Student Pay!

[rodan]

By the way the person who said that £14.5K is better than some gradutes needs to take a look as most graduate salaries are normally in the range £18k - 22k.

£14.5k basic.

£100 p/w tax free ---> £5.2k

Tax + NI on £100 p/w ---> £5.2k x 1.333* = £6.9k

£14.5k + £6.9k = £21.4k equivalent salary. QED.

And you can add tax free expenses for a trip home every month regardless of whether you actually make said trip.

*A rough calculation that is normally quite accurate for basic rate tax band.

Just another rant, are NATS not on shaky ground by offering jobs at a reduced salary without first sending the aforementioned notice of change to applicants already in the system????

They aren't. Not yet, anyway. The pay deal will have to be accepted first, I would imagine they will break the bad news to you then.

[055166k]

Graduate?

There is no requirement for a controller to be a graduate. Why do you assume that the pay should equate to that of a graduate in other jobs? My experience with "graduate" trainees is that quite a few fell into the job as third or fourth choice......and have little or no real "hunger-to-control" apart from the money. They expect to be employed by NATS for life with rock-solid job security. They don't actually expect to control aircraft for more than 3 or four years [ after 2 years of unit training to first validation] before advancement up the ladder. The offices are full of people on controller pay who haven't spoken to an aeroplane in recorded history......I judge the person rather than the qualifications, and if you just happen to have a degree then good for you....but don't expect an inflated salary if you are under-selling yourself.

[Kirstey]

055166k - we expect an inflated salary becasue we're doing a really tough job with a HUGE amount of resposibility. You'll be able to tell me I'm sure, but roughly how many lives a shift does, say, an EGLL director have under their watchful eye? on top of that there are millions of people underneath any potential crash to be taken into consideration!

It's strikes me as a helluva job to take on.. No reason for the pay not to reflect that in my opinion!

anyway after starting this, it's gratifying to see that some people have sympathy with my issues, and Chilli's rant was a reasonably isolated one.

So just because it's not a graduate post and a degree is no pointer to aptitude the nature of the job is a thousand times harder than most other graduate positions. For example - if been at work for an hour! I'm off for a cup of tea and a fag.. you can't do that at the drop of a hat at LACC I'm sure!

[Gonzo]

Kirstey,

Bear in mind that this drop in pay at the college means that you'll be earning appreciably more when you are in that position of responsibility.

[tired-flyboy]

Graduates

055166K (ex-mil per chance????)

Your correct a degree is not a requirement to be controller, but i think you may have missed the point.

What was said is that a gradute could resonably expect to earn £18K in a trainee program, but most are realistic that this does not always happen!!!!

Rodan -

using your figures and calculation method cadets currently on the course will be earning the equivalent of £26.4K -

What was your point??? we still lose out!

but lets have a comparison using Kirsty's point - a train driver will get paid more than a trainee (OJT) controller - go figure that one out - comments anybody????

[Gonzo]

a train driver will get paid more than a trainee (OJT) controller - go figure that one out - comments

Is that a fair comparison?

What about a trainee train driver?

I know that it's not pleasant to be told that your salary won't be as high as you thought, especially for those with families and other considerations, but if this deal does go through, then once you get to the position of having that responsibility, ie. first validation, you're salary will start higher and increase at a much quicker rate than currently.

I think rodan's point was to illustrate that if the new pay deal gets agreed, then students won't be on £14.5k as some people are claiming, but equivalent of £21.4k.

[alfie1999]

Gonzo,
It's getting to the position of responsibility that is going to be the problem for many. A good number of older applicants will be 'priced-out' of a career switch into ATC ; I don't have a problem with that if NATS have decided they need more productive time out of their employees. My only issue has been one of 'good faith'; NATS should honour the terms advertised over the couple of years (and still showing now).

Some will argue that NATS owe applicants nothing until they're thru the front door but i'm not sure thats a fair argument in this day and age.

[Not Long Now]

Yes we're responsible for a lot of lives, but let's not do train drivers down. There's not much chance of a stupid idiot jumping out infront of our radar and turning to jam all over the screen before our very eyes...
Train drivers are welcome to what ever they can get.

[Stupendous Man]

To those of you that have applied and been accepted for a course have any of you signed a contract with NATS?

If not then I would say you don't really have a leg to stand on. I appreciate the fact that the goal posts have been shifted somewhat - but until you have signed that bit of paper NATS owes you nothing.

The reason that a train driver gets paid more than a student atco is because the train driver has passed all his train driving courses and been checked out on his train! He is generating an income for the company. I know it seems quite ruthless - but until you are working at a unit you aren't really generating any cash.

Not an ideal situation to be in - but if you can stick it out for the few years at the start and put in the hard work required the rewards are more than worth it.

[weselfluren]

but until you have signed that bit of paper NATS owes you nothing

Quite true, but do the following words mean nothing to the company?

Trust
Faith
Honesty
Understanding


Yes, there are a lot of candidates per post (supposedly) so they wouldn't be up the creek without the paddle if one or two people turned them down. If it was a job in hr/management/ops which was a one person ad, they couldn't advertise a job at one salary, then offer it at a lesser post interview. They simply wouldn't get the candidate they thought they were.

Trainees will become bitter even before they are allowed to visit catc. Possibly even more so than yours truly.....

This attitude of "tough luck, take it or leave it" stinks. Not promoting company loyalty towards the student, so I doubt there'll be much going the other way.

