Student Pay!
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There are a few more of us immature first jobbers here than you think!
Allowances are 100 a week tax free for living expenses, and AFAIK expenses paid for one trip home a month, and any other directed travel.
Edit to say: I heard that the cost to NATS averaged out at 500k per student to train
Allowances are 100 a week tax free for living expenses, and AFAIK expenses paid for one trip home a month, and any other directed travel.
Edit to say: I heard that the cost to NATS averaged out at 500k per student to train
Last edited by Gonzo; 6th Feb 2004 at 04:38.
niknak
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NATS will not miss out if Kirsty and her pals throw their teddies out of the cot and decline the opportunity of getting the best training for the best job in the world.
What NATS will get is more applicants than they could ever shake a stick at, who are willing to accept that an employer is going to spend in the region of £250K on their training, not ask for a penny of it back, and give them a brilliant job which pays very well.
There are very few industries that will do this AND pay a living wage with tax free allowances which cover all your expenses whilst you are a trainee who may fail at any stage of the courses, thereby costing the employer a huge amount of money.
Like Chilli, I didnt get a cadetship, so I paid for all my own training, and I'll freely admit that it cost me a huge amount of cash and it nearly killed me.
That said, I don't begrudge anyone who gets into NATS and is successfull with the cadetship, well done and good luck to you, what I can't stomach is the whinging that is demonstrated on this site by petulant brats (young and old), who think the world owes them a living.
What NATS will get is more applicants than they could ever shake a stick at, who are willing to accept that an employer is going to spend in the region of £250K on their training, not ask for a penny of it back, and give them a brilliant job which pays very well.
There are very few industries that will do this AND pay a living wage with tax free allowances which cover all your expenses whilst you are a trainee who may fail at any stage of the courses, thereby costing the employer a huge amount of money.
Like Chilli, I didnt get a cadetship, so I paid for all my own training, and I'll freely admit that it cost me a huge amount of cash and it nearly killed me.
That said, I don't begrudge anyone who gets into NATS and is successfull with the cadetship, well done and good luck to you, what I can't stomach is the whinging that is demonstrated on this site by petulant brats (young and old), who think the world owes them a living.
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I left a very well paid profession to train as an ATCO some years back now. My salary was reduced considerably, we didn't get paid living expenses
To get paid a salary whilst training in aviation is rare, OK its hard if you have based all your figures on the higher salary , but at least you are getting paid, not having to pay for expensive ratings, your medical etc unlike our colleagues who have had to finance themselves.
It is an excellent career, it is but hopefully a short time that you are at the college. ATC has always attracted younger students because they are quite frankly more likely to succeed.
Don't give up an excellent career because of initial shortfalls in salary. It was hard for me to work on a reduced salary but now I can say the shorterm sacrifice was well worth it.
To get paid a salary whilst training in aviation is rare, OK its hard if you have based all your figures on the higher salary , but at least you are getting paid, not having to pay for expensive ratings, your medical etc unlike our colleagues who have had to finance themselves.
It is an excellent career, it is but hopefully a short time that you are at the college. ATC has always attracted younger students because they are quite frankly more likely to succeed.
Don't give up an excellent career because of initial shortfalls in salary. It was hard for me to work on a reduced salary but now I can say the shorterm sacrifice was well worth it.
Watchdog Delta Hotel
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flower you hit the nail on the cliche
you have to put up with hardship for most of the good things
but to those that have done don't slag hr too much they came through for me after bad illness(you know who you are cheers pal) so just hope they don't find who you are they may not be as helpfull as they could be
human nature and all that
you have to put up with hardship for most of the good things
but to those that have done don't slag hr too much they came through for me after bad illness(you know who you are cheers pal) so just hope they don't find who you are they may not be as helpfull as they could be
human nature and all that
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If nats have determined that enough desirable candidates can be found who are willing to train for the new pay scale then they are absolutely correct in what they are doing.
Whether it is correct to retrospectively apply this new scale to applicants who may have families and mortgages, and consequently, may have to withdraw from training because they can no longer support those families is another matter.
For me the fairest solution would be to apply the new pay scales to all applicants from this point forward.
Out of interest, how do the older students with aviation experience stack up against the college leavers during training?
