Edinburgh-4

[VickersVicount]

anything elsewhere immediately appears here so doubt you’re missing anything

[Planeraz]

FI

Another one to watch perhaps? Play entering the Glasgow market at the end of May. Icelandair do have slots at EDI for a daily service. A number of contributors on a Glasgow forum suggesting that FI moving along the M8 is a likely outcome.

[Flightrider]

Icelandair have no slots held at EDI nor an outstanding request. They cancelled them.

[Plane mad 134]

2nd daily Newark confirmed.

Link: https://twitter.com/mccartneyfrank1/status/1633529771811299360?t=9Ojh1RZowCZN9O_DIy15jA&s=19

[A350Saltire]

2nd daily Newark confirmed.

Link: https://twitter.com/mccartneyfrank1/status/1633529771811299360?t=9Ojh1RZowCZN9O_DIy15jA&s=19

Great news. Unbelievable how far EDI has come in TATL offerings. Long may it continue.

[Planeraz]

Great news. Unbelievable how far EDI has come in TATL offerings. Long may it continue.

Great news indeed. I wonder if the much rumoured aircraft upgrade on the IAD route will materialise? Will DL respond in some way?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Contextually for Scotland, it's the reinstatement of GLA-EWR to er....another airport 🏃‍♂️

The momentum and appetite to do business in the east is impressive! Well done EDI.

[A350Saltire]

Great news indeed. I wonder if the much rumoured aircraft upgrade on the IAD route will materialise? Will DL respond in some way?

I’ve heard the rumour that IAD will be changed to a 787. Will it happen? Absolutely no idea!

[ld0595]

Wow, fantastic news. I stay over in the west and despite this coming at our expense, it's great to see! There's a huge amount of capacity from the US to Edinburgh in the summer but hopefully this shows that the demand is there.

​​​​​​I know Edinburgh is very seasonal but it would be great to see EWR upgauged to a 767 when it drops down to once daily in the winter, or even better bringing ORD or IAD year round. Wishful thinking perhaps for this winter but it's early days.

[MKY661]

EasyJet's EDI-GIB route resuming on 1 December 2023:
https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1633795576570560513

[Planeraz]

TK - Easter 23

Turkish starting to make some aircraft changes for the up-coming Easter getaway. 1st April, A333 operating. More to follow I suspect given the price of economy seats on certain dates.

[ld0595]

Looks like that's the second daily Newark flights are now on sale. First one leaves Newark on 25 May, last one leaves Edinburgh on 29 September.

Departs Newark at 11:50pm and arrives at 11:40amDeparts Edinburgh at 1:30pm and arrives at 4:10pm

[VickersVicount]

Did the last summer double daily EWR stop because of or before covid?

[Planeraz]

Did the last summer double daily EWR stop because of or before covid?

Before covid. From memory dropped to daily when UA started IAD route in 2018.

[A350Saltire]

Before covid. From memory dropped to daily when UA started IAD route in 2018.

UA flights from EDI to the US have been performing so well they have added the second EWR back in alongside IAD and ORD.

[Planeraz]

EasyJet's EDI-GIB route resuming on 1 December 2023:
https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1633795576570560513

Already removed from sale. Looks like it was loaded in error.

[TBSC]

Wizz BUD-EDI is suspended for a month between 28MAR-21APR.

[Planeraz]

US Pre-Clearance

As mentioned by other contributors, EDI do appear to be pushing ahead with a genuine attempt to obtain US Pre-Clearance. S25 is the suggested start time if they succeed. Finance is in place for the application with detailed plans being drawn up for a redevelopment of the terminal to house the TSA area.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

What's the financial benefit to the airport in doing this? With the best will in the world the terminal is already way too small for the traffic it handles in summer.

[Planeraz]

What's the financial benefit to the airport in doing this? With the best will in the world the terminal is already way too small for the traffic it handles in summer.

I assume this is why plans is being drawn up to redevelop or extend the current terminal. £5 million has been allocated for the next stage of the application. Any extension or redevelopment of the terminal would clearly cost way more.

[CraigJay]

Does the number of US flights justify it? It will be mega quiet for much of the year other than a few summer months.

[Planeraz]

Does the number of US flights justify it? It will be mega quiet for much of the year other than a few summer months.

A valid point. A question that only EDI management can answer. They will have done their homework and obviously see this as an opportunity. It’s also an application supported by business from a cargo/trade point of view. Presumably they will have held discussions with airlines to sound them out about more year round services.

[ld0595]

Where is there space to expand? Either another level or continuing past Gate 29 into the Long Stay car park?

The check-in area is in dire need of expansion. It can barely handle the current number of flights/passengers as it is. Glad I have no plans to fly out during peak summer.

[gham89]

Where is there space to expand? Either another level or continuing past Gate 29 into the Long Stay car park?

Theres plenty of space where the old runway was, could easily add a pier heading towards the cargo ramp. Parking / gates really wouldn't be too hard to add, but as you point out, the core of the airport really needs expanding.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Theres plenty of space where the old runway was, could easily add a pier heading towards the cargo ramp. Parking / gates really wouldn't be too hard to add, but as you point out, the core of the airport really needs expanding.
I can't see them spending that much, they probably need to for customer experience BUT it's always about shareholder ROI and that's not clear to me as core winter would likely be one United and one Delta flight per day. So unless it's rolled into a genuine terminal expansion for wider use, seems a challenge IMHO.

Great way to generate PR and advertise summer 23 though! 🇺🇸

[willy wombat]

[QUOTE=Skipness One Foxtrot

Great way to generate PR and advertise summer 23 though! 🇺🇸[/QUOTE]

and generate interest for a sale.

[Aps473]

if you go to edinburgh skyscrapercity page 61 post by kenspeckle there is an image of the current airport expansion plans

[Planeraz]

if you go to edinburgh skyscrapercity page 61 post by kenspeckle there is an image of the current airport expansion plans

Do you have a link to the page and images? Unable to find.

[tartan 201]

Do you have a link to the page and images? Unable to find.
https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/edinburgh-airport-edi-news-developments.1479806/post-171944227

[Planeraz]

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threads/edinburgh-airport-edi-news-developments.1479806/post-171944227


great. Thanks

[gham89]

Looking at the 2024 land use image, the terminal looks to be the exact same.

I'm guessing their next natural expansion would indeed be to turn due south and into the car park (which looks to add maybe 3 more "heavy" gates?). The east pier extension would be a bigger investment.

[goldeneye]

As many of said, the biggest issue with EDI is the terminal and that it’s been extended over and over again.

A new terminal (replacement or additional) would certainly be an asset but I doubt the owners would be willing to spend that kind of money.

[Sk1schoolsam]

As many of said, the biggest issue with EDI is the terminal and that it’s been extended over and over again.

A new terminal (replacement or additional) would certainly be an asset but I doubt the owners would be willing to spend that kind of money.

Especially when it is supposedly up for sale. Getting any sort of meaningful caped for expansion I would expect to be very difficult while the ownership is up for change unless it drives significant value increase to the proposition with increased revenue- something the proposed Pre-clearance may bring but again only seasonally.
Don’t get me wrong I would love for both to happen as I fly regularly to the US and the 1-2hr waits at immigration are dull!

[A350Saltire]

IMHO EDI will not be the first of the two central belt airports to be sold…

[Planeraz]

Qatar W23

QR increasing from previously published 7 x weekly to 10 x weekly. Double service on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. 789 aircraft.

[nighthawk117]

As many of said, the biggest issue with EDI is the terminal and that it’s been extended over and over again.

A new terminal (replacement or additional) would certainly be an asset but I doubt the owners would be willing to spend that kind of money.

Why is the fact the terminal has been extended over and over again such a problem? It's been refurbished numerous times, so it's not like parts of it still look like the 1970s.
What specificaly is wrong with the current terminal, other than it being a bit small? Further extensions would soon sort that, no need to build a whole new terminal.

The only part of the terminal that drastically needs attention is the check in area. Now that traffic is no longer permitted immediately outside the airport terminal, there is an opportunity to expand the terminal out, creating more room for check in area on the ground floor, and more room for retail facilities on the upper floor.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Why is the fact the terminal has been extended over and over again such a problem? It's been refurbished numerous times, so it's not like parts of it still look like the 1970s.
What specificaly is wrong with the current terminal, other than it being a bit small? Further extensions would soon sort that, no need to build a whole new terminal.
The only part of the terminal that drastically needs attention is the check in area. Now that traffic is no longer permitted immediately outside the airport terminal, there is an opportunity to expand the terminal out, creating more room for check in area on the ground floor, and more room for retail facilities on the upper floor.
If you ever used LHR T1 in it's later years you'll know why add-ons are a pain.
It's an overcrowded and incoherent mess with no logical flow, long walks and way too much bussing. The South East pier can happily do all departures but international arrivals need a bus to the UK Border. The check in area is massively overcrowded in summer and is only going to get worse. The layout was never intended to push so many people through that little terminal, you would not ever clean sheet design it this way.
Take one example, will my Ryanair flight depart from Gate 1 or the furthest end of the South East pier? It's just painful in my experience. Add-ons only get you so far, there comes a point you need to think strategically and not tactically. BUT it won't happen as the ROI likely isn't there without the taxpayer stepping in.
AND before anyone leaps to defend EDI, I say this only in the hope that they can better the customer experience, not just to attack the airport....

[GSM763]

The EDI check-in hall is a mess and I say that as someone who generally quite likes the airport. They have tried every trick in the book to get maximum value out of the limited space - from the pods, to extending it into arrivals to twilight check-in. In a sense, it's quite admirable what they've managed to do with a very limited design but we are really, really pushing at the limits of that now.

[nighthawk117]

The EDI check-in hall is a mess and I say that as someone who generally quite likes the airport. They have tried every trick in the book to get maximum value out of the limited space - from the pods, to extending it into arrivals to twilight check-in. In a sense, it's quite admirable what they've managed to do with a very limited design but we are really, really pushing at the limits of that now.

As I said, that can easily be fixed now that trafifc no longer uses the road outside, apart from busses. Re-route the busses, then expand out across where the road used to be. That will provide a lot more space in the check in area.

They built new immigration and customs facilities a few years back next to the new widebody stands. The South East pier could easily be modified to allow access in to this by building a second bridge over Gogar Burn for arrivals.

I really dont think a new terminal is needed, there's plenty that can be done to address issues with the current terminal should they wish to.

[CabinCrewe]

.

They built new immigration and customs facilities a few years back next to the new widebody stands.
Which is horrific, like a shed or prison block. I wouldn’t promote any more of that sort of add-on as a welcome to international arrivals

[A350Saltire]

Which is horrific, like a shed or prison block. I wouldn’t promote any more of that sort of add-on as a welcome to international arrivals

It was only supposed to be temporary until the terminal expansion to the east and south happened although the pandemic kind of altered those plans. It still has a very temporary feel about it.

[TBSC]

Wizz BUD-EDI is suspended for a month between 28MAR-21APR.
Extended until 08JUN, then it will be down from 3x to 2x weekly (if it returns).

[Planeraz]

Extended until 08JUN, then it will be down from 3x to 2x weekly (if it returns).

Classic Wizz behaviour. Warsaw route about to be dropped. Budapest “suspended” for a few months. Probably dropped. Only a couple of days ago they were advertising Abu Dhabi from EDI via Budapest…

[Planeraz]

January 2023

Pax totals and approx load factors for certain routes.

United

Newark - 8050 - 83%

Delta

JFK - 5771 - 75%

Turkish

Istanbul - 10,424 - 96%

Qatar

Doha - 14,918 - 98%

[ld0595]

Pretty decent considering January is very much one of the lowest seasons.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Can I ask a dumb question, never having landed internationally into EDI? How do they balance UK Border staffing needs vs. stand allocations against the two international arrivals halls? Aren't they by neccesity over staffed vs. one single facility?

