then they can palm off airline-flying to the train-drivers' union and morons like the above-quoted will finally be happy.
Sorry to hear you didn't make it in aviation, R405
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I know plenty of doctors that do a great job of flying an aeroplane too, it's just that the thinking processes are completely different. If they get the right guidance as students and are kept humble, there's not a problem with the outcome, much like celebrities.
Flying Tiger
Your solutions do appear somewhat flawed. You insist that an individual already employed and settled shouldn't pay for an endorsement, then insist he go out and buy another one?!
I say that you should all stop paying for bloody jobs-period!
Flying Tiger
Your solutions do appear somewhat flawed. You insist that an individual already employed and settled shouldn't pay for an endorsement, then insist he go out and buy another one?!
I say that you should all stop paying for bloody jobs-period!
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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Three Bars; Re your post above which referred to the earlier thread you started; Sorry if my reply in that thread gave you the impression that I considered you too idealistic. My intent was far from that! I do hold the opinion that some pilots are too selfish for their own good, however I do hope that eventually the profession as a whole will wake up before it's too late and preferably unite under one banner.
The various managements of various airlines must be rubbing their hands together with glee at the fragmentation and infighting that is going on currently within the pilot fraternity, for they realise the truth in the old saying that disunity is death.
The big question is, do we?
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
The various managements of various airlines must be rubbing their hands together with glee at the fragmentation and infighting that is going on currently within the pilot fraternity, for they realise the truth in the old saying that disunity is death.
The big question is, do we?
You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
I'm in agreement with Flying Tiger on most of his points.
Management have been very short-sighted, and overly aggressive during the past decade or so, and the chickens are now coming home to roost - to the detriment of those managers.
In those companies where the pilots have been "abused", there is no longer the company "spirit" that existed in many airlines, prior to these attacks on our conditions.
It was almost as if pilots were being PUNISHED for being pilots, and for the inefficiency of the schedulers who roster us.
Items that cost the company absolutely ZERO - such as upgradeable travel on space available - were taken away, along with the salary and allowance reductions.
Company loyalty has been beaten out of us, together with most other staff members.
"Loyalty" now goes to the highest bidder!
Staff have become a commodity now, whereas before they were an ASSET.
SAFETY is just a buzz word with modern management - a word that they believe they can throw around on the odd occasion to keep the regulators happy, whilst preparing schedules that do not take into account start/finish times.
These rosters would probably work okay for the 9-5'ers doing the rostering - people who have a regular sleep pattern, sleeping in the same familiar surrounds each night - and working at normal O2 levels, getting up and leaving their desk to make a trip to the toilet, or to grab a cup of water/tea/coffee, when they want to.
NONE of these factors leading to crew fatigue are a consideration in crew scheduling.
And so, along with the obvious cost cutting, I believe SAFETY has also been reduced under this New Age management.
Pilots have had a lot taken away from them - there is a lot to regain, before we get back to where we were a decade ago.
It's now a case of whichever company is willing to offer the BEST package that will determine how well those companies are able to meet their future growth requirements to make bigger profits, through aircraft crewing requirements, whilst the others downsize, or disappear completely!
Imo, the pilot workforce has never been as "mobile" as it is today - many pilots are now willing to move from one country to another, for enhanced employment opportunities.
Management have been very short-sighted, and overly aggressive during the past decade or so, and the chickens are now coming home to roost - to the detriment of those managers.
In those companies where the pilots have been "abused", there is no longer the company "spirit" that existed in many airlines, prior to these attacks on our conditions.
It was almost as if pilots were being PUNISHED for being pilots, and for the inefficiency of the schedulers who roster us.
Items that cost the company absolutely ZERO - such as upgradeable travel on space available - were taken away, along with the salary and allowance reductions.
Company loyalty has been beaten out of us, together with most other staff members.
"Loyalty" now goes to the highest bidder!
Staff have become a commodity now, whereas before they were an ASSET.
SAFETY is just a buzz word with modern management - a word that they believe they can throw around on the odd occasion to keep the regulators happy, whilst preparing schedules that do not take into account start/finish times.
These rosters would probably work okay for the 9-5'ers doing the rostering - people who have a regular sleep pattern, sleeping in the same familiar surrounds each night - and working at normal O2 levels, getting up and leaving their desk to make a trip to the toilet, or to grab a cup of water/tea/coffee, when they want to.
