Edinburgh-4

[tictack67]

Only started yesterday. According to dataset - 308 inbound from Calgary. Don’t have info for outbound. Westjet 789 seats 320.

Thoughts and prayers for those triggered by this news

[CabinCrewe]

wonderful. If you can’t get an (almost) full load on an inaugural when can you ! :)

[ld0595]

Didn't realise yesterday was the inaugural! Good loads to start :D

[Asturias56]

how many were free loading for the publicity?

[Breathe]

Article about US tourism in Scotland that mentions the airport.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65637377

Edinburgh Airport has begun new links this month with Atlanta, Georgia, and also with Calgary in Canada, while resuming links with Boston and Chicago.

Following Brexit, it has been successful in attracting a bigger share of transatlantic travel than Glasgow, which used to dominate.

And the capital's airport has a significantly higher share of inbound American travellers - as opposed to outbound travellers from the UK - than any other major airport in Britain.

Between March and October last year, more than half the passengers on US flights began their journey in the US, peaking at 76% in August last year.

In 2019, before the pandemic, 636,000 US citizens visited Scotland.

Americans accounted for 18% of international visitor numbers.

Their total spend for the year amounted to £717m.

US visitors each spent an average of £161 per day.

The average length of stay was 6.7 nights.

Source: VisitScotland

Edinburgh Airport chief executive Gordon Dewar says that a big change is in the spread beyond the summer months, with more airlines continuing to fly these routes into autumn.

"We were on a growth trajectory, and post-Covid, it really accelerated.

"The American market was fastest out the blocks. They stopped travel restrictions a year before Europe did, so they were ready to go."

Mr Dewar reports that transatlantic passenger numbers are 25% higher this year than they were before the pandemic.

"We've got more destinations, higher frequencies and a really interesting development is we've got longer seasons.

"One American airline said Edinburgh was the most profitable first year it ever had on a transatlantic route."

[Breathe]

Thoughts and prayers for those triggered by this news
Why would this news "trigger" people? :confused:

[SWBKCB]

The only delay relating to EDI here was the QR B788 having to hold for a stand. Stand 16 is largely unavailable this week whilst the jetbridge that got into a fight with a QR A35K a while back is finally repaired. Therein lies the main problem today, combined with the WS B789 running half an hour late departing which didn't help.

They all happened at EDI - doesn't really matter who was 'at fault' if your system doesn't have enough capacity to cope when the inevitable sh*t happens! :=

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

In 2019, before the pandemic, 636,000 US citizens visited Scotland
PIK used to get ~ 300K pa before they lost the monopoly. I would have thought we'd have way more than doubled that figure in 33 years?

[laviation]

Certainly would've more than doubled, but the count might've been US citizens entering at Scottish airports. A lot will still fly into Heathrow and take the train up once they've done all the sightseeing in London

[Planeraz]

how many were free loading for the publicity?

I’ll take a more positive stance. A new route arrives almost full. Still only mid May. No real social media fanfare. No water cannon salute. Haven’t found anything on Westjet social media or EDI with any real mention. If the advance bookings are poor, both would have been on it long before now.

[CabinCrewe]

suspect their media team were caught up in the mess that was the possible pilot strike and cancellations of hundreds of international flights, so suspect fanfare was not top priority. A few inaugurals I have been involved in actually offered a promo discounted fare bucket which fills first.

[laviation]

If this route does well, intrigued to see where they'll go next from Calgary..

[GoEDI]

They all happened at EDI - doesn't really matter who was 'at fault' if your system doesn't have enough capacity to cope when the inevitable sh*t happens! :=

Said system would have had the capacity ordinarily without the works in progress closing a code E stand... Although it can certainly be questioned why the stand closure/jet bridge repair was not completed before mid May...

[ld0595]

If this route does well, intrigued to see where they'll go next from Calgary..

​​​​​I'm fairly sure they've recently consolidated all long haul flying to Calgary so I wouldn't expect a resumption of Toronto (or Halifax which was at Glasgow) any time soon. Any frequency uplift would also come at the expense of another route since all 789s are accounted for and they've got no plans to add any more.

[Planeraz]

Delta

Another new route on the horizon? A couple of sources at EDI dropping hints that Delta, for S24, may announce another new route. The twin cities - MSP is rumoured to be the destination.

[laviation]

Delta

Another new route on the horizon? A couple of sources at EDI dropping hints that Delta, for S24, may announce another new route. The twin cities - MSP is rumoured to be the destination.
I think Detroit is a better shot - MSP to DUB was always my thought for Minneapolis

[XSBaggage]

My parents went through today to catch their flight to Madrid and they said they were through quickly and sitting relaxing in a bar with a drink. I guess it’s peaks and troughs.
I totally agree with the peaks and troughs theory, although lately there seems to be an increasing number of peaks. Two departures from EDI last year spring to mind with me, one a mid afternoon to PFO that was smooth and easy, although with one of the horrible tarmac walks in the oldest part of the terminal, and the other was a first wave departure to MRS that, resulted in us almost missing the flight even though we had miscalculated and arrived in the car park nearly 4 hours prior to departure time.
I had never seen an airport as crowded as the first wave departure from EDI - all airlines (EZY, Jet2, FR) had horrendous queues at bag drop, and Security was packed and they were closing the entry gates more often than opening them - cue people shouting, screaming, pushing, fighting. Not pleasant. I don't know about aircraft movement delays, but I do know we had to be off our stand and wait remotely for our ATC slot on that morning flight. I'm happy for EDI's success, but it is definitely bursting at the seams at times!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I think Detroit is a better shot - MSP to DUB was always my thought for Minneapolis
Part of me wants to dampen down excitable chatter BUT I always think of Dublin when I was growing up with two Aer Lingus B747s out to BOS and JFK via SNN where NWO also flew onto PIK. Same old slog year after year for ages. Over time, that long haul market changed massively for the better and the dead seasonality has been evened out. Perhaps something similar is finally happening to Scotland, long overdue and without a based flag carrier to help. Sometimes we don't believe change can happen even as we live through it. It would be interesting to see the pull factor EDI now exerts all the way from NCL and the borders to Ayrshire and beyond. United don't need to serve GLA/NCL anymore if they can pull traffic to EDI.
I grew up watching the NW/AC/AA/BA/UA bubble burst at GLA in the '90s, perhaps this is finally the real deal in growth?

[ATNotts]

Part of me wants to dampen down excitable chatter BUT I always think of Dublin when I was growing up with two Aer Lingus B747s out to BOS and JFK via SNN where NWO also flew onto PIK. Same old slog year after year for ages. Over time, that long haul market changed massively for the better and the dead seasonality has been evened out. Perhaps something similar is finally happening to Scotland, long overdue and without a based flag carrier to help. Sometimes we don't believe change can happen even as we live through it. It would be interesting to see the pull factor EDI now exerts all the way from NCL and the borders to Ayrshire and beyond. United don't need to serve GLA/NCL anymore if they can pull traffic to EDI.
I grew up watching the NW/AC/AA/BA/UA bubble burst at GLA in the '90s, perhaps this is finally the real deal in growth?
Given the growth of transatlantic routes at Edinburgh one wonders whether British Airways and Virgin may be regretting not having a foothold there.

Of course Virgin is allied to Delta and BA with American so all is hardly lost, but it appears as though the year-round market is making EDI very attractive and the two 'London' carriers may have missed an opportunity.

[tartan 201]

A member of staff at the airport has said "Edinburgh has become the largest UK airport for Transatlantic flying outside London, which is a fantastic achievement (with more to come!)" (my emphasis) so the excitable chatter would seem to have some merit.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/pavel-halas-62253327_edinburghairport-calgary-edinburgh-activity-7064942011052609536-dEuq

[Planeraz]

A member of staff at the airport has said "Edinburgh has become the largest UK airport for Transatlantic flying outside London, which is a fantastic achievement (with more to come!)" (my emphasis) so the excitable chatter would seem to have some merit.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/pavel-halas-62253327_edinburghairport-calgary-edinburgh-activity-7064942011052609536-dEuq

Very exciting times for EDI. Delta’s Atlanta route is said to be performing way above initial expectations. Increasing from initially proposed 5 x weekly to daily before the route even starts.

[nebpor]

Part of me wants to dampen down excitable chatter BUT I always think of Dublin when I was growing up with two Aer Lingus B747s out to BOS and JFK via SNN where NWO also flew onto PIK. Same old slog year after year for ages. Over time, that long haul market changed massively for the better and the dead seasonality has been evened out. Perhaps something similar is finally happening to Scotland, long overdue and without a based flag carrier to help. Sometimes we don't believe change can happen even as we live through it. It would be interesting to see the pull factor EDI now exerts all the way from NCL and the borders to Ayrshire and beyond. United don't need to serve GLA/NCL anymore if they can pull traffic to EDI.
I grew up watching the NW/AC/AA/BA/UA bubble burst at GLA in the '90s, perhaps this is finally the real deal in growth?

The difference is Dublin has 1) Irish tourism trade, which is huge compared to Scotland and 2) Lots of very large international business, driving lots of business travel - not much business to fly to Scotland for anymore

[Sk1schoolsam]

The difference is Dublin has 1) Irish tourism trade, which is huge compared to Scotland and 2) Lots of very large international business, driving lots of business travel - not much business to fly to Scotland for anymore

But maybe this will help create likes to attract more. I am sure DUB’s US connectivity helps drive this.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Very exciting times for EDI. Delta’s Atlanta route is said to be performing way above initial expectations. Increasing from initially proposed 5 x weekly to daily before the route even starts.

IMO (From a purely personal practical perspective) a direct West coast link with Delta/United to SFO or LAX even on a 3x Weekly service would be a boon. I think there is huge potential for leisure travel (California Tourism advertising heavily on the radio at the moment) so both ways, and for business with Silicon Valley and our home grown E Gaming and other tech companies.

I welcome any new connections but cannot disagree with the need for investment and facilities growth but sceptical if the current owners will ever go as far as a new Terminal.

[nebpor]

But maybe this will help create likes to attract more. I am sure DUB’s US connectivity helps drive this.

I dearly hope so - it's a pain getting out of Scotland these days, I'm just a bit pessimistic that EDI is the next DUB!

[Sk1schoolsam]

I dearly hope so - it's a pain getting out of Scotland these days, I'm just a bit pessimistic that EDI is the next DUB!

Nor do I for lots of reasons they are very different, and unfortunately IMO the financial and political backing is not there either.

[laviation]

It would be interesting to see the pull factor EDI now exerts all the way from NCL and the borders to Ayrshire and beyond. United don't need to serve GLA/NCL anymore if they can pull traffic to EDI.

Certainly. It will be interesting to see whether UA give Glasgow another go. In terms of their "recently gone" UK destinations, well BFS, NCL and BHX certainly won't come back for the forseeable. I'm of the opinion UA will launch LAX-EDI with Dreamliners a few years down the line. Hearing whispers of a certain North West airport getting EWR back in Summer 24, and that's about it from United really.

[Planeraz]

Certainly. It will be interesting to see whether UA give Glasgow another go. In terms of their "recently gone" UK destinations, well BFS, NCL and BHX certainly won't come back for the forseeable. I'm of the opinion UA will launch LAX-EDI with Dreamliners a few years down the line. Hearing whispers of a certain North West airport getting EWR back in Summer 24, and that's about it from United really.

EDI management certainly appear to be confident of securing more routes. American from PHL is an obvious target. PHL airport have specifically listed EDI as a route they want back. All will depend on aircraft availability with AA. As posted earlier, a new route with Delta is being suggested. MSP and DTW to name two. I wonder if they may extend ATL to a near year round operation given they are scaling back JFK in W23?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

For Delta, JFK will have a lot of traffic heading to New York as well as good connections out of a major hub. ATL will have almost no one going to Atlanta and will be funneling one stop connections. Given almost no one is heading to Detroit or the twin cities compared to say Boston, you have two routes with good point to point in JFK/BOS and one route to mop up connections. Might it not make more sense to think in terms of ATL being upgauged to an A330 over time rather than adding in DTW/MSP? DUB has neither if we're looking for comparison and MAN only has ATL albeit on VS.

