Edinburgh-4

[GoEDI]

It's not beyond the wit of man to park an A330 across two remote stands down by the GAT surely? Or does fuselage length then come into play? Or is that lack of staff once again?

It's been done as a one off ie when the QR A35K was damaged, but I presume it's a no go for a regular scheduled service. Code E aircraft ground movement is restricted as per the below chart:

https://nats-uk.ead-it.com/cms-nats/export/sites/default/en/Publications/AIP/Current-AIRAC/graphics/321390.pdf

[NotanAVGeek]

And EDI not without its own inbound ATC slot delays too.

Seems to be happening more and more aswell, yesterday arrivals were restricted due to a taxiway requiring urgent repair for the duration of the afternoon. Same thing happened last week too albeit that was at night where it was a bit easier to manage the traffic flow.

An earlier post hit the nail on the head, it’s easy to blame the ground handlers but it’s everyone. I’ve never known the fuellers to struggle as much as they are this year. Wheelchair assistance has went ‘in house’ after years of changing handling company and yet I’d say it’s a worse service than it’s been for a long time.

Everyday starts with a clean slate but then airlines have crewing issues often caused by delays the previous day, aircrafts don’t make it back due to runway repairs in the night leading to diversions, long haul aircraft coming in very early into first wave, then after first wave if you’ve dodged a slot outbound it’ll hit you inbound and so the cycle begins, aircrafts sometimes 5-6 at a time all landed with no stands resulting in a last minute dash across the apron (especially if a widebody is delayed), ramp agents or staff to disembark the flight are then late to arrive which then delays them further while their next flight then is on approach. That flight then waits ages on steps or a jetbridge due to the previous flight. If you have assistance passengers it’s not uncommon to wait 30 min + for the ambulift truck, or the assistance staff are stuck over an hour in the arrivals hall waiting on luggage that can’t be offloaded. Fuellers running out of fuel after every widebody.

It’s a horrific cycle and a poor way to operate. Thus damaging the reputation of the Airport, the ground handling teams, not to mention staff welfare and morale. Those that do come to work then get abuse from understandably irate passengers.

I’ve never known the Aviation industry to be this bad. Above is a daily occurrence, and that’s actually one of the better days.

It’s fantastic to see so many new routes and a wonderful variety of Airlines, terrific for the spotters but I can’t see it getting better anytime soon.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's been done as a one off ie when the QR A35K was damaged, but I presume it's a no go for a regular scheduled service. Code E aircraft ground movement is restricted as per the below chart:

https://nats-uk.ead-it.com/cms-nats/export/sites/default/en/Publications/AIP/Current-AIRAC/graphics/321390.pdf
Ah me being daft, I literally have a copy of that chart. Thanks for sharing!

[Sk1schoolsam]

May 23

Pax total for May was 1,289,223. Up 21% on May 2022.

Qatar performed strongly again as did TK and DL to JFK in particular.

Some approx LF’s.

Westjet

Calgary - 94%

United

Newark - 95%
Chicago - 94%
Washington - 94%

Delta

JFK - 98%
Boston - 96%

Turkish

Istanbul - 93%

Qatar

Doha - 96%
Thanks for sharing- impressive load factors for these routes

Out of interest to complete the set so you have ATL?

Still trying to figure out which 2 TALA are struggling commercially and may not be back….

[Planeraz]

Thanks for sharing- impressive load factors for these routes

Out of interest to complete the set so you have ATL?

Still trying to figure out which 2 TALA are struggling commercially and may not be back….

Apologies. Missed ATL.

2565 pax or 97%

All routes are currently on sale for 2024 so I’ll take the positives in this.

[Planeraz]

UA S24

United double daily - EWR resumes 23rd May. On sale now.

[inOban]

That May total is still almost 100,000 below May 2019.

[Sk1schoolsam]

That May total is still almost 100,000 below May 2019.

Interesting- what routes are gone or reduced to be 100,000 seats down on 2019?

[SWBKCB]

From a very quick look appears to be domestic and short haul - top six destinations from 2019 are all down - LHR 20k, STN 20k, LGW 20k, AMS 10k, DUB 5k, LCY 10k

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Interesting- what routes are gone or reduced to be 100,000 seats down on 2019?
A fair amount of business travel just didn't come back. The business/leisure mix has not shifted back to where it was.

[GSM763]

A fair amount of business travel just didn't come back. The business/leisure mix has not shifted back to where it was.
BA pulling Gatwick which was 3-4x daily won't have helped.

[Planeraz]

A fair amount of business travel just didn't come back. The business/leisure mix has not shifted back to where it was.

Yet business travel in the US is expected to recover or surpass 2019 totals by the end of 2023. Contrast this to Scotland and Sturgeons desperate attempts to destroy the aviation sector during the pandemic with crippling and extended restrictions. Had she got her way, the country would only recently be coming out of lockdown along with her comrades in China.

[inOban]

When I ferreting out the data from May 2019 I confidently expected that the geeks in pprune would get to work! And you didn't disappoint. Even the latest post was entirely predictable.

[Planeraz]

When I ferreting out the data from May 2019 I confidently expected that the geeks in pprune would get to work! And you didn't disappoint. Even the latest post was entirely predictable.

I suspect the thousands of people in the aviation sector alone, who lost their job as a result of the politically motivated restrictions would not disagree with my point of view…

[inOban]

I spent my working life as a biomedical scientist and teacher and I won't waste my time debating you. It's definitely OT.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Interesting- what routes are gone or reduced to be 100,000 seats down on 2019?

International wise routes to Burgas, Luxembourg, Tallinn, Memmingen, Karlsruhe, Stuttgart, Almeria, Bilbao, Beijing, Dubai are missing completely (either cut or starting after the end of May)

Furthermore routes like Prague reduced from 14.5k in May 2019 to 6.7k in 2023

[Planeraz]

2019-2023

Post July should give a better idea where numbers sit compared to 2019. Qatar going 14 x weekly from July along with Hainan and other frequency increases from Norwegian for example will bump up numbers. The American and Canadian market is very strong as we have already seen. Westjet appear to be doing well despite some initial scepticism. BA have also returned to near 2019 levels although they are cancelling a few flights on a regular basis. A monthly total in the region of 1.5m would be a good result and broadly in line with peak summer 2019.

[SWBKCB]

It’s a horrific cycle and a poor way to operate. Thus damaging the reputation of the Airport, the ground handling teams, not to mention staff welfare and morale. Those that do come to work then get abuse from understandably irate passengers.

I’ve never known the Aviation industry to be this bad. Above is a daily occurrence, and that’s actually one of the better days.

Sounds like my time in Servisair at Manchester 40 years ago, and I bet there aren't the number of 'assistance' passengers we used to get off a Wardair (usually double figures, think the record was over 30...).

Made loads on overtime :ok:

[TartinTon]

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Must be some sort of programmer humour....

[edistevie]

30000 mtrs of PQ concrete for airside, If I recall they were supposedly to concrete between the cargo ramps to the new stands, then again it could be anywhere, should find out soon enough.


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[VickersVicount]

Sounds like my time in Servisair at Manchester 40 years ago, and I bet there aren't the number of 'assistance' passengers we used to get off a Wardair (usually double figures, think the record was over 30...).

Made loads on overtime :ok:
The Winter tenerifes are worse than that… they should have an onboard medic and wheelchair mechanic. And you ought to see an Indian or Pakistani flight LHR, more like how many DONT think they need assistance. Id say it was worse now…

[NotanAVGeek]

Or the Lourdes charter flights

[GoEDI]

30000 mtrs of PQ concrete for airside, If I recall they were supposedly to concrete between the cargo ramps to the new stands, then again it could be anywhere, should find out soon enough.

Could just be related to this? Although that does sound like a lot of concrete...

Echo Taxiway Rehabilitation (Value £4m) The Echo taxiway rehabilitation project has passed through TG2. A temporary relocation of the taxiway centreline will be completed in Q1 2023 to mitigate further damage to the pavement concrete along the centreline. Full scale removal and reinstatement of the taxiway is scheduled for winter 23-24 after design has completed.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/2hwzhse7szu0/76rB86KREp4qz6yvsADWJJ/65a2ff07d4e334f3967f1b048fb336f6/2023_Q1_EACC_report.pdf

[Planeraz]

A very rare visitor due in around 12:40 today. AirX A343. Possibly a first time visitor to EDI? Departing 18:40 this evening to Newark carrying the Manchester United football team.

[GrahamK]

Any sign of Edinburgh getting the luggage situation under control yet? Surprised its not been highlighted much in the media yet?

[TankEngineStar]

Any sign of Edinburgh getting the luggage situation under control yet? Surprised its not been highlighted much in the media yet?
Arrived on Monday in the afternoon, and no trolleys available at domestic baggage at 15:30.
Not good when you have 6 cases and bags to move to the car-park.

The amount of baggage lying about the place was shocking. An Easyjet flight had been waiting for 40 mins on their bags.
Anyone could just take a few extra of the bags lying about. Outside the exit to the domestic arrivals it looked like a make shift holding area for luggage has been made.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Arrived on Monday in the afternoon, and no trolleys available at domestic baggage at 15:30.
Not good when you have 6 cases and bags to move to the car-park.

The amount of baggage lying about the place was shocking. An Easyjet flight had been waiting for 40 mins on their bags.
Anyone could just take a few extra of the bags lying about. Outside the exit to the domestic arrivals it looked like a make shift holding area for luggage has been made.

I appreciate this looks bad for the airport- and yes perhaps they can do more, but to the untrained eye this issue is fundamentally an issue of the airlines and their HUB airports inability to transfer bags between terminals in time to catch the domestic flights.
That’s not to say the ground handling agents aren’t under resourced baggage at EDI but bags arriving on different flights from their passengers is not here fault.
Also there is the issue of not enough taxis and drivers to deliver bags to passengers post COVID.

[Planeraz]

Both UA services from EWR last night operated by a 763. UA161 didn’t appear to have been a last minute swap out as the flight departed pretty much on time. The planned 752 may have gone tech or been delayed elsewhere. UA36 was showing as a 763 from Monday so perhaps a few extra seats were required to satisfy demand.

[Breathe]

I doubt they’d be pushing for that given current issues and recent negative publicity…
Surely Gordon Dewar wouldn't want to miss out on another opportunity to show that he's prepared to go "into the trenches" when the airport is busy. :)

See 8m10s:

https://youtu.be/jca20USsgYI?t=490

[NotanAVGeek]

Surely Gordon Dewar wouldn't want to miss out on another opportunity to show that he's prepared to go "into the trenches" when the airport is busy. :)

See 8m10s:

https://youtu.be/jca20USsgYI?t=490

Watching that video and it’s only got worse 😂

Gordon Dewar has been helping in security quite a lot at the peak times.

[GayFriendly]

Sadly not a problem exclusive to EDI. Landed at BHX last Saturday afternoon at 16.45 off a Jet2 flight, passport control was busy but surprisingly quick, bags however took 50 minutes 🙄 a fair few other flights waiting for lengthy times too and this was (luckily) after the EK 380 and QR 787 pax had cleared through.

I don't think either airport has the sufficient infrastructure in place to cope with these heavy peak flows, but with the huge expansion in long haul ops at EDI this summer, probably the issue is more pronounced there?

[Rutan16]

Both UA services from EWR last night operated by a 763. UA161 didn’t appear to have been a last minute swap out as the flight departed pretty much on time. The planned 752 may have gone tech or been delayed elsewhere. UA36 was showing as a 763 from Monday so perhaps a few extra seats were required to satisfy demand.

N670UA which operated the second flight is premium heavy and has 2 Fewer seats than the scheduled 757 !

Combined there were the potential for 43 extra over both flight however doubt they sold that .

Really just a clear indication of the dire reliability of the remain 757s - They need to go from the Atlantic soonest

[Planeraz]

N670UA which operated the second flight is premium heavy and has 2 Fewer seats than the scheduled 757 !

Combined there were the potential for 43 extra over both flight however doubt they sold that .

Really just a clear indication of the dire reliability of the remain 757s - They need to go from the Atlantic soonest

Looking at the pax figures, J on both flights were sold out. A few upgrades as well probably. Four free economy seats between both flights. UA36, this evening is also a 763. The 752’s are increasingly unreliable, so I agree with you on that front. As has been commented on previously, United have a decision to make as to what metal will operate in the next year or so. Large 787 and 321XLR orders but delivery delays to boot.

[Rutan16]

Looking at the pax figures, J on both flights were sold out. A few upgrades as well probably. Four free economy seats between both flights. UA36, this evening is also a 763. The 752’s are increasingly unreliable, so I agree with you on that front. As has been commented on previously, United have a decision to make as to what metal will operate in the next year or so. Large 787 and 321XLR orders but delivery delays to boot.

”sold out” does not mean what you think here .

There will have been some upgrades sure enough.

They will have closed at the rate of the scheduled flight ie the 757

[armychap_007]

Sadly not a problem exclusive to EDI. Landed at BHX last Saturday afternoon at 16.45 off a Jet2 flight, passport control was busy but surprisingly quick, bags however took 50 minutes 🙄 a fair few other flights waiting for lengthy times too and this was (luckily) after the EK 380 and QR 787 pax had cleared through.

I don't think either airport has the sufficient infrastructure in place to cope with these heavy peak flows, but with the huge expansion in long haul ops at EDI this summer, probably the issue is more pronounced there?

I would sincerely hope that the QR 787 passengers had received their baggage by 16:45 on a Saturday- the flight is scheduled to land at 07:30 on Saturday mornings! (According to Flight Radar 24 it landed at 07:44)

[Planeraz]

BA W23

Increasing from 71 to 77 per week. Sources reporting that BA plan to use a 788 on one of the rotations. Let’s see if this turns out to be correct!
The planned increases will bring BA back to pre pandemic levels.

[Rutan16]

BA W23

Increasing from 71 to 77 per week. Sources reporting that BA plan to use a 788 on one of the rotations. Let’s see if this turns out to be correct!
The planned increases will bring BA back to pre pandemic levels.