NONE of these factors leading to crew fatigue are a consideration in crew scheduling.
And so, along with the obvious cost cutting, I believe SAFETY has also been reduced under this New Age management.
Pilots have had a lot taken away from them - there is a lot to regain, before we get back to where we were a decade ago.
It's now a case of whichever company is willing to offer the BEST package that will determine how well those companies are able to meet their future growth requirements to make bigger profits, through aircraft crewing requirements, whilst the others downsize, or disappear completely!
Imo, the pilot workforce has never been as "mobile" as it is today - many pilots are now willing to move from one country to another, for enhanced employment opportunities.
I have a sneaking suspicion that QF's profits aree coming from winding back "provisions" ie provisions for annual leave, sick leave, long service leave and so on.
Your senior cabin staff are being forced to take leave because the provision has to increased every time they get a pay rise. The less leave "overhang", the less the increase in the provision.
Of course if pilots and others resign in frustration and are replaced with people on "new" (lesser) awards then the provisions can be reduced yet again. The reduction of course goes straight to the bottom line as profit.
Translation : They don't want you. You cost too much.
I'd check the super funds as well. They are frequently used as a hollow log.
Your senior cabin staff are being forced to take leave because the provision has to increased every time they get a pay rise. The less leave "overhang", the less the increase in the provision.
Of course if pilots and others resign in frustration and are replaced with people on "new" (lesser) awards then the provisions can be reduced yet again. The reduction of course goes straight to the bottom line as profit.
Translation : They don't want you. You cost too much.
I'd check the super funds as well. They are frequently used as a hollow log.
Last edited by Sunfish; 24th Feb 2005 at 00:06.
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Burn, baby, burn..
I would say that it is time to get fifth column. NOW! The whole industry in Oz is going right down the toilet unless you people stop wring your limp-wristed little hands and GO ON STRIKE!
For the National jet boys: Do not fork over any money for you B717 training. The company is now committed to service the contract. Use this to your advantage to screw the bastards over. Get some GOOD advice on the tort position so as you aren't liable. I would say that there is NO requirement in the Workplace Relations Act that says that you have to pay for your training. To do so is unreasonable and you will almost certainly be able to argue the point! Take them on in court and SET A F#&ING PRECEDENT!!! Even AIPA could join forces or provide assistance as it is just a matter of time before it will be a requirement the the pilot pays for upgrade training at QF!
Or do nothing and get screwed. Up to you, really. Good luck.
For the National jet boys: Do not fork over any money for you B717 training. The company is now committed to service the contract. Use this to your advantage to screw the bastards over. Get some GOOD advice on the tort position so as you aren't liable. I would say that there is NO requirement in the Workplace Relations Act that says that you have to pay for your training. To do so is unreasonable and you will almost certainly be able to argue the point! Take them on in court and SET A F#&ING PRECEDENT!!! Even AIPA could join forces or provide assistance as it is just a matter of time before it will be a requirement the the pilot pays for upgrade training at QF!
Or do nothing and get screwed. Up to you, really. Good luck.
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FYI....
News online
First step to victory for Ryanair pilots
3 February 2005
Irish pilots employed by low-cost anti-union airline Ryanair have won the first part of a court battle with the airline, securing a guaranteed investigation into their complaints against the company.
Ryanair pilots, supported by the Irish Airline Pilots Union (IALPA) - part of the Irish Municipal, Public and Civil Trade Union (IMPACT)- were complaining about victimisation after the company employed bullying tactics against them. These included being forced to pay 15,000 euros for training to fly new aircraft; if they refused, they faced the sack.
The Irish labour court, unconvinced that Ryanair’s employee representative committees constituted independent bargaining forums, highlighted “the need for new measures to afford additional support to employees where there are no arrangements for independent negotiation on pay and conditions.”
The court’s ruling on 25 January means that the IALPA/IMPACT claim that Ryanair pilots should be given a copy of their terms and conditions of employment may be given a hearing. The complaint regarding victimisation in the workplace may also now be heard by an Irish Rights’ Commissioner.
Ingo Marowsky, ITF Civil Aviation Secretary commented, “In its support for its IALPA division, IMPACT strives to provide employees in Ryanair with a collective voice as well as give them their pride back. This is a breakthrough for the Irish pilots, and we have congratulated the union wholeheartedly on behalf of our affiliates.”
