Student Pay!
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I wasn't assesssing you but your comments....in view of which I would have thought that you could understand where I'm coming from.In the same way I didn't know of your personal situation,you know nothing about mine.Maybe I was being presumptious but you were as well.At the end of the day there was no need to call me a "whinger" for stating a few facts.Sorry if I offended you but in the last 2 days I've found out my training course has been put back again meaning I have no job for 2 months and my starting salary will not cover my major financial outgoings...this was the only point I was trying to make.Do you think that this acceptable practice by the HR dept of a major company?
777
777
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CM,
to start I owe you an apology - there was no need for me to be an arse. Sorry!
However, I do object to you (and all the other ATCOs) patronising me and 777 a little. Why should I be happy with a 20% pay cut on what I was expecting? People 3 months ahead of me, doing the same course will earn 5k more than me. How fair is that? I'm not an urchin straight out of uni. I'm 28 very experienced and very good at what I do (no i'm not a lap dancer!) .. However, I'm not challeneged by it. Becoming an ATCO isn't a dream for me. It's a considered move into aviation, in order to give me a chance of a career I may enjoy. Money is still a big factor for me.
And as for knowing who is sat behind me.. well I have a parent who worked as an ATCO/SRG, so I know Exactly who may be sitting behind me!
So I won't back down from my whingeing. I feel very just in my whinge - and I may well reject my kind offer from NATS!
No reason to mouth of at you tho' chilli, so sorry again!
to start I owe you an apology - there was no need for me to be an arse. Sorry!
However, I do object to you (and all the other ATCOs) patronising me and 777 a little. Why should I be happy with a 20% pay cut on what I was expecting? People 3 months ahead of me, doing the same course will earn 5k more than me. How fair is that? I'm not an urchin straight out of uni. I'm 28 very experienced and very good at what I do (no i'm not a lap dancer!) .. However, I'm not challeneged by it. Becoming an ATCO isn't a dream for me. It's a considered move into aviation, in order to give me a chance of a career I may enjoy. Money is still a big factor for me.
And as for knowing who is sat behind me.. well I have a parent who worked as an ATCO/SRG, so I know Exactly who may be sitting behind me!
So I won't back down from my whingeing. I feel very just in my whinge - and I may well reject my kind offer from NATS!
No reason to mouth of at you tho' chilli, so sorry again!
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Gonzo, Jerricho et al,
Aren't the figures quoted pretty much what we started on?? Didn't see many complaints there huh??
I accept that you guys are being held up in starting, but as Gonzo said, until you sign the scrap of paper, you're nothing to NATS and they pull the strings and can do what they like, including "drop" your wages
Aren't the figures quoted pretty much what we started on?? Didn't see many complaints there huh??
I accept that you guys are being held up in starting, but as Gonzo said, until you sign the scrap of paper, you're nothing to NATS and they pull the strings and can do what they like, including "drop" your wages
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Cally,
Yep, that's what I was thinking
Aye, when I were a lad...........
So when are you going to change your location to that dismal industrial town where it always rains?
Yep, that's what I was thinking
Aye, when I were a lad...........
So when are you going to change your location to that dismal industrial town where it always rains?
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I'm repeating myself from another thread here, but I feel this needs to be pointed out to some.
There are those of us about who haven't been with NATS as long as others, and can remember what it was like to go through the interview process. These "sacrifices" one or two here are bestowing on themselves as if they were the only one's ever to experience it. Guys of my less experienced "vintage" (Gonzo and I were on the same course) as Cally points out, were on different conditions to those in the college now...........so your argument Kirstey doesn't hold much there. We're not being patronising, just stating facts. Until you have that signed piece of paper in your hand, sorry. And if you're serious about being an ATCO for NATS (your lovely little comment about "rejecting the kind offer" kind of proves this), then you wouldn't be bitching and moaning about it on an internet forum, would you.
Yeah the whole process can be a little frustrating, but if it's what you want, all the best!!!
There are those of us about who haven't been with NATS as long as others, and can remember what it was like to go through the interview process. These "sacrifices" one or two here are bestowing on themselves as if they were the only one's ever to experience it. Guys of my less experienced "vintage" (Gonzo and I were on the same course) as Cally points out, were on different conditions to those in the college now...........so your argument Kirstey doesn't hold much there. We're not being patronising, just stating facts. Until you have that signed piece of paper in your hand, sorry. And if you're serious about being an ATCO for NATS (your lovely little comment about "rejecting the kind offer" kind of proves this), then you wouldn't be bitching and moaning about it on an internet forum, would you.
