Spanish ATC

[manrow]

Has everybody missed the fact that there were widespread strikes and demonstrations throughout Spain at least in the last few days, protesting at government cuts in expenditure and pay reductions?

I am also very surprised that no Spanish air controller has come up on here to explain?

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

Posting by Spanish controller on Spanish forum page

Posting by LEVC copied

no shortcuts
" There is a non official war between the controlers and Jose Blanco, who is the president´s strong man, he is in charge of the "Ministerio de Fomento", thus , in control of AENA.
The controlers used to be civil servants, with all the benefits it implies (cannot be fired unless they really screw-up) and they used to have a very strong union.
Years ago, when AENA was already private company (although the major part is owned by the administration, but the management is private), they negotiated with the controler´s union the terms and conditions, which were quite a good arrangement for the controlers, this terms and conditions were suposed to be in force now, as any negotiation aproved by both parts and that is published on the BOE (public bulletin published by the administration regularly and where one can find all information related to public affairs).
But the goverment has the power of canceling this arrangements ifthere is a major situation were something has to be done in order to avoid major problems, this cancelation is suposed to be an exceptional measure, that is , not just because they feel like canceling it.
Using this legal tool, Jose Blanco has imposed by law (real decreto if I remember correctly) among other things, a salary cut of 30%, and the roster and scheduling of ATC falls now under AENA´s power rather than own managed by controlers as it used to be.
He has also imposed a reduction in the number of controlers asigned for each scheduled service.

What we are suffering now is the reaction of the controlers, since they cannot do a strike because this is a government imposed thing using the legal tool Imentioned earlier, and they would be fired if the do strike, they are doing their job "by the book", meaning they will not do anything that is not 100% under the rules , like reducing separation, even on VMC and both traffics affected reporting the other one in sight etc etc

I agree is not really nice to be burning extra fuel, or arrriving a bit later than we could, but on the other hand, I consider that what the goverment is doing to the controlers is not fair, and I am sure, in due time they will get their salary and conditions to what it was.


I hope I have been of some help to understand what is going on with spanish ATC¨

[pitotheat]

The standard of controlling in Spain, particularly Madrid, was well below standard long before the present dispute started. Whenever we as a company tried to bring up safety issues with AENA and the controllers they were always ignored because the local management have no ability to question the controllers. That is why MAD has one of the worst safety records, witnessed by high levels of ASRs, in Europe. They have been getting away with this for too long. On top of this the controllers have an unsustainable set of T & Cs. This may be the start of a complete overhaul of the system which will benefit us all in the end. If it is not carried out by this method then the most likely way these shortcomings are finally faced up to is after an aircraft accident where the cause can be squarely pinned on poor controlling. The good Spanish Controllers (of which there are plenty) want the present situation of poor controlling and nepotism ended. In the meantime for those of us on the receiving end we will have to be more patient and carry a little more contingency fuel.

[manrow]

Thank you Jimmy Hoffa Rocks, for the comprehensive explanation.

[chevvron]

Jimmy Hoffa Rocks:
I'm sure many aircrew appreciate the info you posted. Do you have any info for them about the proposed 'reduction' to FIS at some airports as this may affect their operations eg which airports?

[tom775257]

It was painful today flying from the UK to and from Malaga. Apparently the French are having some issues too, so we departed with a slot 40 mins late, all the way following flightplan exactly, apart from some delaying vectoring at Malaga.

On arrival in Malaga told we have a slot 1:50 from our time on stand. This was not able to be moved forward and had no direct routings until we spoke to London (was a welcome relief). Obviously this gave a heavy delay to the next flight outbound, which was going to Spain again... ughhh. The Spanish ATCOs told us as usual recently, no direct routings due to high traffic load on next sector or something like that.

[10W]

First off, I'll state that I don't condone any penalising of operators as a means of 'industrial action'. It goes against a controllers principle of getting the aircraft out of your airspace as quickly as possible

That said, there are a few things which perhaps need some explanation.

TolTol

Was also denied a higher cruise level because we were filed at a lower level!! Totally unprofessional.

I would disagree. It is more unprofessional to not file the level you actually want to fly at.

When you file your plan in Europe, IFPS sends a copy to the Central Flow Management Unit in Brussels. This agency has details of all the European airspace sectors and their capacities. The CFMU takes your plan and calculates all the sectors you will penetrate, based on your planned route and levels. In some parts of Europe, for example the UK and Maastricht, these sectors are not only laterally divided but can also be vertically divided. The CFMU looks at the sector capacity against the demand and this then gives an indication of whether the airspace is going to be overloaded or not. This allows ATC to take appropriate actions to keep traffic at a safe volume. Funnily enough, this only works if the data being given is accurate.

