New ATC Documentary on BBC2
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there are a significant number of regional airports in the UK that have very limited or non-existent access to the airways, and that we have to go off-airways to get to and from those airports.
I realise that as a commercial pilot, you may be directed to follow a certain route in and out of certain airfields. This is fine, if you're happy with trundling through the VoY at military playtime. I wonder if the passengers would be happy, knowing their lives may be at risk. The airline bosses will continue to direct you to fly outside CAS until the day that an airprox becomes a mid-air collision. That will be the day when profitability will no longer be an issue. And the route will either disappear from the schedule, or the airline will charge more to cover the mileage. Which is what they could be doing now.
With respect, I don't think you were the first person to have a scare in the VoY / North Sea airspace, and I don't think you'll be the last. The military are really struggling with the volume of traffic into and out of NT/NV that wants to take a shortcut to and from the North Sea.
There's a theory about air safety, and indeed a book, called "The Tombstone Imperative". The basis of it is that the airlines will not make a radical change to procedures in order to make things safer, unless people die because of the unsafe procedures. The airspace south of Newcastle might just become a classic.
LTP
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I can think of many regional airports who have little or no CAS around them, one regional airport carrying almost 4 million passengers a year has only a very small control zone and all aircraft in and out fly outside regulated airspace.
There is absolutely no way without more CAS to protect these commercial operations to the fullest extent. We offer and provide a comprehensive RAS however with a large number of fast military aircraft also flying in the vicinity it isn't always easy.
I have to say I have had very few problems with military aircraft the vast majority call us up and tell us what they are doing( we have the advantage of a UHF frequency) but when i did have problems with one and advised him we would be filing he even refused to give his registration, and when ringing his unit to say that we were appalled at his airmanship we were promptly told he was outside CAS he could do what he wanted.
It is as always the odd few who give a bad name to many, but to protect our regional airports with Class D airspace linked to the airways system , stepped to allow aircraft who do no wish or require a service would be a sensible approach IMHO
There is absolutely no way without more CAS to protect these commercial operations to the fullest extent. We offer and provide a comprehensive RAS however with a large number of fast military aircraft also flying in the vicinity it isn't always easy.
I have to say I have had very few problems with military aircraft the vast majority call us up and tell us what they are doing( we have the advantage of a UHF frequency) but when i did have problems with one and advised him we would be filing he even refused to give his registration, and when ringing his unit to say that we were appalled at his airmanship we were promptly told he was outside CAS he could do what he wanted.
It is as always the odd few who give a bad name to many, but to protect our regional airports with Class D airspace linked to the airways system , stepped to allow aircraft who do no wish or require a service would be a sensible approach IMHO
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one regional airport carrying almost 4 million passengers a year has only a very small control zone and all aircraft in and out fly outside regulated airspace.
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Speaking from experience with your RAF, they are not the masters of "Rules of the Air". Frequent airspace and level busts when they operate on our side of the north sea.
41Sqn got a temporary grounding during a visit last winter, and my SATCO had to do a new "in-brief". The triggering violation was flight trough a class D TMA at FL100 and several Jaguars with U/S transponders. One flight allso veered out of a danger area with allmost 10 miles, straight into 2 airways. (Without talking to anyone, not even reachable on UHF/VHF guard.)
If anyone fancy a try at Norwegian, the AAIB report on the TMA bust: http://www.aaib-n.org/Rapporter%2020...rt%2038-03.htm
41Sqn got a temporary grounding during a visit last winter, and my SATCO had to do a new "in-brief". The triggering violation was flight trough a class D TMA at FL100 and several Jaguars with U/S transponders. One flight allso veered out of a danger area with allmost 10 miles, straight into 2 airways. (Without talking to anyone, not even reachable on UHF/VHF guard.)
If anyone fancy a try at Norwegian, the AAIB report on the TMA bust: http://www.aaib-n.org/Rapporter%2020...rt%2038-03.htm
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Jack-oh, 16Blades. (edited due to product of 2 night shifts !!)
AFAIK (willing to be corrected) there are very few Advisory Routes (Class F airspace) south of 55 Deg N, the bulk are around Scotland (GOW-BEN, GOW-STN, GOW-INS-WIK-SUM, ADN-WIK, ADN-SUM), with enough civil airliners to make it interesting - and no alternative routes to fly.
Having worked both mil+civil I can categorically say we have an excellent mil/civil liaison at ScACC controller to controller. Can't speak for the scopies though
- the problem is unknown traffic, speaking to no-one, or worse still wearing 'NATO autonomous@ squawks.
