UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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Bobblehat,
The point is, AAVA or Met shouldnt be part of a core pay deal. The NTUS should agree a core deal with NATS, then each Union could submit a sectional pay claim based on allowances, overtime, whatever.
The fact that NATS have insisted that the base pay deal should come with strings attached re. elements such as AAVAs is the biggest issue.
Don't get me wrong, this is management's doing, but Prospect ATCOs branch are acquiescing by going down this road.
The point is, AAVA or Met shouldnt be part of a core pay deal. The NTUS should agree a core deal with NATS, then each Union could submit a sectional pay claim based on allowances, overtime, whatever.
The fact that NATS have insisted that the base pay deal should come with strings attached re. elements such as AAVAs is the biggest issue.
Don't get me wrong, this is management's doing, but Prospect ATCOs branch are acquiescing by going down this road.
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Bobblehat, you say you think the offer for year 1 looks ok. Can I just ask if you are at a unit where you will be one of those affected by taking on the ATSA tasks on top of your controlling responsibilities?
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BAND4ALL - Thank you 
Bobblehat - I appreciate what you are saying, so my question to you now is this...... Why on earth are we negotiating on AAVA's anyway? Particurlarly for a measly 0.5% this year, and nothing next year. The pay deal should be just that.... a core pay deal. The AAVA agreement should be a separate entity. By voting this through we are giving up one of our main bargaining tools for such a small amount. Granted most of us enjoy the fact that we can bump up our salary for the year by doing AAVA's, and so therefore would like where we can to keep them in, but do we not have more pride and more fight in us than this? Management are exploiting the fact that we all do like to do the occasional AAVA, well lets get a pay deal - one that is the same for ATCO's, ATSA's and engineers through, and then negotiate on AAVA's. At the end of the day, although nice to have for us, management like this agreement as it means they dont have to pay an extra unspecified amount of ATCO salaries for the year, the AAVA agreement is a saving to them, and a good grace on our part that we work extra shifts to cover their lack of employees. Surely this is worth more than 0.5% for one year? I certainly think so.
IMHO, a no vote is the only way to stand up to management and show them we have bloody balls! At the end of the day, NATS is making profits based on the work ATCO's, engineers and assistants do, we should be rewarded as a whole for this! Lets stand united and be counted, this is the only way we are going to get the recompense we all deserve!
Bobblehat - I appreciate what you are saying, so my question to you now is this...... Why on earth are we negotiating on AAVA's anyway? Particurlarly for a measly 0.5% this year, and nothing next year. The pay deal should be just that.... a core pay deal. The AAVA agreement should be a separate entity. By voting this through we are giving up one of our main bargaining tools for such a small amount. Granted most of us enjoy the fact that we can bump up our salary for the year by doing AAVA's, and so therefore would like where we can to keep them in, but do we not have more pride and more fight in us than this? Management are exploiting the fact that we all do like to do the occasional AAVA, well lets get a pay deal - one that is the same for ATCO's, ATSA's and engineers through, and then negotiate on AAVA's. At the end of the day, although nice to have for us, management like this agreement as it means they dont have to pay an extra unspecified amount of ATCO salaries for the year, the AAVA agreement is a saving to them, and a good grace on our part that we work extra shifts to cover their lack of employees. Surely this is worth more than 0.5% for one year? I certainly think so.
IMHO, a no vote is the only way to stand up to management and show them we have bloody balls! At the end of the day, NATS is making profits based on the work ATCO's, engineers and assistants do, we should be rewarded as a whole for this! Lets stand united and be counted, this is the only way we are going to get the recompense we all deserve!
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Looking at the figures there is no core pay offer because the core element of these offers is very very small. The money on offer is almost entirely for agreeing to the strings.
Take out the Met deal and factor in the in perpetuity AAVA deal and what do you think the offer would be?
The threat of the AAVA deal lapsing at the end of the month has concentrated Management’s minds. They can go on their Easter hols knowing the sheep are safely back in their pen, in perpetuity.
Take out the Met deal and factor in the in perpetuity AAVA deal and what do you think the offer would be?
The threat of the AAVA deal lapsing at the end of the month has concentrated Management’s minds. They can go on their Easter hols knowing the sheep are safely back in their pen, in perpetuity.
