Internet ATC Data Feeds (Was Safe Air Travel...?)
Beady Eye
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Gonzo
I can only urge my Right Honourable collegues to follow the Right Honourable Gonzo's advice (hear, hear, hear!). Enough time has been wasted knocking on the door of a closed mind. 
Nice to see the thread title change :-)
BD
Nice to see the thread title change :-)
BD
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I only wanted similar ‘reasonable’ explanations like those given in this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=173997
I must have caught the first few post-ees on a bad day (which agitated me from the outset) and I’m truly sorry for any offence I caused anyone (thereafter) and that I’m only guilty of being as zealous at ‘cocky retorts’ as the rest of you. Sarcasm can be found in most threads on PPRuNe and although there is NO need for it, I was WRONG to be goaded into the banter which undermined the debate from the outset and which I thought could be kept separate. But now I know.
I can assure you I appreciate what EACH ONE of you has said if you referred to the question at hand.
001
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=173997
I must have caught the first few post-ees on a bad day (which agitated me from the outset) and I’m truly sorry for any offence I caused anyone (thereafter) and that I’m only guilty of being as zealous at ‘cocky retorts’ as the rest of you. Sarcasm can be found in most threads on PPRuNe and although there is NO need for it, I was WRONG to be goaded into the banter which undermined the debate from the outset and which I thought could be kept separate. But now I know.
I can assure you I appreciate what EACH ONE of you has said if you referred to the question at hand.
001
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> For my tuppence worth. Pilots/Atco's are highly
> qualified professionals, for unqualified peoply to
> make comments/criticims on their work should
> not be allowed.
Should not be allowed??? Are you suggesting there should be a law against it or something? "Norman Stanley Fletcher, you are hereby sentenced to five years for the crime of commenting on the work of a pilot?" In the US, scanners are legal, and live ATC audio and data feeds are available. Indeed, since the ATC data is generated with tax money, it belongs to the people! Odd how when you start from the premise that the national airspace system is owned by the citizens, you end up with different conclusions re so many things...
> qualified professionals, for unqualified peoply to
> make comments/criticims on their work should
> not be allowed.
Should not be allowed??? Are you suggesting there should be a law against it or something? "Norman Stanley Fletcher, you are hereby sentenced to five years for the crime of commenting on the work of a pilot?" In the US, scanners are legal, and live ATC audio and data feeds are available. Indeed, since the ATC data is generated with tax money, it belongs to the people! Odd how when you start from the premise that the national airspace system is owned by the citizens, you end up with different conclusions re so many things...
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"national airspace system is owned by the citizens"
Sadly not it is owned by the airline group and the staff and the Government. Therefore not owned by the citizens.
Unfortunately...................
Sadly not it is owned by the airline group and the staff and the Government. Therefore not owned by the citizens.
Unfortunately...................
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Now, we're wandering to yet another thread title change...
Who owns British airspace?
….although it’s rude to discuss business and politics, so it might be wise to let that 1 fly.
001
Who owns British airspace?
….although it’s rude to discuss business and politics, so it might be wise to let that 1 fly.
001
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roflmfao.
Nice Answer
Regards
I\'ve been holding off on this thread.... or was it that thread lol
I would pose the inverse question; why is it NOT be an area open to the masses? Are you keeping some dark secret that you don\'t want any of us to know about? Is working in the aviation industry the panacea to all ills and the supplier of life everlasting? 
001\'s original question, while possibly having the ability to be construed as naive, did have some merit.
The position of ranting from the standpoint of \'thats the way it is\' is not argument, just pure belligerance.
I will agree that some of his allusions were what could be best described as futile or simplistic and may well have deserved some gentle ribbing, but that does not detract from the fact that his questions were only truly addressed by PPrune Radar in the direct referral to NATs agreements with local service providors.
Actually, as an interested ATC onlooker, who incidently (directed towards Lonmore) does not own, let alone keep records within, a \'black book\' lol...., it has been disheartening to see the exclusionistic culture that some of you guys seem to wish to maintain to protect your profession.
