Manchester-3

[Navpi]

Re contamination of RW2

[QUOTE]At the time the excuse was wait for it, "oil dripping on the tarmac and causing contamination, "hang on, we are not talking, B707s, DC8s and Coronados", damn those " leaky old 787s and A380s", in terms of an excuse that did seem something of a stretch, maybe a reduction in rates is more plausible ? although quite why other airports didn't take that route is open to question./QUOTE]

The majority of RW 2 is Asphalt/Bitumen which as you probably know can soften and degrade if it comes into contact with solvents (Jet A1, Hydraulic fluid, Oil.)

I think keeping RW2 expensive surface in pristine condition is a good call.

Many thanks MAN777, for the record no i wasn't aware of that fact, but was arguing that again issues that seem highly specific to Manchester don't appear to be as prominent at
other airports.

Many UK airports utilised all available space during the full lockdown and presumably had a financial incentive to do that despite risk to taxiway surfaces. I accept that taxiways however may be of a different material and therefore that is indeed a different argument.

If Manchester has indeed gained substantial revenues in other ways without compromise that is actually to be applauded.

[42psi]

Man does indeed frequently use available space for aircraft parking (or even car parking :))

Aircraft have been parked on TWY Bravo (B5 next to stand 12), Engine test bay, TWY Alpha near the ETB, on some of the recently completed new sections not yet in use etc, etc.

​​​​​Then you have TWYs Quebec and NB which are routinely dual purpose TWYs or stands.

​​​​​​Unsurprisingly the decision/choice considers how long, need to access aircraft safely and ATC views etc, etc.

Like all these decisions the final choice is taken after stakeholders are consulted and safety impact assessed.
​​​​

[chaps1954]

Interesting diversion just arrived Air Taihiti B787

[BasilBush]

Interesting diversion just arrived Air Taihiti B787

Squawking 7700

[seahawks]

Medical emergency, crew member, hope ok.

[HOVIS]

Aer Lingus 320 last night too.
Blimey, two diversions in as many days. The whinging must be getting through. 😁

[Suzeman]

I imagine Ozzy, roverman and Suzeman have at least 75 years of experience between them in various capacities at MAN,

Nearer 100 I reckon. But that was then and this is now

My own concern would be that if there is a financial incentive to keep a runway closed (beyond direct operational savings), this could delay reinstatement beyond the optimum point of reopening. But hopefully that issue won't arise.


With a quick look at the ACL scheduling parameters for Summer 2022, you would know that two runway operation will be back for the season

https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/MAN-Capacity-Declaration-S22.pdf

And NO, I have no "beef" with the MAG management team. I actually know a few and have a great deal of respect for them as individuals. But that doesn't mean I won't challenge specific corporate policies which I feel are not in the best interests of the airport operation. It is a very healthy thing for companies to be challenged to reassess certain assumptions where better outcomes might result. A good manager will always welcome constructive criticism.


But do you tell them directly rather than just expressing your views on here?

Man does indeed frequently use available space for aircraft parking (or even car parking https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif)

Aircraft have been parked on TWY Bravo (B5 next to stand 12), Engine test bay, TWY Alpha near the ETB, on some of the recently completed new sections not yet in use etc, etc.

​​​​​Then you have TWYs Quebec and NB which are routinely dual purpose TWYs or stands.

​​​​​​Unsurprisingly the decision/choice considers how long, need to access aircraft safely and ATC views etc, etc.

Like all these decisions the final choice is taken after stakeholders are consulted and safety impact assessed.

Absolutely 42psi. Particularly this bit the final choice is taken after stakeholders are consulted and safety impact assessed.
Perhaps Navpi forgets the whole VS 747 fleet and some VS Airbus types scattered all over the airfield, plus a few extra EZY and not to mention all the large fleets of based aircraft (Ryanair, Jet 2, EZY, TUI etc) parked up H24 because they weren't being used? Plus some Tommy Cook and Flybe if I recall, at least during the first lockdown?

[SCFC1EP]

Air Tahiti still on the ground at 2030hrs

Various reports had 1500hrs 1645hrs 1830hrs departure and still on ground

Visited airport at 1630hrs and aircraft was side off old thomas cook hanger, with no steps at aircraft and doors closed

Do hope that the passengers have been allowed off and hopefully gone to hotel for the night,

If it;s a member of crew presume taken off flight that it can not depart until replacement crew arrive, and presume not many Air Tahiti staff nearby with CDG or LAX being the closest possible

[ara01jbb]

F-OVAA departed MAN around 21.45 but is now circling over Norfolk. Seen on FR24.

[Curious Pax]

Air Tahiti still on the ground at 2030hrs

Various reports had 1500hrs 1645hrs 1830hrs departure and still on ground

Visited airport at 1630hrs and aircraft was side off old thomas cook hanger, with no steps at aircraft and doors closed

Do hope that the passengers have been allowed off and hopefully gone to hotel for the night,

If it;s a member of crew presume taken off flight that it can not depart until replacement crew arrive, and presume not many Air Tahiti staff nearby with CDG or LAX being the closest possible

Finally departed 2143, and now orbiting over Norfolk. At a guess burning off fuel in order to avoid a second overweight landing in one day before completing the return to Paris. I’m assuming that landing a 787 just over an hour into a 10 hour+ flight would be overweight if any 787-knowledgeable folks could shed any light? Long day for the pax to end up back where they started if that is what’s happened to them!

[BA318]

Finally departed 2143, and now orbiting over Norfolk. At a guess burning off fuel in order to avoid a second overweight landing in one day before completing the return to Paris. I’m assuming that landing a 787 just over an hour into a 10 hour+ flight would be overweight if any 787-knowledgeable folks could shed any light? Long day for the pax to end up back where they started if that is what’s happened to them!

Apparently a crew member sadly passed away but this isn’t verified.

[BA318]

Looks like it is now diverting to Birmingham. It left CDG at 10:30 this morning, diverted to MAN due to the crew fatality and now diverting to Birmingham. That’s a long day for passengers and crew alike.

[daz211]

Looks like it is now diverting to Birmingham. It left CDG at 10:30 this morning, diverted to MAN due to the crew fatality and now diverting to Birmingham. That’s a long day for passengers and crew alike.
I really can’t understand what’s going on with this flight, obviously the earlier divert was under very sad circumstances but I really can’t figure it out after that, are the passengers even back onboard, why is it now heading to BHX.

[BA318]

I really can’t understand what’s going on with this flight, obviously the earlier divert was under very sad circumstances but I really can’t figure it out after that, are the passengers even back onboard, why is it now heading to BHX.

Now gaining altitude again and heading south away from BHX. Perhaps they will go to CDG after all.

A passenger tweeted that they had received no food or drink after 4hrs on the ground in Manchester.

[daz211]

Now gaining altitude again and heading south away from BHX. Perhaps they will go to CDG after all.

