Today at EDI and always....
Benedictus
Ta for that ,seems we are broadly in agreement about the need for radical change . Too bad no-one further up the tree seems to be listening .
As i mentioned earlier , maybe they will when the customer starts demanding some money back.
NF
Ta for that ,seems we are broadly in agreement about the need for radical change . Too bad no-one further up the tree seems to be listening .
As i mentioned earlier , maybe they will when the customer starts demanding some money back.
NF
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Having started this thread a while ago, it seems I am not the only one that feels that EDI ATC needs to start adapting to their ever increasing workload. The new tower is a realistic step in the right direction.
What worries me at the moment is the attitude of some controllers, with defensive answers to a real problem. The problem isn't just ours as pilots but theirs as well.
The way BF has been related to here and the way he was just not given the answers to his genuine questions, goes in the same bag.
Regarding other comments about "nor can do" attitude, I wholeheartedly agree with the poster. It is just a huge pain in the ar$e to try and do a day's work efficiently from EDI when all this negativity is going on.
The place is clearly being run slowly and inefficiently and needs to wake up and smell the coffee. We operate all over the place and have the right tools/gauges to compare EDI with any other airport in Europe, but our comments, which could be taken as a free of charge market survey, with a few suggestions therein, seems to be falling on deaf ears or being attacked by defensive attitudes.
We are your customers, we need change, you need to listen and provide. Simple. Make an effort. Place jets before turboprops, use gaps efficiently, predict well ahead, expedite where need be and let us do our 4 sectors on time.
mmmmmmmmmmmoist
What worries me at the moment is the attitude of some controllers, with defensive answers to a real problem. The problem isn't just ours as pilots but theirs as well.
The way BF has been related to here and the way he was just not given the answers to his genuine questions, goes in the same bag.
Regarding other comments about "nor can do" attitude, I wholeheartedly agree with the poster. It is just a huge pain in the ar$e to try and do a day's work efficiently from EDI when all this negativity is going on.
The place is clearly being run slowly and inefficiently and needs to wake up and smell the coffee. We operate all over the place and have the right tools/gauges to compare EDI with any other airport in Europe, but our comments, which could be taken as a free of charge market survey, with a few suggestions therein, seems to be falling on deaf ears or being attacked by defensive attitudes.
We are your customers, we need change, you need to listen and provide. Simple. Make an effort. Place jets before turboprops, use gaps efficiently, predict well ahead, expedite where need be and let us do our 4 sectors on time.
mmmmmmmmmmmoist
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Place jets before turboprops,
At least props can keep the speed well up until well in on approach 
Which will help this airfield pack them in 
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PR,
Yes but can they do 330kts 20 miles out???
I believe sequencing gets slower if a TP is ahead, but the last 6 or 7 miles where it could be faster than a jet. So all in all can you as a controller work out which should be put first, what would be more expeditious?
cheers - mmmmmmmmoist
Yes but can they do 330kts 20 miles out???
I believe sequencing gets slower if a TP is ahead, but the last 6 or 7 miles where it could be faster than a jet. So all in all can you as a controller work out which should be put first, what would be more expeditious?
cheers - mmmmmmmmoist
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I've been sitting in the background reading this but I feel it's time to reply now.
I don't think anyone is under any illusion, pilot or ATC, that the Scottish TMA needs an overhaul. The SID's were designed at a time when expedition wasn't key, as there weren't enough aircraft for it to make any difference, the airspace was designed at a similar time with rules and regs to fit and the fact that (I think) Scottish centre still work on a 14" portable TV for the TMA makes keeping things tight almost impossible!
The infrastructure at EDI is far from ideal, new taxiways do help, however, the question about RET's was nothing to do with ATC, I believe they weren't built as the distance between the runway and the Alpha taxiway is not wide enough to allow space for the RET and then a suitable turn onto the taxiway. The new tower will also improve matters, but wil not necessarily solve the majority of our problems.