Jack-oh - Lossie are delegated a very small part of the ADR structure (and then only Mon-Fri), but there is quite a large world outside the 50 mile range ring and above FL115
16B - the point I am making is that frequently mil jets are maneouvring around in Class F advisory routes, and frequently civil airliners are wheeched about the sky trying to anticipate and to avoid them. And I am sure there are drawers full of airmiss reports on the subsequent melee - (and many other filled drawers...) I take your point about the Vale of York, busy place, (I worked the LARS there a few years ago). Wiltshire based crews ;-) I suspect are more aware of 'other traffic' due to the even more busy nature of Southern airspace. Some of the jets flying around Scotland may be under the impression that they are the only people in the sky .... not so. Scottish just posted it's busiest ever day/week at the end of July.
Now I am sure you would agree that while Class F airspace is not recognised by the mil, it is tempting fate to fart around in it with gay abandon. Put the boot on the other foot. MATZ around mil airfields are not legally enforcable (2nm ATZ is, but MATZ isn't). So what would be the likely reaction if Joe Bloggs drove his little Cessna right up to the ATZ edge and flew (perfectly legally) up and down the final approach with equal gay abandon ? Think he'd be criticised for unsportsmanlike conduct?
To the ATP, SF34 and E145 pilots who daily run the gauntlet. There is talk of a jet syndicate getting together at a West of Scotladn airfield. Perhaps your own interceptor to accompany you on the ADRs might be not too far away
AFAIK (willing to be corrected) there are very few Advisory Routes (Class F airspace) south of 55 Deg N, the bulk are around Scotland (GOW-BEN, GOW-STN, GOW-INS-WIK-SUM, ADN-WIK, ADN-SUM), with enough civil airliners to make it interesting - and no alternative routes to fly.
Having worked both mil+civil I can categorically say we have an excellent mil/civil liaison at ScACC controller to controller. Can't speak for the scopies though
- the problem is unknown traffic, speaking to no-one, or worse still wearing 'NATO autonomous@ squawks.Jack-oh - Lossie are delegated a very small part of the ADR structure (and then only Mon-Fri), but there is quite a large world outside the 50 mile range ring and above FL115
16B - the point I am making is that frequently mil jets are maneouvring around in Class F advisory routes, and frequently civil airliners are wheeched about the sky trying to anticipate and to avoid them. And I am sure there are drawers full of airmiss reports on the subsequent melee - (and many other filled drawers...) I take your point about the Vale of York, busy place, (I worked the LARS there a few years ago). Wiltshire based crews ;-) I suspect are more aware of 'other traffic' due to the even more busy nature of Southern airspace. Some of the jets flying around Scotland may be under the impression that they are the only people in the sky .... not so. Scottish just posted it's busiest ever day/week at the end of July.
Now I am sure you would agree that while Class F airspace is not recognised by the mil, it is tempting fate to fart around in it with gay abandon. Put the boot on the other foot. MATZ around mil airfields are not legally enforcable (2nm ATZ is, but MATZ isn't). So what would be the likely reaction if Joe Bloggs drove his little Cessna right up to the ATZ edge and flew (perfectly legally) up and down the final approach with equal gay abandon ? Think he'd be criticised for unsportsmanlike conduct?
To the ATP, SF34 and E145 pilots who daily run the gauntlet. There is talk of a jet syndicate getting together at a West of Scotladn airfield. Perhaps your own interceptor to accompany you on the ADRs might be not too far away
Last edited by PH-UKU; 8th Aug 2003 at 18:09.
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Hugmonster
You criticism of my levels of experience suggest you take my comments personally, and they weren't directed at you but at the appearance the program gave that air traffic controllers were bordering on the cowboy and our airspace resembled wild country where passengers were at risk. I was particularly refering to the VoY area as this is not an area which MUST be crossed - which regional airport within it would you be trying to reach ? There is a great deal of military traffic both low level and transitting to the danger areas off the coast to practice refuelling etc and I had thought for the most part it they didnt cause to many problems, until I heard your story. Now I am inclined to believe that perhaps, as others have said, it is an intense milatry playground during the day and best kept clear of, particularly with a nice warm cosy airway so close. That is the lesson I have learned from your story.
Whether you reach the same conclusion is nothing to do with me, whether your airline puts pressure on you to fly a more risky route to save a few bucks is nothing to do with me. I totally agree there are some areas which require more CAS. All I said was aircraft putting passengers at risk flying through the VoY
was a subject more suited to a program on how airlines are taking unnecessary risks with passengers rather than one about ATC.