[VickersVicount]

MSP/DTW would seem very ambitious. Wonder where that originated from unless there are incentives at play. I still have slight concerns the current US bubble will pop and that finite connecting pax would then just be pulled from other established hubs. Some of these suggested routes are marginal ex LHR never mind anywhere else.

[tictack67]

MSP/DTW would seem very ambitious. Wonder where that originated from unless there are incentives at play. I still have slight concerns the current US bubble will pop and that finite connecting pax would then just be pulled from other established hubs. Some of these suggested routes are marginal ex LHR never mind anywhere else.


MSP and DTW handle similar annual passenger numbers as SIN, GRU, MUC and MNL

CAA stats from Feb'23 show LHR's MSP and DTW routes each had over 11000 passenger in Feb

Taking into account the number of flights from LHR to EWR (87k) LHR-MIA (88k) LHR-SFO (71k) the passenger numbers on these daily flights don't seem to suggest this a marginal route.

source

Table 12.1

https://www.caa.co.uk/data-and-analysis/uk-aviation-market/airports/uk-airport-data/uk-airport-data-2023/march-2023/

Always helpful if posters could rationalise or evidence their assumptions. Many thanks

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

CAA stats from Feb'23 show LHR's MSP and DTW routes each had over 11000 passenger in Feb
Always helpful if posters could rationalise or evidence their assumptions. Many thanks
Aside from London (huge O&D) and Amsterdam (JV hub for DL/KL), what other European markets have either DTW or MSP service on Delta?
How many of those 11,000 are terminating in DTW/MSP? Both are Delta hubs used to funnel feed across the US but are rounding errors in terms of final destinations. My assumption is that no comparable secondary market has service to either and any increase to Scotland would make more sense over upguaging an existing route.

[tictack67]

Aside from London (huge O&D) and Amsterdam (JV hub for DL/KL), what other European markets have either DTW or MSP service on Delta?
How many of those 11,000 are terminating in DTW/MSP? Both are Delta hubs used to funnel feed across the US but are rounding errors in terms of final destinations. My assumption is that no comparable secondary market has service to either and any increase to Scotland would make more sense over upguaging an existing route.


That number is 11000 in Feb 2023, my point is pretty good passenger numbers for a daily flight compared to those routes I mentioned with multiple

FRA,MUC, CDG and Iceland all served from DTW, with Rome on 05/06/23

They figure is not bad, so for DL it's not as relevant as px obviously are either are connecting at DTW/MSP or terminating there.

Increasing their market without the huge costs of getting slots at LHR/LGW maybe their plan.

DTW serves 13 countries and 105 airports, MSP 11 countries and 124 airports

With the exception of climate change groups, the UK is the only place where arguments take place against the creation of new flight routes, or in this case even a rumour of a flight route. Quite remarkable really.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

FRA,MUC, CDG and Iceland all served from DTW, with Rome on 05/06/23.
FRA /MUC entry points to Germany, EU's biggest country. The other European points are all Skyteam
bases for partners. So no secondary DELTA markets out of MSP/DTW.
Not saying more flights is unlikely, but on the evidence I can see, MSP/DTW seem unlikely.

[SWBKCB]

With the exception of climate change groups, the UK is the only place where arguments take place against the creation of new flight routes, or in this case even a rumour of a flight route. Quite remarkable really.

Can you evidence that assumption? :ok:​​​​​​​

[A350Saltire]

The interest in new TATL routes from EDI might have something to do with this:

"One American airline said Edinburgh was the most profitable first year it ever had on a transatlantic route."

...from this article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65637377

[Planeraz]

Flynas

I wonder if EDI will make a pitch?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/299720/press-release-flynas-launches-rfp-through-routes-360-to-expand-route-network/

[nebpor]

Flynas

I wonder if EDI will make a pitch?

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/299720/press-release-flynas-launches-rfp-through-routes-360-to-expand-route-network/

They don't serve booze, and for that reason, ah'm oot!

[Planeraz]

United

Double daily Newark starts this evening. Both flights from EWR are booked full. Good to see such high demand.

[A350Saltire]

United

Double daily Newark starts this evening. Both flights from EWR are booked full. Good to see such high demand.

Great to hear. I believe the first DL ATL-EDI is tonight too.

[laviation]

Surprises me UA went for 2x 752 over, say, 1x 764 or 1x 787-10

[Planeraz]

Great to hear. I believe the first DL ATL-EDI is tonight too.

Yes indeed. When I checked last, it was also booked full with a standby list.

[Planeraz]

Surprises me UA went for 2x 752 over, say, 1x 764 or 1x 787-10

I’m assuming it’s a scheduling or aircraft availability decision. The late departure tonight and for the next four is being serviced by a west coast originating aircraft - SFO.

[inOban]

These later TA flights will be very useful for PAX starting from much of Scotland (and NE England !) because it will save a night in a hotel.

[GoEDI]

Surprises me UA went for 2x 752 over, say, 1x 764 or 1x 787-10

I’m assuming it’s a scheduling or aircraft availability decision. The late departure tonight and for the next four is being serviced by a west coast originating aircraft - SFO.

Or EDI widebody parking limitations...

[VickersVicount]

Or EDI widebody parking limitations...
If UA said they were bringing a Dreamliner, Im sure they’d find suddenly space…

[Sk1schoolsam]

If UA said they were bringing a Dreamliner, Im sure they’d find suddenly space…

Wishful thinking but would be great if they did bring a Dreamliner for NYC or other route.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Wishful thinking but would be great if they did bring a Dreamliner for NYC or other route.
Why do you say that? They have a hundred on order and Air Canada chose the B787 over the MAX for EDI this year.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Why do you say that? They have a hundred on order and Air Canada chose the B787 over the MAX for EDI this year.

Would be great if they did bring a 787s to EDI instead of the 757 or 767s - When do they expect deliveries?

[VickersVicount]

Would be great if they did bring a 787s to EDI instead of the 757 or 767s - When do they expect deliveries?
Equally where are all the A321s for all the carriers going?

[tictack67]

Equally where are all the A321s for all the carriers going?

United are only getting "a handful" towards the end of 2024, they don't arrive enmasse until 2025

Source interview with Dan Qualye Senior Vice President, who fear not mentions possible locations that may get A321XLR

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/united-a321xlr-polaris-business-class

​​

[Asturias56]

Equally where are all the A321s for all the carriers going?


replacing all the other , smaller, B737's and A 319,320 etc

[Planeraz]

replacing all the other , smaller, B737's and A 319,320 etc

United using a 321XLR on the EWR route, which can seat around 180 would technically be a small increase in capacity. The 752’s seat between 169 and 176. The 321’s would also be a substantial upgrade on comfort etc. Newer J class product and premier economy. The article posted above gives the biggest possible hint that EDI is likely to see the 321XLR.

[Sk1schoolsam]

United using a 321XLR on the EWR route, which can seat around 180 would technically be a small increase in capacity. The 752’s seat between 169 and 176. The 321’s would also be a substantial upgrade on comfort etc. Newer J class product and premier economy. The article posted above gives the biggest possible hint that EDI is likely to see the 321XLR.

And of a return to GLA too, positive for Scotland not necessarily helping EDI loads and hopefully they retain the double daily in NS24.

[Plane mad 134]

The article is from last year. Lots can change in a year and the 2nd daily EDI was added after the article using old GLA flight numbers. Never say never of course, but I feel JetBlue are more likely initially.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Anyone fill in the biggest long haul aircraft on they can fit on stand :
1 B757-200
2 B757-200
2A
3 B757-200
3A
4 B757-200
4A
12
15
16
18
21
23
25
Is that a total of eleven stands available if they're willing to bus? I know it's sub-par but even DXB happily buses many B77Ws per day.

[gham89]

Anyone fill in the biggest long haul aircraft on they can fit on stand :
1 B757-200
2 B757-200
2A B787-800
3 B757-200
3A
4 B757-200
4A B777-300ER
10A A330-200
12 B777-300ER
15 B777-300ER
16 B777-300ER
18 B777-300ER
21
23 A340-200
25
Is that a total of eleven stands available if they're willing to bus? I know it's sub-par but even DXB happily buses many B77Ws per day.

According to the NATS charts - updates in bold.

[SWBKCB]

even DXB happily buses many B77Ws per day.

On average, warmer and drier than EDI... :ok:

[Asturias56]

The elderly will remember that Singapore Paya Labar operated very efficiently with buses - but they were specials, very wide, about a foot off the ground, and A/C that could freeze you to death in 10 minutes. I can't remember anyone ever complaining- but then there were lots of them and they were applied using intelligence - something that seems lacking in any UK bus operation where sending one to move 180 passengers seem to be the norm

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

On average, warmer and drier than EDI... :ok:
Covered steps to a bus is a huge issue? Come on, it's doable, there's just no will for the added costs of doing it well. We are forever penny wise and pound foolish. Or perhaps the arguement being airport cost vs. handling agent cost in a never ending tussle.
Many European airports with awful winters also bus efficiently.

[Planeraz]

Tui - S24

Reported to be dropping long haul flights from EDI. Won’t be much of a surprise to most. Not a huge loss either given their limited offerings from EDI.

[Asturias56]

It helps if you remember to open the aeroplane - I nearly froze to death on some steps at LHR boarding a Brit Midland flight to Teesside one winter day - bus left - all got on the stairs - door locked...................

[inOban]

I must admit that I am puzzled at TUI abandoning Edinburgh. As the more prosperous side of the country I would have thought that it would be a decent market. I guess it's Glasgow or Newcastle.

[edistevie]

Tui - S24

Reported to be dropping long haul flights from EDI. Won’t be much of a surprise to most. Not a huge loss either given their limited offerings from EDI.
We went to Cancun last year from EDI flight was jammed packed, what gets me it was the last flight out from Edi at the beginning of July and it was the start of the School Holidays in the East, these flights started beginning of June same with the Florida flight, what a waste, these flights would possibly filled through all of July and probably August too.

[CabinCrewe]

odd if apparent rip roaring success they didn't choose to extend the series (and never have done even pre covid). They can direct their travel agencies to fill anything I suppose.
I'm sure they’ve done the ‘math’ of costs positioning crew and a Dreamliner a few weeks a year. Think BRS was deemed marginal
also.
Perhaps the other transatlantic offerings are giving cheap one stop connections via IAD or NYC, plus if VS sticks around, their high summer MCO service for Florida.

[A350Saltire]

If I was to choose something to lose from EDI it would have been TUI. Can’t see this having a big impact. Got plenty connections to North America (with more to come I’m sure) including a very good A350 product on VS to MCO.

FR, U2 and LS I’m sure will cover the other European holiday destinations well.

TUI have been pretty stagnant for years at EDI.

[Planeraz]

Lufthansa W23

LH making additional cuts. EDI appears to come out of this fairly well.

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230601-lhnw23eu

[Breathe]

United are only getting "a handful" towards the end of 2024, they don't arrive enmasse until 2025

Source interview with Dan Qualye Senior Vice President, who fear not mentions possible locations that may get A321XLR

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/united-a321xlr-polaris-business-class

​​
Dan Qualye? The article mentions a Patrick Quayle. Were you thinking of another vice president back in the day? :)

[Planeraz]

Busiest day of S23 so far tomorrow and biggest number of scheduled wide-body aircraft (probably ever?) in one day at EDI.

Air Canada resume Toronto service this evening/tomorrow..

