NATS UK ATCO Pay offer: What do you think?
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You forgot to mention that students will not get any UHP/NOS/whatever the real acronym is no matter what position they are UNTIL they are actually valid. So they will be working nights/bank holidays/530am spins/late afternoons/weekends/christmas/easter etc on the basic pay only.
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IDEA CONCERNING THE SAMOS ISSUE
Now that it is abundently clear where things are heading with ATCO's replacing the ATSA's providing MET OBS, may I suggest those ATCO's at Airports that really are concerned about the lose of ATSAs to make a strong statement in the following way.....
ATCO'S who agreed to provide Met Contingency should withdraw from the scheme and force a re evaluation of the whole SAMOS issue.
Yes, it may cost a few pounds from ones salary but lets be honest, they aren't paying us that much to begin with! I believe it would force management to drop the ATCO SAMOS condition from the Pay Deal.
Someone needs to make a start so guess I'm gonna be the sacraficial lamb. We need to do more than just talk a good fight. I hope some of you out there will do the same. If it is dropped from Pay Deal we can agree to night contingency again. If not, at least we have made our feelings strongly felt and sent a clear signal to management.
Now that it is abundently clear where things are heading with ATCO's replacing the ATSA's providing MET OBS, may I suggest those ATCO's at Airports that really are concerned about the lose of ATSAs to make a strong statement in the following way.....
ATCO'S who agreed to provide Met Contingency should withdraw from the scheme and force a re evaluation of the whole SAMOS issue.
Yes, it may cost a few pounds from ones salary but lets be honest, they aren't paying us that much to begin with! I believe it would force management to drop the ATCO SAMOS condition from the Pay Deal.
Someone needs to make a start so guess I'm gonna be the sacraficial lamb. We need to do more than just talk a good fight. I hope some of you out there will do the same. If it is dropped from Pay Deal we can agree to night contingency again. If not, at least we have made our feelings strongly felt and sent a clear signal to management.
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As a non-SAMOS Unit ATCO, you won't ever be in receipt of the additional 2% , so therefore I, for one, am asking you to consider the impact your 'yes' vote is going to have on the ATCOs, and most particularly the ATSAs, at stations where SAMOS is in place and is an issue of concern.
If you (and others) still vote yes for the pay offer as it stands, then the likelihood is that a number of Aerodrome ATSAs will end up losing their jobs because of it - time for a 'co-worker loyalty reality check' perhaps?
I know money is king, but I'd like to think that even in this self centred, me-me-me day and age, certain (old-fashioned?)principles will still hold firm.
If you (and others) still vote yes for the pay offer as it stands, then the likelihood is that a number of Aerodrome ATSAs will end up losing their jobs because of it - time for a 'co-worker loyalty reality check' perhaps?
I know money is king, but I'd like to think that even in this self centred, me-me-me day and age, certain (old-fashioned?)principles will still hold firm.
Personally I'll be voting in the negative anyway irrespective of the ATSA issue. Not that it'll make much difference 'cos the Band 4/5 units will always have an unfair advantage in 'democratic' votes of this nature.
Well said jonny & White,
If you greedy lot vote for deals like this that screw the lowest paid of the team and put people out of work you will not be doing yourselves any favours either. IF management can encourage people to work for such tiny starting salaries and keep whittling away at our time off work (thats another extra 2% extra days worked per year) then what message does that give them for the future?
Please vote no.
If you greedy lot vote for deals like this that screw the lowest paid of the team and put people out of work you will not be doing yourselves any favours either. IF management can encourage people to work for such tiny starting salaries and keep whittling away at our time off work (thats another extra 2% extra days worked per year) then what message does that give them for the future?
Please vote no.
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Ok so as a student, what do i get or more importantly LOSE with this deal.
According to some of the blurb, TATC's and T&D scales will be reduced from March 2006.
Does this mean that being at the college (after the initial reduction) working my socks off i'm gonna lose out when i leave the college (AGAIN!!!!!)
How are TATCs supposed to live down here when the cost of rent etc is so high - Are NATS going to supply accomodation or do you pick up a tent when you go to the induction week???
Nobody explains anything to students!! Go on give us a clue
Rant Over
According to some of the blurb, TATC's and T&D scales will be reduced from March 2006.
Does this mean that being at the college (after the initial reduction) working my socks off i'm gonna lose out when i leave the college (AGAIN!!!!!)
How are TATCs supposed to live down here when the cost of rent etc is so high - Are NATS going to supply accomodation or do you pick up a tent when you go to the induction week???
Nobody explains anything to students!! Go on give us a clue
Rant Over
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The Centre Effect
Previous deals have been pushed through by voting power at the Centres. NATS could have shot themselves in the foot this time; the deal is appalling, and the use of non-op days means that in real terms I am funding my own pay-rise. There is real and identifiable strategy to divide the ATCO workforce into "us" and "them" i.e. ATCO1 and above as management, and the rest as workers.