Stand occupancy offers further problems, it's not something that ATC have any control over but have to react to as it happens. Holding for stands is becoming commonplace and can be frustatrating from an ATC point of view when, between the aerodrome authority and airline companies it is decided that aircraft should hold for particular stands when there are vacant stands, all for the price of a bus! Furthermore, the already stretched Operations department is being further depleted thus impacting on the whole expedition of the airfield.
"Make an effort. Place jets before turboprops, use gaps efficiently, predict well ahead, expedite where need be......"
I just wonder what Moist thinks I spent 2+ years training to do, and try to do each shift to the best of my ability.
Moist also mentioned that it might be a good idea to plan ahead and put props behind jets for departure, good thinking Batman, I wish I'd thought of that...... only thing is, where do you decide to stop farming out jets at the expense of a prop? They have to depart somewhere and pay for our service just like the jets do, so why should they be delayed more than any other? If you were a prop driver do you think you'd be happy watching a stream of jets depart while you waited for a 'gap'? I can think of a particular BA Dash8 driver that would have immediate complaints.
You have to remember that your TCAS doesn't show you everything, I don't remember seeing slot times for other aircraft, the need to vacate a particular stand, aircraft tech problems and the like appear on it last time I did a fam flight....... (any offers??)
That said, I'm by no means saying we're perfect but we try. If feedback on forums such as this was a little more educated and constructive then you might find that the ATC workforce may be a little less defensive and more likely to take on board your comments.
Feel free to visit, there's always a seat and a spare headset.....
I don't think anyone is under any illusion, pilot or ATC, that the Scottish TMA needs an overhaul. The SID's were designed at a time when expedition wasn't key, as there weren't enough aircraft for it to make any difference, the airspace was designed at a similar time with rules and regs to fit and the fact that (I think) Scottish centre still work on a 14" portable TV for the TMA makes keeping things tight almost impossible!
The infrastructure at EDI is far from ideal, new taxiways do help, however, the question about RET's was nothing to do with ATC, I believe they weren't built as the distance between the runway and the Alpha taxiway is not wide enough to allow space for the RET and then a suitable turn onto the taxiway. The new tower will also improve matters, but wil not necessarily solve the majority of our problems.
Stand occupancy offers further problems, it's not something that ATC have any control over but have to react to as it happens. Holding for stands is becoming commonplace and can be frustatrating from an ATC point of view when, between the aerodrome authority and airline companies it is decided that aircraft should hold for particular stands when there are vacant stands, all for the price of a bus! Furthermore, the already stretched Operations department is being further depleted thus impacting on the whole expedition of the airfield.
"Make an effort. Place jets before turboprops, use gaps efficiently, predict well ahead, expedite where need be......"
I just wonder what Moist thinks I spent 2+ years training to do, and try to do each shift to the best of my ability.
Moist also mentioned that it might be a good idea to plan ahead and put props behind jets for departure, good thinking Batman, I wish I'd thought of that...... only thing is, where do you decide to stop farming out jets at the expense of a prop? They have to depart somewhere and pay for our service just like the jets do, so why should they be delayed more than any other? If you were a prop driver do you think you'd be happy watching a stream of jets depart while you waited for a 'gap'? I can think of a particular BA Dash8 driver that would have immediate complaints.
You have to remember that your TCAS doesn't show you everything, I don't remember seeing slot times for other aircraft, the need to vacate a particular stand, aircraft tech problems and the like appear on it last time I did a fam flight....... (any offers??)
That said, I'm by no means saying we're perfect but we try. If feedback on forums such as this was a little more educated and constructive then you might find that the ATC workforce may be a little less defensive and more likely to take on board your comments.
Feel free to visit, there's always a seat and a spare headset.....
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<<Yes but can they do 330kts 20 miles out???>>
And who wants to do 330kts 20 miles out? No pilot I ever met in 31+ years of controlling at Heathrow. You don't need that sort of speed to land lots of jets.
And who wants to do 330kts 20 miles out? No pilot I ever met in 31+ years of controlling at Heathrow. You don't need that sort of speed to land lots of jets.
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Moist,
Just read your latest rant.......
20 miles from the field, that's below FL 100 in Class D orE airspace isn't it??
