ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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To Dub Twr,
Upon reflection, i have to say well done for letting the EIN land, a tough call in what i am sure were difficult circumstances.
While initially having been unsure as to the right or wrong of this, and wondering as to what i would have done in the same circumstances, having heard some of the more salient details, i have to say that i would have done the same - initially totally against letting him land - airport closed - end of story.
Our problems are not with the pilots, or the flying public, and for the sake of 10 - 15 mins, why make an issue of it, send them back to cork, and a bus home.
We have had a lot of support from our collegues on the other side of the MIC, and the public so why throw all that away.
All controllers in the three stations have always done their utmost to help traffic, so why change now. We are still the pro's that we were before all this started. So well done.
As for the lads tomorrow, best of luck - let us know whats what even if it is the wee small hours!!!!
Upon reflection, i have to say well done for letting the EIN land, a tough call in what i am sure were difficult circumstances.
While initially having been unsure as to the right or wrong of this, and wondering as to what i would have done in the same circumstances, having heard some of the more salient details, i have to say that i would have done the same - initially totally against letting him land - airport closed - end of story.
Our problems are not with the pilots, or the flying public, and for the sake of 10 - 15 mins, why make an issue of it, send them back to cork, and a bus home.
We have had a lot of support from our collegues on the other side of the MIC, and the public so why throw all that away.
All controllers in the three stations have always done their utmost to help traffic, so why change now. We are still the pro's that we were before all this started. So well done.
As for the lads tomorrow, best of luck - let us know whats what even if it is the wee small hours!!!!
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Clearing a flight to do anything is impossible without ATC. Therefore by definition there was an ATC service if a clearance was issued.
Landing at an Airport Notamed as closed would be a whole different can of worms..........an MOR being one requirement regardless of any good intentions.
Is MOL just going to ignore the NOTAMs and send all the flights anyway because once they are overhead then no one is going to disadvantage those people wanting to get home now are they?
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PPrune Radar,
I know but if you had a Tower positon (not busy) and a radar position (not busy either) do you think that you could staff those for 8 hours with 3 dual validated ATCO's on a shift? Well the IAA would require a minimum of 5 - 2 in tower, 2 staffing the sector and 1 "contingency" / break give...........and they still struggle for breaks.
Expand that across several positions and a picture builds up.........not a picture that many would like others to see.
You are thinking from a UK point of view - as an example many LACC sectors may have enhanced relief but they do not have full splits and T/P plus ATCO's to give all those people breaks when it is not very busy. If they operated like that during the quite times then imagine the chaos with the roster.
Imagine Heathrow approach working fully split H24. Would they need overtime? Would anyone ever dare suggest such an idea.
Not many early go's then?
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(My Highlights)
Sounds like a dash back to the civil service days.
Did I not say somewhere ages ago that there would be no change or as it says above - rosters are guaranteed to be no worse than they currently and that the overtime complaints are mostly about money or as it is so nicely put - Applied to overtime - wait until the price offered for your services is so high you can't possibly refuse
Companies are under no obligation to give employees the leave they want when they want. The company is entitled to dictate when leave is taken provide that it is given in accordance with the statutary requirements........which are a lot worse than what is currently available.
Regards,
DFC
Landing at an Airport Notamed as closed would be a whole different can of worms..........an MOR being one requirement regardless of any good intentions.
Is MOL just going to ignore the NOTAMs and send all the flights anyway because once they are overhead then no one is going to disadvantage those people wanting to get home now are they?
--------------
PPrune Radar,
I know but if you had a Tower positon (not busy) and a radar position (not busy either) do you think that you could staff those for 8 hours with 3 dual validated ATCO's on a shift? Well the IAA would require a minimum of 5 - 2 in tower, 2 staffing the sector and 1 "contingency" / break give...........and they still struggle for breaks.
Expand that across several positions and a picture builds up.........not a picture that many would like others to see.
You are thinking from a UK point of view - as an example many LACC sectors may have enhanced relief but they do not have full splits and T/P plus ATCO's to give all those people breaks when it is not very busy. If they operated like that during the quite times then imagine the chaos with the roster.
Imagine Heathrow approach working fully split H24. Would they need overtime? Would anyone ever dare suggest such an idea.
Not many early go's then?
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Applied to leave - wait until there is a guarantee of a minimum amount of leave to all staff per day (within reason of course!). This includes Annual, Parental and Maternity leave (the only guaranteed leave at the moment together with Sick leave!). Maybe even hold out for some of those 'family friendly policies' like Job Sharing, Career breaks and Unpaid Leave.