A passenger tweeted that they had received no food or drink after 4hrs on the ground in Manchester.
Surly it would have made more sense to Hotel the passengers at Manchester overnight and fly crew in from CDG, The poor passenger will be exhausted by time they get to CDG and then put in a hotel, they won’t get in a room until we’ll after 0200hrs, I just find it odd.

[Navpi]

Nearer 100 I reckon. But that was then and this is now



With a quick look at the ACL scheduling parameters for Summer 2022, you would know that two runway operation will be back for the season

https://www.acl-uk.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/MAN-Capacity-Declaration-S22.pdf



But do you tell them directly rather than just expressing your views on here?



Absolutely 42psi. Particularly this bit .
Perhaps Navpi forgets the whole VS 747 fleet and some VS Airbus types scattered all over the airfield, plus a few extra EZY and not to mention all the large fleets of based aircraft (Ryanair, Jet 2, EZY, TUI etc) parked up H24 because they weren't being used? Plus some Tommy Cook and Flybe if I recall, at least during the first lockdown?

Despite all our advancing years, my own memory so far at least is absolutely fine, but by way of balance i was referencing the 2 miles of real estate "stretching out toward Mobberley." I did actually make that abundantly clear and funnily enough, "from memory" used that same narrative to describe its possible utilisation, (or not as was the case).

In terms of todays events extremely sad if unconfirmed reports are indeed true, whilst recognising the discomfort of fellow passengers in extraordinary circumstances, perhaps for today at least those complaints are secondary.

[MANworker]

Air Tahiti still on the ground at 2030hrs

Various reports had 1500hrs 1645hrs 1830hrs departure and still on ground

Visited airport at 1630hrs and aircraft was side off old thomas cook hanger, with no steps at aircraft and doors closed

Do hope that the passengers have been allowed off and hopefully gone to hotel for the night,

If it;s a member of crew presume taken off flight that it can not depart until replacement crew arrive, and presume not many Air Tahiti staff nearby with CDG or LAX being the closest possible

Not sure where you think no steps were on the aircraft at 1630, but I can assure you there was until it was ready to depart, either that or I’m a lot taller than I thought. Crew was still above minimum even with the ill crew member off the aircraft.

[SWBKCB]

Unbelievable

[BA318]

Surly it would have made more sense to Hotel the passengers at Manchester overnight and fly crew in from CDG, The poor passenger will be exhausted by time they get to CDG and then put in a hotel, they won’t get in a room until we’ll after 0200hrs, I just find it odd.

There are all sorts of problems though. The pax don’t have PLF or compliance with UK regulations/visa requirements for some. Apparently it was heading back to CDG, then had a tech issue, requested to go back to MAN a second time but they said no they only accept medical divert so then seems to be going to CDG at 9000ft.

[Airbanda]

There are all sorts of problems though. The pax don’t have PLF or compliance with UK regulations/visa requirements for some. Apparently it was heading back to CDG, then had a tech issue, requested to go back to MAN a second time but they said no they only accept medical divert so then seems to be going to CDG at 9000ft.

And now holding again @ FL90 in Dieppe area. At most optimistic it's going to be after 04:00 local before pax are in hotels

[pabely]

F-OVAA departed MAN around 21.45 but is now circling over Norfolk. Seen on FR24.

And now South of the Hold at Dieppe at FL90 around the Rouen area. CDG runways must be as long if not longer than MAN so does it really need to burn more fuel off?
Probably paperwork now wrong as the flight has been spoilt with touching UK soil. Choice words with Ops & handling agent no doubt going on.

[OzzyOzBorn]

QUOTE: With a quick look at the ACL scheduling parameters for Summer 2022, you would know that two runway operation will be back for the season

Yes, I have seen the ACL report. And I know that is the plan.

But as you know, proposed schedules evolve significantly between January and start-of-summer even in a normal year. What few foresaw this time was that the UK and mainstream destinations on the Continent would reimpose strict covid-rules on travel which are likely to serve as a major drag on confidence during the January to March peak booking period for S22 leisure travel. If bookings come in at a substantially depressed pace over the next ten weeks or so, operators will have to make crucial strategic decisions concerning how much unsold capacity they're prepared to carry into the season - hoping for late bookings which may never come. For some operators, making the right call on this may be a matter of corporate survival.

And it is not just the leisure-focused operators we need to worry about. If business and long-haul travel come back more slowly than hoped, we will see reductions in planned frequencies on these routes too.

I'm sure most here hope that bookings for S22 flow in at a healthy pace, but I'm far from convinced that will happen. I personally know lots of people who are booking nothing yet, awaiting more clarity. If we enter a period of major consolidation, airports including MAN will need to reconsider how much demand they need to cater for in the months ahead. Plans may have to be changed. I hope not, but we'd be foolish to dismiss the possibility.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

They're not closing the second runway in the medium term. It's not being mothballed. It's not ideal for parking as if you need the aircraft in the middle it's a nightmare to get to it as you have to move everyone else to tow it clear. Runway 2 is not blessed with exits the full length which I suspect would help. There's enough to worry about without actively looking for drama.

[OzzyOzBorn]

They're not closing the second runway in the medium term. It's not being mothballed.

Actually, the second runway is closed now and has been for many months. The question is when does it reopen. The plan for that is start of season S22, but that was based on very optimistic scheduling put in place before assorted governments threw travel barriers back up. You won't be surprised to learn that I hope it will reopen then, as planned. But I don't think we can safely presume anything at this stage. We need to see the effect covid uncertainty has on air travel bookings. And it would be very helpful to see the worst restrictions (especially expensive C-19 testing) dropped in the near term. There are some hopeful developments on this, with HMG withdrawing the need for pre-departure tests, and Germany ending its ban on UK travellers. But we still have a long way to go.

[Navpi]

They're not closing the second runway in the medium term. It's not being mothballed. It's not ideal for parking as if you need the aircraft in the middle it's a nightmare to get to it as you have to move everyone else to tow it clear. Runway 2 is not blessed with exits the full length which I suspect would help. There's enough to worry about without actively looking for drama.

Just to be clear I'm absolutely not advocating the use of RW2 now in any other capacity than the actual use for which it was intended.

For clarity my point was a missed opportunity and it's possible utilisation for parking 18 months ago, this was at a time when the aviation industry and air travel was absolutely paralysed and there was a need to absolutely maximise revenues as indeed other airports did.

Many airports had units double parked in a manner not suited to day to day operations but at the time nothing was flying !

[Navpi]

There are all sorts of problems though. The pax don’t have PLF or compliance with UK regulations/visa requirements for some. Apparently it was heading back to CDG, then had a tech issue, requested to go back to MAN a second time but they said no they only accept medical divert so then seems to be going to CDG at 9000ft.

Whilst i appreciate I'm no fan of the blanket NO DIV policy i cannot believe given the circumstances that Man would not have allowed this back in had the crew requested this.

A tech issue could soon become an emergency so i think its safe to assume even MAN would not have been so robust in it's implementation.