3 x 752’s - United
3 x 763’s - Delta
3 x 788’s - Air Canada & 2 x Qatar
1 x 789 - Westjet
1 x 764 - United

Big test for the airport and its infrastructure.

[ld0595]

Busiest day of S23 so far tomorrow and biggest number of scheduled wide-body aircraft (probably ever?) in one day at EDI.

Air Canada resume Toronto service this evening/tomorrow..

3 x 752’s - United
3 x 763’s - Delta
3 x 788’s - Air Canada & 2 x Qatar
1 x 789 - Westjet
1 x 764 - United

Big test for the airport and its infrastructure.

You can add VS to that list with the A35K from June 24. Hainan still to come with their A330 as well albeit on Fridays and Mondays. As you say, busy summer ahead!

Loadings for tonight's Toronto looking pretty healthy with just handful of seats free in economy. Even the return is looking reasonably well loaded too across all cabins.

[A350Saltire]

You can add VS to that list with the A35K from June 24. Hainan still to come with their A330 as well albeit on Fridays and Mondays. As you say, busy summer ahead!

Loadings for tonight's Toronto looking pretty healthy with just handful of seats free in economy. Even the return is looking reasonably well loaded too across all cabins.

AC to YYZ was a 789 rather than a 788 too.

[gham89]

AC to YYZ was a 789 rather than a 788 too.

788 scheduled for tomorrow though.

[Planeraz]

The initial W23 ACL suggest increased slot request/ international activity at EDI. We already know about Qatar increasing to double daily year round and Air Canada offering services for most of winter 23. The full report due out any day. Could EDI be in line for something new or the return of a familiar airline??

[laviation]

The initial W23 ACL suggest increased slot request/ international activity at EDI. We already know about Qatar increasing to double daily year round and Air Canada offering services for most of winter 23. The full report due out any day. Could EDI be in line for something new or the return of a familiar airline??
United to LAX could definitely be one for Summer 24.
LAX airport has been offering incentives to carriers who relaunch certain routes, started in 2022 and ends in 24 IIRC.
One of those is Scotland. Given United’s success at EDI, would not surprise me in the slightest to see them start that route

I'm led to believe the reports are going public in about a week's time.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

United to LAX could definitely be one for Summer 24.
LAX-LHR does well with the front cabins being packed out with some seriously high earners, allowing decent fares down the back. LAX-LHR on United is just now back to 2 x daily after they massively downsized long haul out of T7 and closed the Dreamliner pilot base. Now there's maybe a market for Scotland-LAX/SFO on a 2-3 weekly summer holiday basis but LAX isn't a hub for any of the US majors so seems pretty unlikely. American back on PHL-EDI now they have all their new B787-8s and more B787-9s on the way makes more sense for 2024 IMHO.
Scotland just doesn't have the front cabin numbers from California to make the use of a B787 worthwhile IMHO.

[tartan 201]

American back on PHL-EDI now they have all their new B787-8s and more B787-9s on the way makes more sense for 2024 IMHO.


This (https://airlinenewsdaily.com/2023/06/01/top-news-stories/) mentions "American Airlines announced on Wednesday that it will add more flights to Europe in the coming months. The airline said that it will add 10 new routes to Europe, including flights from New York to Lisbon, Portugal, and from Dallas to Milan, Italy." I wonder if EDI will be one of them (though I can't find the original source of that comment so can't vouch for the veracity of Airline News Daily's report).

[ld0595]

United to LAX could definitely be one for Summer 24.
LAX airport has been offering incentives to carriers who relaunch certain routes, started in 2022 and ends in 24 IIRC.
One of those is Scotland. Given United’s success at EDI, would not surprise me in the slightest to see them start that route

I'm led to believe the reports are going public in about a week's time.

Very unlikely. LHR is the only place in Europe that United flies to from LAX. In fact, the US3 only fly to LHR and Paris from LAX. I think Dublin was set to begin but was cancelled due to Covid. In the case of United, it makes much more sense for them to funnel traffic traffic to Europe through ORD, IAD and EWR.

The only carrier I can feasibly see flying between LAX and EDI is Vigrin Atlantic shared with Manchester.

[laviation]

Well that was certainly a brain fart.. part of me thought they had at least more than LHR.

LAX historically did quite well with Virgin and Thomas Cook out of Manchester.

I think given now Virgin are growing again from MAN they will deploy the “get the train down” line to EDI like they did with MAN!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

LAX historically did quite well with Virgin and Thomas Cook out of Manchester.
Virgin tried MAN-SFO at 2 to 3 weekly in summer 2017 and 2018 which became 3x weekly MAN-LAX by 2019, West Coast USA isn't easy to make work from the UK. I think Thomas Cook did well on UK based POS on high volume less than daily holiday flights. And of course the GBP/USD exchange rate isn't great for UK originating passengers at the minute sadly.

[CabinCrewe]

I hadn't realised VS MCO start had been pushed back to June 21st. Thats quite a short season for this type of route. Looks like they’re waiting for peak school hols to fill all the leisure config A350-1000 391 seats 😮 though suppose still fair bit less than the 455 on the ‘Queen’

[Planeraz]

The initial W23 ACL suggest increased slot request/ international activity at EDI. We already know about Qatar increasing to double daily year round and Air Canada offering services for most of winter 23. The full report due out any day. Could EDI be in line for something new or the return of a familiar airline??

A contact at EDI is suggesting that Emirates is very much a possibility in spring 2024. The airport is also actively pursuing Etihad again. A number of weeks ago, the airline did drop hints on their socials about a return to certain cities. EDI was on one of their departure boards using the same flight numbers as before.

[ld0595]

United to LAX could definitely be one for Summer 24.
LAX airport has been offering incentives to carriers who relaunch certain routes, started in 2022 and ends in 24 IIRC.
One of those is Scotland. Given United’s success at EDI, would not surprise me in the slightest to see them start that route

I'm led to believe the reports are going public in about a week's time.

A contact at EDI is suggesting that Emirates is very much a possibility in spring 2024. The airport is also actively pursuing Etihad again. A number of weeks ago, the airline did drop hints on their socials about a return to certain cities. EDI was on one of their departure boards using the same flight numbers as before.

GIven that the second daily Glasgow hasn't returned then it wouldn't surprise me. An evening departure from Scotland to Dubai was popular and no doubt it will still do well.

[Sk1schoolsam]

[QUOTE=Skipness One Foxtrot;11444736]LAX-LHR does well with the front cabins being packed out with some seriously high earners, allowing decent fares down the back. LAX-LHR on United is just now back to 2 x daily after they massively downsized long haul out of T7 and closed the Dreamliner pilot base. Now there's maybe a market for Scotland-LAX/SFO on a 2-3 weekly summer holiday basis but LAX isn't a hub for any of the US majors so seems pretty unlikely. American back on PHL-EDI now they have all their new B787-8s and more B787-9s on the way makes more sense for 2024 IMHO.
Scotland just doesn't have the front cabin numbers from California to make the use of a B787 worthwhile IMHO.[/QUOTE

LAX is a hub for United and Delta Airlines. I have been in both this year. They are more focused on West bound Pacific traffic and transcontinental flights. T4 SFO is a Delta hub and had a number of European flights and code shares that I saw.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

LAX is a hub for United and Delta Airlines. I have been in both this year. They are more focused on West bound Pacific traffic and transcontinental flights. T4 SFO is a Delta hub and had a number of European flights and code shares that I saw.
LAX is a focus city for both airlines but a hub for neither, there's a huge difference mate. LAX is the BOS of the West Coast, bit US3 presence, no actual hub and spoke operation although they do feed into California and beyond.
Delta don't actually fly transatlantic from SFO so far as I am aware, codeshares will be on KLM. United however DO hub at SFO, it's one of their biggest.

[inOban]

There's rapidly growing film/TV production in Scotland . I wonder if this is affecting potential demand to LAX?

[laviation]

I do forsee Virgin bringing MAN-LAX back in 2025
I think it depends on the value of the pound to see if anyone will give LAX-EDI a go.. I think EDI should be able to hold on to all of it's current TATL network however further expansion might seem a bit much especially given the GBP-USD is steadily improving..?

[Rutan16]

SFO offer:

Atlanta Boston Detroit Los Angeles Minneapolis JFK Salt Lake City and Seattle.

Literally only connections to the real Delta hubs

Delta operate ZERO International from SFO on own metal and other than LAX bugger all that isn’t a genuine hub

Not even a Connection presence apart from a few off peak Seattle rotations!

Indeed barely even a focus city !



LAX offer:

Add a few more hubs and flights back east and a selection of Connection flights to nowhere destinations .

They do offer services to Hawaii and across the Pacific and serve a few Latin American points as well .

Again very much focus city territory

The primary west coast hub is somewhere much further north in Seattle.

Whilst Minneapolis remains very much their main Hub west of Detroit by large margin

Any idea that Delta are a major player in California is simply erroneous .

[CabinCrewe]

There's rapidly growing film/TV production in Scotland . I wonder if this is affecting potential demand to LAX?
Suspect thats a minuscule drop in the ocean, it ain't no Hollywood.

[CabinCrewe]

further expansion might seem a bit much especially given the GBP-USD is steadily improving..?
And getting carried away ignoring this big factor…

[laviation]

https://twitter.com/HgfdcvhS812?s=20

I couldn't help but have a little chuckle while giving this page a read :D

[Breathe]

https://twitter.com/HgfdcvhS812?s=20

I couldn't help but have a little chuckle while giving this page a read :D
I really hope it's a parody account. I saw a reply from another account with similar cringe vibes :eek:

[Breathe]

A photo of the new Edinburgh Airport terminal from 1978.

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/history/gallery/34-edinburgh-photographs-perfectly-capture-27038320


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1208x1227/0_gl1100493_1ed74968b7d2365e583124a38f42e736ed7c6655.jpg

[ATNotts]

Breathe,

Any ideas on the operator of the Caravelle? I've enlarged the image but still can't make out the titles.

[GulfTraveller]

I believe the Caravelle belongs to the French charter company Aerotour (FH).

[Rutan16]

Breathe,

Any ideas on the operator of the Caravelle? I've enlarged the image but still can't make out the titles.

Aerotour

[Sk1schoolsam]

https://twitter.com/HgfdcvhS812?s=20

I couldn't help but have a little chuckle while giving this page a read :D


😂 This dude seriously does not like Edinburgh or EDI!!! 🤩

[Planeraz]

😂 This dude seriously does not like Edinburgh or EDI!!! 🤩


He also blocks anyone who dares question failures at GLA.

[SealinkBF]

😂 This dude seriously does not like Edinburgh or EDI!!! 🤩

😜 From his feed there is clearly zero crime in Glesca'

[A350Saltire]

New route TIA-EDI from Wizz this December

[Planeraz]

New route TIA-EDI from Wizz this December


Wizz never cease to amaze. Always nice to hear of a new route. Hope it starts. First ever direct link with Albania from Scotland? Budapest due to re-start tomorrow at reduced 2 x weekly.

[ld0595]

Cool route. I've wanted to visit Tirana in recent years given it's relatively unexplored by tourists so I might well give this a try.

[nighthawk117]

Wifes been on about visiting Albania recently. She'll be pleased.

[laviation]

Ryanair will also add TIA from Winter 2023

[Planeraz]

Ryanair

Albania appears to be a hot market right now. Ryanair announce new route to Tirana from 31/10 - 2 x weekly. Pure coincidence or a tit for tat with Wizz? Starting more than a month before Wizz.

These new routes in a small way explain the increased W23 initial ACL slots requests. Not them all by a long way. Something else potentially ready to announce. I wonder what??

[tictack67]

Ryanair

Albania appears to be a hot market right now. Ryanair announce new route to Tirana from 31/10 - 2 x weekly. Pure coincidence or a tit for tat with Wizz?

