Spanish ATC
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ant1
your missing some of the point I feel,,, its not a general moan about ATC in spain from me, its a moan about the Spanish Madrid ATC, most of the world is great, if not superb, but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s
your missing some of the point I feel,,, its not a general moan about ATC in spain from me, its a moan about the Spanish Madrid ATC, most of the world is great, if not superb, but I would trust my wallet to a Gypsy before I trust my life to air tragedy in spain! there a bunch of useless ****s
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Are they bad?
In my opinion they are not the best in the world, having suffered an engine explosion - the crankshaft failed, taking two cylinders through the top cowling, destroying much of both the top cowl and lower cowl with debris hitting and damaging the tailplane, followed shortly afterwards by a small fire due to a petrol line being severed. All of this was at FL100, flying IFR in the airway. The fire extinquisher system worked but due to the damage the aircraft was not able to hold level flight, the best was about 300fps sink with full power on the good engine. When this was sorted a mayday was transmitted to Madrid, the response was "standby" after a delay of a couple of minutes I transmitted again and was told "standby" after another minute or so a passing British airways flight tried to relay the message, he too was told to standby. Transmitting on box two on 121.5 brought the same voice also telling me to standby. A few minutes went by and the emergency was acknowledged. And yes, I did change my transponder to 7700 before the first call.
A safe landing was made at a military airfield some 30nm short of Madrid (the aircraft was too badly damaged to make Madrid) where I enquired if there was another emergency going on with Madrid at the same time - I was told no, its normally like that as its so busy.....
A safe landing was made at a military airfield some 30nm short of Madrid (the aircraft was too badly damaged to make Madrid) where I enquired if there was another emergency going on with Madrid at the same time - I was told no, its normally like that as its so busy.....
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This may also have something to do with the refusal of 'direct to'..........................
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence
EUROCONTROL - Flight Plan & ATFCM adherence
Gender Faculty Specialist
Is anyone one else slightly concerned with quotes like "burning all that extra fuel" and the like.
You are not burning extra fuel are you? You are burning the amount of fuel that the flight plan you have got in your hands says you will (within the tolerances of your flight planning system).
Any savings because of higher levels than filed or shortcuts or whatever are extra fuel in hand.
If you haven't got enough fuel to get you to your destination via your entire flight plan then I would question your ability to act as a commander of a commercial airliner.
You are not burning extra fuel are you? You are burning the amount of fuel that the flight plan you have got in your hands says you will (within the tolerances of your flight planning system).
Any savings because of higher levels than filed or shortcuts or whatever are extra fuel in hand.
If you haven't got enough fuel to get you to your destination via your entire flight plan then I would question your ability to act as a commander of a commercial airliner.
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zerotohero your terminating sentence smells, Hoo-ah! as Lieutenant Colonel Frank Slade would say.
Godeneaglepilot (BTW nice plane) sorry to hear that but one swallow doesn't make a summer ... I could tell you positive stories about well handled situations by Spain's ATC and also point out some others very badly handled by -supposedly- the cream of the crop. En todos sitios cuecen habas y en casa del vecino, a veces, a calderadas (you may want to Google that
).
Godeneaglepilot (BTW nice plane) sorry to hear that but one swallow doesn't make a summer ... I could tell you positive stories about well handled situations by Spain's ATC and also point out some others very badly handled by -supposedly- the cream of the crop. En todos sitios cuecen habas y en casa del vecino, a veces, a calderadas (you may want to Google that
).
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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His dudeness
OK, as a regular airline passenger, let's put it in context over the performance of the industry as a whole. That's the bottom line for me as a passenger who has to suffer the delays when I'm traveling. Along with millions of others, including the crews.
From the Eurocontrol annual CODA report for 2009 (which has information supplied by IATA), the following are the causes of delays:
Airline caused delays - 49%
ATFM delay - 25%
The rest is made up of Weather delays, Airport company & security delays, or Miscellaneous delays.
