Internet ATC Data Feeds (Was Safe Air Travel...?)
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Back in the mists of time (2000) I went to a quaint little air display at Farnborough. Myself and a few colleagues (wearing 'Don't privatise ATC' T-shirts) found the NATS stand in the chalets. I seem to remember seeing something akin to the flight tracker software that one can use to observe traffic in the USA. I think I even found a software presentation about it somewhere. Whatever, NATS were in the process of producing one, but obviously stopped.
Why?....
Cost?
PPP?
9/11?
Who knows.
Why?....
Cost?
PPP?
9/11?
Who knows.
Last edited by Gonzo; 10th May 2005 at 13:12.
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Failure I can undertsand.....but as long as they tried.
BD
Most of those recruiting for RAF in the Midlands (Leicester / Peterborough) are referred to Wittering (whilst waiting for their Cranwell OASC date) and so they have more than a few applications as I’m sure you can imagine, but thanks for the helpful tip…It might interest you to note that the station motto is: “strength is freedom.” something the Americans relish, but something we Brits are all to aware of losing the grip on. (as exemplified by the tone of your reply).
Gonzo
Cheers mate, at last someone with a valid reason… Pity, the Americans are leading the way (again) in this field…..
001
Most of those recruiting for RAF in the Midlands (Leicester / Peterborough) are referred to Wittering (whilst waiting for their Cranwell OASC date) and so they have more than a few applications as I’m sure you can imagine, but thanks for the helpful tip…It might interest you to note that the station motto is: “strength is freedom.” something the Americans relish, but something we Brits are all to aware of losing the grip on. (as exemplified by the tone of your reply).
Gonzo
Cheers mate, at last someone with a valid reason… Pity, the Americans are leading the way (again) in this field…..
001
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BA001
Not quite sure I grasp the meaning of "Strength is freedom" in the context of your reply, please feel free to elucidate 
I'm an ex-Mil ATCO so I do have an idea of how many visit requests Mil Towers get.
I (IMHO) thought the most valid reason (security etc to one side) was that of money. If you and your band of merry spotters would care to pay for NATS (or indeed any other ATSU) to give you a feed on the internet, to campaign and take through all the various legal procedures a bill to allow these feeds on the internet and allow ATSP's to give you what you want then I'm certain its possible.
However there is no reason for any ATSP in the UK to undertake the work outlined above free, gratis and for nothing. Its not gonna happen unless the people who want it are willing to shoulder a lot of the work and put a large amount of wonga upfront to pay for the bits they cannot do
I say again 'Show me the money!'
BD
I'm an ex-Mil ATCO so I do have an idea of how many visit requests Mil Towers get.
I (IMHO) thought the most valid reason (security etc to one side) was that of money. If you and your band of merry spotters would care to pay for NATS (or indeed any other ATSU) to give you a feed on the internet, to campaign and take through all the various legal procedures a bill to allow these feeds on the internet and allow ATSP's to give you what you want then I'm certain its possible.
However there is no reason for any ATSP in the UK to undertake the work outlined above free, gratis and for nothing. Its not gonna happen unless the people who want it are willing to shoulder a lot of the work and put a large amount of wonga upfront to pay for the bits they cannot do
I say again 'Show me the money!'
BD
More than just an ATCO
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FWIW
BAW001 says
As well as no radar data, no access to landline co-ordination, and the increased use of air/ground data links, probably in fact less than 50%.
I don't ever remember reading in the job description that it was part of my job to inform the piblic of what I was doing, in fact, the opposite. Even as a supervisor, I was instructed to refer any requests for info to the Press Officer
From memory the R/T on the web was provided, not by ATSP but by private individuals - also frequently not live.
What would be in it for the provider making, say, radar info available? A considerable financial investment, the fact that the unscrupulous would probably make use of it to bolster nefarious claims, weigh heavily against it. Furthermore "spotters" are not primarilly interested in ATC but only in filling their little books.
Sorry, no link whatsoever between this topic and "Safe Air Travel"
Lon More, here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger.
BAW001 says
currently stands at about 80%
I don't ever remember reading in the job description that it was part of my job to inform the piblic of what I was doing, in fact, the opposite. Even as a supervisor, I was instructed to refer any requests for info to the Press Officer
From memory the R/T on the web was provided, not by ATSP but by private individuals - also frequently not live.