Why abuse a 788 on a short capital to capital hop (BTW 4 fewer seats than the 321 NEO !)

Where is the extra near daily from City or Heathrow ?

Planeraz noted a theme at all? the smaller widebodies don’t deliver massive uplift (indeed regularly lower seat numbers) than the 757/321 through admittedly do provide for extra pallet space .

In the case of BA many moons ago this fact was instrumental in their decision to buy the 757 over competing A310 and earlier 767-200s-they didn't need the pallet space at the time and the performance was advantageous for of some of Europes shorter runways - Monarch also identified this little fact!

[CabinCrewe]

Why abuse a 788 on a short capital to capital hop (BTW 4 fewer seats than the 321 NEO !)
It can often be due to aircraft availability at that time, was sometimes seen in Winter timetables with even the non-Euro 767-300’s (although if I recall they did offer capacity uplift even with CW seating).
Think LCY from EDI frequency cut for W23

[Rutan16]

It can often be due to aircraft availability at that time, was sometimes seen in Winter timetables with even the non-Euro 767-300’s (although if I recall they did offer capacity uplift even with CW seating).
Think LCY from EDI frequency cut for W23

Well aware BA has deployed the 767 and prior Tristar on Edinburgh - Heathrow and when they actually had a genuine shuttle product . Hay they even flew one Tristar service to Aberdeen in a differing life !

The point making wasn’t the use ( abuse) of the Dreamliner per say rather the implication that it would be a capacity uplift ( it won’t) through it might give some juvenile pilots a few hours I suppose.

So is the extra just a restoration of aHeathrow rotation then ?

Also do remember BA “sold out” rarely means full to capacity with numerous and varied middle seats blocked for the full fare payers indeed upto 24 on a 320 and 28 on a 321 NEO can be blocked out and still be “sold out”

[inOban]

They wouldn't be planning to restart LGW?

[Breathe]

It would be good to see the BA LGW service come back. I think GLA is BA's only domestic LGW service that survived during the lockdown cull.

[Planeraz]

It would be good to see the BA LGW service come back. I think GLA is BA's only domestic LGW service that survived during the lockdown cull.

Agree. EasyJet have had it too easy on this route. Definitely need some competition.

[Asturias56]

be careful what you wish for. BA have zero serious commitment to anything at LGW

[CabinCrewe]

BA have zero serious commitment to anything at LGW Except GLA-LGW 😂

[Planeraz]

Turkish

TK increasing capacity in next few weeks, A333 replacing A321 on several dates starting from tomorrow. Inbound particularly busy with economy sold out on many dates.

[Planeraz]

Qatar

QR also continue to perform very strongly. Inbound and outbound in next few weeks is very solidly booked in both cabins. Edinburgh festival traffic I assume is a factor.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Qatar

QR also continue to perform very strongly. Inbound and outbound in next few weeks is very solidly booked in both cabins. Edinburgh festival traffic I assume is a factor.

Good news- curious why they have not put a 789 or A350 on at least one of the daily rotations?
it’s not until W23 until we see an increased capacity on 1 of 2 flights.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Except GLA-LGW 😂
This survived to rotate A320s through the Glasgow hangar for maintenance but is no longer operated by LGW based aircraft and crew so not sure what the rationale is anymore.

[Planeraz]

Good news- curious why they have not put a 789 or A350 on at least one of the daily rotations?
it’s not until W23 until we see an increased capacity on 1 of 2 flights.

2 x daily 788’s in both directions equates to approx 30,480 seats per month. With LF’s consistently 95% + for some time now, based on this LF, the route could realise a pax total in the region of 28,596 for July. A pretty impressive performance. 2 x daily 788’s in both directions appears to be about right capacity wise. With QR and TK enjoying bumper totals, aircraft availability allowing, surely it’s only a matter of time before EK make a return to EDI?

[GeorgeNTravels]

This survived to rotate A320s through the Glasgow hangar for maintenance but is no longer operated by LGW based aircraft and crew so not sure what the rationale is anymore.

biggest thing keeping this route at GLA is a daily connection onto BA’s Orlando flight. During the summer BA themselves can fill it and during the winter TUI take seats on it.

[GeorgeNTravels]

2 x daily 788’s in both directions equates to approx 30,480 seats per month. With LF’s consistently 95% + for some time now, based on this LF, the route could realise a pax total in the region of 28,596 for July. A pretty impressive performance. 2 x daily 788’s in both directions appears to be about right capacity wise. With QR and TK enjoying bumper totals, aircraft availability allowing, surely it’s only a matter of time before EK make a return to EDI?

the thing to remember with EK is they are globally struggling to recruit and train their crew at the levels they need.

plus with some A380’s still stored and now additional repairs requiring them to fly to Toulouse for maintenance they don’t have their pre-covid fleet available but have above pre-covid demand - this isn’t conjecture EDI management have themselves said that EK don’t have the fleet and that their own goals of attracting them back have been missed.

when this is factored into a global airline decisions will need to be made about where to serve. With a daily A380 into GLA and a 777 into NCL and then QR at EDI it has slipped down the priority list.

[tictack67]

This survived to rotate A320s through the Glasgow hangar for maintenance but is no longer operated by LGW based aircraft and crew so not sure what the rationale is anymore.

Could it be getting assistance by means of a bung from Gla Apt to keep a route to any sort of hub given a gaps in connectivity before 1435hrs

This morning by 9am Glasgow will have had 29 departures, by 0715 Edi will have had 29 departures.

[VickersVicount]

renowned as Mickey Mouse express and very much about Orlando (plus some other) connections.

[chaps1954]

Bookings for Disney etc is in freefall due to the costs

[VickersVicount]

Bookings for Disney etc is in freefall due to the costs
Virgin at EDI won’t like that then- though we are assured by commentators its rammed to the gunnels on a leisure config A351.
Often a route that weathers most storms mind you, so not sure I’d be rearranging any schedules around that. Think BA are now double daily MCO at LGW.

[Wycombe]

Virgin at EDI won’t like that then- though we are assured by commentators its rammed to the gunnels on a leisure config A351.
Often a route that weathers most storms mind you, so not sure I’d be rearranging any schedules around that. Think BA are now double daily MCO at LGW.
Storms of both the real and economic varieties, as anyone who goes to MCO at this time of year will know!

Yes, BA double daily from LGW (772) at present and Norse (789) now daily also.

[ATNotts]

Storms of both the real and economic varieties, as anyone who goes to MCO at this time of year will know!

Yes, BA double daily from LGW (772) at present and Norse (789) now daily also.
Nobody with any sense goes to Florida between July and mid November.

Fortunately for Florida Tourism, the UK tour operators and airlines there are plenty of Brits with no sense!

[QEC]

This survived to rotate A320s through the Glasgow hangar for maintenance but is no longer operated by LGW based aircraft and crew so not sure what the rationale is anymore.

Er, demand?

[Wycombe]

Nobody with any sense goes to Florida between July and mid November.

So, myself and my extended family group of 11 have no sense because we went in September last year :rolleyes:

We've been at that time of year before and as long as you know what to expect and plan that there might be a big storm mid/late afternoon every day (which there was on all but 1 day of the 14 we were there!), it's fine and we still had a great holiday.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Er, demand?
The wider context that it's only once daily (down from 3/4) and they dropped LGW-ABZ/EDI/NCL/JER and INV in the last few years. Every other LGW short haul route is going to be operated by BA EUROFLYER, this is a single BA mainline LGW service on a W rotation from LHR, so yeah, "demand" isn't quite the zinger you thought.

[Planeraz]

Qatar W23

The A359 is reported to be coming back to EDI. 14 x weekly maintained as previously announced. Good news.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230802-qrnw23

[Asturias56]

Nobody with any sense goes to Florida between July and mid November.

Fortunately for Florida Tourism, the UK tour operators and airlines there are plenty of Brits with no sense!

Same with Malta, Crete and anywhere else in the Med in June- August - you have to go when th kids are out of school. Older, wiser folk have the benefit of flexibility

[tictack67]

Virgin at EDI won’t like that then- though we are assured by commentators its rammed to the gunnels on a leisure config A351.
Often a route that weathers most storms mind you, so not sure I’d be rearranging any schedules around that. Think BA are now double daily MCO at LGW.


The Virgin A350-1000 is in 3 class config including upper class

[Planeraz]

Qatar from LAX diverted to EDI short time ago. Declared a full emergency according to reports. Medical emergency?


https://fs.qatarairways.com/flightstatus/search?valueselected=fnumber&flightnumber=740&status_date=01%2F08%2F2023&lang=EN

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The Virgin A350-1000 is in 3 class config including upper class
EDI-MCO is operated by the leisure fleet with only 16 Upper Class seats, there are two subfleets.
C44W56Y235 = 335
C16W56Y325 = 397

[tictack67]

EDI-MCO is operated by the leisure fleet with only 16 Upper Class seats, there are two subfleets.
C44W56Y235 = 335
C16W46Y325 = 397

The fact remains that Virgin full offering is available (upper, premium and economy) and not just an all economy config
The figures are actually 56 Premium economy on both versions.

one could argue a 16 Upperclass cabin is a better experience than a 44 upperclass cabin.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's not a slight, it's not about good or bad. It's that the Disney route and Lagos for example, need a load of Y seats, even W is premium Leisure. There's not much business demand on EDI-MCO, and that's as you'd expect.
Virgin have always offered Upper Class from Scotland, but as with the B744s, they have subfleets with higher % Y.

[VickersVicount]

1980’s charter 757s would be the last carriers I could think of that operated short lived ‘all economy config’ to Florida. But not exactly relevant.

[inOban]

Is that the 350-1000 now continuing to Doha?

[Planeraz]

Is that the 350-1000 (tel:350-1000) now continuing to Doha?

Arrived : 10.24 and Departed 12:07. Relatively short time on the ground. No official reason provided as yet although probable medical emergency or removal of an unruly pax! Unsure if refuelling would have been required?

The captain must have after burners on full pelt and helped by a strong tail wind. Already flying over Romania according to flight radar.

[Breathe]

Good to see the management team prioritising the most important issues facing the airport. :E

Edinburgh Airport expands passenger food and drink offering

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23694980.edinburgh-airport-expands-passenger-food-drink-offering/

A Scottish airport has said it is to increase its passenger food and drink offering.

Edinburgh Airport is expanding its food and beverage outlets for passengers as it "looks to welcome new and exciting brands to the terminal".

The airport is Scotland’s busiest, with more than 14 million passengers expected to pass through this year.

It said six new spaces are available to provide additional options for the airport’s growing passenger base.

The airport also said it is "keen to hear from a diverse range of brands, including local Scottish brands and globally recognised brands, to cater to its diverse passenger mix".

Six opportunities are being released to the market across four categories: "Casual dining, premium bar, fast casual and 'grab and go', with all units expected to be operating and serving passengers by December 2024".

[QEC]

The wider context that it's only once daily (down from 3/4) and they dropped LGW-ABZ/EDI/NCL/JER and INV in the last few years. Every other LGW short haul route is going to be operated by BA EUROFLYER, this is a single BA mainline LGW service on a W rotation from LHR, so yeah, "demand" isn't quite the zinger you thought.

Not sure what "zinger" means but yes, the demand must be there or they'd pull it.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Good to see the management team prioritising the most important issues facing the airport. :E

Edinburgh Airport expands passenger food and drink offering

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23694980.edinburgh-airport-expands-passenger-food-drink-offering/

Every department has its role and objectives to meet and EDI would not be a success with out them.

Will be interesting to see where these new offerings are squeezed in, I suspect some will be landslide. dec 24 timeline so not anytime soon.

Another pot shot at EDI in the Hearld article linked within the same story about customer service- although obviously the airports with less/least passengers scored higher- but it would not do EDI any harm to deal dive into the scores to identify and prioritise areas for improvement.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23693198.glasgow-airport-ahead-edinburgh-airport-inverness-top/

[Albert Hall]

The whole place is operating way beyond its design capacity and the customer experience through check-in and security is probably amongst the worst of any UK airport. Based on a recent trip, I'd prefer to fly through Manchester T3 than Edinburgh at the moment and that's really saying something. The temporary reconfig to sandwich in more and more check-in desks simply doesn't work. It's bedlam and an airport trying to operate way beyond its means.

[willy wombat]

If you go back through this and the previous EDI threads you will find many comments from me on the problems of EDI from a pax perspective. If it was properly coordinated (which includes terminal capacity, not just runway capacity) at least some of the problems could be reduced.

[tallaonejuliet]

Couldn't agree more, but slap on your tin hat for incoming abuse as the Edinburgh luvvies hate anyone putting their airport down!
My heart sinks when I see a EDI itinerary mentioned in my work travels, it is easily one of the UK's worst airports for a positive customer experience.

[NotanAVGeek]

Today was probably one of the worst days in a while, the Airport just felt at breaking point due to the lack of stands for all the traffic.

Granted a QR diverted in with a medical emergency and one Delta 767 went tech and cancelled, another went 5 hours late and I believed returned to stand. It’s maybe unlucky but it highlights the fact more the Airport cannot cope. The passenger experience is probably the worst it’s ever been, staff morale is on its knees, I’d never recommend anyone flying from here at the minute and I’m a big fan of EDI so don’t wish to sound negative.

[GoEDI]

Today was probably one of the worst days in a while, the Airport just felt at breaking point due to the lack of stands for all the traffic.

Granted a QR diverted in with a medical emergency and one Delta 767 went tech and cancelled, another went 5 hours late and I believed returned to stand. It’s maybe unlucky but it highlights the fact more the Airport cannot cope. The passenger experience is probably the worst it’s ever been, staff morale is on its knees, I’d never recommend anyone flying from here at the minute and I’m a big fan of EDI so don’t wish to sound negative.

Depends if you class last Saturday as a while ago... there wasn't any monumental delays for stands today like there was then, unless I am mistaken. It's just as well UA chucked in one of their regular cancellations today though, otherwise things certainly would've been worse, and I'm not sure how the QR diversion could have been accommodated.