They are operating on alternate days, Wizz Mon,Wed,Fri and FR on Tue and Sat. Wizz Morning flight and FR evening.

​​​​​​Last year nearly 7million visitors.

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/feb/24/albania-sets-its-sights-on-high-end-eco-tourism

[CabinCrewe]

Can’t see that lasting in pre-launch format. 5 times a week in total? I know which carrier Id bet on… Lets see…

[Planeraz]

Can’t see that lasting in pre-launch format. 5 times a week in total? I know which carrier Id bet on… Lets see…

Ryanair have also placed a caveat on booking system re the Tirana route. “Flights will operate subject to approval by the regulatory authorities”. Another obstical in the way for Albanians is the visitor visa required to enter the UK. Not as straightforward a process as it was formally. More conditions and requirements put in place recently by the UK Gov. Their policy of returning Albanians to home country is well documented!

[ATNotts]

Ryanair have also placed a caveat on booking system re the Tirana route. “Flights will operate subject to approval by the regulatory authorities”. Another obstical in the way for Albanians is the visitor visa required to enter the UK. Not as straightforward a process as it was formally. More conditions and requirements put in place recently by the UK Gov. Their policy of returning Albanians to home country is well documented!

The cynic in me is asking how many seats the UK government is block booking on these services!

[Planeraz]

Air Canada

AC first 789 service of season starts this evening. Inbound from Toronto is sold out in J with only a handful of seats available in economy and 1 in PE. Friday service is completely sold out. Saturday is very solidly booked. All three days on a 789.

Outbound is also very heavily booked. Friday, only a small number of seats available in Economy. Saturday is completely sold out.

Positive start to the season.

[tictack67]

Can’t see that lasting in pre-launch format. 5 times a week in total? I know which carrier Id bet on… Lets see…

Yes Cassandra, in answer to your question 5- FIVE times a week.

[edi_local]

The cynic in me is asking how many seats the UK government is block booking on these services!

I am wondering if this is the reason behind 2 sudden announcements of a direct route to Albania from Scotland...both launching in winter.

Of all the typical tourism destinations in the Balkans region, Albania is by far the least developed and connected and although it has ski resorts, I can't imagine many flock there.That said, I wish the routes well and hope this is the start of more expansion into the region from Scotland.

[CabinCrewe]

Yes Cassandra, in answer to your question 5- FIVE times a week.
Your learn-ed views resurface right in cue (can it get any easier?) Advise us on how you think this five times per week jamboree will pan out?

[Planeraz]

W23 ACL

W23 report published. Some interesting requests and noticeable increases compared to W22

Not all slots are actually used as we know but a busy W23 ahead.

Hainan - Slots requested throughout W23.
Emirates - Slots requested (if used) suggest a daily service.
Edelweiss - substantial increase in capacity.
Swiss - Slot request cancelled . Proposed new route to Geneva not going ahead.
BA - substantial increase in capacity compared to W22
Delta - increase in capacity, which suggest continuation of one of the seasonal routes or another new destination? I would guess ATL extended.
United - increase in capacity. Extension of one of the seasonal routes?
KLM - increase compared to W22
Wizz - substantial decrease compared to W22. One or two existing routes dropped?
Air Canada - increased. Already known extension to almost year round.
Qatar - increased. Already known increase to double daily, year round.
Eurowings - substantial increase compared to W22
Air France - small decrease.
Lufthansa - small increase.
Easyjet - substantial increase.
Ryanair - huge increase.
Atlantic Airways - increase.
Emerald (for Aer Lingus) - substantial increase.

[tartan 201]

The seat increases over the entire season for Delta and United are 308 and 2156 respectively. That does not indicate any current seasonal routes being extended. Indeed, we now know that the former will be providing less capacity this winter than last given the suspension of their JFK service in the first quarter of 2024.

[Planeraz]

The seat increases over the entire season for Delta and United are 308 and 2156 respectively. That does not indicate any current seasonal routes being extended. Indeed, we now know that the former will be providing less capacity this winter than last given the suspension of their JFK service in the first quarter of 2024.

My error re Delta. I stand corrected. I read wrong line.

[Sk1schoolsam]

The seat increases over the entire season for Delta and United are 308 and 2156 respectively. That does not indicate any current seasonal routes being extended. Indeed, we now know that the former will be providing less capacity this winter than last given the suspension of their JFK service in the first quarter of 2024.

Still disappointed about Delta cutting JFK completely in Q1 ‘24. I have 2 trips down under scheduled then that would have looked to use them again. I liked extra leg room Delta Econ + with Seat power etc, and Seat configuration on the 767. Hope they reinstate even just back to 3 or 5 weekly. Supposed by the total suspension.
Maybe EK will return by then….😉😉

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Perhaps the market for Scots going to Australia via JFK isn't their target demographic? Don't stress about seasonality, there's such a thing as overthinking.....!

[Planeraz]

Delta W23

Aeroroutes reporting updated W23 schedules and other information. EDI-JFK - previously reported as being suspended from 8th Jan to 9th Mar 2024. This update perhaps creates uncertainty for the route. Not clear if this means an extended suspension or something else. Bookings, as of today remain possible from Mar 2024. One to watch.


https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/230611-dlnw23inc


* It would appear suspension has been extended. Delta updating system. Appears to resume 30th March from JFK.

[Planeraz]

United

United using a high density J class 763 on this evening Washington to EDI service. A rare visitor to EDI and normally used on the premium LHR route.

[inOban]

Did a Delta 767 go tech yesterday? I notice that there's a second flight coming East, about to meet the regular Westbound plane off Ireland.

[Planeraz]

Did a Delta 767 go tech yesterday? I notice that there's a second flight coming East, about to meet the regular Westbound plane off Ireland.

Last night inbound from Atlanta is delayed by approx 2.5 hours. I assume this must be the 767 you referred to.

[Planeraz]

United

Aircraft upgrade. High density J class 763 also being used on Chicago service this evening. Booked full in both cabins. It would appear
UA routes are doing very well to EDI.

[ld0595]

United

Aircraft upgrade. High density J class 763 also being used on Chicago service this evening. Booked full in both cabins. It would appear
UA routes are doing very well to EDI.

I presume it must be down to be a shortage of 752's. Shannon to Chicago was also a high density J class 763 today.

[OltonPete]

United

Aircraft upgrade. High density J class 763 also being used on Chicago service this evening. Booked full in both cabins. It would appear
UA routes are doing very well to EDI.

Is this an upgrade or just replacing an unavailable 757?

Aircraft operating is 46/22/99 = 167 seats replacing a 757 16/153 = 169 seats. I suppose upgrade in as much as it is a wide-body (massive if they have all paid business and premium fares) but slight downgrade in terms of passenger numbers.

I suppose no reason why there wouldn't be a specific surge in business/premium bookings on any given day and if so, excellent if United have catered for this.

Pete

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

United Aircraft upgrade. High density J class 763 also being used on Chicago service this evening. Booked full in both cabins. It would appear UA routes are doing very well to EDI.

The Polaris B767-300ER is surely covering for the planned B757 and not really a planned up-guage. It's wildly premium heavy for inbound tourism to Scotland, the B757s are now quite tech prone sadly. It has three times the volume of Business Class seats vs. the B757. Unless they actually took 46 bookings for Polaris business, both classes being full just means top end economy fares got a free upgrade? Remember the B757 carries 176 vs. 167 on the Polaris B763. This is a fully booked B757 load?

[Sk1schoolsam]

Observation only - Todays Chicago flight was pretty much full. I think I had the only empty seat next to me in Economy Plus.👌 Full front and back. I noted a lot of folks with golf club’s checking in with United today.
IMO Not unreasonably to think there could be a healthy load of J Class wanting to come over and spend their $$$s 😄

[GeorgeNTravels]

W23 ACL

W23 report published. Some interesting requests and noticeable increases compared to W22

Not all slots are actually used as we know but a busy W23 ahead.

Hainan - Slots requested throughout W23.
Emirates - Slots requested (if used) suggest a daily service.
Edelweiss - substantial increase in capacity.
Swiss - Slot request cancelled . Proposed new route to Geneva not going ahead.
BA - substantial increase in capacity compared to W22
Delta - increase in capacity, which suggest continuation of one of the seasonal routes or another new destination? I would guess ATL extended.
United - increase in capacity. Extension of one of the seasonal routes?
KLM - increase compared to W22
Wizz - substantial decrease compared to W22. One or two existing routes dropped?
Air Canada - increased. Already known extension to almost year round.
Qatar - increased. Already known increase to double daily, year round.
Eurowings - substantial increase compared to W22
Air France - small decrease.
Lufthansa - small increase.
Easyjet - substantial increase.
Ryanair - huge increase.
Atlantic Airways - increase.
Emerald (for Aer Lingus) - substantial increase.

You have said Ryanair have a substantial increase but didn’t mention that it’s only Irish AOC that has an increase.

Ryanair (FR) gain an additional 223,221 seats, however, Ryanair UK (RK) lose 116,424 seats.

Plus Ryanair are cutting a noticeable amount of routes;

Bari, Billund, Marseille, Nantes, Palermo, Poitier, Santiago, Tallin & Verona are all cut.

[Planeraz]

You have said Ryanair have a substantial increase but didn’t mention that it’s only Irish AOC that has an increase.

Ryanair (FR) gain an additional 223,221 seats, however, Ryanair UK (RK) lose 116,424 seats.

Plus Ryanair are cutting a noticeable amount of routes;

Bari, Billund, Marseille, Nantes, Palermo, Poitier, Santiago, Tallin & Verona are all cut.

Simple arithmetic show a substantial increase for Ryanair - the airline. Have a great day!

[tartan 201]

You have said Ryanair have a substantial increase but didn’t mention that it’s only Irish AOC that has an increase.

Ryanair (FR) gain an additional 223,221 seats, however, Ryanair UK (RK) lose 116,424 seats.

Plus Ryanair are cutting a noticeable amount of routes;

Bari, Billund, Marseille, Nantes, Palermo, Poitier, Santiago, Tallin & Verona are all cut.

Bari and Poitiers didn't operate last winter so them not operating this coming winter isn't a 'cut'. BFS will operate daily this winter (didn't operate last winter) and STN will operate more frequently than last winter, so those changes alone will probably balance out most of the capacity lost by ceasing to serve the other destinations you list (some of which might return for S24 anyway).

[inOban]

And Tallinn didn't operate this summer either.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Bari and Poitiers didn't operate last winter so them not operating this coming winter isn't a 'cut'. BFS will operate daily this winter (didn't operate last winter) and STN will operate more frequently than last winter, so those changes alone will probably balance out most of the capacity lost by ceasing to serve the other destinations you list (some of which might return for S24 anyway).

they are shown in the coordination report as cut meaning at least 1 flight operated last season.

Should also point out that FR’s schedule from EDI this winter is sporadic with 11 aircraft needed Friday - Monday.

but only 4 aircraft required in Tuesday, 5 on Wednesday and 6 on Thursday.

With their only route that they have slots for but not announced being a 2x week service to Rovaniemi in Finland it’s challenging to understand how the ops department are going to run things this winter.

[tartan 201]

they are shown in the coordination report as cut meaning at least 1 flight operated last season.

Not sure it necessarily means that. The slot report doesn't list BRI or PIS as cancelled destinations for the upcoming winter season (see list below) and there's no entry for those destinations in the CAA data from November '22 to February '23 (inclusive), meaning that those two routes didn't operate in those months.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/575x494/screenshot_2023_06_13_19_05_41_98c9eac112845d6f69f034e2cf833 d3f6cfbbd3d.png

Should also point out that FR’s schedule from EDI this winter is sporadic with 11 aircraft needed Friday - Monday.

but only 4 aircraft required in Tuesday, 5 on Wednesday and 6 on Thursday.