What would be in it for the provider making, say, radar info available? A considerable financial investment, the fact that the unscrupulous would probably make use of it to bolster nefarious claims, weigh heavily against it. Furthermore "spotters" are not primarilly interested in ATC but only in filling their little books.
Sorry, no link whatsoever between this topic and "Safe Air Travel"
Lon More, here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger.
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Safe Air Travel
Yes Lon More a bit of a disconnect between the title and the content. A more appropriate title might be 'Spotters demand more for free'.
BD
Serving in the RAF when the PMC was just a briefcase.
BD
Serving in the RAF when the PMC was just a briefcase.
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Gonzo,
Flight Path UK you're thinking of.
There was even a demo version of it up and running.
The IP address that used to access it still points at a NATS server but it's behind user name and password access.
Pulled for legal concerns was the word I heard.
WF.
Flight Path UK you're thinking of.
There was even a demo version of it up and running.
The IP address that used to access it still points at a NATS server but it's behind user name and password access.
Pulled for legal concerns was the word I heard.
WF.
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So BD Wittering have an ongoing 100% acceptance rate of spotters through the gates do they? (I would regard this as a far greater breach of 1) security and 2) their purpose. But far be it for me to discuss how you spend the remaining majority of your working day. I have enjoyed numerous visits to working RAF stations as a Cadet Warrant officer but you seem to miss the point I’m trying to convey….)
How many a/c enthusiasts watch the ‘moving map’ in the seat head rest in front of them when they fly on their holidays? (JUST ME THEN………?)
The subject of the debate has ‘everything’ to do with safe air travel (Heads up: its kinda the crux of your vocation!) but I’m sorry for thinking for one moment that a few of those in the industry might just see the point of the debate through the haze created by cyclical issues of: funding / ‘job description’ / et al.
If I had a few million pounds to spend, you guys would be happy for me to pay your employer to put the feed online would you?……. (NO funny that, I didn’t think so either!)
But I’ll roll with you..
So now we have weeded out the issues of:
1) funding
2) it not being ‘an issue of safety’
……..what:
reasons substantiate not posting an online live ATC (moving MAP) feed
……..Anyone want to answer the original question perhaps with the legal evidence which “must” be the binding issue which I was hoping for clarification on.
My intention was never to rile anyone but find answers. Thanks to the righteous individuals for perpetuating the confusion on this matter as I’m sure that’s exactly what industry needs….(I’ll happily engage you with a similar attitude……)
No tell you what - instead of asking fellow Brits ‘why they can’t do it’, I’ll just ask the yanks ‘why they can’ and see what exactly are the binding laws; I just thought someone on here might know.
All I’ve found out so far is that the majority of native ATCOs would feel ‘abused’ by the prospect, which IS NOT the question. Answer the question!
001
(thats "001" BD)
How many a/c enthusiasts watch the ‘moving map’ in the seat head rest in front of them when they fly on their holidays? (JUST ME THEN………?)
The subject of the debate has ‘everything’ to do with safe air travel (Heads up: its kinda the crux of your vocation!) but I’m sorry for thinking for one moment that a few of those in the industry might just see the point of the debate through the haze created by cyclical issues of: funding / ‘job description’ / et al.
If I had a few million pounds to spend, you guys would be happy for me to pay your employer to put the feed online would you?……. (NO funny that, I didn’t think so either!)
But I’ll roll with you..
So now we have weeded out the issues of:
1) funding
2) it not being ‘an issue of safety’
……..what:
reasons substantiate not posting an online live ATC (moving MAP) feed
……..Anyone want to answer the original question perhaps with the legal evidence which “must” be the binding issue which I was hoping for clarification on.
My intention was never to rile anyone but find answers. Thanks to the righteous individuals for perpetuating the confusion on this matter as I’m sure that’s exactly what industry needs….(I’ll happily engage you with a similar attitude……)
No tell you what - instead of asking fellow Brits ‘why they can’t do it’, I’ll just ask the yanks ‘why they can’ and see what exactly are the binding laws; I just thought someone on here might know.
All I’ve found out so far is that the majority of native ATCOs would feel ‘abused’ by the prospect, which IS NOT the question. Answer the question!
