BRI - This & That WARNING
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BRI - This & That WARNING
Here's an email I haven't had a reply to from BRI ATC of recent:
Dear BRI ATC,
I am an airline pilot often using your services at or
overhead BRS.
On your ATISs there are often "warnings" at the end of
the transmission. For instance: Gale Warning Current,
Snow Warning Current, Fog Warning Current, Frost Warning Current
Now I don't recall, or indeed none of my colleagues
do, having learnt about such "warnings" in our days at
college. Nor do we recall any older or indeed recent
NOTAMS that explain or confirm the existence of such
expressions.
Further to this. Could you also explain what are these
warnings meant to achieve. For instance are they there
to prevent someone from 'wanting' to come to BRS due
to the "warned" condition? Or just to inform them in
case they haven't bothered to check the weather before
taking off?
I have now been flying for almost 20 years
commercially, but have never come across this in any
other European Airport.
Please, if there's is anyone upstairs could you
explain to me so I can then pass it on to my
colleagues, as to what these messages are all about,
after all we might learn something we have missed out
on.
Regards
Dear BRI ATC,
I am an airline pilot often using your services at or
overhead BRS.
On your ATISs there are often "warnings" at the end of
the transmission. For instance: Gale Warning Current,
Snow Warning Current, Fog Warning Current, Frost Warning Current
Now I don't recall, or indeed none of my colleagues
do, having learnt about such "warnings" in our days at
college. Nor do we recall any older or indeed recent
NOTAMS that explain or confirm the existence of such
expressions.
Further to this. Could you also explain what are these
warnings meant to achieve. For instance are they there
to prevent someone from 'wanting' to come to BRS due
to the "warned" condition? Or just to inform them in
case they haven't bothered to check the weather before
taking off?
I have now been flying for almost 20 years
commercially, but have never come across this in any
other European Airport.
Please, if there's is anyone upstairs could you
explain to me so I can then pass it on to my
colleagues, as to what these messages are all about,
after all we might learn something we have missed out
on.
Regards
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Fool's
Thats a good Q. Especially given that they are oftimes giving 'Fog warning current' but you can see bleeding Cardiff from the 09 threshold!
They,ve stopped doing it now but it used to be the practice at BRS, when the wx was ****ty, (which it often is!), to make you state your 'souls on board' as you taxiied. As if they expected you were going to have a whoopsy. Needless to say the fire crews were 'stood to' during these high risk ops
I tell you, BRS is a funny place
Thats a good Q. Especially given that they are oftimes giving 'Fog warning current' but you can see bleeding Cardiff from the 09 threshold!
They,ve stopped doing it now but it used to be the practice at BRS, when the wx was ****ty, (which it often is!), to make you state your 'souls on board' as you taxiied. As if they expected you were going to have a whoopsy. Needless to say the fire crews were 'stood to' during these high risk ops
I tell you, BRS is a funny place
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Having the RFFS on standby in certain WX conditions is nothing strange, my guess is that Local orders require it-ours do in low viz especially
what I find strange is crew who tell you they have a problem-but then insist its not enough to warrant calling out the RFFS-that is the point I am on the phone!
what I find strange is crew who tell you they have a problem-but then insist its not enough to warrant calling out the RFFS-that is the point I am on the phone!
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Bristol I guess are giving pilots a heads up that they have received a weather warning from the MET office and are using the atis to advise pilots that a weather warning is in force.
Might be a bit more useful if it said something more like " Gale warning in force westerly gusts of 60kts expected, Valid until xx".
TIO
Might be a bit more useful if it said something more like " Gale warning in force westerly gusts of 60kts expected, Valid until xx".
TIO
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Have a look at the UK AIP Gen 3. There’s some information there about warnings that Aerodrome Operators should disseminate.
I know it can be annoying when “windshear has been reported on final” appears on the ATIS all day when clearly it is no longer plausible, but I guess they’re just covering their backs.
There is also a good section there on the definition of Turbulence , which I believe is often confused with windshear.
I know it can be annoying when “windshear has been reported on final” appears on the ATIS all day when clearly it is no longer plausible, but I guess they’re just covering their backs.
There is also a good section there on the definition of Turbulence , which I believe is often confused with windshear.
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Mike Rosewhich-
I suppose the point here is that no-one else is doing it, so it's not much to do with UK AIPs or any major bible, just call it Bristolism for now!
