Edinburgh-4

[A350Saltire]

Never said it was ... just saying pisa is dropped .. fairly simple to understand I think

Except I don’t think it has been.

As per SeanM on X:

https://x.com/seanm1997/status/1735277242698158513?s=46&t=lVdDSC8Rs3HZjZirllAO3Q

[GeorgeNTravels]

….still eagerly awaiting EK return. Do they still appear on the ACL report for NS24?
I've taken this from the DXB report as the EDI one is not public.

It doesn't show EDI as a cancelled destination, but suggests they aren't returning in S24.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/573x322/screenshot_2023_12_15_03_52_51_743_edit_com_android_chrome_1 0306991a3fe1021e209f390a614e8931f142255.jpg

[tartan 201]

I've taken this from the DXB report as the EDI one is not public.

It doesn't show EDI as a cancelled destination, but suggests they aren't returning in S24.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/573x322/screenshot_2023_12_15_03_52_51_743_edit_com_android_chrome_1 0306991a3fe1021e209f390a614e8931f142255.jpg
I'm not sure it does suggest that. As I understand the data, the changes shown are the data in the S24 Initial Coordinated Schedule as cleared on the 23rd October 2023 against the S24 Historical Schedule as cleared on 17 August 2023. I don't know what the historical schedule showed for any EK EDI service, but it could be surmised that it showed more than 241 movements, given that the subsequent initial coordinated schedule shows a reduction of 241 movements but EDI is not showing as a cancelled destination (implying that there must be one or more movements still in the schedule for that route).

There are 30 weeks in the S24 schedule, so a daily service operating throughout that period would represent 420 movements. A reduction of 241 movements from that would leave 180 movements, which equates to a daily service over 90 days (or a <daily service for more days). Working back 90 days from the end of the S24 season takes you to around the end of July. So the data you've shown could be interpreted to mean a return in August rather than no return at all. Two other observations: this (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35582063-post6.html) post suggests a possible EK return to EDI on the A350 in S24 and this (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/134256-emirates-expands-a350-order-book-first-now-due-in-mid-3q24) post states the first A350 is due in August 2024.

[SWBKCB]

Would you expect EK to launch a new route with a new type? Airlines normally put new types into main bases - though not to say the 350 couldn't displace another a/c to be used into EDI.

[nighthawk117]

I'm not sure if they will launch with an A350, however it's probably about the same size as a 777 so no point swapping aircraft around to upgrade an existing route. Regardless, I think its more than likely that once they start receiving deliveries of the A350 you will see a lot of expansion. They have 60 A350s on order, and also 35 787s due in 2025.

If it doesnt relaunch then I'd be shocked.

[tartan 201]

Would you expect EK to launch a new route with a new type? Airlines normally put new types into main bases - though not to say the 350 couldn't displace another a/c to be used into EDI.

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/emirates-a350-routes-adelaide

Emirates intends to begin flying its Airbus A350 to Australia in mid-2024, with Adelaide in line to be among the first destinations for the advanced jet.

The Gulf carrier confirms it is “in close discussions with Adelaide Airport” for the A350’s debut, which would also mark the restart of flights between Adelaide and Dubai since the route was canned in early 2020 with the onset of the pandemic.


Worth noting though that the DXB slot report lists the allocated slots for ADL as cancelled. Given they appear to have been considering it for being "among the first destinations" for the A350s, they clearly don't have an in-principle issue with resuming a route with a new aircraft type.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/573x486/screenshot_2023_12_15_112320_0e100752299cdeb5b6a6e5c0ae14e7b 58ed9c1da.jpg

[Asturias56]

SQ have been flying A350's to ADL for some time - its a very good fit for the traffic and the route

[HH6702]

I'm not sure it does suggest that. As I understand the data, the changes shown are the data in the S24 Initial Coordinated Schedule as cleared on the 23rd October 2023 against the S24 Historical Schedule as cleared on 17 August 2023. I don't know what the historical schedule showed for any EK EDI service, but it could be surmised that it showed more than 241 movements, given that the subsequent initial coordinated schedule shows a reduction of 241 movements but EDI is not showing as a cancelled destination (implying that there must be one or more movements still in the schedule for that route).

There are 30 weeks in the S24 schedule, so a daily service operating throughout that period would represent 420 movements. A reduction of 241 movements from that would leave 180 movements, which equates to a daily service over 90 days (or a <daily service for more days). Working back 90 days from the end of the S24 season takes you to around the end of July. So the data you've shown could be interpreted to mean a return in August rather than no return at all. Two other observations: this (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35582063-post6.html) post suggests a possible EK return to EDI on the A350 in S24 and this (https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/134256-emirates-expands-a350-order-book-first-now-due-in-mid-3q24) post states the first A350 is due in August 2024.


NCL -180 can someone explain what that means at Newcastle currently has a daily service and continues to be daily ?

[GeorgeNTravels]

Now that October CAA figures are out I've got the total percentage of seats filled on each route throughout the season.

For these calculations we have taken the figure from the ACL Start of Season report, then added together the monthly totals from the CAA to work out the load factors.

ALL LOADS ARE APPROXIMATE

Calgary - 91.21%
Toronto - 97.23%

Beijing - 64.39%

Cancun - 84.96%

Doha - 76.51%

Atlanta - 93.09%
Boston - 84.63%
Chicago - 89.08%
New York JFK - 89.03%
New York Newark - 79.51%
Orlando MCO - 75.75%
Orlando MLB - 83.21%
Washington - 92.14%

[tartan 201]

Are you sure about your DOH calculation? None of the monthly load factors I've seen for S24 have been below 85% and most have been about 95%.

[A350Saltire]

Are you sure about your DOH calculation? None of the monthly load factors I've seen for S24 have been below 85% and most have been about 95%.

Agreed. The DOH load factor is almost certainly wrong. It’s been constantly in the 90s.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Are you sure about your DOH calculation? None of the monthly load factors I've seen for S24 have been below 85% and most have been about 95%.
Based on our calculation method it's correct. I've put the ACL screenshot and out spreadsheet screenshot below.

As I say that's per our calculation method.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x258/screenshot_2023_12_15_19_34_00_272_edit_com_android_chrome_5 cb5aa5e867022c3195865394ccf41d1a4c36a30.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x771/screenshot_2023_12_15_19_35_03_436_edit_com_google_android_a pps_docs_editors_sheets_0bfb2ebc9fa64d3979675df9612b0c274dbc 2863.jpg

[SWBKCB]

Doesn't that depend on what aircraft type was used to determine the slot allocation and what turned up on the flights?

[Planeraz]

Doesn't that depend on what aircraft type was used to determine the slot allocation and what turned up on the flights?

Absolutely. The start of season report gave the anticipated number of seats for the season. In the case of QR, I recall on several occasions they adjusted or changed aircraft type, which potentially impacts or could result in an adjusted number of seats. Unexpected Cancelations won’t have been taken into account. They planned to operate 359’s with a higher pax capacity earlier than the actual December start date. A whole host of reasons why a planned start of season seat number could change.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Doesn't that depend on what aircraft type was used to determine the slot allocation and what turned up on the flights?

Absolutely.

I see this paragraph was lost on people."For these calculations we have taken the figure from the ACL Start of Season report, then added together the monthly totals from the CAA to work out the load factors."

I made it glaringly obvious how we calculated it but some people decided that despite being shown the actual numbers to complain anyway

[SWBKCB]

I see this paragraph was lost on people."For these calculations we have taken the figure from the ACL Start of Season report, then added together the monthly totals from the CAA to work out the load factors."

I made it glaringly obvious how we calculated it but some people decided that despite being shown the actual numbers to complain anyway

Not lost on me (I don't think!) - our posts crossed, I was responding to the point about 90% load factors.

Can't both answers be right e.g. if the seats available on the ACL report are based on the flights being op by 777, but the majority of flights are operated by something smaller, the load factor determined from trhe ACL figures will be different from the operational load factor.

[tartan 201]

Based on our calculation method it's correct. I've put the ACL screenshot and out spreadsheet screenshot below.

As I say that's per our calculation method.


The number of seats in the ACL report might not be what operated though, in which case calculating the load factor based on the ACL report isn't very illuminating. A more accurate and useful calculation could be done by looking at what actually operated based on the records here: Log Archive (http://www.egph.co.uk/Archive%20Logs.htm)

[SWBKCB]

The number of seats in the ACL report might not be what operated though, in which case calculating the load factor based on the ACL report isn't very illuminating. A more accurate and useful calculation could be done by looking at what actually operated based on the records here: Log Archive (http://www.egph.co.uk/Archive%20Logs.htm)

And even better would be the number of seats sold against those offered for sale.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Not lost on me (I don't think!) - our posts crossed, I was responding to the point about 90% load factors.

Can't both answers be right e.g. if the seats available on the ACL report are based on the flights being op by 777, but the majority of flights are operated by something smaller, the load factor determined from trhe ACL figures will be different from the operational load factor.

Apologies, your response was posted while I was writing my reply.

You are correct that both points can be correct. I'm on holiday so doing all the work from my phone.

I'll be flying back to EDI tomorrow

[inOban]

I noticed that the number of PAX to DOH was a few hundred more than the number using EK to DXB. Has this happened before?

[GeorgeNTravels]

I noticed that the number of PAX to DOH was a few hundred more than the number using EK to DXB. Has this happened before?

Not from what I've seen before, EK has always been ahead, sometimes only by a few hundred. I suspect a game of leapfrog has started until both carriers carriers confirm plans for next summer

[Rutan16]

​​​​​​Starts 10th June 2024, Days.136.

​​​​​​Appears to be A320 on the 10th thereafter all flights on A321

May well be a leased 320 as they generally confine their own to domestic and shorter regional sectors these days. Or its just a typo and should be a 32B (321 with older cabin fit)

[GoEDI]

The number of seats in the ACL report might not be what operated though, in which case calculating the load factor based on the ACL report isn't very illuminating. A more accurate and useful calculation could be done by looking at what actually operated based on the records here: Log Archive (http://www.egph.co.uk/Archive%20Logs.htm)

Agreed.

In the case of QR here, their slot application at the time of the SoS S23 report appears to be based on B789 ops all season. I don't even think the B789 was ever in the booking engine for S23, never mind operated. The correct seasonal average for S23 based on all B788 ops, as was on sale, is 93.4%

There will also be a discrepancy with EWR, as the slot application was 2x daily from week 6 of the season (8th May), but ops didn't actually commence until the 26th May. Hence, the correct LF will be higher in reality.

[Ekally1]

Agreed.

In the case of QR here, their slot application at the time of the SoS S23 report appears to be based on B789 ops all season. I don't even think the B789 was ever in the booking engine for S23, never mind operated. The correct seasonal average for S23 based on all B788 ops, as was on sale, is 93.4%

There will also be a discrepancy with EWR, as the slot application was 2x daily from week 6 of the season (8th May), but ops didn't actually commence until the 26th May. Hence, the correct LF will be higher in reality.


Or perhaps the figures are all correct and the above issue has been taken into account already 🤔

[Planeraz]

SeanM reporting new route from Eurowings.

Stuttgart - 3 x weekly from May 2024.

Good to see the Lufthansa group expanding to/from EDI. 3 routes now from EDI I believe.

[billyg]

Edinburgh Airport owners pick banks to take flight with £2.5bn sale | Business News | Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/headline-edinburgh-airport-owners-pick-banks-to-take-flight-with-16325bn-sale-13032909?fbclid=IwAR0UMsap3b0BeZw9NpCfVQix_u2CgHlns5btLjDS8q 0Zlkcz1xQb90rna6E) EDI for sale as predicted , be interesting to see what happens if GLA is for sale at the same time , for , presumably , a much lower asking price ?

[Planeraz]

Edinburgh Airport owners pick banks to take flight with £2.5bn sale | Business News | Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/headline-edinburgh-airport-owners-pick-banks-to-take-flight-with-16325bn-sale-13032909?fbclid=IwAR0UMsap3b0BeZw9NpCfVQix_u2CgHlns5btLjDS8q 0Zlkcz1xQb90rna6E) EDI for sale as predicted , be interesting to see what happens if GLA is for sale at the same time , for , presumably , a much lower asking price ?

Hopefully an infrastructure group or concern with deep pockets. Serious investment required for a substantial terminal expansion or new wing able to accommodate several wide-bodies at the same time.

[ATNotts]

Hopefully an infrastructure group or concern with deep pockets. Serious investment required for a substantial terminal expansion or new wing able to accommodate several wide-bodies at the same time.
Sadly its more likely to be a bunch of 'get rich quick' investors keen to extract the maximum return for the least possible investment.

No different to any other UK business these days.

[GrahamK]

SeanM reporting new route from Eurowings.

Stuttgart - 3 x weekly from May 2024.

Good to see the Lufthansa group expanding to/from EDI. 3 routes now from EDI I believe.
FRA, MUC, DUS, STR, CGN, ZRH? 6 LH group routes I make that? 🙃

[Sotonsean]

FRA, MUC, DUS, STR, CGN, ZRH? 6 LH group routes I make that? 🙃

Plus BRU which would make 7.

[chaps1954]

Turkish quite often show as A320 when it is not known which model of a321 is scheduled never actually turns up as A320 on MAN and BHX routes

[tictack67]

Turkish quite often show as A320 when it is not known which model of a321 is scheduled never actually turns up as A320 on MAN and BHX routes

Agreed. however the additional flight is also on an A321

[Planeraz]

FRA, MUC, DUS, STR, CGN, ZRH? 6 LH group routes I make that? 🙃

Agreed. I meant 3 routes with Eurowings.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Plus BRU which would make 7.

…and as SPD Travels points out Sun Express is 50%owned by LH so technically add Antalya to the LH Group routes from EDI….😉

[Planeraz]

…and as SPD Travels points out Sun Express is 50%owned by LH so technically add Antalya to the LH Group routes from EDI….😉

Does this make EDI a star alliance hub? 😂

[Sk1schoolsam]

Does this make EDI a star alliance hub? 😂

😅well when you add in United, Air Canada and SAS….😆

[tictack67]

😅well when you add in United, Air Canada and SAS….😆

and Turkish and Aegean also in Alliance as is Ethiopian Airlines....

[Planeraz]

and Turkish and Aegean also in Alliance as is Ethiopian Airlines....

As is Singapore Airlines. I’ve read in other feeds, EDI linked with Singapore. Not sure if this is realistic?

[Sotonsean]

😅well when you add in United, Air Canada and SAS….😆

SAS by Q2024 is expected to be more aligned with the airlines new partners AF/KL by moving to Skyteam.