001
(thats "001" BD)
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OK, back to your original question:
Please enlighten us as to what legislation you are refering? We have merely speculated as to the rationale; maybe you can put more meat on the bone.
PS. I, like many, see no link between your question and the "safe(ty) of air travel". If you mean "security" then I think you have had a reasonable response. Just becuase the gold old USA does something, doesn't mean that we have to automatically jump into bed with them.
PPS. Why am I allowing myself to waste any of my time on such drivvle?
Excuse the nature of this contentious thread but I would like some watertight reasons for why the current legislation even stands…..
PS. I, like many, see no link between your question and the "safe(ty) of air travel". If you mean "security" then I think you have had a reasonable response. Just becuase the gold old USA does something, doesn't mean that we have to automatically jump into bed with them.
PPS. Why am I allowing myself to waste any of my time on such drivvle?
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So now we have weeded out the issues of:
1) funding
2) it not being ‘an issue of safety’
1) funding
2) it not being ‘an issue of safety’
The subject of the debate has ‘everything’ to do with safe air travel (Heads up: its kinda the crux of your vocation!)
More than just an ATCO
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The subject of the debate has ‘everything’ to do with safe air travel (Heads up: its kinda the crux of your vocation!)
IF you make it into the RAF I can just see your first CR:
Having reached rock bottom, he has started to dig.
His men will follow him anywhere, if only out of curiosity.
I would not breed from this officer.
Apologies, for all I know you might be a very nice person, but mouthing off in here will just get you slagged off. You are not related to a guy called "Impi" are you?
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BA001
In response to your last post. Do you recall what I said about attracting more flies with honey than vinegar?
Did I state that Wittering have a blanket acceptance of Spotters through the gates? I think I said (and correct me if I'm wrong) that I'm well aware of the requests made of Mil ATC Towers. You were a CWO? Your Mum must be very proud of you.
Indeed far be it from you to discuss how I spend the remaining majority of my working day. Obviously the time I've spent giving you an answer has been wasted time, which is unfortunate as most 'outsiders' visiting PPrune tend to treat those who bother to give a reply with some modicum of courtesy.
Moving map display on the headrest, quite what has that to do with ATC? Do you actually know what function ATC perform?
What does this debate have to do with 'flight safety'? What do spotters contribute to flight safety in a positive way as opposed to a negative one? I well recall having to despatch fire crews to crash gates to move on itinerant spotters from blocking them when notices are very clearly displayed. Although one ex-SATCO of mine, after politely remonstrating with some spotters who refused to move, sent the fire crews on a practice crash to a location on the far side of the obstructed crash gate. They very quickly moved out of the way although sustaining some damage to their vehicle.
If you had only about a million to spend and would put in the effort to get a change in the law (funding council etc.) and fund the engineering changes required then I'm absolutely certain NATS would do the necessary. I can be certain because I'd write the IP etc. for you and earn many smartie points for bringing in external business.
You seem to have had some scope creep though, moving maps versus ATC displays. If NATS took on your business we would need to see your requirements, ones which don't change because scope creep leads to increased costs as you (the customer) appear not to know precisely what it is you want. Is it a full radar feed with sound, is it a 'moving map' display, whatever that is in ATC terms? Can you tell us precisely what it is you want to see and hear?
Several posters have told you about the legalities involved in broadcasting certain frequencies, which you seem to chose to ignore. If you and your band of Spotters are prepared to mount (and fund) a legal challenge then I'm sure these could be resolved. But don't expect industry to do your legwork for you, there is no benefit to us.
As to why our transatlantic cousins allow it, who knows? We in the UK don't. Full stop (or should that be period )
Answer the question you plaintively cry. Well can you state the question precisely, then we might be in with a chance of answering it.
Lon More your CR comment is shocking! I may think that this man (youth?) is so dense that he bends light but I couldn't possibly write it
BD
Did I state that Wittering have a blanket acceptance of Spotters through the gates? I think I said (and correct me if I'm wrong) that I'm well aware of the requests made of Mil ATC Towers. You were a CWO? Your Mum must be very proud of you.
Indeed far be it from you to discuss how I spend the remaining majority of my working day. Obviously the time I've spent giving you an answer has been wasted time, which is unfortunate as most 'outsiders' visiting PPrune tend to treat those who bother to give a reply with some modicum of courtesy.