The provision of live Internet Data feeds, which is a far cry from allowing ATC transmissions to be legally received, is something that even I, as a mere pleb, would feel nervous about for various reasons, some of which have been mentioned within the thread. That\'s even leaving aside for the moment the technical and financial considerations that have been raised.
The general consensus seems to be that the current Wireless Telegraphy Act is paid no more than lip-service in respect to ATC communications; to my mind quite rightly. If the spirit of the law (ie: the non-onward transmission or reporting of such communication) is maintained then the letter would appear to be as intact as is required, while allowing those that may wish to maybe learn and appreciate a small fraction of what you guys do every day the opportunity to do so.
I fail to understand why, with the exception of the misreporting in the media aspects, you seem to be almost universal in your condemnation when any \'outsider\' even so much as hints that they may have overheard any RT.
It is no great secret WHERE or WHEN most airliners fly and the fact of knowing that a certain arrival is to be, for instance, "FL130 by The Bottom Of My Garden" to me seems irrelevant, since, if I were of \'that\' frame of mind, I could be at my desk with my RPG and could take my pick; a terrorist does not care of the nationality of victims, unless a specific target is in mind, and with that exception the act in itself it is purely a matter of media coverage and \'terror-perpetuation\'. Unless all ATC RT communications are encrypted somehow then the bad-guys will always be able to snoop; drawing their own conclusions from the, as pointed out by yourselves, incomplete data and information that is available over the airwaves as well as their own via on-the-spot observation.
As other posters have implied, the media seems to be responsible for at least some of this attitude. Their (\'the media\'; in case you weren\'t sure lol) irresponsible and inaccurate reporting is just laughable in general not just when considered in relation to the aviation industry; maybe it\'s because their next-best story is some B-List f**k-wit shagging another B-list f**k-wit; sad to say but the state of the UK news media, and TV in general, is pretty much summed up by the term \'bottom-feeders\'. It doesn\'t mean that we all have to either pander to their whims or give-in to their brain-addled paranoia or sensationalism; it also means that we don\'t have to believe the rubbish they can spout either.
I\'m too old to get behind a live \'scope so it matters not to me but I think you should be a little less \'spiky\' when certain topics appear that are patently initiated by those that are NOT within your \'community\'.
I\'m afraid that outsiders will post, unless you get Danny to make the ATC forum, or even dare I say the whole of PPRuNe, a private forum accessible only by submitting your NATS/Airline/HAL/etc employee ID number. And what a sad day that would be; for all of \'you\' as well as all of \'us\'
Nice Answer
Regards
I\'ve been holding off on this thread.... or was it that thread lol
Why do people think that aviation is an area which should be open to the masses
001\'s original question, while possibly having the ability to be construed as naive, did have some merit.
The position of ranting from the standpoint of \'thats the way it is\' is not argument, just pure belligerance.
I will agree that some of his allusions were what could be best described as futile or simplistic and may well have deserved some gentle ribbing, but that does not detract from the fact that his questions were only truly addressed by PPrune Radar in the direct referral to NATs agreements with local service providors.
Actually, as an interested ATC onlooker, who incidently (directed towards Lonmore) does not own, let alone keep records within, a \'black book\' lol...., it has been disheartening to see the exclusionistic culture that some of you guys seem to wish to maintain to protect your profession.
The provision of live Internet Data feeds, which is a far cry from allowing ATC transmissions to be legally received, is something that even I, as a mere pleb, would feel nervous about for various reasons, some of which have been mentioned within the thread. That\'s even leaving aside for the moment the technical and financial considerations that have been raised.
The general consensus seems to be that the current Wireless Telegraphy Act is paid no more than lip-service in respect to ATC communications; to my mind quite rightly. If the spirit of the law (ie: the non-onward transmission or reporting of such communication) is maintained then the letter would appear to be as intact as is required, while allowing those that may wish to maybe learn and appreciate a small fraction of what you guys do every day the opportunity to do so.