You criticism of my levels of experience suggest you take my comments personally, and they weren't directed at you but at the appearance the program gave that air traffic controllers were bordering on the cowboy and our airspace resembled wild country where passengers were at risk. I was particularly refering to the VoY area as this is not an area which MUST be crossed - which regional airport within it would you be trying to reach ? There is a great deal of military traffic both low level and transitting to the danger areas off the coast to practice refuelling etc and I had thought for the most part it they didnt cause to many problems, until I heard your story. Now I am inclined to believe that perhaps, as others have said, it is an intense milatry playground during the day and best kept clear of, particularly with a nice warm cosy airway so close. That is the lesson I have learned from your story.
Whether you reach the same conclusion is nothing to do with me, whether your airline puts pressure on you to fly a more risky route to save a few bucks is nothing to do with me. I totally agree there are some areas which require more CAS. All I said was aircraft putting passengers at risk flying through the VoY
was a subject more suited to a program on how airlines are taking unnecessary risks with passengers rather than one about ATC.
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How has this thread so quickly turned into a mil vs civ punch up!!
We as Mil ATC are as professional as anybody else, we are all in the game of safety, and are all on the same side!
I for one have been saved a couple of times by the civil planners, and i am sure the feeling is mutual.
I agree that some mil pilots may have busted levels etc, as was stated earlier, have their civil brethren not also fallen foul of this?
Most, even all, mil pilots who are under an ATC service, even if RIS, will stop off or reroute to help out other aircraft, you only have to ask. Calling their airmanship into question is in my opinion a little harsh, they did'nt get their wings out of a christmas cracker.
As far as the NT/NV situation goes, (a/c routing direct from UMBEL) this is a very sensitive subject at present. The civil pilots would probably tell you the same, it is extremely hard work for both pilot and controller, the pilot is sometimes being asked to perform manoeuvres that the Red Arrows would be proud of!! It isnt an ideal situation, but until it is resolved i am afraid (as much as it pains me to say) we will all just have to cope. (as usual)
If i have totally misunderstood any of the above, i apologise, its just the way it read to me.
We as Mil ATC are as professional as anybody else, we are all in the game of safety, and are all on the same side!
I for one have been saved a couple of times by the civil planners, and i am sure the feeling is mutual.
I agree that some mil pilots may have busted levels etc, as was stated earlier, have their civil brethren not also fallen foul of this?
Most, even all, mil pilots who are under an ATC service, even if RIS, will stop off or reroute to help out other aircraft, you only have to ask. Calling their airmanship into question is in my opinion a little harsh, they did'nt get their wings out of a christmas cracker.
As far as the NT/NV situation goes, (a/c routing direct from UMBEL) this is a very sensitive subject at present. The civil pilots would probably tell you the same, it is extremely hard work for both pilot and controller, the pilot is sometimes being asked to perform manoeuvres that the Red Arrows would be proud of!! It isnt an ideal situation, but until it is resolved i am afraid (as much as it pains me to say) we will all just have to cope. (as usual)
If i have totally misunderstood any of the above, i apologise, its just the way it read to me.
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TheRev, I think you misunderstand the point of the programme in one respect, (which HM pointed out to you) which is that, where lack of CAS exists for the service required, aircraft HAVE to go off-airways. It is not a matter of airlines "saving a few bucks". Without the use of advisory routes, of Class G airspace or whatever, there simply would not be a service. Lots of controllers and pilots would then be out of jobs, lots of the travelling public would be unable to fly from the regional airport of their choice.
This is simple economics.
It is not acceptable for the military to indulge themselves in "it's legal, so we can do it" behaviour, and it's not acceptable for the 172 driver to hang around on the extended centreline of a military runway.
It has to be accepted that we need to share airspace responsibly. We also need airspace that works for all of its users. What we have at present does not meet that criterion.
This is simple economics.
It is not acceptable for the military to indulge themselves in "it's legal, so we can do it" behaviour, and it's not acceptable for the 172 driver to hang around on the extended centreline of a military runway.
It has to be accepted that we need to share airspace responsibly. We also need airspace that works for all of its users. What we have at present does not meet that criterion.
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As far as the NT/NV situation goes, (a/c routing direct from UMBEL) this is a very sensitive subject at present. The civil pilots would probably tell you the same, it is extremely hard work for both pilot and controller, the pilot is sometimes being asked to perform manoeuvres that the Red Arrows would be proud of!! It isnt an ideal situation, but until it is resolved i am afraid (as much as it pains me to say) we will all just have to cope. (as usual)
How can your CAA sit and let this situation continue? It sounds like you operate with a safetylevel common to some developing countries. Well, perhaps this is what you get when you have allmost water-tight bulkheads between the MIL/CIV control and airspace structure.......
