Internet ATC Data Feeds (Was Safe Air Travel...?)
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J> So in the event of an event, why would the feeds be ‘pulled’ if they have no bearing on the safety/security of air travel?
Quote:
******
The debate is that you as a spotter feel hard done by that legislation exists in the UK that prevents live ATC feeds
*****
Not at all, I can sit outside any airport and listen merrily to atc feeds direct from the horses mouth.
But I do feel hard done by the attitudes of those I considered professionals, however the debate is on naming that legislation to analyse what small print actually says that atc / passur feeds cannot be published in real time.
*** If David Beckham misses an open goal, it won’t stop half the country laughing in his face and telling him he’s crap, but then he’s the man on the pitch at the time and only he knows the conditions at hand; something a true supporter would appreciate this as I do in your case Jerricho (or any other ATCO). If Mr Beckham fouls up and ‘genuinely’ questions his own abilities ‘off the back’ of accusations made from anyone of 100,000 rabble in the stands; then he shouldn’t be doing the job.***
And I do believe, not once have I questioned the fine work that ATCOs do in keeping UK air space the safest in the world. (which would not be compromised by the nominal developments I’m suggesting) Whether my suggestions might invoke more scaremongering is a different debate all together. (Mr Beckham copes very well with all the browbeating he gets..)
Perhaps I haven’t explained the passur link all that well (has anyone bothered to look? The contention is more to do with the real time broadcasting of those ‘moving maps’ which pax see in their headrest.
Imagine those nervous flyers who send their nervous families off on holiday. I’m just supposing it might prove comforting to them to be able to type in a flight number online and know that flight ‘abc’ was currently happily cruising at x over y on its why to z. Businesses would even by able to chart the progress of freighter a/c carrying important cargo. (etc) The reasons are many and varied, but tuning into an airline website to be faced with either 1) ‘Not landed’ 2) ‘landed’3) ‘call airline’, just seems a little old tech…
Perhaps carriers can use their internal datalink for a/c to report their real time positions direct to airline ops. Then it’s up to the carrier whether it publishes that on its website. (Is there anything unlawful against this in the UK?)
I don’t expect a civil reply, but anyone wishing to tell me ‘what an abuse of their professional rights’ they would feel – then save it, I kinda worked that out.
001
Quote:
******
The debate is that you as a spotter feel hard done by that legislation exists in the UK that prevents live ATC feeds
*****
Not at all, I can sit outside any airport and listen merrily to atc feeds direct from the horses mouth.
But I do feel hard done by the attitudes of those I considered professionals, however the debate is on naming that legislation to analyse what small print actually says that atc / passur feeds cannot be published in real time.
*** If David Beckham misses an open goal, it won’t stop half the country laughing in his face and telling him he’s crap, but then he’s the man on the pitch at the time and only he knows the conditions at hand; something a true supporter would appreciate this as I do in your case Jerricho (or any other ATCO). If Mr Beckham fouls up and ‘genuinely’ questions his own abilities ‘off the back’ of accusations made from anyone of 100,000 rabble in the stands; then he shouldn’t be doing the job.***
And I do believe, not once have I questioned the fine work that ATCOs do in keeping UK air space the safest in the world. (which would not be compromised by the nominal developments I’m suggesting) Whether my suggestions might invoke more scaremongering is a different debate all together. (Mr Beckham copes very well with all the browbeating he gets..)
Perhaps I haven’t explained the passur link all that well (has anyone bothered to look? The contention is more to do with the real time broadcasting of those ‘moving maps’ which pax see in their headrest.
Imagine those nervous flyers who send their nervous families off on holiday. I’m just supposing it might prove comforting to them to be able to type in a flight number online and know that flight ‘abc’ was currently happily cruising at x over y on its why to z. Businesses would even by able to chart the progress of freighter a/c carrying important cargo. (etc) The reasons are many and varied, but tuning into an airline website to be faced with either 1) ‘Not landed’ 2) ‘landed’3) ‘call airline’, just seems a little old tech…
Perhaps carriers can use their internal datalink for a/c to report their real time positions direct to airline ops. Then it’s up to the carrier whether it publishes that on its website. (Is there anything unlawful against this in the UK?)
I don’t expect a civil reply, but anyone wishing to tell me ‘what an abuse of their professional rights’ they would feel – then save it, I kinda worked that out.
001
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I'm sorry, but this dull air traffiker just doesn't get what Speedy One is on about. The argument appears to be getting more and more elliptical.
PS. I did browse Passeur.
