Student Pay!
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Student Pay!
Hi,
I'm sure it's in the depths here somewhere, but I'm not in a searching mood!
What is the salary/living allowance for Trainee ATCOS these days?
How will any new Pay deals affect this? (I did look at the looooong WP thread, but couldn't seem to find anything!)
ta!
I'm sure it's in the depths here somewhere, but I'm not in a searching mood!
What is the salary/living allowance for Trainee ATCOS these days?
How will any new Pay deals affect this? (I did look at the looooong WP thread, but couldn't seem to find anything!)
ta!
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Student Pay is to be totally restructured with the new deal, the first course affected is that starting in April. It is a new scale (ladder) that begins if I am correct around £17k.
Not bad for a student
Not bad for a student
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Try £14,500 plus allowances. Going to £19,000 + shift once finished at the college till validation. Good for people straight from school I guess. But I'm not sure about 19K till validation.
I was wondering how many ex RAF will apply now, not many i'm guessing as its a drastic cut in pay.
And how many ATSA's will apply too now? Although they will mark time it will now take around a year and a half after finishing the college before the rest of the course catch up making it around 4 years without any pay rise. That on top of the rumoured harder interviews etc could stop ATSA's from applying totally.
Waste of experiance on both the above really.
I was wondering how many ex RAF will apply now, not many i'm guessing as its a drastic cut in pay.
And how many ATSA's will apply too now? Although they will mark time it will now take around a year and a half after finishing the college before the rest of the course catch up making it around 4 years without any pay rise. That on top of the rumoured harder interviews etc could stop ATSA's from applying totally.
Waste of experiance on both the above really.
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Has that been confirmed? How on earth can they justify having people a few months apart earning so much less than their course predocessors!?
and how can I justify leaving a 40k job!?
has the course been restructured yet, or is it still 18months?
and how can I justify leaving a 40k job!?
has the course been restructured yet, or is it still 18months?
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Does anyone else have any good news or will I just hang myself now?
After being shafted twice,this could be the final nail in thecoffin for me....will have to give serious consideration as to whether I can afford the drop as I would have been struggling with the original salary.
Thank you NATS for ruining my dream
777.......seriously pissed off by now
After being shafted twice,this could be the final nail in thecoffin for me....will have to give serious consideration as to whether I can afford the drop as I would have been struggling with the original salary.
Thank you NATS for ruining my dream
777.......seriously pissed off by now
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Mr 777 & Kirstey - Christ, what a pair of whingers!
Think yourself lucky that you're being paid anything to get your 'dream'. There are some of us out there who paid for our own courses, whilst not earning an income. Then when it came to enter the job market it was a case of take an ATSA position with the hope of getting that first certificate of competence and hopefully an ATCO post to go with it.
If you want to do something bad enough then you'll put up with a little hardship (and that salary during training, when you're non-productive, isn't exactly a hardship is it?)
Sometimes you have to go out on a limb and take a risk to get what you want - if you want it easy then may I suggest you re-think your future career ideas!
Think yourself lucky that you're being paid anything to get your 'dream'. There are some of us out there who paid for our own courses, whilst not earning an income. Then when it came to enter the job market it was a case of take an ATSA position with the hope of getting that first certificate of competence and hopefully an ATCO post to go with it.
If you want to do something bad enough then you'll put up with a little hardship (and that salary during training, when you're non-productive, isn't exactly a hardship is it?)
Sometimes you have to go out on a limb and take a risk to get what you want - if you want it easy then may I suggest you re-think your future career ideas!
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Lol well if you were good enough you wouldn't have to pay would you! My old man got paid to train as an ATSA and then do his training at Bournemouth, this was over 30yrs ago!
Anyway my point IS, that the last course were on 19k + allowance, the next course is 14.5k + allowance. Bearing in mind most people applied at least 18months ago when the salary was advertised as 19k then they have every right to expect that.
And if I don't whine I wouldn't make a very good ATCO would I!?
Anyway my point IS, that the last course were on 19k + allowance, the next course is 14.5k + allowance. Bearing in mind most people applied at least 18months ago when the salary was advertised as 19k then they have every right to expect that.
And if I don't whine I wouldn't make a very good ATCO would I!?
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well if you were good enough you wouldn't have to pay would you!
And I think you'll find that the course has been re-structured (stand to be corrected), as incumbents are being streamed directly to either Approach or Area. BTW, have you actually SIGNED an acceptance contract from NATS yet. Doesn't sound like it.
You're very quick to use the word dream. One would have thought (take our pilots out there for example and some of the crap they have to endure to get a ride) that if this was really true, you'd be jumping at the chance. How can I justify leaving a £40k job..................simple DON'T!
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Bearing in mind most people applied at least 18months ago when the salary was advertised as 19k then they have every right to expect that.
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Lol well if you were good enough you wouldn't have to pay would you!