[Planeraz]

Can I ask a dumb question, never having landed internationally into EDI? How do they balance UK Border staffing needs vs. stand allocations against the two international arrivals halls? Aren't they by neccesity over staffed vs. one single facility?

Both halls have e-gates which accommodate UK and Irish nationals. This takes some pressure off border officers. BCO’s will flip between both halls depending on arrivals. Peak season is a different matter. With more North American arrivals than ever before in S23 and more wide body aircraft along with double daily QR 788’s, the terminal arrivals areas will be stretched to the limit at peak times. Another factor to note is the set-up of the gates. Particularly at the old arrivals side. When an aircraft arrives and is attached to a bridge, no boarding can take place at other gates until pax have cleared the area. Not ideal at all. I should think more officers will be required in S23.

[ld0595]

Air Canada now extending the Toronto route to the winter months. Between 30 October and 8th January, they'll have 3x weekly flights. ​​https://corporate.edinburghairport.com/edinburgh-airport-air-canada-service-to-extend-into-winter-months

[Planeraz]

Delta W23

EDI-JFK increasing from 5 x weekly to daily. A return to year round daily. As in W22, more premium heavy 763, offering premium select operating in winter months.

[ld0595]

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2023/03/29/ceo-atif-saeed-phl-airport-preparation-for-2026.html

The new CEO of Philadelphia Airport has also gone on the record stating that he's working with AA to restore all of Philadelphia's lost routes, including Edinburgh.

“Our primary focus right now is to prepare our airport for 2026, and that work starts yesterday,” Saeed said during a recent Philadelphia Business Journal tourism event in Center City.

To do so, PHL is working on bringing back routes that stopped flying during the pandemic due to a lack of demand and improving the customer experience throughout the airport.

Saeed, who was hired in October to oversee PHL and started in December (https://archive.ph/o/W1ygC/https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2022/12/15/atif-saeed-phl-recovery-growth.html), said the airport predicts that visitation will recover to monthly 2019 levels in late 2025 and has set a goal of achieving annual recovery in 2026.

In terms of flights, PHL is still missing 23 domestic routes and 12 international routes out of the 150 domestic and 40 international routes it boasted pre-pandemic.

The missing domestic flights aren’t as concerning, according to Saeed, although he wants to get them back on the schedule. Of the 23 missing, 21 are shorter regional flights served by small passenger planes that were cut because of a lack of demand during the pandemic.

As for international service, Saeed wants to regain all of the 12 missing routes in 2024. Specific destinations he wants to see make their return are Reykjavik, Iceland; Edinburgh, Scotland; Manchester, England; Budapest, Hungary; Berlin, Germany; and Prague, Czech Republic.

PHL is currently working with American Airlines (NASDAQ: AAL) to see what can be done to put these flights back on the schedule.

Saeed believes bringing international flights back could in turn grow the need for regional flights, which partially serve as quick connections to get overseas travellers to their international flights out of Philadelphia. He said the recovery of business travel would also help increase the number of routes and frequency of flights flown to and from PHL.
​​​​​​​


​​​​​​​

[inOban]

In which previous years were there daily flights to JFK in winter, let alone with another flight to EWR?

[A350Saltire]

It would be great to see AA back with a route to PHL. They must be looking at the offering to EDI from both UA and DL and thinking why not! I presume it’s lack of suitable aircraft at the moment that’s stopping it from happening.

[laviation]

Would love to see AA back at EDI and MAN. However, could mean United/Delta may have to cut frequencies as 3x daily to New York, 1x daily to Philadelphia, summer seasonals to Chicago and Dulles too seems quite a lot!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It would be great to see AA back with a route to PHL. They must be looking at the offering to EDI from both UA and DL and thinking why not! I presume it’s lack of suitable aircraft at the moment that’s stopping it from happening.
Lack of aircraft AND the knowledge they feed LHR with BA domestic, United and Air Canada lost BMI so if they want market share, they have to use their own metal once more. The formation of STAR and British Midland codeshares saw United pull Glasgow and Air Canada drop to summer only. Even NWA dropped Scottish ops in favour of KLM feed over AMS. The clock turns...

[Planeraz]

Lack of aircraft AND the knowledge they feed LHR with BA domestic, United and Air Canada lost BMI so if they want market share, they have to use their own metal once more. The formation of STAR and British Midland codeshares saw United pull Glasgow and Air Canada drop to summer only. Even NWA dropped Scottish ops in favour of KLM feed over AMS. The clock turns...

American expect delivery of its 321XLR end of 2023/ early 2024. 20 flagship first suites and 12 premium economy. This will be a game changer for routes like PHL-EDI. A number of this aircraft will be based out of PHL and CLT. They should also have the option of 788’s in 2024, should demand be as good as it was previously on the route.

[Planeraz]

Air Canada now extending the Toronto route to the winter months. Between 30 October and 8th January, they'll have 3x weekly flights. ​​https://corporate.edinburghairport.com/edinburgh-airport-air-canada-service-to-extend-into-winter-months

W23

Flights now on sale. Monday, Thursday and Saturday from EDI. B789 is the operating aircraft.

[Planeraz]

Would love to see AA back at EDI and MAN. However, could mean United/Delta may have to cut frequencies as 3x daily to New York, 1x daily to Philadelphia, summer seasonals to Chicago and Dulles too seems quite a lot!

If AA do return, I don’t see United or Delta reducing capacity or running scared. PHL is one of American’s hub. Great for connection via DFW or DEN or Austin which is fast turning into a big operation for AA. The days when Americans could only reach Scotland via Heathrow (BA) is gone. I’d avoid LHR every day of the week if I could.

[Breathe]

American expect delivery of its 321XLR end of 2023/ early 2024. 20 flagship first suites and 12 premium economy. This will be a game changer for routes like PHL-EDI. A number of this aircraft will be based out of PHL and CLT. They should also have the option of 788’s in 2024, should demand be as good as it was previously on the route.
From what I last read, because the A321XLR delays, AA aren't expecting the receive their first model until Q4 2024. I suspect if they do come back, they'll either put the 787-8 on the route next year or wait until 2025 when they have sufficient A321XLR planes/crew, and continue to funnel their passengers via BA through their joint venture until then.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

. The days when Americans could only reach Scotland via Heathrow (BA) is gone.
When was this last the case? Pre Continental at GLA in 1998 surely may have been the one season with nothing, I'd need to check. Was there ever a winter with no scheduled direct US flights in our lifetimes?
Point is AA don't need to serve EDI to have market share, DL and UA do. It's often one stop regardless of EDI-LHR-USA or USA-US hub-EDI.

[SWBKCB]

When was this last the case? Pre Continental at GLA in 1998 surely may have been the one season with nothing, I'd need to check. Was there ever a winter with no scheduled direct US flights in our lifetimes?


BOAC from Prestwick?

[ld0595]

W23

Flights now on sale. Monday, Thursday and Saturday from EDI. B789 is the operating aircraft.

And it appears to recommence on 2nd March from Edinburgh so it restarts after only a two month hiatus. Pretty good going considering they only started mainline service at Edinburgh in 2022 and originally had planned to use the 737 MAX.

[laviation]

It baffles me how Air Canada plan to have daily A330 flights to MAN from June to October yet still won’t commit to a year round service… Air Transat capitalising on this mess

[Asturias56]

well they have many years of flying UK-Canada destinations - I'm pretty sure they know the market inside out

June Oct is the holiday season so presumably they see little business traffic

[CabinCrewe]

will be interesting to see the loads on a 789 (if that’s what ultimately comes) in depths of January. But as you say, hopefully they know the market and the Star Alliance opportunities.

[tartan 201]

will be interesting to see the loads on a 789 (if that’s what ultimately comes) in depths of January. But as you say, hopefully they know the market and the Star Alliance opportunities.

I don't think it'll be that interesting. The service stops on the 8th January, so not very far into the "depths" and the few January flights they operate will no doubt still have some post Xmas / New Year VFR traffic.

Point is AA don't need to serve EDI to have market share, DL and UA do. It's often one stop regardless of EDI-LHR-USA or USA-US hub-EDI.

DL could similarly funnel people USA>CDG/AMS>EDI but choose to serve EDI directly. AA did see a need to serve EDI directly prior to COVID and I don't see what's fundamentally changed that that need is no longer there (accepting they don't currently have the means to do so).

The "often one stop regardless" point is true only if your origin / destination in the US has a direct AA or BA service to LHR. If not you'd have to route XXX>US hub>LHR>EDI. A direct AA service would allow you to route XXX>PHL>EDI if your origin / destination in the US has a link to PHL.

​​​​​Same point applies to those trips originating from the EDI catchment. ​​There must be plenty of high-status OW cardholders in the EDI catchment who would value a direct OW service to the US rather than changing at LHR. (Similar point made here (https://www.pprune.org/9088189-post642.html) in relation to QR at EDI).

[inOban]

Don't most one-stop pax to the US use DUB as the stop? I thought that such traffic sustained the Emerald /Air Lingus services from EDI in competition with FR.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Fair point but American got lazy, their European network is a poor 3rd to the other 2 because of BA's dominance at LHR. It used to be world leading in the B767-200 days, they pioneered smaller European airports to the US. Could they make EDI work? No doubt! Is there a real appetite to try? TBC.

[tartan 201]

Could they make EDI work? No doubt! Is there a real appetite to try? TBC.

Almost certainly. Only question is whether they resume the route before or after the A321XLRs become available. Once they have enough of them, there's also a reasonable chance the service continues through the winter (perhaps not daily and perhaps with a gap in January and February).

[Asturias56]

"Don't most one-stop pax to the US use DUB as the stop?"

yeah so you can clear US immigration in a civilised manner and just get off on final arrival and get the hire car

[tartan 201]

Don't most one-stop pax to the US use DUB as the stop? I thought that such traffic sustained the Emerald /Air Lingus services from EDI in competition with FR.

I imagine it accounts for some, but unlikely that it accounts for most. Taking today's departures as an example, there's only two departures to DUB before midday (one A320, one ATR72), compared to four to LHR. I'd assume that the latter accounts for a plurality of such transfers given the range of US destinations on offer (pre-clearance at the former notwithstanding).

[inOban]

But won't many/most of these LHR transfers be heading further S or E rather than transatlantic?

[tartan 201]

But won't many/most of these LHR transfers be heading further S or E rather than transatlantic?

It's quite possible that that's the case. Even if it was though, it could still also be the case that the number of passengers who travel EDI-LHR to connect to/from the USA is more than the number who travel EDI-DUB for that purpose. Somebody somewhere will have data that answers this question definitively, but I'm afraid that person isn't me.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

But won't many/most of these LHR transfers be heading further S or E rather than transatlantic?
No, DUB has a fraction of the Oneworld transatlnatic options that LHR does as well as the lounge facilities the people in the front cabins demand. Not to mention avoiding flying on a prop.

[GAXLN]

No, DUB has a fraction of the Oneworld transatlnatic options that LHR does as well as the lounge facilities the people in the front cabins demand. Not to mention avoiding flying on a prop.

Also interesting to note that if you want BA Tier Points then you have to book BA and that is at a significant premium to EI fares via DUB from EDI taking a quick look at ORD in June.

[monkey.tennis]

Any idea why flights are diverting at the moment?

[tartan 201]

Any idea why flights are diverting at the moment?

Runway closed for an emergency repair. Reopened now though.