[CraigJay]

As is Singapore Airlines. I’ve read in other feeds, EDI linked with Singapore. Not sure if this is realistic?
Would be very surprised if it happened in the near future, however, you won’t be waiting too long for Ethiopian.

[laviation]

The only form I could see SQ realistically come to EDI would be as a tag on to a fifth freedom flight - only two possible destination that comes to mind would be something like a 3 weekly SIN-EDI-DEN routing (although they may just want to add this as MAN expansion)

SIN-EDI-DUB or vice versa might work

[Planeraz]

Hainan S24

Route appears to have been loaded on system. First flight showing much earlier than 2023. 17th May. Initially 2 x weekly but increasing to 4 x weekly. Really good news if confirmed.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Would be very surprised if it happened in the near future, however, you won’t be waiting too long for Ethiopian.

Is Ethiopian a real possibility?

[nighthawk117]

Airlines CCO said in an interview with SimpleFlying that they were looking to expand in the UK, and begin flying to an airport "North of Manchester".

[GeorgeNTravels]

Hainan S24

Route appears to have been loaded on system. First flight showing much earlier than 2023. 17th May. Initially 2 x weekly but increasing to 4 x weekly. Really good news if confirmed.

Some of us had known since the early hours of this morning 😉

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x794/screenshot_2023_12_19_12_51_56_061_edit_com_twitter_android_ 094016e355109b8c580de28830d8aa44ddd580e2.jpg

[GayFriendly]

Ethiopian I think are all but a dead cert for EDI in the next 12-18 months although it's rumoured they're also looking at GLA as part of their 'UK expansion north of MAN'

[Planeraz]

Ethiopian I think are all but a dead cert for EDI in the next 12-18 months although it's rumoured they're also looking at GLA as part of their 'UK expansion north of MAN'

The Star alliance part must put EDI in a strong position ahead of GLA?

[GrahamK]

The Star alliance part must put EDI in a strong position ahead of GLA?
Don't think it makes much of a difference tbf. Depends on the target market I suppose

[Planeraz]

Don't think it makes much of a difference tbf. Depends on the target market I suppose

Reportedly strong demand from the UK to Africa via Addis Ababa. A 789 presumably could reach EDI. Other reports suggesting there could be a technical stop on the continent. It would certainly be quite a catch for any Scottish airport.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The Star alliance part must put EDI in a strong position ahead of GLA?
Commercially it has no relevance. It's not as if LH Group or United will be feeding Ethiopian via Scotland. Ethiopian are positioning themselves to be the carrier connecting Africa to the world, so if there's enough local traffic out of Scotland bound for Africa then they may well go after it. I mean LGW just bagged Singapore so all bets are off IMHO.

[tictack67]

Commercially it has no relevance. It's not as if LH Group or United will be feeding Ethiopian via Scotland. Ethiopian are positioning themselves to be the carrier connecting Africa to the world, so if there's enough local traffic out of Scotland bound for Africa then they may well go after it. I mean LGW just bagged Singapore so all bets are off IMHO.

Actually, in commercial terms to some extend it does of they were considering new destinations within 50 miles of each other.

Airline alliances aren't just about connections. it's about access to lounges, marketing, data, corporate accounts, alliance negotiated deals on ground handling rates, jet fuel buying rates.

So current Alliance partner users and airport fees will both be a factor, two airports so close to each other, with one having 8 Star alliance partners the other with one.

Airlines pay big money to be a part of an alliance
.
Amazing Edinburgh has Airlines from Star Alliance-(8) One World-(5) and skyteam (4)

[Planeraz]

Air Canada

Equipment change. Although subject to change, 789 currently showing as operating S24 season, replacing previously published 788.

[inOban]

Every day this week the airport has listed, for the following day, an Emirates flight from Dubai, arriving 13.00, dep 19.05. This remains on the website until around midnight when it is cancelled. Is this a glitch eg they have a slot at these times but the system hasn't been told to cancel? Or are they expecting a visit?

[Planeraz]

The updated S24 ACL details a few interesting things.

Play have allocated slots for a daily Reykjavik service. The rumour re a switch from Glasgow may well turn out to be correct.
Emirates have “allocated” slots for a daily service. This doesn’t guarantee a resumption but suggests that something may break re this one.
Qatar allocated slots suggest a 3 x daily service. Fantastic if this is confirmed.
United - increased seats. Earlier start than normal for the Washington service.
Hainan - increased frequency reported.
Iberia - increased frequency reported.
Ryanair - significant amount of growth across the market expected.

[A350Saltire]

The updated S24 ACL details a few interesting things.

Play have allocated slots for a daily Reykjavik service. The rumour re a switch from Glasgow may well turn out to be correct.
Emirates have “allocated” slots for a daily service. This doesn’t guarantee a resumption but suggests that something may break re this one.
Qatar allocated slots suggest a 3 x daily service. Fantastic if this is confirmed.
United - increased seats. Earlier start than normal for the Washington service.
Hainan - increased frequency reported.
Iberia - increased frequency reported.
Ryanair - significant amount of growth across the market expected.

Very interesting. Did I also see slots for an increased frequency on VS to MCO?

PLAY is an interesting one. Not sure about them but they’ve not had much success at GLA where you would think there would be demand given their lack of services to the US. They maybe feel EDI is more attractive prospect for them to sell. Will just have to wait and see.

[Planeraz]

Very interesting. Did I also see slots for an increased frequency on VS to MCO?

PLAY is an interesting one. Not sure about them but they’ve not had much success at GLA where you would think there would be demand given their lack of services to the US. They maybe feel EDI is more attractive prospect for them to sell. Will just have to wait and see.


Not sure what to make of the reported VS frequency increase. Number of seats appears to remain the same. We know that they are expected to resume much earlier in 2024 compared to 2023. This would suggest an increase in seats if the season runs to end of October 24, as was the case in 2023.

The updated report is mostly good news. However, disappointing to note fairly significant drop in seats planned by Turkish, Scandinavian and Air France. This can obviously change, dependant on forward bookings etc.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Very interesting. Did I also see slots for an increased frequency on VS to MCO?

PLAY is an interesting one. Not sure about them but they’ve not had much success at GLA where you would think there would be demand given their lack of services to the US. They maybe feel EDI is more attractive prospect for them to sell. Will just have to wait and see.

The only thing I would say about PLAY is what would they really add to EDI? Yes more seats to Keflavik, but outside of that their North American destinations are BWI (Fair it isn't served direct), BOS (served daily by DL, a more attractive option for Americans), SWF (A poor choice compared to 2x UA and 1x DL and 1x B6), IAD (served longer and daily by UA) and YHM (a poor second choice to daily AC and 4x WS).

Not saying it isn't a welcome addition for EDI, but unless the price is right will it be attractive?

[SWBKCB]

The updated S24 ACL details a few interesting things.

Play have allocated slots for a daily Reykjavik service. The rumour re a switch from Glasgow may well turn out to be correct.
Emirates have “allocated” slots for a daily service. This doesn’t guarantee a resumption but suggests that something may break re this one.
Qatar allocated slots suggest a 3 x daily service. Fantastic if this is confirmed.
United - increased seats. Earlier start than normal for the Washington service.
Hainan - increased frequency reported.
Iberia - increased frequency reported.
Ryanair - significant amount of growth across the market expected.

If these are to operate summer 24, wouldn't you expect them to be on sale by now?

[GayFriendly]

Whilst I would not be surprised if Play and additional QR come to fruition, both these airlines appear to be serial slot applies.

Both have applied for daily slots at my local BHX (Play new, QR for second daily) since 2022 and neither has happened. As i said, not saying it wont happen at EDI.....and agree with comments made re: Play and their North American connections, not sure they will be that attractive given the range of TATL non.stops

[tictack67]

The updated report is mostly good news. However, disappointing to note fairly significant drop in seats planned by Turkish, Scandinavian and Air France. This can obviously change, dependant on forward bookings etc.

Whist the timetable shows Turkish as A320, the seat maps are all loaded as A321. Is this the assumption of a reduction in seats?

Air France are going 3 daily so 21 services a week ack it's on an E190. In fact peak summer 24, Edi to CDG/ORY/BVA will ve 45 services a week. (AF-21, Ezy-14, TV-5, FR-4)

Lufthansa going 3 daily also 21 services a week. (2 x A321 and a nightstopping A320) as well as their STR,CGN and MUC

[GeorgeNTravels]

Whist the timetable shows Turkish as A320, the seat maps are all loaded as A321. Is this the assumption of a reduction in seats?

Air France are going 3 daily so 21 services a week ack it's on an E190. In fact peak summer 24, Edi to CDG/ORY/BVA will ve 45 services a week. (AF-21, Ezy-14, TV-5, FR-4)

Lufthansa going 3 daily also 21 services a week. (2 x A321 and a nightstopping A320) as well as their STR,CGN and MUC

There have been some mistakes in other reports, LCY for example had Ryanair in it, not sure if it's been fixed.

[nighthawk117]

I saw an article online on New Years Day stating Play were dropping Glasgow, with the last flight due to operate 2nd January. They quoted Sean M as breaking the news on Twitter, but the provided link didnt seem to go to a tweet, but just his random feed, so I assume he deleted it?

Are they still operating to Glasgow now?

[CabinCrewe]

I saw an article online on New Years Day stating Play were dropping Glasgow, with the last flight due to operate 2nd January. They quoted Sean M as breaking the news on Twitter, but the provided link didnt seem to go to a tweet, but just his random feed, so I assume he deleted it?

Are they still operating to Glasgow now?
It was planned as Seasonal until end of Christmas period. Given FI loaded their schedule with 767-300’s to protect their turf, I suspect Play have been hounded out. They can maybe try their match against EZY at EDI, though hard to know if they’re after low cost point to point or US transfer which may not be needed at EDI. Can’t get feel if their basket case style op or not.

[A350Saltire]

It was planned as Seasonal until end of Christmas period. Given FI loaded their schedule with 767-300’s to protect their turf, I suspect Play have been hounded out. They can maybe try their match against EZY at EDI, though hard to know if they’re after low cost point to point or US transfer which may not be needed at EDI. Can’t get feel if their basket case style op or not.

I think they are similar to Wizz, chopping and changing all the time. Will see soon but I’m not too fussed about them tbh.

[Planeraz]

I think they are similar to Wizz, chopping and changing all the time. Will see soon but I’m not too fussed about them tbh.

Have Play indentified a gap in the market? Both for point to point and transfer pax. EZY in Apr, May and three weeks in June have 3 x weekly currently on sale. They drop to 2 x weekly at end of June and in July and August before increasing again in September. Play have slots for a daily service, potentially taking advantage of peak summer travel to/from Scotland and Icelandic tourists , who have similar summer travel trends. Two big caveats of course. No guarantee Play will start and EZY could easily increase frequency to hound them out.

[Sk1schoolsam]

I saw an article online on New Years Day stating Play were dropping Glasgow, with the last flight due to operate 2nd January. They quoted Sean M as breaking the news on Twitter, but the provided link didnt seem to go to a tweet, but just his random feed, so I assume he deleted it?

Are they still operating to Glasgow now?

Not according to there booking system

[Breathe]

Interview with Gordon Dewar. He mainly talks about SAF, but he also talks about potential destinations, US pre-clearance and the road link from the roundabout at Gogar.

https://archive.is/wt87W

Dewar expects Edinburgh this year to exceed its pre-Covid passenger numbers of 14.7 million in 2019.

He also highlighted the potential for more long-haul connections in the coming years.

He said North American demand continued to be strong and underpinned the airport’s ambition of becoming a pre-clearance facility for United States customs.

Dewar said airlines were “clamouring” for that, which would place Edinburgh alongside Dublin and Shannon as allowing people and goods to be cleared prior to entering the US.

He said: “We have to get the two countries to sign the agreement and there seems to be a real growing understanding of how beneficial that would be. It just needs a bit of will to get in a room and sign off the final details.”

Dewar also sees potential from Asia in the years ahead and said: “We know for a fact that economically there is room for at least three or four Chinese connections but you have to persuade people to do it.

“We have not got a foothold yet in India and that is massive. There have been no Indian carriers looking at European expansion or if they did it was towards the main hubs but that is changing.

“Then there is Kuala Lumpur and Singapore, which are a bit further away, mostly because of airline strategy rather than lack of demand.”

Dewar is also hopeful progress can be made this year on creating a road link to the airport from the Gogar area.

[Rutan16]

Interview with Gordon Dewar. He mainly talks about SAF, but he also talks about potential destinations, US pre-clearance and the road link from the roundabout at Gogar.

https://archive.is/wt87W

Nice fluff piece that says nothing nor does it provide any incite into very significant and pressing structural issues facing the airport especially if further substantial expansions are to be accommodated in the coming years.

Indeed I’d suggest it’s targeted towards potential buyers and investors in the airport itself.

We do know the current owners want out before those pending and very significant costs and associated financing becomes not just pressing and manageable more rather critically necessary.

As for a nice chat over a coffee and doughnut and a quick yeah, pre clearance will be a sight more difficult and require high level inter governmental involvement. Who will pay for the US agents where would the border fit into an already cramped and barely fit for purpose terminal today.

Is it really even necessary as we move towards more electronic border measures in the UK , EU and indeed in the US in the next few years personally I think not to be honest .

I do agree with his comments re India however - Air India currently has a near fetish approach with moving Microsoft Script kiddies to Silicon Valley and via existing hubs to look after your company servers ( cheaply) in advance of other opportunities right now .

Birmingham is an exception I acknowledge that.

Other Indian carriers such as Indigo and Spicejet don’t exactly deliver confidence ( both have weak finances and even poorer management) . Indeed the later has been involved in some pretty dodgy trading practices!