PS. I did browse Passeur.
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why would the feeds be ‘pulled’ if they have no bearing on the safety/security of air travel?
If Mr Beckham fouls up and ‘genuinely’ questions his own abilities ‘off the back’ of accusations made from anyone of 100,000 rabble in the stands; then he shouldn’t be doing the job.***
but anyone wishing to tell me ‘what an abuse of their professional rights’ they would feel – then save it, I kinda worked that out.
WB SATCO - Basically Mr BAW001 is a spotter who wants live feed on the internet. He seems to take the occasional swipe about professionalism then hold his hands up and says "not me Guv". It sounds like he thinks ATC is like football, and that David Beckham would make a good controller. The rest is just crap.
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As to why the USA do and the UK doesn't, the passur website says it all:
http://www.passur.com/am_airport.htm
Sorry SB001 but it says nothing about keeping spotters happy.
More for community awareness of flight paths and such, which isn't a bad idea. Maybe for community relations it wouldn't be a bad idea for places like STN or LHR.
I can see what SB001 is saying: 'What's the harm in having this info available?' (the law aside). It doesn't really pose any greater risk in security. I mean, a lock will only stop an honest man. If some nasties are intent on doing harm, would not having this sort of thing really stop them? Then again, do we want to hand it to them on a plate?
Anyway, enough said.
Let the status quo remain
http://www.passur.com/am_airport.htm
Sorry SB001 but it says nothing about keeping spotters happy.
More for community awareness of flight paths and such, which isn't a bad idea. Maybe for community relations it wouldn't be a bad idea for places like STN or LHR.
I can see what SB001 is saying: 'What's the harm in having this info available?' (the law aside). It doesn't really pose any greater risk in security. I mean, a lock will only stop an honest man. If some nasties are intent on doing harm, would not having this sort of thing really stop them? Then again, do we want to hand it to them on a plate?
Anyway, enough said.
Let the status quo remain
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Thanks pig dog, at least you comprehend what I’ve been trying to convey for the past few days. Keeping spotters happy was not really the main agenda, (A reminder of which can be found in most of my replies)
J>You seem to be bending whatever I write, I was always under the illusion that being shy, retiring and selfish and not helping your peers out, were the perfect traits of a worthy atco…but thanks for clearing that up, I feel so much more informed…
……I expect Mr Beckham to listen to his peers (and council them in return) but not to the public or the media (which would quickly result in a brood of quivering wrecks and legally embroiled football teams) If my statement is b******t then what you’re saying is that you DO regard the opinions of the uneducated ‘wannabe/media’ with any credibility, so AGAIN you have misunderstood the analogy that ‘I’ made. Unless, some wannabe with a scanner gets you nervous when he reports that:
http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...hreadid=149591
(May I use the thread which ‘coincidently’, YOU provided on the 9/5/05 15.38….?)
(Which I wouldn’t have expected an atco to reply to for the very reasons u give!……..a la Eric Cantona style)
(btw…….you don’t actually think for a minute that I was suggesting that kicking a ball around was comparable to the work of an atco do you? ALL professions are subject to media/public opinion but it doesn’t make them all uniformly (un)professional or deserved of it!)
Quote:
***
Is that through your professional capacity to discuss the matter?
***
…no, just fed up of “journeymen” getting righteous and not answering the question (but thanks for proving the point – again.)
001
J>You seem to be bending whatever I write, I was always under the illusion that being shy, retiring and selfish and not helping your peers out, were the perfect traits of a worthy atco…but thanks for clearing that up, I feel so much more informed…
……I expect Mr Beckham to listen to his peers (and council them in return) but not to the public or the media (which would quickly result in a brood of quivering wrecks and legally embroiled football teams) If my statement is b******t then what you’re saying is that you DO regard the opinions of the uneducated ‘wannabe/media’ with any credibility, so AGAIN you have misunderstood the analogy that ‘I’ made. Unless, some wannabe with a scanner gets you nervous when he reports that:
http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthr...hreadid=149591
(May I use the thread which ‘coincidently’, YOU provided on the 9/5/05 15.38….?)
(Which I wouldn’t have expected an atco to reply to for the very reasons u give!……..a la Eric Cantona style)
(btw…….you don’t actually think for a minute that I was suggesting that kicking a ball around was comparable to the work of an atco do you? ALL professions are subject to media/public opinion but it doesn’t make them all uniformly (un)professional or deserved of it!)
Quote:
***
Is that through your professional capacity to discuss the matter?