Let's work through an example. You depart Northern UK and file at FL310. You're going down through the North Sea and at that level will enter London Sector 10 and then Maastricht Delta sectors. Both these sectors are within capacity and the CFMU calculates there is no problem and no slot required. Above those sectors, it's a heavy Westbound Transatlantic day and the sectors are already running at full capacity with slots being issued. You get airborne and decide you'd actually quite like FL370. The Scottish controller gives you this (in reality he wouldn't, but let's assume he does for illustration purposes) and you will now enter the airspace of London Sector 11 and Maastricht Delta High. Neither of these sectors were expecting you to be there, and nor were the CFMU. You also don't have a slot to be there but have circumvented that requirement. You're one aircraft, but you might be the one that tips it over the edge. Or you might be from an operator which has lots of departures around the same time going the same general direction who have all done the same (not inconceivable with a harp liveried airline for example). So now in addition to you, there are another 3 or 4 aircraft extra flying through an airspace which is already running at its safe capacity. The controller is overloaded, there is a small emergency, the RT loading is excessive, and he almost puts 2 aircraft together. The subsequent investigation reveals that the sector had an overdelivery of traffic and this impacted on the safety in the airspace. But at least you got an efficient cruising level that you hadn't filed

Controllers don't know the sectorisation of other ATC agencies down your route. They don't know if giving you a different level from that filed will cause problems somewhere else. Hence the campaign by Eurocontrol to ensure that ATC don't give unplanned cruising levels unless there are checks made first. Mostly however, it's not going to be possible to check and you'll stay at your flight planned level.

As an example of when it might be possible, if you're departing from the UK and Ireland and landing in the UK, Ireland, Paris area, or Amsterdam areas, then we might be able to do something for you. You make your request to ATC. The controller checks with the UK Flow Manager, who can then assess if the UK/Ireland sectors can accept the new level. If they can, then up you go. The reason that Paris and Amsterdam are included is because you will be descending prior to the UK boundary anyway and not at the new cruise level. Other European ATC agencies might be able to do similar things with their internal or adjacent airspace.

ab33t

This is crazy as we flew a route that normally takes us 2:10 almost 3 hours , speed restrictions, stars and and .........when is this going to end as well as we are now carrying an extra hrs fuel

Are you saying that you regularly flew a route with an hours less fuel than the flight plan demands simply because you normally always got the short cuts ? Probably illegal as well as dangerous. Short cuts should surely be seen as a bonus and planned on the basis you might not get them.

Beavis

Palma awkward today as well. No -5/+10 on slots. We called for push & start at CTOT -10 and were told we had missed slot. When questioned about the window, ATC 'reminded' everyone that the -5/+10 is at their discretion and it was not possible today.

The window is there solely for ATC use, to allow for taxiway and holding point congestion which might prevent an aircraft getting airborne at its Calculated Take Off Time (CTOT). ATC can, and often do, apply their discretion of course and use it to make up for operator shortfalls, but that's not ultimately what it is in place for. On that basis, pilots have no right to demand its application for their flight.

In the specific case you mention, I think you could argue that you would indeed probably have missed your slot. Palma has a published 'Taxi Time' in the CFMU database of 15 minutes. In other words you need to be 'off blocks' 15 minutes before your CTOT to make good that time. By your admission, you'd already eaten 5 minutes in to that and potentially are going to be a minimum of +5 on your slot before you even push back and start, let alone start your taxy. Maybe the controller decided that with your position on the airfield and the expected traffic and taxying instructions, that the only remaining 5 minutes of your slot window couldn't be achieved. Imagine if he was right and he'd let you taxy. He can't let you depart as you've missed your slot. He gets you a new one and it's 45 minutes from now. Do you take the taxy back of shame to stand and wait there ? Do you sit on the airfield remotely and burn fuel till it's time to depart ? Or remote park and shut down ? Does the controller look like a fool ? I only know the answer to the last one ... and yes, he does.

Do operators have the information on published taxy times ? I expect they do. Do they give this information to their crews ? It seems possibly not.

Mcbruce

Beavis, same happened to us a few days ago, called 8 minutes prior to CTOT

See above. You've even less leeway to make the slot than Beavis had.

We asked to climb above our filed level and told no, our flight plan capped us. Asked the next 2 sectors to be told the same. Another aircraft questioned it once they were refused too and told "we apply rules from our administrators". I assume this is some directive from eurocontrol about capacity in peak summer or is this how its going to be from now on?

Airspace was quiet and no aircraft occupied the level we wanted, so all in all, a waste of fuel, time and money.

See way above. Eurocontrol have published lots of explanation documents to ATC and operators about why. Read my example to see how it might apply in real life. The airspace you are currently in might indeed be quiet. The difficulties might be further down the line, which you have no way of knowing about, nor does your current controller.