Applied to Working hours - wait until rosters are guaranteed to be no worse than they currently are and that fatigue breaks are always applied in every station.
Applied to overtime - wait until the price offered for your services is so high you can't possibly refuse.
Applied to Working hours - wait until rosters are guaranteed to be no worse than they currently are and that fatigue breaks are always applied in every station.
Applied to overtime - wait until the price offered for your services is so high you can't possibly refuse.
Sounds like a dash back to the civil service days.
Did I not say somewhere ages ago that there would be no change or as it says above - rosters are guaranteed to be no worse than they currently and that the overtime complaints are mostly about money or as it is so nicely put - Applied to overtime - wait until the price offered for your services is so high you can't possibly refuse
Companies are under no obligation to give employees the leave they want when they want. The company is entitled to dictate when leave is taken provide that it is given in accordance with the statutary requirements........which are a lot worse than what is currently available.
Regards,
DFC
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keep it together
First of all, dub twr job well done and enough of this crap, we are only playing into mismanagement hands with bickering.
Good luck to the executive on tues, we have all the cards but I personally think that mismanagement will attempt to attract us with a well below par offer, I am sure the union is well aware of how staff will vote on something half baked and advise the accountants of such.
good luck guys
Good luck to the executive on tues, we have all the cards but I personally think that mismanagement will attempt to attract us with a well below par offer, I am sure the union is well aware of how staff will vote on something half baked and advise the accountants of such.
good luck guys
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stick together
it is great to see all the staff sticking together i havent heard one person who is not fully in agreement with industrial action
if management want to play hardball, so what.... the summer is coming and all we have to do is work our roster and we will see how long the accountants can keep the place from becoming a mess........
come on!!!
ps since 2002...no new staff....why??
6 years staff....24 trainees per year= 144 trainees @250,000 each to train= 34million euro....no wonder the Iaa are loaded!!
if management want to play hardball, so what.... the summer is coming and all we have to do is work our roster and we will see how long the accountants can keep the place from becoming a mess........
come on!!!
ps since 2002...no new staff....why??
6 years staff....24 trainees per year= 144 trainees @250,000 each to train= 34million euro....no wonder the Iaa are loaded!!
Last edited by enoughisenough; 19th Feb 2008 at 01:32.
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DFCs modern HR
Companies are under no obligation to give employees the leave they want when they want. The company is entitled to dictate when leave is taken provide that it is given in accordance with the statutary requirements........which are a lot worse than what is currently available.
Dismissing items important to employees, such as access to leave, is indicitive of a dinosaur management culture. A self-destructive, poisonous culture doomed to failure, and the failure of those who espouse it (often, sadly, they don't know any different). But I'm sure you knew that, DFC. Right?
Last edited by ferris; 18th Feb 2008 at 23:08.
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6 years staff....24 trainees per year= 146 trainees @250,000 each to train= 34million euro....no wonder the Iaa are loaded!!
He can recruit 24 controllers each month for 6 months and end up with 146 direct entry controllers who are then paid 250,000 each and still only spend 34 million.
Obvously the saving of 2 or 2.5 million depending on how you look at it would be spent on the years of overtime it took them to come up with that idea.
I hope the Union are better at their sums!!
Regards,
DFC
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DFC Wrong again, facts not important to you ?
Companies are under no obligation to give employees the leave they want when they want. The company is entitled to dictate when leave is taken provide that it is given in accordance with the statutary requirements........which are a lot worse than what is currently available.
i know you're trying to make a killer point - get some FACTS not unqualified opinions. Why dont you PM me with your next post, i'll run over it and correct your errors. good boy
see you next tuesday
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DFC I agree with some of your points. Obviously this will only be sorted out by some sort of overtime arrangement. New controllers cannot be produced instantly. Staff have been aware of this for at least three years. Management have let it come this point. Why should staff not drive a hard bargain for overtime rates and refuse to work more hours than we already do?
When it comes to leave the IAA cannot provide the obliged leave no matter when they dictated it must be taken - even on Rest days they expect you to work. They also try to remove any unused A/L from staff at the end of the year - nobody should be treated like that. Imagine the luxury of actually getting your allocated leave - to actually get some leave when you would like it would be like winning the lottery!
This is the frustration that is driving us.
As for your points about levels of staffing in certain positions and at certain times - again I agree with you. There are times of the year and days of the week when full staffing is not required at all positions. But our management don't have the sense to use this surplus to provide leave or to carry out training or projects. They roster the same staff numbers for 0630 on a Sunday in November as for 0630 on a Friday in July. How many airlines do that?