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"The threat of the AAVA deal lapsing at the end of the month has concentrated Management’s minds."
Which is why many people will be wondering why the union have negotiated an AAVA at the old (some would say very old ) rate
, rather than look to increase the payment.
SOTB posts hit the nail on the head
.
Which is why many people will be wondering why the union have negotiated an AAVA at the old (some would say very old ) rate
, rather than look to increase the payment.SOTB posts hit the nail on the head
.
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Screwed again...
So, the ATCO branch membership will vote to accept their pay deal.
The ATSS branch will probably vote to accept their [worse] pay deal, even if it isn't recommended by their BEC.
The PCS union may be the only branch whose membership may have 'a pair' this year - which is surprising!
('cause everyone thinks that the ATCOs are the most militant)
Management have won again... all because we couldn't stick together under the NTUS. We could have avoided this so easily but again we have been rolled over.
The ATSS branch will probably vote to accept their [worse] pay deal, even if it isn't recommended by their BEC.
The PCS union may be the only branch whose membership may have 'a pair' this year - which is surprising!
('cause everyone thinks that the ATCOs are the most militant)
Management have won again... all because we couldn't stick together under the NTUS. We could have avoided this so easily but again we have been rolled over.
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Latestay - Thank you very much, i aim to please!
RPIplus1 - This is the kind of cynicism and division that management are hoping to get! If you have been reading this thread then you will see that there are some people like myself who do not agree with this whole thing! Speaking for myself and some of my colleagues, i know that we will certainly be a no vote for this deal. Fingers crossed we can get the 51% to reject this offer.
It has seemed for the last few weeks that the union has finally grown a pair, however, with yesterdays revelations, i am surprised at how quickly they lost that pair. A 5.2% increase on pay is nothing if we factor in met provision and in perpetuity AAVA! And so really, in my opinion, all they have done is once again fail their members at managements request. They should NOT be recommending this deal to the ATCO community. But, unfortunately they have. It is now up to us as a community to vote no and make sure this deal does not go through!
Over the last 10 years or so, we have slowly been getting rid of any of our 'benefits' for the price of a small lump sum here and there. The AAVA deal is really the last straw, let us not allow management to win, think of the bigger picture..... as ATCO's we are trained to do exactly this, so why on earth, when off radar, do many ATCO's not seem to be able to do it? Just food for thought.....
RPIplus1 - This is the kind of cynicism and division that management are hoping to get! If you have been reading this thread then you will see that there are some people like myself who do not agree with this whole thing! Speaking for myself and some of my colleagues, i know that we will certainly be a no vote for this deal. Fingers crossed we can get the 51% to reject this offer.
It has seemed for the last few weeks that the union has finally grown a pair, however, with yesterdays revelations, i am surprised at how quickly they lost that pair. A 5.2% increase on pay is nothing if we factor in met provision and in perpetuity AAVA! And so really, in my opinion, all they have done is once again fail their members at managements request. They should NOT be recommending this deal to the ATCO community. But, unfortunately they have. It is now up to us as a community to vote no and make sure this deal does not go through!
Over the last 10 years or so, we have slowly been getting rid of any of our 'benefits' for the price of a small lump sum here and there. The AAVA deal is really the last straw, let us not allow management to win, think of the bigger picture..... as ATCO's we are trained to do exactly this, so why on earth, when off radar, do many ATCO's not seem to be able to do it? Just food for thought.....
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Great deal. So those on £100,000 get roughly £5000; those on £50,000 get roughly £2500; those on £25,000 get roughly £1250. Should get the vote no problem......the majority of voters being at Band 5 units earning top dollar for very little work. Between October and March most sectors closed due drop in traffic resulting in an early-go bonanza.......obscene overtime rates towards £1000 a day.......units like the College where the greatest risk of losing a licence [for those who have one] is a low flying dry marker! Pity the poor aerodromes who yet again take the wooden spoon.....why?.....well they alone operate outside the money-printing monopoly that is NERL.
Time to reflect the possibility of a separate negotiating body to represent those below the "Elite Line". Just remember that a box of Cornflakes costs the same whichever band you're in.......Band 5's obviously need more Cornflakes.