The waste of fuel, time, and money could be easily resolved. Get your company to file the level you want


Lots of formal information and explanatory documentation about what I have tried to explain can be found here:

Eurocontrol Flight Plan and ATFCM Adherence

There are also going to be a couple of Flight Plan Adherence campaign days in September run by Eurocontrol all across Europe. This probably justifies inclusion in Rumours & News. Full details on the website above.

[Reimers]

It is more unprofessional to not file the level you actually want to fly at.

While I do agree that the dispatch system in the US where there is close communication between the dipatcher and the flight crew has its advantages, this is not how airlines currently operate. So, if we refile in todays environment just for a slightly lower flight level for a short period, CFMU will certainly issue an outrageously late slot that no one can deal with, so we don't have the flight plan refiled but rather ask for a level change enroute. If we get it, fine. If we don't, usually a valid reason is stated and we do accept it. In spain, we never hear a valid reason, it is only "stand-by".

The window is there solely for ATC use, to allow for taxiway and holding point congestion which might prevent an aircraft getting airborne at its Calculated Take Off Time (CTOT). ATC can, and often do, apply their discretion of course and use it to make up for operator shortfalls, but that's not ultimately what it is in place for. On that basis, pilots have no right to demand its application for their flight.

Well, operators also need some flexibility. We provide a service for our passengers (real people), You cannot expect us to forecast precisely (to the minute) hours in advance when an aircraft might be ready. ATC is there to help airplanes operate in a safe manner, not the other way round (e.g. airplanes are there as something for controllers to play with).

[10W]

If we get it, fine. If we don't, usually a valid reason is stated and we do accept it. In spain, we never hear a valid reason, it is only "stand-by".

Which in itself is a reasonable position to take. But what is a valid reason ? Compliance with the Eurocontrol Flight Plan and ATFCM Adherence campaign is a valid reason to me, but is it something pilots would feel inclined to argue with the controller about ? Perhaps Spanish controllers just need to say 'Unable' ? End of story.

Well, operators also need some flexibility. We provide a service for our passengers (real people), You cannot expect us to forecast precisely (to the minute) hours in advance when an aircraft might be ready. ATC is there to help airplanes operate in a safe manner, not the other way round (e.g. airplanes are there as something for controllers to play with).

I agree up to a point. Which is why most controllers use the slot window to accomodate pilots where they can, or make alternative plans such as slot extensions , where able, to give the best service. It is certainly not a game and safety is the priority. Many controllers would be insulted if you suggested to them they are just playing some video game. However, the safety of the system cannot be guaranteed if everybody just ignores the rules and makes no attempt to comply with them.

The balance can change if that's what operators collectively want. A totally flexible system, but a less safe one, with more overloaded sectors and the chance of more incidents. The future however seems to be more based on trajectory based systems. That will require even greater degrees of accuracy than we have today, with 4D navigation required from pilots. You won't have to achieve tolerances of minutes, but probably in the order of seconds

[lederhosen]

10W you put a good case forward for why adherence to flight plans is important. However in this case I think it misses the point. Our Spanish colleagues are not doing this to fix the system. They are doing this because it supports their dispute with the Spanish government to protect the kind of things that are ironically refered to worldwide in industrial relations language as 'spanish practices'.

Refusing short cuts in Spain when everyone else is giving them is pointless. We can also vary our speed to make up time. On a three hour sector this can easily equate to the difference the shortcut would have made, but of course burning more fuel.

Lets face it Spain is in serious financial difficulties and the pay of controllers is an obvious target. I do not think they will score many plus points when the true scale of what they are doing comes out.

If we were to total up the additional cost to the airlines of this work to rule over one year the figure would be immense, not to mention the environmental impact. It will probably make BP's disaster pale into insignificance. However right now it is literally below the radar as far as the general public are concerned.

Still there is an upside, as we say over here 'only block time brings money heim' (home).

[10W]

Thanks Lederhosen.

I agree Spanish ATC are doing it for all the wrong reasons hence my initial comment:

I'll state that I don't condone any penalising of operators as a means of 'industrial action'.

.

The company I work for (along with the other partner in its Functional Airspace Block) has an absolute commitment to reduce fuel burns for operators. That's why there are now things in place such as Night Time Fuel Savings Routes (NTSFR) and the Optimisation of Domestic, North Atlantic and European traffic flows (ODNET). I can't check the accuracy but the claimed savings are 14,800 tonnes of fuel and 46,800 tonnes of CO2 in 2009 for ODNET and 5,700 tonnes of fuel and 18,100 tonnes of CO2 per year for NTSFR. Every little helps

[pitotheat]