Moving map display on the headrest, quite what has that to do with ATC? Do you actually know what function ATC perform?
What does this debate have to do with 'flight safety'? What do spotters contribute to flight safety in a positive way as opposed to a negative one? I well recall having to despatch fire crews to crash gates to move on itinerant spotters from blocking them when notices are very clearly displayed. Although one ex-SATCO of mine, after politely remonstrating with some spotters who refused to move, sent the fire crews on a practice crash to a location on the far side of the obstructed crash gate. They very quickly moved out of the way although sustaining some damage to their vehicle.
If you had only about a million to spend and would put in the effort to get a change in the law (funding council etc.) and fund the engineering changes required then I'm absolutely certain NATS would do the necessary. I can be certain because I'd write the IP etc. for you and earn many smartie points for bringing in external business.
You seem to have had some scope creep though, moving maps versus ATC displays. If NATS took on your business we would need to see your requirements, ones which don't change because scope creep leads to increased costs as you (the customer) appear not to know precisely what it is you want. Is it a full radar feed with sound, is it a 'moving map' display, whatever that is in ATC terms? Can you tell us precisely what it is you want to see and hear?
Several posters have told you about the legalities involved in broadcasting certain frequencies, which you seem to chose to ignore. If you and your band of Spotters are prepared to mount (and fund) a legal challenge then I'm sure these could be resolved. But don't expect industry to do your legwork for you, there is no benefit to us.
As to why our transatlantic cousins allow it, who knows? We in the UK don't. Full stop (or should that be period
)Answer the question you plaintively cry. Well can you state the question precisely, then we might be in with a chance of answering it.
Lon More your CR comment is shocking! I may think that this man (youth?) is so dense that he bends light but I couldn't possibly write it
BD
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I have just read this thread and can't believe this cretin doesn't understand the phrase 'it's against the law'. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it will go away. Why should it be repealed? It doesn't really stop most people from listening in quietly and stops the more flagrant abuses that could happen.
SO JUST DROP IT.....
Goes away now to kick the dog
SO JUST DROP IT.....
Goes away now to kick the dog
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Pitty that...oh well.
http://www.passur.com/sites.htm
If you follow this link and then choose kjfk (as the airport you want to monitor - you’ll need to type it in to your address bar for it to work) then you will see that the PASSUR feed I referred to [in the very first post! ], in conjunction with ATC transmissions on a scanner/current internet source, “would (IF the PASSUR feed WERE LIVE) give a very comprehensive picture of a/c movements”
***I choose 80% (Lon More as a % of what data is considered worthy of note…as the only thing missing in PASSUR feeds are: destination and carrier. But I respect your assessment that compared to yourselves (ATCOs) a spotter can only get a picture of around 50% ‘the real picture’. ( I would suggest even lower!) Which without the implementation of widespread real time telemetry is rather like a pilot saying that an ATCO only knows 50% of what his aircraft is doing. The point in fact regarding ratios is whilst you wouldn’t care what his N1 ratings or fuel status were at V1…those who tune into PASSUR don’t care if someone working the AMA has to ‘prompt’ the tower (insert seemingly ‘behind-the scenes’ scenario here)…..***
But getting back to the discussion, if the PASSUR feed was in real time then the compromise in safety(= security; just for you SATCO) of that flight would increase only nominally. I don’t want more information about the a/c (enough is widely broadcast to make a very informed assessments already) I am just suggesting why delaying the information that is already provided is lagged by a ‘specified’ period which therefore is a pointless security measure (is it not?)
The moving map in the back of your headrest provides exactly the same information which I’m suggesting might be published online to avid plane spotters so the crux of the original question was why this same info cannot be broadcast on the net in the same format.
But don’t bother, Like the majority of you – I don’t care anymore; let the yanks take the lead again while we busy ourselves with infighting……..
>Rodan: I was humouring Lon More’s post (10/5/05 13.52)
>BD: I began the discussion with your mother’s philosophy in mind. (not a trace of discontent in my voice I believe???) Elucidating on your analogy, I expected flies but, you can imagine my upset when I realised (dripping in honey) that I interrupted a field of angry hornets with more bravado than brains…
>Mr More: I obviously remind you of yourself and although I’m charmed and thank you for the entertainment….(you’re obviously as blissfully ignorant as to the answers as I am on this which is nothing to be ashamed of; it appears nobody knows. ATCOs aren’t trained lawyers after all and there is absolutely no correlation between the legislature and whether an ATCO (or any other profession) feels infringed upon by progress and the changing world around us.