As I said, IAA, show some imagination and courage.
When it comes to leave the IAA cannot provide the obliged leave no matter when they dictated it must be taken - even on Rest days they expect you to work. They also try to remove any unused A/L from staff at the end of the year - nobody should be treated like that. Imagine the luxury of actually getting your allocated leave - to actually get some leave when you would like it would be like winning the lottery!
This is the frustration that is driving us.
As for your points about levels of staffing in certain positions and at certain times - again I agree with you. There are times of the year and days of the week when full staffing is not required at all positions. But our management don't have the sense to use this surplus to provide leave or to carry out training or projects. They roster the same staff numbers for 0630 on a Sunday in November as for 0630 on a Friday in July. How many airlines do that?
As I said, IAA, show some imagination and courage.
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10/28 you should by now realise that there is no sympathy for you or your point of view so give it a break or find somewhere else to whinge.
Quote PPRuNe Radar
"This is a one time warning to everyone. Postings which identify individuals (either by name or description or reputation) will be summarily deleted"
I think the BIG mistake we're all making here is that we expect management to think like we do, we're problem solvers, we see a problem and we solve it whilst at the same time factoring for problems that might arise.
Management are Accountants, as long as the bottom line stays healthy and the user charges stay dirt cheap they don't care.
Give 'em Hell today lads.
Quote PPRuNe Radar
"This is a one time warning to everyone. Postings which identify individuals (either by name or description or reputation) will be summarily deleted"
I think the BIG mistake we're all making here is that we expect management to think like we do, we're problem solvers, we see a problem and we solve it whilst at the same time factoring for problems that might arise.
Management are Accountants, as long as the bottom line stays healthy and the user charges stay dirt cheap they don't care.
Give 'em Hell today lads.
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Hey, its like a 12 step programme!
Step 1 is getting them to admit they have a problem, thats the hard part.
Step 2 is getting them to accept that we have the solution.. next to impossible i suspect!!
Step 1 is getting them to admit they have a problem, thats the hard part.
Step 2 is getting them to accept that we have the solution.. next to impossible i suspect!!
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I suppose even artificial intelligence would be better than the stupidity of management lately.
Thats unfair to AI though, AI learns from its mistakes.
Thats unfair to AI though, AI learns from its mistakes.
Last edited by norby; 19th Feb 2008 at 09:23.
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:Youre right.!!!!
It's all so clear now.
Management have been screwing us for years in an attempt to breed SUPER CONTROLLERS.
The constant overtime is a Darwinian attempt to weed out the weak ones.....
Cue x files music
It's all so clear now.
Management have been screwing us for years in an attempt to breed SUPER CONTROLLERS.
The constant overtime is a Darwinian attempt to weed out the weak ones.....
Cue x files music
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Youre right.!!!!
It's all so clear now.
Management have been screwing us for years in an attempt to breed SUPER CONTROLLERS.
The constant overtime is a Darwinian attempt to weed out the weak ones.....
Cue x files music
It's all so clear now.
Management have been screwing us for years in an attempt to breed SUPER CONTROLLERS.
The constant overtime is a Darwinian attempt to weed out the weak ones.....
Cue x files music
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10/28
10/28, I've just read your, by now, imfamous posts, as their legacy resound through the halls of our ACC.
Words fail to describe the utter distain that I, and many other feel towards you.
The ATCOs that night did what they felt to be the best thing given the hand they had been dealt.
Any decisions that were taken by them were taken on the grounds of safety. When dealing with live traffic this can be the only consideration. Our current industrial relations situation cannot be dragged into live traffic situations.
Our ATCOs had to make a call on the grounds of safety that night. Is it safer to land or divert?
Remember, as soon as an aircraft is diverted from it's original flight, it's safe passage begins to erode. Fuel and familiarity with the alternate become potent considerations. Pilot workload increases. This is no longer a routine flight.
There is a tangible safety factor in any diversionary decision, and the AMC that night would have had a far greater insight into that than most other ATCOs.
The ATCOs that night took the decision to allow the flight to continue in the safest manner. They kept this flight as safe as the situation would allow, given the hand they had been dealt.
The safety of our live traffic is paramount. I would have done exactly the same as my esteemed colleagues. It would have been pure instinct to know that this was the safest option, and no IR situation would have diverted me from this course.
10/28, if you are a controller, remember when you work live traffic you are a controller first, a union member second, conduct all live traffic in the safest possible manner and leave IR matters for another time.