I assumed it headed East to a quieter area of airspace to dump fuel for a lighter landing at CDG , a descent to 9000ft and subsequent holding would however suggest pressurisation issues.

Looking at the timing of posts here it was nigh on a 3 hour transit so not great for the passengers.

[chaps1954]

Just a point , even when aircraft are stored they still have to move to stop breaks sticking, tyres getting out of shape and as you probably noticed over last couple of years aircraft were
flown on circuits quite regularly by Jet2,TUI, Easy and Virgin so need to parked where they could be got at even the TUI MAXs moved and had the engines started
Runway 23L has been used when maintenance was done on 23R and in a few emergency situations.

[Navpi]

Just a point , even when aircraft are stored they still have to move to stop breaks sticking, tyres getting out of shape and as you probably noticed over last couple of years aircraft were
flown on circuits quite regularly by Jet2,TUI, Easy and Virgin so need to parked where they could be got at even the TUI MAXs moved and had the engines started
Runway 23L has been used when maintenance was done on 23R and in a few emergency situations.

chaps1954 agreed although i genuinely don't know how smaller airports managed.

Apart from an opportunity to generate income i genuinely don't know how airports with a fraction of the infastructure handled this.


https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/18343840.bournemouth-airport-unprecedented-amount-planes-parked/

Footnote the crew member involved in yesterdays incident is safe and in hospital, so great news on that score.

[AndrewH52]

Bournemouth used its two disused runways and associated taxiways for storage.

[chaps1954]

Navpi You would not believe how little space is actually available. Most nights involve night parking for 80+ resident aircraft and night stopping.

[DP.]

You would not believe how little space is actually available.

I concur. The critical comments about the NO DIV policy pre-dating the pandemic are a little disingenuous. As I recall, that really came into being during the TP, when there was significant constraints on both stands and taxiways due WIP. There was fairly substantial airfield reconfiguration work planned additional to what has already been completed, but of course we don't know when that may now come to pass. When Pier 2 is constructed, that is almost certainly going to create another logistical challenge around stand availability.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Those pointing out the number of based aircraft which park overnight are missing the point. The 'no div' discussion is not about accepting all diversion requests at all times, regardless of existing business. It is about operating a flexible DYNAMIC diversion policy (as most other airports do). That allows complete discretion to turn away likely nightstoppers, or anything else which is an identified problem, whilst accepting diversions which can be accommodated at quieter times. And there ARE quiet times across the course of the day. Also, the blunt 'no divs' policy by default excludes the likes of executive jets which tend not to impact main apron availability at all. This is why decisions on a case-by-case basis is called for. Not every diversion is a widebody with a crew going out of hours.

Rest assured that those who put the case for a dynamic diversion policy are well aware of overnight apron usage volumes.

[MANFOD]

I concur. The critical comments about the NO DIV policy pre-dating the pandemic are a little disingenuous. As I recall, that really came into being during the TP, when there was significant constraints on both stands and taxiways due WIP.

That's not correct. I think it was the winter of 2009/10 that I first recall seeing the notam at a time when there was quite a bit of snow around the country. Even when our own runways and taxiways had been cleared, MAN's reputation as the airport that likes to say No, if it was already established, was enhanced. An airport manager acknowledged there had been criticism and that things had not been handled as well as they might. To be fair, the approach the following winter was much more positive. It was the year when LHR was shut for nearly 4 days after 4" of snow and ice, and MAN accepted quite a few wide-body diversions from LHR and LGW as soon those airports first closed. There were more in the days following but one or two carriers actually re-flight planned to MAN when LHR was still closed - CX was one such airline.

The notam has appeared fairly regularly since then for varying periods before the pandemic.

[SWBKCB]

Not every diversion is a widebody with a crew going out of hours.

No - but there is always that risk. I would imagine that whether it's Ad hoc freighters or diversions the issue is predictabilty, and we all know that these flights have a greater tendency not to go to plan. MAN does take extra flights - football flights for example - but there is a higher liklihood of them coming and going when you expect them to.

[DP.]

That's not correct. I think it was the winter of 2009/10 that I first recall seeing the notam at a time when there was quite a bit of snow around the country. Even when our own runways and taxiways had been cleared, MAN's reputation as the airport that likes to say No, if it was already established, was enhanced. An airport manager acknowledged there had been criticism and that things had not been handled as well as they might. To be fair, the approach the following winter was much more positive. It was the year when LHR was shut for nearly 4 days after 4" of snow and ice, and MAN accepted quite a few wide-body diversions from LHR and LGW as soon those airports first closed. There were more in the days following but one or two carriers actually re-flight planned to MAN when LHR was still closed - CX was one such airline.

The notam has appeared fairly regularly since then for varying periods before the pandemic.

That's a fair point. I didn't mean to suggest that it had never happened previously, but it certainly became more of a 'standing item' following the commencement of the TP works.

[OzzyOzBorn]

No - but there is always that risk.

But that's just it. There isn't always that risk. In some cases, the risk of the aircraft compromising the airport operation is negligible. One recent example being a Jet2 B738 which departed on a positioning flight MAN-LBA, couldn't get in, and was denied approval to return to MAN based upon the 'no divs' notam. It is quite likely that this particular aircraft would have found an available stand anyway, but even if not, Jet2 have their own hangar compound at MAN where a surplus aircraft could wait out congestion. And a diverted Citation poses little risk of stitching up the airport. Every diversion request comes with its own profile, and in many cases they present negligible risk to the smooth operation of the airport. Retaining the flexibility to approve these is logical. If a request comes in from a widebody which risks compromising the operation comes in, that is the time to say no. No need to give the same answer to everything else by default.

Football charters are a quite different conversation. They are known traffic for between three weeks and two months ahead (dependent on when the match draw is made). Their timings are based on a reliable schedule (extra-time at the stadium notwithstanding). They're included in the main stand-allocation and staffing plan well ahead of time. Like charters for a business conference or an exhibition, they're a known quantity and don't require a last-minute decision.

[AndrewH52]

It was a Ryanair flight, not Jet2.

[Curious Pax]

But that's just it. There isn't always that risk. In some cases, the risk of the aircraft compromising the airport operation is negligible. One recent example being a Jet2 B738 which departed on a positioning flight MAN-LBA, couldn't get in, and was denied approval to return to MAN based upon the 'no divs' notam. It is quite likely that this particular aircraft would have found an available stand anyway, but even if not, Jet2 have their own hangar compound at MAN where a surplus aircraft could wait out congestion. And a diverted Citation poses little risk of stitching up the airport. Every diversion request comes with its own profile, and in many cases they present negligible risk to the smooth operation of the airport. Retaining the flexibility to approve these is logical. If a request comes in from a widebody which risks compromising the operation comes in, that is the time to say no. No need to give the same answer to everything else by default.