It is quite clear that there is not enough stand capacity when IROPs occur and things are off schedule, which unfortunately for the airport is basically every day this summer, as the airlines are having a nightmare as well, and it is making the place look even more stretched than it already is. If they want to keep growth going then work needs to start asap to allow it to.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Biggest problem is they’ve now built an airport on broken foundations (not literally)

Check-in is an absolute mess the second it gets near busy. Jet2 check in is too cramp and the whole area is very poorly signposted.

Ryanair check-in and international arrivals 1 being next to each other means people waiting for arrivals can’t do so in a way that allow allows the clear passage of other arrivals into a very poorly signposted area for tourists.

Security has 6 (I might be wrong) lanes whereas Glasgow has something like 13. The lack of scanners is not helped by the lack of area to queue passengers, and is also not helped by passengers being inefficient with trays and protocols.

The gate area is like it’s made out of lego, start with a box and then build little bits onto it. Gate 17 is particularly awful as it’s in the middle of a narrow corridor that both departures and domestic arrivals use.

International arrivals 2 is genuinely one of the worst layouts of any UK airport, why make me walk up 5 flights of stairs to walk back downstairs, as most gates only have 1 lift good luck for those who struggle with stairs. Then having passengers flow into the hall from two directions creates unnecessary path crossings and inefficiencies.

Overall it’s far too small for the passengers it’s handling and realistically spending money on vanity projects like US Pre-Clearance isn’t going to fix it.

it also faces a risk that is unique to them, it’s grown rapidly in an area with multiple alternatives. Draw a circle with a journey time of 2 hours from EDI and you get 3 other international airports, all of which have them beat in infrastructure.

It’s not beyond fixing, it just needs to fix what it has before continuing to grow.

[Asturias56]

Who on Gods earth thinks that EDI needs more shops and eateries as a priority?

[Planeraz]

Biggest problem is they’ve now built an airport on broken foundations (not literally)

Check-in is an absolute mess the second it gets near busy. Jet2 check in is too cramp and the whole area is very poorly signposted.

Ryanair check-in and international arrivals 1 being next to each other means people waiting for arrivals can’t do so in a way that allow allows the clear passage of other arrivals into a very poorly signposted area for tourists.

Security has 6 (I might be wrong) lanes whereas Glasgow has something like 13. The lack of scanners is not helped by the lack of area to queue passengers, and is also not helped by passengers being inefficient with trays and protocols.

The gate area is like it’s made out of lego, start with a box and then build little bits onto it. Gate 17 is particularly awful as it’s in the middle of a narrow corridor that both departures and domestic arrivals use.

International arrivals 2 is genuinely one of the worst layouts of any UK airport, why make me walk up 5 flights of stairs to walk back downstairs, as most gates only have 1 lift good luck for those who struggle with stairs. Then having passengers flow into the hall from two directions creates unnecessary path crossings and inefficiencies.

Overall it’s far too small for the passengers it’s handling and realistically spending money on vanity projects like US Pre-Clearance isn’t going to fix it.

it also faces a risk that is unique to them, it’s grown rapidly in an area with multiple alternatives. Draw a circle with a journey time of 2 hours from EDI and you get 3 other international airports, all of which have them beat in infrastructure.

It’s not beyond fixing, it just needs to fix what it has before continuing to grow.

In the bigger picture, could it be the case that management see US pre-clearance and the new routes that the CEO claims would follow as a way to increase the value of the business and/or sale price? This is part of a CEO’s job. Maximise profit for the owners. The airport is for sale and is being actively marketed right now. The current owners have “plans” to spend approx £77m over the next 6 years or so to expand the terminal infrastructure. This isn’t a plan to solve the current congestion problems. As many have commented, a new pier etc would cost way more than £77m. Would a new owner commit to spend the cash required to take the airport to the next level or at the very least be able to cope far better with peak summer demands?

[GeorgeNTravels]

In the bigger picture, could it be the case that management see US pre-clearance and the new routes that the CEO claims would follow as a way to increase the value of the business and/or sale price? This is part of a CEO’s job. Maximise profit for the owners. The airport is for sale and is being actively marketed right now. The current owners have “plans” to spend approx £77m over the next 6 years or so to expand the terminal infrastructure. This isn’t a plan to solve the current congestion problems. As many have commented, a new pier etc would cost way more than £77m. Would a new owner commit to spend the cash required to take the airport to the next level or at the very least be able to cope far better with peak summer demands?

it might, but pre-clearance can usually only be accessed 2 hours in advance and in Dublin takes up significant terminal space.

plus it’s ideal for non Americans but with all bar MCO being predominately Americans onboard it’s usefulness is reduced

[Planeraz]

it might, but pre-clearance can usually only be accessed 2 hours in advance and in Dublin takes up significant terminal space.

plus it’s ideal for non Americans but with all bar MCO being predominately Americans onboard it’s usefulness is reduced

I believe EDI is being considered for a pilot scheme, where pax departing to US destinations would go through enhanced type screening in an area next to the current security area. They would then be allowed to access the main departure lounge and mingle, without the requirement to enter a separate secured area prior to boarding. This would obviously suit EDI and help to keep the costs down. It’s also been reported that the pilot scheme could run alongside the US MPC scheme. This in theory would dramatically cut down the time to process pax. Given that the majority of pax using services to/from EDI are US citizens, only a small percentage of pax would need to go through enhanced screening.

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/us-citizens/mobile-passport-control

[GeorgeNTravels]

I believe EDI is being considered for a pilot scheme, where pax departing to US destinations would go through enhanced type screening in an area next to the current security area. They would then be allowed to access the main departure lounge and mingle, without the requirement to enter a separate secured area prior to boarding. This would obviously suit EDI and help to keep the costs down. It’s also been reported that the pilot scheme could run alongside the US MPC scheme. This in theory would dramatically cut down the time to process pax. Given that the majority of pax using services to/from EDI are US citizens, only a small percentage of pax would need to go through enhanced screening.

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/us-citizens/mobile-passport-control

Interesting, but even that raises the issue of where would this new security screening be, ultimately USA traffic has a maximum of just under 505k pax for this summer.

Spending significant sums of money on services for a small group of customers won’t fly with airlines like Ryanair who provide 2.5 million pax in the same period and are still going to be subject to ground delays due to poor taxiway layouts and a runway which is in an awful condition.

[Planeraz]

Interesting, but even that raises the issue of where would this new security screening be, ultimately USA traffic has a maximum of just under 505k pax for this summer.

Spending significant sums of money on services for a small group of customers won’t fly with airlines like Ryanair who provide 2.5 million pax in the same period and are still going to be subject to ground delays due to poor taxiway layouts and a runway which is in an awful condition.

Don’t disagree with your comments re other airlines such as Ryanair potentially using this as an argument if you like to obtain a better financial deal. Ground delays etc and bad PR is a big deal and shouldn’t be ignored. Runway works/improvements is part of the committed costs/plans detailed in the recent management meeting minutes.
EDI management clearly believe US Pre-clearance is a big part of the jigsaw, which would lead to more direct routes and most importantly; year round services to/from the US. The CEO also believes there is scope to attract more pax travelling to the US from the continent via EDI.

The last meeting minutes also made reference to an extension of the current security area. Management offices behind the security area will be removed to create additional space. I suspect this could be the area required for “enhanced screening”. Time will tell.

[tartan 201]

Guys, the point has always been that post US CBP you are considered to be on US soil and free to enter the US domestically. There's no major country on Earth that does customs any other way. You're actually conflating two issues here :
1) Security - easy fix if the US "trusts" the DfT level of security, which given they do daily for flights to the US shouldn't be an issue IMHO. Not even sure why the second security check is even needed in DUB. Anyone know?
2) Entering the US and clearing customs before leaving Scotland. Facial recognition doesn't get you round that one.You can't do this then go to Weatherspooons (is there even one? I don't drink and fly!) for a pint with Shug and his new bird. Really.

Sounds like a lot of nice PR fluff and dollars for the lads. Happy to be wrong if someone can explain what we're all missing here.

I believe EDI is being considered for a pilot scheme, where pax departing to US destinations would go through enhanced type screening in an area next to the current security area. They would then be allowed to access the main departure lounge and mingle, without the requirement to enter a separate secured area prior to boarding. This would obviously suit EDI and help to keep the costs down. It’s also been reported that the pilot scheme could run alongside the US MPC scheme. This in theory would dramatically cut down the time to process pax. Given that the majority of pax using services to/from EDI are US citizens, only a small percentage of pax would need to go through enhanced screening.

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/us-citizens/mobile-passport-control

Sounds from the above as if pre-cleared US passengers could meet "Shug and his new bird" for a pint in Wetherspoons. Really.

Anyway, congressional officials coming next month for a butcher's apparently:

https://www.edinburghinquirer.co.uk/p/after-covid-shocks-capitals-airport


A team of US Congressional officials from Florida are due in Scotland in late September to discuss a special ‘Little America’ Preclearance zone for all passengers leaving Edinburgh Airport on flights bound for the United States
​​​​​

[VickersVicount]

Sounds from the above as if pre-cleared US passengers could meet "Shug and his new bird" for a pint in Wetherspoons. Really.

Anyway, congressional officials coming next month for a butcher's apparently:

https://www.edinburghinquirer.co.uk/p/after-covid-shocks-capitals-airport

One presumes all US flights will run on time with zero queues, gate delays etc on that particular day… ‘will run like clockwork’.

Apart from the so-called Vanity Project, was it clear, for such huge expense and running costs, who in-particular benefits, given inbound/outbound demographic (which I don’t think is identical to DUB).

[tartan 201]

Interesting, but even that raises the issue of where would this new security screening be, ultimately USA traffic has a maximum of just under 505k pax for this summer.

Spending significant sums of money on services for a small group of customers won’t fly with airlines like Ryanair who provide 2.5 million pax in the same period and are still going to be subject to ground delays due to poor taxiway layouts and a runway which is in an awful condition.

"ultimately USA traffic has a maximum of just under 505k pax for this summer" is not of much relevance given the airport hopes that if it was able to get pre-clearance it may well lead to additional services. The "awful condition" of the runway should be addressed by the 'Major Runway Rehab' works planned to be complete by January 2026 (source (https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.ctfassets.net%2F2hwzhse7s zu0%2F1JKMSdNk4Kev4GyU55edA6%2Fb9c71635bdc99e388f45eef8c2348 a94%2F2023_Q2_EACC_report.docx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK) see 2.1).

One presumes all US flights will run on time with zero queues, gate delays etc on that particular day… ‘will run like clockwork’.

Apart from the so-called Vanity Project, was it clear, for such huge expense and running costs, who in-particular benefits, given inbound/outbound demographic (which I don’t think is identical to DUB).

Various parties could benefit according to this (https://www.cbp.gov/travel/preclearance/apply-preclearance-expansion#:~:text=Benefits%20of%20Preclearance,connecting%20 flight%20or%20final%20destination.). Whether those benefits outweigh the "huge expense and running costs" is not for me to say but time will tell if the various parties think that they would.

[GeorgeNTravels]

"ultimately USA traffic has a maximum of just under 505k pax for this summer" is not of much relevance given the airport hopes that if it was able to get pre-clearance it may well lead to additional services. The "awful condition" of the runway should be addressed by the 'Major Runway Rehab' works planned to be complete by January 2026 (source (https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.ctfassets.net%2F2hwzhse7s zu0%2F1JKMSdNk4Kev4GyU55edA6%2Fb9c71635bdc99e388f45eef8c2348 a94%2F2023_Q2_EACC_report.docx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK) see 2.1).



Various parties could benefit according to this (https://www.cbp.gov/travel/preclearance/apply-preclearance-expansion#:~:text=Benefits%20of%20Preclearance,connecting%20 flight%20or%20final%20destination.). Whether those benefits outweigh the "huge expense and running costs" is not for me to say but time will tell if the various parties think that they would.

But you’re missing the point entirely, if the non terminal infrastructure (taxiways and such) can’t cope with the current infrastructure then throwing new routes into the mix won’t help.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The break-up of BAA has meant the end of cross subsidy for the greater good of the group. Huge benefits in terms of passenger volumes and routes BUT the need to make consistent money in a regional environment means that future strategic investment to take the business to the next level is a challenge.
There's a tempting case for a completely new terminal by compulsory purchase of Ingliston showground land and build fit for the 21st century. But that won't happen so add ons to the existing 1977 building are the only realistic option. Forever.

And that's a pain point and a half. Something this big should ideally be public/private partnership IMHO. It's beyond the pockets of any sensible private business to get this right. And that's not EDI's fault, it just is what it is now.

[Asturias56]

But why should the public subsidise another airport operator, even in part? There a re lot of other calls on the cash - defence, hospitals, care etc

Perhaps if the owners took out less cash the business would be in better shape?

[Planeraz]

But why should the public subsidise another airport operator, even in part? There a re lot of other calls on the cash - defence, hospitals, care etc

Perhaps if the owners took out less cash the business would be in better shape?

Politics, rightly or wrongly will take centre stage re any financial support and growth at EDI. I don’t think it is unreasonable to say that there will be very little chance of any substantial support from the current Scottish Gov. The Green Party in particular openly talk of their desire to wipe out air travel, tax private individuals to the hilt for flying into Scotland and destroy the sector as a result. The UK Gov is far more likely to be supportive. It is politically advantageous for them. They have already indicated their support for EDI’s pre-clearance application. After all, if successful, EDI would be the first UK airport to have pre-clearance. The special relationship etc.

[VickersVicount]

Doubt there will be any UK Gov interaction with Pre-Clearance at EDI. If anything ever came to fruition, they’ll be all over it like a rash. Head office one previous owner camper-van.

[Yolaflyer]

One presumes all US flights will run on time with zero queues, gate delays etc on that particular day… ‘will run like clockwork’.