So through a passengers eyes, you and your colleagues (not just flight deck of course) are causing double the delays that every aspect of ATC are causing. If you break down the ATC side even further then you get the following:
ATC Capacity (i.e. more aircraft than can fit in the airspace system safely)- 37%
ATC imposed Weather delay- 27%
ATC Staffing - 18%
Airport Facilities - 11%,
Other - 3%
ATC Equipment - 2%
The staffing problems you allude to therefore create 18% of the overall 25% of delay in Europe. Or 4.5% of the overall European delay if my sums are right. As a passenger, I'd want someone to sort out the 49% caused by Airline operations as a higher priority than the 4.5% caused by ATC staffing !
That's absolutely not to say that ATC shouldn't be trying to improve their part of the problem, they absolutely should. The reality though is that the vast majority of ATC causes (64%), such as Weather or capacity, have little scope for improvement.
Weather will always mean a reduction in traffic flows simply due to the conditions and unpredictability of flight paths which means a greater volume of airspace is needed for each flight to ensure its safety.
Capacity can be tackled perhaps but there are limits in some cases due to restricted airspace (maybe due to military operations), or the excessive demand from operators who all plan to arrive and depart a single piece of tarmac at exactly the same time which simply can't be physically accommodated, or where the operators decide that the cost benefit of paying for improvements in capacity is simply not worth it. ATC providers work hand in hand with airline operators (your managements) to identify areas where improvements would provide most benefit, and to identify whether the cost of doing so is one which justifies the work being undertaken.
In spite of your tart reply, I'll always try to ensure that pilots get a safe and efficient service. I trust you will do the same for me as a passenger ?
You have a job because of everyone that travels. As do I. They are my indirect customers as well.
European ATC is indeed overdue a sea change which will solve some problems. I am just not sure that the European ideas such as SESAR and FABs being proposed will bring all the benefits that are being touted. If you think it is a panacea for all todays problems then I'm afraid I'll believe it when I see it. Weather and capacity can never be solved 100%. You also have severe difficulties to overcome in terms of sovereignty and security and the right of States to have military operations which are unhindered by civil aircraft. Unless you have a master plan that we could use ?
In the meantime, what is being done about airline induced delays in the report ?
RAT 5
I could almost guarantee that all UK controllers will use this window 100% of the time to make things work. If you get to the holding point 5 minutes early, then you'll be given take off clearance. And if you're running late, then the 10 minutes will be used to help you get airborne. In some scenarios, such as UK internal flights, we even have further agreements to pre-empt or extend the slots by -/+5 without reference to the CFMU in Brussels. For flights not requiring a slot, then flights can go early or late as well, within the parameters set down by Eurocontrol (-/+15 minutes).
As I keep saying, Spain playing it 100% by the book (or worse) for anything other than sound operational reasons is a folly and misguided.
Mcbruce
Fair enough. In the UK, you'd probably have got away without any hassle if the controller was on the ball and used experience to assess if you would make it or not. Perhaps Spanish controllers will read PPRuNe and realise that they would be better finding another way to fight their battle, if they are doing these things solely to try and make their point.
I understand someone was looking at removing the RPL system in Europe and requiring individual plans to be filed, but can't remember where I read it. That would resolve the problem perhaps
Onwards and upwards !
Your organizations shortfalls (such as understaffing etcetc) are coming to light as RESTRICTIONS. We have to adhere to them. You often implement them on very short notice. If WE do that (eg. overfly CBs, avoid turbulence, take favor of better winds etcetc) then its bad, a big no-no. All the while we have to put up with ever rising fuel costs, ETS, etcetc.
From the Eurocontrol annual CODA report for 2009 (which has information supplied by IATA), the following are the causes of delays:
Airline caused delays - 49%
ATFM delay - 25%
The rest is made up of Weather delays, Airport company & security delays, or Miscellaneous delays.