And anyway, for instance what about the fog warning, they are CATIII, so what's the big deal?
Sounds ALARMIST and very VERY RURAL!
Turn It Off-
Well yes maybe, but surely you don't need the WARNING bit at the end, since you have checked the weather and you know that strong winds may be dangerous etc......
I find it irritating and patronising, as they sound like they presume you have no idea what to expect.
I suppose the point here is that no-one else is doing it, so it's not much to do with UK AIPs or any major bible, just call it Bristolism for now!
And anyway, for instance what about the fog warning, they are CATIII, so what's the big deal?
Sounds ALARMIST and very VERY RURAL!
Turn It Off-
Well yes maybe, but surely you don't need the WARNING bit at the end, since you have checked the weather and you know that strong winds may be dangerous etc......
I find it irritating and patronising, as they sound like they presume you have no idea what to expect.
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I have come across such warnings as many airports and as was said previously, the Met Office issue them when appropriate.
Each AIP states when and to who they are issued.
However, they are in my experience issued to operators and handling agents etc because they are mainly of interest to aircraft parked on the ground. Aircraft in the air get TAF and METARS etc to give the appropriate actual and forecast weather.
Perhaps BRI are trying to save on distribution expenses by simply putting it on the ATIS. Do they also send paper copies to the local handling agent/flying club etc?
Regards,
DFC
Each AIP states when and to who they are issued.
However, they are in my experience issued to operators and handling agents etc because they are mainly of interest to aircraft parked on the ground. Aircraft in the air get TAF and METARS etc to give the appropriate actual and forecast weather.
Perhaps BRI are trying to save on distribution expenses by simply putting it on the ATIS. Do they also send paper copies to the local handling agent/flying club etc?
Regards,
DFC
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DFC - No, there's no money saving here, we send out the warnings by fax to the relevant agencies according to our distribution list, as soon as we receive them.
We then put it on the ATIS, after all it is there for the purpose of disseminating information. We are required to inform pilots of all relevant information pertaining to the airport including wx warnings which are issued by the met office. By putting this on the ATIS, pilots are informed of the warnings which are in force at the present time. Filling in all the blanks eg windspeed or depth of snow would only serve to elongate the ATIS transmission to such a point that you lot would accuse us of putting out messages which were too long to be dealing with on your undoubtedly very busy flight decks.
Mike Rosewhich - On the subject of Windshear/Turbulence, I've found at the three units I've worked at , that many pilots haven't got the first damn clue how to differentiate between the two.
Fool's Hole - other than your briefing before you depart to come to Bristol, where else do you receive your met info from? Since the conditions are constantly changing up on the hill, during that little hour it takes you to get from Glasgow or Edinburgh or wherever you're coming from, we could be reporting something completely different than you were expecting. Now, since the CAA has a little bee in their bonnets about keeping the poor ickle lambs in the flying smartie tubes informed of the constantly changing met conditions, then that is what we must do. Now, I'm sure that the BIA management would be only too glad to save money rather than having to buy and maintain expensive ATIS equipment, but then that would mean us ATCO's would have to read out the wx to every Tom, Dick and Fool's Hole who came on frequency, and you would be up in arms that you couldn't get a word in edgeways and how bad the service was at BRS and how the ATCO didn't give you traffic info or avoiding action against that one that just missed you cos he was busy giving out the wx on the R/T to the horrible Ezy/Brt/Bee etc who was number 4 in the sequence.
As for being CATIII, not every a/c or pilot using BRS can land in CATIII conditions, so that warning lets those particular pilots know that they may have to hold or divert. Don't be so hard on those so obviously less fortunate than yourselves. Oh yes, and 09 isn't CATIII so if there's a strong 09 wind,It'll make no difference whether you can fly CATIII or not. Incidentally, I seem to remember in my days at Belfast City that one of the airlines did not let many FO's land or depart with a tailwind of even 1 knot. Thereby increasing the buggeration factor for us as we then had to play "runway roulette" in order to accomodate everyone. So it's not just ATC that has it's odd little rules!
Look guys, as I said on another "Let's all attack the ATC team at BRS" thread the other day, we can only work with what we're given. We work within a set of rules laid down by the CAA and refined by our local unit instructions. If you don't like that answer, then you have two options:-
1 - You can make a written complaint about it to the CAA either yourself or through your higher management.