[Planeraz]

UA S23

EDI-IAD

764 returning on 26/5 from IAD until 28/5. 752 still currently showing as operating aircraft on other dates. More changes likely.

[tartan 201]

UA S23

EDI-IAD

764 returning on 26/5 from IAD until 28/5. 752 still currently showing as operating aircraft on other dates. More changes likely.

The 764 seems to be operating Saturday and Sunday departures from EDI up to and including Sunday 18th June.

[tartan 201]

Future Flight: US and Canadian route growth from Edinburgh Airport ‘absolutely out of this world’The expansion of transatlantic air routes from Edinburgh is “absolutely out of this world”, but Scotland’s busiest airport does not expect to return to pre-pandemic passenger levels overall until next year, one of its leading officials has told The Scotsman.

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/future-flight-us-and-canadian-route-growth-from-edinburgh-airport-absolutely-out-of-this-world-4097001

Behind a paywall, but includes this:

Ms Sherry said further transatlantic development was currently focused on the hubs of Edinburgh’s existing airlines.

[inOban]

I'm surprised that they're not expecting to reach pre-pandemic level until next. year, since both FR and Easyjet have more based aircraft than then. Apart from EK, what are the significant losses?

[tartan 201]

I'm surprised that they're not expecting to reach pre-pandemic level until next. year, since both FR and Easyjet have more based aircraft than then. Apart from EK, what are the significant losses?

Flybe and a general reduction in domestic traffic, which seems to have reached a plateau of about 70% of its pre-pandemic level.

[Planeraz]

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/future-flight-us-and-canadian-route-growth-from-edinburgh-airport-absolutely-out-of-this-world-4097001

Behind a paywall, but includes this:

In relation to further expansion with existing airlines and their hubs. United other hubs being Denver, Houston and LAX. Denver has been rumoured previously along with LAX. Delta other hubs being Seattle, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Detroit and LAX. As the CEO mentioned, lots of scope for more growth. A direct west coast route would be a major breakthrough.

[CabinCrewe]

LAX at a push, the others I don’t see at all. Does LAX have any seasonal 9hr+ regional international routes?

[ld0595]

LAX at a push, the others I don’t see at all. Does LAX have any seasonal 9hr+ regional international routes?

A quick glance on Wikipedia suggests that Oslo and Vienna seem to be the only seasonal long haul routes but they're not flown by the US3.

None of the US3 have any European presence from LAX outside of London and Paris. I've said it here before but I can't see who would fly to LAX from Edinburgh other than Virgin at a push. I believe they used to fly from Manchester a few years ago.

[Planeraz]

Emirates

UK & Europe VP quoted in an interview that he is sure that Emirates will return to EDI in the future. I wonder if this will happen when EK take delivery of the 787’s?

"We've got a second Glasgow flight to come at some point. Edinburgh we haven't really started with yet but, that will come at some point in the future I'm sure. Its all driven by aircraft capacity so there's no timeline at the moment but we are working hard to bring our aircraft back into service".

[tartan 201]

In relation to further expansion with existing airlines and their hubs. United other hubs being Denver, Houston and LAX. Denver has been rumoured previously along with LAX. Delta other hubs being Seattle, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Detroit and LAX. As the CEO mentioned, lots of scope for more growth. A direct west coast route would be a major breakthrough.

LAX at a push, the others I don’t see at all. Does LAX have any seasonal 9hr+ regional international routes?
​​​​​​
The Scotsman article linked to above quotes the EDI spokesperson as saying
Ms Sherry said: "I’m not sure if west coast America will be happening that quickly. But definitely over the long term as airline fleets evolve, there are a huge amount of new routes or growth in the US that we could go for.”?

So the next US destination for EDI is unlikely to be on the west coast. IAH might be possible. There is presumably some oil and gas related traffic to and from Aberdeen that might use a direct EDI service in preference to changing somewhere. It's a large UA hub, which they currently link with AMS, LHR, FRA and MUC in Europe.

[SWBKCB]

Ms Sherry said further transatlantic development was currently focused on the hubs of Edinburgh’s existing airlines.

Not seen the full quote, so haven't got the context but could this mean volume/frequency to existing hubs rather than adding more?

[Asturias56]

"There is presumably some oil and gas related traffic to and from Aberdeen that might use a direct EDI service in preference to changing somewhere."

That's been looked at since the 1970's - the preference was always a direct from ABZ - if you have to drive from ABZ to EDI and park the car or take the train you might as well go via LHR

[Sk1schoolsam]

Not seen the full quote, so haven't got the context but could this mean volume/frequency to existing hubs rather than adding more?

I may be reading all these quotes out of context having not seen the full article either but I agree. The quote appears more in the past tense and that the route growth has happened already through adding Atlanta and doubling Newark and increase in JFK W23.
EDI can barely hold a seasonal MCO route let alone any other US route expansion.
At best it would be transforming another seasonal HUB route to all year round but doubt that too.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Emirates

UK & Europe VP quoted in an interview that he is sure that Emirates will return to EDI in the future. I wonder if this will happen when EK take delivery of the 787’s?

"We've got a second Glasgow flight to come at some point. Edinburgh we haven't really started with yet but, that will come at some point in the future I'm sure. It’s all driven by aircraft capacity so there's no timeline at the moment but we are working hard to bring our aircraft back into service".

So no EK return to EDI in S23 or W23 likely at this point.
when are EK due to get B787’s? Are the 789 or 781?

[tartan 201]

I may be reading all these quotes out of context having not seen the full article either but I agree. The quote appears more in the past tense and that the route growth has happened already through adding Atlanta and doubling Newark and increase in JFK W23.
EDI can barely hold a seasonal MCO route let alone any other US route expansion.
At best it would be transforming another seasonal HUB route to all year round but doubt that too.
​​​​​​
Since the quote refers to "further transatlantic development" it's unlikely to be referring to developments that have already happened. I agree, however, that it's more likely that it refers to extending the period of operation of some of the existing seasonal hub routes rather than to introducing a new hub service.

I'm not sure what MCO (more attractive to outbound UK leisure passengers) can tell us about routes from other US hubs (which would be attractive to outbound US passengers). It certainly didn't prevent DL launching ATL and UA adding a second EWR.

[inOban]

This may not be the best thread, but what proportion of EK passengers are using Dubai as a hub, and how many are (for reasons I can't begin to understand ) going there on holiday? I assume that QR are almost entirely transfer PAX.

[CabinCrewe]

The connecting/transfer rate is above 70% at DXB for EK.

[willy wombat]

In Oban. Why are you so disparaging about Dubai as a holiday destination? Great weather (apart from in the summer), very safe, good restaurants etc. Frankly I’d rather spend a week there than in Oban (and I’ve been to both).

[inOban]

It's all a matter of taste, I suppose. I wouldn't want to visit any of the Costas is summer either, something with a bit of history is more my style.

[01475]

While I get that the other attractions are real, it's beyond me why anyone would go to a country with such an arbitrary legal system (esp one that doesn't quite treat women as real people)! I'd rather there were flights from Edinburgh to Obanm, even if it involved spending a wet bank holiday weekend in a faded overpriced B&B :D

[Planeraz]

So no EK return to EDI in S23 or W23 likely at this point.
when are EK due to get B787’s? Are the 789 or 781?

Some 789’s due for delivery 1st quarter 2024. This is optimistic according to Emirates. 359’s - August 2024 at earliest.

[nighthawk117]

I've seen it said online by EDI route development employees that 9 out of 10 passengers travelling to the US do so via a UK/European hub. It is this market that they are targeting by launching new US destinations.

LAX have also in the past issued a wish list of destinations they'd like to see served, with Scotland being one of those shortlisted. I think the most likely to operate that is probably Virgin, although they dont seem to be doing overly well at EDI at the moment, so I think expansion might be some way off.

I think the next US flight we will see will be AA rejoining the market, probably in 2 years time when they get the A321XLRs. Possibly Delta to Atlanta.

[inOban]

Delta to Atlanta starts this summer.

[tictack67]

As much as a Dubai service would be nice, I'm sure we can find something of interest to travel or holiday in between Edinburgh's 34 countries served this summer direct without connecting anywhere

[Asturias56]

"it's beyond me why anyone would go to a country with such an arbitrary legal system (esp one that doesn't quite treat women as real people)!"

have you been there? Women own and run some pretty big businesses in the UAE - especially in Dubai. The main issue I understand is that affects local women is the inheritance laws which aren't very good. We know a couple of English girls in their 30's who are single and have moved there - one is a senior lawyer, the other has moved her UK business to Dubai because she can do so much better there. No problems, no hassles and they feel a lot safer than they did in the UK. We know several Arab girls who are non-residents but who run their own businesses or are in senior management positions in Dubai companies - again no problems.

As to arbitrary legal systems people go to places like Singapore and Turkey all the time.

Overseas is never the same as home sweet home but there are a lot worse places to be than the UAE

[tictack67]

"Overseas is never the same as home sweet home but there are a lot worse places to be than the UAE

Conversely there are a lot better and more tolerant places to be than the UAE...

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirates/local-laws-and-customs

[inOban]

I think that, so long as you have enough money, the rules don't apply, in the UAE or in many other places including the UK.

[NotanAVGeek]

EDI took in a United 767 divert today ORD-LHR. Was parked over on the cargo apron.

[Porrohman]

EDI took in a United 767 divert today ORD-LHR. Was parked over on the cargo apron.
It entered the hold at FL120 south of London at 12:20 UTC, descended to FL90 during twice around the holding point, left the hold at 12:32 UTC and carried out one missed approach from circa 750ft at 12:45 UTC before diverting. It only climbed to FL180, declared an emergency at 13:19 UTC, squawking 7700, whilst over Manchester, and subsequently climbed to just FL200 before landing at EDI at 13:52 UTC. The aircraft has night stopped at EDI and is due to depart for LHR this morning.

www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n674ua#2fdd3d90 (http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7242798&u=https%3A//www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n674ua%232fdd3d90)

www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-airport-united-airlines-flight-from-chicago-to-london-makes-emergency-landing-in-edinburgh-4102002 (http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7242798&u=https%3A//www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-airport-united-airlines-flight-from-chicago-to-london-makes-emergency-landing-in-edinburgh-4102002)

[Wycombe]

carried out one missed approach from circa 750ft

If you've not seen the footage on BigJetTV (which was also used by the BBC and Sky News yesterday), it was a bit lower than that!

Edit: Short excerpt now available showing the go-around in question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmBhYAsGEVs

[nebpor]

Off to JFK with Delta on Sunday - any recent experience of the check-in queue length? Last time I was there last summer, it was nearly 2 hours! Need to check a bag as i've some whisky to take ...

Thanks in advance

[Sk1schoolsam]

Off to JFK with Delta on Sunday - any recent experience of the check-in queue length? Last time I was there last summer, it was nearly 2 hours! Need to check a bag as i've some whisky to take ...

Thanks in advance

very quick and easy when I flew the same route a few weeks back. Doing it again on the 24th April too.
The biggest challenge is the hour plus wait for immigration at JFK unfortunately

[Porrohman]

I see that the Delta B763 that diverted from LHR to EDI is spending a third night at EDI and FR24 doesn't show a scheduled departure time yet. I originally thought there might have been a crew rest period needed before departure, hence the first and possibly second overnight stops but, given that it's now spending a third night at EDI, it can't be that. Maybe the emergency wasn't for fuel?

[Planeraz]

TK

A 332 yesterday and a 333 operating today. Turkish continuing to do very well to/from EDI. I wonder if the Pakistan codeshare has something to do with it?

[GulfTraveller]

It is the same at most or all TK’s UK destinations. I believe MAN today has 777, A333 and A321. It is the end of the Easter holidays.

