BRI - This & That WARNING
StandupfortheUlstermen
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DFC - Conversely, if we do not transmit any 'relevant' information and there was to be an incident, some bright but non operational spark in a legal dept somewhere might try to insinuate that ATC was negligent in not disseminating the information in the first place and that the reliance on the idea that the pilot has probably had the information from another source could be classed as negligent.
Whether a pilot asks for further info is up to them. If I'm asked for the details, I will give them but as I said before, to put out the full details of a warning on the ATIS would only lead to your colleagues moaning about the ATIS message being excessively long.
As for how many flights ask for the full details, the answer is that I just don't know. I'm not in the seat 24/7 and since we don't record such requests, there is no available data.
Whether a pilot asks for further info is up to them. If I'm asked for the details, I will give them but as I said before, to put out the full details of a warning on the ATIS would only lead to your colleagues moaning about the ATIS message being excessively long.
As for how many flights ask for the full details, the answer is that I just don't know. I'm not in the seat 24/7 and since we don't record such requests, there is no available data.
Actually, ATC does not even have to claim the current popular bleat of "duty of care". All ATC units are required to provide a Flight Information Service - some of us would all do well to remind ourselves of the definition.
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Can't really add anything to the excellent replies of Standard Noise or ATCOJ30 but surely any information is better than no information?
If I was departing Bristol for some far flung destination then I think I would be grateful to have heard of a met warning on the ATIS advising me of some or other unclement weather that I might expect on my return. At least then I can prepare for all eventualities. Quite surprised that some pilots have not heard of met warnings anyway, surely there might be some holes in training/education that need to be addressed?
If I was departing Bristol for some far flung destination then I think I would be grateful to have heard of a met warning on the ATIS advising me of some or other unclement weather that I might expect on my return. At least then I can prepare for all eventualities. Quite surprised that some pilots have not heard of met warnings anyway, surely there might be some holes in training/education that need to be addressed?
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2 sheds:
FYI, I have actually emailed BRS ATC, via the BRS Airport website.
As there was no direct link, I was forced to email to one of the addresses therein for comment, whom which I have asked specifically to forward it on to ATC!!!
There was no reply to my email and that's why I thought I'd put it on the appropriate place on PPRUNE, days and days later.
I completely disagree with you that emails are not "impressive enough" as I do the majority of my communications by email.
What's there to be impressed over an email?
This is 2005 after all.
With regard to: "agitating on a public forum" what do you think PPRUNE is for?
It's a much better vehicle than any letter or email, as the replies can come from lots of different, well informed people, as opposed to just one person.
Spitoon,
BRS ahead? You may be right, I haven't thought like that, I must admit.
Cheers - FH
However - and this applies to a number of threads started on pprune - instead of agitating on a public forum, which results in a lot of "duff gen", why not write - yes, write - and in a slightly more formal, restrained manner to the Manager, ATS and get a response from the horse's mouth. Communication by e-mail is a little less than impressive
As there was no direct link, I was forced to email to one of the addresses therein for comment, whom which I have asked specifically to forward it on to ATC!!!
There was no reply to my email and that's why I thought I'd put it on the appropriate place on PPRUNE, days and days later.
I completely disagree with you that emails are not "impressive enough" as I do the majority of my communications by email.
What's there to be impressed over an email?
This is 2005 after all.
With regard to: "agitating on a public forum" what do you think PPRUNE is for?
It's a much better vehicle than any letter or email, as the replies can come from lots of different, well informed people, as opposed to just one person.
Spitoon,
BRS ahead? You may be right, I haven't thought like that, I must admit.
Cheers - FH
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Floating Harbour
The thing is you should already have those warnings in your Met briefing notes - How do the ATS get them in the first place. Sometimes these warnings can take one pilot from the Active frequency for a long period of time whilst waiting for the ATIS weather. Only once you have this do you know what type of approach if any you can do.
