Internet ATC Data Feeds (Was Safe Air Travel...?)
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Safe Air Travel...?
Excuse the nature of this contentious thread but I would like some watertight reasons for why the current legislation even stands…..
Over recent days I’ve been trying to find out if there are any good ways of charting (in real time) air traffic movements over the internet. Whilst I have been led to believe that it is illegal to publish live UK ATC feeds on the net, I have been listening to various stations in America…..
http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php
….whilst at the same time viewing aircraft movements online with a live feed from the passive secondary surveillance radar software from;
http://www.passur.com/index.html
………now although PASSUR is delayed by x mins for ‘security’ reasons I am really in doubt as to the need for this (simple arithmetic negates that hurdle!)
If we assume that we have an a/c approaching to land / takeoff at ‘abc’ airport:
1. Anyone can track its decent/climb profile with an air band scanner.
2. Anyone can stand under its approach/takeoff path
3. Anyone can learn R/T procedure
a. To the extent of identifying the a/c (livery/type) by sight…
(We spotters pride ourselves in it!)
I’m ‘all for’ safer air travel, yet all a/c in the immediate vicinity of landing / takeoff have a prolonged ‘window of vulnerability.’ For this reason (and the basic 3 above!) surely live internet feeds wouldn’t matter a jot to some b*****d intent on an ‘act’ to endanger an a/c of his choice from the ground.
I appreciate this is an incredibly delicate subject and I feel very uneasy posting it, but illegal or lagged feeds really seem like a token gesture and make a not jot of difference to the security of an inbound/outbound a/c.
What am I missing and what valid reasons substantiate not posting an online live ATC feed in all developed countries?
001 (…the greatest patriot this side of The English Channel!)
Over recent days I’ve been trying to find out if there are any good ways of charting (in real time) air traffic movements over the internet. Whilst I have been led to believe that it is illegal to publish live UK ATC feeds on the net, I have been listening to various stations in America…..
http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php
….whilst at the same time viewing aircraft movements online with a live feed from the passive secondary surveillance radar software from;
http://www.passur.com/index.html
………now although PASSUR is delayed by x mins for ‘security’ reasons I am really in doubt as to the need for this (simple arithmetic negates that hurdle!)
If we assume that we have an a/c approaching to land / takeoff at ‘abc’ airport:
1. Anyone can track its decent/climb profile with an air band scanner.
2. Anyone can stand under its approach/takeoff path
3. Anyone can learn R/T procedure
a. To the extent of identifying the a/c (livery/type) by sight…
(We spotters pride ourselves in it!)
I’m ‘all for’ safer air travel, yet all a/c in the immediate vicinity of landing / takeoff have a prolonged ‘window of vulnerability.’ For this reason (and the basic 3 above!) surely live internet feeds wouldn’t matter a jot to some b*****d intent on an ‘act’ to endanger an a/c of his choice from the ground.
I appreciate this is an incredibly delicate subject and I feel very uneasy posting it, but illegal or lagged feeds really seem like a token gesture and make a not jot of difference to the security of an inbound/outbound a/c.
What am I missing and what valid reasons substantiate not posting an online live ATC feed in all developed countries?
001 (…the greatest patriot this side of The English Channel!)
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Quite aside from any security implications, which I'm sure someone better qualified than I to discuss them will outline (although the case against a radar feed in particular should be fairly obvious), why is it the job of pilots and ATCOs to provide entertainment to anyone who feels like listening in?
If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, how would an office worker feel about someone placing a microphone in their place of work and broadcasting their discussions with work colleagues and telephone conversations across the internet?
I'm sure there are many controllers who would revel in broadcasting to an attentive audience
, but I'm equally sure there are many of us who wouldn't want to come home at the end of a hard shift to find enthusiasts casting a critical eye over their day's performance on internet bulletin boards.
If I may play devil's advocate for a moment, how would an office worker feel about someone placing a microphone in their place of work and broadcasting their discussions with work colleagues and telephone conversations across the internet?