First step to victory for Ryanair pilots
3 February 2005
Irish pilots employed by low-cost anti-union airline Ryanair have won the first part of a court battle with the airline, securing a guaranteed investigation into their complaints against the company.
Ryanair pilots, supported by the Irish Airline Pilots Union (IALPA) - part of the Irish Municipal, Public and Civil Trade Union (IMPACT)- were complaining about victimisation after the company employed bullying tactics against them. These included being forced to pay 15,000 euros for training to fly new aircraft; if they refused, they faced the sack.
The Irish labour court, unconvinced that Ryanair’s employee representative committees constituted independent bargaining forums, highlighted “the need for new measures to afford additional support to employees where there are no arrangements for independent negotiation on pay and conditions.”
The court’s ruling on 25 January means that the IALPA/IMPACT claim that Ryanair pilots should be given a copy of their terms and conditions of employment may be given a hearing. The complaint regarding victimisation in the workplace may also now be heard by an Irish Rights’ Commissioner.
Ingo Marowsky, ITF Civil Aviation Secretary commented, “In its support for its IALPA division, IMPACT strives to provide employees in Ryanair with a collective voice as well as give them their pride back. This is a breakthrough for the Irish pilots, and we have congratulated the union wholeheartedly on behalf of our affiliates.”
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Unfortunately ladies and gentlemen, we suffer one major disadvantage compared to all other professions - we love what we do. All we desire is to fly. This presents quite a disadvantage when we want to negotiate a remuneration package.
Monkeys can fly but only aviators take it as a profession.
In reality most of us would do it for free, but we want to be paid a good wage. It's not easy to see the solution.
We ahve to risk what we love to get what we want.
Monkeys can fly but only aviators take it as a profession.
In reality most of us would do it for free, but we want to be paid a good wage. It's not easy to see the solution.
We ahve to risk what we love to get what we want.
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Strike
The whole industry in Oz is going right down the toilet unless you people stop wring your limp-wristed little hands and GO ON STRIKE
Ever heard the saying don't bite the hand that feeds you? Well, no-one will ever get me to strike and I don't care what you label me. Striking is selfish.
It's not like you're a POW asking to get at least one meal a day.
If you don't like the pay / conditions, go to your boss and ask for more money . YOU ASK. If he says no, you can quit. simple.
unions.
Bottums Up
Ralph,
Don't give up your day job to become an IR advocate.
NJS is "preferred tenderer subject to satisfactory negotiation of the operating agreement".
I can imagne how satisfactorally the negotiations will go if NJS goes back to Qantas and says, forget about our bid here's a new one!
Don't give up your day job to become an IR advocate.
NJS is "preferred tenderer subject to satisfactory negotiation of the operating agreement".
I can imagne how satisfactorally the negotiations will go if NJS goes back to Qantas and says, forget about our bid here's a new one!
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Smash the corporate state now.
Pass-a frozo..
Don't worry, I am going to heap invective upon you. You seem a little too delicate.
"Striking is selfish" Wow. What a good little boyscout you are. I bet the boss and the shareholders just LoVe you
.
Ever heard the saying "If you cannot bite the arse that sh!ts on you, then kiss it"? 'Seems more applicable in this case.
I can just see you asking for a rise (cap in hand) the boss saying "NO!!" then you appologising and asking if he asking if he would like you to get him a cup of tea or something.. (Oh .. um ..sorry...um can I get you a cuppa..'mate'..haha...would you like to me to bend over and assume the position again, boss?
)
If you think that the only options after being knocked back for a pay rise are either staying or quitting then you have VERY limited powers of intellect.
Clarrie, I can under stand your problem now if the contract has not been signed, You beef is with your employer who has said basically "sign or else". Well, are you going to be stood over all of your life? (Just thought of that line from the movie 'Mad Max': "Any...thing... you say.. what a great philosopy of life") What they have presented the pilot body at NJS is amoral.
What is being put to you is that
you are now required to subsidize their business. They are telling you that you must dig into your personal wealth to pay for the business to operate. If this is going to happen, then at least require that you become a shareholder with all commensurate rights. You have them by the balls by the sound of things. If they lose the QF contract, they go broke. Its a booming market for pilots out there, mate. You'll get another job.
Remember the building indusrty tactic of the concrete pour: wait under the pour is half way through, then down tools. So, you should give consideration to waiting until the contract has been signed and then put the screws into NJS. They will then be under pressure to provide the service to QF. Like I said GET LEGAL ADVICE AND GET HELP FROM OTHER STAKEHOLDERS. Good luck.