I fail to understand why, with the exception of the misreporting in the media aspects, you seem to be almost universal in your condemnation when any \'outsider\' even so much as hints that they may have overheard any RT.
It is no great secret WHERE or WHEN most airliners fly and the fact of knowing that a certain arrival is to be, for instance, "FL130 by The Bottom Of My Garden" to me seems irrelevant, since, if I were of \'that\' frame of mind, I could be at my desk with my RPG and could take my pick; a terrorist does not care of the nationality of victims, unless a specific target is in mind, and with that exception the act in itself it is purely a matter of media coverage and \'terror-perpetuation\'. Unless all ATC RT communications are encrypted somehow then the bad-guys will always be able to snoop; drawing their own conclusions from the, as pointed out by yourselves, incomplete data and information that is available over the airwaves as well as their own via on-the-spot observation.
As other posters have implied, the media seems to be responsible for at least some of this attitude. Their (\'the media\'; in case you weren\'t sure lol) irresponsible and inaccurate reporting is just laughable in general not just when considered in relation to the aviation industry; maybe it\'s because their next-best story is some B-List f**k-wit shagging another B-list f**k-wit; sad to say but the state of the UK news media, and TV in general, is pretty much summed up by the term \'bottom-feeders\'. It doesn\'t mean that we all have to either pander to their whims or give-in to their brain-addled paranoia or sensationalism; it also means that we don\'t have to believe the rubbish they can spout either.
I\'m too old to get behind a live \'scope so it matters not to me but I think you should be a little less \'spiky\' when certain topics appear that are patently initiated by those that are NOT within your \'community\'.
I\'m afraid that outsiders will post, unless you get Danny to make the ATC forum, or even dare I say the whole of PPRuNe, a private forum accessible only by submitting your NATS/Airline/HAL/etc employee ID number. And what a sad day that would be; for all of \'you\' as well as all of \'us\'
Beady Eye
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MOCOMAN
I shall try to give a 'professional' answer which should (hopefully) finish this thread off.
There are no 'live' ATC internet feeds in the UK because there is no legal requirement and it is not a CAA licensing requirement on the ATSP's to provide one.
Reading the PASSUR site there appears to be a need for ATSP's in the USA for the data which that company provides (although I'm a bit dubious about how the number of aircraft handled relates to when you need to re-surface the runway). In the UK (and Europe) things like En-Route fees are handled by a centralised computer system. 'Live' landing times at airports are taken from a feed off of NAS, hence you get a longer lead time for flights from the US than from France etc. So in the UK there is no business need as well as no legal nor licensing need. Therefore the ATSP's have no need to go to the trouble and expense of providing it.
BD
There are no 'live' ATC internet feeds in the UK because there is no legal requirement and it is not a CAA licensing requirement on the ATSP's to provide one.
Reading the PASSUR site there appears to be a need for ATSP's in the USA for the data which that company provides (although I'm a bit dubious about how the number of aircraft handled relates to when you need to re-surface the runway). In the UK (and Europe) things like En-Route fees are handled by a centralised computer system. 'Live' landing times at airports are taken from a feed off of NAS, hence you get a longer lead time for flights from the US than from France etc. So in the UK there is no business need as well as no legal nor licensing need. Therefore the ATSP's have no need to go to the trouble and expense of providing it.
BD
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BDiONU,
I too feel that there is no need for a live internet feed in the UK, however, your concise analysis makes the reasons perfectly clear.
many thanks.
I too feel that there is no need for a live internet feed in the UK, however, your concise analysis makes the reasons perfectly clear.
many thanks.
Last edited by mocoman; 15th May 2005 at 09:28.
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Out of interest would anyone like to say on the record whether they condone this (apparently) ‘burgeoning product line’ >
http://www.airnavsystems.com/index.htm
a simple YES or NO will do....
http://www.airnavsystems.com/index.htm
a simple YES or NO will do....