Seanm1997 notes that in TK’s expansion plans it is looking at GLA. I think the market from there is likely to be larger than EDI.

[BHX5DME]

It is the same at most or all TK’s UK destinations. I believe MAN today has 777, A333 and A321. It is the end of the Easter holidays.

Seanm1997 notes that in TK’s expansion plans it is looking at GLA. I think the market from there is likely to be larger than EDI.

BHX is a A332 and B39M today

[Planeraz]

It is the same at most or all TK’s UK destinations. I believe MAN today has 777, A333 and A321. It is the end of the Easter holidays.

Seanm1997 notes that in TK’s expansion plans it is looking at GLA. I think the market from there is likely to be larger than EDI.

If the market at GLA is larger, you have to ask why they haven’t started services to/from long before now? TK aren’t slow in taking up new opportunities. Perhaps GLA management haven’t offered big enough incentives?

[GrahamK]

The market from GLA-India/Pakistan is much larger than EDI-India/Pakistan VFR wise.

[CabinCrewe]

The market from GLA-India/Pakistan is much larger than EDI-India/Pakistan VFR wise.
I’m not sure that is the case now… Where is the boundary?
Eastbound connections beyond Europe was sewn up by EK at GLA. The first few years of QR and ill fated EY at EDI were not much to write home about so presume TK (no doubt with incentive) chose to grab the spoils at EDI. TK team were certainly seen at GLA back then. I personally wouldn’t thank you for another transfer through IST. Would be interesting to know the TK transfer percentage if EK etc is >75%

[inOban]

It seems that longhaul carriers, whether flying east or south, have chosen to operate from either Edinburgh or Glasgow but not both. Makes business sense to me.

[billyg]

Seanm1997 notes that in TK’s expansion plans it is looking at GLA. I think the market from there is likely to be larger than EDI.

Glasgow and Bristol have been added to their map of destinations .

[Sk1schoolsam]

Glasgow and Bristol have been added to their map of destinations .

Or they could just double EDI again, and increase airframe size, and people can drive a few extra KM 😉😉😉😆😆😆😆😆

[toon22]

A factor in the EDI/GLA debate is that Edinburgh is a far bigger draw for inbound, passengers than Glasgow. That’s the choice most overseas carriers have made in the past few years. Filling an aircraft from both ends of a route is the ideal scenario and Edinburgh ticks the box far better than Glasgow. I very much doubt that Edinburgh Airport is getting the cheque-book out these days.

[nebpor]

very quick and easy when I flew the same route a few weeks back. Doing it again on the 24th April too.
The biggest challenge is the hour plus wait for immigration at JFK unfortunately

You were bang on the money - I checked in online (didn't let me last year), walked straight up to bagdrop and it was effectively instant.

Then stood for an hour at JFK!!

[CabinCrewe]

You were bang on the money - I checked in online (didn't let me last year), walked straight up to bagdrop and it was effectively instant.

Then stood for an hour at JFK!!
What was the product and service like on the old 763?

[tartan 201]

Qatar now bookable twice-daily every day for the forthcoming winter season. B788 on the morning flight and B789 on the afternoon one.

[Planeraz]

Qatar now bookable twice-daily every day for the forthcoming winter season. B788 on the morning flight and B789 on the afternoon one.

Great news. Double daily year round. 789 operating both flights on certain Xmas dates.

[nebpor]

What was the product and service like on the old 763?

I love the 763 - 2-3-2 means a nice cabin feeling of space. Seat was decent, IFE not bad albeit limited library

Service warm and friendly - I've been on Delta a few times now and it's always been good!

[Planeraz]

Feb 2023 Stats

Some stats and approx LF’s for certain routes.

QR - 18,692 or 94% Increased to 10 x weekly early Feb. The increased capacity appears to have been fully justified.
TK - 7,702 or 80%
UA - 7,102 or 78%
DL - 5,039 or 76%

Some European route stats with noticeable % increases compared to Feb 22. Large increases, even taking into account the Scot Gov restrictions that were still in place.

Bucharest - 7,090 +184%. Served by FR and Wizz. Approx LF - 96%
Riga (Latvia) - 6094 + 215%. FR. Approx LF - 95%
Copenhagen - 10,296 + 56%. EZY and Norwegian. Approx LF - 92%
Oslo - 6,801 + 125%. Norwegian. Approx LF - 95%
Keflavik - 4836 + 127%. EZY - 94% Worth noting FI route from GLA transported less than 500 more with 4 x weekly service on a larger 752.
Helsinki - 2082 + 125%. Finnair. Approx LF - 93%

[4eyed anorak]

Feb 2023 Stats

Some stats and approx LF’s for certain routes.

QR - 18,692 or 94% Increased to 10 x weekly early Feb. The increased capacity appears to have been fully justified.
TK - 7,702 or 80%
UA - 7,102 or 78%
DL - 5,039 or 76%

Some European route stats with noticeable % increases compared to Feb 22. Large increases, even taking into account the Scot Gov restrictions that were still in place.

Bucharest - 7,090 +184%. Served by FR and Wizz. Approx LF - 96%
Riga (Latvia) - 6094 + 215%. FR. Approx LF - 95%
Copenhagen - 10,296 + 56%. EZY and Norwegian. Approx LF - 92%
Oslo - 6,801 + 125%. Norwegian. Approx LF - 95%
Keflavik - 4836 + 127%. EZY - 94% Worth noting FI route from GLA transported less than 500 more with 4 x weekly service on a larger 752.
Helsinki - 2082 + 125%. Finnair. Approx LF - 93%

It's also interesting to note that Edinburgh handled more passengers to Keflavik in January than Glasgow.

Regards 4ea

[inOban]

Ryanair also fly to Copenhagen. Seems like overprovision. Is anyone making money?

[Planeraz]

DL W23

Delta suspending EDI-JFK from 8/1 to 9/3 2024. Very disappointing news.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230420-dleu

[ld0595]

DL W23

Delta suspending EDI-JFK from 8/1 to 9/3 2024. Very disappointing news.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230420-dleu

That's a shame. Lack of aircraft/crew or just demand? Seems like a fair amount of cuts there.

[Planeraz]

That's a shame. Lack of aircraft/crew or just demand? Seems like a fair amount of cuts there.


As your rightly mention, lots of cuts, not just EDI. Looking at approx LF’s for Jan and Feb 2023, they both come in at around 76%. Not awful but not spectacular either. It’s certainly a blow for EDI and a likely win win for UA and the Newark route.

[CabinCrewe]

As your rightly mention, lots of cuts, not just EDI. Looking at approx LF’s for Jan and Feb 2023, they both come in at around 76%. Not awful but not spectacular either. It’s certainly a blow for EDI and a likely win win for UA and the Newark route.
Maybe just a reflection of the wrong aircraft for off season. An A321LR /XLR when available would be better fit. If average 76, there must be days when way lower.

[tartan 201]

Maybe just a reflection of the wrong aircraft for off season. An A321LR /XLR when available would be better fit. If average 76, there must be days when way lower.

And there'll have been days when it was higher. Anyway, pre-covid this route always was always suspended between early January and early March, so its operation during that period of 2023 should be seen as an aberration rather than the norm. The tweet linked to above notes that JFK to Berlin, Copenhagen, Geneva and Stockholm Arlanda have all been ditched entirely for the winter season and several other DL transatlantic services have been suspended for the same period as their EDI-JFK service suspension. Given all that, it's good news that they currently plan to operate the route in the upcoming winter season with their 763, which means more capacity than when they operated it with their 757 in their last pre-covid winter season.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Indicative of how reliable they still are on seasonal tourism. Aer Lingus and the US carriers used to almost close their DUB/SNN ops in the same period. Look at the contrast now with just how much US long haul DUB sees even in February!
Ireland sees a business benefit in the front cabins Scotland isn't coming close to.

[Planeraz]

Indicative of how reliable they still are on seasonal tourism. Aer Lingus and the US carriers used to almost close their DUB/SNN ops in the same period. Look at the contrast now with just how much US long haul DUB sees even in February!
Ireland sees a business benefit in the front cabins Scotland isn't coming close to.

Currently, it is hard to disagree with your assessment. Sadly, for EDI and Scotland more generally, this situation is unlikely to change with a very hostile anti aviation SNP/Green coalition in power. They love a photo op at a route launch to give the impression they support the sector, but they won’t go the extra mile to really promote flights to/from EDI or GLA. With the appropriate support, I can’t see why EDI in particular couldn’t be as successful as Ireland’s number one airport. DL’s decision today will also surely have a negative impact on the application for US Pre-clearance.

[ATNotts]

Maybe just a reflection of the wrong aircraft for off season. An A321LR /XLR when available would be better fit. If average 76, there must be days when way lower.
I would suggest the first indication of over capacity on TA routes from Edinburgh. Too much growth too quickly? Hope I am wrong because the UK shouldn't be London, London and London.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Maybe just a reflection of the wrong aircraft for off season. An A321LR /XLR when available would be better fit. If average 76, there must be days when way lower.

i have flown the route outbound to the US twice this year already and it’s been pretty busy both times in the slow season. Disappointed about the cut or pause, similar to Air Canada.
Guess I will have to fly United next year at the same time.

[nivsy]

Pah..it's time all transatlantic and middle east flights operated from PIK not EDI and certainly not that awful airport nowadays called Glasgow.......plenty of growth opportunities down the coast...what come around.goes around .....🤭..ahhh wait a minute.....nope...I'll just get my coat! Poor PIK. 🫣

[Flightrider]

Some of the comments here are beyond parody.

If it was being cut for the entire winter, then I can just about see why you might get close to the “disappointing”, “crushing blow” type of comments.

It is being suspended for two months - the two months of the year which are the absolute pits for travel demand and when you probably lose enough money in eight weeks to wipe out much of what you’ve made in the other 44. It looks to me like sensible economic move by a sensible airline.

I am sure that they and many other carriers would have more seasonal cuts at LHR if they could do so without jeopardising their slots - which isn’t a factor at EDI.

And yes, this year’s transatlantic boom at EDI will be fuelled by incoming tourism on the basis of the exchange rates.

Make good money when it is there to be made, and don’t lose money for the rest of the time. Very sensible.

[laviation]

I would suggest the first indication of over capacity on TA routes from Edinburgh. Too much growth too quickly? Hope I am wrong because the UK shouldn't be London, London and London.

The UK shouldn’t be London, Edinburgh, London either. Imho it is a financially better choice in the long run for Delta to go back to MAN and join their Virgin partners… MAN has the very strong outbound market that won’t go away any time soon (that supported insane amounts of US growth on TCX 2013-2019) while EDI largely relies on US Tourists.

[tictack67]

The UK shouldn’t be London, Edinburgh, London either. Imho it is a financially better choice in the long run for Delta to go back to MAN and join their Virgin partners… MAN has the very strong outbound market that won’t go away any time soon (that supported insane amounts of US growth on TCX 2013-2019) while EDI largely relies on US Tourists.

That's doesn't reflect in the low number of routes from Manchester to US and Canada this summer

Served from Manchester
Orlando
New York JFKAtalanta
Houston
Toronto.

​​​​​​
​​​​​​Served from Edinburgh
New York JFK & EWRAtlanta
Boston
Chicago
Washington
Orlando (School Holiday)
Toronto
Calgary​​​​​
​​​​​

[laviation]

That's doesn't reflect in the low number of routes from Manchester to US and Canada this summer

Served from Manchester
OrlandoNew York JFK Atalanta
Houston
Toronto.