Yeah the whole process can be a little frustrating, but if it's what you want, all the best!!!
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When I did my training...
...we were lucky if we got a lump of coal....and the Department of Aviation wanted to sell us all for scientific experiments...
You lot can have Mr777 - is this is the sort of attitude your HR selection panel is recruiting good luck
You lot can have Mr777 - is this is the sort of attitude your HR selection panel is recruiting good luck
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First of all, huge respect to anybody that has funded the training themselves. That takes huge Balls.
Kirstey, I do sympathise with you about pay being dropped etc. I won't say a word about your earlier comments. Everybody else has.
It might be worth finding out if you still get the accomodation allowance and the Council tax dispensation.
Every little will help.
But at the end of the day, if the pay is only £14k, and you do make it through the training. You could be like alot of us that can actually say they enjoy going to work.
How many of your mates can say that? It really is a good career.
ps. Good luck CATC. Looks like you have some future live ones here!
Kirstey, I do sympathise with you about pay being dropped etc. I won't say a word about your earlier comments. Everybody else has.
It might be worth finding out if you still get the accomodation allowance and the Council tax dispensation.
Every little will help.
But at the end of the day, if the pay is only £14k, and you do make it through the training. You could be like alot of us that can actually say they enjoy going to work.
How many of your mates can say that? It really is a good career.
ps. Good luck CATC. Looks like you have some future live ones here!
Last edited by Barnaby the Bear; 5th Feb 2004 at 22:53.
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The thrust of this thread has been lost in the furore over a couple of (inappropriate) comments. If you have a family, mortgage etc etc and you've based your decision to apply on an advertised rate of pay which then is slashed from 19k to 14k just before you commence training then i think that person has every right to feel aggrieved.
Maybe it's a recruitment ploy by HR to ensure no 'mature' candidates apply.
Maybe it's a recruitment ploy by HR to ensure no 'mature' candidates apply.
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mr.777:
Yup, and get used to it if you going to be a NATS employee, at least they start just how they mean to go on. 
I too started on £14k, had no money of my own, lots of debts, and many things to buy if I was even going to get to if not through the CATC door (a car for a start). I hadn't even considered if I could afford to up sticks and move 250 miles away from anyone I knew, I just knew I wanted the job and would accept what it gave me. I did know that if I succeeded that I would be then rewarded for my work.
I understand that its not easy for a family person or high earner to just give up everything and join ATC, but the ones that do are the ones that we want, they come with the right attitude and the right approach to make a good teamworker, therefore a great ATCO.
At least you know before you start that the pay is changing, I was already at the college when the current deal was pushed through. It meant that when we finished at the college, instead of going straight onto full ATCO pay (about 28k all in those days), I started on £19k and rose to £22k, and couldn't earn full ATCO pay even if I validated within 2 years (there are some that were faced with this problem).
The moral of the story? S
e happens, still a damn fine wage for someone that gives a company NOTHING if they fail (costs for training? Not even worth a guess these days), and gets LOTS if they succeed. 
Do you think that this acceptable practice by the HR dept of a major company?
I too started on £14k, had no money of my own, lots of debts, and many things to buy if I was even going to get to if not through the CATC door (a car for a start). I hadn't even considered if I could afford to up sticks and move 250 miles away from anyone I knew, I just knew I wanted the job and would accept what it gave me. I did know that if I succeeded that I would be then rewarded for my work.
I understand that its not easy for a family person or high earner to just give up everything and join ATC, but the ones that do are the ones that we want, they come with the right attitude and the right approach to make a good teamworker, therefore a great ATCO.
At least you know before you start that the pay is changing, I was already at the college when the current deal was pushed through. It meant that when we finished at the college, instead of going straight onto full ATCO pay (about 28k all in those days), I started on £19k and rose to £22k, and couldn't earn full ATCO pay even if I validated within 2 years (there are some that were faced with this problem).
The moral of the story? S
e happens, still a damn fine wage for someone that gives a company NOTHING if they fail (costs for training? Not even worth a guess these days), and gets LOTS if they succeed.
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Not sure if this is a daft question or not but im a complete newbie, you mentioned that it will be £14.5k + allowances, what is classed as allowances.
Incidently whoever mentioned that it sounds great to those coming straight from school, im applying whilst in my final year of A-levels and I am not complaining at £14.5k whilst training!
Incidently whoever mentioned that it sounds great to those coming straight from school, im applying whilst in my final year of A-levels and I am not complaining at £14.5k whilst training!