I always thought that 250kts below FL100 was standard unless, quoting our manual:
"in Class D airspace when authorised by an air traffic control unit" or "in Class E, conflicting traffic may not be known to ATC and so it is necessary for all flights to make use of the see and avoid principle. In order for this to operate effectively, controllers shall NOT authorise a relaxation of the airspace speed limit"
This makes you all similar speeds doesn't it??
Before you make off the cuff comments, make sure you know what you're talking about.
Just read your latest rant.......
20 miles from the field, that's below FL 100 in Class D orE airspace isn't it??
I always thought that 250kts below FL100 was standard unless, quoting our manual:
"in Class D airspace when authorised by an air traffic control unit" or "in Class E, conflicting traffic may not be known to ATC and so it is necessary for all flights to make use of the see and avoid principle. In order for this to operate effectively, controllers shall NOT authorise a relaxation of the airspace speed limit"
This makes you all similar speeds doesn't it??
Before you make off the cuff comments, make sure you know what you're talking about.
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Moist/Brain Fade,
The reason why you have received such a hostile response from Edi controllers, and others, is because you have failed to grasp the facts and blame Edi ATC for what is in fact a far wider issue. The reasons for your frustrations are understandable up to a point, but do not necessarily lie at the door of Edi ATC. Try reading (again) the comments about airfield layout/infrastructure, less than expeditious SID routeings, ScATCC limitations etc, etc. They have been explained a number of times over on this and other previous posts. The issue is more far ranging and you should have realised that by now. Yet you still come back to it being an Edi ATC issue, choose to air your ill-informed complaints on the www and wonder why you're being chewed-out!
There are ways to go about things and ways not to. To tell us to 'make an effort' is a poor joke. We at Edi, like all the ATC staff at Gla, ScATCC and elsewhere, work bloody hard on a daily basis to give you guys what you want - given the limitations placed on us. To infer we are not making an effort is an insult. If I have an issue with a pilot, I do not choose to air it on PPRUNE and give them/their company a very public slagging - possibly because it might turn out to be me that is wrong, not them! Yes, there are areas for improvement and yes, some of those areas are being looked at - but not all. Just remember, there are ways to go about gettings these improvements and ways not to. I strongly suggest you both find a more professional/constructive way of furthering your complaints/issues and then you might get a different response.
The reason why you have received such a hostile response from Edi controllers, and others, is because you have failed to grasp the facts and blame Edi ATC for what is in fact a far wider issue. The reasons for your frustrations are understandable up to a point, but do not necessarily lie at the door of Edi ATC. Try reading (again) the comments about airfield layout/infrastructure, less than expeditious SID routeings, ScATCC limitations etc, etc. They have been explained a number of times over on this and other previous posts. The issue is more far ranging and you should have realised that by now. Yet you still come back to it being an Edi ATC issue, choose to air your ill-informed complaints on the www and wonder why you're being chewed-out!
There are ways to go about things and ways not to. To tell us to 'make an effort' is a poor joke. We at Edi, like all the ATC staff at Gla, ScATCC and elsewhere, work bloody hard on a daily basis to give you guys what you want - given the limitations placed on us. To infer we are not making an effort is an insult. If I have an issue with a pilot, I do not choose to air it on PPRUNE and give them/their company a very public slagging - possibly because it might turn out to be me that is wrong, not them! Yes, there are areas for improvement and yes, some of those areas are being looked at - but not all. Just remember, there are ways to go about gettings these improvements and ways not to. I strongly suggest you both find a more professional/constructive way of furthering your complaints/issues and then you might get a different response.
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callyoushortly
I DO know what I am talking about. I have more than once been asked to keep my speed up at EDI, like it or not and have delivered 330kts to within 20 miles of touchdown. Easily done, controller, pilot satisfied.
Wee Jock McPlop
Just remember, there are a load of airfields around Europe. All have their problems. EDI is the slowest in handling aircraft, either departing or arriving. FACT.
When you begin to grasp that - changes can start occuring to the better.
Good luck EDI.