So through a passengers eyes, you and your colleagues (not just flight deck of course) are causing double the delays that every aspect of ATC are causing. If you break down the ATC side even further then you get the following:
ATC Capacity (i.e. more aircraft than can fit in the airspace system safely)- 37%
ATC imposed Weather delay- 27%
ATC Staffing - 18%
Airport Facilities - 11%,
Other - 3%
ATC Equipment - 2%
The staffing problems you allude to therefore create 18% of the overall 25% of delay in Europe. Or 4.5% of the overall European delay if my sums are right. As a passenger, I'd want someone to sort out the 49% caused by Airline operations as a higher priority than the 4.5% caused by ATC staffing !
That's absolutely not to say that ATC shouldn't be trying to improve their part of the problem, they absolutely should. The reality though is that the vast majority of ATC causes (64%), such as Weather or capacity, have little scope for improvement.
Weather will always mean a reduction in traffic flows simply due to the conditions and unpredictability of flight paths which means a greater volume of airspace is needed for each flight to ensure its safety.
Capacity can be tackled perhaps but there are limits in some cases due to restricted airspace (maybe due to military operations), or the excessive demand from operators who all plan to arrive and depart a single piece of tarmac at exactly the same time which simply can't be physically accommodated, or where the operators decide that the cost benefit of paying for improvements in capacity is simply not worth it. ATC providers work hand in hand with airline operators (your managements) to identify areas where improvements would provide most benefit, and to identify whether the cost of doing so is one which justifies the work being undertaken.
Leeway to make a slot? Get a life mate....
ATC in Europe seriously needs reorganization. And all the people employed in ATC in Europe need to understand that they have a job because of their clients and NOT vice-versa.
ATC in Europe seriously needs reorganization. And all the people employed in ATC in Europe need to understand that they have a job because of their clients and NOT vice-versa.
You have a job because of everyone that travels. As do I. They are my indirect customers as well.
European ATC is indeed overdue a sea change which will solve some problems. I am just not sure that the European ideas such as SESAR and FABs being proposed will bring all the benefits that are being touted. If you think it is a panacea for all todays problems then I'm afraid I'll believe it when I see it. Weather and capacity can never be solved 100%. You also have severe difficulties to overcome in terms of sovereignty and security and the right of States to have military operations which are unhindered by civil aircraft. Unless you have a master plan that we could use ?
In the meantime, what is being done about airline induced delays in the report ?
RAT 5
Curious about the -5/+10. The same is happening in Sweden, imposed by ATC management, I was told. Also I spoke to a flow controlter at Brussels and they assume we can get the -5 as SOP. The left hand & right hand being connected????? comes to mind.
As I keep saying, Spain playing it 100% by the book (or worse) for anything other than sound operational reasons is a folly and misguided.
Mcbruce
We may had less leeway but we were parked adjacent the mid point of the departing runway on a self manouvering stand. It took us 5 minutes from start until take off run commenenced. ATC may see the bigger picture but on this day, the hold point was empty and we had a clear run down the taxyway so thats why this one stuck in my head and made me look on this forum to see if anyone else is having similar issues, to me it seemed they were penalising us by strictly applying their procedures when a month or so ago, this wouldn't have been a problem and we would've been underway within our CTOT.
Perhaps Spanish controllers will read PPRuNe and realise that they would be better finding another way to fight their battle, if they are doing these things solely to try and make their point.
Bare with me as I only have a basic understanding on how the ATC network operates, as I understand our airline uses repetative flight plans and I don't think this system allows much in thought for aircraft weight/performance for optimum cruising levels, nor does it take into account various other factors that need to be applied on a day to day basis of operating the aircraft.
Onwards and upwards !
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I believe that 10W has called it absolutely correctly. Flow control is across the whole of Europe and takes into account route AND level. If you want a different level then file it and expect a slot accordingly. If you request en route then expect ATC to make enquiries, if they have capacity.
Expect things to become more onerous in future as 4D trajectories are forced through Europe by legislation and 'errors' are not well catered for in the ATM (Air Traffic Management) system.