​​​​​​
​​​​​​Served from EdinburghNew York JFK & EWRAtlantaBostonChicagoWashingtonOrlando (School Holiday)
TorontoCalgary
​​​​​
​​​​​
Yes, at a time of the pound's historic low and the obvious increase in inbound tourism. The Pound will recover. Edinburgh will imho thus shed some of these routes. Manchester will regain Boston, EWR, possibly Chicago, Philadelphia by W2024 anyways so that leaves just Washington and Calgary from your list? EDI lacks the huge population & thus outbound demand of the North West area. Manchester in Summer 17 had directs to PHL, ORD, JFK, YVR, YYZ, LAS, MCO, LAX, SFO, SEA, ATL among others.. That demand has not gone away.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Yes, at a time of the pound's historic low and the obvious increase in inbound tourism. The Pound will recover. Edinburgh will imho thus shed some of these routes. Manchester will regain Boston, EWR, possibly Chicago, Philadelphia by W2024 anyways so that leaves just Washington and Calgary from your list? EDI lacks the huge population & thus outbound demand of the North West area. Manchester in Summer 17 had directs to PHL, ORD, JFK, YVR, YYZ, LAS, MCO, LAX, SFO, SEA, ATL among others.. That demand has not gone away.
Let's not do the "my airport deserves long haul more than yours does".....but having said that, there's no announcement or anything on sale out of MAN from AA/DL/UA on their own metal. When you say BOS/EWR/ORD/PHL are due back by winter 2024, well there's nothing beyond aspirational fluff from marketing types and PR execs to back that up just yet. Demand for new aircraft will be fought over internally and I think MAN will see some US legacies back, but to say what you said is wrong. The demand is still there as you say, but the outbound demand to the US is unbalanced, MAN is not a "must see tourist destination" in the same mould as Scotland/Ireland is for visiting US tourists. Sure there's loads of outbound UK POS, but Delta consciously gave that to Virgin to cut costs and American screwed themselves from 4 routes down to none, which I suspect was someone's plan for a BA codeshare all along. I reckon MAN-EWR will come back soon, but we don't need to attack each other simply because one team is remarkably doing well. Sometimes momentum matters a lot, just don't let it cannibalise existing success and eat itself.
I well remember MAN's (Gil Thomson's?) comment that Scotland didn't even need it's own transatlantic flights as that was what MAN was there for.....

[NotanAVGeek]

The diverted United 767 is still sitting over at cargo. That’s been well over a week now.

It’s been scheduled out the last couple of days and still hasn’t left.

[laviation]

Let's not do the "my airport deserves long haul more than yours does".....but having said that, there's no announcement or anything on sale out of MAN from AA/DL/UA on their own metal. When you say BOS/EWR/ORD/PHL are due back by winter 2024, well there's nothing beyond aspirational fluff from marketing types and PR execs to back that up just yet. Demand for new aircraft will be fought over internally and I think MAN will see some US legacies back, but to say what you said is wrong. The demand is still there as you say, but the outbound demand to the US is unbalanced, MAN is not a "must see tourist destination" in the same mould as Scotland/Ireland is for visiting US tourists. Sure there's loads of outbound UK POS, but Delta consciously gave that to Virgin to cut costs and American screwed themselves from 4 routes down to none, which I suspect was someone's plan for a BA codeshare all along. I reckon MAN-EWR will come back soon, but we don't need to attack each other simply because one team is remarkably doing well. Sometimes momentum matters a lot, just don't let it cannibalise existing success and eat itself.
I well remember MAN's (Gil Thomson's?) comment that Scotland didn't even need it's own transatlantic flights as that was what MAN was there for.....
I didn’t mean to come off as rude! What I meant to say was that Edinburgh is currently vastly overperforming even what they had pre-Covid. Manchester is vastly underperforming pre-covid US levels. One hopes EDI can hold on to these routes for the foreseeable but that doesn’t seem likely imo.. The routes I listed to gain back for W24 would be Aer Lingus (AA Codeshare) who have plans for large expansion anyway and United who seem a given. To be honest I think it would be better for EDI come the time Virgin have a spare A330 or two for VS to take on the Delta routes. This would largely guarantee some more ‘obscure’ ones like Atlanta to stay..

[Asturias56]

Atlanta is the pride and joy of Delta's US operation - they're not going to risk 'mericans not flying with them because some of the route is operated by "an obscure European airline"

[Vokes55]

I didn’t mean to come off as rude! What I meant to say was that Edinburgh is currently vastly overperforming even what they had pre-Covid. Manchester is vastly underperforming pre-covid US levels. One hopes EDI can hold on to these routes for the foreseeable but that doesn’t seem likely imo.. The routes I listed to gain back for W24 would be Aer Lingus (AA Codeshare) who have plans for large expansion anyway and United who seem a given. To be honest I think it would be better for EDI come the time Virgin have a spare A330 or two for VS to take on the Delta routes. This would largely guarantee some more ‘obscure’ ones like Atlanta to stay..

I think the fact you think Atlanta, the world’s busiest hub, is “obscure” demonstrates that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

And the fact that it’s the route VS cut back at the first sign of a pilot shortage shows just how unimportant MAN is to the US majors.

The airline that operated the majority of the routes you listed went bust. Maybe there wasn’t demand after all. US majors serve routes to make money, not please spotters.

[CabinCrewe]

Atlanta is the pride and joy of Delta's US operation
But just not been a hit specifically on the two previous attempts to make ATL-EDI work. Lets hope third time lucky.

[tartan 201]

But just not been a hit specifically on the two previous attempts to make ATL-EDI work. Lets hope third time lucky.

I'm pretty sure they've operated the route only once, in the mid-2000s. They then swapped it for JFK, then ditched that then restarted it (link below refers to the restart of JFK after seven years, having swapped it for ATL). And their luck seems to be holding so far given that they increased the frequency of the route from the initially-planned five-weekly service to daily before it's even started.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/delta-announces-edinburgh-new-york-flights-1496882

[laviation]

I think the fact you think Atlanta, the world’s busiest hub, is “obscure” demonstrates that you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

And the fact that it’s the route VS cut back at the first sign of a pilot shortage shows just how unimportant MAN is to the US majors.

The airline that operated the majority of the routes you listed went bust. Maybe there wasn’t demand after all. US majors serve routes to make money, not please spotters.
Atlanta is an obscure route from a regional airport such as EDI or MAN.. Resorting to insults shows you are probably the one who doesn’t know what they are talking about.. I am absolutely sure both airports can support a route. All I suggested was Delta hand over their operation to Virgin who would likely be the better option now they are in Sky Team!

[GrahamK]

Atlanta is an obscure route from a regional airport such as EDI or MAN.. Resorting to insults shows you are probably the one who doesn’t know what they are talking about.. I am absolutely sure both airports can support a route. All I suggested was Delta hand over their operation to Virgin who would likely be the better option now they are in Sky Team!
Why hand it over to Virgin? 1) VS don't have a base at EDI. 2) Doesnt the DL pilots contracts have a clause in which other airlines can only operate a small percentage of JV flights?

Also, if your wondering about EDI v MAN, there must be a reason why AC are keeping a 787 on EDI, and MAN is getting a leased 767 for a month or so...

[laviation]

Why hand it over to Virgin? 1) VS don't have a base at EDI. 2) Doesnt the DL pilots contracts have a clause in which other airlines can only operate a small percentage of JV flights?

Also, if your wondering about EDI v MAN, there must be a reason why AC are keeping a 787 on EDI, and MAN is getting a leased 767 for a month or so...
There was no insinuation of an “EDI v MAN”….
Virgin do send up a Manchester based A350 to operate Orlando. MAN-JFK seems to be getting put onto A350 so assumedly that frees up the A330 operating it? Correct me if I am wrong!

[Sk1schoolsam]

Maybe just a reflection of the wrong aircraft for off season. An A321LR /XLR when available would be better fit. If average 76, there must be days when way lower.

I have been on this route this year in late Jan and the 763 nearly full, did an earlier post not indicated healthy load factors in Jan?
maybe slimmer in Feb / March when a 321LR might fit but I fly the route again Monday and again nearly full. The demand is there in April.

Separately I thought I had read DL had increased JFK to 7weekly in NW23. Must have been mistaken.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Atlanta is an obscure route from a regional airport such as EDI or MAN.. Resorting to insults shows you are probably the one who doesn’t know what they are talking about.. I am absolutely sure both airports can support a route. All I suggested was Delta hand over their operation to Virgin who would likely be the better option now they are in Sky Team!
Basic errors here. Atlanta is the main connecting hub BUT since much of Scotland-US was East Coast bound, JFK was a more sensible entry point to stop people doubling back. As EDI-JFK has grown, I would imagine ATL is coming on line to free up JFK for more point to point and filter connections over the ATL hub. It's not obscure anymore than DTW, it's a Delta superhub. Your rationale for wanting a larger Virgin A330 rather than a Delta 'frame makes some sense as the JV is "metal neutral" BUT there is a labour agreement with ALPA to keep Delta in the UK market on their own.
As for having flown a busy flight in deepest winter, remember loads don't reflect yields and that aircraft can well make more money elsewhere.

[Planeraz]

I have been on this route this year in late Jan and the 763 nearly full, did an earlier post not indicated healthy load factors in Jan?
maybe slimmer in Feb / March when a 321LR might fit but I fly the route again Monday and again nearly full. The demand is there in April.

Separately I thought I had read DL had increased JFK to 7weekly in NW23. Must have been mistaken.

You are correct. DL did intend increasing to daily in W23. Flights were on sale. Something has changed, be it drop in demand or logistical issues.

[tictack67]

Amazing that people are absolutely losing their **** because Edinburgh has half a dozen US routes, almost willing the failure of some new routes.

Gobsmacking.

As for Atlanta
-93 million passengers a year
-5 parallel runways
- the world's busiest airport since 1998 (except one year 2020 covid).

Why shouldn't Scotland have a connection to this.

​​​ATL gives connections to Las Vegas, New Orleans, San Fransisco, LAX, as well as Georgia, Mex and Florida.

The route isn't for the regional market of Edinburgh, people travel from all over Scotland and North England to use these services.

Much the same as GLA-DXB isn't just used by the Glasgow populus but likely people from all over Scotland .

Manchester Airport not having new destinations is Manchester Airports fault, complain to them

[Budfrey27]

Ticktack67.....you earned my respect today......well said 👌

[Sk1schoolsam]

Ticktack67.....you earned my respect today......well said 👌

100% agree

[Sk1schoolsam]

You are correct. DL did intend increasing to daily in W23. Flights were on sale. Something has changed, be it drop in demand or logistical issues.

On my way to SFO via JFK with Delta today. Another really quick and smooth check in (no que it’s took literally a few mins) and boarding experience with Delta from EDI to JFK.
airport was busy but all lanes open at security so actually very efficient.
Lively, friendly crew, so far, once again a great start to the journey with Delta.
Hope United are just as good in June to ORD.
Yes I expect and hour at immigration in JFK but applying for Global Entry to minimise that in the future. I feel avoiding LHR is a win right now.

I really hope all 3 routes from EDI with Delta can be a success and that the W23 JFK reduction in early 24 is reversed.