Vote NO....some things are more important than money.
Vote NO....some things are more important than money.
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tired-flyboy, if you have already started at the college then no need to panic, you will follow the current scale you are on and it may even increase by the percentages in both January's. You should also receive UHP once posted to a unit. The new student pay will be given to those that haven't started yet and haven't been given a contract, so basically the course in March time.
Many collegues I've spoken to have uttered the "no" word once or twice too, don't be too fearful of the centres this time.....
Many collegues I've spoken to have uttered the "no" word once or twice too, don't be too fearful of the centres this time.....
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. - If a trainee fails to validate at a unit because they are not good enough, then do not back pay them for non productive years when they eventually do validate somewhere.
This alone would save millions, it is an absolute scandal that NATS rewards failure with a big 'bonus'. As you rightly pointed out, what benefit is there to validate in quick time? Yet we all know people who have had tens of thousands of pounds in backpay because they failed at one unit then validated at another.
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What about the units that already have SAMOS and have been using it for ages?
What about the inevitable introduction of FAMOS? because it's coming.............. whether you like it or not.
So,you might as well take 2% before you have no choice.
Can I just urge caution for everyone. Who will negotiate this deal if it is a NO vote? Your current PROSPECT BEC won't be involved that's for certain.
What WILL you settle for? Almost double RPI over 3 years is the offer - without giving up much. Baron has always said that you get nothing for giving up nothing. He also says that NATS is run for profit now. The good old days are gone. PROSPECT could get you alot more money but you would have to do alot more work. Make your choice boys (and girls)
As for cutting students pay. As someone involved in the recruitment process I can tell you that some candidates are astonished that they are being paid at all to be trained. Compare it to flying training......... There is a strong argument that we may just get better motivated candidates who aren't here for the cash.
I suspect I shall get a bit of grief for all this. Merry Xmas.
What about the inevitable introduction of FAMOS? because it's coming.............. whether you like it or not.
So,you might as well take 2% before you have no choice.
Can I just urge caution for everyone. Who will negotiate this deal if it is a NO vote? Your current PROSPECT BEC won't be involved that's for certain.
What WILL you settle for? Almost double RPI over 3 years is the offer - without giving up much. Baron has always said that you get nothing for giving up nothing. He also says that NATS is run for profit now. The good old days are gone. PROSPECT could get you alot more money but you would have to do alot more work. Make your choice boys (and girls)
As for cutting students pay. As someone involved in the recruitment process I can tell you that some candidates are astonished that they are being paid at all to be trained. Compare it to flying training......... There is a strong argument that we may just get better motivated candidates who aren't here for the cash.
I suspect I shall get a bit of grief for all this. Merry Xmas.
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Bobblehat
'So,you might as well take 2% before you have no choice.'
At least we know where YOUR loyalties lie
With regard to your ATSA colleagues, I also have no doubt that you will continue to hide behind a cloak of anonimity should the 'yes' vote prevail
Big enough to say it on here, but at work ........ ???
'So,you might as well take 2% before you have no choice.'
At least we know where YOUR loyalties lie
With regard to your ATSA colleagues, I also have no doubt that you will continue to hide behind a cloak of anonimity should the 'yes' vote prevail
Big enough to say it on here, but at work ........ ???
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Whitehart,
Unfortunately, it is naive to work on the basis that if we vote no to this deal that SAMOS won't be introduced at the airfields (will the ones already doing it stop all of a sudden??)
Don't confuse people that this vote is about loyalty to ATSA's - this will happen regardless of the outcome. You can't stop progress and cost savings, particularly in a company that has to save 50m quid in the next 5 years.
It's xmas - i don't want a fight........
Unfortunately, it is naive to work on the basis that if we vote no to this deal that SAMOS won't be introduced at the airfields (will the ones already doing it stop all of a sudden??)
Don't confuse people that this vote is about loyalty to ATSA's - this will happen regardless of the outcome. You can't stop progress and cost savings, particularly in a company that has to save 50m quid in the next 5 years.
It's xmas - i don't want a fight........
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BOBBLEHAT
Interesting last sentence.....
We did not ask for pay negotiations to run Jan-Dec, that agreement played into management hands hook-line-and-sinker.
The pay offer is structured around the financial year anyway, with the April percentage kick-in.
Clever management [pay negotiation management course human factors level 5] anticipate that with a mid-December salary payment and a huge gap to fill before a January salary payment coupled with those hideous post-Christmas bills, that a yes vote is likely for just about anything.
If you have any doubts as to the harmony between the union and management I ask you to recall the "Bill and Joe" show on radio 4 some time ago...never again please!
-As for the need to save £50million over 5 years----don't cloud the issue ---it took me 15 minutes and a calculator to save £63million over 3 years.
We did not ask for pay negotiations to run Jan-Dec, that agreement played into management hands hook-line-and-sinker.