I DO know what I am talking about. I have more than once been asked to keep my speed up at EDI, like it or not and have delivered 330kts to within 20 miles of touchdown. Easily done, controller, pilot satisfied.
Wee Jock McPlop
Just remember, there are a load of airfields around Europe. All have their problems. EDI is the slowest in handling aircraft, either departing or arriving. FACT.
When you begin to grasp that - changes can start occuring to the better.
Good luck EDI.
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Moist,
If the controller's asking you to keep up your speed then that's fine, he has removed the speed restriction for PLANNING purposes, I thought we didn't do that!!! Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you have to.
EDI is the slowest handling airport FACT, you say..... back this up please, I'd like to see where your info comes from.
As for things changing, until pilots like you are more constructive in your arguments quoting reality (Fact) not opinions then no-one can move on in a safe and expeditious, not to mention friendly environment. Maybe try putting things forward in writing to the unit or through your rep at the local safety meetings (or whatever they're called) until then expect more surliness.......
If the controller's asking you to keep up your speed then that's fine, he has removed the speed restriction for PLANNING purposes, I thought we didn't do that!!! Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you have to.
EDI is the slowest handling airport FACT, you say..... back this up please, I'd like to see where your info comes from.
As for things changing, until pilots like you are more constructive in your arguments quoting reality (Fact) not opinions then no-one can move on in a safe and expeditious, not to mention friendly environment. Maybe try putting things forward in writing to the unit or through your rep at the local safety meetings (or whatever they're called) until then expect more surliness.......
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callyoushortly
Look, EDI does and has asked to keep your speed up if you're number one or there's a large gap ahead. That is a fact.
In saying so, I probably seem to contradict myself as when I said EDI is the slowest, how could I be doing 330 then.
I could perhaps amend this by saying, EDI is pretty normal compared to others in arrival sequencing.
It is the departures that are much more frustrating, because the constant cul de sac problems, push back, then waiting for a long time - longer than usual, compared to other airports (Not LHR of course) to line up and take off.
I know it is not YOUR fault that the cul de sac is blocked, or that I have to wait for an inbound before I could push. That happens anywhere really. But once you're on the move things seem to slow down a lot more than elsewhere. The allocation of C or B for departure sometimes would make a difference, even if there's a TP at the end just about to line up. Here we could get out of your hair faster, the airspace wouldn't be so empty for so much longer etc... By the way I have spent my time on TPs.
Perhaps a bit more flexibility is in order. How many of you have been on a flight recently. Fair enough to invite us to the tower, hows about you guys joining us for 4 sectors soon??
cheers - moist
Look, EDI does and has asked to keep your speed up if you're number one or there's a large gap ahead. That is a fact.
In saying so, I probably seem to contradict myself as when I said EDI is the slowest, how could I be doing 330 then.
I could perhaps amend this by saying, EDI is pretty normal compared to others in arrival sequencing.
It is the departures that are much more frustrating, because the constant cul de sac problems, push back, then waiting for a long time - longer than usual, compared to other airports (Not LHR of course) to line up and take off.
I know it is not YOUR fault that the cul de sac is blocked, or that I have to wait for an inbound before I could push. That happens anywhere really. But once you're on the move things seem to slow down a lot more than elsewhere. The allocation of C or B for departure sometimes would make a difference, even if there's a TP at the end just about to line up. Here we could get out of your hair faster, the airspace wouldn't be so empty for so much longer etc... By the way I have spent my time on TPs.
Perhaps a bit more flexibility is in order. How many of you have been on a flight recently. Fair enough to invite us to the tower, hows about you guys joining us for 4 sectors soon??
cheers - moist
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Moist,
Probably the reason things seem to slow at EDI after taxi, more than anywhere else is again due infrastructure, final approach sequencing and general mix of traffic, I still maintain my point that a turboprop has to go somewhere in the sequence, and just because you arrive at C1 able to go, as he's lining up at D1 doesn't mean you should necessarily get to. Remember it's generally one departure per approach gap, and the 20 minute queue that only we seem to form has only just cleared in front of him, now it's his turn.