[Planeraz]

American Airlines converting most of their seasonal European routes to year round. What a pity the PHL route was dropped. What possibly could have been for EDI.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230425-aanw23

[laviation]

American Airlines converting most of their seasonal European routes to year round. What a pity the PHL route was dropped. What possibly could have been for EDI.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230425-aanw23
Philadelphia Airport are currently trying to push American to relaunch most of the lost COVID routes, including Edinburgh and Manchester, in Summer 2024

If it isn’t 24 due to aircraft delivery delays it will certainly be 2025 when the A321s start coming online

The suicidal pre-emptive retirement of the 757s and A330s really screwed up their transatlantic network. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Edinburgh was scheduled to restart in 2021 alongside destinations such as Prague, Keflavik, Manchester although these aforementioned retirements jeopardised this plan

Source (https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2023/03/29/ceo-atif-saeed-phl-airport-preparation-for-2026.html)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

If it isn’t 24 due to aircraft delivery delays it will certainly be 2025 when the A321s start coming online
Please stop being certain about wishful thinking.
On the examples you gave, some are Oneworld hub to Oneworld hub :
CLT-DUB/MAD and DFW-DUB so not comparable.
American used to have a massive European network, the biggest of the US airlines and they dismantled it on their own to funnel traffic across LHR when they got the metal neutral JV. United and Delta need to serve EDI on their own, AA can easily serve the market via BA with one stop to DFW/ORD/JFK/PHL/CLT/ SEA/LAX/BOS.
Would I like to see AA at EDI? Yes. Do they need to serve EDI on their own metal to hold market share? They had reasons of their own for running down MAN from 4 x daily ORD/JFK/PHL/CLT to nothing and then not hanging onto EDI-PHL.

Any return of American is likely the point that someone else downsizes, net new can't go on forever, bubbles tend to pop.

[Vokes55]

The suicidal pre-emptive retirement of the 757s and A330s really screwed up their transatlantic network.

Suicidal? Listen to yourself!

If Manchester was so important, I’m sure American would’ve allocated one of the 26 aircraft they currently use to LHR every day to it. But it’s not. Never has been, never will be. To any US carrier.

[laviation]

Suicidal? Listen to yourself!

If Manchester was so important, I’m sure American would’ve allocated one of the 26 aircraft they currently use to LHR every day to it. But it’s not. Never has been, never will be. To any US carrier.
I was talking about Edinburgh! Manchester was another one that was dropped due to these retirements, as well as other destinations I listed….
You are taking my words out of context to throw **** at Manchester. It’s unlikely in itself that either will be relaunched by AA opinion, all I was talking about is PHL airport wanting AA to resurrect these routes

[Breathe]

Plans submitted for extension & reconfiguration of the security hall.

https://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/idoxpa-web/scottishBuildingWarrantDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=RRWX1WEWHY700

23/00803/WARR | Extend existing Security Hall by removing existing Management Offices , and Welfare provision and building new Management Offices & Welfare in other locations. Addition of new Security Stores & Showers in previously vacant soace. | Main Terminal 1 Edinburgh Airport Jubilee Road Edinburgh EH12 9DN

[ld0595]

Plans submitted for extension & reconfiguration of the security hall.

https://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/idoxpa-web/scottishBuildingWarrantDetails.do?activeTab=summary&keyVal=RRWX1WEWHY700

Good find. Not before time as well, it gets pretty rammed in my experience. The current setup isn't even that old is it?

[Planeraz]

A source at the airport informed me they believe the application to extend isn’t actually for more security lanes. The additional space will be used for an expanded queuing area. This would reduce the number of pax lining up outside the security hall and on occasion stretching back down stairs into the check-in area.

[A350Saltire]

I believe there is also £77million earmarked for terminal expansion over the coming years up to 2030 as well as alot of other investment for other parts of the airport.

[ld0595]

Hopefully a much needed expansion of the check-in area! And some sprucing up of the cattle shed that houses passport control.

[NotanAVGeek]

Expansion is desperately needed, a flight on Stand 11/14 is often delayed for flights trying to disembark into IA2 or incoming coaches offloading passengers into IA2. Really poor infrastructure and doesn’t really enhance the passenger experience or perception of the place when you are caught up in it.

[4eyed anorak]

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230427-acedi

Air Canada have increased their capacity to Toronto during the summer.
Every little helps.

Regards 4ea

[VickersVicount]

yes been in booking engine for a couple of months now. A flood of seats up against WestJet. Be interesting to see who does best and if maintained for next year. AC should do ok with alliance connections. WestJet im not as sure.

[YVRscot]

[QUOTE=VickersVicount;11426705]yes been in booking engine for a couple of months now. A flood of seats up against WestJet. Be interesting to see who does best and if maintained for next year. AC should do ok with alliance connections. WestJet im not as sure.[/QUOTE
I think AC and WJ are serving quite different geo markets. AC to Toronto and points east (but difficult connections at YYZ.) WJ to Calgary and all points West with quite easy connections. Even if flying to the same destination I'd choose WJ over AC any day.

[Planeraz]

VS

Latest OAG indicating Virgin EDI-MCO route in 2024 will start 3rd April. Much earlier than this years June re-start. A351 is the operating aircraft. A long way off and with Virgin being unpredictable, let’s hope it happens. Presumably, Virgin will look to capture the Easter get-away crowd.

[VickersVicount]

Virgin will look to capture the Easter get-away crowd.
Was very curious why they didn’t do that in the first place. At one point there were 3x 747 flights ex GLA. Lets see how the MAN W-pattern A350 holds up over this summer…

[inOban]

Didn't I notice an Orlando flight today?

[Planeraz]

Didn't I notice an Orlando flight today?

Not aware of any Orlando dep, unless it was private?

Delta 763 - from JFK came in very late today. EDI-JFK was cancelled.

[Planeraz]

Air Transat is increasing GLA to YYZ from 2 to 3 weekly. A belated reaction to Air Canada going almost year round at EDI? Plenty seats to/from Toronto in W23. I wonder if pax will see the benefit with lower fares? Expect to see some additional marketing from AC in the weeks ahead.

[ld0595]

IAD and ORD start tonight. Both the inbound and outbound flights are looking fairly full based on United's seat map which is good to see.

[VickersVicount]

IAD and ORD start tonight. Both the inbound and outbound flights are looking fairly full based on United's seat map which is good to see.
is IAD a 764 again this year or just the trusty 757?

[Planeraz]

is IAD a 764 again this year or just the trusty 757?


764 operating on certain dates - early summer. 752 during peak season. All subject to change I should imagine. UA ended up using 764 for majority of season last year.

[tartan 201]

"Edinburgh airport wants to offer US immigration clearance within two years"

The article states that "Edinburgh intends to use facial recognition technology to allow passengers to continue to access the whole terminal once they have completed the US checks", which would mean that only a modest additional area would be required sufficient to allow the checks.

https://archive.is/Cq4b3

[Planeraz]

"Edinburgh airport wants to offer US immigration clearance within two years"

The article states that "Edinburgh intends to use facial recognition technology to allow passengers to continue to access the whole terminal once they have completed the US checks", which would mean that only a modest additional area would be required sufficient to allow the checks.

https://archive.is/Cq4b3

Very encouraging news. Let’s hope it happens. I wonder which new routes the CEO suggested could be possible?

[VickersVicount]

Good old GD… two years?! I doubt it. Would still be keen to know the funding arrangements for this. The difference between Irish US pax throughput at DUB and current EDI numbers is massive making it even harder to understand. If no large space and logistics now needed with a bit of facial recognition, LHR will be all over it.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

EDI winter ops would be about 2x daily, more than Shannon which has 2 x A321s in some winter months, only the one. No idea how passengers accessing the main terminal in EDI after US CBP processing works from a Customs standpoint....?

[tartan 201]

No idea how passengers accessing the main terminal in EDI after US CBP processing works from a Customs standpoint....?

Nor from a security one as you'd be mixing passengers screened to two different standards (US and UK).

[Planeraz]

EDI winter ops would be about 2x daily, more than Shannon which has 2 x A321s in some winter months, only the one. No idea how passengers accessing the main terminal in EDI after US CBP processing works from a Customs standpoint....?

Presumably, EDI will hope to persuade DL and UA to go year round in some form with the ORD,IAD or ATL routes? I’m led to believe the soon to re-start ATL route with DL is set to perform very strongly.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Scotland-US remains massively seasonal based on summer tourism, and there's nothing wrong with that. We don't have the front cabin business traffic that can keep multiple routes year round, so one UA and one DL is a good result IMHO.

[Asturias56]

Nor from a security one as you'd be mixing passengers screened to two different standards (US and UK).

yes and you'd have to try and convince the US that it was great idea - no hope TBH

[A350Saltire]

Glad GD is a bit more positive. And great to see the 764 back at the weekends. Sure some people on here said that wouldn’t happen.

[Planeraz]

yes and you'd have to try and convince the US that it was great idea - no hope TBH

The US and the UK already have part of the face recognition process in place. LHR to JFK - three weeks ago. Face recognition at gate at LHR. Breezed through US border control and customs. No questions asked or finger prints taken. Passport stamped and through in 5 mins. Hundreds of others (non-UK or US) standing in lines waiting to be processed. I then travelled from ORD to LHR on Saturday. Face recognition at gate in Chicago. US pax can also use the e-gates at LHR. They don’t have to stand in a line, speak with a border control officer or wait to have passport stamped. I expect EDI will get pre-clearance.

[Una Due Tfc]

The facial recognition is in place in DUB CBP and you still are segregated after clearing in a dedicated part of the terminal. I have my doubts about the US allowing mixture of pax after clearing. I hope it happens though, would make things better in DUB.

[nighthawk117]

Nor from a security one as you'd be mixing passengers screened to two different standards (US and UK).
I dont see how this is an issue - you dont clear security when you arrive in the US - you clear customs. Passengers travelling UK-US already mix, and it isnt a security issue now.

It could however be a customs issue - after passing through immigration and customs, passengers who have gone through usual security as a domestic passenger could easily pass on items that are banned in the US, surely?

Not a security issue, but a possible customs issue.

I assume there is nowhere in the terminal that sells haggis or kinder eggs - two highly dangerous materials that are banned in the US.

[nighthawk117]

The article makes interesting reading:

"“We are way beyond that so the opportunity is even more attractive. We think it probably opens up three or four new American destinations pretty quickly and thickens up the ones we have already got.”

“We could hoover up people from around northwest Europe to come here and fly,” he said. “Even if you are coming from Hamburg or Amsterdam it is quite an attractive proposition."

Dewar believes offering pre-clearance will attract connections from elsewhere in europe, and boost the number of flights by an additional 3-4. This should help fill the aircraft in the winter months.

[Planeraz]

The article makes interesting reading:

"“We are way beyond that so the opportunity is even more attractive. We think it probably opens up three or four new American destinations pretty quickly and thickens up the ones we have already got.”

“We could hoover up people from around northwest Europe to come here and fly,” he said. “Even if you are coming from Hamburg or Amsterdam it is quite an attractive proposition."

Dewar believes offering pre-clearance will attract connections from elsewhere in europe, and boost the number of flights by an additional 3-4. This should help fill the aircraft in the winter months.

EDI clearly see this as a viable project. The project will have been costed and all the logistics considered. The final decision, obviously, lies with the US Gov. Where could the new 3/4 American destinations be?

[nighthawk117]

I'm assuming PHL returning is being counted as a new destination. Perhaps MIA and LAX as new destinations.

IAH and DEN could also be a shout, but given they are United hubs, I think they might consider 4 flights a day is enough already, but who knows.

[tartan 201]

I dont see how this is an issue - you dont clear security when you arrive in the US - you clear customs. Passengers travelling UK-US already mix, and it isnt a security issue now.
​​​​​
​​At the DUB facility, US-bound passengers clear a TSA security check before they go through the US immigration check. Passengers having cleared both are kept separate from those who have cleared just the security for non-US passengers.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

“We could hoover up people from around northwest Europe to come here and fly,” he said. “Even if you are coming from Hamburg or Amsterdam it is quite an attractive proposition." Dewar believes offering pre-clearance will attract connections from elsewhere in europe, and boost the number of flights by an additional 3-4. This should help fill the aircraft in the winter months.
Amazing that they also have TSA based overseas......