I'm sure there are many controllers who would revel in broadcasting to an attentive audience
, but I'm equally sure there are many of us who wouldn't want to come home at the end of a hard shift to find enthusiasts casting a critical eye over their day's performance on internet bulletin boards.
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001,
I thought you spotter boys had to see the aircraft for 'real' to log it in your book?
The main reason we would not be happy with ATC radar (delayed or not) on the net are mainly due to security reasons. There are plonkers out there who 'get off' on trying to push out hoax instructions to pilots. The less ammo we give them, the less chance of a disaster. While we respect your right to enjoy your hobby, some things are best left just as there are. The Wireless Telegraphy Act also comes into play here.
As for what the Yanks do on the Net is up to them, they of all people should be ultra sensitive to this information being freely available in light of 9/11
I thought you spotter boys had to see the aircraft for 'real' to log it in your book?
The main reason we would not be happy with ATC radar (delayed or not) on the net are mainly due to security reasons. There are plonkers out there who 'get off' on trying to push out hoax instructions to pilots. The less ammo we give them, the less chance of a disaster. While we respect your right to enjoy your hobby, some things are best left just as there are. The Wireless Telegraphy Act also comes into play here.
As for what the Yanks do on the Net is up to them, they of all people should be ultra sensitive to this information being freely available in light of 9/11
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Come on someone must have an answer....!
…and you became interested in Air Traffic movements; how exactly?
Forgive me if I’m wrong but shy ATCO’s have no place in the industry and would be foolish to think that only pilots are listening. (“occupational hazard, I’m afraid rodan”)
…..and please do enlighten the group as to the ‘obvious’ safety issues of a live radar feed? (“It was rather the original question….”)
001
Forgive me if I’m wrong but shy ATCO’s have no place in the industry and would be foolish to think that only pilots are listening. (“occupational hazard, I’m afraid rodan”)
…..and please do enlighten the group as to the ‘obvious’ safety issues of a live radar feed? (“It was rather the original question….”)
001
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…and you became interested in Air Traffic movements; how exactly?
Anyway, I am still unsure why you would want to look at a radar picture and listen in on a scanner unless you were sad or up to no good.
If you want to see live radar, get in contact with local airport PR people or the Community Relations Officer at your local RAF station. They are usually willing to help spotters enjoy themselves and I'm sure a visit to your friendly ATC tower could be arranged.
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…and you became interested in Air Traffic movements; how exactly?
Forgive me if I’m wrong but shy ATCO’s have no place in the industry and would be foolish to think that only pilots are listening. (“occupational hazard, I’m afraid rodan”)
…..and please do enlighten the group as to the ‘obvious’ safety issues of a live radar feed? (“It was rather the original question….”)
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Not aimed at you Flobadob!! (you posted while I was replying!)
(and Wittering are always too busy besides....)
Thanks Flobadob for a worthy answer which is a little closer to the mark and I can fully appreciate the reasons you give.
But, anyone in the industry worth their salt is surely aware that all you need is:
1. an RPG
2. a Timetable
….not having live INTERNET feeds (as a security measure) is as much good as chocolate underpants. I think the Americans have realised this but we Brits do like to think that if we close our eyes, no one else will notice the cracks. The cause has no bearing on the effect where this legislation is concerned.
001 ( and yes 001 is very sad, for many reasons!)
**I DONT ENDORSE SUCH ACTIONS WHATSOEVER BUT JUST STATING THE UNPALATABLE TRUTH OF THE MATTER**
…some chav having stolen an old escort xr3 in slough at 1.30am will probably have other things on his mind than speedbird 174 climbing out of KJFK (supposedly using a wireless broadband connection on his stolen laptop?…..but thanks for the thought; how entertaining! Ps: a noisy twin squirrel and the 4 panda cars giving chase rather put a damper on any hint of covert a/c ops.!)
001
(and Wittering are always too busy besides....)
Thanks Flobadob for a worthy answer which is a little closer to the mark and I can fully appreciate the reasons you give.