Don't worry, I am going to heap invective upon you. You seem a little too delicate.
"Striking is selfish" Wow. What a good little boyscout you are. I bet the boss and the shareholders just LoVe you
.Ever heard the saying "If you cannot bite the arse that sh!ts on you, then kiss it"? 'Seems more applicable in this case.
I can just see you asking for a rise (cap in hand) the boss saying "NO!!" then you appologising and asking if he asking if he would like you to get him a cup of tea or something.. (Oh .. um ..sorry...um can I get you a cuppa..'mate'..haha...would you like to me to bend over and assume the position again, boss?
)If you think that the only options after being knocked back for a pay rise are either staying or quitting then you have VERY limited powers of intellect.
Clarrie, I can under stand your problem now if the contract has not been signed, You beef is with your employer who has said basically "sign or else". Well, are you going to be stood over all of your life? (Just thought of that line from the movie 'Mad Max': "Any...thing... you say.. what a great philosopy of life") What they have presented the pilot body at NJS is amoral.
What is being put to you is that
you are now required to subsidize their business. They are telling you that you must dig into your personal wealth to pay for the business to operate. If this is going to happen, then at least require that you become a shareholder with all commensurate rights. You have them by the balls by the sound of things. If they lose the QF contract, they go broke. Its a booming market for pilots out there, mate. You'll get another job.
Remember the building indusrty tactic of the concrete pour: wait under the pour is half way through, then down tools. So, you should give consideration to waiting until the contract has been signed and then put the screws into NJS. They will then be under pressure to provide the service to QF. Like I said GET LEGAL ADVICE AND GET HELP FROM OTHER STAKEHOLDERS. Good luck.
Bottums Up
Ralph,
You speak of things you don't know.
At no time has the company said "sign or else", either to me or to my knowlege, to any one.
It was a competitive tender. The tender was based on agreed conditions. Had the tendered bottom line been higher than it was then perhaps instead of continued employment, many of us would be looking at a bleak future.
Perhaps not.
We'll probably never really know the full details.
You speak of things you don't know.
At no time has the company said "sign or else", either to me or to my knowlege, to any one.
It was a competitive tender. The tender was based on agreed conditions. Had the tendered bottom line been higher than it was then perhaps instead of continued employment, many of us would be looking at a bleak future.
Perhaps not.
We'll probably never really know the full details.
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Today's pigs are tomorrows' bacon.
Clarrie,
I know that NJS has said to you that they have sought to tender at the lowest price. As part of the low price, the cost of training on the B717 has been passed onto you. They have either said or implied that you continued employment is contingent upon the pilot group asceeding to this request/demand. This sounds like an 'Or Else...' to me.
I know that NJS has said to you that they have sought to tender at the lowest price. As part of the low price, the cost of training on the B717 has been passed onto you. They have either said or implied that you continued employment is contingent upon the pilot group asceeding to this request/demand. This sounds like an 'Or Else...' to me.
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Ralph,
You're right. There is another option. You could found an economic system where people are paid what their skill set is worth, and pay levels are set by a central body. Oh, that's right ... there is one already.. it's called Communism. Shame the USSR collapsed, you could be booking you're airfare to the Union right now..
Unions have a dead weight loss on the economy. If you want to argue they result in positive outcomes, read up on Monopsonies (in relation to the demand for labour). I may agree with you in that circumstance.
As for your comments of the "shareholders" or "boss's" loving me, well you're probably right. Got a problem with that? Become a shareholder, go to the QANTAS annual general meeting and argue that the company should try to increase the cost base.
Anyway, keep trying to push costs up by demanding you get paid more than you're worth to the company - I'm sure you'll be the first one in tears on the news when you've lost you're job because the company moves jobs offshore or goes out of business because it can't compete. I'm off to make the boss a coffee
You're right. There is another option. You could found an economic system where people are paid what their skill set is worth, and pay levels are set by a central body. Oh, that's right ... there is one already.. it's called Communism. Shame the USSR collapsed, you could be booking you're airfare to the Union right now..
Unions have a dead weight loss on the economy. If you want to argue they result in positive outcomes, read up on Monopsonies (in relation to the demand for labour). I may agree with you in that circumstance.