Pretty sure they've had a similar pattern of low utilisation Tuesday to Thursday in previous years, especially in January and February.

With their only route that they have slots for but not announced being a 2x week service to Rovaniemi in Finland it’s challenging to understand how the ops department are going to run things this winter.

There was no mention in the slot report of Tirana, but it hasn't stopped them launching it with an EDI-based aircraft on Tuesdays and Saturdays for this coming winter. Presumably the 'ops department' will manage just fine to run things as they see fit.

[Planeraz]

Finnair

S24

Increasing to daily from current 4/5 x weekly.

credit Sean M

[Planeraz]

Etihad

A response below to a general question sent on Twitter about the chances of Etihad returning to Edinburgh. Some generic stuff for sure but could their be something more in this?



Hi there. Keep watching this space, you never know. Edinburgh is a destination many of our guests regularly talk about. We're currently working on adding new routes to our destinations and resuming some others! You can find out more about our destination and network via this link https://etihad.com/en-ae/travel-updates/our-network (https://t.co/9wa5Qhu23D). You can book your ticket on our website through this link http://bit.ly/ENNewBooking (https://t.co/UZ8G17yagk). Make sure you also check the journey requirements via this link https://bit.ly/TravelGuideEN (https://t.co/2RQfVuWpFj)

[ld0595]

Etihad

A response below to a general question sent on Twitter about the chances of Etihad returning to Edinburgh. Some generic stuff for sure but could their be something more in this?



Hi there. Keep watching this space, you never know. Edinburgh is a destination many of our guests regularly talk about. We're currently working on adding new routes to our destinations and resuming some others! You can find out more about our destination and network via this link https://etihad.com/en-ae/travel-updates/our-network (https://t.co/9wa5Qhu23D). You can book your ticket on our website through this link http://bit.ly/ENNewBooking (https://t.co/UZ8G17yagk). Make sure you also check the journey requirements via this link https://bit.ly/TravelGuideEN (https://t.co/2RQfVuWpFj)

I wouldn't look into it much. It's a very generic response and I've seen countless vague responses to similar questions from many airlines over the years.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

My favourite PR comms, one that rather broke my heart at the time, was United Airlines' full support for their GLA-IAD route which had just been tagged onto AMS, with fluff about code-sharing over CPH with partner BMA and their ongoing commitment to Scotland the literal day before the service was announced to be ending.
Social meeja execs don't have any insight until something is released from way higher up the chain.

[nighthawk117]

Always amazes me that people even bother to ask social media, let alone put any wieght to the response. The social media team is probably outsourced, even if it isnt, they'll be so removed from the network planning team that they just wont have a clue whats going on.

[VickersVicount]

its probably the same people who keep asking them about a rehash of the previously withdrawn Etihad route… Some may very well be posting here..

[laviation]

I do hope Wizz Air launch Abu Dhabi -> UK with their XLRs, this presents a great opportunity especially with their ever expanding eastern network .. cheap connections practically anywhere in Central Asia

[pabely]

I do hope Wizz Air launch Abu Dhabi -> UK with their XLRs, this presents a great opportunity especially with their ever expanding eastern network .. cheap connections practically anywhere in Central Asia
If it does happen it will be proved at LGW first before any consideration anywhere else in UK. LTN is always a proving ground for new routes but not sure a 321XLR fully fueled with 230 pax would get off the runway comfortably.

[inOban]

Finnair

S24

Increasing to daily from current 4/5 x weekly.

credit Sean M
This route must be being severely affected by the closure of Russian airspace to western airlines as I assume many of is pax were in transit to China or Japan

[A350Saltire]

its probably the same people who keep asking them about a rehash of the previously withdrawn Etihad route… Some may very well be posting here..

Agreed. Also those messaging airline’s repeatedly on Twitter complaining that they no longer serve their local airport. Embarrassing!

[tictack67]

This route must be being severely affected by the closure of Russian airspace to western airlines as I assume many of is pax were in transit to China or Japan

This is an increase in flights

[inOban]

But only back to pre-covid level. And it's often still in an Embraer rather than an Airbus.

[tictack67]

But only back to pre-covid level. And it's often still in an Embraer rather than an Airbus.

Three times this week it's been an Airbus, anyway your right a service back to pre covid levels on a daily service on a modern fleet is horrific news.

[inOban]

I'm delighted but don't overhype it. It's been one of the slower routes to recover.

[laviation]

The reason for the cancellation of yesterday’s JFK was a drunk Delta pilot !

[Delight]

Just noticed that Ryanair are starting Edinburgh to Tirana at the end of the year, but the journey times look odd. ~4.5 hours one way and ~2.5 the other. It is that likely to be stop somewhere?

[PinOnTheRight]

Just noticed that Ryanair are starting Edinburgh to Tirana at the end of the year, but the journey times look odd. ~4.5 hours one way and ~2.5 the other. It is that likely to be stop somewhere?
Likely should be 3.5 hours each way and some sort of discrepancy in the time zone setting for Tirana.

[jensdad]

Just noticed that Ryanair are starting Edinburgh to Tirana at the end of the year, but the journey times look odd. ~4.5 hours one way and ~2.5 the other. It is that likely to be stop somewhere?
I just checked that and yes, you're right. Could it be that the folks who put the times in the website don't know that Albania is only 1 hour ahead of UK time? The flight times (i.e dep. 1955, arr. 2120 for the flight I checked) look correct, but the flight durations (it says 2h35m) look wrong.

[Planeraz]

Qatar W23

QR appear to be making adjustment to operating equipment on certain days. 789 will operate both flights on T,Th & S instaead of previously announced 1 x 788 and 1 x 789. 773 also listed on certain dates in Sept. Presumably increased demand from students. All subject to further change.

[SealinkBF]

Pilot arrested, Delta flight at Edinburgh cancelled (travelmole.com) (https://www.travelmole.com/news/pilot-arrested-delta-flight-at-edinburgh-cancelled/)

[Planeraz]

Sunexpress

SeanM reporting large expansion to/from UK and Turkey in 2024 from SunExpress. One new route so far from EDI. Dalaman - 2 x weekly from April 2024. Antalya, currently is not bookable. Increase in frequency expected.

* Antalya increased to daily. Izmir retained compared to previous short summer 2023 operations. 2 x weekly in S24.

[Planeraz]

KLM - W23

Contrary to ACL report, KLM appear to have reduced frequency or seats in W23. Previously available to book 5 x daily is now reduced to 4 x daily. 2 of which is showing as being served by E190 or E195 aircraft.

AF W23

Air France have also reduced previously available to book 3 x daily to 2 x daily in W23.

Although things can change, disappointing to see what appears to be a sky team cut at EDI. Particularly when other UK airports such as NCL and MAN is reported to be line for increased activity.

[inOban]

?Both routes have EZY as well? Fewer transferring pax?

[Planeraz]

VS

Reported on other forums that the first EDI-MCO service of S23 went out with 382 on board. Virgin’s high density A351 seats 397.

[inOban]

Sunexpress

SeanM reporting large expansion to/from UK and Turkey in 2024 from SunExpress. One new route so far from EDI. Dalaman - 2 x weekly from April 2024. Antalya, currently is not bookable. Increase in frequency expected.

* Antalya increased to daily. Izmir retained compared to previous short summer 2023 operations. 2 x weekly in S24.
Am I right to assume that these drastic increases in holiday flights to Turkey (both Sun Express and Freebird) are to fill the accommodation left vacant by the missing Russians? And that they are mainly sold through specialist tour operators?

[Asturias56]

No - Turkey is currently overrun with Russian Tourists - instead of heading to W & C Europe and the Med (Spain especially) they're going south

And the collapsing Turkish currency make sit a bargain

Around 7 million Russians are expected to visit Türkiye this year, up from 5.5 million in 2022 as more flights are planned between the two countries. Some 171 flights from Russia to Türkiye will take place each day during this summer season, according to a report on ekonomim.com.

[VickersVicount]

VS

Reported on other forums that the first EDI-MCO service of S23 went out with 382 on board. Virgin’s high density A351 seats 397.
You'd hope so with schools breaking up this week and route previously being up to 3x 455 seat 747 per week.

[Planeraz]

April 23

Some pax numbers and approx LF’s for long haul routes.

April pax total - 1,198,258 (+29% on Apr 22)

TK - Istanbul 9673 or 92% (+36% on Apr 22)
QR - Doha 18,422 or 95% (+143% on Apr 22)
UA - Chicago 141 or 84%
UA - Newark 9,623 or 95% (+3% on Apr 22)
DL - New York JFK 10,297 or 96%

[GeorgeNTravels]

How can UA have a LF for Chicago if UA118 didn’t resume operations until 5th May?

[ROC10]

You'd hope so with schools breaking up this week and route previously being up to 3x 455 seat 747 per week.

Perhaps in some areas but lots of schools don’t break up until middle-end of next week.

[A350Saltire]

Perhaps in some areas but lots of schools don’t break up until middle-end of next week.

it’s just nice to see that A350 full. Having been on a VS A35K what a product it is.

[tartan 201]

How can UA have a LF for Chicago if UA118 didn’t resume operations until 5th May?

B763 N674UA UAL938 ORD-LHR diverted in on the 12th April. I suspect that's what's been picked up in the CAA data so you're right that whatever the load factor calculation is, it isn't a calculation for UA118.

[laviation]

I assume you mean ORD-LHR, because ORD-EWR-EDI is one heck of a diversion 😂

[tartan 201]

I assume you mean ORD-LHR, because ORD-EWR-EDI is one heck of a diversion 😂

I do indeed thanks and have corrected my typo.

[GeorgeNTravels]

B763 N674UA UAL938 ORD-LHR diverted in on the 12th April. I suspect that's what's been picked up in the CAA data so you're right that whatever the load factor calculation is, it isn't a calculation for UA118.

ah yes I remember now, thanks 🙂

[HH6702]

NCL-
doesn’t have any direct flights to the USA so maybe EDI is suffering with KLM/AF compared to NCL market.

also 2x QR won’t help either.
more direct flights you have then the less flights are needing for connecting pax




KLM - W23

Contrary to ACL report, KLM appear to have reduced frequency or seats in W23. Previously available to book 5 x daily is now reduced to 4 x daily. 2 of which is showing as being served by E190 or E195 aircraft.

AF W23

Air France have also reduced previously available to book 3 x daily to 2 x daily in W23.

Although things can change, disappointing to see what appears to be a sky team cut at EDI. Particularly when other UK airports such as NCL and MAN is reported to be line for increased activity.

[NotanAVGeek]

Was a bit of a struggle today it seems with the widebody aircraft. Delta had a 767 on Stand 12, The afternoon Qatar waited over an hour on a stand becoming available. This was also with the Air Canada and Delta BOS cancelled in & out or it could have got really messy.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

A B767 on 12 is manageable, no airbridge is not a huge calamity all things considered. Was the Qatar delayed due to other wide bodies or narrow bodies running late?

[NotanAVGeek]

A B767 on 12 is manageable, no airbridge is not a huge calamity all things considered. Was the Qatar delayed due to other wide bodies or narrow bodies running late?

Qatar was 30 mins early but ended up on stand over 30 mins late. Westjet was a little late and a Delta ATL ran over an hour late but doesn’t leave much room for flexibility.

[GoEDI]

Qatar was 30 mins early but ended up on stand over 30 mins late. Westjet was a little late and a Delta ATL ran over an hour late but doesn’t leave much room for flexibility.

Westjet was an hour late off blocks despite arriving pretty much on time. DL similar situation, arrived on time, turnaround was 30mins longer than planned. I'm not sure on the reasons for these ground delays, but they are happening quite a lot with those particular aircraft. QR regularly running 15-30mins early makes it worse. With advanced warning there are other options available to avoid the holding for QR, but you don't really get that with ground handling delays, so they really mess things up. It's happened a good few times now on the days Westjet operates, and QR can't be too happy with it.