[GeorgeNTravels]

NEW AGA - 2 weekly
ALC - 7 weekly
BCN - 8 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rise to 10 weekly in JUNE
BRI - 2 weekly
BFS - 13 weekly
BER - 8 weekly
BZR - 2 weekly (currently set to commence in JUNE)
BLL - 3 weekly in APRIL and MAY rise to 4 weekly in JUNE
BLQ - 3 weekly
BOD - 4 weekly
BOH - 4 weekly
BTS - 2 weekly
CRL - 9 weekly in APRIL and MAY rise to 10 weekly in JUNE
OTP - 2 weekly
BUD - 6 weekly APRIL and MAY, rise to 7 weekly in JUNE
CCF - CUT
CPH - 9 weekly
CFU - 1 weekly (currently not loaded in APRIL and MAY)
ORK - 7 weekly (originally loaded at 10 weekly)
DUB - 32 weekly
NRN - 6 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 7 weekly in JUNE
EIN - 2 weekly
FAO - 5 weekly (originally loaded at 8 weekly)
FUE - 2 weekly
GDN - 5 weekly
LPA - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
GOT - 2 weekly
HAM - 4 weekly (originally loaded at 5 weekly)
IBZ - 2 weekly
KUN - 2 weekly
NOC - 2 weekly (originally loaded at 3 weekly)
KRK - 5 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 6 weekly in JUNE (originaly loaded at 6/5)
ACE - 4 weekly
LIS - 3 weekly
STN - 21 weekly (originally loaded at 17 weekly)
MAD - 5 weekly
AGP - 6 weekly
MLA - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
RAK - 2 weekly
MRS - 4 weekly
BGY - 6 weekly
NTE - 2 weekly
NAP - 3 weekly
NQY - 2 weekly
FNI - CUT
PMO - CURRENTLY NOT LOADED
PMI - 8 weekly
BVA - 4 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 5 weekly in JUNE
PSA - 4 weekly
PIS - 2 weekly
OPO - 3 weekly
POZ - 2 weekly (originally loaded at 3 weekly)
PRG - 5 weekly
RHO - 2 weekly
RIX - 4 weekly
CIA - 7 weekly
SDR - 2 weekly
SCQ -CUT
SVQ - 3 weekly
SNN - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
SOF - 3 weekly
TFS - 5 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 6 weekly in JUNE
TIA - 2 weekly (originally loaded at 3 weekly)
TLS - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
TRN - CUT
VLC - 2 weekly
VCE - 3 weekly
VIE - 3 weekly
WMI - CURRENTLY NOT LOADED (they hold slots for EDI-WAW this winter so may transfer)
WRO - 2 weekly
ZAD - 2 weekly


Summary of Changes

AGA new at 2x week
ORK and FAO reduced by 3 weekly
HAM, NOC, KRK, POZ, TIA reduced by 1 weekly (It is possible that based a/c at EDI will operate Warsaw rather than BUZZ), WMI was 5 weekly, this clears 5 separate days to operate a Warsaw flight to either WAW or WMI
STN up by 4 weekly
BGY will remain at 6 weekly rather than increase to 7 weekly.

[Planeraz]

Airport Sale

An updated article from simply flying. We already know about the owners intention to sell. Some interesting information however. Specific reference made about American Airlines returning. Have AA changed their mind or is aircraft now going to be available to operate, presumably from PHL? This could of course be a mistake on the part of the author or they have been tipped off about an iminent announcement.

https://simpleflying.com/why-edinburgh-airport-is-worth-3-billion/

[martin102]

Another pothole today. Runway closed for a short time with 2 diversions to Glasgow.

[nighthawk117]

It's an interesting overview of what is happening in terms of new routes. Maybe reading too much in to it, but it seems to kill off the idea of Singapore announcing flights next year. It suggests the demand is there, but the airline isnt really looking at places like Edinburgh.

No mention of Emirates - again maybe over reading here, but does that suggest an announcement is imminent? If not surely he would have mentioned attempts to re-attract them or otherwise increase capacity to the Middle East. Surely that and North America are the key areas of growth for long haul?

[Rutan16]

Airport Sale

An updated article from simply flying. We already know about the owners intention to sell. Some interesting information however. Specific reference made about American Airlines returning. Have AA changed their mind or is aircraft now going to be available to operate, presumably from PHL? This could of course be a mistake on the part of the author or they have been tipped off about an iminent announcement.

https://simpleflying.com/why-edinburgh-airport-is-worth-3-billion/
Might be wrong however I think the reporter has misinterpreted the interviewees comments and American Airlines just referred to the generality (ie Delta, United ) rather than American Airlines Group Inc….

[Planeraz]

Might be wrong however I think the reporter has misinterpreted the interviewees comments and American Airlines just referred to the generality (ie Delta, United ) rather than American Airlines Group Inc….

I’m also sceptical about the comments. That said, I believe I’m correct to say that AA’s suspension of services to Tel Aviv has been further extended. They are offering services to TLV via LHR with BA. This could free up wide-body aircraft from DFW, JFK and MIA. From a PR point of view alone, it would be great to have the world’s largest airline by fleet size back at EDI.

[Rutan16]

I’m also sceptical about the comments. That said, I believe I’m correct to say that AA’s suspension of services to Tel Aviv has been further extended. They are offering services to TLV via LHR with BA. This could free up wide-body aircraft from DFW, JFK and MIA. From a PR point of view alone, it would be great to have the world’s largest airline by fleet size back at EDI.

BA aren’t flying into Tel Aviv either right now . In fact the only European carrier to officially announce an intention to resume is Lufthansa

Aside and not really relevant to UK news , something you might find interesting re Tel Aviv is Flydubai, Etihad and Wizz Abu Dhabi continue to operate, whilst all the European and US carriers have suspended operations.

[Planeraz]

BA aren’t flying into Tel Aviv either right now . In fact the only European carrier to officially announce an intention to resume is Lufthansa

Aside and not really relevant to UK news , something you might find interesting re Tel Aviv is Flydubai, Etihad and Wizz Abu Dhabi continue to operate, whilst all the European and US carriers have suspended operations.

BA planning to resume services to TLV - 2 Feb. Flights currently on sale. Of course, this could change at short notice. With Israeli's free to travel, presumably, some demand still exists. Cargo returns will also be lucrative for the airlines you referenced.

[Ekally1]

I’m also sceptical about the comments. That said, I believe I’m correct to say that AA’s suspension of services to Tel Aviv has been further extended. They are offering services to TLV via LHR with BA. This could free up wide-body aircraft from DFW, JFK and MIA. From a PR point of view alone, it would be great to have the world’s largest airline by fleet size back at EDI.

AA more likely to use A/C on more lucrative multiple domestic rotations until TLV restarts than send a piece of metal to EDI ..

[CabinCrewe]

more lucrative multiple domestic rotations
What are the figures on profits for both?

[NotanAVGeek]

Heard a rumour of a June start for EK & AA, I say rumour as I don’t want to sound silly if it’s not true. But a friend who is quite reliable within the handling agent has advised me.

Would be good if it does come to fruition but I’d have thought they’d be on sale by now if that was the case.

[ld0595]

How much more capacity does the terminal have to accommodate extra widebodies? It's absolutely rammed in the summer - especially morning to early afternoon which is presumably when AA would arrive and leave. EK would be easier if they took an evening slot I suppose.

[Planeraz]

How much more capacity does the terminal have to accommodate extra widebodies? It's absolutely rammed in the summer - especially morning to early afternoon which is presumably when AA would arrive and leave. EK would be easier if they took an evening slot I suppose.

A financial and logistical problem for a new owner to solve…

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I was in and out of Lisbon last month, and it's worth mentioning that although they're bigger than EDI but have the same problems of long haul peak creating pain points for parking. And they bus, every day. There's about 6 contact gates for heavies 141-146 and the rest is Schengen gates for narrow bodies, and LIS has waay more long haul than EDI with TAP having a based fleet of A330s. They also have Air Canada, American, Delta, United, Etihad and Emirates. The US airlines seem to do their fair share of bussing, they have to, it is what it is and it's not the end of the world and no one's holiday is ruined. And this was off peak December, it is of couse way busier in summer.
So is there really an ROI to do what we'd all love to see, or should they be more realistic and work around the pain points with some decent remote gates and a well oiled bussing machine?

[Breathe]

Heard a rumour of a June start for EK & AA, I say rumour as I don’t want to sound silly if it’s not true. But a friend who is quite reliable within the handling agent has advised me.

Would be good if it does come to fruition but I’d have thought they’d be on sale by now if that was the case.
EK I could see happen, although I would have thought that getting the 2nd flight at GLA would be priority for them though?

AA would be a surprise. I thought the general consensus was that AA didn't have the right sized plane for EDI and would have to wait until the A321XLR before considering to launch flights again to PHL. There was a rumour that someone posted that DFW might launch. I suppose if AA have done their homework and have a spare 787 to launch the route (as this is the only aircraft in AA's current fleet that you would imagine to be feasible to fly to EDI), that could happen? it would certainly be a unique differentiator from the US carriers who primarily fly to East coast destinations. Also it would be feeding into AA's huge home hub.

We'll find out enough if either or both of these airlines return this summer.

[Planeraz]

EK I could see happen, although I would have thought that getting the 2nd flight at GLA would be priority for them though?

AA would be a surprise. I thought the general consensus was that AA didn't have the right sized plane for EDI and would have to wait until the A321XLR before considering to launch flights again to PHL. There was a rumour that someone posted that DFW might launch. I suppose if AA have done their homework and have a spare 787 to launch the route (as this is the only aircraft in AA's current fleet that you would imagine to be feasible to fly to EDI), that could happen? it would certainly be a unique differentiator from the US carriers who primarily fly to East coast destinations. Also it would be feeding into AA's huge home hub.

We'll find out enough if either or both of these airlines return this summer.

Is their a bit of “cat and mouse” going on here? Qatar hold slots for a 3 x daily service. They haven’t confirmed this to date as far as I’m aware. Are they waiting to see if EK confirm a resumption from EDI before making a firm decision re the third service? Demand by all accounts remains very strong to/from EDI. However, would up to 4 x wide-body daily departures/arrivals be over-kill? Add to this TK who continue to perform very strongly. The last few days alone, inbound flights from IST have been or are full. The PIA code-share I’m told is drawing in valuable business from that part of the world.

[inOban]

TK also have secured rights for a lot of flights to several Australian cities

[CabinCrewe]

TK also have secured rights for a lot of flights to several Australian cities
Though the appeal of two stops will be minimal as I understand they will not be direct from IST to eg MEL with an additional stop.

[NotanAVGeek]

Was led to believe the EK resumption should it happen be a 7 hour turnaround. 1905 departure.

Perhaps it’d occupy the same stand Hainan has in the morning for a long period of time.

I know stand 12 can be used but QR have refused that in the past and would rather hold another 20-30 min for a better stand.

[inOban]

Those are the timings which mysteriously appeared on the EDI arrival and departure pages every day last week (post #2053)

[Planeraz]

New Owner

Speculation of course, but could EDI have a Spanish owner in the near future?



https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/spains-aena-considers-buying-edinburgh-airport-expansion-reports-2024-01-11/

[SWBKCB]

Will Lorraine Chase be coming out of retirement?

[willy wombat]

Though the appeal of two stops will be minimal as I understand they will not be direct from IST to eg MEL with an additional stop.
it’s not that long ago that two stops to Oz was considered state of the art (perhaps the younger posters on here don’t remember that). If TK offered a good deal on far east stop overs their offer could be competitive, at least to the leisure market.

[tartan 201]

New Owner

Speculation of course, but could EDI have a Spanish owner in the near future?



https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/spains-aena-considers-buying-edinburgh-airport-expansion-reports-2024-01-11/

The source article for Reuters' article is below (in Spanish):
​​​​https://www.expansion.com/empresas/transporte/2024/01/10/659f11fd468aeb95078b458e.html

The key part says:

​​​​​​Según explican fuentes que participan en el proceso de venta, la estrategia de GIP consiste en unas negociaciones bilaterales con uno de los principales operadores aeroportuarios mundiales, que no es Aena. En 2018, GIP ya vendió una participación mayoritaria de Gatwick, el segundo aeropuerto de Londres, a la francesa Vinci, aunque hoy mantiene una pequeña participación.Las conversaciones actuales sobre Edimburgo deberían terminar este mismo enero y la empresa española entraría en liza en el caso de que fracasara el proceso abierto.
​​​​​​
​​
​​​​​​My Spanish is poor to non-existent, but I think that says something along the lines of GIP is currently having bilateral discussions with one of the world's major airport operators (not Aena) about the sale of Edinburgh. Those discussions should end at the end of this month and Aena will then enter the process should the current talks fail.

[Planeraz]

The source article for Reuters' article is below (in Spanish):
​​​​https://www.expansion.com/empresas/transporte/2024/01/10/659f11fd468aeb95078b458e.html

The key part says:


​​
​​​​​​My Spanish is poor to non-existent, but I think that says something along the lines of GIP is currently having bilateral discussions with one of the world's major airport operators (not Aena) about the sale of Edinburgh. Those discussions should end at the end of this month and Aena will then enter the process should the current talks fail.

Speculation really is the key word here isn’t it? Vinci is the name that comes to mind when thinking about possible interested parties. Aena is the largest airport owner/operator in the world, so it could be a waiting game on their part. Rumoured Qatari interest also to bear in mind. If the articles are to be believed, a sale could go through fairly quickly, subject to the normal due diligence.

[GoEDI]

Was led to believe the EK resumption should it happen be a 7 hour turnaround. 1905 departure.

Perhaps it’d occupy the same stand Hainan has in the morning for a long period of time.

I know stand 12 can be used but QR have refused that in the past and would rather hold another 20-30 min for a better stand.

They have held slots for that schedule for the past 2 or 3 seasons now, it is just a carbon copy of what they used to operate before they stopped. I don't know what they're up to... slot sitting at DXB perhaps. Who knows if they are any closer to actually operating them this year, although I'm sure it'll happen at some point.

[CabinCrewe]

if it was a toss up between having EK or Hainan, I think I know who I would have been courting…

[inOban]

I believe that Aena operates Luton on behalf of the Council.

What worries me about about any takeover is that the purchaser will spend so much buying it that they won't have any money left to build anything more than small enhancements.

[tictack67]

I believe that Aena operates Luton on behalf of the Council.

What worries me about about any takeover is that the purchaser will spend so much buying it that they won't have any money left to build anything more than small enhancements.

If a business is spending £2.5 Billion on an asset rest assured they will have done due diligence and multiple site visits and inspections, especially if they are a current airport operator.

[nighthawk117]

To an extent that will be holding the price down. If infrastructure was well built and had the potential to easily handle any expansion, you'd get a much higher price for the airport. Anyone looking to buy will be put off by how much they would need to invest to boost flights and recoup their investment.

[inOban]

One would hope so but the experience of modern, debt-financed multinational companies is not encouraging. They will be looking for quick income to pay the interest on their borrowings.

[Planeraz]

From a business/profit point of view, any new owner, it goes without saying, would look to grow the business, streamline operations and maximise profits. In the case of EDI, the business is probably ticking along quite nicely right now. Pax number growing again and major airlines expanding services. The current owners however either don’t want to invest any more substantial amounts of cash or they don’t have the resources required. They clearly are looking to cash out as soon as possible. Expanding or adding to the existing long haul portfolio is key in my opinion. The current CEO in a very recent interview said as much. A couple of very large and as yet largely un-tapped markets exist. These being the Indian sub continent and Chinese/Asian markets. This leads again to the current infrastructure. Investment of high hundreds of millions or more would be required to create genuine expansion. Just adding bits and pieces over a decade for example to the current terminal isn’t good enough. Attracting high end retailers, like you see in major airports would generate valuable income. A new owner with genuine intentions to expand or grow the business will recognise this. Vinci have been mentioned along with Aena. They, reportedly are sitting behind the scenes waiting to see what/if anything transpires with the reported ongoing negotiations with another party. A Qatari based org is also rumoured to be interested in the business. Would be great news for QR. Guaranteed mates landing/operations rates…

[ATNotts]

Planeraz,

No.1 priority is usually maximising profit which generally squeezing quarts into pint pots. Longtermism tends not to be a high priority these days which is a shame as infrastructure needs a long term view.