Perhaps you should be thinking of it from the aircrew’s perspective. You look at the Notams before leaving origin when heading for (say) Heathrow, and as MAN looks to have decent weather forecast you decide that that looks good for an alternate, and duly pop it into your planning in case of need. Heathrow turns out to be unavailable as you get in the vicinity, so you advise ATC and your ops that you’re going to your planned alternative, MAN. Ops give a handling agent at MAN a call to advise of an impending arrival, only to be told that diversion acceptance policy is now flexible, and because you are judged to be a risk of an unplanned night stop you can’t be accepted. Cue much gnashing and wailing from crew and airline ops, and some hasty replanning of a diversion point, adding unnecessary stress and workload when the level will already be higher than normal.

I’m clearly not aircrew, but it would be interesting to hear from those who are if the certainty of a “no divs unless an emergency” policy is preferable to the roulette of “we may take you we may not, we’ll see at the time”.

As an aside, Navpi’s cockles will be warmed when he hears that a Virgin 350 is reportedly planned in tomorrow for parking. I suspect not on R2, but you never know!

[chaps1954]

A350 not an aircraft swap for the A350 we have on New York at present?

[OzzyOzBorn]

Curious Pax - The problem with your scenario is that it presumes similar circumstances for every aircraft in the system which needs to divert. Your Heathrow-bound widebody represents a quite different proposition from a LBA-bound B738 or a BLK-bound C56X. The notion of a smooth-functioning one-size-fits-all policy does not apply. You need bespoke solutions. You need dynamic case-by-case decision making.

Let's remember too that the era of mass diversions away from the London TMA airports due to fog is very much yesterday's problem. Technology advances have taken care of that for the majority of contemporary commercial airliners. And advances in flow control keep many short-haul flights on the ground at point of origin to calm traffic flows if they're planned into a fogbound destination airport. These days, a diversion is far more likely to take the form of an E190 which can't take the crosswind at LBA, an executive jet which can't get into a smaller airfield, an aircraft burning through its reserve fuel as it awaits a runway reopening following an incident (previous landing aircraft birdstrike, tyre-burst, etc.), or perhaps a technical diversion. Diversions take many forms.

Now let me offer another perspective. You are on an approach radar position and you have six additional aircraft which should have been out of the way on the ground by now, but which are instead in the hold awaiting weather improvement or diversion. You also have other traffic which would have been in the system anyway, so you're much busier than usual. And any aircraft which needs a diversion / reroute requires lots of additional coordination, because it is deviating from its original flight plan. If three of the holding aircraft are C56X's and the other three are B77W's, you will be very grateful if a nearby airport agrees to accept the C56X's, as in a radar environment each of those smaller types represents the same workload as a B77W. In that situation, you really want the largest airport in your area to pull its weight and pitch in. Manchester, almost uniquely, routinely declines to do that. MAN is notorious across Europe as the most frequent offender in this respect: "The airport that likes to say NO".

Yes, the aircrew perspective is important. But so is that of ATC, ground staff and everybody else. It has to be a team effort. It is so easy to take account of the protestations of one cog in the system alone. We also need to be mindful of safety considerations in flight, as well as those affecting operational convenience on the ground.

[HOVIS]

MAN received two diversions this week. Both emergencies, one medical, one technical. The tech aircraft I believe is still there, blocking a remote stand and no doubt giving the maintenance guys a headache. That's the trouble with diversions, you really don't know what you're getting yourself into. A quick splash and dash or a longer protracted stay. At some point they will all need fuel (usually) some sort of tech clearance, maybe spare parts from abroad so customs clearance, a tug and crew, dispatcher, maybe even loaders and cargo handlers. Hotac possibly for crew or/and passengers.
All these are problematic especially at a time of staff shortages. I heard the other day that Swissport are paying £30/hour overtime rates just to get people to work extra hours!
Your 'dynamic' solution at the moment is dead in the water.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Your 'dynamic' solution at the moment is dead in the water.

It certainly does seem to be at MAN. But not at just about every other airport. And aircraft require all the same support services you mention at those. Everywhere else seems to be coping fine, and I don't think their staff are more handsomely remunerated than their Manchester counterparts.

MAN is uniquely FAILING in this respect, and that is a matter for concern. Repeated failure is unacceptable and should be addressed by management. But I see no urgency from MAG to address those areas of the operation which undermine the good work done by other departments at MAN. Reputation is always driven by those areas of the business which let the side down.

BTW, the 'tech' aircraft which you cite is exempt from any dynamic diversion decision-making process. A flight which declares an emergency CAN land. That's the rule. So the question of whether the airport operator would want to accept it or not is moot. And, of course, an aircraft which diverts in with a technical problem runs the risk of sticking around for a while. That's what 'tech' implies. If a non-emergency aircraft wishes to divert for technical reasons, that can be taken into consideration when a decision is made.

[HOVIS]

It certainly does seem to be at MAN. But not at just about every other airport. And aircraft require all the same support services you mention at those. Everywhere else seems to be coping fine, and I don't think their staff are more handsomely remunerated than their Manchester counterparts.

MAN is uniquely FAILING in this respect, and that is a matter for concern. Repeated failure is unacceptable and should be addressed by management. But I see no urgency from MAG to address those areas of the operation which undermine the good work done by other departments at MAN. Reputation is always driven by those areas of the business which let the side down.

BTW, the 'tech' aircraft which you cite is exempt from any dynamic diversion decision-making process. A flight which declares an emergency CAN land. That's the rule. So the question of whether the airport operator would want to accept it or not is moot. And, of course, an aircraft which diverts in with a technical problem runs the risk of sticking around for a while. That's what 'tech' implies. If a non-emergency aircraft wishes to divert for technical reasons, that can be taken into consideration when a decision is made.

Yes, I'm well aware of the definition of 'tech'.

Perhaps the reason other airports are not in the same position as MAN could be down to many factors. EG. What are the employment opportunities outside the airport? I do know of several people who have left airport work to pursue careers elsewhere. Reasons given, better pay, t&cs, not having to get up at 3AM to work double shifts.
This is not MAG's fault. Point the finger instead at the low cost airlines who insist on paying peanuts and demanding the Earth. (Jet2 saw what was happening and took everything in house, a very good move IMO). But the knock on effect is plain to see.

[MANFOD]

The "No divs" notam expires at midnight tonight. Let's see if it's renewed. Any bets??

MAN has surprised at times, like the morning a few years ago when 3 x A380s diverted to MAN as well as a number of other wide bodies. It's just difficult to understand whether the notam when issued, or other occasions when MAN has not been cooperative, are as a result of sound, logical, operational decisions based on the situation at the time, or a reflection of attitudes on the ground by particular airport management or handling agents staff.

[SWBKCB]

It's just difficult to understand whether the notam when issued, or other occasions when MAN has not been cooperative, are as a result of sound, logical, operational decisions based on the situation at the time, or a reflection of attitudes on the ground by particular airport management or handling agents staff.