[NotanAVGeek]

Most of the companies are short staffed so it’s difficult enough but when most of the flights are then off schedule it’s an impossible task.

Ground Handlers are trying to get the numbers in but they simply can’t because of the poor wages and working conditions, the lack of experience also a huge contributing factor. When the ground handlers have a good day, they are then delayed because of the assistance company, it’s not uncommon to see delays of nearly an hour waiting on the ambulift for an inbound passenger.

When all the widebody aircraft are in there is a lack of fuellers for everyone else, or the tankers get emptied so they need to make return trips through security posts to fill up, this resulting in delays.

Aircrafts arrive on a stand but have to stop boarding numerous times to allow inbound flights or inbound coaches to disembark. It’s difficult for the ground handlers so I’d expect a lot more of the same in the coming months. Will only get worse with Hainan rejoining the party.

It’s fantastic the industry & airport is thriving in terms of Airlines and routes, but the working conditions and pay for the staff are a shambles.

In hindsight, Covid was the time to improve infrastructure and the runway.

[SWBKCB]

So in short, people get what they pay for - reduce fares, and you lower the level of service.

[SWBKCB]

And EDI doesn't have underground fuelling points (sure there is a more technical term...) but is refuelling using tankers??

[GoEDI]

Most of the companies are short staffed so it’s difficult enough but when most of the flights are then off schedule it’s an impossible task.

Ground Handlers are trying to get the numbers in but they simply can’t because of the poor wages and working conditions, the lack of experience also a huge contributing factor. When the ground handlers have a good day, they are then delayed because of the assistance company, it’s not uncommon to see delays of nearly an hour waiting on the ambulift for an inbound passenger.

When all the widebody aircraft are in there is a lack of fuellers for everyone else, or the tankers get emptied so they need to make return trips through security posts to fill up, this resulting in delays.

Aircrafts arrive on a stand but have to stop boarding numerous times to allow inbound flights or inbound coaches to disembark. It’s difficult for the ground handlers so I’d expect a lot more of the same in the coming months. Will only get worse with Hainan rejoining the party.

It’s fantastic the industry & airport is thriving in terms of Airlines and routes, but the working conditions and pay for the staff are a shambles.

In hindsight, Covid was the time to improve infrastructure and the runway.

Yep the fueling situation is certainly challenging currently. Installation of a hydrant system would be a massive project that I can't see happening, so not sure what the solution is there if long haul traffic keeps growing.

Agree the runway absolutely should have been resurfaced during Covid as it was already a patchwork quilt then. That is going to be a logistical nightmare now in the next couple years.

[Sk1schoolsam]

Busy morning at EDI - great to see the Beijing flight and airport seams organised having departure board and announcements in Chinese.
Will be interesting to see the loads on this flight.

The A333 has been hogging Gate 18 but does not seam to have caused an issue today despite some TALA late arrivals today.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

With the Hainan A330 on a 5 1/2 hour turn, are they towing off stand?

[Sk1schoolsam]

With the Hainan A330 on a 5 1/2 hour turn, are they towing off stand?

I saw it on stand at 8:30 getting fuelled up and don’t believe it moved. Started to board just after 11 while I was still waiting for my delayed Lon City flight to start boarding.

[GoEDI]

Busy morning at EDI - great to see the Beijing flight and airport seams organised having departure board and announcements in Chinese.
Will be interesting to see the loads on this flight.

The A333 has been hogging Gate 18 but does not seam to have caused an issue today despite some TALA late arrivals today.

It did have to wait almost an hour to get on that stand this morning due to it landing majorly ahead of schedule...

I believe inbound load was very light, outbound was fairly busy though.

[Sk1schoolsam]

It did have to wait almost an hour to get on that stand this morning due to it landing majorly ahead of schedule...

I believe inbound load was very light, outbound was fairly busy though.

As an aside- There were some Businesses / Premium customers in the BA lounge - passes issued by their ground handling agent.

[Planeraz]

UA

United continue to do well to/from EDI. Other than a couple of J seats, all flights from the US this evening and all outbound from EDI tomorrow is booked full. The IAD service this evening is on a 763. Both EWR services last night were cancelled which possibly partly explains the full planes.

DL

Delta also doing well, particularly the ATL route. ATL-EDI booked full this evening. All the inbound services are close to sold out. The American tourists appear to be travelling in sizeable numbers.

VS

Today’s Orlando service went out completely full. 397 pax.

[Planeraz]

EDI - Infrastructure & projects.

Some interesting projects currently at design, development and delivery stage as detailed in latest EACC report. Large number of ongoing projects but a few of the major ones include:-

Terminal Expansion - phased project with a current value of 77m. Expected completion date - Jan 30. This figure is over and above projects such a security hall expansion and check in area etc. I wonder what the extension plan is?

Major runway rehab/upgrading. 24m cost and due to be completed Jan 26.

World Duty Free expansion and extension. 2m to be completed Jan 25. Also a second WDF store due to open Oct 23! Just what we need…

Security hall expansion. 18m due to be completed Jan 26.

US Pre-clearance. Current spend 170k. Development delivery date - Jan 24.

Pax figures for first three months of 2023 compared to 2022 - up 76.5%. International growth continues to trump domestic.

[Asturias56]

"World Duty Free expansion and extension. 2m to be completed Jan 25. Also a second WDF store due to open Oct 23! Just what we nee"

Well it makes clear wht the priorities are

probably another boost to the drop off charges as well.................

[SWBKCB]

How do you think these investments get paid for?

[inOban]

I can't see £77m buying much terminal expansion.

[VickersVicount]

I can't see £77m buying much terminal expansion.
nor £170K advancing Pre-Clearance. Suspect the US fees per year are more than that alone..

[Planeraz]

I can't see £77m buying much terminal expansion.

I agree. It sounds like another small add-on to the existing building. Separate walkways to immigration for arriving pax at Int Arrivals 2 perhaps. A couple of air bridges added to existing pier creating a couple of gates capable of taking wide-bodies. This sort of money won’t buy you a substantial terminal extension.

[Breathe]

"World Duty Free expansion and extension. 2m to be completed Jan 25. Also a second WDF store due to open Oct 23! Just what we nee"

Well it makes clear wht the priorities are

probably another boost to the drop off charges as well.................

Funny you should mention that. The drop off point has reopened today with the 10 min drop off charge increased from £4 to £5. The free drop off point is available at the long stay car park for 30 mins.Edinburgh Airport pick-up and drop-off zone price rises as it re-opens following £1.6 million transformationhttps://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/edinburgh-airport-pick-up-and-drop-off-zone-price-rises-as-it-re-opens-following-ps16-million-transformation-4201616

Edinburgh Airport’s controversial charged pick-up and drop-off zone will cost more from next month as its gets set to re-open to passengers this week following a £1.6 million project to transform the facility.

The zone has been upgraded with the whole ground floor of the multi-storey car park transformed to include a new one-way system spread across four lanes. Digital signage and new walkways, crossings and lighting have also been introduced. This will fully open to passengers on Friday, June 30, with the pick-up zone returning there after being temporarily located in the Terminal car park since January.

From Monday, July 17 the cost of using the facility for up to 10 minutes will be £5 – an increase of £1 on the current price. Airport bosses say this takes the charge in line with those in place at other Scottish airports. Discounts of 50 per cent for local residents and electric vehicle users will remain in place, with the free pick-up and drop-off area in the Long Stay Car Park also being retained to provide choice for passengers.

[Breathe]

I noticed on the report that one person has a lot of time on their hands to complain to the airport! :eek:


• Of the 232 complaints filed, 211 were made by 4 complainants.
• 126 of those were made by one complainant in Torphichen – 54% of the overall total for the quarter. No other complaints were received from this area.

The full report is available to read here:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/2hwzhse7szu0/76rB86KREp4qz6yvsADWJJ/65a2ff07d4e334f3967f1b048fb336f6/2023_Q1_EACC_report.pdf

[BA318]

I noticed on the report that one person has a lot of time on their hands to complain to the airport! :eek:



The full report is available to read here:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/2hwzhse7szu0/76rB86KREp4qz6yvsADWJJ/65a2ff07d4e334f3967f1b048fb336f6/2023_Q1_EACC_report.pdf

It’s almost always the case. At LCY it was a similar story with I think 7 people responsible for a high percentage of complaints.

[NotanAVGeek]

I’ve always thought it would be a good idea to build a walkway similar to that when you walk towards the SE Pier across from Gate 27/Stand 25 that goes across to the 26-34 stands. Build a few airbridges perhaps. Wouldn’t be great for reaching immigration but would bring those stands into use at peak times. Would massively improve the coaching situation first wave.

This week a few of the afternoon turnarounds have ended up on remote stands as they’ve run out of stands.

Fantastic to see things so busy especially after the pandemic but the overall passenger experience must be severely dented lately from EDI. I’d be interested to see the figures come the end of the year to see if EDI beat the 2019 passenger figures.

[NotanAVGeek]

Easyjet now only have A320s based. The last based A319 left earlier this week.

So even more capacity with 9 based aircraft and all A320s, not sure how many are Neo.

[GeorgeNTravels]

Easyjet now only have A320s based. The last based A319 left earlier this week.

So even more capacity with 9 based aircraft and all A320s, not sure how many are Neo.

I believe it’s 7 A320’s and 2 NEO’s

[Breathe]

Some good news hopefully coming soon.

New scanning technology coming to Edinburgh Airport

Business Insider - 5th July 2023 (https://www.insider.co.uk/news/new-scanning-technology-coming-edinburgh-30392552)

Edinburgh Airport has ordered eight new passenger check-in baggage scanners, which should eliminate the requirement to remove electronic devices, liquids and gels from hand luggage, allowing up to two litres of liquid to be carried onto a plane.

Smiths Detection’s HI-SCAN 6040 CTiX is a computed tomography (CT) X-ray scanner, which delivers quicker baggage assessment and low false-alarm rates of automatically identified threats. The machines provide a more detailed analysis of bag content, allowing security operators to easily spot items that shouldn’t be there.

Smiths Detection’s head of market Andy Evripides said: “The system provides higher levels of safety and security, leading to a significantly improved passenger experience by allowing them to pass through security with less hassle and the need to unpack and repack their hand luggage.

“It also uses the least energy of its type on the market, helping airports reach their sustainability goals.”

Adam Wilson, chief operating officer at Edinburgh Airport, said: “Providing passengers with a smooth and safe experience through security is incredibly important to us and the implementation of the new Smiths Detection HI-SCAN 6040 CTiX will deliver that as we adopt this new technology.

“Safety is always paramount and by moving forward with these innovative and next generation scanners, we will maintain those high security standards while helping passengers move through the airport quicker.”

Major airports have been given a deadline of mid-2024 by the UK Government to install CT scanners and Edinburgh Airport will follow a phased implementation of new technology during 2024.

Scotland’s busiest airport - with more than 11.3 million passengers in 2022 - noted that until then, passengers should continue to prepare for security as normal – no more than one litre worth of liquids, and any liquids being carried must be under 100ml, with all liquids fitting into one clear bag.

Laptops, tablets and large electricals must also still be removed from bags and placed into security trays.

[Planeraz]

EasyJet W23 - SeanM

New route from Nov. Winter seasonal. Hurghada - 2 x weekly.

Longest EasyJet flight from Edinburgh. 6+ hours I believe. Quite the long haul in a A320.

Rovaniemi - Finland. Winter seasonal from Dec. 2 x weekly.

[Asturias56]

"Quite the long haul in a A320."

My God - almost as long as a 707 transatlantic............. :eek:

[Planeraz]

"Quite the long haul in a A320."