I'm assuming that if you ever fly as a passenger, Kirstey, you first find out if the flight crew is going to consist of those who were selected by the airline for a sponsored training course, or ex-military. Surely those who paid for their PPL, became a QFI, got their ATPL by taking out a 60k loan aren't good enough and you refuse to fly.
Just wondering.
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And I'm sure the ATC licence CM has just proves he/she wasn't good enough (if you don't take the a/c endorsements into consideration either!)
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What if you were only getting 10K per annum. Would you still do it? Think of the poor old university students who have to pay for themselves and end up in debt at the end of their course. Even if you do not validate at least you will have been paid. In my day (as an ex ATSA) we got paid expenses which actually increased our salary, even though we did not get unsocial hours or shift liability payment, we were better off. This might of changed now. To be frank, take whatever salary they give, work hard, pass the exams amd validate. Then you can moan and make criticisms of the system. I paid for my own ATPL albeit on an ATCO's salary at the time and have now doubled my salary. Thinking back, I would have dome the cadetship for free as my dream was always to work in aviation either flying or ATC, fortunately done both through ambition and tenacity. I wish you all the best, but watch the attitude when you get to Swanwick. Times have changed and to chop someone is quite easy. Do not p**s anybody off.
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Guys,
Maybe you're being a little harsh. If candidates have submitted applications on the basis of advertised rates of pay then I feel NATS should act in good faith and make the new rates of pay valid from aplications entered from this point onwards. The 'love of the job' line could be taken to a conclusion that leads to working for nothing...and I could probably find a thread not too far from here.....
Maybe you're being a little harsh. If candidates have submitted applications on the basis of advertised rates of pay then I feel NATS should act in good faith and make the new rates of pay valid from aplications entered from this point onwards. The 'love of the job' line could be taken to a conclusion that leads to working for nothing...and I could probably find a thread not too far from here.....
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alfie1999,
I think the tone of the first sentence of the post was the thing that riled a few of us:
WRT the decrease in salary; yes, I can see why one might be put out, but let's be honest, anyone who doesn't have, in writing, the payscale they'll be on before joining the company (ie. when you send back the 'Yes, I'll accept the offer of emplyment' letter), only have themselves to blame. IIRC that same letter detailed the salary I'd be receiving. Up until that point there is no commitment on either side.
I think the tone of the first sentence of the post was the thing that riled a few of us:
Lol well if you were good enough you wouldn't have to pay would you!
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Kirstey
Not that it's any business of yours but I had to pay because of age and circumstance. The fact that I hold a licence with 3 valid ratings and exercise those privileges every day at work means I must be doing something right - so I think I've proved I'm "good enough".
All you've proved is an ability to shoot your mouth off without anything to back it up - I'd be very careful if I were you as you never know who'll be sat behind you one day (as others have said - if you get that far. Many haven't
)
I really hope that was written in jest - if not then your career choice really is dubious
Lol well if you were good enough you wouldn't have to pay would you!
All you've proved is an ability to shoot your mouth off without anything to back it up - I'd be very careful if I were you as you never know who'll be sat behind you one day (as others have said - if you get that far. Many haven't
)
And if I don't whine I wouldn't make a very good ATCO would I
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Chilli Monster
"A little hardship",as you so quaintly put it,means a bit more than cutting down on the beers for me.I'm 30,with a mortgage to pay amongst other things.At the end of the day,I'm not fresh out of Uni,so £14.5k is ****** all to me pal when I currently get in excess of £30k.Besides,Ive done my time as a student and,ironically enough,am about to finish paying off my student loans.
When I applied OVER 2 YEARS AGO,I was given a salary structure and,having looked at it,my partner and I decided it would be struggle to start with but that we would manage somehow.When the salary drops £5k a "struggle" becomes "can't afford to pay the mortgage" time....the proposed salary won't even cover my outgoings,let alone pay for food.
To be honest,your attitude disappoints me.I've not slagged off any ATCOs in my post or denigrated the job itself.All I've done is state my financial position.I have plenty of friends doing ATPL,so I do not require a lecture on that front.This job is all I've ever wanted to do,hence the disappointment.
Furthermore,my course has just been put back again.As I have already handed my notice in to my current employers,I face the possibility of being unemployed for 2 months before starting on this lower wage scale.
At the end of the day I don't suppose you care about any of this because cutting the cost for trainees is paying for your pay rise.
777
"A little hardship",as you so quaintly put it,means a bit more than cutting down on the beers for me.I'm 30,with a mortgage to pay amongst other things.At the end of the day,I'm not fresh out of Uni,so £14.5k is ****** all to me pal when I currently get in excess of £30k.Besides,Ive done my time as a student and,ironically enough,am about to finish paying off my student loans.
When I applied OVER 2 YEARS AGO,I was given a salary structure and,having looked at it,my partner and I decided it would be struggle to start with but that we would manage somehow.When the salary drops £5k a "struggle" becomes "can't afford to pay the mortgage" time....the proposed salary won't even cover my outgoings,let alone pay for food.