I do hope that you have to face the same situation, so that those lowly ATCOs that you find so offensive, can bow to your superior decision making skills.
Words fail to describe the utter distain that I, and many other feel towards you.
The ATCOs that night did what they felt to be the best thing given the hand they had been dealt.
Any decisions that were taken by them were taken on the grounds of safety. When dealing with live traffic this can be the only consideration. Our current industrial relations situation cannot be dragged into live traffic situations.
Our ATCOs had to make a call on the grounds of safety that night. Is it safer to land or divert?
Remember, as soon as an aircraft is diverted from it's original flight, it's safe passage begins to erode. Fuel and familiarity with the alternate become potent considerations. Pilot workload increases. This is no longer a routine flight.
There is a tangible safety factor in any diversionary decision, and the AMC that night would have had a far greater insight into that than most other ATCOs.
The ATCOs that night took the decision to allow the flight to continue in the safest manner. They kept this flight as safe as the situation would allow, given the hand they had been dealt.
The safety of our live traffic is paramount. I would have done exactly the same as my esteemed colleagues. It would have been pure instinct to know that this was the safest option, and no IR situation would have diverted me from this course.
10/28, if you are a controller, remember when you work live traffic you are a controller first, a union member second, conduct all live traffic in the safest possible manner and leave IR matters for another time.
I do hope that you have to face the same situation, so that those lowly ATCOs that you find so offensive, can bow to your superior decision making skills.
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Ryanair ATC Jobs
Forget the IAA lads, Ryanair are recruiting ATCOS.
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....=gen-en-180208
Peter Sherrard, Communications Manager for Ryanair is offering the following for Atcos
* Average pay of €108,000 p.a. plus a 32% pension contributions which equates to €142,000 p.a.
* Average annual leave of 37 days (over 7 weeks)
* A 30 minute break every 2 hours worked
* Overtime rate of €102 per hour or €800 per day
* 15% pay increase just to volunteer to go on an overtime list
* a 50% increase in the overtime rate from €102 per hour to €150 per hour an overtime rate of €1,200 for an eight hour day
8 hour days - luxury!
Dont know bout you, but this seems to be a great contract.
I'm sending my cv to Mr Sherrard, so that he can pass it onto the HR department, or you can send it direct to
[email protected]
Tell them Peter sent you, best of luck
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....=gen-en-180208
Peter Sherrard, Communications Manager for Ryanair is offering the following for Atcos
* Average pay of €108,000 p.a. plus a 32% pension contributions which equates to €142,000 p.a.
* Average annual leave of 37 days (over 7 weeks)
* A 30 minute break every 2 hours worked
* Overtime rate of €102 per hour or €800 per day
* 15% pay increase just to volunteer to go on an overtime list
* a 50% increase in the overtime rate from €102 per hour to €150 per hour an overtime rate of €1,200 for an eight hour day
8 hour days - luxury!
Dont know bout you, but this seems to be a great contract.
I'm sending my cv to Mr Sherrard, so that he can pass it onto the HR department, or you can send it direct to
[email protected]
Tell them Peter sent you, best of luck
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Ryanair rantings
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....=gen-en-180208
All interested parties who have been concerned at the comments released by the IAA should review the press release posted on the Ryanair website 18/02/08 Title: Ryanair Calls for an end to the Air Traffic Controllers' "Blue Flu" Scam
I am unfamiliar with Ryanair's previous postings and general attitude towards ATC, but I can guess that it is easier to attack overworked, underpaid and misrepresented professionals than the organisation which has allowed the situation to arise.
In defence of accountants; I am an accountant, but I have an understanding that the bottom line is not always achieved by restricting your ability to function as a business. Some of us are trained to have a longer term view of an organisation and how it can provide for the future and maximise profit by delivering a service.
Best wishes for Super Tuesday.
All interested parties who have been concerned at the comments released by the IAA should review the press release posted on the Ryanair website 18/02/08 Title: Ryanair Calls for an end to the Air Traffic Controllers' "Blue Flu" Scam
I am unfamiliar with Ryanair's previous postings and general attitude towards ATC, but I can guess that it is easier to attack overworked, underpaid and misrepresented professionals than the organisation which has allowed the situation to arise.
In defence of accountants; I am an accountant, but I have an understanding that the bottom line is not always achieved by restricting your ability to function as a business. Some of us are trained to have a longer term view of an organisation and how it can provide for the future and maximise profit by delivering a service.
Best wishes for Super Tuesday.