TS> wtf are you on about?
I just wanted to find out why we’re trailing in the wake of the yanks on this issue but forgive me; I have been short-sighted.
After analysis of more than a few responses from my fellow Brits, irrespective of any legally preventative legislation (which no-one can actually name/state with regard to definitive references and government bills), at last it’s dawned on me what really hinders such developments in the aeronautical industry of this country.
I’ll write to the CAA using the same ‘original’ question safe in the knowledge that a reply cosseting more professional explanations and reasons will shed more light on the matter.
001 (requesting higher to leave the turbulence below)
SUBJECT DROPPED
...001 rolls off into the setting sun musing at the viability of a PP(FACT)Ne, maybe in America?
If you follow this link and then choose kjfk (as the airport you want to monitor - you’ll need to type it in to your address bar for it to work) then you will see that the PASSUR feed I referred to [in the very first post! ], in conjunction with ATC transmissions on a scanner/current internet source, “would (IF the PASSUR feed WERE LIVE) give a very comprehensive picture of a/c movements”
***I choose 80% (Lon More as a % of what data is considered worthy of note…as the only thing missing in PASSUR feeds are: destination and carrier. But I respect your assessment that compared to yourselves (ATCOs) a spotter can only get a picture of around 50% ‘the real picture’. ( I would suggest even lower!) Which without the implementation of widespread real time telemetry is rather like a pilot saying that an ATCO only knows 50% of what his aircraft is doing. The point in fact regarding ratios is whilst you wouldn’t care what his N1 ratings or fuel status were at V1…those who tune into PASSUR don’t care if someone working the AMA has to ‘prompt’ the tower (insert seemingly ‘behind-the scenes’ scenario here)…..***
But getting back to the discussion, if the PASSUR feed was in real time then the compromise in safety(= security; just for you SATCO) of that flight would increase only nominally. I don’t want more information about the a/c (enough is widely broadcast to make a very informed assessments already) I am just suggesting why delaying the information that is already provided is lagged by a ‘specified’ period which therefore is a pointless security measure (is it not?)
The moving map in the back of your headrest provides exactly the same information which I’m suggesting might be published online to avid plane spotters so the crux of the original question was why this same info cannot be broadcast on the net in the same format.
But don’t bother, Like the majority of you – I don’t care anymore; let the yanks take the lead again while we busy ourselves with infighting……..
>Rodan: I was humouring Lon More’s post (10/5/05 13.52)
>BD: I began the discussion with your mother’s philosophy in mind. (not a trace of discontent in my voice I believe???) Elucidating on your analogy, I expected flies but, you can imagine my upset when I realised (dripping in honey) that I interrupted a field of angry hornets with more bravado than brains…
>Mr More: I obviously remind you of yourself and although I’m charmed and thank you for the entertainment….(you’re obviously as blissfully ignorant as to the answers as I am on this which is nothing to be ashamed of; it appears nobody knows. ATCOs aren’t trained lawyers after all and there is absolutely no correlation between the legislature and whether an ATCO (or any other profession) feels infringed upon by progress and the changing world around us.
TS> wtf are you on about?
I just wanted to find out why we’re trailing in the wake of the yanks on this issue but forgive me; I have been short-sighted.
After analysis of more than a few responses from my fellow Brits, irrespective of any legally preventative legislation (which no-one can actually name/state with regard to definitive references and government bills), at last it’s dawned on me what really hinders such developments in the aeronautical industry of this country.
I’ll write to the CAA using the same ‘original’ question safe in the knowledge that a reply cosseting more professional explanations and reasons will shed more light on the matter.
001 (requesting higher to leave the turbulence below)
SUBJECT DROPPED
...001 rolls off into the setting sun musing at the viability of a PP(FACT)Ne, maybe in America?
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I just wanted to find out why we’re trailing in the wake of the yanks on this issue but forgive me; I have been short-sighted.