***
…no, just fed up of “journeymen” getting righteous and not answering the question (but thanks for proving the point – again.)
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This is slightly off thread, but relevant, and may clarify some things, and at the same time make them even worse.
There are huge numbers of people out there with no aviation qualifications what so ever who take great delight in flying their virtual 747 from airfield A to airfield B using whatever flight simulator package appeals to them.
With the advent of the internet, and now broadband, they can even do this real time with other people, and there are now also add on packages available for the simulators that allow another person to act as an air traffic controller and control all these "virtual" aircraft. It used to be just pop up text messages on the screen, but broadband opens up the possibility of "real" audio, in real time.
I've also heard more than a few people express the idea that they'd like to fly their "virtual" flight in real time, mirroring exactly what is happening to the real flight, by using live ATC feeds such as the ones that have been discussed here, although they'd not be able to respond on line to the controller, or I for sure hope that they'd not be able to!!!
I'm not even going to start on the road of discussing the validity or otherwise of such practices, but they are happening.
In some cases, the people involved take it VERY seriously, to the point of obsession, and enemies have been made over very complex arguments in these areas.
To those of you that ATC for real, this probably looks like your worst nightmare. It may well be, although for training purposes, the thought of using internet virtual flyers, if they know what they are doing, might add some realism to the scenarios.
There are huge numbers of people out there with no aviation qualifications what so ever who take great delight in flying their virtual 747 from airfield A to airfield B using whatever flight simulator package appeals to them.
With the advent of the internet, and now broadband, they can even do this real time with other people, and there are now also add on packages available for the simulators that allow another person to act as an air traffic controller and control all these "virtual" aircraft. It used to be just pop up text messages on the screen, but broadband opens up the possibility of "real" audio, in real time.
I've also heard more than a few people express the idea that they'd like to fly their "virtual" flight in real time, mirroring exactly what is happening to the real flight, by using live ATC feeds such as the ones that have been discussed here, although they'd not be able to respond on line to the controller, or I for sure hope that they'd not be able to!!!
I'm not even going to start on the road of discussing the validity or otherwise of such practices, but they are happening.
In some cases, the people involved take it VERY seriously, to the point of obsession, and enemies have been made over very complex arguments in these areas.
To those of you that ATC for real, this probably looks like your worst nightmare. It may well be, although for training purposes, the thought of using internet virtual flyers, if they know what they are doing, might add some realism to the scenarios.
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…although very thread, I’m not going to comment on another can of worms Steve but I’d safely say that the virtual world and real life are in no way comparable at all. (In terms of the skills / stresses / strains / calibre of the individual needed to perform the tasks etc.) But your suggestion makes for interesting food for thought…
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Journeymen have a right to get righteous - they do the job, and they are not obliged to answer ANY question you put to them. Many have tried so far, out of courtesy and because that's what it's all about - for many of us, and not just on PPRuNe, but in real life.
But BAW001, you continue to use sarcasm, critcising people for disagreeing with you and calling into doubt their credentials to 'answer the question', while it seems your own are beyond doubt. You are winding up a lot of people in an industry which you ought to be able to get along with, and who ought to be able to get along with you.
There are already people employed at both LTCC and LACC to provide this service to ATCOs under recurrent and initial training- many are there because they have an enthusiasm for aviation and the ATC system which they enjoy putting into practice rather than whinging on PPRuNe.
No, but I don't see why anyone should make it easier for them!
..And what if it wasn't? 'Family sues airline/NATS for trauma experienced when they heard aircraft annoucing "diversion" and "fuel" and "catering problems" ' It's bad enough we have to let the general public vote!
I don't think you need to know how far over the Atlantic your parcel is, just when it's going to arrive - which is already catered for without live ATC feeds.
Fair idea - but that info is, again, available without providing LIVE ATC information. Anyway, I once read an article (I swear to God) in the Richmond, Twickenham & Teddington Gazette complaining at LHR ATC because 77% of approaches were made 'from the east, over the boroughs of Richmond [etc]...', any real ATCOs/Pilots can hopefully see the two major problems with this complaint - beware!
BAW 001 uses lots of words like "probably wouldn't affect security" and "wouldn't affect security very much" - well I'd rather it didn't affect it AT ALL, thanks very much.
Bolleaux to the public. If they want to influence how the professionals do the job, the queue for your ATPL exams is there and the NATS application form is in the post. And we'll call you in 5 years...