But, anyone in the industry worth their salt is surely aware that all you need is:
1. an RPG
2. a Timetable
….not having live INTERNET feeds (as a security measure) is as much good as chocolate underpants. I think the Americans have realised this but we Brits do like to think that if we close our eyes, no one else will notice the cracks. The cause has no bearing on the effect where this legislation is concerned.
001 ( and yes 001 is very sad, for many reasons!)
**I DONT ENDORSE SUCH ACTIONS WHATSOEVER BUT JUST STATING THE UNPALATABLE TRUTH OF THE MATTER**
…some chav having stolen an old escort xr3 in slough at 1.30am will probably have other things on his mind than speedbird 174 climbing out of KJFK (supposedly using a wireless broadband connection on his stolen laptop?…..but thanks for the thought; how entertaining! Ps: a noisy twin squirrel and the 4 panda cars giving chase rather put a damper on any hint of covert a/c ops.!)
001
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There's: 1) the truth 2) the rules 3) and the real world...........
Yeah, like it's illegal to record off the radio as well....
...but then we are all law abiding puritans aren't we.....rodan?
QED
001
...but then we are all law abiding puritans aren't we.....rodan?
QED
001
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I draw your attention to this thread . This is a classic example of hearing somthing and hitting the "major drama button". I once read a story that made the Daily Mail regarding a go-around that somebody heard over a scanner and told the press.........I was the controller involved and it was nothing like what actually happened, but it made some sensational reading.
I don't think it's a matter of trying to keep secret what we do, it just that it can very easily be mis-interpreted and used for all manner of things (damn press), and unfortunately as controllers, we're not in a position to defend/tell our side.
I don't think it's a matter of trying to keep secret what we do, it just that it can very easily be mis-interpreted and used for all manner of things (damn press), and unfortunately as controllers, we're not in a position to defend/tell our side.
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…some chav having stolen an old escort xr3 in slough at 1.30am will probably have other things on his mind than speedbird 174 climbing out of KJFK (supposedly using a wireless broadband connection on his stolen laptop?…..but thanks for the thought; how entertaining! Ps: a noisy twin squirrel and the 4 panda cars giving chase rather put a damper on any hint of covert a/c ops.!)
PIGDOG, your answer is contained here
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Thanks Rodan, I got it.
"This means that it is also illegal to tell a third party what has been heard."
I was close, but essentially way off!!
But doesn't that, technically, put a student pilot without an RT licence on the wrong side of the law?
"This means that it is also illegal to tell a third party what has been heard."
I was close, but essentially way off!!
But doesn't that, technically, put a student pilot without an RT licence on the wrong side of the law?
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Think on it
Bygones rodan…..
I don’t have any bones with the fine work of the aerial police units so forget that and remember this…..
….the information fed to RML / PASSUR for online broadcast includes only: a/c type, height, speed and heading of that civilian air traffic entering / departing only major civilian airports.
1) Any of these fields can be withheld by the web host. (i.e. company / destination, etc as they currently are….)
a. But a quick look at the departure timetable and the addition of a time lag to the equation quickly puts you in the picture for tomorrow’s schedule of departures for said airport.
2) Key squawk codes can be withheld from the online map….(I’m sure if a kittyhawk flight flew into KJFK then it would never be published…and rightly so!)
3) All the ‘secure’ air traffic is treated differently:
a. I’m not expecting RAF stations, only the major hubs.
b. I’m sure Police traffic wouldn’t be published as it would also be considered ‘too sensitive.’
A muse:
……. once upon a time the late Victorians waved red flags in front of pioneering motor cars to ensure they stayed within the law (rather than advocating seat belts and speed restrictions)….
…..once up on a time, the second Elizabethans favoured lagged radar ATC feeds on the net (rather than restricting access to the land under approach / takeoff paths and equipping EVERY a/c with chaff flares) But then by the late Charles III period, no one really cared anymore and air traffic centres realised they could make serious money from selling this data online to tour operators and business without compromising the safety of a/c any further than was ‘already the case……’
I don’t have any bones with the fine work of the aerial police units so forget that and remember this…..