ATC respond in accordance with the majority user wishes. If you want something outside of your company usual don't expect the controller providing the tactical service to respond instantly to your request. You need to be thinking pre tactically i.e 48 hours prior to flight.
BD
Expect things to become more onerous in future as 4D trajectories are forced through Europe by legislation and 'errors' are not well catered for in the ATM (Air Traffic Management) system.
ATC respond in accordance with the majority user wishes. If you want something outside of your company usual don't expect the controller providing the tactical service to respond instantly to your request. You need to be thinking pre tactically i.e 48 hours prior to flight.
BD
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BD
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10W
In response to you long post whit stats and stuff,, all well and good, the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!
They really cant, they can manage standard phrases but maybe 35% of the time you have to repeat yourself as they don't hear you correct, maybe because there in Spanish mode from speaking to Iberia or Spanair and cant switch back to English easy, but they really really cant understand English.
The amount of times I have tried to ask some basic info other than can we descend and get an answer to a totally different question! I just look at the captain and say really whats the point.
They don't belong in that tower.
In response to you long post whit stats and stuff,, all well and good, the bigger issue for me is THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!
They really cant, they can manage standard phrases but maybe 35% of the time you have to repeat yourself as they don't hear you correct, maybe because there in Spanish mode from speaking to Iberia or Spanair and cant switch back to English easy, but they really really cant understand English.
The amount of times I have tried to ask some basic info other than can we descend and get an answer to a totally different question! I just look at the captain and say really whats the point.
They don't belong in that tower.
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@10W
statistics are just numbers with limited information if you don´t know how those numbers are put together. For example the 49% of delay caused by the airlines might as well include delays on later flights of the day that were caused by some ATC delay on the first sector of the day.
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Hi,
I take the level I want, if possible. Depents what is cheaper for the company or in the interest of flightsafety. In Spain it regularly happens you wil not get the filed level "due to flowcontrol" , wich should not be possible if received a CTOT and flightplan accepted: it's all politics.
I think traffic will not make the situation worse, but the civil servants (atco's and all those gays and girls working in (semi) state institutions) in the southern European countries wil, due to laboursettlements: they do not understand yet the financial state their countries are in, but eventually they will....
I take the level I want, if possible. Depents what is cheaper for the company or in the interest of flightsafety. In Spain it regularly happens you wil not get the filed level "due to flowcontrol" , wich should not be possible if received a CTOT and flightplan accepted: it's all politics.
I think traffic will not make the situation worse, but the civil servants (atco's and all those gays and girls working in (semi) state institutions) in the southern European countries wil, due to laboursettlements: they do not understand yet the financial state their countries are in, but eventually they will....
Mostly however, it's not going to be possible to check and you'll stay at your flight planned level
Short cuts should surely be seen as a bonus
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Flying by the rule?
Next time I will question any speed reduction/increase which differs from what I've filed, I will question any re-routing due to "military area engaged" if my flight plan has been accepted the way I've filed it, I will not try to understand any spanish or frenchy SID/STAR/WAYPOINT names but only standard ICAO spelling, if the ATC R/T is of bad quality I will ask to say again until 5 by 5 quality achieved, I will not take anything less than level 4 english and will file a report anytime I feel that the ATCO on the other side of the mic doesn't have a safe english language level, I will not accept any clearance which contains more than one series of vital instructions (ALT or SPEED or HDG), I will refuse any radio relay if asked, I won't be able to report spot winds or MET conditions, I won't be able to vacate at specific early exits if asked, my taxi speed will never exceed 5-10kts, wherever possible I will not accept rolling takeoffs......
Just a few things we could do without really harming anyone and without damaging our companies noticeably, but we could give ATC a pretty hard time just like they do with us....will they fight for our T&C's then?
I think not.