Whether it is correct to retrospectively apply this new scale to applicants who may have families and mortgages, and consequently, may have to withdraw from training because they can no longer support those families is another matter.
For me the fairest solution would be to apply the new pay scales to all applicants from this point forward.
Out of interest, how do the older students with aviation experience stack up against the college leavers during training?
Ohcirrej
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As an aside a well, other ATS providers around the world require their ab-initios to pay for their courses. And some are signing in students/trainees into a contract that won't allow them to leave the company without paying back an agreed training cost.
I'm not saying the college pay is great, but it's much better than our pilot bretheren.........some of the costs involved there astound me. And those of our ATCers who had to pay for their courses.
I'm not saying the college pay is great, but it's much better than our pilot bretheren.........some of the costs involved there astound me. And those of our ATCers who had to pay for their courses.
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Is there any definite word on when and to whom this new scale will apply? Might be worth checking out before working up such a lather.
For what it's worth, I believe £14.5k + the tax free allowances and council tax exemption equate to a salary near the top of what a new university graduate could expect to earn in other careers.
For what it's worth, I believe £14.5k + the tax free allowances and council tax exemption equate to a salary near the top of what a new university graduate could expect to earn in other careers.
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The new pay deal if voted in will be implimented with those students beginning courses in early April onwards. Anyone that has already started at the college will not be affected by the student pay change, but will find slight modifications to their potential scale once they graduate the college leading up to initial validation. This modifcation should not even be noticed by these students as it is very minor.
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Glad to see that some of you have actually bothered to read my first post and come to the same conclusion as me...for the rest,agree to disagree.
Those of you who have persisted in branding me a whinger and "a petulant brat who thinks the world owes them living",I can't even be arsed to dignify your opinions with an answer....in fact you've only made me more determined than ever to succeed.
777
Those of you who have persisted in branding me a whinger and "a petulant brat who thinks the world owes them living",I can't even be arsed to dignify your opinions with an answer....in fact you've only made me more determined than ever to succeed.
777
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It almost looks to me like the airline types in NATS are taking over the bean counting... Have you ever looked at what they pay the late night frieght drivers who are flying single engine, single pilot operations??? Then when they move UP they are paying mere peanuts to the first officers.... Looks like they are looking at treating y'all about the same for the chance to work in Aviation...
Good luck
Scott
Good luck
Scott
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Thanks mate!
Glad this has ended amicably..was begining to wonder if I 'd get kneecapped on my first day at the college!
Gulity as charged of throwing my toys out the pram...had a few days to reflect on what was basically a knee-jerk reaction to getting bad news having arrived home after a 13hr flight and a marvellous holiday-you know how it is!
I have now seen the light.........
Hope to work with some of you guys....eventually
777.....signing off,subject closed (hopefully!)
Glad this has ended amicably..was begining to wonder if I 'd get kneecapped on my first day at the college!
Gulity as charged of throwing my toys out the pram...had a few days to reflect on what was basically a knee-jerk reaction to getting bad news having arrived home after a 13hr flight and a marvellous holiday-you know how it is!
I have now seen the light.........
Hope to work with some of you guys....eventually
777.....signing off,subject closed (hopefully!)
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I gave up a good job earning £40k 11 years ago to start at the College on £18k including allowances. Why? Because I wanted to be an Air Traffic Controller. That's called making a choice to do what interests you. If you're not prepared to take the rough with the not so rough then ATC is probably not for you.
Of course it's tough if you have a mortgage and so on to pay, but other people manage to clothe and feed their families on £14k for their whole life.
How many other industries (especially those relating to aviation) do you know where you will be paid a reasonable salary while a company spends its own money training you with no guarantee that you will make the grade? There are no bonding arrangements or payback if you fail. You either get through and move on the a well-paid ATCO salary or you say goodbye with no strings attached.