Apart from the so-called Vanity Project, was it clear, for such huge expense and running costs, who in-particular benefits, given inbound/outbound demographic (which I don’t think is identical to DUB).
Dublin's USA bound passenger profile does differ considerably from Edinburghs'. In relation to the biggest trans Atlantic carrier at Dublin..Aer Lingus, it carries a considerable number of transit passengers. These are fed into the hub from the UK and Continental Europe by Aer Lingus and Emerald Air. I don't have a breakdown of US v Non US passengers at Dublin but it's probably around 60/40, US/Non US

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

But why should the public subsidise another airport operator, even in part? There a re lot of other calls on the cash - defence, hospitals, care etc

Perhaps if the owners took out less cash the business would be in better shape?
Great point, I agree. Major airports being in the private sector is an odd one, like water and prisons. They're an integral part of UK Infrastructure and other countries realise they need to invest in something attractive and worthwhile to drive tourism and inward investment and we allow EDI to compete with GLA which gives us one 1/2 empty underutilised airport with 7 airbridges on a (once) dedicated international pier compared to a zoo crammed into a structure intended for Tridents.
We have never built a major private sector airport in the UK, they've all been taxpayer funded then flogged off. The closest we got was DSA being built on the site of RAF Finningley.
Maybe the East Cost will bubble pop and the lowland market will rebalance but imagine where'll we'll be in ten years if they don't start putting in something major now.

[tartan 201]

Dublin's USA bound passenger profile does differ considerably from Edinburghs'. In relation to the biggest trans Atlantic carrier at Dublin..Aer Lingus, it carries a considerable number of transit passengers. These are fed into the hub from the UK and Continental Europe by Aer Lingus and Emerald Air. I don't have a breakdown of US v Non US passengers at Dublin but it's probably around 60/40, US/Non US

US/non-US split at DUB is 65:35 while EDI is 70:30 (for 2023 so far).

[GrahamK]

US/non-US split at DUB is 65:35 while EDI is 70:30 (for 2023 so far).
So if the value of the dollar plummets, you'll have next to nobody using the flights anyway?
Better off spending money trying to improve the passenger experience IMO

[Asturias56]

yes - for EVRY Passenger - not just one airline or one set of destinations.

[VickersVicount]

wonder if the hub aspect and huge connecting set up as at DUB has any advantages for pre- clearance or does it not really matter? I think my presumption was its not of huge benefit to homeward bound US passengers anyway which would seem odd if 70% of the throughput would be in that category? And for those that fly to US a lot, reasonably easy now to get Global Entry.

[Asturias56]

Pre-clearance in Ireland long pre-dates modern Hub & Spoke. It's a clear advantage negotiated by Aer Lingus back in 1986 to give them some saleable benefit in trans-Atlantic operations over the big boys - especially BA and LHR.

It is/was totally politically driven and had nothing to do with transit advantages etc

[SWBKCB]

Edinburgh Airport (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topic/edinburgh-airport) has been ‘flooded’ with piles of unclaimed luggage, after baggage delays saw passengers forced to go home without their items.

Some passengers have taken to social media to complain about Scotland (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topic/scotland)'s busiest airport being full of baggage. (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-airport-baggage-reclaim-passengers-frustration-that-no-staff-in-sight-to-help-over-missing-luggage-4219561)One posted photos of baggage piled up in the terminal and told the Evening News the airport was ‘flooded’ on Thursday with cases and bags.

Airport bosses advised passengers to contact handlers directly. A spokesperson for Edinburgh Airport said: “The transportation, delivery and secure storage of baggage is the responsibility of handling agent companies which are contracted by airlines. As an airport we will continue to support our partners where we can, and this includes by sourcing and providing additional resource for them.”

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/edinburgh-airport-chaos-as-terminal-flooded-with-bags-after-passengers-forced-to-leave-without-luggage-4244486

[GoEDI]

Not entirely the case, as I believe a lot of the bags are rush bags (ie unaccompanied, hence them being unclaimed) being sent from other airports, most likely caused by misconnects at hubs. The sheer volume of them appears to be too much for the handling agents to cope with. Yes they should be getting managed better at EDI, but they are unlikely to have bargained on hundreds of rush bags being sent in each day because the airlines are failing to manage their hub connections better. Just another sign of the disruption industry wide currently, I would wager a lot are off the US flights.

[Planeraz]

New US routes

Before flying out of EDI to LHR this morning and chatting to a couple of BA gate agents, they mentioned that a route to LAX and a TX airport is very much being talked about the airport. A couple of airlines is in talks. One of the agents is a long term employee at the airport who I’ve known for a number of years. This is of course speculation, but not new. If true, realistically, it could be UA to Houston or AA to DFW. LAX, I really don’t know who with.

[Flightrider]

It sounds from many of the postings above as though they have a serious job to do to sort out the infrastructure before piling more growth into peak times. Taking the airport to Level 3 slot coordination sounds to be eminently sensible but one suspects this wouldn't fit with the airport's agenda as it would constrain growth.

With one existing TATL link being described as a low-yield basketcase by those working for the airline in question and another related operation not exactly achieving loadfactors becoming of the size of the aircraft deployed, it will be fascinating to see whether capacity increases or declines next year, regardless of the airport's ability to cope with it.

[laviation]

Makes the most sense for UA to both IAH and LAX.
AA will re-enter EDI from PHL
BA, VS no chance
DL have other hubs to start from (cough cough Detroit)

[Exasperated]

It sounds from many of the postings above as though they have a serious job to do to sort out the infrastructure before piling more growth into peak times. Taking the airport to Level 3 slot coordination sounds to be eminently sensible but one suspects this wouldn't fit with the airport's agenda as it would constrain growth.

With one existing TATL link being described as a low-yield basketcase by those working for the airline in question and another related operation not exactly achieving loadfactors becoming of the size of the aircraft deployed, it will be fascinating to see whether capacity increases or declines next year, regardless of the airport's ability to cope with it.
This comment on Airliners.net was only relating to O&D traffic and the following was then added


I think its important to note that these numbers do not say how good or bad a route preforms, only how well the route preforms on O&D alone. DL could be pulling high numbers of high yielding connections. That only DL has access to.


Makes a big difference.

Ex

[Flightrider]

I don't read the a.net forums - what I'm hearing came directly from someone at the airline in question. And yes, what you say is correct in that connections can make a difference but it's very rare that connections are higher yield than O&D traffic.

[VickersVicount]

I don't read the a.net forums - what I'm hearing came directly from someone at the airline in question.
Wonder what these routes are in question? IAD, ATL and /or YYC yields would be interesting Id guess despite fag packet load figures.
Can’t see Detroit or LAX any time soon.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

No US network carrier will add LAX get your heads out of the clouds. It's a delusion, it's not a hub for any of them, a focus city for all but predicated on O&D. United are huge at SFO but there's not enough UK traffic to make that work IMHO. Use DUB as your guide and stop looking at LHR, neither DTW nor IAH are offered into Ireland.

If American do rejoin the party at EDI, one of the existing Delta / United routes will be consolidate or dropped. You can't keep adding net new forever, something will pop. As the United B757 fleet continues to age and become unreliable, expect one of the four daily to be looked at closely.

[tartan 201]

Any return of American is likely the point that someone else downsizes, net new can't go on forever, bubbles tend to pop.


If American do rejoin the party at EDI, one of the existing Delta / United routes will be consolidate or dropped. You can't keep adding net new forever, something will pop. As the United B757 fleet continues to age and become unreliable, expect one of the four daily to be looked at closely.

Are we certain that we're in a bubble though? If we are then it hasn't yet inflated to 2019 proportions. Comparing EDI/GLA<>US route passenger numbers for January-May 2023 with the same period in 2019 shows that the number of passengers this year is down about 13% compared to 2019 (data below). The key change is that previously the central Scotland-USA market was split 80:20 EDI:GLA and so far this year it's split 96:4
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/460x379/screenshot_2023_08_08_123059_1d7c22396830b7601e9a94067b51706 4d33792a5.jpg
Part of me wants to dampen down excitable chatter BUT I always think of Dublin when I was growing up with two Aer Lingus B747s out to BOS and JFK via SNN where NWO also flew onto PIK. Same old slog year after year for ages. Over time, that long haul market changed massively for the better and the dead seasonality has been evened out. Perhaps something similar is finally happening to Scotland, long overdue and without a based flag carrier to help. Sometimes we don't believe change can happen even as we live through it. It would be interesting to see the pull factor EDI now exerts all the way from NCL and the borders to Ayrshire and beyond. United don't need to serve GLA/NCL anymore if they can pull traffic to EDI.
I grew up watching the NW/AC/AA/BA/UA bubble burst at GLA in the '90s, perhaps this is finally the real deal in growth?

I suppose it's only in hindsight that we'll be able to tell if the current period is a bubble or the 'real deal'.

It sounds from many of the postings above as though they have a serious job to do to sort out the infrastructure before piling more growth into peak times. Taking the airport to Level 3 slot coordination sounds to be eminently sensible but one suspects this wouldn't fit with the airport's agenda as it would constrain growth.

With one existing TATL link being described as a low-yield basketcase by those working for the airline in question and another related operation not exactly achieving loadfactors becoming of the size of the aircraft deployed, it will be fascinating to see whether capacity increases or declines next year, regardless of the airport's ability to cope with it.

The "operation not exactly achieving loadfactors becoming of the size of the aircraft deployed" could refer to VS's MCO service, although one would expect higher load factors for the remainder of the summer than those reported earlier for June. A "related operation" to that could be one of DL's three routes (JFK, BOS and ATL). Of those, BOS started three weeks earlier this year than last and operates daily this year rather than five-weekly last year. The frequency of ATL was increased from five-weekly to daily prior to the first flight. None of those would be rational actions for a route if an airline considered that route to be "a low-yield basketcase". So that leaves DL's JFK route or one of UA's routes (they doubled the frequency of EWR this summer compared to last so that would presumably fail the 'rational action' test too).

[Planeraz]

Wizz Air

It is being reported that Wizz have removed EDI-Tirana from sale. No surprise at all. Classic Wizz behaviour. Ryanair flights remain on sale - for now, with the flights operate subject to regulatory approval message still showing.

[pabely]

Wizz Air

It is being reported that Wizz have removed EDI-Tirana from sale. No surprise at all. Classic Wizz behaviour. Ryanair flights remain on sale - for now.
Operation by Ryanair UK so probally aircraft doing a STN - EDI - TIA - EDI - STN route.

[natmci]

Operation by Ryanair UK so probally aircraft doing a STN - EDI - TIA - EDI - STN route.

There's a couple G- reg Ryanair UK frames at EDI now so probably using those rather than STN based, they're needed for non-EU routes such as TIA and RAK and the domestics to BOH, STN and NQY where EU registered AC can't be used

[pabely]

There's a couple G- reg Ryanair UK frames at EDI now so probably using those rather than STN based, they're needed for non-EU routes such as TIA and RAK and the domestics to BOH, STN and NQY where EU registered AC can't be used
Never noticed the RUK presence! That makes sense then.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Wizz Air

It is being reported that Wizz have removed EDI-Tirana from sale. No surprise at all. Classic Wizz behaviour. Ryanair flights remain on sale - for now, with the flights operate subject to regulatory approval message still showing.

A thought I just had about WIZZ and all of the Tirana - UK flights they announced, how on earth were they ever going to operate them.

Neither Albania nor the UK are members of the EU, therefore WIZZ (based in Hungary) and WIZZ Air Malta couldn't touch them as they are both EU based, for obvious reasons WIZZ Abu Dhabi couldn't touch them either, leaving just WIZZ UK. However, as these routes were TIA-based and not UK based they couldn't be operated by WIZZ UK.

Did WIZZ put them on sale not noticing or did they hope some form of deal could be reached about operating them? That's why Ryanair have been ok so far as they are UK based and operated by RUK.

[tartan 201]

A thought I just had about WIZZ and all of the Tirana - UK flights they announced, how on earth were they ever going to operate them.


Others had the same thought - see the Wizzair thread: https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637194-wizzair-3-a-12.html#post11481814

Anyway, US route passenger numbers for July, with %age split US/non-US citizens:

Atlanta: 13,166 85% / 15%
Boston: 12,420 79% / 21%
Chicago: 10,344 82% / 18%
New York JFK: 12,520 68% / 32%
Newark: 17,844 68% / 32%
Orlando: 6,372 15% / 85%
Washington: 10,789 80% / 20%

[Planeraz]

A thought I just had about WIZZ and all of the Tirana - UK flights they announced, how on earth were they ever going to operate them.

Neither Albania nor the UK are members of the EU, therefore WIZZ (based in Hungary) and WIZZ Air Malta couldn't touch them as they are both EU based, for obvious reasons WIZZ Abu Dhabi couldn't touch them either, leaving just WIZZ UK. However, as these routes were TIA-based and not UK based they couldn't be operated by WIZZ UK.

Did WIZZ put them on sale not noticing or did they hope some form of deal could be reached about operating them? That's why Ryanair have been ok so far as they are UK based and operated by RUK.

Tough on anyone who booked with Wizz. This is classic behaviour from them. They’ve done this so many times before with other routes, that in turn never start. They are also notoriously slow in refunding cash. I would never give them my business.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Tough on anyone who booked with Wizz. This is classic behaviour from them. They’ve done this so many times before with other routes, that in turn never start. They are also notoriously slow in refunding cash. I would never give them my business.

Very true, the record for me is I booked BUD-EDI with them and they cancelled it 17 minutes after booking then tried to say I wasn’t entitled to a refund.