….the information fed to RML / PASSUR for online broadcast includes only: a/c type, height, speed and heading of that civilian air traffic entering / departing only major civilian airports.
1) Any of these fields can be withheld by the web host. (i.e. company / destination, etc as they currently are….)
a. But a quick look at the departure timetable and the addition of a time lag to the equation quickly puts you in the picture for tomorrow’s schedule of departures for said airport.
2) Key squawk codes can be withheld from the online map….(I’m sure if a kittyhawk flight flew into KJFK then it would never be published…and rightly so!)
3) All the ‘secure’ air traffic is treated differently:
a. I’m not expecting RAF stations, only the major hubs.
b. I’m sure Police traffic wouldn’t be published as it would also be considered ‘too sensitive.’
A muse:
……. once upon a time the late Victorians waved red flags in front of pioneering motor cars to ensure they stayed within the law (rather than advocating seat belts and speed restrictions)….
…..once up on a time, the second Elizabethans favoured lagged radar ATC feeds on the net (rather than restricting access to the land under approach / takeoff paths and equipping EVERY a/c with chaff flares) But then by the late Charles III period, no one really cared anymore and air traffic centres realised they could make serious money from selling this data online to tour operators and business without compromising the safety of a/c any further than was ‘already the case……’
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For my tuppence worth. Pilots/Atco's are highly qualified professionals, for unqualified peoply to make comments/criticims on their work should not be allowed. I fell out with a spotter once for making remarks towards me. I knew the chap through the flying club who made comments from listening to the r/t. He was not qualified to comment on the scenario nor had a real picture of the situation just from listening on the VHF.
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In the US you can buy the professional version of a couple different trackers that take the info that the FAA gives out to the providers for free. You can use this to watch traffic all over the place. There are a couple of filters in place, but for the most part you are able to look at everything.
As many of you know, you can also find a few sites that have the radio traffic on it too. Listening is no problem here in the states, just recording it and giving it to someone else such as a news station. That is a no, no...
regards
Scott
As many of you know, you can also find a few sites that have the radio traffic on it too. Listening is no problem here in the states, just recording it and giving it to someone else such as a news station. That is a no, no...
regards
Scott
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I endorse your sentiments wholeheartedly ILS 119.5 but your viewpoint runs parallel to this thread rather than in the same vein. Jericho has provided a link to an example where such uninformed scaremongering ‘taints’ plane conversation (pun intended). You will always get this so long as people listen to ATC frequencies and then vent their fears in a debating forum designed for the purpose of informed conversation.*
*dependant on how informed you/others, consider you are
>>>>>>>>>
My original thread is more so aimed at why ‘not providing a live’ online ATC / PASSUR feed is ‘any safer’ than providing ‘one at all’, (which is lagged by a published fixed timeframe) which is the case in America to date.
Example A (current circumstances)
If we measured the info available to spotters today ‘without a live internet feed’ as a % rating then it currently stands at about 80% (scanners / airline timetables / RT basics …etc ensure that a spotter can be pretty sure when an a/c is about to land or depart)
But….
If we measured the info available to spotters (in example A) AND INCLUDE a ‘live online feed’, then as a % rating - the amount of sensitive information would increase by only a small factor relative to all the data that is ALREADY broadcast and widely available……
001
*dependant on how informed you/others, consider you are
>>>>>>>>>
My original thread is more so aimed at why ‘not providing a live’ online ATC / PASSUR feed is ‘any safer’ than providing ‘one at all’, (which is lagged by a published fixed timeframe) which is the case in America to date.
Example A (current circumstances)
If we measured the info available to spotters today ‘without a live internet feed’ as a % rating then it currently stands at about 80% (scanners / airline timetables / RT basics …etc ensure that a spotter can be pretty sure when an a/c is about to land or depart)
But….