Compare this with Professional Pilot Training. £60k+ for an Integrated Course leading to a Frozen ATPL. There is no job guarantee even if you do make the standard, and you also have to fund your living expenses whilst you are earning nothing. Then you finish the course and have to persuade someone to employ you. In the mean time you may take up Flying Instructing (paying well below the NMW for the hours you put in) or another job whilst you wait. You have to pay for all your rating renewals (Instrument Rating £1000) to keep current. And maybe, just maybe, you will be lucky enough to get a job in the right hand seat of an airliner. You might get about £20k doing this. So why do people do it? Because it is their passion and what they want to do. It's not for the money, because you have a debt of upwards of £60k to pay off whether you get employed or not.
If you want to be an ATCO, you have to be prepared to put the effort in, and I'm afraid this includes taking Student Pay of £14.5k or whatever. If you stick at it and make the grade you could be on £35k+ in three years. Can't be bad, can it?
Seems to me, as someone has already said, that there are too many people out there who think the world owes them a living. If you decide you can't afford to live on the student salary then you have to make the choice between that and being an ATCO. Only you can make that choice, but don't demand that someone else subsidises you to make it all possible.
Of course it's tough if you have a mortgage and so on to pay, but other people manage to clothe and feed their families on £14k for their whole life.
How many other industries (especially those relating to aviation) do you know where you will be paid a reasonable salary while a company spends its own money training you with no guarantee that you will make the grade? There are no bonding arrangements or payback if you fail. You either get through and move on the a well-paid ATCO salary or you say goodbye with no strings attached.
Compare this with Professional Pilot Training. £60k+ for an Integrated Course leading to a Frozen ATPL. There is no job guarantee even if you do make the standard, and you also have to fund your living expenses whilst you are earning nothing. Then you finish the course and have to persuade someone to employ you. In the mean time you may take up Flying Instructing (paying well below the NMW for the hours you put in) or another job whilst you wait. You have to pay for all your rating renewals (Instrument Rating £1000) to keep current. And maybe, just maybe, you will be lucky enough to get a job in the right hand seat of an airliner. You might get about £20k doing this. So why do people do it? Because it is their passion and what they want to do. It's not for the money, because you have a debt of upwards of £60k to pay off whether you get employed or not.
If you want to be an ATCO, you have to be prepared to put the effort in, and I'm afraid this includes taking Student Pay of £14.5k or whatever. If you stick at it and make the grade you could be on £35k+ in three years. Can't be bad, can it?
Seems to me, as someone has already said, that there are too many people out there who think the world owes them a living. If you decide you can't afford to live on the student salary then you have to make the choice between that and being an ATCO. Only you can make that choice, but don't demand that someone else subsidises you to make it all possible.
More than just an ATCO
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So NATS is being dragged into the 21st century in another area.
Some years back, Eurocontrol realised that a lot of trainees were treating the training period as a well funded "gap year" then moving on to pastures new. Obvious cure, decrease the salary.
This was more than compensated for then by a re-structured career path, where process through the grades was more or less assured at stipulated intervals instead of the previous lottery. Admittedly this is now all up in the air again.
Those who had signed on already continued to receive the old, higher rate, newcomers got the lower rate. If you didn't like it, tough, we moved on to the next applicant. Eurocontrol's cachement area is considerably larger than NATS (thereby pemitting the earlier cut-off age, and whilst £14k mabe doesn't sound that much in the UK it is a hell of a lot to a Romanian goat herd - or for that matter, a UK student now faced with top up fees
Similarly the introduction of A and B scales by US airlines in the 1980's did not deter applicants there; if you really want the job, not the "glamour", you accept it
As niknak and others pointed out there are very few other jobs which can give so much satisfaction, both on a personal and financial level whilst still keeping your clothes on. If you are not prepared to accept the entry conditions then, "Goodbye, next contestant please ...."
Lon More
here since before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus was a Rigger
Off thread but maybe relevant, back when the Provost was still a primary training aircraft, was I really so stupid as to tell a 10 man selection board for Cranwell that I wanted to fly transports instead of fighters because I would get a better job when i left the RAF?
Some years back, Eurocontrol realised that a lot of trainees were treating the training period as a well funded "gap year" then moving on to pastures new. Obvious cure, decrease the salary.
This was more than compensated for then by a re-structured career path, where process through the grades was more or less assured at stipulated intervals instead of the previous lottery. Admittedly this is now all up in the air again.