Time to reflect the possibility of a separate negotiating body to represent those below the "Elite Line". Just remember that a box of Cornflakes costs the same whichever band you're in.......Band 5's obviously need more Cornflakes.
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9th Dan Vectors
What a post!!
The silence from that educated and passionate posting is deafening. Maybe the penny has finally dropped as to why lesser banded units have been so cheezed off with it for so long. Very few throw downs from the high and mighties since the post or could they not be bothered to read the flawed banding formula when presented so well ! O.K. so maybe it isn't totally related to the core pay deal, agreed, but what it does highlight is the way that managment can manipulate a workforce and more to the point GET AWAY WITH IT!! The highlighted point by 9th Dan which really brings it home for me was the fact that with every core pay award the gap between the bandings just becomes larger. I urge everyone to vote no !! Please just take a second to think why. It's not ATCO's being greedy wanting more, it's to prove to our bullish management that we've been divided before but not again. One deal for one workforce with NO strings 
A couple of earlier comments really concerned me. It's not about whether 5% is a descent offer or not it's the fact that we the workforce asked the union for 1 basic paydeal for all with no strings. Once again they have failed with their negotiations so far so go to the meetings and tell them that. This is after all the first offer only! Previous discussions didn't even amount to an offer.
We are a company thriving in tough times. We are a workforce that have worked extremely hard through these tough times when management pleaded with us that the company was struggling. Need I remind people of the over and above the line of duty. We are a workforce still sewing our rings up after years as Assf***ing by our management. Say no and give them somthing to think about. Vote yes and they'll be laughing at us for a long time to come.
The silence from that educated and passionate posting is deafening. Maybe the penny has finally dropped as to why lesser banded units have been so cheezed off with it for so long. Very few throw downs from the high and mighties since the post or could they not be bothered to read the flawed banding formula when presented so well ! O.K. so maybe it isn't totally related to the core pay deal, agreed, but what it does highlight is the way that managment can manipulate a workforce and more to the point GET AWAY WITH IT!!
The highlighted point by 9th Dan which really brings it home for me was the fact that with every core pay award the gap between the bandings just becomes larger. I urge everyone to vote no !! Please just take a second to think why. It's not ATCO's being greedy wanting more, it's to prove to our bullish management that we've been divided before but not again. One deal for one workforce with NO strings A couple of earlier comments really concerned me. It's not about whether 5% is a descent offer or not it's the fact that we the workforce asked the union for 1 basic paydeal for all with no strings. Once again they have failed with their negotiations so far so go to the meetings and tell them that. This is after all the first offer only! Previous discussions didn't even amount to an offer.We are a company thriving in tough times. We are a workforce that have worked extremely hard through these tough times when management pleaded with us that the company was struggling. Need I remind people of the over and above the line of duty. We are a workforce still sewing our rings up after years as Assf***ing by our management. Say no and give them somthing to think about. Vote yes and they'll be laughing at us for a long time to come.
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Latestay - thank you, i aim to please!
RPIplus1 - this is exactly the kind of cynicism and division management are hoping to achieve! Speaking for myself and some of my colleagues, i know that for us, there is only one way to vote, and that is NO! Lets just hope 51% of us can be convinced that this is not a good deal! There should most certainly not be any differences in offers, we all have the same increased living costs.... and there should certainly be no conditions attached to the pay deal. As atco's we are taught to look at the bigger picture, but in reality, off the radar, most atco's seem very uncapable of doing this. For years now we have been slowly but surely selling off all of our benefits for only small lump sum amounts, well surely the AAVA agreement is one too many? Lets grow a pair and get what we deserve - a common payrise for ALL, in line with inflation, and then negotiations on all the other conditions can begin.
I had really started to believe that the union had finally grown a pair, and then yesterdays revelation just proved otherwise! We all work to achieve the same end, and we should all be rewarded the same for this. The union has recommended this deal to the atco community, appalling! It is now up to us, we know what we need to do.....