My God - almost as long as a 707 transatlantic............. :eek:

Quite possibly a longer flight duration than an in-bound transatlantic flight from the US east coast.

A fully fuelled and pax loaded A320 would also be getting close to max reach?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Air Canada were going to use the MAX on YYZ-EDI I think?

[Asturias56]

Quite possibly a longer flight duration than an in-bound transatlantic flight from the US east coast.

A fully fuelled and pax loaded A320 would also be getting close to max reach?

not the ones I was on........................

[VickersVicount]

Air Canada were going to use the MAX on YYZ-EDI I think?
YYZ is longer.
HRG not much further than SSH. No biggy for (presumably) a Neo but not a pleasant trip on the ironing board seats for 2 weeks in baking sun. Think i’d prefer YYZ…

[Planeraz]

YYZ is longer.
HRG not much further than SSH. No biggy for (presumably) a Neo but not a pleasant trip on the ironing board seats for 2 weeks in baking sun. Think i’d prefer YYZ…

The extra leg room seats will be available at a premium price for this route…..

[VickersVicount]

..what a treat. First hour into flight ‘we have no further food to buy’

[Planeraz]

Summer 23

EDI was beyond chaotic today. I flew to LHR with BA. They were offering £300 to transfer on to the very last flight of the day as all the other flights were over-sold. An hour to get through security with all lanes open. All the trans atlantic flights appeared to be rammed too. Really good to see the Westjet flight completely full. As announced at the gate. The second UA from Newark sat remote for almost an hour for a gate. Stating the obvious that EDI at peak summer is struggling to cope. They don’t have enough gates to accommodate all the wide bodies. The previously reported phased £77m, completed by 2030 terminal extension surely can’t come quick enough. This amount of money also won’t buy much. There is clearly huge demand for travel but the airport, right now, isn’t able to cope.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I just realised that EDI vs. DUB is now at parity for both United and Delta, the non Oneworld US carriers.
UNITED EWR x 2 IAD ORD
DELTA BOS JFK ATL
Of course AA have 4 daily on top of the based Shamrock fleet but still I hadn't realsied this. Huge benefits having a flag carrier that can make money in your own market of course.

[nivsy]

Perhaps it's time BA looked at some direct transatlantic flights from EDI. Ha who am I kidding....London Airways doing that?! 🫣🤭

[pabely]

Summer 23

EDI was beyond chaotic today. I flew to LHR with BA. They were offering £300 to transfer on to the very last flight of the day as all the other flights were over-sold. An hour to get through security with all lanes open. All the trans atlantic flights appeared to be rammed too. Really good to see the Westjet flight completely full. As announced at the gate. The second UA from Newark sat remote for almost an hour for a gate. Stating the obvious that EDI at peak summer is struggling to cope. They don’t have enough gates to accommodate all the wide bodies. The previously reported phased £77m, completed by 2030 terminal extension surely can’t come quick enough. This amount of money also won’t buy much. There is clearly huge demand for travel but the airport, right now, isn’t able to cope.
At least EDI can expand without having it's potential hampered by short sightedness like one of Londons airports situated off the M1.

[Asturias56]

don't you mean the M4, or the M23?

[VickersVicount]

At least EDI can expand without having it's potential hampered by short sightedness like one of Londons airports situated off the M1.
I doubt it will be that clear cut… there are already pages of NIMBYs with complaints about noise, lining up for any such suggestion of expansion. As per usual will be approved after years of prolonged squabbling…

[nighthawk117]

Perhaps it's time BA looked at some direct transatlantic flights from EDI. Ha who am I kidding....London Airways doing that?! 🫣🤭

Not on their own metal, but AA will be back soon to pick up those that dont want to go via LHR.

Although it is interesting that BA brought the 787 up to Edinburgh prior to launch. I dont expect any long haul - but Im surprised they havent done more from Edinburgh with the CityFlyer fleet.

[ld0595]

Although it is interesting that BA brought the 787 up to Edinburgh prior to launch.

Wasn't that done for crew training purposes though? I recall them bringing it to Glasgow in 2016 as well.

[Planeraz]

Not on their own metal, but AA will be back soon to pick up those that dont want to go via LHR.

Although it is interesting that BA brought the 787 up to Edinburgh prior to launch. I dont expect any long haul - but Im surprised they havent done more from Edinburgh with the CityFlyer fleet.

Visit Scotland, businesses and EDI have been “networking” in the Dallas metroplex for the past few months. TV commercials from visit Scotland. I’m led to believe that a direct route with AA to/from DFW is under discussion. DFW is their mega hub with another terminal being constructed. Massive potential for additional growth.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/american-airlines-dfw-airport-restart-plans-for-terminal-f-billions-in-improvements/3258817/

[Sk1schoolsam]

Not on their own metal, but AA will be back soon to pick up those that dont want to go via LHR.

Although it is interesting that BA brought the 787 up to Edinburgh prior to launch. I dont expect any long haul - but Im surprised they havent done more from Edinburgh with the CityFlyer fleet.

IMO Don’t ever foresee London Airways (sorry British Airways) putting on TALA or long haul from EDI, MAN or GLA again unless code share on someone else’s metal. We don’t even have BA feeder flights to their LGW flights.

Will AA return with PHL or other next year??

Would be great if more Cityflyer destinations come in the future; although from experience when they run late on Sunday causes havoc with the LCY schedule on Monday am! (Min flight crew rest periods.)

[pabely]

don't you mean the M4, or the M23?
Those don't have a Max pax capacity rule. The one off the M1 does but theoretical could go to 21m with some terminal add-ins. It has recently had 4 more stands built, 3 more under construction and areas marked out for 7 more.

[tartan 201]

US route passenger numbers for June, with %age split US/non-US citizens:

ATL 12,601 88%/12%
BOS 11,156 82%/18%
ORD 9,966 87%/13%
JFK 11,782 72%/28%
EWR 17,046 71%/29%
MCO 1,460 17%/83%
IAD 9,740 84%/16%

Impressive first full month for the ATL service.

Same data for May:

ATL 2,566 90%/10%
BOS 8,479 87/%13%
ORD 7,956 83/%17%
JFK 13.062 79%/21%
EWR 11,262 67%/33%
IAD 7,980 83%/17%

​

[A350Saltire]

Great start for ATL long may it continue.

[Planeraz]

US route passenger numbers for June, with %age split US/non-US citizens:

ATL 12,601 88%/12%
BOS 11,156 82%/18%
ORD 9,966 87%/13%
JFK 11,782 72%/28%
EWR 17,046 71%/29%
MCO 1,460 17%/83%
IAD 9,740 84%/16%

Impressive first full month for the ATL service.

Same data for May:

ATL 2,566 90%/10%
BOS 8,479 87/%13%
ORD 7,956 83/%17%
JFK 13.062 79%/21%
EWR 11,262 67%/33%
IAD 7,980 83%/17%

​


Some impressive pax numbers. As highlighted in previous posts, the Atlanta route has performed very strongly. DL will surely start earlier in S24. Conditions and metal availability allowing, this must be a route EDI will target to turn into year round in some form. If pre clearance is secured at EDI, this must be one of the target routes to grow moving forward.

Some approx LF’s for June based on the totals shown above. N.B. United Newark and Washington routes did have a small number of cancellations in June.

Delta

ATL - 99%
JFK - 98%
BOS - 92%

United

EWR - 94%
ORD - 97%
IAD - 97%

Virgin

MCO - 76%

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Guys that's wildly US-centric, the exchange rate needs to favour the dollar for that to continue BUT it does mean lots of high spending US visitors for Scotland. Thanks for posting!
Might also explain MAN's relative struggle to get back the US majors and why Aer Lingus and Virgin are the operating carriers as they take the British stateside on holiday more?

[tartan 201]

Guys that's wildly US-centric, the exchange rate needs to favour the dollar for that to continue BUT it does mean lots of high spending US visitors for Scotland. Thanks for posting!

Thankfully, there's up to 330 million of 'em! The June data for the US carriers at DUB shows an almost identical split between US and non-US citizens as above for EDI. (Numbers below relate just to passengers carried by US-flagged carriers and so exclude, for example, EI and ET):

ATL: 19,732 87%/13% (daily DL A359)
BOS: 12,768 82%/18% (daily DL 763)
JFK: 11,997 76%/24% (daily DL 763)
EWR: 25,080 73%/27% (daily UA 777 and 757)
IAD: 12,002 80%/20% (daily UA 764)

Might also explain MAN's relative struggle to get back the US majors and why Aer Lingus and Virgin are the operating carriers as they take the British stateside on holiday more?

% US citizens / non-US citizens for June for MAN (all carriers):

ATL: 51%/49% (markedly more non-US than DUB or EDI)
IAH: 65%/35%
JFK: 75%/25% (similar to DUB and EDI)
MCO: 85%/15% (similar to EDI)

Some impressive pax numbers. As highlighted in previous posts, the Atlanta route has performed very strongly. DL will surely start earlier in S24. Conditions and metal availability allowing, this must be a route EDI will target to turn into year round in some form

ATL's currently on sale from 23rd May next year, which is around the same time it started this year. Given they chopped JFK for most of January to March next year, I can't see them attempting a year-round ATL (would be great if I was wrong) but I wonder if they may start it earlier.

[Planeraz]

ATL's currently on sale from 23rd May next year, which is around the same time it started this year. Given they chopped JFK for most of January to March next year, I can't see them attempting a year-round ATL (would be great if I was wrong) but I wonder if they may start it earlier.[/QUOTE]

Given that (for now) VS have MCO on sale from Apr 24, I’d be surprised if DL don’t re-start ATL earlier than S23. Another interesting thing to note is that, again for now, DL is using more premium heavy 763’s on all their routes next year. All destinations offer premium select or premium economy.

[VickersVicount]

I can’t recall if DL ATL was ever attempted year round when it last operated.
Current boom time US summer leisure bubble doesn't translate to year round route success, it never has done even at best of times. Just look at the numbers for stalwart NYC and DL’s decision to cut some of that.

[Breathe]

Pretty impressive numbers, especially from the restarted ATL route. As Skipness One Foxtrot mentions, I wonder how this will fair long term given the relatively low USD/GBP exchange rate. In the meantime, it's great to see these routes doing well.

[Downwind_Left]

Perhaps it's time BA looked at some direct transatlantic flights from EDI. Ha who am I kidding....London Airways doing that?! 🫣🤭

BA don’t have the right cost base, or appropriately configured aircraft, to make such a flight work. However the success of Aer Lingus UK in MAN have proven the model to IAG, and if the group saw merit in point to point trans Atlantic from EDI I’m sure that would be their chosen instrument.

Given that Aer Lingus are part of the Atlantic JV with American, BA, Finnair and Iberia, all the airlines share the revenues and bear their proportion of the costs… it doesn’t matter whether the aircraft is green or blue. Using the most appropriate equipment with the right configuration and cost base is the overriding factor.

[Sk1schoolsam]

DUB

ATL: 19,732 87%/13% (daily DL A359)
BOS: 12,768 82%/18% (daily DL 763)
JFK: 11,997 76%/24% (daily DL 763)
EWR: 25,080 73%/27% (daily UA 777 and 757)
IAD: 12,002 80%/20% (daily UA 764)



In comparison with smaller aircraft on the routes I think EDI is holding its own.
I wonder if UA and Delta will ever increase the aircraft size and capacity on EWR and ATL similar to DUB in 24?

[Flightrider]

Interesting numbers. The only point to make is that you can still lose money flying at 100% load factors if the yields are on the floor. I was led to believe that at least one of the above routes is not in a good place for that very reason.