2 - Bitch about it on Pprune and nothing will get done save for annoying the ATC team at BRS.
There really is nothing worse that pilots who whine but aren't prepared to put pen to paper to express their concerns to the proper authority.
Clear as mud? Good.
We then put it on the ATIS, after all it is there for the purpose of disseminating information. We are required to inform pilots of all relevant information pertaining to the airport including wx warnings which are issued by the met office. By putting this on the ATIS, pilots are informed of the warnings which are in force at the present time. Filling in all the blanks eg windspeed or depth of snow would only serve to elongate the ATIS transmission to such a point that you lot would accuse us of putting out messages which were too long to be dealing with on your undoubtedly very busy
flight decks.Mike Rosewhich - On the subject of Windshear/Turbulence, I've found at the three units I've worked at , that many pilots haven't got the first damn clue how to differentiate between the two.
Fool's Hole - other than your briefing before you depart to come to Bristol, where else do you receive your met info from? Since the conditions are constantly changing up on the hill, during that little hour it takes you to get from Glasgow or Edinburgh or wherever you're coming from, we could be reporting something completely different than you were expecting. Now, since the CAA has a little bee in their bonnets about keeping the poor ickle lambs in the flying smartie tubes informed of the constantly changing met conditions, then that is what we must do. Now, I'm sure that the BIA management would be only too glad to save money rather than having to buy and maintain expensive ATIS equipment, but then that would mean us ATCO's would have to read out the wx to every Tom, Dick and Fool's Hole who came on frequency, and you would be up in arms that you couldn't get a word in edgeways and how bad the service was at BRS and how the ATCO didn't give you traffic info or avoiding action against that one that just missed you cos he was busy giving out the wx on the R/T to the horrible Ezy/Brt/Bee etc who was number 4 in the sequence.
As for being CATIII, not every a/c or pilot using BRS can land in CATIII conditions, so that warning lets those particular pilots know that they may have to hold or divert. Don't be so hard on those so obviously less fortunate than yourselves. Oh yes, and 09 isn't CATIII so if there's a strong 09 wind,It'll make no difference whether you can fly CATIII or not. Incidentally, I seem to remember in my days at Belfast City that one of the airlines did not let many FO's land or depart with a tailwind of even 1 knot. Thereby increasing the buggeration factor for us as we then had to play "runway roulette" in order to accomodate everyone. So it's not just ATC that has it's odd little rules!
Look guys, as I said on another "Let's all attack the ATC team at BRS" thread the other day, we can only work with what we're given. We work within a set of rules laid down by the CAA and refined by our local unit instructions. If you don't like that answer, then you have two options:-
1 - You can make a written complaint about it to the CAA either yourself or through your higher management.
2 - Bitch about it on Pprune and nothing will get done save for annoying the ATC team at BRS.
There really is nothing worse that pilots who whine but aren't prepared to put pen to paper to express their concerns to the proper authority.
Clear as mud? Good.
Last edited by Standard Noise; 28th Jan 2005 at 13:55.
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F-H: Don't want to retread too much of Standard Noise's (and others) witty reply but:
1. UK AIP GEN3-5-3 Para 4 "Aerodrome Warnings" and CAP493/MATS Part 1, Section 3, Ch1 Page 9 refers. We think we do it right but we'll look at what we do and see if there are changes to be made. Why does Muir Matheson's PAMOS ATIS input page have a "Met Warnings" section on it if it's not to be used, I wonder?
2. We have no desire to be patronising or irritating by putting MET warnings on the ATIS, I assure you. We do not intend to deter you from landing at Bristol or wish to be alarmist. If you divert, it costs us plenty in money, work and the goodwill of passengers and operators. We transmit the information and it is for you to make an informed decision on the effect of that information, along with all other available data. We also disseminate Warnings by phone call to various folk around the airport.
3. Not all pilots have an Ops Dept, Handling Agent and Engineering Department who make sure you have briefing data, Wx. charts, NOTAMs, Load Sheets, aeroplane suitably de-iced/anti iced, warm and cosy for you to step into and fly away. There are pilots who actually make use of the Warnings, we're told, such as the guy who needs to tie-down his Cessna overnight, when he hears the Gale Warning: the guy who needs to get up an hour early to make sure the engineers (or he) has deiced his aircraft properly, after hearing a Frost Warning. Or just the commercial pilot who hears a Bristol Fog Warning going out on the ATIS as he starts up for departure and wonders if he's going to get home on time after the return sector. High speed fog at Bristol is not uncommon.