RPIplus1 - this is exactly the kind of cynicism and division management are hoping to achieve! Speaking for myself and some of my colleagues, i know that for us, there is only one way to vote, and that is NO! Lets just hope 51% of us can be convinced that this is not a good deal! There should most certainly not be any differences in offers, we all have the same increased living costs.... and there should certainly be no conditions attached to the pay deal. As atco's we are taught to look at the bigger picture, but in reality, off the radar, most atco's seem very uncapable of doing this. For years now we have been slowly but surely selling off all of our benefits for only small lump sum amounts, well surely the AAVA agreement is one too many? Lets grow a pair and get what we deserve - a common payrise for ALL, in line with inflation, and then negotiations on all the other conditions can begin.
I had really started to believe that the union had finally grown a pair, and then yesterdays revelation just proved otherwise! We all work to achieve the same end, and we should all be rewarded the same for this. The union has recommended this deal to the atco community, appalling! It is now up to us, we know what we need to do.....
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For years now we have been slowly but surely selling off all of our benefits for only small lump sum amounts, well surely the AAVA agreement is one too many?
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MANTOVANI - My point exactly. I thought the writing in of an in perptuity AAVA agreement would raise a lot more heartrates than it has. So what, we write in an AAVA agreement for such a small margin on our pay deal, and then we have nothing to bargain with, except perhaps Annual leave. Surely this is not acceptable? Let us not get to such a weak position. We are in a very strong position right now, what with Olympics next year, IFACTS, EFD. If we wanted we could have management exactly where we want them. But we can only do this by showing a united front. Please colleagues, think of the BIGGER PICTURE!!!!
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Sadly, a few Prospect ATCO reps at Swanwick, who are either ex-management, or career wannabees, have lost all context of what trades unionism is about.
But to be dispassionate about it, as we should, we were in a position where it seemed we were going to be strong, and for literally a very small sum, we are being divided.
But to be dispassionate about it, as we should, we were in a position where it seemed we were going to be strong, and for literally a very small sum, we are being divided.
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Not a fan. Despite first year RPI plus 0.5% the restrictions in second year (cap / rise in core pay only not asap etc.) mean there is a real chance this will be a below cost of living increase. Given that the company continues to be financially strong (interim dividends) and we are potentially in a very strong negotiating position with an aava agreement which was due to end and a significant demand for overtime due to projects such as ifacts I feel we're selling ourselves a little short giving so much (aava AND met) for comparatively little.
We will not have this situation again during the next pay talks (during which I assume we'd hope again to get a cost of living increase but may not have much to sell)
If we feel we can't achieve cost of living increases without eroding ts & cs at at time when the company is making good profits then I worry for us going forward.
We will not have this situation again during the next pay talks (during which I assume we'd hope again to get a cost of living increase but may not have much to sell)
If we feel we can't achieve cost of living increases without eroding ts & cs at at time when the company is making good profits then I worry for us going forward.
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There are so many things to correct.
1. AAVA rates are NOT negotiated by Prospect. They are set by management using basic supply and demand economics.
2. If NSL vote NO. The NERL votes won't even be counted.
However, Atcos 5.2% + RPI for two years is a good deal. Ask the rest of the hard working non apathetic country.
1. AAVA rates are NOT negotiated by Prospect. They are set by management using basic supply and demand economics.
2. If NSL vote NO. The NERL votes won't even be counted.
However, Atcos 5.2% + RPI for two years is a good deal. Ask the rest of the hard working non apathetic country.
Last edited by Krait; 22nd Apr 2011 at 13:04.
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To all on here (particularly SOTB and RPI+1)
I would like to thank you and some other guys to put it into perspective, i was considering voting yes but having read all your posts, i have changed mind to a definite no. i believe in one company and everyone getting the same deal. ATCOs are needed to do the job, yes, but without ATSAs and engineers, then what would be the point of an ATCO. why is management trying to divide us? so far as i understand, i haven't gone to work today but all i ever hear about it our deal, and unless its word of mouth, i don't hear what anyone else is getting, so to me, my deal is for lack of a better word, "OK". having seen what the rest of you albeit, engineers, ATSAs or NSL, you have my vote.
i only hope that you can convince more of the rest of us ATCOs to stick together and get a GOOD deal for all, not just an OK one.