* C O U L D * is doing hell of a lot of lifting here.
Set aside for a moment the madness of self connecting types on unprotected tickets, EDI is not a hub for anyone. Unless UNITED decide they're going to choose to feed EDI instead of FRA from the continent I don't see the realistic impact. Tangible feed usually needs an anchor tenant with a based fleet, that's MAN's pain point. DUB of course has huge US tech links as well as AA/BA feeding a based Oneworld partner in Aer Lingus. However UA and DL are pretty much standalone operations as Skyteam will push AMS and STAR will push FRA for connections to support alliance members. It's a great idea on the face of it but it would really need strategic buy in from existing operators to change their existing plans to funnel traffic. SNN by comparison doesn't have feed for Aer Lingus as they chose a DUB focus, but no one else really chooses to feed the SNN based A321s?
Is a self connecting value conscious traveller flying in on Norwegian in Feb in Scotland say, enough of a benefit to get the business case over the line for EDI?
Or might BA finally base a couple of A321NXs and open a base?
Sorry about that last part, I lost my mind completely there....

[Plane mad 134]

Turkish Airlines appear to be increasing IST to 9x weekly this winter on A321/A321N.

​

[Planeraz]

Turkish Airlines appear to be increasing IST to 9x weekly this winter on A321/A321N.

​

Bookable now. Double service on Saturday and Sunday.

[tartan 201]

Hainan back to Beijing - seems to be direct this time, with no DUB add-on.
​​​​https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1656493306338070528?t=UocRFjeYY5YCLkJASeyrKg&s=19

[ld0595]

Great news. Wasn't expecting that.

[Planeraz]

Hainan back to Beijing - seems to be direct this time, with no DUB add-on.
​​​​https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1656493306338070528?t=UocRFjeYY5YCLkJASeyrKg&s=19


Good news indeed. A333 is the operating aircraft. Available now on Hainan website.

[GrahamK]

Well thats a route I wasn't expecting to see back given its poorish loadings before covid. Good news however, it seems to be a standalone flight this time.

[Planeraz]

Going to be a very busy airport, peak season - long haul on a Friday. Based on current aircraft listing.

7 x wide-body arrivals and departures
4 x 752 arrivals and departures.

Add all UK, Turkey, Greece, other European and bucket & spade routes. They’ll be queuing up like never before for a seat at Wetherspoons etc….

[NotanAVGeek]

Excellent news for the Airport. Wasn’t expecting this. It is going to be super busy though come peak summer months.

[Plane mad 134]

Fantastic news, the airport is going from strength to strength.

[NorthSouth]

Hainan back to Beijing - seems to be direct this time, with no DUB add-on.
​​​​https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1656493306338070528?t=UocRFjeYY5YCLkJASeyrKg&s=19
5.5 hour turnround time????

Pleased to hear it's an A333 - BBC and others showing B737 which wouldn't get them very far.

[Planeraz]

5.5 hour turnround time????

Pleased to hear it's an A333 - BBC and others showing B737 which wouldn't get them very far.

I’m pretty sure it will be towed to a remote stand after disembarking and security checks etc. Stands with air bridges will be at a premium peak summer.

[VickersVicount]

Nice plane to see again, I quite the livery. The interior though… yikes.
The loads even on a double drop with DUB were dire pre covid.. what will change this time?
Not a carrier for service /product Id select for 10hr trek I dont think.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Hainan starts in 46 days. Who books a long haul holiday to the other side of the world in that timeframe? It ends in 4 months time, before a single booking has been made. Something political here surely?

[SWBKCB]

Hainan starts in 46 days. Who books a long haul holiday to the other side of the world in that timeframe? It ends in 4 months time, before a single booking has been made. Something political here surely?

Are they aimed at the outbound market?

[Planeraz]

Hainan starts in 46 days. Who books a long haul holiday to the other side of the world in that timeframe? It ends in 4 months time, before a single booking has been made. Something political here surely?

It has been widely reported that tens of millions of Chinese are desperate to travel internationally again. Not just for tourism. Student and family reunions. All the Chinese carriers in past few weeks have been ramping up route frequencies and re-starting others. A direct service will also surely perform better? We also don’t know for sure how long the tour operators in China have known about the resumption. Credit to EDI management for securing this.

[Blakedean]

I wonder will the eastbound pax get a fresh blanket this time? Worked on the Hainan at DUB & the cleaners just folded the used blanket for the next person, manky!

[Grant Davidson]

Are they aimed at the outbound market?
Maybe a rush of Chinese leaving the UK...

[QEC]

Hainan starts in 46 days. Who books a long haul holiday to the other side of the world in that timeframe? It ends in 4 months time, before a single booking has been made. Something political here surely?

"Political" - As in?

[tictack67]

The loads even on a double drop with DUB were dire pre covid..

Actually the CAA report 51% increase in passenger numbers from Edinburgh to Beijing in 2019 compared to 2018.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

"Political" - As in?
Someone's subsidising it, turns out it's being bankrolled at the Chineses end to allow middle classes with the desired credit score to be allowed to go on holiday. Think of it as a whole plane charter you can still buy seats on.
Actually the CAA report 51% increase in passenger numbers from Edinburgh to Beijing in 2019 compared to 2018.
It's not really operating on a classic "commercial" basis but nice to see it back.

[SWBKCB]

Actually the CAA report 51% increase in passenger numbers from Edinburgh to Beijing in 2019 compared to 2018.

Any actual numbers? A 51% increase might just move you from very dire to dire!

[CabinCrewe]

LOL!
Suspect the historical complex triangle split load routing with DUB makes the extent of ‘dire’ loads might be tricky to tease out.
Seems its essentially a tour operator supported service over a shortish season rather than anything more substantial. Would be interested to hear in due course who would choose to use the service as a scheduled outbound ex EDI. Maybe with dirt cheap give-ways and an empty cabin might be right up frugal backpackers street! Presume therefore minimal impact on the two often cheapest eastbound services with QR and TK.

[inOban]

But much quicker

[Planeraz]

Some incredibly negative and dismissive comments about the Hainan Edinburgh-Beijing route resumption. Let’s just see how the route performs. Surely the marketing team at EDI deserve credit for securing this and other new routes. In the bigger picture, the airport is recovering really strongly after the pandemic and having to battle against a really hostile anti aviation SNP/Green coalition Gov. Lots to be positive about in my opinion.

[SWBKCB]

having to battle against a really hostile anti aviation SNP/Green coalition Gov

What gov actions are impacting the airport?

[tictack67]

Any actual numbers? A 51% increase might just move you from very dire to dire!

Shouldn't you be challenging the Original poster who made claims of dire loads.as to their source or info?

​​​​​​

[SWBKCB]

Both statements are meaningless without context.

[tictack67]

LOL!
Suspect the historical complex triangle split load routing with DUB makes the extent of ‘dire’ loads might be tricky to tease out.
Seems its essentially a tour operator supported service over a shortish season rather than anything more substantial. Would be interested to hear in due course who would choose to use the service as a scheduled outbound ex EDI. Maybe with dirt cheap give-ways and an empty cabin might be right up frugal backpackers street! Presume therefore minimal impact on the two often cheapest eastbound services with QR and TK.

Going to ask for clarification.

You seem very upset that an Iata/Iaco airline is offering a schedule service with a fare structure bookable by anyone. There's no deep state conspiracy about it (let us know when you find those "dirt cheap giveaways" 🤣

Many routes only operate for some seasons like Majorca or Ski routes.

This should be making Glasgow Airport management very uncomfortable, and they should be explaining why they can't get more routes, perhaps the exclusivity deal they signed with EK has tied them down sadly.

For clarity what would you define as "substantial" if a 5 month, twice weekly service to the Orient, on the longest flight from Edinburgh isn't?

By the way Dublin now has a similar two weekly direct service so they've don't away with the "complex" (?) triangle.

[tictack67]

Both statements are meaningless without context.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x386/screenshot_20230513_071554_ad0bc84f3221103e2a4cf623159720061 4e0a0ed.png

From CAA
Table 12.1
International Air Passenger Traffic
To and From Reporting Airports for 2019
Comparison with

[Planeraz]

What gov actions are impacting the airport?

Two examples for you. Sturgeon refused to engage with the airport/sector about a safe return to travel. Had she got her way, all travel would have been banned and the border shut during the pandemic. The airport/sector would not have recovered. Purely political game playing, to be doing something different from the UK Gov. Current hostility - the anti aviation Greens advocating and demanding many short haul flights are banned.

[Planeraz]

UA S23

United updating aircraft type on EDI-IAD route. Previously announced 764 on certain dates in May/June also now showing into July. 764 operating Saturday and Sunday from EDI for all of July. 752 currently showing for August onwards.

[tartan 201]

Nor from a security one as you'd be mixing passengers screened to two different standards (US and UK).

I note that, according to the post linked to below, there's now a trial underway at DUB where some US-bound passengers are screened only once (at the main security screening point separating landside from airside) rather than the previous situation where US-bound passengers were screened there and again at the USPC facility (connecting passengers still need to be screened at the latter).

Assuming the post to be accurate, presumably this means that the screening at DUB is done to a standard acceptable to both the Irish and US authorities. Should that trial be successful, it may offer a template for EDI's plans to implement a USPC facility that allows US-bound passengers access to the entire terminal.

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowTopic-g1-i10702-k14363184-US_pre_clearance_Dublin-Air_Travel.html

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

US bound passengers already do have access to the whole terminal. It just means once you pass CBP and "enter the USA", you can't mix freely with the rest of the public. I think we're missing something here if this idea is a serious one, it will still require a sterile area that's "US soil" before boarding that you can't leave.

[tartan 201]

US bound passengers already do have access to the whole terminal. It just means once you pass CBP and "enter the USA", you can't mix freely with the rest of the public. I think we're missing something here if this idea is a serious one, it will still require a sterile area that's "US soil" before boarding that you can't leave.

Re "US bound passengers already do have access to the whole terminal": yes they do at EDI presently (because there's no USPC) but don't at DUB once they've passed USPC.

EDI's plan, according to the article linked to below, is "to allow passengers to continue to access the whole terminal once they have completed the US checks". So the aim of that is to avoid "a sterile area that's "US soil" before boarding that you can't leave" and allow US-bound passengers to "mix freely with the rest of the public" (i.e. non-US-bound passengers).

https://archive.is/Cq4b3

There's two elements I can see that would make that difficult. The first is that US-bound passengers would be mixing with all other passengers and so to make EDI's plan work, all passengers (irrespective of destination) would presumably need to be security screened to a standard acceptable to the US and UK authorities.

At DUB, that's done by initially screening all departing passengers to Irish standards at the main security screening area, then screening all US-bound passengers to US standards at the USPC facility (after which those passengers can't mix with non-US-bound passengers).

The trial I mentioned seems to allow some US-bound passengers to be screened only once and to a standard acceptable to both authorities. So that trial, should it be successful, would seem to offer a template to meet the aim of EDI's plan.

The second difficulty would be with customs and the potential that, for example, a US-bound passenger satisfactorily completes the USPC checks and then mixes with a non-US-bound passenger who gives the US-bound passenger some additional duty free goods to take with them such that they exceed their personal allowance. I'm not sure how that would be prevented under EDI's plan.