As for your comments of the "shareholders" or "boss's" loving me, well you're probably right. Got a problem with that? Become a shareholder, go to the QANTAS annual general meeting and argue that the company should try to increase the cost base.
Anyway, keep trying to push costs up by demanding you get paid more than you're worth to the company - I'm sure you'll be the first one in tears on the news when you've lost you're job because the company moves jobs offshore or goes out of business because it can't compete. I'm off to make the boss a coffee
Last edited by Pass-A-Frozo; 27th Feb 2005 at 19:19.
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Bottom-bounce
Some of you guys really have missed the point here. We are at the bottom and from here on in it is about how low the water level can go.
Any form of endorsement training is employment related, otherwise why would you go through the drama of a command type rating on a transport category aircraft, for fun! So the employer requires that skill not the industry just that employer, that makes it their operating cost, not yours or mine. Once an industry standard there is no going back, so the offload of that cost to you the employee is complete, when and how it works through mainline QF is anybodies guess, but it will, QF is the standout now not the rest.
This is all not such a bad thing, if you fund the qualification, you own the skill, so its transferrable to other markets like overseas operators. The cost is an allowable outlay to earn income until the ATO says otherwise, so you reduce your tax and offset the cost. The issue is equity and access. If I come from a background where access to capital for education is not a reality, I have to generate surplus from my income, so it takes longer and may if you make other choices along the way, be impossible. That is inequitable.
EBAs and WPGs are here to stay, industry standards will provide a commencing platform for conditions but thats all, after all Cathay drivers are not working for a bowl of rice a day are they? Believe it or not there is a raft of quite established contract law which supports your interests vis a vis the employer as well. If your communal in orientation then the issue is how to fund the collective in using the Courts. Frankly, my interests are very much tied to the success or otherwise of my employer(s) so while I find the industry wide issues interesting, like every other driver I will look after my personal interest first and I am only interested in my company succeeding and surviving, not yours, are you going to be responsible if not? No of course not.
The Ryan Air case while illuminating is not binding on any Australian Court. If you think a return to the days of imposed costs via the IRC and awards, then you have paid no attention to where IR has gone and is going in Oz at the moment.
The issue is also one of choice, if you pay now for your further training you can actually perhaps make a better choice about what qualifications you would really spend money on. I found a HECS supported vocational course and that is the choice I have made in the face of paying for additional or more in aviation. Putting out more cash for a piloting ticket is a bad investment in myself. In the face of my departure in several years my employers will realise it may have been cheaper to fund the training investment themselves, but then I won't care.
Simple HuH!
Any form of endorsement training is employment related, otherwise why would you go through the drama of a command type rating on a transport category aircraft, for fun! So the employer requires that skill not the industry just that employer, that makes it their operating cost, not yours or mine. Once an industry standard there is no going back, so the offload of that cost to you the employee is complete, when and how it works through mainline QF is anybodies guess, but it will, QF is the standout now not the rest.
This is all not such a bad thing, if you fund the qualification, you own the skill, so its transferrable to other markets like overseas operators. The cost is an allowable outlay to earn income until the ATO says otherwise, so you reduce your tax and offset the cost. The issue is equity and access. If I come from a background where access to capital for education is not a reality, I have to generate surplus from my income, so it takes longer and may if you make other choices along the way, be impossible. That is inequitable.
EBAs and WPGs are here to stay, industry standards will provide a commencing platform for conditions but thats all, after all Cathay drivers are not working for a bowl of rice a day are they? Believe it or not there is a raft of quite established contract law which supports your interests vis a vis the employer as well. If your communal in orientation then the issue is how to fund the collective in using the Courts. Frankly, my interests are very much tied to the success or otherwise of my employer(s) so while I find the industry wide issues interesting, like every other driver I will look after my personal interest first and I am only interested in my company succeeding and surviving, not yours, are you going to be responsible if not? No of course not.
The Ryan Air case while illuminating is not binding on any Australian Court. If you think a return to the days of imposed costs via the IRC and awards, then you have paid no attention to where IR has gone and is going in Oz at the moment.
The issue is also one of choice, if you pay now for your further training you can actually perhaps make a better choice about what qualifications you would really spend money on. I found a HECS supported vocational course and that is the choice I have made in the face of paying for additional or more in aviation. Putting out more cash for a piloting ticket is a bad investment in myself. In the face of my departure in several years my employers will realise it may have been cheaper to fund the training investment themselves, but then I won't care.
Simple HuH!