And as none of them are coming forward to discuss the decision making on this thread, the rest is circular guesswork.

[AndrewH52]

Reported by a couple of sources on Twitter that Lufthansa is starting a twice weekly, freight-only FRA-MAN-DUB service using A321F, wef 22/2/22.

[eggc]

Surprised not to see here mentioned MAN found room for a delivery flight...as a spanking new Iraqi Airways A220 is currently sat remote off T2. Will be continuing its journey to Iraq from Montreal very shortly.

[MANFOD]

Thanks for mentioning that eggc. Did someone suggest there might be more Iraqi A220s on delivery?

And here it is - the infamous notam updated.
A) EGCC B) 2201071559 C) 2201102359 E) AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERTED TRAFFIC. EMERGENCIES EXCEPTED. CREATED: 07 Jan 2022 16:00:00

I always have to read these a couple of times to interpret them but I think it's only been renewed until 23.59 on Monday 10th January, which is a shorter period than normal. Whether that's more hopeful is another question.

[42psi]

NOTAMs are for temporary changes/restrictions only.

I believe the CAA normally require the contents to be incorporated into the AIP after a certain length of time.

In this case I think you'll find they've already allowed it to be reissued beyond the normal repeat limit.

Not forgetting it's intention is primarily to ensure EGCC is not flight planned as an alternate.

[MANFOD]

That's interesting 42psi. The notam first came into effect at 00.01 on 21 Dec. so cumulatively it will be 3 weeks when the new notam expires on Monday. Are you suggesting the CAA may refuse to let it be reissued at some point if it's already on an extension?

[42psi]

That's interesting 42psi. The notam first came into effect at 00.01 on 21 Dec. so cumulatively it will be 3 weeks when the new notam expires on Monday. Are you suggesting the CAA may refuse to let it be reissued at some point if it's already on an extension?


Not right now!

I believe the CAA already accept that the circumstances are unusual, but they won't allow it indefinitely.

Edited to clarify : if you keep issuing it its clearly not temporary so you will eventually have to put in the AIP.
A Notam is not for permanent changes.

[SWBKCB]

You might want to check how long Carlisle has been "temporarily" NOTAM'd closed. More than 3 weeks...

[42psi]

You might want to check how long Carlisle has been "temporarily" NOTAM'd closed. More than 3 weeks...

As I said, CAA are currently accepting that the circumstances are a little unusual :)

[HOVIS]

Reported by a couple of sources on Twitter that Lufthansa is starting a twice weekly, freight-only FRA-MAN-DUB service using A321F, wef 22/2/22.
Any idea what time of day?

[Rutan16]

Any idea what time of day?

Suppose this is one of VALLAIR frames flown by Smartlynx Malta and currently operated for DHL; chances of bait and switch to EMA quite high !

[AndrewH52]

Any idea what time of day?

Arrives 00:05 Tue/Th dep 01:30 Wed/Fri (Credit @SPD_travels)

[Navpi]

Suppose this is one of VALLAIR frames flown by Smartlynx Malta and currently operated for DHL; chances of bait and switch to EMA quite high !

Rutan26, Looks highly likely once MAN get wind it is still supposed to be coming, although it was actually known in October so they have had time to switchsell it if there are logistical issues.

it is possible of course the airline having applied "for Manchester", actually want Manchester !

[HOVIS]

Rutan26, Looks highly likely once MAN get wind it is still supposed to be coming, although it was actually known in October so they have had time to switchsell it if there are logistical issues.

it is possible of course the airline having applied "for Manchester", actually want Manchester !
I can see one logistical problem straight away. Time of day. Dnata ground handling all go home at 23:30.

[SCFC1EP]

Arrival/Departure times seem a little long 25 1/2 hrs surely 90MIN turnaround more realistic

Another point if in connection with DHL and EMA maybe EMA can not accept it at those times of night, that's the busiest part of night at EMA especially on that DHL Ramp

[HOVIS]

Arrival/Departure times seem a little long 25 1/2 hrs surely 90MIN turnaround more realistic

I suspect those date/times posted above are typos. Much more likely to be as you say.

[chaps1954]

Aircraft arrives 5 minutes after midnight therefore next day

[AndrewH52]

Correct. Flights depart DUB on TUE/THU at 23:00, arriving in MAN at 00:05 on Wed/Fri.

Apologies, more haste, less speed.

[The96er]

I can see one logistical problem straight away. Time of day. Dnata ground handling all go home at 23:30.

Dnata will not be handling it.

[HOVIS]

Dnata will not be handling it.
Ooh, that's interesting. They losing the LH contract then?

[The96er]

Ooh, that's interesting. They losing the LH contract then?

Nope, they just won’t be handling the freighter.

[mmeteesside]

Suppose this is one of VALLAIR frames flown by Smartlynx Malta and currently operated for DHL; chances of bait and switch to EMA quite high !
Those ones are on the DHL network, as far as I know LH Cityline are operating two on behalf of LH Cargo, currently in conversion

[Navpi]

Navpi You would not believe how little space is actually available. Most nights involve night parking for 80+ resident aircraft and night stopping.

If space is indeed that tight where will growth come from assuming we get back to pe pandemic levels in 3 years.

The additional pier wipes out even more stands.

[MANFOD]

If space is indeed that tight where will growth come from assuming we get back to pe pandemic levels in 3 years.
The additional pier wipes out even more stands.

That's a fair question Navpi. I tried to raise the issue earlier of when the TP is hopefully complete whether we will have more stands and the potential for growth within the airfield boundaries. Is the situation really worse now than pre-pandemic when TCX, MON, and flybe had based aircraft, even allowing for some additions from easyjet and Jet2? As I recall, 2 or 3 years ago, MAN couldn't accommodate proposed expansion by Ryanair on the grounds of terminal capacity as much as parking stands in the morning peak. I suspect the number of based a/c then was nearer 100 than 80 but maybe someone could confirm.

[Navpi]

That's a fair question Navpi. I tried to raise the issue earlier of when the TP is hopefully complete whether we will have more stands and the potential for growth within the airfield boundaries. Is the situation really worse now than pre-pandemic when TCX, MON, and flybe had based aircraft, even allowing for some additions from easyjet and Jet2? As I recall, 2 or 3 years ago, MAN couldn't accommodate proposed expansion by Ryanair on the grounds of terminal capacity as much as parking stands in the morning peak. I suspect the number of based a/c then was nearer 100 than 80 but maybe someone could confirm.

From memory we have lost 17 TCX, 8 FlyBe, 3 VIR.

The other 80 were made up of the usual suspects
JET2, RYR, EZY , TUI, etc.

We cannot move beyond the current airfield footprint , so what now ?

Not sure we can rely on multiple W sectors from other bases or larger aircraft ?

Much as i like the piers have we compromised ramp space in order to provide gold standard facilities for what is predominantly the bucket and spade brigade?