4. We have Cat 3 ILS on RW27, Cat 1 on 09. Not all operators are Cat-3 capable here either, by any means.
5. There is a "big picture" that ATC are trained to recognise in this game. Sadly, I conclude, after 30 years of being an ATCO, that many pilots have tunnel-vision and are interested solely in their aircraft, their flight, at that time. A little harsh? Maybe...maybe not.
Brain-Fade. That location "Planet Claire" could be a give-away, 'cos we think we know that name well... Souls-on board is useful in the event of a "whoopsie" (your words), as I know only too well. I was on duty in the 'Gulf a couple of hours after a B727 crashed on the airport after going-round twice in a thunderstorm and getting zapped by a microburst on the third go-round. Not pretty, many dead, some survivors walked out of it and were still being rounded up hours later, in total shock. ATC having S-o-B may have saved a few minutes work and have been of use to the RFFS, when the Handling Agents were asked for an accurate manifest.
Do we expect pilots "to have a whoopsie" (your words again)? 'Sure do at some time, and that's why we are taught never to be complacent. You too, B-F? 'Been flying long? Incidentally, the use of the RFFS for Weather Standbys or in LVPs cannot be just a Bristol-ism, surely?
Last thing- We're not a "funny" or "rural" airport or ATSU. We take this job very, very seriously indeed. If you have a gripe, then go through the right channels to make your views known or come and see me anytime. Second floor of the Tower, turn left out of the lift...
1. UK AIP GEN3-5-3 Para 4 "Aerodrome Warnings" and CAP493/MATS Part 1, Section 3, Ch1 Page 9 refers. We think we do it right but we'll look at what we do and see if there are changes to be made. Why does Muir Matheson's PAMOS ATIS input page have a "Met Warnings" section on it if it's not to be used, I wonder?
2. We have no desire to be patronising or irritating by putting MET warnings on the ATIS, I assure you. We do not intend to deter you from landing at Bristol or wish to be alarmist. If you divert, it costs us plenty in money, work and the goodwill of passengers and operators. We transmit the information and it is for you to make an informed decision on the effect of that information, along with all other available data. We also disseminate Warnings by phone call to various folk around the airport.
3. Not all pilots have an Ops Dept, Handling Agent and Engineering Department who make sure you have briefing data, Wx. charts, NOTAMs, Load Sheets, aeroplane suitably de-iced/anti iced, warm and cosy for you to step into and fly away. There are pilots who actually make use of the Warnings, we're told, such as the guy who needs to tie-down his Cessna overnight, when he hears the Gale Warning: the guy who needs to get up an hour early to make sure the engineers (or he) has deiced his aircraft properly, after hearing a Frost Warning. Or just the commercial pilot who hears a Bristol Fog Warning going out on the ATIS as he starts up for departure and wonders if he's going to get home on time after the return sector. High speed fog at Bristol is not uncommon.
4. We have Cat 3 ILS on RW27, Cat 1 on 09. Not all operators are Cat-3 capable here either, by any means.
5. There is a "big picture" that ATC are trained to recognise in this game. Sadly, I conclude, after 30 years of being an ATCO, that many pilots have tunnel-vision and are interested solely in their aircraft, their flight, at that time. A little harsh? Maybe...maybe not.
Brain-Fade. That location "Planet Claire" could be a give-away, 'cos we think we know that name well... Souls-on board is useful in the event of a "whoopsie" (your words), as I know only too well. I was on duty in the 'Gulf a couple of hours after a B727 crashed on the airport after going-round twice in a thunderstorm and getting zapped by a microburst on the third go-round. Not pretty, many dead, some survivors walked out of it and were still being rounded up hours later, in total shock. ATC having S-o-B may have saved a few minutes work and have been of use to the RFFS, when the Handling Agents were asked for an accurate manifest.
Do we expect pilots "to have a whoopsie" (your words again)? 'Sure do at some time, and that's why we are taught never to be complacent. You too, B-F? 'Been flying long? Incidentally, the use of the RFFS for Weather Standbys or in LVPs cannot be just a Bristol-ism, surely?
Last thing- We're not a "funny" or "rural" airport or ATSU. We take this job very, very seriously indeed. If you have a gripe, then go through the right channels to make your views known or come and see me anytime. Second floor of the Tower, turn left out of the lift...