To be honest,your attitude disappoints me.I've not slagged off any ATCOs in my post or denigrated the job itself.All I've done is state my financial position.I have plenty of friends doing ATPL,so I do not require a lecture on that front.This job is all I've ever wanted to do,hence the disappointment.
Furthermore,my course has just been put back again.As I have already handed my notice in to my current employers,I face the possibility of being unemployed for 2 months before starting on this lower wage scale.
At the end of the day I don't suppose you care about any of this because cutting the cost for trainees is paying for your pay rise.
777
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Ah yes, Mr 777 the dream chaser.
While I wish you and all prospective TATC's all the best........
Do you really needed pointed out to you that this will be the same pay scale you will eventually be going on to on successful completion of your course. Geezus! Starting an us and them already!
While I wish you and all prospective TATC's all the best........
At the end of the day I don't suppose you care about any of this because cutting the cost for trainees is paying for your pay rise.
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Jerricho,
Fair comment.Not starting and "us and them" thing at all.I having nothing but respect for you guys and the job you do...hopefully I'll be doing it myself.Like I said,just pointing out a few financial home truths (for me anyway).
I think the main thing I was trying to get across is that a lot of us have been messed around by HR...chasing a dream is one thing,but continually putting your life on hold is another.At the end of the day,we all have lives outside work and everyone's situation is different.Personally,I object to being called a "whinger" for commenting on this.
I fully intend to get down to the college,knuckle down and keep a low profile...I'm old enough to realise that rocking the boat is not advisable (not that I would anyway).
Apologies for any offence caused,this was not what I intended in my original post.
777
Fair comment.Not starting and "us and them" thing at all.I having nothing but respect for you guys and the job you do...hopefully I'll be doing it myself.Like I said,just pointing out a few financial home truths (for me anyway).
I think the main thing I was trying to get across is that a lot of us have been messed around by HR...chasing a dream is one thing,but continually putting your life on hold is another.At the end of the day,we all have lives outside work and everyone's situation is different.Personally,I object to being called a "whinger" for commenting on this.
I fully intend to get down to the college,knuckle down and keep a low profile...I'm old enough to realise that rocking the boat is not advisable (not that I would anyway).
Apologies for any offence caused,this was not what I intended in my original post.
777
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A few more answers to a couple of questions, then I'm going to get out of this one.
from Kirsty.
If you're lucky, generally there is a hold at some stage normally 2 to 3 months, however due to the new course restructuring there is a 6 month hold for the current aerodrome 1 course before starting Area. Thats all if you go through without failing anything.
from Jerricho
I believe the restructure starts in Jan 2005 hence the six month hold mentioned above. There wont be a direct start Area course initially due to courses currently running.
All I'm really worried about with this pay matter is how many people are going to apply now coz no matter the love of the job or "dream chasers" ( I was one of them) money has to be considered. As I said in my first input to this discussion the money is great for those straight from school but people with families, homes or a well paid job have a lot more to consider now.
TRH
has the course been restructured yet, or is it still 18months?
If you're lucky, generally there is a hold at some stage normally 2 to 3 months, however due to the new course restructuring there is a 6 month hold for the current aerodrome 1 course before starting Area. Thats all if you go through without failing anything.
And I think you'll find that the course has been re-structured (stand to be corrected), as incumbents are being streamed directly to either Approach or Area
I believe the restructure starts in Jan 2005 hence the six month hold mentioned above. There wont be a direct start Area course initially due to courses currently running.
All I'm really worried about with this pay matter is how many people are going to apply now coz no matter the love of the job or "dream chasers" ( I was one of them) money has to be considered. As I said in my first input to this discussion the money is great for those straight from school but people with families, homes or a well paid job have a lot more to consider now.
TRH
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mr 777
Ok - some facts to answer your (in my case anyway) totally unjustified comments
1 - I don't work for NATS, so I'm not paying for your 'shortfall'
2 - I was 34 when I did my courses, having been made redundant from the RAF (not quite the straight out of uni / no commitments persona).
3 - I was also getting divorced, and getting screwed in that department (ex-wife and two kids)
4 - I was risking my money with NO income
5 - On succesful completion of the course I didn't actually have a job - that was the next hurdle. (On succesful completion you will have one.)
So - before going in for my final sim session my thought was: "If I fail this I've got no money, no home, no career - in short - I'm screwed!" No pressure - much!
Care to change your assessment of me?
Ok - some facts to answer your (in my case anyway) totally unjustified comments
At the end of the day I don't suppose you care about any of this because cutting the cost for trainees is paying for your pay rise.
2 - I was 34 when I did my courses, having been made redundant from the RAF (not quite the straight out of uni / no commitments persona).
3 - I was also getting divorced, and getting screwed in that department (ex-wife and two kids)
4 - I was risking my money with NO income
5 - On succesful completion of the course I didn't actually have a job - that was the next hurdle. (On succesful completion you will have one.)
So - before going in for my final sim session my thought was: "If I fail this I've got no money, no home, no career - in short - I'm screwed!" No pressure - much!
Care to change your assessment of me?