[GoEDI]

Others had the same thought - see the Wizzair thread: https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637194-wizzair-3-a-12.html#post11481814

Anyway, US route passenger numbers for July, with %age split US/non-US citizens:

Atlanta: 13,166 85% / 15%
Boston: 12,420 79% / 21%
Chicago: 10,344 82% / 18%
New York JFK: 12,520 68% / 32%
Newark: 17,844 68% / 32%
Orlando: 6,372 15% / 85%
Washington: 10,789 80% / 20%



Those July figures give the following loads:

ATL- 94%
BOS- 89%
JFK- 89%

EWR- 89% - hard to get an accurate figure when this route is such a mess operationally. Cancellations accounted for, but not aircraft subs, this is based on all B752.
IAD- 93%
ORD- 95%

MCO- 89%

Whilst yields and route profitability are a different matter, it doesn't appear to me that any of the routes are "not exactly achieving load factors becoming of the size of the aircraft deployed", so I would certainly challenge that statement now.

Non-US pax total of just under 25k for the month. Yet some quarters will have you believe current there is next to no demand from non-US pax currently...

[Planeraz]

Qatar W23

QR making changes to operational aircraft for W23. Although subject to additional changes, 788 will continue to operate both flights up to and including 1st December. A359 showing as operating both flights from 2nd December.

Economy (inbound) for first 2 weeks in September is virtually sold out. Expect aircraft changes (773/351) on certain days during this period. Presumably boosted by students traveling for start of uni terms.

[GulfTraveller]

The first two weeks of September are normally very busy across all airports as holidaymakers return in time for the start of school.

[SWBKCB]

The first two weeks of September are normally very busy across all airports as holidaymakers return in time for the start of school.

Scotland has a different school year - Edinburgh are back this week

[Sk1schoolsam]

Total Pax 1,398,433 - 18% up on June 22

[Breathe]

Scotland has a different school year - Edinburgh are back this week
Perhaps they meant the North American definition of school which also includes universities?

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps they meant the North American definition of school which also includes universities?

Maybe, maybe not

[Planeraz]

June 23

As highlighted in other post, pax total for June - 1,398,433

Pax totals for selected routes and approx LF’s. N.B some of the American routes had a number of cancellations in June.

TK - Istanbul 10,130 or 94%
QR - Doha 21,067 or 96%
HN- Beijing 617 or 71%
WS - Calgary 7,308 or 96%
AC - Toronto 11,861 or 84%
DL - Atlanta 12,523 or 99%
DL - Boston 11,078 or 91%
DL - JFK 11,674 or 96%
UA - Chicago 9,932 or 98%
UA - Newark 17,045 or 94%
UA - Washington 9,744 or 96%
VS - Orlando 1,381 or 72%

Westjet performed really strongly. The marketing appears to have paid off. It also looks like they may have eaten into Air Canada’s market share and captured some west coast transit pax? Although not awful, AC’s LF is on the lower side. I expect July to be much higher.

Virgin - Orlando is poor. No other way to describe this. Although June isn’t traditionally a holiday month for Scots, VS will surely be disappointed.

Another strong month for QR. July’s total pax will be higher still given the increase to double daily.

TK performing steadily again. Consistent LF’s in the mid 90’s.

The other established US routes all performed well again. DL - JFK taken a small hit, probably due to UA increasing EWR. DL - Boston slightly down, but still hitting a solid 90% plus.

Hainan - Beijing. Hard to judge so far given they only started end of June. If the number of Chinese tourists in Edinburgh currently is anything to go by, I’d expect July and August totals to be much higher.

[Planeraz]

American S24

A number of reliable sources in the US commenting that AA, tomorrow, will announce some new and returning international routes. Fingers crossed that EDI is on this list….

[laviation]

Sadly the teaser posted to a few Twitter pages does not suggest a return to EDI (and MAN for that matter)

Said teaser can be found on the IshrionAviation Twitter page but the link won't work here

It does suggest 5 routes although I do wonder if American will class any routes lost to COVID as simply route resumptions

We do know that AA's intention is indeed to return to EDI/MAN given slot requests ETC


Let's hope for the best!

[GeorgeNTravels]

June 23

As highlighted in other post, pax total for June - 1,398,433

Pax totals for selected routes and approx LF’s. N.B some of the American routes had a number of cancellations in June.

TK - Istanbul 10,130 or 94%
QR - Doha 21,067 or 96%
HN- Beijing 617 or 71%
WS - Calgary 7,308 or 96%
AC - Toronto 11,861 or 84%
DL - Atlanta 12,523 or 99%
DL - Boston 11,078 or 91%
DL - JFK 11,674 or 96%
UA - Chicago 9,932 or 98%
UA - Newark 17,045 or 94%
UA - Washington 9,744 or 96%
VS - Orlando 1,381 or 72%

Westjet performed really strongly. The marketing appears to have paid off. It also looks like they may have eaten into Air Canada’s market share and captured some west coast transit pax? Although not awful, AC’s LF is on the lower side. I expect July to be much higher.

Virgin - Orlando is poor. No other way to describe this. Although June isn’t traditionally a holiday month for Scots, VS will surely be disappointed.

Another strong month for QR. July’s total pax will be higher still given the increase to double daily.

TK performing steadily again. Consistent LF’s in the mid 90’s.

The other established US routes all performed well again. DL - JFK taken a small hit, probably due to UA increasing EWR. DL - Boston slightly down, but still hitting a solid 90% plus.

Hainan - Beijing. Hard to judge so far given they only started end of June. If the number of Chinese tourists in Edinburgh currently is anything to go by, I’d expect July and August totals to be much higher.

I will be honest, I doubted Atlanta when it was announced, but those figures for ATL are impressive.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Virgin - Orlando is poor. No other way to describe this. Although June isn’t traditionally a holiday month for Scots, VS will surely be disappointed.
Good point, Scottish schools don't break up til the end of Jun, peak seasons are late Jun to early Sep. This was an A330 operation last year which may have been up-gauged in error to the A35K. So rather than drop the route, I'd suspect we'd see a return to the A330 or even the A339 for next season.
I would imagine ATL-EDI is rest of the US being funnelled via the hub allowing more seats to be released for point-to-point out of JFK and BOS? So rather than opening DTW or MSP as some expect, we might see the A330 on ATL-EDI?

Air Canada's a little lower than I had hoped but that may be due to the B789 being subbed on a few rotations, Calgary is a surprise to me, well done WestJet on filling the B789!

[Link Kilo]

Virgin - Orlando is poor. No other way to describe this. Although June isn’t traditionally a holiday month for Scots, VS will surely be disappointed.


Will they be? It's aimed mainly at outbound UK passengers so the first few inbound flights in June were obviously going to be quiet. We already know it had a load factor of 89% in July.

[tartan 201]

The chart below shows the market share of the three Central Scotland airports based on the Moving Annual Total for each month from January 2015 to June 2023 (excluding January 2020 to April 2023). It's often said on here that there should be one Central Scotland airport: I wonder if we'll end up with that being, in effect, the case.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/582x361/screenshot_2023_08_16_17_16_51_7fa0fc498009e0bca33cabfc7772b e9351b6bf94.png

Comparison below of EDI/GLA<>US passenger numbers January - June 2023 with the same period in 2019. Worth noting that the total this year to date is still 12% down on the same period in 2019.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/405x367/screenshot_2023_08_16_17_27_08_274d595428cf368d755328e6ff2e9 844c05c3d4d.png

[Asturias56]

The return of Labour to some degree of power will see more money flow into GLA - that's were their voters are - not around EDI

TBH GLA has mouldered for 10 years - give it a few (ANY!!) improvements and you'll see them regain some of the business

[GeorgeNTravels]

Just done a deeper look at the figures a mixed bag on internationals with 47 routes coming in with a drop compared to last year (some of these are just natural with the way the month fitted around days of operations) however, the most significant losses (apart from dropped stuff) were;

Orlando - down 59%
Burgas - down 57%
Riga - down 48%
Reus - down 37%
Wroclaw - down 30%

On the growth side, 72 routes recorded growth (excluding the new stuff), some up slightly (some of these are just natural with the way the month fitted around days of operations) and the largest increases in growth were;

Venice - up 205%
Toulouse - up 101%
Kos - up 97%
Shannon - up 87%
Newark - up 82

On a general note, Eastern Europe has struggled in June, with Poland having a particularly rough month, all routes bar Gdansk were down on last year , some significantly

[GoEDI]

June 23

As highlighted in other post, pax total for June - 1,398,433

Pax totals for selected routes and approx LF’s. N.B some of the American routes had a number of cancellations in June.

TK - Istanbul 10,130 or 94%
QR - Doha 21,067 or 96%
HN- Beijing 617 or 71%
WS - Calgary 7,308 or 96%
AC - Toronto 11,861 or 84%
DL - Atlanta 12,523 or 99%
DL - Boston 11,078 or 91%
DL - JFK 11,674 or 96%
UA - Chicago 9,932 or 98%
UA - Newark 17,045 or 94%
UA - Washington 9,744 or 96%
VS - Orlando 1,381 or 72%

Westjet performed really strongly. The marketing appears to have paid off. It also looks like they may have eaten into Air Canada’s market share and captured some west coast transit pax? Although not awful, AC’s LF is on the lower side. I expect July to be much higher.

Virgin - Orlando is poor. No other way to describe this. Although June isn’t traditionally a holiday month for Scots, VS will surely be disappointed.

Another strong month for QR. July’s total pax will be higher still given the increase to double daily.

TK performing steadily again. Consistent LF’s in the mid 90’s.

The other established US routes all performed well again. DL - JFK taken a small hit, probably due to UA increasing EWR. DL - Boston slightly down, but still hitting a solid 90% plus.

Hainan - Beijing. Hard to judge so far given they only started end of June. If the number of Chinese tourists in Edinburgh currently is anything to go by, I’d expect July and August totals to be much higher.

The LFs don't look entirely accurate unfortunately but happy to be corrected as there are different configs operating in some cases? I get below based on actual configs used and number of flights, taking into account any cancellations:

ATL- 96%
BOS- 85%
JFK- 89%
EWR- 85%
IAD- 93%
ORD- 94%
MCO- 58%

YYC- 88%
YYZ- 91%

DOH- 96%

IST- 93%

PEK- 51%

MCO and PEK June LFs are largely irrelevant given only a couple of flights operated right at the end of the month. The first couple of MCO-EDI sectors were extremely quiet which has dragged the average LF right down given how few flights operated, but we already know the LF for July was around 89% from the American figures, which is more like it. Worth remembering PEK had a very short lead time, July figures will also show it busier for sure.

[tartan 201]

Just done a deeper look at the figures a mixed bag on internationals with 47 routes coming in with a drop compared to last year (some of these are just natural with the way the month fitted around days of operations)

Worth noting that, as a whole, international passengers were 1,022,149 which is up 32% on 2022 and up 7% on 2019.

[SWBKCB]

I've always been a bit baffled why people remove cancelled flights when calculating load factors - surely what is relevant is tickets sold, not bums on seats. i.e at one extreme I could schedule a daily flight, see that sales are only at 50%, cancel every other flight and re-book pax on to the following days flight and claim 100% load factors? And yes, the obvious caveat that LF's doesn't tell us if a route is making money.

On a seperate note, are the CAA June CSV files incorrectly formatted or is it just me?

[inOban]

The only Westminster Labour mp in the current Parliament sits for Edinburgh South.

[Planeraz]

AA’s little teaser vid ahead of the routes announcement expected at some point today. Is this EDI showing on the map? Could of course just be coincidence…


https://www.facebook.com/reel/1840163953066995

It would appear EDI has missed out so far. The following just announced:-

PHL to

Copenhagen
Naples
Nice

ORD to

Venice

DFW to

Barcelona

All daily services on 787-8 and 9

[Sk1schoolsam]

AA’s little teaser vid ahead of the routes announcement expected at some point today. Is this EDI showing on the map? Could of course just be coincidence…


https://www.facebook.com/reel/1840163953066995

It would appear EDI has missed out so far. The following just announced:-

PHL to

Copenhagen
Naples
Nice

ORD to

Venice

DFW to

Barcelona

All daily services on 787-8 and 9

Thats disappointing- would have liked to see AA back next year. Did they cancel there slots request for S24?

[R T Jones]

A 787 into Naples will be interesting.

[Sotonsean]

A 787 into Naples will be interesting.

The runway at Naples is 2,641m/8,622 feet. Why would a Boeing 787 into Naples be interesting 🤔

[GrahamK]

Thats disappointing- would have liked to see AA back next year. Did they cancel there slots request for S24?
I don't believe they had a slot request for S24

[inOban]

I guess IAG want to funnel Scottish traffic through Dublin to support the increased frequencies and additional routes announced for S24

[Rutan16]

Thats disappointing- would have liked to see AA back next year. Did they cancel there slots request for S24?

Looks like a leisure preference with the exception of Copenhagen

Copenhagen will have a significant Pharma business with the like of Novo Nordisk and Astra Zenica

Every other one is a cruise liner boarding point.

American can’t do anything much till the 321xlr frames are on estate in numbers that wont be till spring 2025.

[inOban]

The press release from Aer Lingus emphasises the number of US companies whose European operations are based in Eire

[Planeraz]

Looks like a leisure preference with the exception of Copenhagen

Copenhagen will have a significant Pharma business with the like of Novo Nordisk and Astra Zenica

Every other one is a cruise liner boarding point.

American can’t do anything much till the 321xlr frames are on estate in numbers that wont be till spring 2025.

I’m hearing from reliable sources (employees at EDI) that the airport believed the PHL route was in the bag. At the last minute, the Greens in the Scottish Govt demanded that subsidies be withdrawn. AA then walked away. No one should be in any doubt that the greens/SNP are intent on destroying the aviation sector. Pure politics being played.

[laviation]

Cant destroy the Union now they are resorting to destroying Aviation !

[inOban]

Are such subsidies controlled by ScoGov? Or is it up to EDI to decide whether to offer an introductory deal?
Anyway does the aviation sector need subsidising? And should it be?

[GeorgeNTravels]

I’m hearing from reliable sources (employees at EDI) that the airport believed the PHL route was in the bag. At the last minute, the Greens in the Scottish Govt demanded that subsidies be withdrawn. AA then walked away. No one should be in any doubt that the greens/SNP are intent on destroying the aviation sector. Pure politics being played.