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Dear All
Having read through this forum I think there are a few things that should be pointed out to all involved (both students and current ATCO's)
Firstly lets look at what is happening to the new recruit pay : down 5K to 14K - and yes, you still get the housing allowance of 100 pounds a week. The housing benefit can be written off because you will find it pretty hard to find a decent room for less than 100 pounds a week -
Which means that CATC students will now take home aprox 980.00 a month after tax & NI - what does that pay for?
Some people posting on this topic have a mortgage and bills etc - and I believe that they have a right to be very aggrived with NATS over this. I feel that the company should honor the 19K salary to all those that sat and passed their initial selection tests before the pay structure was agreed.
___________________________________________________
The second thing I want to start a discussion about is the "type" of person that NATS is going to attract for 14K.
Lets be brutally realistic - I don't believe anyone would leave a job paying in excess of 28K to work for NATS (no matter how big the "dream") It's not good common sense - in the 2 years of college/validation it is likely that in their current job they would receive 2 salary increases and possibly a promotion - so they would be closer to 33K + maybe a car/health plan?
So this means that NATS will be looking for either:
a.) those who are poorly paid but very intelligent?
b.) Less mature First jobbers - -
Are these the people that we want controlling our every more populated skys??? NATS need to secure a high quaity of candidates if they want to avoid a 99% drop-out rate at the college
Thoughts?
Mark
PS - still no news on my interview , but if I have to start on 14K then I could not financially afford it - and after waiting for 2 yrs, would be very upsetting to have to let the opportunity go :-(
Having read through this forum I think there are a few things that should be pointed out to all involved (both students and current ATCO's)
Firstly lets look at what is happening to the new recruit pay : down 5K to 14K - and yes, you still get the housing allowance of 100 pounds a week. The housing benefit can be written off because you will find it pretty hard to find a decent room for less than 100 pounds a week -
Which means that CATC students will now take home aprox 980.00 a month after tax & NI - what does that pay for?
Some people posting on this topic have a mortgage and bills etc - and I believe that they have a right to be very aggrived with NATS over this. I feel that the company should honor the 19K salary to all those that sat and passed their initial selection tests before the pay structure was agreed.
___________________________________________________
The second thing I want to start a discussion about is the "type" of person that NATS is going to attract for 14K.
Lets be brutally realistic - I don't believe anyone would leave a job paying in excess of 28K to work for NATS (no matter how big the "dream") It's not good common sense - in the 2 years of college/validation it is likely that in their current job they would receive 2 salary increases and possibly a promotion - so they would be closer to 33K + maybe a car/health plan?
So this means that NATS will be looking for either:
a.) those who are poorly paid but very intelligent?
b.) Less mature First jobbers - -
Are these the people that we want controlling our every more populated skys??? NATS need to secure a high quaity of candidates if they want to avoid a 99% drop-out rate at the college
Thoughts?
Mark
PS - still no news on my interview , but if I have to start on 14K then I could not financially afford it - and after waiting for 2 yrs, would be very upsetting to have to let the opportunity go :-(
Last edited by mbwlewis; 6th Feb 2004 at 04:22.
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Kirstey + 777,
Look on the bright side,those that are in the college on the old rates of pay will have to buy the beers!!
Seriously though,this is a very tricky subject and it can only be down to the individual to decide whether they can take the offer.That is what the offer is,it is up to you to decide if you can afford to put pen to paper.
When i started with Eurocontrol we were the first ab initio to take a wage cut,it went down from 18k(GBP) to 9k (approx)!That is not a lot in Luxembourg.The other courses bought us a lot of beer!(It has mostly been bought back since though).
All i can say looking back is that it was hard but nothing worthwhile is ever handed to you on a plate and i wouldn't change my career for anything (having previously worked as a surveyor before ATC).
Look on the bright side,those that are in the college on the old rates of pay will have to buy the beers!!
Seriously though,this is a very tricky subject and it can only be down to the individual to decide whether they can take the offer.That is what the offer is,it is up to you to decide if you can afford to put pen to paper.
When i started with Eurocontrol we were the first ab initio to take a wage cut,it went down from 18k(GBP) to 9k (approx)!That is not a lot in Luxembourg.The other courses bought us a lot of beer!(It has mostly been bought back since though).
All i can say looking back is that it was hard but nothing worthwhile is ever handed to you on a plate and i wouldn't change my career for anything (having previously worked as a surveyor before ATC).
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I don't think anyone would argue that 14k is quite generous for someone who's, say, just left college with no commitments and isn't providing a productive return to NATS.