I note, however, that EDI have partnered with Pangiam to develop these plans. Their CEO "served as Acting Secretary of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) where he managed over 240,000 employees and components of multiple security agencies including the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), the Coast Guard, and more. His past experiences include implementing innovations to the U.S. international arrival and departure process" and their COO
"held roles at U.S. Customs & Border Protection (CBP), the U.S. Navy, the National Security Staff, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). His most recent experience was at CBP where he oversaw the strategy and expansion of its Preclearance program". So presumably the EDI team are getting some well-founded advice that what they want to do is achievable.

https://pangiam.com/leadership-team/

[CabinCrewe]

EDI team are getting some well-founded advice
The same was said about Liz Truss’s consultancy advice… Still, nice publicity to fatten the goose.

[tictack67]

The same was said about Liz Truss’s consultancy advice… Still, nice publicity to fatten the goose.

Wow, Edinburgh really is becoming the Megan Markle of airports, all that bitter jealousy just because, oh I don't know, Airlines want to fly there lol.

Absolutely triggered and I'm loving it

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Guys, the point has always been that post US CBP you are considered to be on US soil and free to enter the US domestically. There's no major country on Earth that does customs any other way. You're actually conflating two issues here :
1) Security - easy fix if the US "trusts" the DfT level of security, which given they do daily for flights to the US shouldn't be an issue IMHO. Not even sure why the second security check is even needed in DUB. Anyone know?
2) Entering the US and clearing customs before leaving Scotland. Facial recognition doesn't get you round that one.You can't do this then go to Weatherspooons (is there even one? I don't drink and fly!) for a pint with Shug and his new bird. Really.

Sounds like a lot of nice PR fluff and dollars for the lads. Happy to be wrong if someone can explain what we're all missing here.

[tartan 201]

Security - easy fix if the US "trusts" the DfT level of security, which given they do daily for flights to the US shouldn't be an issue IMHO. Not even sure why the second security check is even needed in DUB. Anyone know?


It's needed in DUB because when you arrive in the US having used USPC in DUB you come off the airbridge into the airside departure lounge and are free to go direct to the gate of your departing flight (or leave the airport as a domestic passenger if that's your destination). It follows therefore that you have to be security screened in DUB to the same standard as the other passengers you'll be mixing with in the airside lounge of the airport you arrive at in the US. That standard requires that screening is carried out by a Federal Government employee or by personnel of a qualified private screening company subcontracted to the TSA and is currently slightly different to the standard in the UK (e.g. I'm regularly required to take my shoes off going through US security screening but not in the UK).

(Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44901)

However, if you arrive in the US from the UK (or anywhere without USPC) and are catching a connecting flight then you have to go through TSA security screening on arrival in the US before entering the airside departure lounge. This ensures that you've been screened to the same standard as the other passengers you'll be mixing with (as described above).

A similar situation applies in reverse. If I travel (say) PHL>LHR>EDI I have to clear security at PHL then again at LHR as the DfT require all passengers boarding a flight departing the UK to be screened to their standards.

Note that passing through the USPC facility in DUB doesn't mean that you've legally entered the US, it just means that you're cleared to enter the US. The Irish Government website makes that clear where it says:

The preclearance facility is within Irish jurisdiction and the laws of Ireland apply at all times. US preclearance officers are not considered law enforcement officers. The only law enforcement officers at Irish Airports are An Garda Síochána and Customs Officers.

Eligibility for admission to the US is determined by CBP officials. Ineligibility may be determined on a number of grounds. Travellers avail of the facility of preclearance on a consensual basis. Until their flight departs, passengers remain in Irish legal jurisdiction and have the right to withdraw from the preclearance process at any time.


(Source: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/cb8ce1-us-preclearance/)

So where you say "the point has always been that post US CBP you are considered to be on US soil" I'm not sure that's correct. My understanding from the above would be that once you've passed the USPC then legally you're still on Irish soil but are cleared to enter the US with no further checks when you reach US soil.

Anyway, let's leave it at that and see what, if any, progress is made with this proposal over the next few months.

[Planeraz]

March 2023

Some stats and approx load factors for certain routes.

The million pax total exceeded for first time since last October. 1,009,599. Compared to 1,105,751 in March 2019. Total is around approx 92% of last comparable monthly stats.

QR - Doha 19,318 or 95%
TK - Istanbul 8,971 or 90%
UA - Newark 9,539 or 95%
DL - JFK 8,250 or 93%

Qatar continue to perform strongly. The US routes bouncing back nicely following a dip in February. TK also up.

Some stats for other European routes.

Copenhagen - 14,474. Little wonder Norwegian is going double daily 3 x times per week.
Helsinki - 3,027. Finnair up 108% on this time last year.
Paris CDG - AF and EZY - 32,476 up 77% on last year.
Irish Republic routes have performed very strongly.
Dublin - 58,535 up 33%
Cork - 14,246. Up 209%
Stockholm - 4,133 up 664% Scandinavian increasing to daily should boost this further.
Amsterdam - 42,155 up 31% despite KLM reductions.
Oslo - 9,032 up 97%

[Planeraz]

United S24

According to aero routes and a few other articles, American, Delta and United are already starting to announce aircraft changes for S24. Delta on certain premium European routes swapping out A330’s for the A359. United expect to receive a number of 737 max 10 in 2nd Q of 2024, which will be used on domestic and certain transatlantic routes. I wonder if this will be the way ahead for the EDI routes, given the intention is to retire the 757 fleet?

[laviation]

United S24

According to aero routes and a few other articles, American, Delta and United are already starting to announce aircraft changes for S24. Delta on certain premium European routes swapping out A330’s for the A359. United expect to receive a number of 737 max 10 in 2nd Q of 2024, which will be used on domestic and certain transatlantic routes. I wonder if this will be the way ahead for the EDI routes, given the intention is to retire the 757 fleet?
Believe United will prioritise replacing 757 with MAX 10 domestically for now. They have that giant order of Dreamliners too. I think EDI will move to the 787-8/9 in the coming years rather than MAX10

[Planeraz]

Numerous delays today at EDI. Terminal overwhelmed at times. United 978 to Washington pushed back from gate 11. Then didn’t move for 95 mins. Incoming Qatar 788 landed then sat for 45 mins. Presumably he would have been assigned gate 11. A Lufthansa 321 at gate 4 then pushed back as the Qatar was heading in. Further delays. The United 752 then started to move. Lined up to take off. Started to roll then aborted. Flight cancelled. All the other widebody stands were occupied by a Westjet 789, another delayed UA 752 bound for Chicago and a delayed delta 763 to Boston. Just shows what can happen when one wide-body gate is blocked by another aircraft. All of this before the real summer rush starts. Surely a terminal extension of some kind is required to cope with the ever increasing number of arrivals and departures?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Surely a terminal extension of some kind is required to cope with the ever increasing number of arrivals and departures?
Or just contingency bussing, it's surprisingly common at airports with huge seasonality. Parking can be remote on the 100 stands I think? Engines running on a taxiway isn't ideal. You might find that the crew who handled the outbound were off handling someone else and the pushed aircraft would be neglected until someone made a call.
I suspect that they're reaching a natural limit of what that 1977 terminal can realistically process, and the next big step is something that a venture capitalist owner would be reluctant to take without public funding.

[VickersVicount]

without public funding.
Which with GIP creaming off from annual revenue of almost 40M, most would find hard to swallow. But suspect GIP would be long gone before that sort of scenario arose.

[willy wombat]

Interesting as I flew as pax EDILGW this afternoon. While fighting my way through the terminal crowds I thought of all the EDI fanboys on this forum who rave about new routes and larger aircraft with never a thought for the poor passengers and the inadequate terminal facilities.

[A350Saltire]

Interesting as I flew as pax EDILGW this afternoon. While fighting my way through the terminal crowds I thought of all the EDI fanboys on this forum who rave about new routes and larger aircraft with never a thought for the poor passengers and the inadequate terminal facilities.

My parents went through today to catch their flight to Madrid and they said they were through quickly and sitting relaxing in a bar with a drink. I guess it’s peaks and troughs.

[tartan 201]

Interesting as I flew as pax EDILGW this afternoon. While fighting my way through the terminal crowds I thought of all the EDI fanboys on this forum who rave about new routes and larger aircraft with never a thought for the poor passengers and the inadequate terminal facilities.

Pay enough and you might soon be able to bypass "the inadequate terminal facilities" completely:

http://www.aviationpros.com/fbos-tenants/press-release/53060885/signature-aviation-unveils-stunning-new-edinburgh-location-with-grand-opening-event

Signature Aviation's EDI location is also ready to launch its Elite Class product, enabling customers to utilize the facility for both arrival and departure for their commercial flights. Discussions with airlines are already underway to ensure a successful launch

[tictack67]

Interesting as I flew as pax EDILGW this afternoon. While fighting my way through the terminal crowds I thought of all the EDI fanboys on this forum who rave about new routes and larger aircraft with never a thought for the poor passengers and the inadequate terminal facilities.

Why just this week at spacious Glasgow they couldn't even board a special assistance passenger on the correct flight.

Not uncommon to sit at LHR for 30mins to wait for a stand or wait for 50mons in queue to take off, all comparative to scale. Things go wrong, that's aviation, but again losing your **** cos Edinburgh has a few new route is sheet idiocy

[willy wombat]

Hardly losing my ****. Merely pointing out that increase in routes and aircraft sizes can have negative as well as positive effect on the passenger experience.

[Breathe]

Signature Aviation have officially opened their FBO at EDI.Judging by the photo, the staff had a jolly time at the opening ceremony.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2023-05-17/signature-aviation-inaugurates-scotland-fbo

Signature Aviation held a grand-opening celebration for its newly completed FBO at Scotland’s Edinburgh Airport (EGPH) late last week. The facility, which took two years to build, features a 5,575-sq-ft (515-sq-m) terminal with discrete entrances for passengers and crew. Amenities include VIP suites, conference room, coffee bar, business center, crew lounge, and 48-space secure vehicle parking lot.

The location has nearly 70,000 sq ft (6,497 sq m) of dedicated ramp, which allows it to handle any size aircraft up to an Airbus A330. It is fully self-sufficient with its own equipment ranging from a pair of fuel trucks to airstairs, tugs, ground power units, and belt loaders.

Signature has invested substantially in the FBO and its security screening equipment. Installation of a CT3 X-ray machine upgrade is planned for early 2024. The company is in negotiations with airlines to introduce its Elite Class product there, which will allow commercial passengers to use the facility for arriving and departing flights.

“We are looking forward to a successful partnership with Edinburgh Airport as we grow our business in Scotland and the UK," said John-Angus Smith, Signature’s managing director for EMEA.

[GoEDI]

Numerous delays today at EDI. Terminal overwhelmed at times. United 978 to Washington pushed back from gate 11. Then didn’t move for 95 mins. Incoming Qatar 788 landed then sat for 45 mins. Presumably he would have been assigned gate 11. A Lufthansa 321 at gate 4 then pushed back as the Qatar was heading in. Further delays. The United 752 then started to move. Lined up to take off. Started to roll then aborted. Flight cancelled. All the other widebody stands were occupied by a Westjet 789, another delayed UA 752 bound for Chicago and a delayed delta 763 to Boston. Just shows what can happen when one wide-body gate is blocked by another aircraft. All of this before the real summer rush starts. Surely a terminal extension of some kind is required to cope with the ever increasing number of arrivals and departures?

The only delay relating to EDI here was the QR B788 having to hold for a stand. Stand 16 is largely unavailable this week whilst the jetbridge that got into a fight with a QR A35K a while back is finally repaired. Therein lies the main problem today, combined with the WS B789 running half an hour late departing which didn't help.

[ld0595]

How have the loads been on the Calgary route so far?

[Planeraz]

How have the loads been on the Calgary route so far?

Only started yesterday. According to dataset - 308 inbound from Calgary. Don’t have info for outbound. Westjet 789 seats 320.