Both EDI and American Airlines are private businesses operating in a non-regulated aviation system.

Subsidy money shouldn’t be a deal breaker, especially if demand is as strong as some claim, after all Philadelphia is very, very easy to reach from Washington and New York direct from EDI and from Baltimore which is accessible with PLAY from GLA.

[willy wombat]

Given that EDI is struggling (failing?) to cope with the traffic it already has (see various posts passim), there seems little logic in anyone offering new route subsidies at the moment.

[cavokblues]

There are 7 Green MSP out of 129 MSP in the Scottish Government.

With that makeup I doubt any decision to withdraw any potential subsidy is solely because of them.

[BA318]

There are 7 Green MSP out of 129 MSP in the Scottish Government.

With that makeup I doubt any decision to withdraw any potential subsidy is solely because of them.

well it would depend upon if their support is required for anything etc. then a small group can hold a lot more power than at first glance. Like when Theresa May did the deal with the DUP.

[willy wombat]

If it is the Scottish Government dishing out subsidies (and I’ve no idea if that is true) wouldn’t it be more sensible to offer subsidies for new routes at currently underutilised GLA, or does it not work like that in SNP land?

[tartan 201]

I’m hearing from reliable sources (employees at EDI) that the airport believed the PHL route was in the bag. At the last minute, the Greens in the Scottish Govt demanded that subsidies be withdrawn. AA then walked away. No one should be in any doubt that the greens/SNP are intent on destroying the aviation sector. Pure politics being played.

The Bute House Agreement covers the grounds of co-operation between the SNP and the Scottish Greens. It can be read here (https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/agreement/2021/07/scottish-government-and-scottish-green-party-co-operation-agreement/documents/scottish-government-and-scottish-green-party-parliamentary-group-draft-cooperation-agreement/scottish-government-and-scottish-green-party-parliamentary-group-draft-cooperation-agreement/govscot%3Adocument/SG%2BSGP%2B-%2BDraft%2BCooperation%2BAgreement%2B-%2BFINAL%2B-%2BOFFSEN.pdf).

There are several matters excluded from the agreement, where the two parties agree to take different views. One of those excluded matters states:

Recognising that an agreement to collaborate and cooperation on budgets and matters of supply does not prevent us from having different visions for the long-term future of Scotland’s economy and on support for certain sectors, aviation policy (except in respect of island aviation connectivity and Highlands and Islands Airports Limited), the future of green ports, and direct financial support to businesses involved in the aerospace, defence and security sectors are excluded from this agreement.

How could the Scottish Greens "demand that subsidies be withdrawn" on a matter that is specifically excluded from their cooperation agreement?

[tartan 201]

If it is the Scottish Government dishing out subsidies (and I’ve no idea if that is true) wouldn’t it be more sensible to offer subsidies for new routes at currently underutilised GLA, or does it not work like that in SNP land?

​​​I think any subsidies are more along the lines of marketing support via Visit Scotland to support new routes in their initial years of operation. Hence it's a means of supporting routes that airlines want to operate rather than a means of directing routes to airports that have underutilised capacity.
​​​​

[ld0595]

I'm struggling to believe that to be honest.​​​​​​ I would've thought any sort of subsidy for a route that previously existed and operated successfully would've been in the hands of Edinburgh Airport, not the Scottish Government.

If it was the case, I'm sure we'd be hearing from Gordon Dewar crying foul in a couple of days.

​​​​​​I'm sure someone could also put in an FOI to get to the bottom of it if he doesn't say anything.

[cavokblues]

Also, wouldn't there have to be an official tender for the route as per the PSO lifeline routes?

I know the SNP aren't exactly great with managing their own funds but if a subsidy was going under the radar like this - the other political parties would be saying something, surely?

[SWBKCB]

If there is anything in the story it will be as Tartan201 says, market support for new routes rather than anything like a PSO. Maybe with a limited pool of funds, it's been decided that another US route isn't a priority? So a tourism issue rather than aviation policy.

[VickersVicount]

I don’t think there should be any government subsidies in this day and age for non essential routes to areas already well served. The east coast has three flights a day!
‘Visit Scotland’ is the only part if that rumour you need to know…
Interesting the route needed subsidy to make it worthwhile if true… Wonder how landscape will change when all the other subsidies run out…

[GayFriendly]

Are we talking a subsidy or a discount on airport fees and charges? The two are often inter-connected but also confused

I highly doubt an airline like AA would not commit to a route if it didn't think it could make money, subsidy or not. It clearly has better uses for its fleet of 787's. By instead choosing cruise ship ports in Europe, AA have almost guaranteed themselves full flights such is the demand for cruise holidays in the Med for US tourists.

Whilst EDI has grown it's TATL offering in spectacular style, just because it has doesn't mean that every US airline wants to fly to EDI from every hub. What additional connections does PHL offer over the many served by flying through BOS, NYC, IAD, ORD and ATL? Very few I'd imagine

[tictack67]

Also, wouldn't there have to be an official tender for the route as per the PSO lifeline routes?

I know the SNP aren't exactly great with managing their own funds but if a subsidy was going under the radar like this - the other political parties would be saying something, surely?


I'd have thought at least Glasgow Airport would have something to say about it, which leads me to believe it's not the case, the route air development fund was stopped 16 years ago.

[tictack67]

Both EDI and American Airlines are private businesses operating in a non-regulated aviation system.

Subsidy money shouldn’t be a deal breaker, especially if demand is as strong as some claim, after all Philadelphia is very, very easy to reach from Washington and New York direct from EDI and from Baltimore which is accessible with PLAY from GLA.

Is this the best we can hope for a ​​​​​​Glasgow to Philadelphia routing (after a 2hr20m flight to Iceland thereafter a 1h45m layover, then a 6hr35m flight to Baltimore, then once cleared US inmigration a further journey by train from Baltimore To Philly) is an easy substitute to/or hopes of any direct flight!

[GeorgeNTravels]

Is this the best we can hope for a ​​​​​​Glasgow to Philadelphia routing (after a 2hr20m flight to Iceland thereafter a 1h45m layover, then a 6hr35m flight to Baltimore, then once cleared US inmigration a further journey by train from Baltimore To Philly) is an easy substitute to/or hopes of any direct flight!

No, but what I’m saying is you don’t necessarily need another Scotland to east coast USA flight. If the price is right then people will fly with a change.

Plus with the mess that EDI has been for the last 2 summers they really need to get their current house in order before getting new routes.

[ATNotts]

No, but what I’m saying is you don’t necessarily need another Scotland to east coast USA flight. If the price is right then people will fly with a change.

Plus with the mess that EDI has been for the last 2 summers they really need to get their current house in order before getting new routes.
The problem with these wish lists for yet more East Coast US destinations is that sooner or later the market gets saturated, the bubble bursts and EDI winds up much worse off routes wise than it might otherwise be.

[laviation]

BHX bubble burst when they had AA and UA both doing daily 757 to NYC

MAN bubble burst largely not of its own failure; COVID and the TCX collapse ended up with the loss of around 10 US destinations (now at 5)

[GeorgeNTravels]

The problem with these wish lists for yet more East Coast US destinations is that sooner or later the market gets saturated, the bubble bursts and EDI winds up much worse off routes wise than it might otherwise be.

Fully agree, signs of that showing already, Newark now double daily and at the same time JFK and DC see a reduction in pax numbers over the same period

[Flightrider]

My understanding is that any route support is through Visit Scotland and its criteria as to what are markets it particularly wants to focus on developing, which can change over time. There is no support directly from Scot Govt after the route development fund ended some time ago.

Aviation was specifically excluded from the Bute House Agreement with the Greens. The suggestion that funding didn’t come because of their input would therefore be a breach of an agreement which is already under some considerable scrutiny, and therefore all the less likely for it. Far more likely is that Scot Govt has run out of funding to channel into Visit Scotland given the state of the budget for this year and next.

[SWBKCB]

Currently closed due to runway repairs - again.

[ld0595]

Looks like it's open again

[NotanAVGeek]

I believe a United and BA went to GLA and 2 EZY went to NCL

[GoEDI]

Currently closed due to runway repairs - again.

Hindsight is a great thing, but the runway should have been resurfaced a couple years ago. It was already due by that point anyway, and the lack of movements would have made the project much less disruptive than it's now going to be, given volume of night movements these days. I can understand them freezing capital expenditure at the time on any expansion, but the runway resurfacing was a project needing done regardless.

So they're now in a situation whereby the runway condition is regularly affecting operations, as the surface is past it's intended lifespan, and the full rehabilitation project is not planned until W25/26, so good luck over the next couple years!

[Planeraz]

Hindsight is a great thing, but the runway should have been resurfaced a couple years ago. It was already due by that point anyway, and the lack of movements would have made the project much less disruptive than it's now going to be, given volume of night movements these days. I can understand them freezing capital expenditure at the time on any expansion, but the runway resurfacing was a project needing done regardless.

So they're now in a situation whereby the runway condition is regularly affecting operations, as the surface is past it's intended lifespan, and the full rehabilitation project is not planned until W25/26, so good luck over the next couple years!


The suggestion that runway resurfacing should have taken place a couple of years ago would have been credible, had it been “normal times”. I don’t know many companies who would have had the cash available or be willing to spend large sums of money given the pandemic. The aviation sector was virtually crippled. The Scottish Gov, had they got their way would have banned all air travel. The travel restrictions in Scotland were far tougher and lasted longer than England. It would have been crazy to spend large sums at that time given the uncertainty.

[SWBKCB]

Especially when you aren't a long term investor and are looking to sell.

Will the price be going down every time there is one of these shutdowns? I wouldn't buy a house with a dodgy roof!

[VickersVicount]

speaking of capital investment, whats the latest with any sale… is it actively on the market?

[NE_Scot_ABZ]

The suggestion that runway resurfacing should have taken place a couple of years ago would have been credible, had it been “normal times”. I don’t know many companies who would have had the cash available or be willing to spend large sums of money given the pandemic. The aviation sector was virtually crippled. The travel restrictions in Scotland were far tougher and lasted longer than England. It would have been crazy to spend large sums at that time given the uncertainty.
Were passenger numbers at LHR, LGW etc. not way down during the pandemic? I seemed to recall some bloke called Mr Dewar on TV, moaning to all and sundry saying he was ready for business. Once the industry opened up guess which airport has been the subject of many complaints, to this day, on social media for security, immigration and delayed baggage issues?

[Planeraz]

speaking of capital investment, whats the latest with any sale… is it actively on the market?

The last management meeting minutes detailed the planned spending. Unless, something “big” routes wise is announced, I doubt anything more substantial will be added. The next thing to look out for will be Delta’s S24 route plans. Will we see an upgrade of aircraft on the ATL route? Will one of the routes be dropped?

[Planeraz]

TK

Turkish scheduling more wide-body aircraft in mid September. Economy currently sold out on all inbound flights up to 13th Sept. It would appear they are also codesharing with BA on certain flights. Istanbul to Edinburgh via LHR is being offered.

[tartan 201]

The next thing to look out for will be Delta’s S24 route plans. Will we see an upgrade of aircraft on the ATL route? Will one of the routes be dropped?

How quickly things can change. Three months ago the hints were that they may add a new route, now the question is will one of their current routes will be dropped.
Delta
Another new route on the horizon? A couple of sources at EDI dropping hints that Delta, for S24, may announce another new route. The twin cities - MSP is rumoured to be the destination.

[Planeraz]

How quickly things can change. Three months ago the hints were that they may add a new route, now the question is will one of their current routes will be dropped.

Time will tell. Anything constructive to post or just rather immature snipes?

[Planeraz]

Ryanair

Recruitment drive at Edinburgh announced.

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-announces-50-cabin-crew-jobs-for-scotland/?market=en

[ATNotts]

Time will tell. Anything constructive to post or just rather immature snipes?
When it comes to immaturity, expecting constant growth and expansion in tough economic times is an excellent example!

[Planeraz]

When it comes to immaturity, expecting constant growth and expansion in tough economic times is an excellent example!

Ryanair clearly don’t agree with your pessimism.…

[ATNotts]

Ryanair clearly don’t agree with your pessimism.…
Ryanair may be recruiting for a variety of reasons, expansion and replacement of employees that have moved on being just two.

It's the constant unfettered expansion, or expectation of expansion on the North Atlantic routes I was thinking about.

[tictack67]

When it comes to immaturity, expecting constant growth and expansion in tough economic times is an excellent example!

Got to love the dichotomy that is Pprune.
With threads and threads such as Monarch Airlines, Lydd Airport, Carlisle Airport, Global airlines and Dundee getting an extra LHR a week from 2024

​​​We have the Edinburgh thread, despite physical evidential growth (LH night stopping A321, Turkish with several A330 rotations and Qatar coming with twice daily A350 on winter as well as Air Canada daily in Winter) it's full of Cassandras (see Greek mythology). so funny

[willy wombat]

While I appreciate the intellectual turn this thread has taken, are you sure you meant Cassandras? The thing about Cassandra was that her prophecies of doom came true which I assume is not what you are suggesting.

[VickersVicount]

Cassie says the occasional TK A330 for student return is same as last year 😂

[GeorgeNTravels]

Got to love the dichotomy that is Pprune.
With threads and threads such as Monarch Airlines, Lydd Airport, Carlisle Airport, Global airlines and Dundee getting an extra LHR a week from 2024

​​​We have the Edinburgh thread, despite physical evidential growth (LH night stopping A321, Turkish with several A330 rotations and Qatar coming with twice daily A350 on winter as well as Air Canada daily in Winter) it's full of Cassandras (see Greek mythology). so funny

Just a small correction, Air Canada is 3x week in winter

[nighthawk117]

Sorry, a little late to the scene.. but to return to the previous conversation:
What additional connections does PHL offer over the many served by flying through BOS, NYC, IAD, ORD and ATL? Very few I'd imagine
It's not about opening up new destinations, but rather about differing products. A lot of passengers will always favour a particular airline, or failing that, alliance. Currently the only option to get to Scotland with Oneworld is to connect through Heathrow or Dublin. As a result, there are a lot of oneworld members who either decide not to travel to scotland, or do so via LHR/DUB. Likewise for Edinburgh based passengers that fly to the US - they route via LHR or Dublin.