However, I think this move will remove a sizeable chunk of the recruitment 'pool' by making the initial salary so low as to dissuade older applicants from making a career switch. Surely few atsa's or RAF atco's will be able to bridge the financial gulf even if the will and enthusiam is there.
As an aside; if this is a calculated move by NATS to lower the age of applicants then this is a legitimate and, I suspect, very effective move.
However, I think this move will remove a sizeable chunk of the recruitment 'pool' by making the initial salary so low as to dissuade older applicants from making a career switch. Surely few atsa's or RAF atco's will be able to bridge the financial gulf even if the will and enthusiam is there.
As an aside; if this is a calculated move by NATS to lower the age of applicants then this is a legitimate and, I suspect, very effective move.
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I said I wouldn't comment anymore on this subject, but I will.
I'm a bit disappointed in some of the remarks from (I'm guessing) valid ATCO's who at one time were at the bottom of the ladder. Someone said something along the lines of" wasn't that the money we got when we went through?" - when was that exactly?
Yes, there's the allowances, but as mbwlewis said £100 won't get much these days. With the council tax just rocketing up in Bournemouth most of the B+B's are quoting a rise of 25% to cover it, that'll take the weekly well over £100. Its supposed to cover accommodation, food, pens, paper etc whilst at the college. Ofcourse the actual pay is just spending money really, but on what. For the mature people NATS are apparently looking for, most have other outgoings(mortgages, student loans etc) so do NATS want their students to be worrying over money as well as the course. I guess they could always get an evening job around their studying. Before we now it they'll be like proper students and not turning up for lectures
The sad thing is this job is brilliant, it is great to go to work and not many people can say that. Unfortunately the way things are going there won't be anyone coming along to take over and enjoy the same experiance. And if you don't believe me there's at least two people that have replied to this forum that are having to reconsider there future do to financial reasons - how many more are there? Coz one things for certain, less and less people are applying for this job.
I'm a bit disappointed in some of the remarks from (I'm guessing) valid ATCO's who at one time were at the bottom of the ladder. Someone said something along the lines of" wasn't that the money we got when we went through?" - when was that exactly?
Yes, there's the allowances, but as mbwlewis said £100 won't get much these days. With the council tax just rocketing up in Bournemouth most of the B+B's are quoting a rise of 25% to cover it, that'll take the weekly well over £100. Its supposed to cover accommodation, food, pens, paper etc whilst at the college. Ofcourse the actual pay is just spending money really, but on what. For the mature people NATS are apparently looking for, most have other outgoings(mortgages, student loans etc) so do NATS want their students to be worrying over money as well as the course. I guess they could always get an evening job around their studying. Before we now it they'll be like proper students and not turning up for lectures
The sad thing is this job is brilliant, it is great to go to work and not many people can say that. Unfortunately the way things are going there won't be anyone coming along to take over and enjoy the same experiance. And if you don't believe me there's at least two people that have replied to this forum that are having to reconsider there future do to financial reasons - how many more are there? Coz one things for certain, less and less people are applying for this job.
I think this sucks (excuse the Americanism). If you pay monkeys you get peanuts (excuse the proverb(ish)). Who, but the desperate will accept this appology of a salary especially with a 30ish percent probability of employment as an ATCO with NATS?
Does NATS really want to filter out all, but the desperate? Maybe it allows HR feel less incompetent...
When I started 12 years ago the cadetship payed as much as that (and even then it was only just sufficient to encourage me to join). The pay does eventually increase, but not more than an equivalently qualified person in most jobs outside NATS/ATC. I just hope that we are still able to recruit anyone but school kids (there is nothing wrong with school kids, some of the best cadets on my course were straight from school, but I'm positive that we all gain from a broad mix of experience and qualifications from the cadets).
[apologies for any offence or spelling mistakes to those easily offended]
Does NATS really want to filter out all, but the desperate? Maybe it allows HR feel less incompetent...
When I started 12 years ago the cadetship payed as much as that (and even then it was only just sufficient to encourage me to join). The pay does eventually increase, but not more than an equivalently qualified person in most jobs outside NATS/ATC. I just hope that we are still able to recruit anyone but school kids (there is nothing wrong with school kids, some of the best cadets on my course were straight from school, but I'm positive that we all gain from a broad mix of experience and qualifications from the cadets).
[apologies for any offence or spelling mistakes to those easily offended]
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Reality Check
There is no shortage of applicants for ATCO jobs. Maybe now we will get trainees attracted to the job by factors other than money. For the rest, the door is over there!