After analysis of more than a few responses from my fellow Brits, irrespective of any legally preventative legislation (which no-one can actually name/state with regard to definitive references and government bills), at last it’s dawned on me what really hinders such developments in the aeronautical industry of this country. I’ll write to the CAA using the same ‘original’ question safe in the knowledge that a reply cosseting more professional explanations and reasons will shed more light on the matter.
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Cheers PPRuNe Rader, I was hoping for this type of response in the first instance so I’ll take a peak at the wording of the licence which you refer to. Every piece of information has a price.
001
Quote:
LM> “More than just an ATCO”
Quod Erat Demonstrandom as we village idiots like to say….
001
Quote:
LM> “More than just an ATCO”
Quod Erat Demonstrandom as we village idiots like to say….
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Much of it is legalese gobbledy gook but the En Route licence is here:
NATS EN Route (NERL) Licence)
The obligations placed on NATS for the provision of ATS at airports (and hence services and data available) will be subject to a contract with the airport for whom the service is provided. Not sure those kinds of documents ever get to see the light of day in public.
NATS EN Route (NERL) Licence)
The obligations placed on NATS for the provision of ATS at airports (and hence services and data available) will be subject to a contract with the airport for whom the service is provided. Not sure those kinds of documents ever get to see the light of day in public.
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BAW001, I more than a little bemused by your ramblings. You commenced your thread with a crusade to obtain "watertight reasons"........and how quickly it changed.
While it obvious you seem more than a little passionate regarding the topic, just who the hell do you think you are coming out with verbal like
(my italics)
The "subject" of the debate and most of what you are carrying on about has NOTHING to do with air saftey, and for you to feel you have to point out "its kinda the crux"........ I'm amazed you haven't been told to f*ck right off (in that many words)
The debate is that you as a spotter feel hard done by that legislation exists in the UK that prevents live ATC feeds (of whatever format) being provided on the web, and that there exists legislation concerning the use of a scanner to listen in to ATC frequencies (which, at this point it should be noted that I have never seen it enforced
) And it sounds like you have a little sand in your ass regarding the fact it is available in the US. Why don't you move there then?
Aside from the example/link I provided, I'll throw a few more at you:
- Security related flights (more than just good old Police flights)
- Situations where (touch wood) an incident/accident has occurred. Tell me, if your/your family were involved some sort of incident as pax or pilot, would you really want somebody on the ground with a scanner hearing the whole thing interpret what they heard and run around saying to one and all "Hey, you're not going to believe this!".......believe me, it happens (as this site has displayed on more than one occasion). There are also implications of this in any pending investigation that may be required (once again, if the damn British media get hold of it)
- I am wondering if these feeds would continue if a situation were to occur. Would the plug be pulled while it was sorted out? I'm betting yes.
Yes, you little professional. You do that.
While it obvious you seem more than a little passionate regarding the topic, just who the hell do you think you are coming out with verbal like
The subject of the debate has ‘everything’ to do with safe air travel (Heads up: its kinda the crux of your vocation!)
The "subject" of the debate and most of what you are carrying on about has NOTHING to do with air saftey, and for you to feel you have to point out "its kinda the crux"........ I'm amazed you haven't been told to f*ck right off (in that many words)
The debate is that you as a spotter feel hard done by that legislation exists in the UK that prevents live ATC feeds (of whatever format) being provided on the web, and that there exists legislation concerning the use of a scanner to listen in to ATC frequencies (which, at this point it should be noted that I have never seen it enforced
) And it sounds like you have a little sand in your ass regarding the fact it is available in the US. Why don't you move there then?Aside from the example/link I provided, I'll throw a few more at you:
- Security related flights (more than just good old Police flights)
- Situations where (touch wood) an incident/accident has occurred. Tell me, if your/your family were involved some sort of incident as pax or pilot, would you really want somebody on the ground with a scanner hearing the whole thing interpret what they heard and run around saying to one and all "Hey, you're not going to believe this!".......believe me, it happens (as this site has displayed on more than one occasion). There are also implications of this in any pending investigation that may be required (once again, if the damn British media get hold of it)
- I am wondering if these feeds would continue if a situation were to occur. Would the plug be pulled while it was sorted out? I'm betting yes.
I’ll write to the CAA using the same ‘original’ question safe in the knowledge that a reply cosseting more professional explanations and reasons will shed more light on the matter.