[willy wombat]

Surely the Indian sub continent and Asian markets are ar least in part served by QR, TK, KL, BA etc over their hubs.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Surely the Indian sub continent and Asian markets are ar least in part served by QR, TK, KL, BA etc over their hubs.

Yes, BA in particular are very big on Indian routes, standing in domestic arrivals in either EDI or GLA and seeing the amount of bags tagged from an Indian airport can be a sight to see, you dont think 15 large suitcases can fit in a fiat punto, but determination makes it work

[tartan 201]

Wonder if this will affect any sale:

https://scottishfinancialreview.com/2024/01/12/edinburgh-airport-owner-gip-bought-by-blackrock/

[Planeraz]

Wonder if this will affect any sale:

https://scottishfinancialreview.com/2024/01/12/edinburgh-airport-owner-gip-bought-by-blackrock/

Could be a game changer. EDI effectively an asset of BR. One of its stated aims is to invest in large infrastructure projects like airports.

[tictack67]

Could be a game changer. EDI effectively an asset of BR. One of its stated aims is to invest in large infrastructure projects like airports.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x2000/screenshot_20240112_175040_4deb80db80a2392dcfdc860e580d245b4 644aaa2.png

Blackrock also own in shares circa 6% of Delta, United, American, Alaskan Airlines and Southwest.

[Planeraz]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x2000/screenshot_20240112_175040_4deb80db80a2392dcfdc860e580d245b4 644aaa2.png

Blackrock also own in shares circa 6% of Delta, United, American, Alaskan Airlines and Southwest.

Should Blackrock retain EDI, presumably, airlines such as Delta and United could benefit commercially re landing fees etc and the airport may have easier access to the right people for further route developments.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Should Blackrock retain EDI, presumably, airlines such as Delta and United could benefit commercially re landing fees etc and the airport may have easier access to the right people for further route developments.

Wouldn't that be illegal under competition laws in the UK? Unless, of course it was applied to all airlines.

[Ekally1]

Wouldn't that be illegal under competition laws in the UK? Unless, of course it was applied to all airlines.
indeed it's illegal

[ATNotts]

Should Blackrock retain EDI, presumably, airlines such as Delta and United could benefit commercially re landing fees etc and the airport may have easier access to the right people for further route developments.
The shareholdings are insignificant and Blackrock will exert no pressure on the business managers of airlines in which they invest. Blackrock are interested in one thing and one thing only; returning value for their investor clients which will include many of the pension funds in which our old age are invested.

They will spend money on development only if they see an adequate return on that investment in a timescale that works for their clients.

Personally I would prefer public investment in infrastructure but that isn't the way we do things these days unless of course where road building is concerned.

[tictack67]

indeed it's illegal

Not if done as a deal negotiation for a new route, see Ryanair.

[tictack67]

The shareholdings are insignificant

Blackrock is the 2nd largest institutional Investor in Delta, I think the 6th in American and 8th in United.

Blackrock's Delta shares are worth over 1 billion Us Dollars.

[tictack67]

Yes, BA in particular are very big on Indian routes, standing in domestic arrivals in either EDI or GLA and seeing the amount of bags tagged from an Indian airport can be a sight to see, you dont think 15 large suitcases can fit in a fiat punto, but determination makes it work

How can you tell where a bag is tagged from?

as we know it shows the final then any connecting airport but not the originating airport.

[GeorgeNTravels]

How can you tell where a bag is tagged from?

as we know it shows the final then any connecting airport but not the originating airport.

Most show flight numbers and a quick flightradar search reveals all.

[tictack67]

Most show flight numbers and a quick flightradar search reveals all.

Impressive whilst looking out for your own luggage and checking up on flight radar, you should be a customs officer

[ATNotts]

Blackrock is the 2nd largest institutional Investor in Delta, I think the 6th in American and 8th in United.

Blackrock's Delta shares are worth over 1 billion Us Dollars.
Unless I am reading incorrectly thats a very big number but a very small %age of the total shares.

[tictack67]

Unless I am reading incorrectly thats a very big number but a very small %age of the total shares.

Ues you are, focus on the 38 million shares they hold. Delta shares are scattered to the four winds, to get consensus requires the likes of blackrock and Vanguard (11%) most pensions holding only have 2%

[GeorgeNTravels]

Impressive whilst looking out for your own luggage and checking up on flight radar, you should be a customs officer
Didn't say I was waiting for my bag, you should be a politician.

In some cases it's as simple as sitting across from somebody who has bags as they wait for a lift or a bus.

[Asturias56]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67944481

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/838x616/edinburgh_airport8_1f2d39f0f6b450fd727f4882fc2aa47600a6dd2d. jpgA £2bn development with 7,000 homes as well as shops, schools, social and medical facilities is being planned for a site near Edinburgh Airport.

If planning permission is granted, West Town will span 205 acres between Gogar Roundabout and Ingliston Park and Ride. It is described as the single biggest homes-led development in Edinburgh in modern times. The development is designed so residents could live there without needing a car. Developers said the site would also have 27 acres of parks and a network of cycle, running and walking tracks. The West Town Edinburgh consortium, which is behind the plan, was formed in April 2021 by Drum Property Group.

[inOban]

For anyone not familiar with the area, the line which bisects the site is the tram which will get an extra stop. The existing P&R stop is in the bottom right of the picture and the runway is the old one which is disused.

[Asturias56]

my immediate thought was another 7000 possible complainants about aircraft noise!

[willy wombat]

For anyone not familiar with the area, the line which bisects the site is the tram which will get an extra stop. The existing P&R stop is in the bottom right of the picture and the runway is the old one which is disused.
thanks for the orientation. I can see what I assume is Arthur’s Seat but I wasn’t quite sure where the planned development was. I don’t see that as being particularly affected by airport flyover noise but it’s amazing how far the sideline noise, take off and reverse thrust, travels at night.

[SWBKCB]

You can see part of the old GA area bottom left in the illustration below.

If you look at this link, I think the development is basically under the table bottom right - anything taxying to the 300 stands etc will be very close.

https://nats-uk.ead-it.com/cms-nats/export/sites/default/en/Publications/AIP/Current-AIRAC/graphics/321387.pdf

[ericlday]

my immediate thought was another 7000 possible complainants about aircraft noise!
The Airport was there when they purchase their new residences so they must know what to expect......

[ATNotts]

The Airport was there when they purchase their new residences so they must know what to expect......
Has that ever stopped a 'retrospective NIMBY'?

[Asturias56]

The Airport was there when they purchase their new residences so they must know what to expect......

As Notts says that's never stopped anyone - and of course it really reduces the amount of space available for any airport expansion

[edi_local]

As Notts says that's never stopped anyone - and of course it really reduces the amount of space available for any airport expansion

This is my main concern. EDI is already a very busy airport for its size and clearly needs expanding both ramp and terminal-wise...yet the people in charge seem happy to sell vast swathes of land and cram it in even more.

I do wish the Highland showground had relocated to this area instead of houses, it would have been ideal, with new roads being built to serve both facilities, as well as a dedicated tram stop for the RHSG, freeing up a huge area for the airport to make use of in the future and creating a modern venue for the Highland Show. Sadly it has not worked out this way and with even more houses now also being built on the other side of Glasgow Road, there is simply nowhere left in the area.

[Planeraz]

This is my main concern. EDI is already a very busy airport for its size and clearly needs expanding both ramp and terminal-wise...yet the people in charge seem happy to sell vast swathes of land and cram it in even more.

I do wish the Highland showground had relocated to this area instead of houses, it would have been ideal, with new roads being built to serve both facilities, as well as a dedicated tram stop for the RHSG, freeing up a huge area for the airport to make use of in the future and creating a modern venue for the Highland Show. Sadly it has not worked out this way and with even more houses now also being built on the other side of Glasgow Road, there is simply nowhere left in the area.

With what appears to be a done deal, subject to all the normal pre contract stuff, GIP, according to various reports will retain day to day control and management of the airport. Blackrock (the owner) will be responsible for any significant expenditure decisions and expansion. Regarding the possible limitations and remaining ground for any terminal expansion, presumably, BR could attempt to negotiate a deal to purchase RHS land. This would open up a large amount of estate to build on. The other option, which I’ve heard a few people from within EDI mention when using the airport each week is adding air bridges to the existing pier. This could create at least four more wide body capable stands. Adding air bridges should be simple. The likelihood is another floor or level to the terminal would be required to channel pax from arriving int flights. The creation of previously reported gate rooms would also be easy to create on the pier.

[tartan 201]

With what appears to be a done deal, subject to all the normal pre contract stuff, GIP, according to various reports will retain day to day control and management of the airport. Blackrock (the owner) will be responsible for any significant expenditure decisions and expansion.

Does the above mean that GIP are no longer selling EDI as a standalone asset?

[Planeraz]

Does the above mean that GIP are no longer selling EDI as a standalone asset?

This is what I interpret, having read a few reports. I assume Blackrock as the owner in waiting of GIP could if they wanted to sell the asset (EDI) at some point.

[VickersVicount]

GIP, according to various reports will retain day to day control and management of the airport.
What reports are these, for us all to read.

[inOban]

My interpretation is that the team who created GIP are taking over the operation of all Blackrock's infrastructure assets. A lot of Blackrock's money comes from pension funds who are just about the only source of long-term funding and also require a steady income stream to pay pensions when the holders retire which is why so many of them have invested in our regulated industries. This may turn out good for EDI and LGW

[A350Saltire]

https://www.scottishfinancialnews.com/articles/blackrock-to-take-ownership-of-edinburgh-airport-as-part-of-wider-ps943bn-deal

A few reports out now on the takeover of GIP by BlackRock.

[Breathe]

My interpretation is that the team who created GIP are taking over the operation of all Blackstone's infrastructure assets. A lot of Blackstone's money comes from pension funds who are just about the only source of long-term funding and also require a steady income stream to pay pensions when the holders retire which is why so many of them have invested in our regulated industries. This may turn out good for EDI and LGW
I assume you meant BlackRock and not Blackstone?

[inOban]

corrected thanks

[Donkey497]

So how did we all miss this?
Passenger dies after fall at EDI (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-67992984)

[VickersVicount]

corrected thanks
Lets hope its nothing like GreyBull…

[4eyed anorak]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/news/136259-klm-to-debut-a321neo-ops-in-mid-3q23

Looks like EDI will be seeing the new KLM 321 in October this year.

[tartan 201]

Interesting numbers. The only point to make is that you can still lose money flying at 100% load factors if the yields are on the floor. I was led to believe that at least one of the above routes is not in a good place for that very reason.

I agree. It will be interesting. I suspect two routes from the above list won't be here next summer, but we'll simply have to wait and see.

With one existing TATL link being described as a low-yield basketcase by those working for the airline in question and another related operation not exactly achieving loadfactors becoming of the size of the aircraft deployed, it will be fascinating to see whether capacity increases or declines next year, regardless of the airport's ability to cope with it.

The posts above were made in July and August 2023 and relate to the services between EDI and the US that operated then (UA to EWR*2/IAD/ORD, DL to ATL/BOS/JFK and VS to MCO). All of these services are on sale for S24 and all start within the next two to four months.

Current schedules show IAD starting six weeks earlier than it did in S23, ATL finishing four weeks later and MCO starting two and a half months earlier. All will operate with aircraft of the same size as operated in S23, except IAD, where the S24 schedule shows 757s but 764s operated some flights in S23 (the 764s were a relatively late addition then, so it’s possible that they could also operate in S24).

Would it be reasonable therefore to conclude now that the two routes over which the doubts quoted above were expressed can indeed be expected to operate in S24 (barring some force majeure type event)? If so, why might they have been given a reprieve?

[Donkey497]

.... and we've missed other EDI news, not as bad as someone actually dying as a result of transiting via EDI, but a flight cancelled and the captain appearing in court tomorrow morning on an offensive weapons / firearms charge is reasonably notable.

Reports of United captain detained at EDI Security over taser - flight cancelled (https://planetradio.co.uk/forth/local/news/airline-captain-arrested-over-firearms-charge-as-edinburgh-passengers-stranded/?fbclid=IwAR1PtYc1dlutxamyxb8lAfdylRjvxtFDDzaFAPx1qSNlZU5XoT 0aRBQ4J6E)

We need to up our game and change focus away from speculation on routes or ownership.

[NotanAVGeek]

Quite a lot of diversions around as to be expected.

FR had 2 DUB flights return to EDI after failing to land.

Also an EZY GVA-BRS flight diverted upto EDI

EDI-BRS diverted to CDG.

I read on another thread EDI and NCL not accepting anymore diversions but appears the EZY LTN-EDI is now going to NCL

[Wycombe]

Quite a lot of diversions around as to be expected.

FR had 2 DUB flights return to EDI after failing to land.

Also an EZY GVA-BRS flight diverted upto EDI

EDI-BRS diverted to CDG.

I read on another thread EDI and NCL not accepting anymore diversions but appears the EZY LTN-EDI is now going to NCL
I noted a Ryanair flight FR2970 TFS-EDI last night that ended up in CGN (Cologne, Germany!)

[NotanAVGeek]

I noted a Ryanair flight FR2970 TFS-EDI last night that ended up in CGN (Cologne, Germany!)

That was the first of 3 Ryanair flights which diverted to Cologne.

Even more strangely the DUB & SNN - EDI both ended up in Germany.

A lot of disruption today no doubt with aircrafts and crews out of base.