[eyeinthesky]

Don't forget that, unlike the train driver in your analogy, the trainee (OJT) controller has NO ultimate responsibility for the safety of the passengers or the people on the ground. That lies with the OJTI, on whose licence you are operating, and who is paid a little extra (another can of worms there ) for taking on that responsibility.

Once you successfully validate, THEN you take on the responsibility, and THEN you get the money.

Seems fair enough to me.

[rodan]

There is no requirement for a controller to be a graduate. Why do you assume that the pay should equate to that of a graduate in other jobs?

I'm not assuming anything, it's just a useful comparison. It was mentioned earlier in the topic that NATS may be going after graduate types now rather than those looking to change career, or ex-mil. The figures I posted seem to support this. Whether it is a good idea or not isn't my place to say.

using your figures and calculation method cadets currently on the course will be earning the equivalent of £26.4K -What was your point??? we still lose out!

See above.

I think rodan's point was to illustrate that if the new pay deal gets agreed, then students won't be on £14.5k as some people are claiming, but equivalent of £21.4k.

Correct, although it should be borne in mind that those with mortgages and family in a different part of the country will effectively be on less since they have to pay for accomodation twice over. Hence why this is still an attractive prospect for graduates, who probably don't have such commitments yet.

[Point Seven]

It ain't often that I agree with Gonzo (is it matey?!) but he has made a good point all the way through this forum.

And anyhow, I personally don't want people wanting to do ATC beacause of the money. There are already too many starting to filter through and it shows in their attitude. Call me old fashioned but this job is a vocation and to do it well you've got to truly appreciate what everyone is trying to acheive. Not just appreciate your own pay cheque.

So if you ARE on 40k and you're not prepared to take a pay cut to do this, clear off beacause you're not cut out for it anyway

P7

[Kirstey]

Point 7 - I am prepared to take a pay cut! I prepared to the take the one I budgeted for last year! Not the the one they want to force on me now! If I was in it for cash then I wouldn't have applied in the first place would I? and to be fair there seems to be support from most places on this thread, and constructive argument both ways!

Thanks for an excellent contrubution .7, to finish allow me to quote Alpha 16 from a thread in Dec 2002

----------------------------

Dearest Point Seven.... for starters I am a 'she' not a 'he'.

secondly, if your now a controller at "the busiest airport that Blighty has to offer" then I'm assuming it's been a while since you actually sat the tests. I've sat and passed them with flying colours (oh yes... i checked!!) twice in the last 2 years.. I would assume that makes me more qualified to give advice than you!

thirdly... just cos you were successful first time does not make you any better a controller than a person that takes 2 or 3 attempts. The fact that you see fit to advertise it on this site as though its going to up your profile is a bit sad.

fourth and finally, if getting into NATS means you have to be a completely obnoxious, arrogant **** like your good self then I doubt I'll ever get in!

A16

----------------
I hope if I go ahead with NATS I don't end up in LL tower - I'd hate to lose out on "turd of the year" award to you every year!

[VectorLine]

I certainly don't agree with dropping students salaries - very unfair after advertising a certain level.

However, £21.4K if that is correct, is more than I earned at CATC and that was only 6 years ago. It was also a career change for me. It's good money for a temporary job. (which it is until you validate)

You could compare SATCs/TATCs to trainee accountants and lawyers. Generally the salaries are similar and the latter 2 require a better education standard.

Whatever happens, there is no point moaning about it - decide whether you can accept the salary to make the career change and accept or decline the job offer. SIMPLE

I think it is a great job worth doing and it doesn't take long to get back to £40k+

Kirstey quoted Alpha 16

if getting into NATS means you have to be a completely obnoxious, arrogant **** like your good self then I doubt I'll ever get in!

Did A16 get in?? I wonder..

and kirstey, from..

Becoming an ATCO isn't a dream for me. It's a considered move into aviation, in order to give me a chance of a career I may enjoy. Money is still a big factor for me.

You sounds as though you have the right stuff!

And what's all this guff about 'Their Lives in our Hands' ? ? - we are not brain surgeons or Gods (despite what the chaps and chapesses at TC think!), It's not life or death..

[fourthreethree]

And what's all this guff about 'Their Lives in our Hands' ? ? - we are not brain surgeons or Gods (despite what the chaps and chapesses at TC think!), It's not life or death..

Now either I am missing something here or that is the most outrageously wrong thing I have seen on these forums for a long time.
In the light of events over the last few years I can't believe you have the apathy and/or audacity to say something like that.

[Jerricho]

Thank you for reminding us about Alpha16 Kirstey.

She has been very quite the past month or so, hasn't she? Always a reliable source of information and insults. And a seemingly massive dose of sour grapes (but we won't start down that road again.........I'm sure Mod Radar has better things to do!)

And come on V-L, you want to sell yourself short with that throw away comment, fine. Don't group the rest of us into it! I suppose you feel pilots are just glorified bus drivers?

[PPRuNe Radar]

(but we won't start down that road again.........I'm sure Mod Radar has better things to do!)

I do ... and a few of you have started down that road again. Stick to the topic folks or I'll bin the thread. That's the simplest thing for me to do by far

[Kirstey]

I think in context a16 comments wern't enitrely inappropriate!

Jerricho - you strike me as being a smart guy, and MORE than capable of saying what he thinks and standing up for himself. What would your reaction have been if you'd have been offered a place at CATC and then send a letter confirming that your salary would be c£5k less than you were first told!?

Not looking for a fight here - just curious?

[Jerricho]

Fair enough Kirstey, check your PM's

(Anybody comment about me being a smart guy, remember I'm leaving the country in a couple of days, and I know where you all live!!