Also, having asked a few pilots over the past couple of cycles are they able to go from the intersection to expedite traffic, I've been faced with the response, "we haven't done the figures for it".
The other thing you're probably not aware of is a silly requirement that if someone is sitting at B1 or C1, ATC are not allowed to taxi an aircraft behind, thus slowing the operation, easier if everyone goes from the same point thus no unnecessary waiting on the taxiway.
Final approach spacing as we've thrashed to death, is the way it is, 6 miles and not too many improvements upon that.
When did I last do a fam flight?? Probably about 18 months back, what about my colleagues? I couldn't say for sure, but I'd imagine similar responses from some longer for others. We were under the impression that 9/11 had made them almost impossible unless you "knew someone", if this isn't the case do tell, I for one would be up for a few jumpseat rides......
Probably the reason things seem to slow at EDI after taxi, more than anywhere else is again due infrastructure, final approach sequencing and general mix of traffic, I still maintain my point that a turboprop has to go somewhere in the sequence, and just because you arrive at C1 able to go, as he's lining up at D1 doesn't mean you should necessarily get to. Remember it's generally one departure per approach gap, and the 20 minute queue that only we seem to form has only just cleared in front of him, now it's his turn.
Also, having asked a few pilots over the past couple of cycles are they able to go from the intersection to expedite traffic, I've been faced with the response, "we haven't done the figures for it".
The other thing you're probably not aware of is a silly requirement that if someone is sitting at B1 or C1, ATC are not allowed to taxi an aircraft behind, thus slowing the operation, easier if everyone goes from the same point thus no unnecessary waiting on the taxiway.
Final approach spacing as we've thrashed to death, is the way it is, 6 miles and not too many improvements upon that.
When did I last do a fam flight?? Probably about 18 months back, what about my colleagues? I couldn't say for sure, but I'd imagine similar responses from some longer for others. We were under the impression that 9/11 had made them almost impossible unless you "knew someone", if this isn't the case do tell, I for one would be up for a few jumpseat rides......
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Moist,
We are talking about your mis-informed/ill-judged rant at Edi ATC - FACT.
Lets have your FACTS about our ability to move traffic.
You plainly have not read, or maybe digested, what has been submitted before by other Prooners regarding the overall issues -FACT.
Regarding departures, there are limitations as to what can be done within the existing SID structure/current ScATCC sector capacity - FACT
Those issues are not going to go away quickly, but we are all doing our best to make it work - FACT.
As an aside, if I were to slag off your piloting skills on PPRUNE you would be a little agrieved would'nt you? Fact is, you and BF can do this in glory of anonymity. And you wonder why......!
Best wishes,
WJMcP
We are talking about your mis-informed/ill-judged rant at Edi ATC - FACT.
Lets have your FACTS about our ability to move traffic.
You plainly have not read, or maybe digested, what has been submitted before by other Prooners regarding the overall issues -FACT.
Regarding departures, there are limitations as to what can be done within the existing SID structure/current ScATCC sector capacity - FACT
Those issues are not going to go away quickly, but we are all doing our best to make it work - FACT.
As an aside, if I were to slag off your piloting skills on PPRUNE you would be a little agrieved would'nt you? Fact is, you and BF can do this in glory of anonymity. And you wonder why......!
Best wishes,
WJMcP
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Wee Jock
I can take criticism and I'm not afraid of it, either here or on line/ in the Sim. When I get criticised I don't fall out with the guy giving me a hard time! I listen and learn. I turn all self doubting and self critical, then I try to fix the problem.
Denial is not an option. I'm sure you get my drift.
Now tell me why at GLA they use the phrase (in suitable met conditions) "Advise at any time if you wish to continue visually" in order to prompt pilots to go visual to speed up the flow, and you never do it at EDI?
Don't mumble on about not being able to offer a visual clearance as this is NOT a clearance, just a prompt which plainly may be declined or accepted.