The pay offer is structured around the financial year anyway, with the April percentage kick-in.
Clever management [pay negotiation management course human factors level 5] anticipate that with a mid-December salary payment and a huge gap to fill before a January salary payment coupled with those hideous post-Christmas bills, that a yes vote is likely for just about anything.
If you have any doubts as to the harmony between the union and management I ask you to recall the "Bill and Joe" show on radio 4 some time ago...never again please!
-As for the need to save £50million over 5 years----don't cloud the issue ---it took me 15 minutes and a calculator to save £63million over 3 years.
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BobbleHat
Remember, the company is set up as 2 individual 'companies'. It is not the airports that are required to make masive savings under CP2 now is it? Any savings made under SAMOS will not count towards the 50 million. . Strange that the area that needs to make the savings is the sector recieving the greatest pay rises and perks.
Remember, the company is set up as 2 individual 'companies'. It is not the airports that are required to make masive savings under CP2 now is it? Any savings made under SAMOS will not count towards the 50 million. . Strange that the area that needs to make the savings is the sector recieving the greatest pay rises and perks.
Thread Starter
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Gutted.
Wrote a massive reply about all the issues discussed.
Previewed reply
ing lost everything
More angry about that than this pay deal at the moment!!!
I will re-do it when I have stopped fuming and kicking the dog!!
Wrote a massive reply about all the issues discussed.
Previewed reply
ing lost everythingMore angry about that than this pay deal at the moment!!!
I will re-do it when I have stopped fuming and kicking the dog!!
On the issue of ATCO's verifying SAMOS met obs; when are the ATCO's going to be sent on Met Observer Courses when we can't all get our leave in anyway 'cos we're perenially short staffed. What sort of timescale are we talking about for the takeover. Do management realise how much a Met Observer Course costs including allowances?
NB For those Area bods who don't know, SAMOS obs. need to be verified by a person who is also a qualified Met Observer.
NB For those Area bods who don't know, SAMOS obs. need to be verified by a person who is also a qualified Met Observer.
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bobblehat
'Don't confuse people that this vote is about loyalty to ATSA's ...'
Why should asking fellow workers for support be 'confusing'? Except to you, maybe?
My point is that Prospect has made our position exceedingly difficult by adopting this tactic. The long and short of it is that, in the event of a 'yes' vote, people I neither know, see, nor work with, will ultimately influence the future for the ATSAs at Heathrow and other stations. In exchange for a pittance, you, and many like you (who will not even be involved in Aerodrome SAMOS) are being asked to agree in principle to take over some of our tasks, thereby opening the door for Management to reduce the ATSA workforce - are you honestly telling us all on here that this is fair and above board? So presumably, if it were to happen to you, then you're OK with it, too? Yeah, right..
You should be adult enough
to see and understand our predicament. To come on here and tell all you might as well just take the 2%, and thus consign a number of ATSAs to a very uncertain future, and then have the gall to say that I am 'confusing the issue' when looking for support ... well, what the hell did you expect me to say in response to that crass line of thought?
You would do well to take time out to ask yourself if you REALLY would like to be facing the same situation as we are at this moment?
No, I didn't think so
'Don't confuse people that this vote is about loyalty to ATSA's ...'
Why should asking fellow workers for support be 'confusing'? Except to you, maybe?
My point is that Prospect has made our position exceedingly difficult by adopting this tactic. The long and short of it is that, in the event of a 'yes' vote, people I neither know, see, nor work with, will ultimately influence the future for the ATSAs at Heathrow and other stations. In exchange for a pittance, you, and many like you (who will not even be involved in Aerodrome SAMOS) are being asked to agree in principle to take over some of our tasks, thereby opening the door for Management to reduce the ATSA workforce - are you honestly telling us all on here that this is fair and above board? So presumably, if it were to happen to you, then you're OK with it, too? Yeah, right..
You should be adult enough
to see and understand our predicament. To come on here and tell all you might as well just take the 2%, and thus consign a number of ATSAs to a very uncertain future, and then have the gall to say that I am 'confusing the issue' when looking for support ... well, what the hell did you expect me to say in response to that crass line of thought?You would do well to take time out to ask yourself if you REALLY would like to be facing the same situation as we are at this moment?
No, I didn't think so
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As a non nats guy watching this argument it seems to me that 10% over three years looks pretty generous (as someone pointed out it's around double the inflation rate).
Also,didn't you all vote to accept privatisation three or four years ago? Surely (and apologies if that's not the case) it can't be too surprising that nats is now trying to 'trim' the pay/perks/staff in exactly the way several people warned they would when privatisation took place.
Welcome to the outside world.
Also,didn't you all vote to accept privatisation three or four years ago? Surely (and apologies if that's not the case) it can't be too surprising that nats is now trying to 'trim' the pay/perks/staff in exactly the way several people warned they would when privatisation took place.
Welcome to the outside world.