Those who had signed on already continued to receive the old, higher rate, newcomers got the lower rate. If you didn't like it, tough, we moved on to the next applicant. Eurocontrol's cachement area is considerably larger than NATS (thereby pemitting the earlier cut-off age, and whilst £14k mabe doesn't sound that much in the UK it is a hell of a lot to a Romanian goat herd - or for that matter, a UK student now faced with top up fees
Similarly the introduction of A and B scales by US airlines in the 1980's did not deter applicants there; if you really want the job, not the "glamour", you accept it
As niknak and others pointed out there are very few other jobs which can give so much satisfaction, both on a personal and financial level whilst still keeping your clothes on. If you are not prepared to accept the entry conditions then, "Goodbye, next contestant please ...."
Lon More
here since before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus was a Rigger
Off thread but maybe relevant, back when the Provost was still a primary training aircraft, was I really so stupid as to tell a 10 man selection board for Cranwell that I wanted to fly transports instead of fighters because I would get a better job when i left the RAF?
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eyeinthesky,
I think we're arguing at cross purposes; as far as I can see people are making two distinct points:
1. Being paid 14.5k+ allowances whilst under training is a good deal and students should consider themselves priviliged.
2. Some older applicants have calculated that mortgages can be financed and families just about supported on the advertised rates of pay when the forms were initially sent off. Those rates of pay have been slashed just before their courses starts leaving them in a potentially difficult position.
I would agree with both points of view. I don't think enthusiasm and commitment to atc are in question here; just financial realities.
I think we're arguing at cross purposes; as far as I can see people are making two distinct points:
1. Being paid 14.5k+ allowances whilst under training is a good deal and students should consider themselves priviliged.
2. Some older applicants have calculated that mortgages can be financed and families just about supported on the advertised rates of pay when the forms were initially sent off. Those rates of pay have been slashed just before their courses starts leaving them in a potentially difficult position.
I would agree with both points of view. I don't think enthusiasm and commitment to atc are in question here; just financial realities.
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alfie1999
Agreed on both points.
Hand on heart (to everyone) - how many of you out there would take a job, if after the interview you were told you could have it at %25 less pay than advertised?
Some people are talking about the real world on this thread, I doubt that does much good for people like myself (too many goes/too old ) or Mr.777 who has to pay a mortgage etc. out of thin air for the next three months.
The world owes you nothing in your journey through life, but it sure deals out a lot of crap along the way.
Also - those who are talking about "it's ok as pilots do so" should realise that the huge costs, no income for 2 years etc. put a lot of wannabes off that career. Not everyone has a sympathetic parent/bank manager. Also, pilots, as a whole, get paid a heck of a lot more (or at leas the pay ceiling is higher).
Just another example of the indifference to applicants and "tough ****e" attitude within NATS - as there's loads of applicants, so why worry??
That attitude seems to run throughout the organisation (no pun intended
).
I hope most of you don't treat your women/fellas in the same way just because "there's plenty of fish in sea". Must be a lot of single/divorced NATS staff out there......
WF
Agreed on both points.
Hand on heart (to everyone) - how many of you out there would take a job, if after the interview you were told you could have it at %25 less pay than advertised?
Some people are talking about the real world on this thread, I doubt that does much good for people like myself (too many goes/too old
) or Mr.777 who has to pay a mortgage etc. out of thin air for the next three months.The world owes you nothing in your journey through life, but it sure deals out a lot of crap along the way.
Also - those who are talking about "it's ok as pilots do so" should realise that the huge costs, no income for 2 years etc. put a lot of wannabes off that career. Not everyone has a sympathetic parent/bank manager. Also, pilots, as a whole, get paid a heck of a lot more (or at leas the pay ceiling is higher).
Just another example of the indifference to applicants and "tough ****e" attitude within NATS - as there's loads of applicants, so why worry??
That attitude seems to run throughout the organisation (no pun intended
).I hope most of you don't treat your women/fellas in the same way just because "there's plenty of fish in sea". Must be a lot of single/divorced NATS staff out there......
WF
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Quote
Also, pilots, as a whole, get paid a heck of a lot more (or at leas the pay ceiling is higher).