Have anyone looked at having one service for BOTH "customers", it seems a bit odd when the airspace available is so limited, and traffic levels are as high as you say?
Captain Stable in onto something......
Better duck again.....
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Have anyone looked at having one service for BOTH "customers", it seems a bit odd when the airspace available is so limited, and traffic levels are as high as you say?
So, as if his life isn't interesting enough, you add a couple of F50's doing 250kts, cutting a swathe through his airspace, wanting continuous descent into Newcastle. Of course, this civil traffic demands a RAS, so now he's watching a slow aircraft outside controlled airspace. There could be anything out there, and indeed there frequently is. Trying to maintain 5m/5000' against all that must be no mean feat.
The controllers at MASOR shouldn't be being asked to handle all this traffic (in the summer months, it's an awful LOT of traffic), but for one reason or another, it happens. Suffice to say it's all political.
It is not a matter of airlines "saving a few bucks". Without the use of advisory routes, of Class G airspace or whatever, there simply would not be a service. Lots of controllers and pilots would then be out of jobs, lots of the travelling public would be unable to fly from the regional airport of their choice.
If these routes are as popular as their frequency indicates, then the airlines can afford to fly along the airways and charge their passengers a bit more. If the passengers really value having an airport on their doorstep, they'll pay a bit more for the privilege of using it, instead of having to go to Manchester. Even if, horror of horrors, the route had to be suspended, I don't think any of us "would be out of jobs". The controllers would be positively delighted, especially the military ones, who would be able to get back to controlling military traffic.
It has to be accepted that we need to share airspace responsibly. We also need airspace that works for all of its users. What we have at present does not meet that criterion.
savechip55, keep up the good work. I hope the airlines appreciate it.
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LostThePicture - well named!
You're wrong in almost every important respect.
Just about nobody (CAA, NATS, MoD, civil operators) think the airspace we have is fine. And it needs rather a lot more than just "certain civilian carriers to use it properly", although it does need that.
It also needs certain (minority) military elements to show a sense of professionalism rather than yeeeeha gungho-ism.
Basically, I get the impression that you've never seen the world from the flight deck of a regional airliner, nor have any idea of what goes on in civilian aviation except for what you see on your screen. Please confirm this is wrong?
You're wrong in almost every important respect.
Just about nobody (CAA, NATS, MoD, civil operators) think the airspace we have is fine. And it needs rather a lot more than just "certain civilian carriers to use it properly", although it does need that.
It also needs certain (minority) military elements to show a sense of professionalism rather than yeeeeha gungho-ism.
Basically, I get the impression that you've never seen the world from the flight deck of a regional airliner, nor have any idea of what goes on in civilian aviation except for what you see on your screen. Please confirm this is wrong?
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The new North Sea airspace (have you flown on it yet Hugmonster?) came into being in March this year. The airspace was radically restructured because:
1) The old North Sea airspace was generating huge delays due to flow restrictions.
2) The military wanted a bigger danger area in which to fly their Typhoons, when they arrive.
Another change which occurred at about the same time was the introduction of a new class A airway, which was roughly along the lines of the old NORCA (POL-NEW) which allowed civil airliners to safely transit the Vale of York.
The airspace, as it stands now, is basically one big compromise between the CAA and the MoD. Nobody got exactly what they wanted (there wasn't enough space for that), but in the end the airspace was agreed in theory.
As far as I can see, the only people who are disgruntled with the current layout are the MoD, or more specifically, MASOR East. Why? Because they are being inundated with civilian traffic which they really should not have to be controlling. The idea was that all traffic routeing to Newcastle and Teesside from the East would go around via RIMTO and GASKO. But, for one political reason or another, the MoD agreed to give a service to NT/NV in/outbounds wanting to take the shorter route, outside CAS. Unfortunately, due to "profitability", this was EVERYONE. So, the MASOR are currently working their asses off doing our job.
I stand to be corrected, but I think more-or-less everyone in the civil world is quite pleased with the airspace. The capacity has been increased markedly and the sectors no longer cause delays. Happy airlines too, not waiting for a slot because of one inefficient sector. There have been a few teething problems on the ATC side, but that is only to be expected for such a huge change (the biggest ever to UK airspace).