If we measured the info available to spotters (in example A) AND INCLUDE a ‘live online feed’, then as a % rating - the amount of sensitive information would increase by only a small factor relative to all the data that is ALREADY broadcast and widely available……
001
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BA001
Putting aside all the legal questions (which you seem to be ignoring in any case).
Who is going to pay to connect up and run this live radar feed? Why would any ATSP have any interest in doing so, unless they ran it as a commercial concern and I very much doubt that there's going to be sufficient spotters willing to pay hard cash to make it worthwhile.
Also how exactly would the providers filter out certain squawks and military flights, the UK provides a joint and integrated ATC En Route service. Unless there is just one aerodrome who's traffic interests you?
It appears from your posts that you're demanding wider availibility of commercial data for FREE for your particular hobby. I should remind you that ATC in the UK is no longer in the public sector, it is run as a commercial enterprise. I cannot imagine any company in the UK allowing (what are effectively) CCTV cameras into its offices and work areas giving live feeds to the internet along with voice as well.
BTW I do wonder why Wittering are unwilling to allow you in, have you made a nuisance of yourself? From the tone of your posts in here you reminded me of an old saying my Mum uses. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
BD
Who is going to pay to connect up and run this live radar feed? Why would any ATSP have any interest in doing so, unless they ran it as a commercial concern and I very much doubt that there's going to be sufficient spotters willing to pay hard cash to make it worthwhile.
Also how exactly would the providers filter out certain squawks and military flights, the UK provides a joint and integrated ATC En Route service. Unless there is just one aerodrome who's traffic interests you?
It appears from your posts that you're demanding wider availibility of commercial data for FREE for your particular hobby. I should remind you that ATC in the UK is no longer in the public sector, it is run as a commercial enterprise. I cannot imagine any company in the UK allowing (what are effectively) CCTV cameras into its offices and work areas giving live feeds to the internet along with voice as well.
BTW I do wonder why Wittering are unwilling to allow you in, have you made a nuisance of yourself? From the tone of your posts in here you reminded me of an old saying my Mum uses. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
BD
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Security is a significant issue here.
Whilst I would prsonally welcome an all informed public, I'm not so sure I would want todays terrorists realising that all aircraft inbound airfield A fly over reporting point B at FL C. I suppose you would continue to counter this argument with the fact that you can validate this data by RT alone - it all comes down to the level and accuracy of detail that is readily available.
It is possible to filter sensitive flights and then promulgate the sanitised data on the internet. However, why should this be done, at cost, just so you can follow your hobby? Propose a business case to CE NATS and see how much he would charge you for the privilege.
Whilst I would prsonally welcome an all informed public, I'm not so sure I would want todays terrorists realising that all aircraft inbound airfield A fly over reporting point B at FL C. I suppose you would continue to counter this argument with the fact that you can validate this data by RT alone - it all comes down to the level and accuracy of detail that is readily available.
It is possible to filter sensitive flights and then promulgate the sanitised data on the internet. However, why should this be done, at cost, just so you can follow your hobby? Propose a business case to CE NATS and see how much he would charge you for the privilege.
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NATS Business Case
Ah! Well just raising an Investment Proposal and getting this as far as an AOD (Analysis, Options & Design) would cost an absolute minimum of £35k. Into F&O (Feasibility & Options) and dependent on the available options with engineering solutions would be circa £150k at external business rates (because this is not NATS core or internal business). Dependent on the chosen option, implementation (including testing) would be a minimum of another £50k and deployment around £25k. Maintenance and running costs are unknown.
The above costs are based on standard sorts of projects, although not on FRS15 rates but make or buy and are probably on the slightly low side. Not a cheap thing to provide and I think I could be certain that this would be shot down in flames at the very first pass through the IPT.
'Show me the money!'
BD
The above costs are based on standard sorts of projects, although not on FRS15 rates but make or buy and are probably on the slightly low side. Not a cheap thing to provide and I think I could be certain that this would be shot down in flames at the very first pass through the IPT.
'Show me the money!'
BD