[Breathe]

In comparison with smaller aircraft on the routes I think EDI is holding its own.
I wonder if UA and Delta will ever increase the aircraft size and capacity on EWR and ATL similar to DUB in 24?
A few more seasons of Outlander, a popular reception for the new Harry Potter TV series and who knows? If the Highlander reboot ever happens then they'll have to send an A380 over. :)

[tartan 201]

Interesting numbers. The only point to make is that you can still lose money flying at 100% load factors if the yields are on the floor. I was led to believe that at least one of the above routes is not in a good place for that very reason.

Presumably an airline wouldn't persist with such a route at EDI as it surely wouldn't be difficult for them to find something more profitable to do with that aircraft? As I type, everything that's operating this summer is on sale for next summer (MCO with a longer season) although a lot can change between now and then. This summer ATL went from five-weekly to daily before launch, a second daily EWR was added and a 764 was allocated to the weekend IAD flights. Those developments don't suggest that those routes are 'not in a good place', although without access to the figures one can only surmise things from the airlines' actions.

This (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-65637377) article quotes Gordon Dewar saying "One American airline said Edinburgh was the most profitable first year it ever had on a transatlantic route". It would be quite a contrast in fortunes for one route to perform at that level and another to be 'not in a good place' and with yields on the floor. In light of your comments it will be interesting to see if what's currently on sale for next summer actually operates.

[Flightrider]

I agree. It will be interesting. I suspect two routes from the above list won't be here next summer, but we'll simply have to wait and see.

There is also the not-insignificant issue that the facilities at Edinburgh are operating well beyond any reasoned assessment of their capacity - the place is beyond dreadful at the moment for everything ranging from security queues to baggage performance to handling agents. It simply cannot cope with the levels of traffic trying to be forced through the building. By rights, it should be a Level 3 slot coordinated airport with a proper capacity assessment, but the airport will no doubt fight that tooth and nail whilst they're trying to pump up the passenger flows to maximise shareholder value.

[tictack67]

Interesting numbers. The only point to make is that you can still lose money flying at 100% load factors if the yields are on the floor. I was led to believe that at least one of the above routes is not in a good place for that very reason.

who or what has led you to believe this?

Airlines are ruthless at cutting non profitable routes.

The idea an airline is using aircraft on a non yeild performing route in the height of summer, when it could be using them on more profitable routes, sorry you've been misled

[Flightrider]

If you have already got high passenger volumes booked but at low yields, the impact of cancelling mid-season makes the change not worthwhile as the cost of re-protecting those customers over other routes is high. You also can't switch capacity at such short notice to another route, as you don't have the sales lead time for that to take effect. So therefore, you tough it out until you have the opportunity to exit, perhaps when an initial support package of funding to support a new route either expires completely or becomes less attractive. It's not quite as immediate a process as you seem to suggest when you're in mid-season. For a short term period, you've made your bed and have to lay in it.

[tictack67]

If you have already got high passenger volumes booked but at low yields, the impact of cancelling mid-season makes the change not worthwhile as the cost of re-protecting those customers over other routes is high. You also can't switch capacity at such short notice to another route, as you don't have the sales lead time for that to take effect. So therefore, you tough it out until you have the opportunity to exit, perhaps when an initial support package of funding to support a new route either expires completely or becomes less attractive. It's not quite as immediate a process as you seem to suggest when you're in mid-season. For a short term period, you've made your bed and have to lay in it.

which route are you alluding to, can you mention?

i work in airline yeild management and that just doesn't happen and certainly not woth experienced operators like UA and DL.

​​Do you have any evidence of mega low fares on any US route out of Edi? one poster earlier even suggested UA/DL gave freebies and bribes to fill the flights, ridiculous.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

When GLA got PIK's transatlantic traffic, they operated facilities like a summer zoo from 1990 until 1995 with multiple wide bodies on the original international pier which is perfectly suited to A319 sized and below!
Saturdays had a 361 seat Worldways TriStar next to a NW DC-10, BA L1011 and AA B767 with Air Canada joining the mix later, with Air 2000 off to Orlando ALL alongside based Britannia etc. It was a wildly unsuitable facility for an extended period, and yet the very year they had it fixed with a new build pier was the year United threw in the towel and after NWA had left.
Bubbles burst, it's their nature. Be careful about wishing too much more into the mix in such a short period.

[Flightrider]

which route are you alluding to, can you mention?

i work in airline yeild management and that just doesn't happen and certainly not woth experienced operators like UA and DL.

My dear chap, I'd hope you could at least spell it if that was your full-time occupation!

Two routes on that list, neither of which are doing well - loadfactor is not an automatic sign of a successful route although generally it is a reasonable indicator.

I think you may find that external support for those routes is a key reason for them remaining in place for now.

[SWBKCB]

Gordon Dewar saying "One American airline said Edinburgh was the most profitable first year it ever had on a transatlantic route".

and nobody bats an eyelid at this comment from the airports chief salesman

[Flightrider]

...and he has much to sell!

[Planeraz]

In comparison with smaller aircraft on the routes I think EDI is holding its own.
I wonder if UA and Delta will ever increase the aircraft size and capacity on EWR and ATL similar to DUB in 24?

If DL were to grow the ATL route and “upgrade” the aircraft - capacity wise they do have a few options. The 763ER currently used on the route seats 226. A 764 seats 236 or 246 depending on version. A 772 seats 288 or 296. A 333 seats 293 and a 359 seats 293. A 764 would be a very modest capacity increase and they are expected to be retired in the near future. Would they send a 772? I have my doubts. An A333 would be the likely metal. I don’t see them using an A359 IMHO.

United currently use very old 752’s on the EWR route. Seating 169 or 176 depending on version. They are expected to be retired imminently, depending on delivery of other aircraft types. They also plan to retire the 763 and 764. They do have 321XLR on order and are expected to be the 752’s replacement on certain long haul routes. Production delays probably mean only a small number will be delivered in 2024. They are expected to seat up to 244 depending on config. As the pax figures show in S23 they aren’t too far off filling 2 x 752’s daily - up to 352 seats in peak summer. United also have a huge order for 788 and 789’s. Well documented delivery delays means only a small number will be delivered in the next year. Gas guzzling, expensive and increasingly unreliable 752’s give UA headaches. Their CEO recently acknowledged the problem. Their smaller capacity 788 seats 219. I don’t see them using two of them daily to EDI as they only have 12 in the fleet. Their 789’s seat up to 257 and they have 38. Given the production issues of the 321XLR, using a 789 - 1 x daily could be the outcome for S24.

[ld0595]

Does Edinburgh have the stand capacity for these larger aircraft though? I'm not too knowledgeable about aircraft codes bit surely a 752 takes up more room than a 789 and can use more stands?

[Planeraz]

Does Edinburgh have the stand capacity for these larger aircraft though? I'm not too knowledgeable about aircraft codes bit surely a 752 takes up more room than a 789 and can use more stands?

The answer, right now, during peak summer - no. It only takes a couple of delayed aircraft to create chaos. Sure they have remote stands but this then requires busses. EDI only have 6 in total. Twice a week a Hainan 333 occupies a wide-body stand for nearly 6 hours. Surely the aircraft can be towed to a remote stand to free up a gate?

[Sk1schoolsam]

Planeraz
Thanks for the reply

​​Delta - I know that they have sent a A333 in to EDI on the odd occasion in the past; so why would a 777 or A359 not be an upgrade option on ATL or JFK? 😉

United - Agree it’s difficult to match the current 752 capacity and frequency without either a significant drop or increase in capacity depending on the combination.
Perhaps throw in a 772 on EWR or IAD Or is that overkill?
This is based on the assumption that UA would want to grow the routes that have high load factors but use more efficient aircraft and make beefed yield.
Purely hypothetical of course.
However IMO I don’t foresee a huge recovery in Sterling against the Dollar any time soon given the nature of the UK economy and inflation vs that in the US.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Planeraz
Delta - I know that they have sent a A333 in to EDI on the odd occasion in the past; so why would a 777 or A359 not be an upgrade option on ATL
They don't have any B777s so that would be an issue. You'd see an A330 before an A350. Scotland is a leisure market seeing paid off aircraft ending their days with Delta and United. Now UA have 100 B787s coming so that's an option that I suspect we'll see but as the B757 leaves, the A321Ns might see consolidation in frequency?

[tartan 201]

I agree. It will be interesting. I suspect two routes from the above list won't be here next summer, but we'll simply have to wait and see.

So therefore, you tough it out until you have the opportunity to exit, perhaps when an initial support package of funding to support a new route either expires completely or becomes less attractive.

Two routes on that list, neither of which are doing well - loadfactor is not an automatic sign of a successful route although generally it is a reasonable indicator.

I think you may find that external support for those routes is a key reason for them remaining in place for now.

Of all the US routes listed, I would guess that only ATL, BOS and MCO are still receiving initial external support (BOS started in 2019 but didn't operate in 2020 and 2021). ATL would seem to be performing ok given they increased the frequency prior to launch. BOS operated five-weekly in S22 and they increased the frequency to daily this summer and extended the period of operation to the end of the summer season (finished in September last year).

[inOban]

I see that the first Newark flight is cancelled today. Gone tech? What do UA do with the PAX given that all the TA flights are virtually full?

[nivsy]

I see that the first Newark flight is cancelled today. Gone tech? What do UA do with the PAX given that all the TA flights are virtually full?
Are they all in a hotel? 🤔🤭....still waiting?

[VickersVicount]

I see that the first Newark flight is cancelled today. Gone tech? What do UA do with the PAX given that all the TA flights are virtually full?
With so many EDI UA cancellations, Im sure they’ll know what to do! There are still lots if seats across the various UA routes (none were/are full yesterday/today/tomorrow) and they can divert some via Star Alliance eg AC or LH. The rest will no doubt just wait. Not a pleasant experience again.

[NotanAVGeek]

Air Canada had to wait an hour for a stand this morning. The original planned stand had a tech KLM on it and although AC got switched to 4A and that stand was empty it had to wait until a BA Cityflyer departed Stand 5.

There also seems to be a large increase in lost baggage again, it really doesn’t create a good image for the Airport. Especially when people are starting to go to the newspapers and social media. Another ‘Inside Edinburgh Airport’ TV series would certainly make for interesting viewing.

[VickersVicount]

Another ‘Inside Edinburgh Airport’ TV series would certainly make for interesting viewing.
I doubt they’d be pushing for that given current issues and recent negative publicity…

[GoEDI]

The answer, right now, during peak summer - no. It only takes a couple of delayed aircraft to create chaos. Sure they have remote stands but this then requires busses. EDI only have 6 in total. Twice a week a Hainan 333 occupies a wide-body stand for nearly 6 hours. Surely the aircraft can be towed to a remote stand to free up a gate?

There are no code E (A330 size span) remote stands at EDI, so the answer to that is no. Things are maxed out but issues are being compounded by ground handlers unable to meet turnaround times due to lack of staff to match the volume of flights, and constant ATC slot delays into Europe, meaning aircraft are occupying stands longer than they should be. These issues are certainly not unique to EDI, look at what's going on at LGW for example... There's been a couple of years of huge capacity ramp ups, and delayed investments in capacity improvements industry wide off the back of Covid that has clearly been difficult to manage. Hopefully next year will be more stable.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's not beyond the wit of man to park an A330 across two remote stands down by the GAT surely? Or does fuselage length then come into play? Or is that lack of staff once again?

[Saabdriver1]

And EDI not without its own inbound ATC slot delays too.

[Planeraz]

May 23

Pax total for May was 1,289,223. Up 21% on May 2022.

Qatar performed strongly again as did TK and DL to JFK in particular.

Some approx LF’s.

Westjet

Calgary - 94%

United

Newark - 95%
Chicago - 94%
Washington - 94%

Delta

JFK - 98%
Boston - 96%

Turkish

Istanbul - 93%

Qatar

Doha - 96%