But BAW001, you continue to use sarcasm, critcising people for disagreeing with you and calling into doubt their credentials to 'answer the question', while it seems your own are beyond doubt. You are winding up a lot of people in an industry which you ought to be able to get along with, and who ought to be able to get along with you.
To those of you that ATC for real, this probably looks like your worst nightmare. It may well be, although for training purposes, the thought of using internet virtual flyers, if they know what they are doing, might add some realism to the scenarios.
If some nasties are intent on doing harm, would not having this sort of thing really stop them?
I’m just supposing it might prove comforting to them to be able to type in a flight number online and know that flight ‘abc’ was currently happily cruising at x over y on its why to z
Businesses would even by able to chart the progress of freighter a/c carrying important cargo.
More for community awareness of flight paths and such, which isn't a bad idea. Maybe for community relations it wouldn't be a bad idea for places like STN or LHR.
BAW 001 uses lots of words like "probably wouldn't affect security" and "wouldn't affect security very much" - well I'd rather it didn't affect it AT ALL, thanks very much.
Bolleaux to the public. If they want to influence how the professionals do the job, the queue for your ATPL exams is there and the NATS application form is in the post. And we'll call you in 5 years...
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Unless, some wannabe with a scanner gets you nervous when he reports that:
(I'll conceed I've probably gone a little over the top with some of my posts. But I stand by what I say)
just fed up of “journeymen” getting righteous and not answering the question
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You misquote me gary lager…
GL > ‘BAW 001 uses lots of words like "probably wouldn't affect security" and "wouldn't affect security very much" - well I'd rather it didn't affect it AT ALL, thanks very much.’
What I actually said regarding the safety of air travel (and have said all along) is:
001 > ‘which would not be compromised by the nominal developments I’m suggesting’ (11/5/05 17.59)
….which even pigdog can see. Aside from the fact that this has turned into a bar room brawl, I really can’t see how a moving map on the net endangers the security of an a/c. (please see 4 pages of discussion before posting something I’ve already dealt with)
*****
‘Perhaps carriers can use their internal datalink for a/c to report their real time positions direct to airline ops. Then it’s up to the carrier whether it publishes that on its website.’
*****
This technology will come into play in the future it’s just a question of when, and if AA or United include such a facility on their websites, it’ll be interesting to see who else follows suit…
Bygones people, lets just wait and see the future....
GL > ‘BAW 001 uses lots of words like "probably wouldn't affect security" and "wouldn't affect security very much" - well I'd rather it didn't affect it AT ALL, thanks very much.’
What I actually said regarding the safety of air travel (and have said all along) is:
001 > ‘which would not be compromised by the nominal developments I’m suggesting’ (11/5/05 17.59)
….which even pigdog can see. Aside from the fact that this has turned into a bar room brawl, I really can’t see how a moving map on the net endangers the security of an a/c. (please see 4 pages of discussion before posting something I’ve already dealt with)
*****
‘Perhaps carriers can use their internal datalink for a/c to report their real time positions direct to airline ops. Then it’s up to the carrier whether it publishes that on its website.’
*****
This technology will come into play in the future it’s just a question of when, and if AA or United include such a facility on their websites, it’ll be interesting to see who else follows suit…
Bygones people, lets just wait and see the future....
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Answer him so he gets it!
Sorry about the bush beating but there is a reason for the discretion.
Answer = real time = real time opportunity to issue heading for intercept for collision. That’s it. You can't by virtue of the law of physics issue headings to intercept after the event.
Real life example in the colonies;
A real idiot failed dumb student pilot loser issued an instruction from a handheld to a real aircraft in real time and if not for the skills of a fast thinking tower controller a disaster could have occurred. He went to jail. You will to if you think any further about doing stupid things and knowing way too much plus encouraging the other psychos out there to have ideas. It’s a similar reason that the worlds most popular TV show CSI should be banned.
Investigators in your country have the powers to put a watch on you based on your questions. The answer is NO LIVE FEEDS for a reason.
Answer = real time = real time opportunity to issue heading for intercept for collision. That’s it. You can't by virtue of the law of physics issue headings to intercept after the event.
Real life example in the colonies;
A real idiot failed dumb student pilot loser issued an instruction from a handheld to a real aircraft in real time and if not for the skills of a fast thinking tower controller a disaster could have occurred. He went to jail. You will to if you think any further about doing stupid things and knowing way too much plus encouraging the other psychos out there to have ideas. It’s a similar reason that the worlds most popular TV show CSI should be banned.