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Standard Noise,
We get the weather enroute via Volmet, ATIS and through various agencies the latest TAF may be obtained if one is issued after we departed. These days, ACARS or the telephone can be used! I am sure of what the weather will be for arrival and departure before initial descent even on short sectors.
The ground crew are not required to brief themselves on the actual and forecast weather proir to their shift or to be able to decode METAR and TAFs and the person who is the operator of an aircraft parked at the airport may be out of range of the ATIS, volmet etc. They are the people interested in frost warnings etc because that is the only way that they are given the information that they require.
The aerodrome operator is intersted in such warnings because they have to considder runway braking action checks perhaps in frost etc.
ATC engineers are intersted in wind and icing warnings because there is a wind limit which may require the radar to be parked and that speed is different when the radar is iced.
ATC engineers in general do not need to be able to decode the TAF but they do need the information. These are the types of people who need the aerodrome warning. Pilots are trained to recognise the symptoms and decode the metoffice data and predict the conditions.
So what I believe is being "complained" about is the duplication of information provided to pilots resulting in what pilots may perceive as an unnecessary extended ATIS message. That is how I interpreted this topic.
Regards,
DFC
We get the weather enroute via Volmet, ATIS and through various agencies the latest TAF may be obtained if one is issued after we departed. These days, ACARS or the telephone can be used! I am sure of what the weather will be for arrival and departure before initial descent even on short sectors.
The ground crew are not required to brief themselves on the actual and forecast weather proir to their shift or to be able to decode METAR and TAFs and the person who is the operator of an aircraft parked at the airport may be out of range of the ATIS, volmet etc. They are the people interested in frost warnings etc because that is the only way that they are given the information that they require.
The aerodrome operator is intersted in such warnings because they have to considder runway braking action checks perhaps in frost etc.
ATC engineers are intersted in wind and icing warnings because there is a wind limit which may require the radar to be parked and that speed is different when the radar is iced.
ATC engineers in general do not need to be able to decode the TAF but they do need the information. These are the types of people who need the aerodrome warning. Pilots are trained to recognise the symptoms and decode the metoffice data and predict the conditions.
So what I believe is being "complained" about is the duplication of information provided to pilots resulting in what pilots may perceive as an unnecessary extended ATIS message. That is how I interpreted this topic.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC,
It seems that you have an absolutely identical understanding to mine on this "issue".
I appreciate the explanations and replies of Standard Noise and ATCOJ30.
However, as Brain Fade has asked above - the point of this thread is WHY ONLY AT BRS. If this was an issue as important as it is 'perceived' to be by the BRS ATCOs then surely it would be everywhere else too. Let's face it BRS is not the most extreme airport in Europe we all operate in/out of. None of the more "critical" airports have this warning on their ATISes.
Other airports have private pilots and small planes.
By posting the subject here I was hoping to find out the reason behind the difference between BRS and the rest of Europe/UK - The World.
At this stage though I still don't see what that difference is.
It's not a problem, we live with these messages and it doesn't cause the slightest of problems to us, only it may add a curious dimension to the BRS scene, by making us raise an eyebrow every time we hear the current warning that is 'current!'
It's a question of image I guesss.
And yes it still adds that "rural" flavour to the end of the message IMHO.
It seems that you have an absolutely identical understanding to mine on this "issue".
I appreciate the explanations and replies of Standard Noise and ATCOJ30.
However, as Brain Fade has asked above - the point of this thread is WHY ONLY AT BRS. If this was an issue as important as it is 'perceived' to be by the BRS ATCOs then surely it would be everywhere else too. Let's face it BRS is not the most extreme airport in Europe we all operate in/out of. None of the more "critical" airports have this warning on their ATISes.
Other airports have private pilots and small planes.
By posting the subject here I was hoping to find out the reason behind the difference between BRS and the rest of Europe/UK - The World.
At this stage though I still don't see what that difference is.
It's not a problem, we live with these messages and it doesn't cause the slightest of problems to us, only it may add a curious dimension to the BRS scene, by making us raise an eyebrow every time we hear the current warning that is 'current!'
It's a question of image I guesss.
And yes it still adds that "rural" flavour to the end of the message IMHO.
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I can't give a definitive answer to Fool's basic question but I will re-iterate the point made by others that not all pilots are blessed with his foresight and the ATIS is there for the benefit of all pilots.