Last night (In darkness) the warning was intense bird activity, surely not valid at the time I was listening to the ATIS.
What next 'Caution Mad Hungarian on approach to Cardiff'?
The thing is you should already have those warnings in your Met briefing notes - How do the ATS get them in the first place. Sometimes these warnings can take one pilot from the Active frequency for a long period of time whilst waiting for the ATIS weather. Only once you have this do you know what type of approach if any you can do.
Last night (In darkness) the warning was intense bird activity, surely not valid at the time I was listening to the ATIS.
What next 'Caution Mad Hungarian on approach to Cardiff'?
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10:15am 15 Feb - FROST WARNING given on Atis.
Actual temperature was 3 deg, forecast for the day, around 8-10 deg.
Clear skies, sun's out, yet FROST WARNING CURRENT.
Why, why, why oh why????????????
Actual temperature was 3 deg, forecast for the day, around 8-10 deg.
Clear skies, sun's out, yet FROST WARNING CURRENT.
Why, why, why oh why????????????
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Errrr..........I did have to scrape the car windscreen this morning but it was clear and sunny at BRS this morning about 10.15.
Generally a good service from these guys/girls, so why don't you let them have their warnings? Apart from the odd time when you are busy and want to know what/if any approach you can fly, this does no harm.
If you really want to complain let's talk about crewing. Anyway you've only done half a day's work if you're already on here! I know so have I.
Generally a good service from these guys/girls, so why don't you let them have their warnings? Apart from the odd time when you are busy and want to know what/if any approach you can fly, this does no harm.
If you really want to complain let's talk about crewing. Anyway you've only done half a day's work if you're already on here! I know so have I.
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OK then, this morning 09:15 BRS ATis 3 degrees, sunny like hell, but NO FROST WARNING.
Now come on BRS do explain this one please, as I am getting drawn into this as well now.
I am slightly confused without the warning.
Now come on BRS do explain this one please, as I am getting drawn into this as well now.
I am slightly confused without the warning.
Reminds me a bit of when I first started airline flying and we operating to an airport in India. In the middle of the NOTAMs it said "Pilots to ECL" - the Captain asked me if I knew what this meant. When I replied in the negative he said "It means pilots to exercise caution on landing".
Then, he added "Dont we do that always?!"
Then, he added "Dont we do that always?!"
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OK. Admittedly I’m coming to this late and from the other side of the pond, but I’m not especially liking what I’m seeing… You’re complaining because there’s too much info on the ATIS? If I’ve read this correctly, these guys are publishing the info on the ATIS because it has been provided to them and they believe they are obligated to make it available. So, there’s a bird warning after dark or a frost warning when you see no frost? Odds are that there are people in at the ATC facility making that same observation and wondering why the warning was posted. However, if they believe they are obligated to pass that info on, they pass it on. That’s what we PREFER to see as the default setting on this type of issue, right?
If you think the guys in this unit are stupid, then just say so and we can move on from there (is that what the “rural” comment was about?). And if you actually believe that there is no requirement for the info to be on the ATIS (or that putting it on the ATIS is prohibited), start contacting people on the way up the food chain and get it changed. However, the way this thread is being prosecuted can only serve to remove from some controllers who really seem to give a damn, the motivation to go above and beyond. I don’t see the point.
If you think the guys in this unit are stupid, then just say so and we can move on from there (is that what the “rural” comment was about?). And if you actually believe that there is no requirement for the info to be on the ATIS (or that putting it on the ATIS is prohibited), start contacting people on the way up the food chain and get it changed. However, the way this thread is being prosecuted can only serve to remove from some controllers who really seem to give a damn, the motivation to go above and beyond. I don’t see the point.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Christ on a bike, I thought we'd cleared this one up a fortnight ago.
We only take the warnings off the ATIS when the period of validity runs out. Warnings are issued by the Met Office and unless they send out a message to cancel the warning, we leave it on until it is no longer valid.