This statement from a post earlier in the thread more or less says it all really. Although I chuckled, the fact is that if you are flying out there over the Vale of York or the North Sea, below FL245, you can be receiving a service from ANYONE (MASOR East, Pennine Radar, the Lord Almighty) and you're still not necessarily safe. It's class G airspace, open FIR. The pilots in there don't have to be talking to anybody, they don't even have to have a transponder. And that includes military fast jets. "Gungho-ism" doesn't come into it - they aren't breaking any rules. Flying out there in a turboprop is a very, very risky business.
To answer your final question, I take my fam. flights (when I can get them) and consider myself reasonably well informed on the subject of civil aviation. (Do you have any idea what goes on in the world of ATC?) But no, I've never been on the flight deck of a regional airliner. And if the opportunity arose tomorrow to sit in the cockpit for a flight AMS-NCL, I'd stay at home. 
LTP
1) The old North Sea airspace was generating huge delays due to flow restrictions.
2) The military wanted a bigger danger area in which to fly their Typhoons, when they arrive.
Another change which occurred at about the same time was the introduction of a new class A airway, which was roughly along the lines of the old NORCA (POL-NEW) which allowed civil airliners to safely transit the Vale of York.
The airspace, as it stands now, is basically one big compromise between the CAA and the MoD. Nobody got exactly what they wanted (there wasn't enough space for that), but in the end the airspace was agreed in theory.
As far as I can see, the only people who are disgruntled with the current layout are the MoD, or more specifically, MASOR East. Why? Because they are being inundated with civilian traffic which they really should not have to be controlling. The idea was that all traffic routeing to Newcastle and Teesside from the East would go around via RIMTO and GASKO. But, for one political reason or another, the MoD agreed to give a service to NT/NV in/outbounds wanting to take the shorter route, outside CAS. Unfortunately, due to "profitability", this was EVERYONE. So, the MASOR are currently working their asses off doing our job.
I stand to be corrected, but I think more-or-less everyone in the civil world is quite pleased with the airspace. The capacity has been increased markedly and the sectors no longer cause delays. Happy airlines too, not waiting for a slot because of one inefficient sector. There have been a few teething problems on the ATC side, but that is only to be expected for such a huge change (the biggest ever to UK airspace).
In one part of the programme a civil pilot who had had an Airprox with a military aircraft stated "as I was flying through the Vale of York", he might well of started off by saying "as I was swimming off the Great Barrier Reef with a pork chop tied round my neck".
To answer your final question, I take my fam. flights (when I can get them) and consider myself reasonably well informed on the subject of civil aviation. (Do you have any idea what goes on in the world of ATC?) But no, I've never been on the flight deck of a regional airliner. And if the opportunity arose tomorrow to sit in the cockpit for a flight AMS-NCL, I'd stay at home.
LTP
Hugmonster, I am afraid that Lost the Picture actually seems to be able to see the bigger picture and I'm not being biased. A lot of these civ airliners flying through the VoY (including big airbuses for cripes sake) should not be there. Many pilots seem to think that they are still on-route, even more haven't got a clue what we are talking about when we ask them what type of radar service they require. We impose RAS because it's the best that we can do, but they DON'T UNDERSTAND what their responsibilities are under RAS. How safe is that??? On a weekend recently I actually explained RAS to a KLM pilot over the RT because he was the only guy on freq. After a couple of minutes he said 'ohhhhh, is that how it works!' Strangely enough when I then called traffic to him he said that he was 'good VMC and happy to continue' as well he might be. There was no cloud at all, 80k's vis nil wx. Learning had taken place!
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c_t, you got it in one. Which is more than can be said for LTP.
"I'm not breaking any rules - I can do what I like here" is not an attitude that will aid flight safety. Nor will the attitude shown by the second sentence of yours that I quoted.
Is it fair to assume that you are a mil controller?
"Gungho-ism" doesn't come into it - they aren't breaking any rules.
And if the opportunity arose tomorrow to sit in the cockpit for a flight AMS-NCL, I'd stay at home.
And if the opportunity arose tomorrow to sit in the cockpit for a flight AMS-NCL, I'd stay at home.
Is it fair to assume that you are a mil controller?
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Datalink has been in use over the Pacific for years. Why do the Europeans have to re-invent the wheel all the time?
Because the datalink in the Pacific is FANS-based and it only works in low-density airspace.
If we could stick FANS datalink into Europe, we would have done. But core airspace here is a touch busier than it is over the ocean blue.
Think of it as inventing a round wheel instead of the square one that you're currently stuck with.