[chaps1954]

We still have as many Virgin just not 747s and remember that the other operators have or will all have extra aircraft in fleets

[OzzyOzBorn]

Eventually, maybe. However, plans to backfill Thomas Cook capacity principally involved adding more based aircraft for S2020, but a certain Covid-19 put paid to that. Meanwhile, FlyBe's demise came right at the start of C-19 ... I don't think that any new based aircraft have come to MAN on the back of that. We'll see what happens in Summer 2022, if we can finally shake free from covid theatre.

I seem to recall that the MAN-based Thomas Cook fleet was in the mid-twenties at the end, but could be mistaken on that.

[MANFOD]

We still have as many Virgin just not 747s and remember that the other operators have or will all have extra aircraft in fleets

As I recall, pre-pandemic Virgin based 6 a/c at MAN - not sure if it was ever 7. They flew to LAX, BOS and LAS (sometimes winter seasonal I think) as well as MCO, JFK, ATL and BGI. Previously they had also served SFO.
Unless it changes, this coming summer only has MCO (12 x weekly?); JFK daily, and at present ISB at 4 x weekly. By my reckoning, that will require no more than 4 based a/c as Virgin consider it more important for fleet utilisation to preserve their slots at LHR. Incidentally, BGI is showing 5 x weekly but the flights, perhaps surprisingly, are with transfers at LHR using BA for the domestic leg.

I don't believe the TCX based fleet ever reached mid-twenties, probably high teens, but I could be wrong. And of course their long haul flights (7 based a/c, was it?) included some arrivals back at MAN after 09.00 when there might not have been the same pressure on capable stands.

One rumour a while ago about possible new parking stands was somewhere in the vicinity of the viewing park but others may know if that was correct and if so whether it's still an option.

[chaps1954]

There were 4 arrivals plus 1 or 2 stored this moning which included an A350 plus an A330 positoned in this morning

[MANFOD]

Point taken, but when it comes to summer, I imagine those stored aircraft will be required at LHR.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

much as i like the piers have we compromised ramp space in order to provide gold standard facilities for what is predominantly the bucket and spade brigade
There comes a point where you have to ask yourself what do you actually want? MAN has the biggest capital investment in new facilities of any UK airport since LHR T2 and now it's a worry that by actually building piers so people can board without getting soaked (Welcome to Manchester!) that's a tragedy because there's a net drop of a handful of stands? There's enough to worry about without actively looking for more. They're trying to get back to world class facilities for international travellers, something T2 used to have once upon a time. It's not snobbery to do this, it's ambitious. So it might mean 2 or 3 less Ryanair based units but in the grand scheme of things, take a win when you're given one!

Given one B777F/B747F stand can hold 2 x B737/A320 what's your preference? Send cargo to another MAG airport or tell a based carrier to drop two based units?

[easyflyer83]

And let’s not fool ourselves into thinking MAN TP is gold standard. MAN was never going to get a glass palace and MAN TP isn’t. It’s practical, modern and pretty pleasant but it’s nothing particularly luxurious or grand.

Leisure travel is indeed a huge part of MAN and it always will be. You misjudge the bucket & spade brigade who, in reality at MAN (and most other northern airports) spend their money and no doubt fund those “gold standard” facilities. Not withstanding that, as we all know, MAN serves many non leisure routes and carriers.

I’m still not convinced that this isn’t about spotters wanting more variety.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Given one B777F/B747F stand can hold 2 x B737/A320 what's your preference? Send cargo to another MAG airport or tell a based carrier to drop two based units?

MAN has lost rather alot of based units taking account of the demise of MON, TCX and BEE. Plus pending reductions in based-fleet from VIR. There used to be single based units from carriers such as Condor, Germania, ASL France, Enter Air and Small Planet in the not too distant past as well. In the case of TCX and BEE, the anticipated reactive backfill from other based carriers was derailed by covid. Some additional based aircraft are likely, but it will be a challenging climb back to the previous highs. Four years minimum is my guess. So you offer a false choice. There is room to accommodate the passenger business on offer at this point, and to accept cargo flights. And, as you certainly know, MAG cannot "send" cargo operators anywhere. They can offer a switch-sell proposal which operators can accept or decline. The decision is the preserve of the operator. Furthermore, if business were to come back at a pace which threatens to overwhelm apron space, that would be a very welcome problem to have - but I fear there will be breathing room for a long time yet. And if a sustained upswing were to be genuinely anticipated, how about constructing some additional remote stands?

Note that previous instances which saw proposed additional based Ryanair units turned away related specifically to T3 access; nothing to do with space on the West Apron which would be the logical choice for servicing cargo flights.

I’m still not convinced that this isn’t about spotters wanting more variety.

In the rolling twelve months to the end of November 2021 (most recent data), MAN's passenger throughput was 5,444,757. Cargo was 52,446 Tonnes. Comparable numbers at the end of September 2019 were 29,510,599 and 113,248 Tonnes.

Whilst those November numbers represent a recovery from the March 2021 covid nadir of 2,844,918 and 39,710 Tonnes, it is clear that there is still a huge chasm separating today's throughput from the 2019 highs. So maybe you should consider that this is about interested parties wanting to see MAG putting some energy into attracting back much-needed business, rather than leaving the routes team on furlough for far too long, issuing consecutive no-div notams week after week, and rejecting freighter requests seemingly by default. If anyone is arguing that MAN can't cope with 20% of previous passenger throughput and less than half of recent cargo numbers, then they need to be asking serious questions of senior management. I'll take extra business for MAN whether it be "more variety" or extra Jet2's and Ryanair's. MAN needs everything it can get! The airport is enduring the biggest slump since WW2.

By the way, a word to the wise on the 'spotters' jibe. My years as a spotter from the age of ten led to a rewarding career in the industry which I always wanted to work in. I know that to be true of many other PP users also - including Skipness, I suggest. It is probably unwise to be haughtily dismissive of the avgeek massive on here!

[Mr A Tis]

If anyone is arguing that MAN can't cope with 20% of previous passenger throughput and less than half of recent cargo numbers, then they need to be asking serious questions of senior management.

I'm afraid from my pre Christmas use of T1 & Pre New Year use of T2 - this is exactly true. Neither were a pleasant experience in any way. As for T2 "Gold standard" remark by Navpi - you must be having a laugh, there is nothing Gold standard about T2., it merely brings an adequate level of facility (without the staff to fully utilise it) compared to the dire depressing T1/T3 facility-(also without adequate staff.

[easyflyer83]

By the way, a word to the wise on the 'spotters' jibe. My years as a spotter from the age of ten led to a rewarding career in the industry which I always wanted to work in. I know that to be true of many other PP users also - including Skipness, I suggest. It is probably unwise to be haughtily dismissive of the avgeek massive on here!

You took it as a jibe. I have nothing against spotters. I don’t class myself as a spotter (I have friends who are) but I am an avgeek and frequent visits in my youth also led to a 16 year (and counting) experience within the industry.