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001,
'tis not the same sh*t, just a variation thereof
To my mind, you are flogging a dead horse; there is no commercial, practical or legislative reason that could possibly support the broadcast of UK airspace data.
Regards
'tis not the same sh*t, just a variation thereof
To my mind, you are flogging a dead horse; there is no commercial, practical or legislative reason that could possibly support the broadcast of UK airspace data.
Regards
Last edited by mocoman; 16th May 2005 at 00:15.
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speedbirdzerozeroone > posted 12th May 2005 20:57
*
I can assure you I appreciate what EACH ONE of you has said if you referred to the question at hand.
*
Mocoman> posted 15th May 2005 00:39
***
his questions were only truly addressed by PPrune Radar in the direct referral to NATs agreements with local service providors.
***
……thanks Mocoman, you just rumbled me….. (lol)
*
I can assure you I appreciate what EACH ONE of you has said if you referred to the question at hand.
*
Mocoman> posted 15th May 2005 00:39
***
his questions were only truly addressed by PPrune Radar in the direct referral to NATs agreements with local service providors.
***
……thanks Mocoman, you just rumbled me….. (lol)
Ohcirrej
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I have a question about the site you've just linked there BAW001
I'm finding it really hard to think of such a profession........aside from ATC 
If tracking airline flights is something you need to do with precision for your profession
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Hi Jerrico;
How about airlines, part 135 operations and even part 91 operations tracking their aircraft. There are all sorts of folks who have a legitimate desire to know where aircraft are at.
regards
Scott
How about airlines, part 135 operations and even part 91 operations tracking their aircraft. There are all sorts of folks who have a legitimate desire to know where aircraft are at.
regards
Scott
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Hi Scott,
mmm, so where does one draw the line?
I'd rather have that decision firmly in the hands of the service providors than leaving it open to a 'Freedom-Of-Information' kinda deal....
Regards
all sorts of folks who have a legitimate desire to know where aircraft are at
I'd rather have that decision firmly in the hands of the service providors than leaving it open to a 'Freedom-Of-Information' kinda deal....
Regards
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Howdy;
It doesn't really bother me if folks can see where folks are in the NAS. It isn't quite real time, and any real secure stuff isn't shown, so I don't see a big deal. Just as I don't think that listening on a scanner is anything bad. We have folks that listen to the police, fire and ATC stuff all the time. It is harmless and lets them have some fun. Do you sometimes get cranks calling you? Yup, but guess what, we get those who don't have scanners either <G>....
regards
Scott
It doesn't really bother me if folks can see where folks are in the NAS. It isn't quite real time, and any real secure stuff isn't shown, so I don't see a big deal. Just as I don't think that listening on a scanner is anything bad. We have folks that listen to the police, fire and ATC stuff all the time. It is harmless and lets them have some fun. Do you sometimes get cranks calling you? Yup, but guess what, we get those who don't have scanners either <G>....
regards
Scott
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Scott,
security is not my concern; see my previous....
As BD... has so rightly pointed out there is, within the UK, no commercial (or legal or statutory) need for that data to be provided for such dissemination. Also, as you imply, any person wishing can have access using a scanner and can, if they are of a mind to, construct a fairly good representation of what they hear.
Hence my scepticism as to why any further promulgation should be required.
Regards
PS
and yes, I get crank calls lol... (infinite mobile-phones and monkeys spring to mind ;-))
EDIT: cos the word 'infinite' does my head in every time lol
security is not my concern; see my previous....
As BD... has so rightly pointed out there is, within the UK, no commercial (or legal or statutory) need for that data to be provided for such dissemination. Also, as you imply, any person wishing can have access using a scanner and can, if they are of a mind to, construct a fairly good representation of what they hear.
Hence my scepticism as to why any further promulgation should be required.
Regards
PS
and yes, I get crank calls lol... (infinite mobile-phones and monkeys spring to mind ;-))
EDIT: cos the word 'infinite' does my head in every time lol
Last edited by mocoman; 18th May 2005 at 02:47.