American entering the market doesnt open up new destinations, but instead provides another option for Oneworld members. To an extent it also makes Philadelphia more attractve for those wishing to travel to/from there, but the vast majority of passengers will be connecting.

It also provides extra competition, and will help drive down prices, offering more low fare options in advance, and offering more last minute opportunities, which might reduce the cost of overall fares charged elsewhere.

In terms of funding - governments offer all sorts of funds to all businesses. RIght now most councils will offer funding towards web development and other technologies. SImilarly, most governments offer funds through their tourism organisations to any business that increases tourism to the area. these are often arranged in terms of marketing support. Some councils will also offer fundings to airlines in terms of landing fee support. These have been around for a long time, and fall outside of the various schemes initiated by the national government.

As a result a new route to Scotland may sometimes in the past have received funding from 3 different places, with various offers of support available.

Currently the national government isnt offering a route development fund, so that's out, but various other forms of funding will still be available to any new entry to the market through VisitScotland and Edinburgh Council.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The only competitive way for Air Canada and United to be in the Scottish market is on their own metal as they no longer have BMI to codesharw with, backtracking from FRA/MUC on STAR partner LH is a competitive disadvantage, Delta less so with KLM via AMS. American's JV with BA out of LHR means they have 28 of their own flights to fill with BA out of Scotland helping that. American joining the party depends on the wider impact on those numbers I think.

[laviation]

Suffice to say discussions of DFW is a complete pipe dream . The bubble’s gonna burst at some point just as it did down at Manchester and at Glasgow

[tartan 201]

Suffice to say discussions of DFW is a complete pipe dream . The bubble’s gonna burst at some point just as it did down at Manchester and at Glasgow

You may well be right. However, as of March 2021 Transport Scotland were (perhaps they still are) looking at Dallas as an 'aspirational' route (source (https://archive2021.parliament.scot/CrossPartyGroups/Session5CrossPartyGroup/Minutes/Aviation_20210317.pdf)) so they at least didn't think it was a "complete pipe dream" then (maybe they've since found out that it is). I'm not saying it's likely, but you'll note that two of the other 'aspirational' destinations on that list (Atlanta and Beijing) have been secured (albeit both had operated before).

I'm not sure many people would consider EDI/GLA<>US as two separate markets, I would think of it more as mainly one Central Scotland<>US market. Viewed that way, I'm not sure Glasgow's US bubble burst as such, but rather much of its share of the Central Scotland<>US market has moved to Edinburgh. As I noted in this (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637162-edinburgh-4-a-82.html#post11485899) post, EDI/GLA<>US passenger numbers during the period January - June 2023 are 12% down on the same period in 2019. So if there is a bubble, there might be scope for it to inflate further before it bursts.

[inOban]

Sorry, a little late to the scene.. but to return to the previous conversation:

It's not about opening up new destinations, but rather about differing products. A lot of passengers will always favour a particular airline, or failing that, alliance. Currently the only option to get to Scotland with Oneworld is to connect through Heathrow or Dublin. As a result, there are a lot of oneworld members who either decide not to travel to scotland, or do so via LHR/DUB. Likewise for Edinburgh based passengers that fly to the US - they route via LHR or Dublin.

American entering the market doesnt open up new destinations, but instead provides another option for Oneworld members. To an extent it also makes Philadelphia more attractve for those wishing to travel to/from there, but the vast majority of passengers will be connecting.

It also provides extra competition, and will help drive down prices, offering more low fare options in advance, and offering more last minute opportunities, which might reduce the cost of overall fares charged elsewhere.

In terms of funding - governments offer all sorts of funds to all businesses. RIght now most councils will offer funding towards web development and other technologies. SImilarly, most governments offer funds through their tourism organisations to any business that increases tourism to the area. these are often arranged in terms of marketing support. Some councils will also offer fundings to airlines in terms of landing fee support. These have been around for a long time, and fall outside of the various schemes initiated by the national government.

As a result a new route to Scotland may sometimes in the past have received funding from 3 different places, with various offers of support available.

Currently the national government isnt offering a route development fund, so that's out, but various other forms of funding will still be available to any new entry to the market through VisitScotland and Edinburgh Council.
The major expansion by Aer Lingus is all the more reason for AA not to restart from EDI but to funnel OneWorld committed passengers through DUB.

[NotanAVGeek]

Really bad fuelling delays this afternoon, a combination of mechanical issues with some of the tankers and tankers being empty after all the widebody aircrafts. Had a major knock on effect for stand allocations as nothing was getting fuelled on time to be able to depart to free up a stand.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I note in 2023 that they put hydrant refuelling into PIK back in 1964, some 59 years ago. That was the future once. I think it's knackered now after 30 years of not being used.

[laviation]

You may well be right. However, as of March 2021 Transport Scotland were (perhaps they still are) looking at Dallas as an 'aspirational' route (source (https://archive2021.parliament.scot/CrossPartyGroups/Session5CrossPartyGroup/Minutes/Aviation_20210317.pdf)) so they at least didn't think it was a "complete pipe dream" then (maybe they've since found out that it is). I'm not saying it's likely, but you'll note that two of the other 'aspirational' destinations on that list (Atlanta and Beijing) have been secured (albeit both had operated before).

I'm not sure many people would consider EDI/GLA<>US as two separate markets, I would think of it more as mainly one Central Scotland<>US market. Viewed that way, I'm not sure Glasgow's US bubble burst as such, but rather much of its share of the Central Scotland<>US market has moved to Edinburgh. As I noted in this (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637162-edinburgh-4-a-82.html#post11485899) post, EDI/GLA<>US passenger numbers during the period January - June 2023 are 12% down on the same period in 2019. So if there is a bubble, there might be scope for it to inflate further before it bursts.

Not saying necessarily the route wouldn't work, just that the intentions of AA outside of LHR, MAD, BCN and DUB remain to be seen !

Manchester gets Houston via SQ which looks to be doing pretty well, going back to 5 weekly in 2024 although it is still a tag on.
UK > Texas seems to do quite well

[Planeraz]

Etihad/Air France W23

Codeshare expanded. EDI included as a codeshare (AF) destination. Will be interesting to see if AF pax numbers increase.

[Planeraz]

Air Traffic Control

The IT problems is starting to cause havoc. Lengthy departure delays of 7+ hours for many flights. BA’s 16:25 service to LHR is currently delayed to 03:25 tomorrow morning! I wonder if spoons will stay open later today? 😂

[Asturias56]

Air Traffic Control

The IT problems is starting to cause havoc. Lengthy departure delays of 7+ hours for many flights. BA’s 16:25 service to LHR is currently delayed to 03:25 tomorrow morning! I wonder if spoons will stay open later today? 😂
do they ever close?

[ld0595]

do they ever close?

10pm apparently

[Planeraz]

SunExpress S24

Antalya increasing from 5 x weekly to daily from July 24.
Izmir increasing to 2 x weekly.
Dalaman 2 x weekly.

[Breathe]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/japearson_edinburgh-scotland-uk-activity-7101646152126619648-760a?trk=public_profile_share_view

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/772x1157/screenshot_b94b8050e7851959616e5d198b4bf7ee2067aaa7.jpg

[Planeraz]

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/japearson_edinburgh-scotland-uk-activity-7101646152126619648-760a?trk=public_profile_share_view

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/772x1157/screenshot_b94b8050e7851959616e5d198b4bf7ee2067aaa7.jpg

In your opinion, should the airport be granted US Pre-clearance, would this lead to continued growth and new routes being secured? EDI management believe this would happen.

[GulfTraveller]

It would be interesting to know what the cost to the airport would be for pre clearance. It sounds as if the money might be better spent on infrastructure.

I strongly doubt it would attract new airlines or routes. The truth is that airlines are not hugely interested in how long it takes passengers to clear immigration, particularly if the pre clearance is reflected in the ticket price. If an airline sees potential financial benefit from a route, it willl try it, irrespective of facilities. Where it makes a difference is if an airport has a based airline which can funnel passengers between e.g. European and US flights. Edinburgh has no prospect of this (only LHR or LGW do in UK).

Given that such a large percentage of EDI passengers have US passports, it is of limited benefit. Would be better at LGW or MAN which have larger passenger numbers to US, paticulary off season, with a much higher percentage of non US passport holders. But they have traditionally been cool on the pre clearance idea. There must be a good reason for that which Mr.Dewar is unaware of.

[tartan 201]

It would be interesting to know what the cost to the airport would be for pre clearance. It sounds as if the money might be better spent on infrastructure.

£5m (source (https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.ctfassets.net%2F2hwzhse7s zu0%2F1JKMSdNk4Kev4GyU55edA6%2Fb9c71635bdc99e388f45eef8c2348 a94%2F2023_Q2_EACC_report.docx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK))

I strongly doubt it would attract new airlines or routes. The truth is that airlines are not hugely interested in how long it takes passengers to clear immigration, particularly if the pre clearance is reflected in the ticket price. If an airline sees potential financial benefit from a route, it willl try it, irrespective of facilities. Where it makes a difference is if an airport has a based airline which can funnel passengers between e.g. European and US flights. Edinburgh has no prospect of this (only LHR or LGW do in UK).

Airlines are interested in it because:

It reduces the minimum connection time at the US hub, so reduces the risk of connecting passengers being delayed at immigration and missing their onward flight and airlines having to spend time rebooking passengers.
They are charged a lower per-passenger handling fee at the US hub since the passengers are effectively domestic passengers and don't need to use the customs and immigration facility.
Passengers who are denied entry are kept on foreign soil and don't have to be processed and deported once they arrive on US soil as is currently the case, so saving the cost of repatriating inadmissible passengers.

Given that such a large percentage of EDI passengers have US passports, it is of limited benefit. Would be better at LGW or MAN which have larger passenger numbers to US, paticulary off season, with a much higher percentage of non US passport holders. But they have traditionally been cool on the pre clearance idea. There must be a good reason for that which Mr.Dewar is unaware of.

It's still of benefit to US passengers as they still need to clear US immigration on their arrival back in the US. LGW is interested in it (source (https://uk.linkedin.com/posts/edinburgh-airport_gatwick-airport-edinburgh-airport-and-pangiam-activity-7036979469735092224-NgwF)) and I'm sure MAN has been.

[SWBKCB]

In your opinion, should the airport be granted US Pre-clearance, would this lead to continued growth and new routes being secured? EDI management believe this would happen.

EDI management believe this would get them a higher price :ok:​​​​​​​

[Planeraz]

EDI management believe this would get them a higher price :ok:

One things for sure, the red carpet will be out for the arrival of the congressional committee members next month.

[nighthawk117]

I strongly doubt it would attract new airlines or routes. The truth is that airlines are not hugely interested in how long it takes passengers to clear immigration, particularly if the pre clearance is reflected in the ticket price. If an airline sees potential financial benefit from a route, it willl try it, irrespective of facilities. Where it makes a difference is if an airport has a based airline which can funnel passengers between e.g. European and US flights. Edinburgh has no prospect of this (only LHR or LGW do in UK).


The airlines are interested in how many passengers are willing to travel, and how much they are prepared to pay. The airport believes that offering pre-clearance makes the airport a more desireable departure point, and therefore encourages more transfers. Edinburgh hope that by adding pre-clearance, people will fly in to Edinburgh with Easyjet etc. then connect on to a US flight, thereby boosting numbers.

It may also encourage passengers to drive up to Edinburgh instead of flying through Manchester or Glasgow, as well as encouraging people to fly from Edinbugh instead of connecting elsewhere.

[Asturias56]

I t might affect Glasgow but certainly not Manchester - the travel times from south of the border are too long - tho maybe you'd pick up some Newcastle area transatlantic traffic

[nighthawk117]

I t might affect Glasgow but certainly not Manchester - the travel times from south of the border are too long - tho maybe you'd pick up some Newcastle area transatlantic traffic

I'm not saying it's going to devastate Manchester, but it might well attract a few passengers.It's only 3 hours on the train to Edinburgh, so some might well consider it. For those in Carlisle it's a definite swing towards flying from Edinburgh rather than Manchester. All together, you might attract enough passengers to justify it.

[Asturias56]

not from Carlisle.....................

[GSM763]

Is pre-clearance as big a draw as it once was? It makes more sense in Ireland as Irish citizens aren't eligible for Global Entry but given that any semi-regular traveller to the US would be well advised to get Global Entry, which allows them to use much shorter lines and an expedited process, is this as important as it would've been 15/20 years ago - particularly if the CBP photo recognition system eventually delivers what it promises.

[BA318]

Is pre-clearance as big a draw as it once was? It makes more sense in Ireland as Irish citizens aren't eligible for Global Entry but given that any semi-regular traveller to the US would be well advised to get Global Entry, which allows them to use much shorter lines and an expedited process, is this as important as it would've been 15/20 years ago - particularly if the CBP photo recognition system eventually delivers what it promises.

Many Europeans still can't use Global Entry and many people don't know about it. It's also a big pull for many once a year flyers. I know several families who specifically booked their Orlando flights with Aer Lingus connecting in Dublin because they heard about pre-clearance.

[Planeraz]

Many Europeans still can't use Global Entry and many people don't know about it. It's also a big pull for many once a year flyers. I know several families who specifically booked their Orlando flights with Aer Lingus connecting in Dublin because they heard about pre-clearance.