Investigators in your country have the powers to put a watch on you based on your questions. The answer is NO LIVE FEEDS for a reason.
More than just an ATCO
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Googling on "Air Traffic Control Radar Internet" I found some interesting sites, including this where BAW001 might be welcome.
I tried a couple of the links, quality of the audio is pathetic, but find this disturbing
.
WTH do they need to scan the police freqs for as well, unless it's for the ambulance chasers?
This has been going on too long; I'm beginning to suspect a wind-up or a journo on the troll.
Bye-bye
I tried a couple of the links, quality of the audio is pathetic, but find this disturbing
If you are within 20 miles of an airport and have a police scanner or any airband-capable scanning receiver, please consider becoming a feeder site.
WTH do they need to scan the police freqs for as well, unless it's for the ambulance chasers?
This has been going on too long; I'm beginning to suspect a wind-up or a journo on the troll.
Bye-bye
Last edited by Lon More; 12th May 2005 at 10:30.
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001 > ‘which would not be compromised by the nominal developments I’m suggesting’
….which even pigdog can see.
….which even pigdog can see.
Aside from the fact that this has turned into a bar room brawl, I really can’t see how a moving map on the net endangers the security of an a/c.
I would suggest it's a failing on your behalf, because Lord knows enough people have tried to politely explain it to you only to be met with sarcasm and patronising comments about the nature of our job and our professionalism. Please take that attitude to OASC with you, do us all a favour.
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You misquote me gary lager…
Thanks for doing it for me though:
‘which would not be compromised by the nominal developments I’m suggesting’
You questioned why these developments have not occurred here in the UK, you were given plenty of polite responses (and incidentally, just because I have only recently felt the impulse to post, doesn't mean I haven't been following the discussion for all those 4 pages - and I disagree completely with the assertion that once you 'deal' with a subject it is no longer open for discussion) but disagreed with the well-informed reasoning you were given so elected to consider them irrelevant.
So despite all your bleating to trhe contrary, it seems you were never interested in 'the question' which you bemoan the lack of 'an answer' to - but apparently just wanted to point out how wrong NATS is for not providing a live ATC for you for free.
I can cope with that - disagree with it, maybe - but accept it as a valid opinion, as can most on this forum. The 'bar-room brawl' you refer to appears in part to have provoked by your immature & sarcastic comments in response to those to disagree with, showing utter disregard for the company you keep here and winding up a treat all those here in professional aviation daft enough to try and help with your query.
Please, next time you say you are leaving (into the sunset, letting bygones be bygones, whatever) - mean it, or alternatively try to be as polite as me (which is a struggle at the moment) and let the discussion continue.
Genunie question: can we re-title the thread to somehow reflect the content more accurately?
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Why do people think that aviation is an area which should be open to the masses ?
Would you suggest we should have live feeds of teachers in their classrooms, Dr's in their surgeries, accountants in their offices.
I don't do my job for a spotters benefit I do it to provide an ATC service to aircraft.
BAW001 when the professionals involved i.e. ATCOs and Pilots don't want it there has to be a valid reason. Infact multiple reasons have been presented to you but you still don't see any harm in it.
The last thing we need is people with absolutely no Knowledge or even worse limited knowledge watching our every move, creating fear and apprehension amongst the flying public
as they simply have no real comprehension of how it all works.
We show people around ATC units and they find it terrifying and we are there to explain it, imagine if anyone could view it here.
There are so many reasons for it not to happen and I can think of no good reason for it to happen.
If you want to see how ATC works become an ATCO, now please accept what everyone has told you about how bad an idea it is for multiple reasons, not least the additional pressure it could place on ATCOs whilst they were working.
Would you suggest we should have live feeds of teachers in their classrooms, Dr's in their surgeries, accountants in their offices.
I don't do my job for a spotters benefit I do it to provide an ATC service to aircraft.
BAW001 when the professionals involved i.e. ATCOs and Pilots don't want it there has to be a valid reason. Infact multiple reasons have been presented to you but you still don't see any harm in it.
The last thing we need is people with absolutely no Knowledge or even worse limited knowledge watching our every move, creating fear and apprehension amongst the flying public
as they simply have no real comprehension of how it all works.
We show people around ATC units and they find it terrifying and we are there to explain it, imagine if anyone could view it here.
There are so many reasons for it not to happen and I can think of no good reason for it to happen.
If you want to see how ATC works become an ATCO, now please accept what everyone has told you about how bad an idea it is for multiple reasons, not least the additional pressure it could place on ATCOs whilst they were working.