Unquote
Err, with the exception perhaps of Big Airways, not entirely true. Take a look in the Wannabes forum or Terms and Endearment and you will see that rates of pay (especially for First Officers, which is what you are in effect when you leave CATC in ATC) are nowhere near those of a newly-validated ATCO. The ATCO hasn't run up a debt of £60k just for training and walks straight into a job after initial training.
Added to this is guaranteed progression up a salary scale based upon time in service not performance and a cost of living rise negotiated every year (and that's always fun to discuss, as another thread on this forum shows..
), and it's not a bad deal after the first few years.
As for the 25% reduction in 'promised' salary, then I can accept that this is a bit hard to take. But you have to draw a line somewhere and you are not actually employed by NATS until you start at the College. Anything before that is no more than an indication. There are also courses being put back to fit in better with the training requirements and avoid paying you to sit on your backside for 6 months awaiting further training. This saves the company a shed load of money and makes your long term future more secure.
As others have pointed out, by reducing the costs on student salaries the company is able to finance a better salary for valid ATCOs, of which you will hopefully be one one day. Surely it is better to improve a salary scheme which you will be on for maybe 40 years than it is to concentrate on the first 3 years?
My only advice is to bite the bullet, keep your head down (don't get recoursed because that prolongs your time on the T&D scale) and pass through CATC and on to your unit. Hopefully you will soon get onto live training and validate, then you will soon forget the 'pain' of the first few years.
Also, pilots, as a whole, get paid a heck of a lot more (or at leas the pay ceiling is higher).
Unquote
Err, with the exception perhaps of Big Airways, not entirely true. Take a look in the Wannabes forum or Terms and Endearment and you will see that rates of pay (especially for First Officers, which is what you are in effect when you leave CATC in ATC) are nowhere near those of a newly-validated ATCO. The ATCO hasn't run up a debt of £60k just for training and walks straight into a job after initial training.
Added to this is guaranteed progression up a salary scale based upon time in service not performance and a cost of living rise negotiated every year (and that's always fun to discuss, as another thread on this forum shows..
), and it's not a bad deal after the first few years.As for the 25% reduction in 'promised' salary, then I can accept that this is a bit hard to take. But you have to draw a line somewhere and you are not actually employed by NATS until you start at the College. Anything before that is no more than an indication. There are also courses being put back to fit in better with the training requirements and avoid paying you to sit on your backside for 6 months awaiting further training. This saves the company a shed load of money and makes your long term future more secure.
As others have pointed out, by reducing the costs on student salaries the company is able to finance a better salary for valid ATCOs, of which you will hopefully be one one day. Surely it is better to improve a salary scheme which you will be on for maybe 40 years than it is to concentrate on the first 3 years?
My only advice is to bite the bullet, keep your head down (don't get recoursed because that prolongs your time on the T&D scale) and pass through CATC and on to your unit. Hopefully you will soon get onto live training and validate, then you will soon forget the 'pain' of the first few years.
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HI.
I have recently passed my interview. I do not want to be negative and I feel that a lot of disrespect towards ATCO has been shown.
I just find it shocking that I find out about this salary proposal on this site and not being told officially by Nats.
Again I am in a situation with living to my current income with a wife and kids. I already have an interview with my bank manager to find out how I am going to afford the drop in wages and now I am faced with an even bigger problem.
In the end it will all be worth it, obviously the biggest problem though is living expenses, with a big mortgage I will also need to rent somewhere in bournemouth. Can anyone give me a rough monthly figure of rent, as I will need the £100 pound a week they give me for mortgage. I would conside living in a caravan is that practical and how much??
cheers.
I have recently passed my interview. I do not want to be negative and I feel that a lot of disrespect towards ATCO has been shown.
I just find it shocking that I find out about this salary proposal on this site and not being told officially by Nats.
Again I am in a situation with living to my current income with a wife and kids. I already have an interview with my bank manager to find out how I am going to afford the drop in wages and now I am faced with an even bigger problem.
In the end it will all be worth it, obviously the biggest problem though is living expenses, with a big mortgage I will also need to rent somewhere in bournemouth. Can anyone give me a rough monthly figure of rent, as I will need the £100 pound a week they give me for mortgage. I would conside living in a caravan is that practical and how much??
cheers.