Not withstanding that, I stand by my comment that for many, this argument will be about getting more variety and reg’s in their note books and some more exotic birds that might divert in.

There’s nothing wrong with that, it was nice to see a Air Tahiti in MAN last week, for example, rather than just getting to see one in LAX.

[Navpi]

The reference to "gold standard" was of course relative as a few snipers are I'm sure aware. The point remains there has been a tsunami of posters claiming limited facilities, no stands, no ramp space et al.

I am merely suggesting that a new pier which constrains space even more might be not be a priority at the moment given those constraints.

And yes as for the "spotting jibe", leave it out.

[chaps1954]

Of course we have all missed Air Lingus UK with 3 units

[easyflyer83]

The reference to "gold standard" was of course relative as a few snipers are I'm sure aware. The point remains there has been a tsunami of posters claiming limited facilities, no stands, no ramp space et al.

I am merely suggesting that a new pier which constrains space even more might be not be a priority at the moment given those constraints.

And yes as for the "spotting jibe", leave it out.

But we have a terminal that is or approaching life expired and which isn’t the most practical plus another terminal which, whilst newer in part, isn’t the practical for today’s traffic. So what gives? Don’t redevelop the terminal facilities just so we can have a few freighters?

I’m no MAN apologist, the place can occasionally be a nightmare and MAN TP was instigated too late in the day in my opinion. However, I think we are making a mountain out of a mole hill somewhat.

I stand by my spotter remark. If people these days take offence to the term, ‘spotter’, then I’m happy to use a different descriptor but I broadly stand by my comment.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Of course we have all missed Air Lingus UK with 3 units

Good point. The Aer Lingus base is a very welcome development. Though curiously, cutbacks by Virgin and US carriers mean that they will barely eat into the Thomas Cook long-haul void. I think the other reason that Aer Lingus did not arise in discussion is because their aircraft do not park on the West Apron overnight.

I stand by my spotter remark. If people these days take offence to the term, ‘spotter’, then I’m happy to use a different descriptor but I broadly stand by my comment.

I tend to use either 'enthusiast' or 'avgeek' in this respect. The word 'spotter' risks coming across as a put-down on forums like this. But whatever label we use, we should not be dismissive. Many of the most successful professionals within the industry got through the door based on knowledge picked up in their formative spotting years. And in almost any team within the industry, they tend to be the ones with the most drive and enthusiasm to attract new business and deliver success. Someone who actually wants to be there and enjoys their work is likely to provide a better service than another who is there just because they need the money and any job will do. Enthusiasts are motivated.

As for the implication that 'spotters' would like to see Longtail, Nordwind and others at MAN, that is undoubtedly true. 100%. I'd photograph them if they turned up - I wouldn't pretend otherwise. But, as you know, we have spent much of this exchange discussing Jet2 and Ryanair aircraft turned away on diversion requests, and past instances of Ryanair expansion proposals not being accommodated. Because I want to see MAN maximise ALL business opportunities out there, and if that includes some aircraft with different paint jobs, that's great. But when passenger throughput is down by around 80% (yes, just think about that number!), and cargo throughput down by more than 50% from a level which was never even close to optimised anyway, then I do feel inclined to comment when management appears most interested in keeping the routes team furloughed to save wages, saying no to cargo operators, and issuing no-div notams week after week. I want to see convincing EVIDENCE that they're back on the front foot and chasing up all new business leads out there. I don't yet see that, hence this discussion. I for one would be very happy to see new operators at MAN, but no more so than by seeing increased ops by familiar based carriers. I want to see MAT's 29,510,599 pax and 113,248 Tonnes cargo regained and surpassed. That will require a long-term 'can do' team effort which appears to be conspicuously absent at MAN. It would be nice to see Mr Cornish commit to addressing this.

Perhaps blaming 'spotters' uses a convenient scapegoat to avoid facing up to the real issue. Maybe we need to question those who rush to defend a culture of negativity, shrug the shoulders, not my problem, muddling along is fine, I don't know or care, no-can-do, just say NO to everything, regardless of actual circumstance.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered but why didn't T2 get a parallel satelitte building instead of the old school piers and cul de sacs?

[AndrewH52]

Ozzy.

Passenger numbers in November were back to over 50% of pre-Covid levels and movements over 60%. Use of the year-on-year comparison is misleading at best in the context of the current discussion. Also bear on mind that terminal capacity remains reduced through the ongoing closure T3.

You keep referencing Jet2 diversions that were turned away? How many are we talking about and when was this? Are you sure you're not conflating it with the (one) Ryanair flight that departed back to Leeds and then had to divert to Liverpool?

Navpi

I'm sure you'll be delighted to know that R2 (23L/5R) is back in action for a number of nights this week to allow maintenance to R1.

[HOVIS]

Ozzy, Aer Lingus UK have been parking on the Western Apron since they arrived in September.
You are not seeing any right now because there's only two aircraft on site and both operate daily. When the other A330 comes off heavy maintenance next month you'll be seeing one parked up again.

Anyway, I spotted a prime example of MAN's problems today. Nearly 20 vehicles queued up waiting to get airside through West Gate. Only two lanes open. That's a wait of nearly two hours for the ones at the back.

[OzzyOzBorn]

AndrewH52 - November stats were a step in the right direction, but we've since seen a sudden kneejerk reintroduction of covid restrictions in the UK (since rescinded again) which the industry had been led to believe would not happen. This seriously damages confidence amongst regular folks who worry they might be caught out by sudden quarantine mandates or unanticipated costs if they dare to make new advance bookings for air travel. Uncertainty is a major barrier to recovery. Re data sets for comparison: the stats I used are the best we have available - and, actually, they tell the story right down to the last passenger and the last tonne of freight. If you wish to present alternative stats, we can discuss them. The non-availability of T3 can be changed at the discretion of management. Current demand justifies the mothballing of T3, but MAG makes the call on when traffic merits bringing it back online. Passenger throughput isn't depressed because T3 is closed; T3 is closed because passenger numbers remain depressed.

I haven't retained a record of diversion activity since the start of December (maybe others have?), but they certainly extend well beyond the one aircraft you keep referring to (it = singular), and I certainly recall instances of Jet2 and KLM having to divert from LBA.

HOVIS - Covid measures and the delayed lifting of US border restrictions meant that Aer Lingus UK had to delay their Manchester transatlantic launch. As with all carriers hit by covid mandates, they parked up aircraft until circumstances changed. Going forward, their based fleet will be scheduled to fly most days of the week. So moving into Summer '22, EUK aircraft parked overnight should not be an issue (unless politicians panic again).

Your West Gate account again underlines the need for MAG to redouble efforts to bring back resilience as a priority, and rebuild the capability of the business across all departments. I'm asking them to show some desire to get MAN back to the highs, and that means sweeping away the the negative 'no-can-do' culture.