As for the comment a few pages ago about EGs.......well i will have you know i maybe get one once every 2 months. your mate wouldn't happen to be on a specific watch the colour of liverpool would they?
thanks everyone for the enlightenment.
I would like to thank you and some other guys to put it into perspective, i was considering voting yes but having read all your posts, i have changed mind to a definite no. i believe in one company and everyone getting the same deal. ATCOs are needed to do the job, yes, but without ATSAs and engineers, then what would be the point of an ATCO. why is management trying to divide us? so far as i understand, i haven't gone to work today but all i ever hear about it our deal, and unless its word of mouth, i don't hear what anyone else is getting, so to me, my deal is for lack of a better word, "OK". having seen what the rest of you albeit, engineers, ATSAs or NSL, you have my vote.
i only hope that you can convince more of the rest of us ATCOs to stick together and get a GOOD deal for all, not just an OK one.
As for the comment a few pages ago about EGs.......well i will have you know i maybe get one once every 2 months. your mate wouldn't happen to be on a specific watch the colour of liverpool would they?
thanks everyone for the enlightenment.
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Krait,
I do not believe that anyone on here is denying that 10.2% is a decent offer. What people are hacked off about is the fact we only have this offer based on the fact that we are eroding terms and conditions, and so in all real terms, the actual offer would be very low if you were to take away those t & c's, we should be getting that offer without an open ended aava agreement being written in, or met provision. And furthermore, our colleagues have been offered something lower.... this is not a fair, working together system. We should all be getting the same offer.
The problem we have with the votes, as you pointed out, if NSL vote NO, then the NERL votes will not be counted, however, given that there are more airports which will not be affected by the MET provision, and those airports are the bigger units on the whole in NSL, then worries are that the vote may still go through due to the apparent greed (that has been shown time and time again) of ATCOS. Something which management are most certainly exploiting to their upmost here!
And just as a further point, yes, the rest of the country may not be in as good a position as ourselves, i know of many people who will not get pay rises, or indeed, who are looking at taking pay cuts, however, this is a mute point in this debate, given that we work for a company who are making profits year on year due to the hard work and good will of its workforce. Surely, we should be the ones to reap some of the benefits of this profit..... without losing our pride and face by giving away so much!
I do not believe that anyone on here is denying that 10.2% is a decent offer. What people are hacked off about is the fact we only have this offer based on the fact that we are eroding terms and conditions, and so in all real terms, the actual offer would be very low if you were to take away those t & c's, we should be getting that offer without an open ended aava agreement being written in, or met provision. And furthermore, our colleagues have been offered something lower.... this is not a fair, working together system. We should all be getting the same offer.
The problem we have with the votes, as you pointed out, if NSL vote NO, then the NERL votes will not be counted, however, given that there are more airports which will not be affected by the MET provision, and those airports are the bigger units on the whole in NSL, then worries are that the vote may still go through due to the apparent greed (that has been shown time and time again) of ATCOS. Something which management are most certainly exploiting to their upmost here!
And just as a further point, yes, the rest of the country may not be in as good a position as ourselves, i know of many people who will not get pay rises, or indeed, who are looking at taking pay cuts, however, this is a mute point in this debate, given that we work for a company who are making profits year on year due to the hard work and good will of its workforce. Surely, we should be the ones to reap some of the benefits of this profit..... without losing our pride and face by giving away so much!
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Krait,
er no! 5.2% 0ver one year, then a maximum of 5% (less if RPI takes a dip) in year 2 on basic salary only and not ASAP which means less than the headline year 2 rate across total year's salary.
The lower your salary, the smaller your net year 2 payrise as ASAP makes up a larger proportion of your total take home
if year 2 RPI hit govt target of around 2-3%, then that's what we'll get next year on our basic salary only, and 0% on ASAP
er no! 5.2% 0ver one year, then a maximum of 5% (less if RPI takes a dip) in year 2 on basic salary only and not ASAP which means less than the headline year 2 rate across total year's salary.
The lower your salary, the smaller your net year 2 payrise as ASAP makes up a larger proportion of your total take home
if year 2 RPI hit govt target of around 2-3%, then that's what we'll get next year on our basic salary only, and 0% on ASAP
Last edited by hold at SATAN; 22nd Apr 2011 at 11:20.