Fair play to Ryanair and EasyJet who are operating flights as overnight delayed rather than cancel them. Ryanair operating a few flights with lengthy delays as operating with non based aircraft (in reverse)

[GeorgeNTravels]

NEW AGA - 2 weekly
ALC - 7 weekly
BCN - 8 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rise to 10 weekly in JUNE
BRI - 2 weekly
BFS - 13 weekly
BER - 8 weekly
BZR - 2 weekly (currently set to commence in JUNE)
BLL - 3 weekly in APRIL and MAY rise to 4 weekly in JUNE
BLQ - 3 weekly
BOD - 4 weekly
BOH - 4 weekly
BTS - 2 weekly
CRL - 9 weekly in APRIL and MAY rise to 10 weekly in JUNE
OTP - 2 weekly
BUD - 6 weekly APRIL and MAY, rise to 7 weekly in JUNE
CCF - CUT
CPH - 9 weekly
CFU - 1 weekly (currently not loaded in APRIL and MAY)
ORK - 7 weekly (originally loaded at 10 weekly)
DUB - 32 weekly
NRN - 6 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 7 weekly in JUNE
EIN - 2 weekly
FAO - 5 weekly (originally loaded at 8 weekly)
FUE - 2 weekly
GDN - 5 weekly
LPA - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
GOT - 2 weekly
HAM - 4 weekly (originally loaded at 5 weekly)
IBZ - 2 weekly
KUN - 2 weekly
NOC - 2 weekly (originally loaded at 3 weekly)
KRK - 5 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 6 weekly in JUNE (originaly loaded at 6/5)
ACE - 4 weekly
LIS - 3 weekly
STN - 21 weekly (originally loaded at 17 weekly)
MAD - 5 weekly
AGP - 6 weekly
MLA - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
RAK - 2 weekly
MRS - 4 weekly
BGY - 6 weekly
NTE - 2 weekly
NAP - 3 weekly
NQY - 2 weekly
FNI - CUT
PMO - CURRENTLY NOT LOADED
PMI - 8 weekly
BVA - 4 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 5 weekly in JUNE
PSA - 4 weekly
PIS - 2 weekly
OPO - 3 weekly
POZ - 2 weekly (originally loaded at 3 weekly)
PRG - 5 weekly
RHO - 2 weekly
RIX - 4 weekly
CIA - 7 weekly
SDR - 2 weekly
SCQ -CUT
SVQ - 3 weekly
SNN - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
SOF - 3 weekly
TFS - 5 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 6 weekly in JUNE
TIA - 2 weekly (originally loaded at 3 weekly)
TLS - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
TRN - CUT
VLC - 2 weekly
VCE - 3 weekly
VIE - 3 weekly
WMI - CURRENTLY NOT LOADED (they hold slots for EDI-WAW this winter so may transfer)
WRO - 2 weekly
ZAD - 2 weekly


Summary of Changes

AGA new at 2x week
ORK and FAO reduced by 3 weekly
HAM, NOC, KRK, POZ, TIA reduced by 1 weekly (It is possible that based a/c at EDI will operate Warsaw rather than BUZZ), WMI was 5 weekly, this clears 5 separate days to operate a Warsaw flight to either WAW or WMI
STN up by 4 weekly
BGY will remain at 6 weekly rather than increase to 7 weekly.

It appears Ryanair are updating schedules again (given the size of the summary at the bottom this is all likely to change)

AGA - 2 weekly
ALC - 6 weekly (rises to 7 weekly in JULY)
BCN - 8 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rise to 10 weekly in JUNE
BRI - 2 weekly
BFS - 13 weekly
NEW EGC - 2 weekly
BER - 8 weekly (reduces to 7 weekly from JUNE)
BZR - 2 weekly
NEW BIQ - 2 weekly
BLL - 3 weekly in APRIL and MAY rise to 4 weekly in JUNE
BLQ - 3 weekly (4 weekly in OCTOBER)
BOD - 4 weekly (reduces to 3 weekly from JUNE)
BOH - 4 weekly (reduces to 3 weekly from JUNE)
BTS - 2 weekly
CRL - 9 weekly (reduces to 8 weekly from JUNE)
OTP - 2 weekly
BUD - 6 weekly
CPH - 9 weekly (reduces to 8 weekly from JUNE - 9th flight shows as sold out)
CFU - 1 weekly
ORK - 7 weekly
DUB - 31 weekly (reduces to 29 weekly from JUNE)
NRN - 6 weekly
EIN - 2 weekly
FAO - 5 weekly
FUE - 2 weekly
GDN - 5 weekly
LPA - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
GOT - 2 weekly
HAM - 4 weekly (reduces to 3 weekly from JUNE)
IBZ - 2 weekly
KUN - 2 weekly (rises to 3 weekly in OCTOBER)
NOC - 2 weekly
KRK - 5 weekly in APRIL and MAY (reduces to 4 weekly from JUNE)
ACE - 4 weekly
LIS - 3 weekly
STN - 21 weekly
MAD - 5 weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in JUNE)
AGP - 6 weekly
MLA - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
RAK - 2 weekly
MRS - 4 weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in JUNE)
BGY - 6 weekly
NTE - 2 weekly
NAP - 3 weekly
NQY - 2 weekly
PMO - 2 weekly
PMI - 8 weekly (reduced to 7 weekly from JUNE)
BVA - 4 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 5 weekly in JUNE
PSA - 4 weekly
PIS - 2 weekly
OPO - 3 weekly
POZ - 3 weekly (reduced to 2 weekly from JUNE)
PRG - 5 weekly (reduced to 4 weekly from JUNE)
RHO - 2 weekly
RIX - 4 weekly (reduced to 3 weekly from JUNE)
CIA - 6 weekly
SDR - 3 weekly (reduced to 2 weekly from JUNE)
SVQ - 3 weekly
SNN - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
SOF - 3 weekly
TFS - 5 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 6 weekly in JUNE
TIA - 2 weekly
TLS - 2 weekly in APRIL and MAY, rising to 3 weekly in JUNE
VLC - 2 weekly
VCE - 3 weekly
VIE - 3 weekly
WMI - CURRENTLY NOT LOADED (they hold slots for EDI-WAW this winter so may transfer)
WRO - 2 weekly
ZAD - 2 weekly


Summary of Changes

EGC & BIQ new at 2 weekly
PMO loaded at 2 weekly following not being loaded for S24
ALC increase to 7 weekly delayed from JUNE to JULY
BER reduced from 8 to 7 weekly from JUNE
BLQ increase to 4 weekly in OCTOBER
BOD reduced from 4 to 3 weekly from JUNE
BOH reduced from 4 to 3 weekly from JUNE
CRL reduced from 9 to 8 weekly from JUNE (planned 10 weekly CANX)
BUD planned increase to 7 weekly from JUNE CANX
CPH reduced from 10 to 8 weekly from JUNE
DUB reduced from 32 to 31 weekly, drops to 29 weekly from JUNE
NRN planned increase to 7 weekly from JUNE CANX
HAM reduced from 4 to 3 weekly from JUNE
KUN increases to 3 weekly in OCTOBER
KRK reduced from 5 to 4 weekly in JUNE
MAD reduced from 5 to 3 weekly from JUNE
MRS reduced from 4 to 3 weekly from JUNE
PMI reduced from 8 to 7 weekly from JUNE
POZ increased from 2 to 3 weekly in APRIL and MAY
PRG reduced from 5 to 4 weekly from JUNE
RIX reduced from 4 to 3 weekly from JUNE
CIA reduced from 7 to 6 weekly
SDR increased from 2 to 3 weekly in APRIL and MAY

[southamptonavgeek]

Startup carrier Ecojet hiring ATR crew for an EDI base. Targeting a Q2 launch date

[VickersVicount]

Startup carrier Ecojet hiring ATR crew for an EDI base. Targeting a Q2 launch date
First Electric props, then Twin Otters, then Dash8s and now ATR… I smell a Global Airways…

[Richard Taylor]

First Electric props, then Twin Otters, then Dash8s and now ATR… I smell a Global Airways…
And a distinct smell of Kerosene... :O

[southamptonavgeek]

First Electric props, then Twin Otters, then Dash8s and now ATR… I smell a Global Airways…
I'm not so sure that the plan has changed at all. This looks like a "genuine" commitment - https://zeroavia.com/ecojet/

[GoEDI]

Where exactly are these jobs advertised?

[GeorgeNTravels]

Where exactly are these jobs advertised?

On their LinkedIn page IIRC

[Sk1schoolsam]

Startup carrier Ecojet hiring ATR crew for an EDI base. Targeting a Q2 launch date

Have they secured the slots for EDI- SOU to take on Loganair?
Are they launching with Twin Otter or ATR42? (Conventional fuel to then convert when engines are available)

[southamptonavgeek]

Have they secured the slots for EDI- SOU to take on Loganair?
Are they launching with Twin Otter or ATR42? (Conventional fuel to then convert when engines are available)
No AOC yet so no word on slots. Adverts are only for the ATR 72 so maybe DHC6s will only be when Zeroavia conversions are up and running?

[GoEDI]

On their LinkedIn page IIRC

Thanks. Believe it when I see it...

[TartinTon]

First Electric props, then Twin Otters, then Dash8s and now ATR… I smell a Global Airways…

No change to what they originally stated that they would have a mix of twotters and a 70 seater a/c type, first choice was DH8 but have opted for ATR72 presumably because they're still being made and you can get parts for them. The power trains have been committed to through ZeroAvia and they are recruiting a start-up team and have now moved on to crew recruitment. Quite a different approach to Global who have lots of advisors and no real staff plus an aspiration to take Amex and serve Laurent Perrier to their passengers......

[Flightrider]

I'm guessing that they have also hired someone in Revenue Management then :rolleyes:

I am really baffled by this one. EcoJet. It's no more "eco" than anyone else flying ATR72s with plans to transition to hydrogen power via either the ZeroAvia or Universal Hydrogen programmes - there are many. And it's not a "jet". Isn't this rather like British Airways painting "American SpaceRocket" on the side of its aeroplanes - it's neither American nor a space rocket?

[Breathe]

Potentially new changes to Edinburgh and Glasgow airport air routes.

Major changes to Scottish air routes to be unveiled by Edinburgh and Glasgow airports

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/major-changes-to-scottish-air-routes-to-be-unveiled-by-edinburgh-and-glasgow-airports-4494958

The next step towards Scotland leading the UK in the biggest changes to its airspace for 70 years is launched this week with views being sought on a move towards “quicker, quieter and cleaner” flights.

It comes as part of the countdown to detailed proposals being unveiled by Edinburgh and Glasgow airports, which are expected to include plans for shorter journeys to and from London by re-routing aircraft along the east coast.

The move is aimed at creating more direct routes between airports to cut delays, noise and emissions. Many routes were established in the 1950s, based on pilots being guided by a series of ground-based beacons that were often not the shortest. They also involved routes converging at certain points, causing congestion.

Detailed design options are being worked up by Scotland’s two busiest airports, but their complexity has delayed publication for up to a year until late 2024.

The body overseeing the process for the UK Government will on Monday embark on a “public engagement exercise” in Scotland ahead of publishing a masterplan for the project. This is designed to help people understand the process.

The Airspace Change Organising Group (ACOG) said it would focus on airspace in and around Edinburgh and Glasgow airports below 7,000ft. Separate changes are planned for higher-level airspace by air traffic control firm National Air Traffic Services.

Scotland is in the vanguard of the changes, which will be repeated in three areas covering the rest of the UK.

ACOG head Mark Swan told The Scotsman: "I suspect all eyes will be on Scotland to see how this plays out over the coming months. This is a big signposting exercise, preparing the ground so people can be really well informed as to how best to have their voice when it comes to the consultations that the airports are in charge of.

"If we want increased capacity, flight efficiency, and quicker, quieter, cleaner journeys and reduced delays, this has to happen. Otherwise people just won’t get the flights they want.”

Mr Swan said if nothing was done, by 2040 one in five flights would be delayed by more than 45 minutes.

An ACOG spokesperson said feedback from three focus groups it had established in Scotland showed most people felt there would be an increase in flying in the future, but were concerned airspace was reaching capacity. There were also worries about the impact of delays on tourism.

The spokesperson said: "Around 80 per cent said airspace modernisation was a good thing to do for Scotland. There was broad support for why we need to do this and the potential to reduce emissions per flight because of more direct routings.”

A spokesman for Edinburgh Airport said: “We’re fully engaged in the process to modernise the skies above the airport and we will take a range of options through a public consultation later this year. This will help shape our final proposal.

“By working closely with our Scottish cluster partners Glasgow Airport and NATS, we’ve been able to identify changes to airspace infrastructure that will meet our criteria of modernisation whilst reducing the noise and carbon impact of flight paths across central Scotland.”

[fjencl]

What variant of the ATR72 will it be.
Is it just Edinburgh - Southampton - Edinburgh, is that the only route proposed so far.
Just wondering 🤔

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Potentially new changes to Edinburgh and Glasgow airport air routes.

Major changes to Scottish air routes to be unveiled by Edinburgh and Glasgow airports

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/major-changes-to-scottish-air-routes-to-be-unveiled-by-edinburgh-and-glasgow-airports-4494958
Pre early 1993, Southbound departures off 05 always turned right, now they're flight planned left into a climb to the West on the NORBO SID before turning South. Basically it's like a giant one way roundabout as GLA and EDI traffic was getting in each others way by 1992. I am not sure it ever worked efficiently since then but ISTBC. Of course you get a right turn if traffic is light and Scottish say yes.

[jensdad]

Pre early 1993, Southbound departures off 05 always turned right, now they're flight planned left into a climb to the West on the NORBO SID before turning South. Basically it's like a giant one way roundabout as GLA and EDI traffic was getting in each others way by 1992. I am not sure it ever worked efficiently since then but ISTBC. Of course you get a right turn if traffic is light and Scottish say yes.
Back to Edinburgh, I've often wondered why southbound departures off 24 do a short swerve to the right after take off, then a turn to the left a few miles on. Any ideas?

[Asturias56]

to avoid the centre of Livingstone?

[nighthawk117]

As part of the governments plan to restore the power sharing agreement in Northern Ireland, it seems they have agreed to begin talks with the United States on a pre-clearance facility in Belfast.


35. The Government will enter into exploratory talks with the United States Administration on the options for introducing pre-clearance checks on customs and immigration for passengers travelling on direct flights from Belfast International Airport and destinations in the USA.

Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65ba3b7bee7d490013984a59/Command_Paper__1_.pdf

Obviously this document is Northern Ireland specific, so no mention of Edinburgh or any other UK airport. Hopefully they are also included in the talks, and not just a one off for Belfast! If they can justify it in Belfast (which at the moment has no US flights) then surely EDI must be considered?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

As part of the governments plan to restore the power sharing agreement in Northern Ireland, it seems they have agreed to begin talks with the United States on a pre-clearance facility in Belfast.
Pork barrel politics and nothing more, they just spaff money away. That said I fully expect ScotGov to do something similar. Politicians love foreign meetings and photo ops but almost none of them can balance a budget or have any commercial experience.