The original e-mail asked what was the point of the warning. Presumably, if you learn from the ATIS that there is a met warning in force and you don't know about it, then you are prompted to go and find out about the detail. Why do this? Possibly only the person who made the decision will know.
But in these days of Safety Management Systems you'd better get used to "rural" oddities. Under an SMS, which all ATC units now have to have, if there is an incident and it could have been prevented by putting a message on the ATIS that a met warning was current, then that message will probably have to be included. Anyone who makes the decision to remove the warning risks being the cause of another incident.
Molly-coddling? Maybe. But it's the way that ATC now has to work.
Perhaps BRS was just ahead of the game.
The original e-mail asked what was the point of the warning. Presumably, if you learn from the ATIS that there is a met warning in force and you don't know about it, then you are prompted to go and find out about the detail. Why do this? Possibly only the person who made the decision will know.
But in these days of Safety Management Systems you'd better get used to "rural" oddities. Under an SMS, which all ATC units now have to have, if there is an incident and it could have been prevented by putting a message on the ATIS that a met warning was current, then that message will probably have to be included. Anyone who makes the decision to remove the warning risks being the cause of another incident.
Molly-coddling? Maybe. But it's the way that ATC now has to work.
Perhaps BRS was just ahead of the game.
It is a fact that a number of regional airports, mainly - or, in the past, exclusively - staffed by "home grown" people develop some strange habits, but I am surprised that the originator of this thread has never heard of Meteorological Warnings. That said, it does, at first sight, seem a little unnecessary that reference is made to them on the ATIS, the function of which is to present immediately pertinent information, though I take Spitoon's point.
However - and this applies to a number of threads started on pprune - instead of agitating on a public forum, which results in a lot of "duff gen", why not write - yes, write - and in a slightly more formal, restrained manner to the Manager, ATS and get a response from the horse's mouth. Communication by e-mail is a little less than impressive if the topic requires a serious and formal response and if it was addressed to ATC generally, it might well have found its way to File 13! I think you will find MATS Bristol to be extremely competent, knowledgeable and enthusiastic that the unit should provide the best possible service.
However - and this applies to a number of threads started on pprune - instead of agitating on a public forum, which results in a lot of "duff gen", why not write - yes, write - and in a slightly more formal, restrained manner to the Manager, ATS and get a response from the horse's mouth. Communication by e-mail is a little less than impressive if the topic requires a serious and formal response and if it was addressed to ATC generally, it might well have found its way to File 13! I think you will find MATS Bristol to be extremely competent, knowledgeable and enthusiastic that the unit should provide the best possible service.
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2 sheds - I agree, if the pilot community want to know answers to their questions, then all they have to do is write to our ATSM, he's only too happy to explain and take on board their concerns.
Sadly, many of them seem incapable of writing a letter although they seem very adept at typing here on pprune.
DFC - thank you for letting me know your other sources of info, but does that mean that we in ATC should not disseminate the info based on the fact that "ah to hell with it, they've had that info 4 or 5 times already, let's not bother to tell them"? The answer to that would be a resounding NO. Too often in the past, an incident has occurred and ATC has been asked what the wx was doing at the time and was the pilot aware of it. It would be very remiss of us not to make sure that the info was dissemiated. You might want to call it "back covering" but in this blame culture we all inhabit, ultimately, the powers that be and their lawyers don't care. Airlines would be the first to bleat if they thought their pilots had not been informed of the met situation.
As for the Aerodrome Operators (having worked at three units where ATC was "in house") and ATC engineers, I'm very well aware, as are all of us ATCO's, what they need to know met-wise.
But here's the thing, you don't have to listen to the whole "unnecessary extended ATIS message" if you don't want to. Nobody's spying on you.
Fool's Hole - Turning your last post on it's head with regards to 'WHY ONLY AT BRS?' I have two questions for you 'why not everywhere else?' Who's to say we at BRS are wrong here?
BTW, a "rural" flavour. Why, because we are in the SW of the UK? Or have I read too much into that remark?
Brain Fade - It's not only us at BRS that get gale/frost/fog warnings. The Met Office send them out to all airports, it's part of the deal. Maybe we are just more conscientious in disseminating them to other agencies than some other airports, chiefly for the reasons I spelt out to DFC.