Re pre-clearance, the key benefit for pax arriving into the US is the ability to walk straight to baggage reclaim then be on your way. As it stands, right now, if you arrive at any major US airport without global entry and a number of other international flights arrive at same time, you could be looking at a very lengthy wait time to clear immigration. The last thing you want is to be standing in a long line full of tired and ratty passengers. This applies to both US nationals and visitors. As others have also commented, airlines have the benefit of reduced costs and turn around times for aircraft. Should pre-clearance be awarded to EDI, the airport would be joining a fairly exclusive club. Not many airports offer the service. An initial £5 million cost would appear to be a small price to pay in the grander scheme of things.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

You're not getting a pre-clearance facility for £5 million, that's an unrealistically low number. Why would EDI get US pre clearance when it has only 2 flights per day for 1/2 the year? Given United and Delta use different sides of the terminal in summer given the limited number of gates, can someone provide some explanation of how they actually plan to do this and for so little money in comparison to Dublin?
It really sounds like a lot of fanfare that will lead to nought beyond raising the visibility of EDI for a sale or for more US flights, nothing wrong with either but I genuinely don't see an EDI CBP facility as a realistic outcome.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Looks like Ryanair have made some cuts at EDI over the winter. Alicante is down from 7 to 3 flights. Budapest down from 5 to 4 and Bucharest is down from 3 to 2 weekly.

I haven’t had the chance to check the rest yet

[maxpeck]

When is the Ryanair S24 schedule released for Edinburgh?

[GeorgeNTravels]

When is the Ryanair S24 schedule released for Edinburgh?

I believe it’s normally September or early October.

[maxpeck]

I believe it’s normally September or early October.
Thanks, I will keep an eye out.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Looks like Ryanair have made some cuts at EDI over the winter. Alicante is down from 7 to 3 flights. Budapest down from 5 to 4 and Bucharest is down from 3 to 2 weekly.

I haven’t had the chance to check the rest yet

Just checked the rest. The full changes are as follows.

Alicante - 7 down to 3
Bucharest - 3 down to 2
Budapest - 4 down to 3
Copenhagen - 6 down to 3
Cork - 14 down to 8
Dublin - 30 down to 26
Dusseldorf Weeze - 3 down to 2
Fuertevenura - 3 down to 2
Gdansk - 4 down to 2
Lanzarote - 6 down to 5
Prague - 3 down to 2
Shannon - 4 down to 3
Vienna - 3 down to 2

Toulouse and Valencia are currently not on sale anymore

[Planeraz]

Just checked the rest. The full changes are as follows.

Alicante - 7 down to 3
Bucharest - 3 down to 2
Budapest - 4 down to 3
Copenhagen - 6 down to 3
Cork - 14 down to 8
Dublin - 30 down to 26
Dusseldorf Weeze - 3 down to 2
Fuertevenura - 3 down to 2
Gdansk - 4 down to 2
Lanzarote - 6 down to 5
Prague - 3 down to 2
Shannon - 4 down to 3
Vienna - 3 down to 2

Toulouse and Valencia are currently not on sale anymore

How’s Glasgow faring? Ryanair cutting frequencies all over their networks I understand.

[GeorgeNTravels]

How’s Glasgow faring? Ryanair cutting frequencies all over their networks I understand.

CRL back to summer only. Other than that no cuts to GLA or PIK ops.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Just checked the rest. The full changes are as follows.

Alicante - 7 down to 3
Bucharest - 3 down to 2
Budapest - 4 down to 3
Copenhagen - 6 down to 3
Cork - 14 down to 8
Dublin - 30 down to 26
Dusseldorf Weeze - 3 down to 2
Fuertevenura - 3 down to 2
Gdansk - 4 down to 2
Lanzarote - 6 down to 5
Prague - 3 down to 2
Shannon - 4 down to 3
Vienna - 3 down to 2

Toulouse and Valencia are currently not on sale anymore

Are these not just normal NS to NW frequency adjustments?
Most probably reducing the EDI flight for a few months and redeploying a few frames.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Are these not just normal NS to NW frequency adjustments?
Most probably reducing the EDI flight for a few months and redeploying a few frames.

No, these are changes from the original winter schedule that was put on sale.

[Planeraz]

Air Canada S24

Confirmation that AC will resume 1st March 2024, following the temp suspension.

https://t.co/Di1NDZJml2

[CabinCrewe]

Air Canada S24

Confirmation that AC will resume 1st March 2024, following the temp suspension.

https://t.co/Di1NDZJml2
Had half expected them to offer something year round.

[pabely]

Had half expected them to offer something year round.
It says operates from March to January so not far off.

[tictack67]

It says operates from March to January so not far off.


Not good enough for some it seems, unhappy it went from Rougue to Air Canada metal, and then to a 787 FROM A 737 max before it even started. 🤪

[CabinCrewe]

Not good enough for some it seems, unhappy it went from Rougue to Air Canada metal, and then to a 787 FROM A 737 max before it even started. 🤪
’if its a busy as we are told’ it would be year round, but thats seasonality for you.

[Planeraz]

’if its a busy as we are told’ it would be year round, but thats seasonality for you.

To put in some form of context. Air Canada clearly see the benefit of operating deep into winter. They’re not operating in the traditionally quiet winter months of January and February. Manchester with far larger pax numbers and catchment area can’t convince AC to operate a comparable service or even operate daily in the height of summer. This is good news for EDI.

[laviation]

MAN will have 3x weekly Transat A330 during the winter though.. around the same capacity as AC (minus the business class cabin)

[tictack67]

[QUOTE=CabinCrewe;11498258]’if its a busy as we are told’ it would be year round, but thats seasonality for you.[/QUOT.

bless

[Jamesair1]

Jet2 expanding at EDI next year with an additional a/c and some new routes.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Jet2 expanding at EDI next year with an additional a/c and some new routes.

Rome 2x week
Malta 1x week
Prague 2x week (full season from October)
Chambery 1x week from Feb

Skiathos has been dropped
Turin not loaded for next winter

Extra capacity on other routes too:

The destinations where additional flights and holidays have been added (peak weekly departures from Edinburgh Airport in brackets following the increases) are: Lanzarote (5), Malaga (5), Antalya (6), Bodrum (2), Larnaca (2), Gran Canaria (3), Naples (2), Split (2), Tenerife (8), Verona (2) and Zante (3).

[GeorgeNTravels]

Looks like WIZZ have dropped Gdańsk next summer. OTP and BUD loaded for the season and GDN has not been.

[Kinocker]

Jet2 expanding at EDI next year with an additional a/c and some new routes.

I hope they are expanding or relocating their check in area in that case.

Why would EDI get US pre clearance when it has only 2 flights per day for 1/2 the year?

Probably worth pointing out there is a preclearance facility at Shannon for a similar volume of traffic.

[Kinocker]

Sounds like another absolute shambles at EDI again this morning, everything being diverted to Glasgow.

The airport management needs cleared out from top to bottom at this point. Chasing after growth but not putting the infrastructure in place to cater for it. It's become an absolutely horrible experience as a passenger in recent years.

There are more than enough routes for now, invest in your facilities.

[ATNotts]

Probably worth pointing out there is a preclearance facility at Shannon for a similar volume of traffic.

Yes, but the Irish government perhaps has different priorities to the UK administrations when it comes to regional support.

[Link Kilo]

Perhaps fixing the runway should be their priority:

Q) EGPX/QMRLC/IV/NBO /A /000/999/5557N00322WA) EGPHB) 23/09/09 07:23 C) 23/09/09 08:20E) RWY 06/24 CLOSED DUE SURFACE BREAK UP

Multiple diversions this morning.

[FL 400]

Will start working again at 9:31

[Planeraz]

Sounds like another absolute shambles at EDI again this morning, everything being diverted to Glasgow.

The airport management needs cleared out from top to bottom at this point. Chasing after growth but not putting the infrastructure in place to cater for it. It's become an absolutely horrible experience as a passenger in recent years.

There are more than enough routes for now, invest in your facilities.

It’s not how private entities work. Growth = likely increased profits. I’d take growth any day of the week over stagnation, happy with what we’ve got attitude or we’ve got too much. You only need to look approx 50 miles west of EDI to see what results. Awful mismanagement, lack of ambition and they took their eye off the ball years ago. A decade of decline. Is EDI perfect? Absolutely not. Could facilities and infrastructure be upgraded - definitely.

[GeorgeNTravels]

It’s not how private entities work. Growth = likely increased profits. I’d take growth any day of the week over stagnation, happy with what we’ve got attitude or we’ve got too much. You only need to look approx 50 miles west of EDI to see what results. Awful mismanagement, lack of ambition and they took their eye off the ball years ago. A decade of decline. Is EDI perfect? Absolutely not. Could facilities and infrastructure be upgraded - definitely.

You’ve missed the point entirely, growth only works on solid foundations which for an airport is the runway (which is falling apart) and a terminal that’s over capacity.

You never seem able to accept that EDI does not need to have a route to every city globally.

if you’re a new airline looking at Scotland and do a simple Google search for Edinburgh Airport the news article paint a very different picture from the corporate bollocks being said by management.

With the comments on stagnation in Glasgow it’s true, but there are visible signs of recovery.

TUI adding 2 more 737’s. Jet2 adding another 737. Lufthansa resumes Munich, easyJet expected to add a 6th aircraft next year alongside 2 routes added for S23 and 2 for W23 with another resumption next summer. Increased Air Transat to Canada and Scotlands only Dubai service.

[Planeraz]

You’ve missed the point entirely, growth only works on solid foundations which for an airport is the runway (which is falling apart) and a terminal that’s over capacity.

You never seem able to accept that EDI does not need to have a route to every city globally.

if you’re a new airline looking at Scotland and do a simple Google search for Edinburgh Airport the news article paint a very different picture from the corporate bollocks being said by management.

With the comments on stagnation in Glasgow it’s true, but there are visible signs of recovery.

TUI adding 2 more 737’s. Jet2 adding another 737. Lufthansa resumes Munich, easyJet expected to add a 6th aircraft next year alongside 2 routes added for S23 and 2 for W23 with another resumption next summer. Increased Air Transat to Canada and Scotlands only Dubai service.

I’m expressing my point of view. 30+ years working in the private sector. I don’t accept that I’ve missed the point. My local airport is EDI. You are a known contributor in other forums and a supporter of GLA. That’s up to you. However, you appear to be very quick to post any negative news about EDI, I.e frequency reductions etc. Just an observation.

[GeorgeNTravels]

I’m expressing my point of view. 30+ years working in the private sector. I don’t accept that I’ve missed the point. My local airport is EDI. You are a known contributor in other forums and a supporter of GLA. That’s up to you. However, you appear to be very quick to post any negative news about EDI, I.e frequency reductions etc. Just an observation.

You will also find I’ve been highly critical of Glasgow Airport management both online and in person.

Im quick to post cuts at both airports and equally as quick to post growth at both airports as you can see with the Jet2 news announced this week.

Ive written extensively about the demise of Glasgow Airport, link below to the post.

http://georgentravels.com/2021/08/16/glasgow-airports-plummeting-success/

more criticism of GLA in this post:
http://georgentravels.com/2022/10/17/british-airways-cityflyer-what-a-flight/

Yeah, GLA is my local, but I’m by no means not going to call them out when deserved

[Kinocker]

Edinburgh has a huge geographical advantage over Glasgow. That's why it's growing, not because they have a bunch of geniuses managing the airport or anything like that. Edinburgh itself has become a more popular city to visit, while the location of the airport is far better suited to pulling in passengers from the rest of central and eastern Scotland than Glasgow, tucked away as it is to the west of the city.

But the facility is a nightmare to use. It's too small, it's understaffed and the runway is crumbling. All in the name of "growth".

You can move from an aviation discussion to a political one fairly quickly here without intending to but, in a general sense, the suggestion that "growth" at the expense of every other consideration is all that matters is a frankly depressing view of the world, and not one that I get the sense sits at all well with the wider British public at this moment in time. It's the reason why UK infrastructure is crumbling right across the country, from the airports to the rail networks to the cities.
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[Asturias56]

"You never seem able to accept that EDI does not need to have a route to every city globally."

Unfortunate that the view of most of the people who post on here about their local airport - just look at Southampton or Manchester for example on here

[SealinkBF]

You’ve missed the point entirely, growth only works on solid foundations which for an airport is the runway (which is falling apart) and a terminal that’s over capacity.

You never seem able to accept that EDI does not need to have a route to every city globally.

if you’re a new airline looking at Scotland and do a simple Google search for Edinburgh Airport the news article paint a very different picture from the corporate bollocks being said by management.

With the comments on stagnation in Glasgow it’s true, but there are visible signs of recovery.

TUI adding 2 more 737’s. Jet2 adding another 737. Lufthansa resumes Munich, easyJet expected to add a 6th aircraft next year alongside 2 routes added for S23 and 2 for W23 with another resumption next summer. Increased Air Transat to Canada and Scotlands only Dubai service.

The "corporate bollocks" ends at the price being offered.

[Sotonsean]

"You never seem able to accept that EDI does not need to have a route to every city globally."

Unfortunate that the view of most of the people who post on here about their local airport - just look at Southampton or Manchester for example on here

The Southampton thread is a much better and happier place without certain individuals. I'm sure those on the Manchester thread would also agree.

A warning to those on this thread, beware of the individual 's' who's only goal is to "stir things up". No real interest in the topics being discussed. Just here to out of boredom I think 🤔

[Asturias56]

"Stirring things up" = making reasonable points that gets the spotters and local heroes upset

I suggested that Southampton , with several other small airports (Shoreham for example) ,was likely to follow DSA, Manston & Plymouth into the hands of property developers (or the Council) in the next 10 years - not because they don't make money but because the pressure on land in S England is going to be immense.

This was not popular with some of the ra-ra crowd.

[tictack67]

Ladies this is the Edinburgh thread, there's a Glasgow thread to rejoice in Scotland's only Dubai Service, and a Southampton thread to discuss the woes of the airport with 1/17th of Edinburgh Pax numbers.

This thread is for discussion on Edinburgh, where we can rejoice in

Scotland's only direct services to Istanbul, Doha, Athens, Zurich, Brussels (BRU), Madrid, Calgary, Atlanta, Chicago, Washington, Boston, JFK, Vienna, Sofia, Bucharest, Stockholm, Riga, Budapest, Marseille, Gothenburg...

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