[GulfTraveller]

It makes no more sense to me than having pre-clearance at Edinburgh. How many daily flights to US can BFS sustain? If they are looking at pre-clearance it should look at LGW or possibly MAN where passenger numbers are highest. The percentage of non US passport holders at those airports is much higher than at EDI. I am excluding LHR because the logistics there would be nightmarish.

As I have said before, pre-clearance does not attract airlines as they are not greatly interested in how long it takes passengers to clear immigration.

[Planeraz]

As part of the governments plan to restore the power sharing agreement in Northern Ireland, it seems they have agreed to begin talks with the United States on a pre-clearance facility in Belfast.


Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65ba3b7bee7d490013984a59/Command_Paper__1_.pdf

Obviously this document is Northern Ireland specific, so no mention of Edinburgh or any other UK airport. Hopefully they are also included in the talks, and not just a one off for Belfast! If they can justify it in Belfast (which at the moment has no US flights) then surely EDI must be considered?

Sounds very much like a political aspiration rather than a realistic proposition anytime soon. Hypothetical - but if Belfast were to secure an American route, which would be required to be heavily subsidised in my opinion to attract a carrier, would one route justify the obvious costs associated with pre-clearance? Would the Irish Republic Gov be happy to see another PC so close to Dublin? EDI, have been pushing for PC for years now. They have only recently completed the congressional committee visit stage. The CEO is now encouraging the two Gov’s to make it happen. The Belfast story is good PR in the grander scheme in relation to the NI executive sitting again.

[jensdad]

to avoid the centre of Livingstone?
Hmmm, just had as look on FR24 and they seem to be making the turn over Livingston rather than before it. My guess would be for separation from any immediately previous departures? A departure a few minutes ago, also heading south, didn't make the 'swerve' so it doesn't seem to be for ground clearance. (Pentland Hills to the south).

[inOban]

AIUI the ScoGov has to balance its budget as it has very limited borrowing powers. Whether it makes the right choices is another thing.

[SWBKCB]

Sounds very much like a political aspiration rather than a realistic proposition anytime soon. Hypothetical - but if Belfast were to secure an American route, which would be required to be heavily subsidised in my opinion to attract a carrier, would one route justify the obvious costs associated with pre-clearance? Would the Irish Republic Gov be happy to see another PC so close to Dublin? EDI, have been pushing for PC for years now. They have only recently completed the congressional committee visit stage. The CEO is now encouraging the two Gov’s to make it happen. The Belfast story is good PR in the grander scheme in relation to the NI executive sitting again.

Clearly a political move to support the NI economy and promote growth. Little relevance to any PC aspirations elsewhere.

[nighthawk117]

As I have said before, pre-clearance does not attract airlines as they are not greatly interested in how long it takes passengers to clear immigration.

EDI management clearly disagree. Pre-Clearance potentially attracts customers - which does attract customers.

There are still a lot of passengers flying to the US via other UK/EU hubs from Edinburgh. How many fly via Dublin because it has pre-clearance?

Offering pre-clearance might persuade more of these passengers to fly direct.

[laviation]

Then again, the US immigration experience is vastly improved - I don’t think it would make such a huge difference?

Furthermore, airlines do not factor in pre clearance in route development decisions.

All at the cost of precious space which is already limited - I honestly don’t see the big benefit this will bring for EDI?

[Planeraz]

Then again, the US immigration experience is vastly improved - I don’t think it would make such a huge difference?

Furthermore, airlines do not factor in pre clearance in route development decisions.

All at the cost of precious space which is already limited - I honestly don’t see the big benefit this will bring for EDI?

Presumably, EDI looked at Dublin and noted how TATL operations/routes increased greatly as a result of PC. If the EDI CEO is to be believed, airlines have already indicated PC would open up new opportunities for TATL growth.

[BA318]

Then again, the US immigration experience is vastly improved - I don’t think it would make such a huge difference?

Furthermore, airlines do not factor in pre clearance in route development decisions.

All at the cost of precious space which is already limited - I honestly don’t see the big benefit this will bring for EDI?

I wouldn’t say it’s improved. I flew to the US five times last year. JFK queues ranged from 35min to 2.5hrs. IAD was nearly 3 hours. DFW was 5 mins (although my colleague waited 2hrs a few days later). I have Global Entry now though which is a game changer.

[ATNotts]

Presumably, EDI looked at Dublin and noted how TATL operations/routes increased greatly as a result of PC. If the EDI CEO is to be believed, airlines have already indicated PC would open up new opportunities for TATL growth.
The difference of course is that the principal TATL carrier is feeding the hub from numerous regional airports across the UK. Can you see Delta or United operating connecting feeders in EDI from the likes of BHX, SOU, BRS, LBA etc? I can't.

[edi_local]

I wouldn’t say it’s improved. I flew to the US five times last year. JFK queues ranged from 35min to 2.5hrs. IAD was nearly 3 hours. DFW was 5 mins (although my colleague waited 2hrs a few days later). I have Global Entry now though which is a game changer.

I agree. I have been to the USA 4 times in the last 14 months and only once, in EWR, did I have a quick entry experience (just as well as I was in transit), where I waited about 10 minutes. IAH a few months later was about an hour, TPA at Christmas time was nearly 90 minutes, and BOS a few weeks ago was nearly 2 hours. Pretty much the only positive change is that they no longer stamp passports in the USA, as it saves valuable space. If EDI does gain pre-clearance it'll be a positive step and will open up much tighter connections on the US side. I am a bit confused as to where in the terminal they would put such a facility though as it also needs to be able to clear baggage for customs. Perhaps the current IA1 area will be renovated, it has the space for queuing, passport desks, and baggage belts already, so would make sense...but then CTA arrivals would need somewhere else to go, and it would be awkward to work it into the current flow of the terminal.

[inOban]

But I can see feeder flights from various locations in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.

[SWBKCB]

But I can see feeder flights from various locations in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.

who would be the operator?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

But I can see feeder flights from various locations in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.
Why would anyone one stop via EDI which has no Flight Connections facility over a direct protected connection from their home market? They'd have to clear the UK Border first unless EDI is planning on biometrics for all?

There's not that much more growth going to come in US-EDI I think, only American is missing, so unless EDI has the same delusion GLA had about being a hub between Europe and the USA, I am not sure where the ROI comes from, that 1977 build terminal is already needing a replacement as it's been modified well beyond the original intent.

[Donkey497]

But I can see feeder flights from various locations in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.

Why?

To fly for an hour or more so that you can to go through UK immigration on arrival in EDI & then effectively go through the US immigration process immediately thereafter just so you can then cool your heels for the ever-increasing minimum transit inter flight time all in the effort to stroll off the plane once you've spent another eight hours plus crossing the pond really doesn't seem like a selling point to me when on the great circle you're not much more that the same eight or so hours from most of Europe to the US.
Even if the direct flight from the generic European destination is 3 hours longer than the EDI-US flight time it'd still be quicker to fly direct & clear on arrival than stop for pre-clearance here. I've been looking into what I can arrange for my own transatlantic travel this month & there's no direct flights this time of year & the shortest layover that I can book at an intermediary airport is 105 minutes. So, 2 hour flight from Europe to EDI, an hour and three quarters in the inevitable shopping mall and another eight hours across the pond versus even a 10 hour direct flight you're still looking at a quicker direct flight, even if the US immigration etc takes over an hour.

for many years I used to have to virtually commute to IAH for part of each year & I have to say that pre-clearance from my own experience was almost wholly irrelevant. Overall,my abiding preference was the original Delta 767 flight to ATL, clear there and hop on the next flight to IAH. The time between flights was really nicely judged, and the TSA there was really switched on, to allow you to clear without any real delay or risk of missing your connection and also it was good get up and move about freely. Second preference became the UA 757 to EWR, clear there and on to IAH. Slower and a bit of a faff changing terminals at EWR.

JFK was an unpleasant necessity on occasion & the BA/Heathrow clown show to anywhere else should frankly be buried at midnight with a stake through their hearts and their heads removed. [I am not a fan of London Airport] Clearance for international arrival at IAH I have to admit was hit & miss, depending on exactly what terminal you arrived at / were re-directed to once on foot & just how many jumbos, treble-7's etc. had all showed up at the same time.

As some of the others have pointed out, pre-clearance doesn't have any influence on the airline's route development plans, and from a passenger perspective it's a necessary evil that has to happen somewhere.

Whilst not wishing to stir the pot further, should "The Donald" by some global misfortune manage to get his feet under the oval office desk again, expect a reduction in pre-clearance facilities, not an expansion. [Nor am I a fan of the delusional snake oil salesman.]

[nighthawk117]

You're comparing flying direct vs flying through Edinburgh. What about people flying from places that dont have a direct flight to the US?

Compare flying through Edinburgh and using pre-clearance vs flying through Amsterdam or Paris.

EDI then becomes a slightly more preferable routing.

[Rutan16]

You're comparing flying direct vs flying through Edinburgh. What about people flying from places that dont have a direct flight to the US?

Compare flying through Edinburgh and using pre-clearance vs flying through Amsterdam or Paris.

EDI then becomes a slightly more preferable routing.

No it doesn’t as the alliance and associated ‘awards” and indeed frequencies still prevail thats the core of the alliance hub and spoke model .

Now i’ll caveat that with saying SAS transferring over to Skyteam ‘might” generate a potential small uplift as an alternate routing ( price sensitive) into the Delta/Virgin flights at times if the Stockholm flight is retimed correctly .

Wont be nearly sufficient to support TSA pre clearance through.

What potential feed flows are you considering for United and * étoile alliance not already covered satisfactorily via Heathrow Frankfurt Munich or Zurich I don’t know _ If Mr Bishops main carrier were still in business perhaps; they are not .

AA/ BAW/CFE as per SAS in reality - Now they have in the past used Manchester as an alternate when they shared the T3 terminal and it could work here if Philadelphia is restored again in very very small numbers _ Certainly wasn’t unknown to have upwards of 50 transfers in the past.

However generally it is my opinion that pre-clearance will become far less important in the near future as more digital documentation and procedures expand in Europe/UK and indeed USA.

[Donkey497]

You're comparing flying direct vs flying through Edinburgh. What about people flying from places that dont have a direct flight to the US?

Compare flying through Edinburgh and using pre-clearance vs flying through Amsterdam or Paris.

Okay.

1. Fly from Europe Spoke site to Europe Hub site with preclearance for USA. No immigration or customs clearance on arrival at EU Hub, just preclearance.

2. Fly from Europe Spoke to EDI spoke with preclearance for USA. Immigration & customs clearance on arrival at EDI as we're no longer "free movement", never mind Schengen, then preclearance.

3. Fly from Europe Spoke site to USA with no preclearance.

If you can't fly direct, 3. is by far the quickest with only a risk of delay on landing. 1. is next best as you have only a small risk of delay at preclearance and even if you do, there's likely to be a later flight [as it's a hub airport] that you could be transferred to. Option 2. is the worst. You risk delay at UK immigration AND customs as you will have to be landed before going through pre-clearance and then another delay risk at US preclearance which could prevent you getting on your once-daily EDI-spoke flight to the US hub airport.

I appreciate that there are more than one flights to the USA, but if you are connecting out of DC, say, a later flight to EWR may be an option but to other destinations served like Chicago, Orlando or Atlanta are getting towards the chocolate fireguard category.

I am afraid to say that until EDI actually becomes a hub airport for [multiple] US based airlines, I'm fimrly of the mind that preclearance will remain largely irrelevant.

[laviation]

I just don’t see what pre clearance is going to attract for EDI?

If there was a new, modern terminal being built then it could properly be done. It works at Dublin because that is a proper network hub, and tiny town Shannon does not have a huge need for space - more of a perk there. Same goes for BFS to an extent - if pre clearance covers a gate or two. A perk for any potential future US link.

I think EDI should look at this from the same perspective of MAN - not worth the space, not worth the investment. El Dorado isn’t just going to magically appear..

As for the SAS/Skyteam argument, that’s talking single digits per week. I would much rather fly direct from ARN then route ARN-EDI-XXX. I’m sure the added connection time would be much longer than these immigration queues?

What EDI really should’ve been chasing is EIUK though. A proper based carrier which would benefit from being in a home market (IAG/OW).

[BA318]

I just don’t see what pre clearance is going to attract for EDI?

If there was a new, modern terminal being built then it could properly be done. It works at Dublin because that is a proper network hub, and tiny town Shannon does not have a huge need for space - more of a perk there. Same goes for BFS to an extent - if pre clearance covers a gate or two. A perk for any potential future US link.

I think EDI should look at this from the same perspective of MAN - not worth the space, not worth the investment. El Dorado isn’t just going to magically appear..

As for the SAS/Skyteam argument, that’s talking single digits per week. I would much rather fly direct from ARN then route ARN-EDI-XXX. I’m sure the added connection time would be much longer than these immigration queues?

What EDI really should’ve been chasing is EIUK though. A proper based carrier which would benefit from being in a home market (IAG/OW).

I’m based at ARN. The trouble is we don’t have many direct flights. We can fly to JFK, EWR or MIA (seasonal). For anywhere else we need to change. Most often I end up on Finnair or BA. I have global entry so preclearance isn’t a dealbreaker for me but if flights work I’d have no problem going via EDI and sticking with SAS and Skyteam.
As for immigration times, I’ve queued nearly 3hrs last year at IAD and had plenty of connections shorter than that.

[laviation]

I’m based at ARN. The trouble is we don’t have many direct flights. We can fly to JFK, EWR or MIA (seasonal). For anywhere else we need to change. Most often I end up on Finnair or BA. I have global entry so preclearance isn’t a dealbreaker for me but if flights work I’d have no problem going via EDI and sticking with SAS and Skyteam.
As for immigration times, I’ve queued nearly 3hrs last year at IAD and had plenty of connections shorter than that.

EDI's only year round connection is United to EWR & Delta to JFK (although that one does suspend in shoulder season) ?

Point is, SAS/Skyteam will continue to route through LHR (and MAN to a lesser extent for LAS/MCO) even if EDI gets pre clearance .

[Rutan16]

I’m based at ARN. The trouble is we don’t have many direct flights. We can fly to JFK, EWR or MIA (seasonal). For anywhere else we need to change. Most often I end up on Finnair or BA. I have global entry so preclearance isn’t a dealbreaker for me but if flights work I’d have no problem going via EDI and sticking with SAS and Skyteam.
As for immigration times, I’ve queued nearly 3hrs last year at IAD and had plenty of connections shorter than that.

I understand SAS are already recasting the Trans Atlantic network and indeed European networks to align with Delta/ KLM and AirFrance however they have also pretty much refocused on long haul back to Copenhagen .