One final point while I'm on a roll, last weekend, we had a snow/frost warning come through around tea time. When the early evening flights were going out, I gave each of them (at least those who would be returning after 2200) a 'heads up' on the warning by explaining briefly the main points (3cm snow expected/frost forming on surfaces/ temp drop to -2 by midnight). Why did I do it if I am not required to? Well, I thought it was possible the pilots may have missed the warnings due to timing and thought that prior knowledge may have been handy. Each pilot thanked me for the details and everyone was happy. Not one even said 'yeah, we saw that.' So how was I to know they already knew about it? And does it make me wrong for doing so? We in ATC have a 'duty of care' towards our customers, so is it really that bad if we disseminate all the information that we have to hand, especially if we don't know that the pilots have it?
Sadly, many of them seem incapable of writing a letter although they seem very adept at typing here on pprune.
DFC - thank you for letting me know your other sources of info, but does that mean that we in ATC should not disseminate the info based on the fact that "ah to hell with it, they've had that info 4 or 5 times already, let's not bother to tell them"? The answer to that would be a resounding NO. Too often in the past, an incident has occurred and ATC has been asked what the wx was doing at the time and was the pilot aware of it. It would be very remiss of us not to make sure that the info was dissemiated. You might want to call it "back covering" but in this blame culture we all inhabit, ultimately, the powers that be and their lawyers don't care. Airlines would be the first to bleat if they thought their pilots had not been informed of the met situation.
As for the Aerodrome Operators (having worked at three units where ATC was "in house") and ATC engineers, I'm very well aware, as are all of us ATCO's, what they need to know met-wise.
But here's the thing, you don't have to listen to the whole "unnecessary extended ATIS message" if you don't want to. Nobody's spying on you.
Fool's Hole - Turning your last post on it's head with regards to 'WHY ONLY AT BRS?' I have two questions for you 'why not everywhere else?' Who's to say we at BRS are wrong here?
BTW, a "rural" flavour. Why, because we are in the SW of the UK? Or have I read too much into that remark?
Brain Fade - It's not only us at BRS that get gale/frost/fog warnings. The Met Office send them out to all airports, it's part of the deal. Maybe we are just more conscientious in disseminating them to other agencies than some other airports, chiefly for the reasons I spelt out to DFC.
One final point while I'm on a roll, last weekend, we had a snow/frost warning come through around tea time. When the early evening flights were going out, I gave each of them (at least those who would be returning after 2200) a 'heads up' on the warning by explaining briefly the main points (3cm snow expected/frost forming on surfaces/ temp drop to -2 by midnight). Why did I do it if I am not required to? Well, I thought it was possible the pilots may have missed the warnings due to timing and thought that prior knowledge may have been handy. Each pilot thanked me for the details and everyone was happy. Not one even said 'yeah, we saw that.' So how was I to know they already knew about it? And does it make me wrong for doing so? We in ATC have a 'duty of care' towards our customers, so is it really that bad if we disseminate all the information that we have to hand, especially if we don't know that the pilots have it?
Forewarned is Forearmed
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The CAA issued a NOTAL (Notice to Aerodrome Licence Holders) in early 1998 which may go some way into explaining why BRS issues some of these warnings.
Go to www.caa.co.uk then search for NOTAL 1/98 open the full file
Go to www.caa.co.uk then search for NOTAL 1/98 open the full file
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Standard Noise,
Yes we are being "spied upon" because firstly we write down the ATIS onto the plog and the paperwork is retained after flight and sampled by the ops staff........all standard stuff. But more importantly, we have a cockpit voice recorder and if we don't check the full ATIS and have an incident, that omission will be highlighted in the subsequent investigation.
It seems that you put statements like "Frost Warning Current", "Fog Warning Current" and "Wind Warning Current" on ther ATIS.
My question is if the full content of the warning is not transmitted on the ATIS, how many flights request the full content of the warning on R/T?
Regards,
DFC
Yes we are being "spied upon" because firstly we write down the ATIS onto the plog and the paperwork is retained after flight and sampled by the ops staff........all standard stuff. But more importantly, we have a cockpit voice recorder and if we don't check the full ATIS and have an incident, that omission will be highlighted in the subsequent investigation.
It seems that you put statements like "Frost Warning Current", "Fog Warning Current" and "Wind Warning Current" on ther ATIS.
My question is if the full content of the warning is not transmitted on the ATIS, how many flights request the full content of the warning on R/T?
Regards,
DFC