I don't know how many miles/minutes I've spent over the Firth in CAVOK weather when this simple phrase could have shortened/ eliminated the queue. It can be very rough out there for the folks down the back too especially as the queue is biggest on windy (SW) days and it gets very rough over the water. ATC dont take any notice of the wind tho (as they told me last time I phoned!). 6 miles come what may. Still air or 75Kts!
Anyway please just answer my Q. about that phrase. (at least)
Thanks. BF
I can take criticism and I'm not afraid of it, either here or on line/ in the Sim. When I get criticised I don't fall out with the guy giving me a hard time! I listen and learn. I turn all self doubting and self critical, then I try to fix the problem.
Denial is not an option. I'm sure you get my drift.
Now tell me why at GLA they use the phrase (in suitable met conditions) "Advise at any time if you wish to continue visually" in order to prompt pilots to go visual to speed up the flow, and you never do it at EDI?
Don't mumble on about not being able to offer a visual clearance as this is NOT a clearance, just a prompt which plainly may be declined or accepted.
I don't know how many miles/minutes I've spent over the Firth in CAVOK weather when this simple phrase could have shortened/ eliminated the queue. It can be very rough out there for the folks down the back too especially as the queue is biggest on windy (SW) days and it gets very rough over the water. ATC dont take any notice of the wind tho (as they told me last time I phoned!). 6 miles come what may. Still air or 75Kts!
Anyway please just answer my Q. about that phrase. (at least)
Thanks. BF
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My mother always said, if you don't ask, you don't get!
BF
If you're so desperate for visual approaches, and are happy to take them, what's wrong with asking?? If you don't ask, you don't get, how am I supposed to know you're visual when I'm sitting in a darkened room with no windows??
Maybe try it out once, if it's a no, I'm sure you'll get a good reason, if it's a yes, we're all happy and it negates any problems with legalities of offering visuals.
If you're so desperate for visual approaches, and are happy to take them, what's wrong with asking?? If you don't ask, you don't get, how am I supposed to know you're visual when I'm sitting in a darkened room with no windows??
Maybe try it out once, if it's a no, I'm sure you'll get a good reason, if it's a yes, we're all happy and it negates any problems with legalities of offering visuals.
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Brain Fade,
Nice to hear from you old chap! Thought it would not be too long before you chipped-in!
With respect, I think that if you read my previous posts, I am not in denial, indeed I accept that there are indeed areas that can be improved. I have been in this profession in one guise or another for some time now and one thing is for sure, I am big enough and hairy enough to take constructive comments/points and learn from them. What is ever so slightly annoying, is despite being told the varied and valid reasons behind many of the issues that you and Moist have raised, you are still hell bent on pounding away solely at Edi ATC - when a number of the issues are not necessarily attributable to us. The way you have both done so invites the replies you have received - what goes around etc etc.
Forgive me, but if you are visual and want to continue visually, why do you need to wait for me to give you a hint? You're a big lad (so to speak), press the transmit button and tell me. Why do you feel the need to pandered to by ATC? If it fits with my plan (yes, I do normally have one), i'll happily let you do it. If it does'nt, then sorry no can do and no, I will not go into a long winded explanation of why we cannot sometimes give you the visual approach - that has been covered at length with you before.
As for your wind issue, the very fact that you say the wind in the Edi area can be problematic to you does in fact make my answer for me. Sometimes it can be a pig and sometimes those gaps can increase/reduce - soz. Or is that because a certain pilot has not kept to their allocated speed or that one written down in the AIP - something that I believe that you made mention of in a previous contribution?
Anyway, my old chap, the fact remains that there are better ways of getting you message across - this is not one of them. Perhaps the airline, BAA, NATS forum mentioned earlier. Or through your airline FS rep, or your line Management/Senior Captain. Just a thought..... Or have those not worked?
All the best to you,
WJMcP
Nice to hear from you old chap! Thought it would not be too long before you chipped-in!