Seems the dual long haul hub Copenhagen and Stockholm ( limited Oslo) wasn’t at all optimal

Now the real question must surely be can they better push the majority of Trans Atlantic (it’s a smallish number in the scheme of things ) via Copenhagen, Amsterdam, JFK ( rather than Newark ) and Atlanta over Heathrow and United idk.

I highlighted the viability of Stockholm via Edinburgh subject to some rejigging ( as an alternate rather than primary docket routing) however if it generates an extra 50 to 60 connects per day pre-clearance existence wouldn’t make an ounce of difference imho.

Right now SAS need to exit administration and AFKL will certainly want much of the currently star traffic rerouted via Amsterdam and indeed Copenhagen

[Jamezon]

Looks like Easyjet have dropped Hamburg for S24 (and maybe beyond).

[Breathe]

Airspace Change Organising Group - Airspace Change Masterplan (Iteration 3) Scotland: Public Engagement Exercise is open for public consultation until 10 March 2024:

https://acog.citizenspace.com/comms/sctma/

Supporting documentation: https://acog.citizenspace.com/comms/sctma/supporting_documents/ACOG_ScTMA%20PEX_DOCUMENT_2024.pdf

[Planeraz]

Terminal Expansion

It would appear that some significant changes lie ahead at EDI in the next 3-4 years. Described as creating a much expanded area for international flights. Another add on really with the terminal being extended north from gates 4-11. Most domestic flights will be handled through gates 1-3. Presumably the extension will be dual level, similar to Heathrow allowing departing and arriving flights to be handled at same time without disruption, New airbridges at gate 7 and 8? As suggested in previous posts, airbridges attached to terminal past gates 19 creating stands for wide body aircraft. The expansion northwards presumably would create the space for gate rooms? The work would have to start soon to meet this time-line?

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/edinburgh-airport-baggage-fiasco-similar-poor-performance-expected-this-summer-warns-chief-executive-gordon-dewar/ar-BB1hTTcS#:~:text=Edinburgh%20Airport%20chief%20says%20baggag e,passed%20to%20the%20airlines%20responsible.

[willy wombat]

Nobody could deny that terminal expansion is desperately needed but who is going to pay for if? With the airport up for sale it seems unlikely that the current owners will want to fund it and, assuming it is sold, what happens next is up to the new owners.

[tictack67]

Nobody could deny that terminal expansion is desperately needed but who is going to pay for if? With the airport up for sale it seems unlikely that the current owners will want to fund it and, assuming it is sold, what happens next is up to the new owners.


The entire company that owned Edinburgh (GIP) has been acquired by Blackrock, at the moment the sale appears to be off

[CabinCrewe]

not knowing much of the background to this relatively sudden takeover, I was interested to hear from a commentator..
”Getting $100 billion AUM for $12 billion tells about a whole lot of debt. I hope BlackRock is able to handle all that labyrinth that they're getting themselves into”

[inOban]

AIUI, the team which built up GIP (from scratch AIR?) will now be in charge of Blackrock's entire infrastructure division. I'm sure that their borrowing costs will be much lower than those of GIP.

[ld0595]

Hopefully it also involves a desperately needed expansion of the check in area...

[Whaupshank]

Profit from the major Crosswinds Building Project which will be built on the old Runways will provide a fair sum to whoever owns Edinburgh. Planning Conditions decree that profit from Development within the Airport Boundaries must be spent on its Development.

[Planeraz]

Hopefully it also involves a desperately needed expansion of the check in area...

I assume the border control area at arrivals 1 won’t be required when domestic flights move predominately to gates 1-4. That area will free up some much needed space. A couple of baggage belts is all that would be required. The risk is that any freed up space is given over for more retail.

[bar none]

With over 40 charter flights for the French rugby supporters could today be the single busiest day ever for Edi?

[CabinCrewe]

With over 40 charter flights for the French rugby supporters could today be the single busiest day ever for Edi?
Would think theyve done similar or more in past. Used to be 747’s and other widebodies, now mainly small narrowbodies

[tictack67]

Would think theyve done similar or more in past. Used to be 747’s and other widebodies, now mainly small narrowbodies
​​​​​​
You are thinking of when the Irish come, where only Dublin was really served with EI 747

Today there were flights to 18 different airports in France

Nantes, Lille, Bordeaux, Rennes, Valence, Toulouse, Montpellier, Dole, Lyon La Rochelle, Pau, Marseille , Grenoble, Brest, Tours, Paris (ORY/CDG/XCR)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Air France did used to send B747s, AOM DC10s etc. Changed days.

[tictack67]

Air France did used to send B747s, AOM DC10s etc. Changed days.
​​​​​​
British Airways used to fly B767 to LHR,.now A319. changed days. Frabkly thank god, people want to go local amd point to point. Years ago you had to connect at BHX or MAN or LHR for paris or places on Germany.

all these french flights are taking supports back to their local airport

[Planeraz]

December 2023 Stats

1,066,685

+19% on 2022 and exceeds 2019 total of 1,048,297

2023 Total Pax

14,396,794

December 2023

Certain European short hall routes performed well above 2022 levels.

Helsinki +26%
Paris CDG +48%
Munich +48%
Milan +67%
Malta +62%
Zurich +118%
Poznan +115%
Prague +50%

TK Istanbul slightly disappointing. -4% on 2022. The QR factor?

Long Haul

Newark - flatline with a minimal +1%
JFK + 13%
Air Canada - Toronto total pax - 4975. Mixture of 788 and 789’s. Approx LF of 77%

Doha +114%

Qatar highest ever monthly pax total at EDI I believe. 32,013. Approx LF of 93% Very good performance. It would appear they got it right going double daily on an A359.

[A350Saltire]

QR’s growth at EDI is very impressive. Rumours of a third daily are still very much there too. I think it shows that a higher frequency offering a vast array of connections through their very impressive hub is the way forward.

Plus I am obviously very much in favour of the A350 and without causing arguments it is simply much better than the 787 from a passenger’s point of view.

[SWBKCB]

Plus I am obviously very much in favour of the A350 and without causing arguments it is simply much better than the 787 from a passenger’s point of view.

In what way - once I'm onboard I struggle to tell the difference.

[A350Saltire]

In what way - once I'm onboard I struggle to tell the difference.

To me it just feels more spacious which I guess is subjective by airline (although the A350 cabin is slightly wider). The 787 is a great aircraft too, I just prefer the A350.

[Sotonsean]

In what way - once I'm onboard I struggle to tell the difference.

Well once on-board the size of the windows on the Boeing 787 will immediately show you the difference from being on an A350.

Windows on the Airbus A350, 21 cm x 34.3 cm.

Windows on the Boeing 787, 27 x 47 cm.

But once on-board anyone would struggle with noticing the difference between the widths of the two aircraft as the Airbus A350 is only 5 inches wider than the Boeing 787.

[Planeraz]

On the subject of A350’s, will EDI see an EK version in the near future? Latest reports suggests they will receive first few in August 2024. Will QR finally make a decision to go 3 x daily or not?

[GulfTraveller]

I am not sure where the idea has come from that EDI would be an A350 route. If it happened it would surely be a 773. At this stage it seems twice daily at GLA is more likely.

[tartan 201]

I am not sure where the idea has come from that EDI would be an A350 route. If it happened it would surely be a 773. At this stage it seems twice daily at GLA is more likely.

I've seen it speculated on here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/35582063-post6.html

[wub]

Well once on-board the size of the windows on the Boeing 787 will immediately show you the difference from being on an A350.

Windows on the Airbus A350, 21 cm x 34.3 cm.

Windows on the Boeing 787, 27 x 47 cm.

But once on-board anyone would struggle with noticing the difference between the widths of the two aircraft as the Airbus A350 is only 5 inches wider than the Boeing 787.

Except that the crew takes control of the 787s windows and darkens them, spoiling the view. It happens on QR and BA

[GeorgeNTravels]

10 Busiest Routes from EDI are listed below.

London Heathrow - 1,049,394
Dublin - 722,767
London Stansted - 599,950
Amsterdam - 593,951
London Gatwick - 459,481
Paris CDG - 448,434
Belfast Intl - 433,876
Bristol - 422,824
London City - 342,810
Tenerife - 320,165

On a general note, a trend that should be watched is a decline in traffic in Eastern Europe, with the exception of Bulgaria and Albania. Numbers to Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania & Romania were all down on 2022, with Polish growth being less than 1,000 pax.

Growth recorded in every other market apart from Croatia which was down due to Ryanair shortening the season to Zadar.

[inOban]

At present Emirates have more or less a captive market at Glasgow, those who want to visit Dubai (why?) and those to whom it is a much more convenient airport. Their problems are that a single flight cannot possibly connect with all flights forward, and that the A380 has limited cargo capacity. Logically they should replace the A380 with two 777s giving both better connections and more cargo space. To split their offer between EDI and GLA seems pointless, with two, possibly three flights a day they would struggle. (There's now clear air between Qatar at EDI - 32k - and Emirates at GLA - 28K)

It may be, of course, that the double-deck bridge at GLA was underwritten by Emirates and they must continue to use the A380

[GeorgeNTravels]

Albania - 4,961 (Launched in November 2023 and did not operate in 2022)

Austria - 68,121 (+9,436)

Barbados - 524 (-1,685)

Belgium - 192,342 (+34,688)

Bulgaria - 52,959 (+7,256)

Canada - 114,391 (+44,649)

China - 11,281 (Did not operate in 2022)

Croatia - 59,722 (-4,425)

Cyprus - 72,533 (+7,285)

Czech Rep - 87,178 (+12,927)

Denmark - 289,730 (+57,448)

Egypt - 4,219 (Launched in November 2023 and did not operate in 2022)

Estonia - 0 (-22,943)

Finland - 50,869 (+17,668)

France - 865,252 (+205,928)

Germany - 735,358 (175,419)

Greece - 264,438 (+48,509)

Hungary - 118,796 (-7,351)

Iceland - 43,710 (+9,072)

Ireland - 974,582 (+197,440)

Italy - 639,148 (+154,439)

Latvia - 48,187 (-7,464)

Lithuania - 40,850 (-1,401)

Malta - 51,849 (+16,505)

Mexico - 2,039 (-233)

Morocco - 36,115 (+8,093)

Netherlands - 653,269 (+125,503)

Norway - 139,955 (+23,268)

Poland - 416,667 (+956)

Portugal - 341,404 (+46,256)

Qatar - 292,141 (+147,246)

Romania - 72,846 (-4,416)

Slovakia - 36,716 (+10,062)

Spain - 1,934,980 (+261,478)

Sweden - 120,857 (+31,374)

Switzerland - 350,203 (+65,962)

Turkiye - 371,736 (+79,056)

UK - 4,253,218 (+1,169,670)

USA - 475,761 (+134,071)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

At present Emirates have more or less a captive market at Glasgow, those who want to visit Dubai (why?) and those to whom it is a much more convenient airport. Their problems are that a single flight cannot possibly connect with all flights forward, and that the A380 has limited cargo capacity. Logically they should replace the A380 with two 777s giving both better connections and more cargo space. To split their offer between EDI and GLA seems pointless, with two, possibly three flights a day they would struggle. (There's now clear air between Qatar at EDI - 32k - and Emirates at GLA - 28K)

It may be, of course, that the double-deck bridge at GLA was underwritten by Emirates and they must continue to use the A380
Emirates aren't back to pre COVID levels in Scotland whereas Qatar are now well beyond in growth terms. GLA was 1xA388 and 1xB77W every day, was it not?
It's not a "captive market" in the central belt, it's a duopoly split between two operators with Turkish also in the game, but the market would move to EDI just like transatlantic did, Emirates have chosen to stay at GLA, partly I reckon as they NEED to fly all those A380s somewhere for the next few years.

[inOban]

I should have made it clear that for most of Scotland, including parts of Glasgow, EDI is at least as easy to get to as GLA.
I have a friend who used to use Emirates even when he lived in Edinburgh. For his current trip he flew with Qatar - even though he now lives in Helensburgh! Emirates have a dilemma.

[Planeraz]

I should have made it clear that for most of Scotland, including parts of Glasgow, EDI is at least as easy to get to as GLA.
I have a friend who used to use Emirates even when he lived in Edinburgh. For his current trip he flew with Qatar - even though he now lives in Helensburgh! Emirates have a dilemma.

The issue for Emirates is that one of their biggest competitors is growing quicker and transporting bigger number of pax from Scotland’s main airport. QR offer more seats and easier connection options from EDI. QR offer better cargo options to give another example. For these reasons and not limited to, in my opinion, EK will return to EDI.

[Breathe]

New retail units to open at the airport.

Edinburgh Airport to launch new Scottish fashion, gift shops

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24130085.edinburgh-airport-launch-new-scottish-fashion-gift-shops/

A Scottish airport is to launch three new retail outlets.

Edinburgh Airport said it is to open “distinct Scottish” outlets that include fashion and gifting expected early next year.

“As Scotland’s busiest airport we see tens of thousands of people travel through every day, whether for business or leisure, and we offer a unique retail opportunity for them by providing choice and variety,” the airport said.

“Our campus is also home to 5,000 employees working across 100 different companies - so we're a great place to do business if you're seeking commercial opportunities.”

The airport web post continued: “We work with leading passenger lounges, retail and food and beverage operators to provide a strong international offering and market range.

“Our strategy of delivering sustainable growth through choice offers our passengers the best possible range and diverse selection of retail products, lounges and services.”

It added: “We have three distinct Scottish retail opportunities available from Q1 2025 in our international departure lounge.

"The competitive bid for these opportunities will be released in March 2024.

"The three opportunities are: Premium Scottish Gifting - 76 sqm sales area; Premium Scottish Fashion - 74 sqm sales area; and Scottish Souvenirs - 113 sqm sales area.”

Last month the airport told travellers Starbucks was to be taken over by Black Sheep Coffee.

[mrk7474]

The issue for Emirates is that one of their biggest competitors is growing quicker and transporting bigger number of pax from Scotland’s main airport. QR offer more seats and easier connection options from EDI. QR offer better cargo options to give another example. For these reasons and not limited to, in my opinion, EK will return to EDI.

I too think EK will return to EDI, as for timeframe who knows but personally I see them using the A350. The 777 I think is too much plane otherwise they probably would have brought it back by now, as surely they're not too happy about giving up more space to QR. A350 still carries good cargo and less pax than 777 so is probably a better fit. Either that, whenever they get the 787s I also wouldn't be surprised to see them in EDI. They'd eventually be able to offer double daily to EDI with A350 / 787

[Planeraz]

EDI Hotel

A new airport hotel approved and works already under way.

https://www.sandmansignature.co.uk/new-properties

[nighthawk117]

It's a bit close to the animal feed place... might be a bit smelly...