Now for goodness sake, leave us to do our job and get on with flying your tin tubes! You don't see me criticising the way you fly, the fact that you seem unable to put the plane down on the TDZ makings rather than halfway along the runway, or when you block our frequency cos you haven't had the wit to press the right button before launching into your tiresome "Hi my name's Nigel Personality-Bypass and I'm your captain for today..." spiel.
We put the warnings out for your benefit. Get over it and move on!
We only take the warnings off the ATIS when the period of validity runs out. Warnings are issued by the Met Office and unless they send out a message to cancel the warning, we leave it on until it is no longer valid.
Now for goodness sake, leave us to do our job and get on with flying your tin tubes! You don't see me criticising the way you fly, the fact that you seem unable to put the plane down on the TDZ makings rather than halfway along the runway, or when you block our frequency cos you haven't had the wit to press the right button before launching into your tiresome "Hi my name's Nigel Personality-Bypass and I'm your captain for today..." spiel.
We put the warnings out for your benefit. Get over it and move on!
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What about the when the Vis was more like 1200metres, and it was misty and pilots were leaving wondering what the weather was going to be like on the way back?
Fog warning current then vis is likely to drop below 1000m.
Fog warning current then vis is likely to drop below 1000m.
Last edited by Turn It Off; 18th Feb 2005 at 07:48.
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av8boy,
Give me bird warnings at any time please. Not just when it is dark!
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Turn It Off,
As a pilot, the "fog warning is useless" to me. As a flight preparation issue, it ranks equal with the radio weather reports on the local music station - nice but not enough to be useful.
Before flight I will have received the appropriate TAFs and they will tell me what the forecast visibility is expected to be. If the forecast is for less than 1000m then I know the met office will issue a fog warning for people who don't read the TAFs - that does not include pilots who pre-flight properly.
Fog Warning - so what. Is is going to be 999m visibility or 20m visibility.
I want to know is it going to be fog enough for a visual approach (+800m) or for CAT1 or will it be LVPs and so on. Since all of those require RVR readings perhaps you get the idea.
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Moist,
If there was a hard frost how long do you think it would take for the frost to melt from surface areas and aircraft in the shade if the OAT is only reaching +3? Remember that with an air temperature of +3, the ground temperature can be far less and with some windchill in the shade forget about the ice melting quickly.
Regards,
DFC
Give me bird warnings at any time please. Not just when it is dark!
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Turn It Off,
As a pilot, the "fog warning is useless" to me. As a flight preparation issue, it ranks equal with the radio weather reports on the local music station - nice but not enough to be useful.
Before flight I will have received the appropriate TAFs and they will tell me what the forecast visibility is expected to be. If the forecast is for less than 1000m then I know the met office will issue a fog warning for people who don't read the TAFs - that does not include pilots who pre-flight properly.
Fog Warning - so what. Is is going to be 999m visibility or 20m visibility.
I want to know is it going to be fog enough for a visual approach (+800m) or for CAT1 or will it be LVPs and so on. Since all of those require RVR readings perhaps you get the idea.
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Moist,
If there was a hard frost how long do you think it would take for the frost to melt from surface areas and aircraft in the shade if the OAT is only reaching +3? Remember that with an air temperature of +3, the ground temperature can be far less and with some windchill in the shade forget about the ice melting quickly.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC,
The point I think of the thread is not the specific items that we all know and work with daily, but the dissimilarities between one ATC unit and all the others.
I personally don't care about these warnings, they don't bother me, but just curious enough why only BRS have adopted it, which is what I think the original thread starter meant when he/she started it in the first place.
If there was a hard frost how long do you think it would take for the frost to melt from surface areas and aircraft in the shade if the OAT is only reaching +3? Remember that with an air temperature of +3, the ground temperature can be far less and with some windchill in the shade forget about the ice melting quickly.
I personally don't care about these warnings, they don't bother me, but just curious enough why only BRS have adopted it, which is what I think the original thread starter meant when he/she started it in the first place.