With respect, I think that if you read my previous posts, I am not in denial, indeed I accept that there are indeed areas that can be improved. I have been in this profession in one guise or another for some time now and one thing is for sure, I am big enough and hairy enough to take constructive comments/points and learn from them. What is ever so slightly annoying, is despite being told the varied and valid reasons behind many of the issues that you and Moist have raised, you are still hell bent on pounding away solely at Edi ATC - when a number of the issues are not necessarily attributable to us. The way you have both done so invites the replies you have received - what goes around etc etc.
Forgive me, but if you are visual and want to continue visually, why do you need to wait for me to give you a hint? You're a big lad (so to speak), press the transmit button and tell me. Why do you feel the need to pandered to by ATC? If it fits with my plan (yes, I do normally have one), i'll happily let you do it. If it does'nt, then sorry no can do and no, I will not go into a long winded explanation of why we cannot sometimes give you the visual approach - that has been covered at length with you before.
As for your wind issue, the very fact that you say the wind in the Edi area can be problematic to you does in fact make my answer for me. Sometimes it can be a pig and sometimes those gaps can increase/reduce - soz. Or is that because a certain pilot has not kept to their allocated speed or that one written down in the AIP - something that I believe that you made mention of in a previous contribution?
Anyway, my old chap, the fact remains that there are better ways of getting you message across - this is not one of them. Perhaps the airline, BAA, NATS forum mentioned earlier. Or through your airline FS rep, or your line Management/Senior Captain. Just a thought..... Or have those not worked?
All the best to you,
WJMcP
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Call you....
I DO ask. But not if the Queue has already built up and we're at the back of it.
My point is, although apparantly it's not easy to grasp
, that if YOU took the initiative (as they do in GLA), and gently prompted the number 1 "to advise if at any time you'd like to continue visually" you'd not get the queue building up in the first place!
Look, read that again a couple of times before you post your reply. Fuxxackes Rocket Science it ain't!
Jock
must have posted together there. Answer my Question old fruit. Why at GLA but not at EDI?
Spit it oot!
I DO ask. But not if the Queue has already built up and we're at the back of it.
My point is, although apparantly it's not easy to grasp
, that if YOU took the initiative (as they do in GLA), and gently prompted the number 1 "to advise if at any time you'd like to continue visually" you'd not get the queue building up in the first place!Look, read that again a couple of times before you post your reply. Fuxxackes Rocket Science it ain't!
Jock
must have posted together there. Answer my Question old fruit. Why at GLA but not at EDI?
Spit it oot!
Callyoushortly,
The problem that I think BF is getting at is the reluctance of a lot of pilots to go visual. Certainly not ATCs fault, but I could imagine a prompt by ATC might wake these people up. I do find it mildly irritating being held for 10 mins then getting extended vectors because the no1 aircraft would not go visual on a 30k+ CAVOK day. I am sure the setup of EDI causes a lot of the problem, but I think us pilots could do our bit!
The problem that I think BF is getting at is the reluctance of a lot of pilots to go visual. Certainly not ATCs fault, but I could imagine a prompt by ATC might wake these people up. I do find it mildly irritating being held for 10 mins then getting extended vectors because the no1 aircraft would not go visual on a 30k+ CAVOK day. I am sure the setup of EDI causes a lot of the problem, but I think us pilots could do our bit!
On both counts!
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BF
And if you know you're number one and you are happy to continue visually then take the initiative yourself and TELL me you're visual, communication makes for a happy ship.
It seems that right way up is a pilot talking a lot of sense, not much of it around here before this! If number one is not prepared to go visual it's not my fault and I work round it, and also I'll end up with a steady 6 miles on final. Visuals are the bane of your life when requested in a sequence, because I haven't found too many pilots who are able to keep a gap when they're told one is needed.
You do your job and I'll do mine.
And if you know you're number one and you are happy to continue visually then take the initiative yourself and TELL me you're visual, communication makes for a happy ship.
It seems that right way up is a pilot talking a lot of sense, not much of it around here before this! If number one is not prepared to go visual it's not my fault and I work round it, and also I'll end up with a steady 6 miles on final. Visuals are the bane of your life when requested in a sequence, because I haven't found too many pilots who are able to keep a gap when they're told one is needed.
You do your job and I'll do mine.