[Donkey497]

The noted less than 30 minutes from Edinburgh city centre is maybe a bit misleading. I'm about 20 miles west & I can be in Edinburgh city centre by public transport (even) in less than 30 minutes..... [on a goood day, with fair wind etc...]

[Planeraz]

Lufthansa S24

LH making some changes to aircraft operating the daily Munich service. Service will be operated by a mixture of leased Air Baltic A220, Lufthansa City and mainline aircraft.

[GeorgeNTravels]

As part of network wide changes the following routes will be impacted from Edinburgh, all information taken from AeroRoutes (https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/240227-lmns24)


Edinburgh – Bergen Reduce from 6 to 4 weekly (6 weekly in second half of August)

Edinburgh – Exeter Reduce from 12 to 7 weekly

Edinburgh – Kirkwall Increase from 17 to 18 weekly

Edinburgh – Newquay Increase from 3 to 4 weekly

Edinburgh – Southampton Reduce from 30 to 26 weekly

[Planeraz]

QR

Ahead of departing EDI this morning en-route to LHR, a member of perm staff who I know well and trust was chatting to me re the proposed terminal expansion etc. Look out for firm planning applications in the near future. The subject of QR’s success was also brought up. The EDI route is currently seeing exceptionally high demand for this time of year and they are having no problem at all filling two A350’s. The onward bookings are also well ahead of projections. I’m led to believe they are actively considering the previously rumoured third daily or upgrading one of the services to a larger capacity aircraft. I assume this would be the 773? One to watch.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Lufthansa S24

LH making some changes to aircraft operating the daily Munich service. Service will be operated by a mixture of leased Air Baltic A220, Lufthansa City and mainline aircraft.
Lufthansa City or Lufthansa CityLine? Confusing I know but two different companies. When I checked and tweeted it last week it was CityLine.

[Planeraz]

Lufthansa City or Lufthansa CityLine? Confusing I know but two different companies. When I checked and tweeted it last week it was CityLine.

Cityline.

[Breathe]

QR

Ahead of departing EDI this morning en-route to LHR, a member of perm staff who I know well and trust was chatting to me re the proposed terminal expansion etc. Look out for firm planning applications in the near future. The subject of QR’s success was also brought up. The EDI route is currently seeing exceptionally high demand for this time of year and they are having no problem at all filling two A350’s. The onward bookings are also well ahead of projections. I’m led to believe they are actively considering the previously rumoured third daily or upgrading one of the services to a larger capacity aircraft. I assume this would be the 773? One to watch.
Interesting chat. I assume there isn't any news about Emirates potentially restarting in the summer?

[willy wombat]

I think it’s quite well known that Emirates are short of aircraft so I think their appearance at EDI or a second daily at GLA is unlikely this summer.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I think it’s quite well known that Emirates are short of aircraft so I think their appearance at EDI or a second daily at GLA is unlikely this summer.
Crews surely? They have a load of A380s still parked at DWC

[A350Saltire]

Crews surely? They have a load of A380s still parked at DWC

Yeah agree they are struggling to recruit enough crews and until they can their expansion will be slower than they want. One thing is for sure though, QR’s ongoing success at EDI will not have gone unnoticed by EK. I just wonder how they will try and address it.

From a QR perspective I agree that a 777 on one of the rotations is a more likely first step rather than a third daily rotation (if they have a 777 they could allocate to the route - I’d hope it wouldnt be one of the ex Virgin Australia ones that MAN saw as the onboard product is less impressive than the standard QR ones and certainly worse than the A350).

[Sk1schoolsam]

Yeah agree they are struggling to recruit enough crews and until they can their expansion will be slower than they want. One thing is for sure though, QR’s ongoing success at EDI will not have gone unnoticed by EK. I just wonder how they will try and address it.

From a QR perspective I agree that a 777 on one of the rotations is a more likely first step rather than a third daily rotation (if they have a 777 they could allocate to the route - I’d hope it wouldnt be one of the ex Virgin Australia ones that MAN saw as the onboard product is less impressive than the standard QR ones and certainly worse than the A350).

Or perhaps deploy a B789 or 351 on one of the 2 daily rotations which both have larger capacity than the A350-9?
(ahead of adding a third flight per day)

[A350Saltire]

I believe a brand new UA A321Neo has stopped in at EDI this morning on its way from Hamburg to the US. These will probably be a common sight at EDI in the coming years.

Aircraft is N14507

[SWBKCB]

Anybody know why the 321 pitched up in EDI?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I believe a brand new UA A321Neo has stopped in at EDI this morning on its way from Hamburg to the US. These will probably be a common sight at EDI in the coming years.

Aircraft is N14507
Isn't the US market meant to be suppled from aircraft assembled in Mobile, AL? Or I guess they don't have the capacity required given the order volume. NWA used to send A320/A319s TLS-PIK-YYR- on delivery, never quite worked out why they needed to stop in Scotland at all given United's A320s never fuel stopped before Canada.

[A350Saltire]

Isn't the US market meant to be suppled from aircraft assembled in Mobile, AL? Or I guess they don't have the capacity required given the order volume. NWA used to send A320/A319s TLS-PIK-YYR- on delivery, never quite worked out why they needed to stop in Scotland at all given United's A320s never fuel stopped before Canada.

Apparently there will be one calling at EDI every month on its way from Germany to the US.

[Planeraz]

Westjet S24

Halifax route extended to 14th October. Remains 3 x weekly. Credit PM.

[A350Saltire]

FR adding WMI I think at 2x per week.

POZ also going from 3x to 4x per week.

credit: SeanM on X

[inOban]

AIR that the absence of flights to WMI was a result of a dispute between FR and Warsaw? Who blinked?

[GeorgeNTravels]

This should hopefully be the last of the changes for Summer 2024, but some rather unusual changes for Ryanair, especially on Marseille, full list of frequencies below. The first figure is the April figure with any mid season changes shown in brackets. There is also a summary at the bottom of the list.

AGA - 2 Weekly
ALC - 6 Weekly (rises to 7 weekly in July)
BCN - 9 Weekly (rises to 11 weekly in June)
BRI - 2 Weekly
BFS - 13 Weekly
EGC - 2 Weekly
BER - 8 Weekly (reduces to 7 weekly in June)
BZR - 2 Weekly
BIQ - 2 Weekly
BLL - 3 Weekly (rises to 4 weekly in June)
BLQ - 4 Weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in June, returns to 4 weekly in October)
BOD - 4 Weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in June)
BOH - 4 Weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in June)
BTS - 2 Weekly
CRL - 9 Weekly (reduces to 8 weekly in June)
OTP - 2 Weekly
BUD - 7* Weekly (reduces to 6 weekly in June) *There is an 0825 Ryanair Sun flight on Thursdays currently showing as "Sold Out", this has not been counted
CPH - 10 Weekly (reduces to 9 weekly in June)
CFU - 1 Weekly
ORK - 7 Weekly
DUB - 31 Weekly (reduces to 29 weekly in June)
NRN - 6 Weekly
EIN - 2 Weekly
FAO - 6 Weekly
FUE - 2 Weekly
GDN - 3 Weekly (rises to 5 weekly in June)
LPA - 2 Weekly (rises to 3 weekly in June)
GOT - 2 Weekly
HAM - 4 Weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in June)
IBZ - 2 Weekly
KUN - 2 Weekly (rises to 3 weekly in October)
NOC - 2 Weekly
KRK - 5 Weekly (reduces to 4 weekly in June)
ACE - 4 Weekly
LIS - 3 Weekly
STN - 21 Weekly
MAD - 5 Weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in June)
AGP - 7 Weekly (reduces to 6 weekly in June)
MLA - 2 Weekly (rises to 3 weekly in June)
RAK - 2 Weekly
MRS - 4 Weekly in April, 5 weekly in May, 4 weekly in June-August, 3 weekly September & October
BGY - 7 Weekly (reduces to 6 weekly in June)
NTE - 3 Weekly (reduces to 2 weekly in June)
NAP - 3 Weekly
NQY - 2 Weekly
PMO - 2 Weekly
PMI - 8 Weekly (reduces to 7 weekly in June)
BVA - 5 Weekly (rises to 6 weekly in June)
PSA - 5 Weekly (is 4 weekly for the first 3 weeks of April)
PIS - 2 Weekly
OPO - 3 Weekly
POZ - 5 Weekly (reduces to 4 weekly in June)
PRG - 5 Weekly (reduces to 4 weekly in June)
RHO - 2 Weekly
RIX - 4 Weekly (reduces to 3 weekly in June)
CIA - 6 Weekly (Might reduce to 5 weekly from June, there is a "Sold Out" flight showing on Saturdays being operated by Malta Air at 0840)
SDR - 3 Weekly (reduces to 2 weekly in June)
SVQ - 3 Weekly
SNN - 2 Weekly (rises to 3 weekly in June)
SOF - 3 Weekly
TFS - 5 Weekly (rises to 6 weekly in June)
TIA - 2 Weekly
TLS - 2 Weekly (rises to 3 weekly in June)
VLC - 2 Weekly
VCE - 3 Weekly
WMI - 2 Weekly
WRO - 2 Weekly
ZAD - 2 Weekly

SUMMARY OF CHANGES

Barcelona gains an additional flight throughout the season, but keeps its change in June
Bologna loses a flight between June and September
Budapest gained an additional flight in April and May, and there could be another flight added as well
Copenhagen gains an additional flight throughout the season, but keeps its change in June
Faro gains an additional flight
Gdansk loses 2 flights in April and May
Malaga gains a flight in April and May
Marseille gains 2 flights in May and 1 in June-August
Bergamo gains a flight in April and May
Nantes gains a flight in April and May
Paris gains an additional flight throughout the season, but keeps its change in June
Poznan gains an additional flight throughout the season but keeps its change in June
Rome might lose a flight from June
Warsaw not loaded at 2 weekly


Week Commencing April 1st Departures = 309
Week Commencing July 1st Departures = 301

[GeorgeNTravels]

3 EDI updates I found early this morning and posted to X, Aer Lingus are also upping DUB flights this summer with the A320 added into the schedule for a morning flight every day.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x461/sn_e65801be9e8bd8243bb71a196afe3161d6d86057.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x815/sas_and_edelweiss_e12c443ae344544a4918857b4957137b82e75638.p ng

[inOban]

Re. the Aer Lingus upscale. I think that this used to be the case before Covid. It's the flight which will carry many of the PAX transferring to longhaul at DUB.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Re. the Aer Lingus upscale. I think that this used to be the case before Covid. It's the flight which will carry many of the PAX transferring to longhaul at DUB.

I did also see a comment last year when it operated saying the ATR would struggle with baggage on that flight, with particular mention made of golf clubs.

[GayFriendly]

Brussels Airlines seem to be having a UK re-think....BHX flights have been removed from sale from end of this month but are on sale again from end of Oct. Perhaps EDI becomes summer seasonal and BHX winter seasonal? Don't know what EDI loads are like but BHX were fair to middling since COVID and dare I say it, Brexit. Before COVID we had 3, sometimes 4 flights a day to BRU albeit on ARJ as opposed to Airbus

[XSBaggage]

Brussels Airlines seem to be having a UK re-think....BHX flights have been removed from sale from end of this month but are on sale again from end of Oct. Perhaps EDI becomes summer seasonal and BHX winter seasonal? Don't know what EDI loads are like but BHX were fair to middling since COVID and dare I say it, Brexit. Before COVID we had 3, sometimes 4 flights a day to BRU albeit on ARJ as opposed to Airbus
It is strange because Brussels Airlines flights appear on Lufthansa's website when making connections to EDI from other places in Europe, but more often than not Lufthansa's own flights are cheaper and with better connections than the Brussels flights. BRU is pretty good for transferring too, nice easy airport. But with their parent company outpricing them they don't have much chance!

[RA85684]

Agreed, I did NCL-BRU-LIN/VCE-BRU-NCL back in 2016 when it was Bmir E135's out of NCL and I found the whole experience very pleasant. I'd love to be able to use BRU as a hub again out of NCL, especially if the price was as good as it was back then. Our WDL Bae146 rocked up to VCE 3 hours late so we missed our connection home, the staff at BRU were very friendly and accommodating, put us up in a 5 star airport hotel for the night and rang ahead for them to keep the kitchen open for us. They even put us on the evening BRU-NCL instead of the morning one so we could enjoy a day in Brussels (at our request, of course). Good memories.

[Planeraz]

QR

Is QR making some changes or it could just be a website blip? From 10th March onwards, all the afternoon departures are showing as sold out or not available. Both flights from Doha continue to be available. I wonder…

First14:10 EDI

https://www.qatarairways.com/content/dam/images/icons/flight/ic_nav_qatar_airways.svg
Non-stop, 6h 40m
23:50DOH

Flight details
Economy
Not available
Business
Not available
First
£5,304

[GeorgeNTravels]

QR

Is QR making some changes or it could just be a website blip? From 10th March onwards, all the afternoon departures are showing as sold out or not available. Both flights from Doha continue to be available. I wonder…

First14:10EDI

https://www.qatarairways.com/content/dam/images/icons/flight/ic_nav_qatar_airways.svg
Non-stop, 6h 40m23:50DOH

Flight details
Economy
Not available
Business
Not available
First
£5,304
Looks like it's fixed now, still loaded at 2 daily with A350-900

[VickersVicount]

oh… is that it?

[GeorgeNTravels]

Total Passenger Numbers in Jan 2024: 894,763 (+9%)

Market Breakdown for Scheduled Pax Below;

Domestic: 320,935 (+22.5%)
EU: 462,035 (-2.8%)
NON-EU: 107,700 (+33.5%)

[Planeraz]

January 2024

Qatar smashing it again. New record high number of pax - 32,839. +120% on January 2023. Also beating Dec 23 total of 32,013.

Newark with United also performed strongly. 8,949. + 11% on January 2023.

Easyjet to Keflavik also carried more pax than Icelandair to/from Glasgow.

[GeorgeNTravels]

January 2024

Qatar smashing it again. New record high number of pax - 32,839. +120% on January 2023. Also beating Dec 23 total of 32,013.

Newark with United also performed strongly. 8,949. + 11% on January 2023.

Easyjet to Keflavik also carried more pax than Icelandair to/from Glasgow.

easyJet usually carries more January that FI so not exclusive to this year.

Jet2 Iceland program also needs to be considered

[inOban]

January 2024

Qatar smashing it again. New record high number of pax - 32,839. +120% on January 2023. Also beating Dec 23 total of 32,013.

Newark with United also performed strongly. 8,949. + 11% on January 2023.

Easyjet to Keflavik also carried more pax than Icelandair to/from Glasgow.
But with Delta pausing, the number of pax to New York is down.