Next time I will question any speed reduction/increase which differs from what I've filed, I will question any re-routing due to "military area engaged" if my flight plan has been accepted the way I've filed it, I will not try to understand any spanish or frenchy SID/STAR/WAYPOINT names but only standard ICAO spelling, if the ATC R/T is of bad quality I will ask to say again until 5 by 5 quality achieved, I will not take anything less than level 4 english and will file a report anytime I feel that the ATCO on the other side of the mic doesn't have a safe english language level, I will not accept any clearance which contains more than one series of vital instructions (ALT or SPEED or HDG), I will refuse any radio relay if asked, I won't be able to report spot winds or MET conditions, I won't be able to vacate at specific early exits if asked, my taxi speed will never exceed 5-10kts, wherever possible I will not accept rolling takeoffs......
Just a few things we could do without really harming anyone and without damaging our companies noticeably, but we could give ATC a pretty hard time just like they do with us....will they fight for our T&C's then?
I think not.
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maybepilot
I don't know if you are only referring to the current situation in spain. I totally agree with you on the first half of your post, but usually if I ask you a rolling take-off is to expedite the traffic flow, to help you avoiding delay, the same if I ask you to "expedite vacate" and so on. a met condition/wind report is good for other pilots.
Then pilots are able to "give ATC a pretty hard time" anyhow
I don't know if you are only referring to the current situation in spain. I totally agree with you on the first half of your post, but usually if I ask you a rolling take-off is to expedite the traffic flow, to help you avoiding delay, the same if I ask you to "expedite vacate" and so on. a met condition/wind report is good for other pilots.
Then pilots are able to "give ATC a pretty hard time" anyhow
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maybepilot, one word - LOL. You'd only harm yourself. Not accepting a rolling take-off to make ATC life harder 
, good one, you can also burn your fingers to make someone else suffer. I will gladly give 10 landings before your departure, not my problem.
, good one, you can also burn your fingers to make someone else suffer. I will gladly give 10 landings before your departure, not my problem.
Standard Speeds MAD ILS
Remember guys, standard speeds on MAD ILS are 180 kts at 12nm & 160 kts at 6nm, unless advised otherwise by ATC. Adhere to these, and then watch the chaos that ensues......
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usually if I ask you a rolling take-off is to expedite the traffic flow, to help you avoiding delay, the same if I ask you to "expedite vacate" and so on
Not accepting a rolling take-off to make ATC life harder , good one, you can also burn your fingers to make someone else suffer. I will gladly give 10 landings before your departure, not my problem.
Up to the nice Spaniards and Frenchmen ATCO's to deal with the traffic jam then.
An "expedite vacate" helps the ATCO not me really, so forget it.
Nightstop,
good one with the standard speeds in the MAD TMA, from now on they will be strictly adhered to.
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Nice try 10W but I think you will find the majority of the 49% attributed to the Airlines is code 93 (late inbound flight) which of course could be caused by any number of reasons including ATC.
We have gone off the point here anyway. There is no intention of using this thread as a means of getting back at individual controllers. The frustration is the wide level of ATC ability in Europe, Madrid perhaps being the poorest example. In addition, the ever increasing procedures being brought in that fail to take into account real world operations. This may be convenient for some Bureaucratic Erk sat in a comfortable office but it can not work. I also believe it could lead to a flight safety hazard as flight crew rush to be ready on time. Before all the sanctimonious comments come in about it being the Commanders responsibility to make sure all is safe just remember this will happen on the 4th sector of a long 4 sector day having gone into discretion the previous 4 days due to further ATC "work to rule" or new procedure compliance. Remember the crew are human as well.
We have gone off the point here anyway. There is no intention of using this thread as a means of getting back at individual controllers. The frustration is the wide level of ATC ability in Europe, Madrid perhaps being the poorest example. In addition, the ever increasing procedures being brought in that fail to take into account real world operations. This may be convenient for some Bureaucratic Erk sat in a comfortable office but it can not work. I also believe it could lead to a flight safety hazard as flight crew rush to be ready on time. Before all the sanctimonious comments come in about it being the Commanders responsibility to make sure all is safe just remember this will happen on the 4th sector of a long 4 sector day having gone into discretion the previous 4 days due to further ATC "work to rule" or new procedure compliance. Remember the crew are human as well.