Some of the comments here demonstrate a lack of understanding on both sides of the R/T. Whilst the slot system and -5/+10 margin is for the management of the local ATC environment we as Pilots have been using this as taking up the daily delays of airport operations. So the obvious question is whether this present system is fit for purpose. It is a reality that on any given day that small delays in the very complex operation of preparing an aircraft for dispatch have to be accommodated by the system, equally if an aircraft is ready to depart earlier than schedule then it would seem ludicrous to keep it at the gate whilst the passengers and crew count down the clock. As is often the case when systems become more and more automated and computerized they become less flexible. We as an industry should not allow this to continue. There needs to be more operational awareness brought into these projects at the design stage to arrest this ever increasing problem of technology creating life less flexible and user friendly to us the users.
On another point regarding planned and actual flight levels. Obviously an aircraft operating FL is in part governed by it's planned take off weight. For a number of reasons, not least commercial, this planned FL may not be possible due to higher take off weights or a higher, more efficient, comfortable and faster FL may be possible due to lighter loads. In either case the system has to be able to deal with these situations and controllers should have some understanding of the reasons behind pilots asking for FLs other than those filed. Commercial awareness needs to be higher up all of our thought processes.

[His dudeness]

10W, allways nice to read between the lines of such posts as yours. Your organizations shortfalls (such as understaffing etcetc) are coming to light as RESTRICTIONS. We have to adhere to them. You often implement them on very short notice. If WE do that (eg. overfly CBs, avoid turbulence, take favor of better winds etcetc) then its bad, a big no-no. All the while we have to put up with ever rising fuel costs, ETS, etcetc.

Leeway to make a slot? Get a life mate....

ATC in Europe seriously needs reorganization. And all the people employed in ATC in Europe need to understand that they have a job because of their clients and NOT vice-versa.

[zerotohero]

Not read all the posts here but sounds about what I was thinking

I was in MAD this morning and had to ask tower on 15L to repeat my clearance to line up three times due poor radio manner,, the 2nd repeat was that bad I just decided to stop and start again from the beginning in very clear slow english to get it through that I needed it speaking clearly.

THEN! as we are in position and hold the same controller cleared the aircraft behind us to line up on 15R behind the departing traffic!, they ignored her while they just thought WTF I guess and so I told her she just cleared someone onto 15R behind us and we are on 15L, to which her response was, you have to wait in position ill call you!

They cant answer simple questions or respond to observations! they should all be sacked as there a danger to us and everyone in the sky, a CTAF would be safer there I bet.

if the Germans and French and Swiss and even the Italians can get English down and use it why cant the Spanish controllers! there a joke.

[RAT 5]

Curious about the -5/+10. The same is happening in Sweden, imposed by ATC management, I was told. Also I spoke to a flow controlter at Brussels and they assume we can get the -5 as SOP. The left hand & right hand being connected????? comes to mind.

[BusyB]

10W,

I appreciate the points you are making but a % of the time life doesn't work perfectly. Extended security checks, changes in Zero Fuel Weight on Freighters, weather changes all might mean delays or different Flight Levels.

I appreciate assistance from ATC and if you can't help a few words of explanation always helps.

Thanks in advance for our next receipt of your flexibility

[criss]

Some of you tend to think ATC staffing is the only reason for restrictions...

[McBruce]

10W, informative response, thank you for your input. We may had less leeway but we were parked adjacent the mid point of the departing runway on a self manouvering stand. It took us 5 minutes from start until take off run commenenced. ATC may see the bigger picture but on this day, the hold point was empty and we had a clear run down the taxyway so thats why this one stuck in my head and made me look on this forum to see if anyone else is having similar issues, to me it seemed they were penalising us by strictly applying their procedures when a month or so ago, this wouldn't have been a problem and we would've been underway within our CTOT. If we don't think we will make the slot then we request a new one or delaying action.

Bare with me as I only have a basic understanding on how the ATC network operates, as I understand our airline uses repetative flight plans and I don't think this system allows much in thought for aircraft weight/performance for optimum cruising levels, nor does it take into account various other factors that need to be applied on a day to day basis of operating the aircraft. Using the above system, then I doubt its feasible to apply such aspects to roughly 1300 plans per day. What it may lead too is operators filing at a higher level and us being capped by weight, which will just put strain on the upper levels predicted, and as you rightly said in your example, ATC ahead or CFMU won't know about it until we're airborne, of course, this is just an assumption but a view from the other side of the fence.

P.S. request runway 31!

[chiglet]

The French and Spanish controllers should take a deep breath......

TWO chances of them being sacked.....slim and none.....

[ant1]

What's all this moaning and groaning about Spain's ATC about? . I have no problem whatsoever with them. Mostly very nice people. My 3h ish legs must be pretty straight forward because I can barely gain 5 min out of those DCTs some miss sooo much.

After all this reading me thinks we sould be born with 20 eyes and 2 fingers, not the other way round.

I'm sure you moaners have all done a lot of reading to be able to sit on a thousands € armchair. You may even have read this and this before.

Be water, fly safe and while groaning don't forget to look out the window (there's life beyond ATC)!