[UnderASouthernSky]

Can we assume that any major infrastructure development such as T2 at MAN or those recent/ongoing at other airports are designed in conjunction with the airlines?
I find it hard to believe that certain design "flaws" being flagged here were not agreed by the end users at some stage. Surely, effectively, some of the airlines' money is funding elements of such projects - if I were an airline boss then I'd want my say in how an airport/terminal etc would be designed and operated... hopefully to best suit my airline and customers.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Given the nature of present discussions on here, this may surprise some. But we need to acknowledge the T2 TP as a job well done to date, given the tight budget and the challenges faced. Not one passenger was disrupted during that whole huge construction process ... most T2 customers were barely aware that work-in-progress was an ongoing issue. The new section of terminal and Pier 1 are a major asset to the campus and will remains so for years to come. We can debate matters of aesthetics and whether the terminal should have been pitched to a more business-orientated clientele, but IMHO they got it right. MAN's bread and butter is leisure travel, with a welcome proportion of business travel backing that up. But keep in mind that most passengers who fly via MAN on the prestige long-haul carriers do so in economy seats, having paid the lowest fare they can source. No-frills carriers' customers are not the only budget travellers. The smaller cohort of business customers will have lounge options available once everything is fully reopened following the covid nightmare.

'Out of sight, out of mind' also means that the gamechanging programme to realign and double-up much of MAN's taxiway network passes largely unacknowledged. It should be acknowledged. It will prove hugely beneficial when traffic levels return to something resembling the old normal. Kudos for that too. And several new remote stands were constructed as part of the programme.

Going forward, we know that covid struck before the TP reached its end-stage. The design calls for more piers to be constructed, and for legacy T2 to be revamped. Let's hope all that can be put back on track, but time will tell. On the negative side, most here would acknowledge that the T1/T3 complex is in dire need of some TLC, as they will host millions more customers yet. And we certainly need a solution to the defunct travellator issues in the Skylink ... the current debacle cannot be left to fester. Elderly customers simply cannot be expected to traipse those kind of distances with heavy luggage.

So, big plaudits where they are due, and strategic prods where they are not. There is still plenty of work to be done. But in the short term, much of that relates to building up staff resilience across several frontline departments, and reintroducing the long-lost 'CAN DO' culture which was a routine hallmark of using MAN just afew years ago. That may mean paying workers more. So be it ... it is not a bad thing to remunerate staff beyond the absolute minimum. I approve! It will cost money, but you've got to invest to accumulate. Well-managed businesses will commit to that.

[MANFOD]

If anyone has not got passed caring:
A) EGCC B) 2201102005 C) 2202102359 E) AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERTED TRAFFIC. EMERGENCIES EXCEPTED. CREATED: 10 Jan 2022 20:06:00

After the last extension of only 3 days, they've now decided to go for 3 weeks as I assume that means until 1st Feb. Perhaps it would take several other major UK airports to adopt the same blanket policy for the CAA to take action?

[SWBKCB]

If anyone has not got passed caring:
A) EGCC B) 2201102005 C) 2202102359 E) AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERTED TRAFFIC. EMERGENCIES EXCEPTED. CREATED: 10 Jan 2022 20:06:00

After the last extension of only 3 days, they've now decided to go for 3 weeks as I assume that means until 1st Feb. Perhaps it would take several other major UK airports to adopt the same blanket policy for the CAA to take action?

Or the positition (that nobody is aware of on this list is fully aware of) has been explained to the CAA and they are content?

[Suzeman]

If anyone has not got passed caring:
A) EGCC B) 2201102005 C) 2202102359 E) AD NOT AVBL FOR DIVERTED TRAFFIC. EMERGENCIES EXCEPTED. CREATED: 10 Jan 2022 20:06:00

After the last extension of only 3 days, they've now decided to go for 3 weeks as I assume that means until 1st Feb. Perhaps it would take several other major UK airports to adopt the same blanket policy for the CAA to take action?

Actually until 10th Feb.

[MANFOD]

Quite right Suzeman. Read some of the numbers back to front not for the first time!
Oh well, makes the renewal for 4 weeks and 3 days then, not 3 weeks. Cumulatively it will be over 7 weeks - and counting

[HOVIS]

Given the nature of present discussions on here, this may surprise some. But we need to acknowledge the T2 TP as a job well done to date, given the tight budget and the challenges faced. Not one passenger was disrupted during that whole huge construction process ... most T2 customers were barely aware that work-in-progress was an ongoing issue. The new section of terminal and Pier 1 are a major asset to the campus and will remains so for years to come. We can debate matters of aesthetics and whether the terminal should have been pitched to a more business-orientated clientele, but IMHO they got it right. MAN's bread and butter is leisure travel, with a welcome proportion of business travel backing that up. But keep in mind that most passengers who fly via MAN on the prestige long-haul carriers do so in economy seats, having paid the lowest fare they can source. No-frills carriers' customers are not the only budget travellers. The smaller cohort of business customers will have lounge options available once everything is fully reopened following the covid nightmare.

'Out of sight, out of mind' also means that the gamechanging programme to realign and double-up much of MAN's taxiway network passes largely unacknowledged. It should be acknowledged. It will prove hugely beneficial when traffic levels return to something resembling the old normal. Kudos for that too. And several new remote stands were constructed as part of the programme.

Going forward, we know that covid struck before the TP reached its end-stage. The design calls for more piers to be constructed, and for legacy T2 to be revamped. Let's hope all that can be put back on track, but time will tell. On the negative side, most here would acknowledge that the T1/T3 complex is in dire need of some TLC, as they will host millions more customers yet. And we certainly need a solution to the defunct travellator issues in the Skylink ... the current debacle cannot be left to fester. Elderly customers simply cannot be expected to traipse those kind of distances with heavy luggage.

So, big plaudits where they are due, and strategic prods where they are not. There is still plenty of work to be done. But in the short term, much of that relates to building up staff resilience across several frontline departments, and reintroducing the long-lost 'CAN DO' culture which was a routine hallmark of using MAN just afew years ago. That may mean paying workers more. So be it ... it is not a bad thing to remunerate staff beyond the absolute minimum. I approve! It will cost money, but you've got to invest to accumulate. Well-managed businesses will commit to that.

Er, sorry, but it's already falling apart. Brand new airbridges with bits hanging off. The ground electrical power fails on a regular basis.
It was built on the cheap and it shows.

[OzzyOzBorn]

It was built to a budget. We know that. But it is a decent facility and MAN is very fortunate to have it. Teething problems are normal and can be fixed.

[MANFOD]

Ozzy. You keep referencing Jet2 diversions that were turned away? How many are we talking about and when was this? Are you sure you're not conflating it with the (one) Ryanair flight that departed back to Leeds and then had to divert to Liverpool?
.
Further to Ozzy's comments in reply, I can recall 2 x Jet2 flights diverting from Leeds to Newcastle, 1 to Edinburgh and 1 to Glasgow when the RVR at LBA was <200m on R32. There may have been others. Usually, Jet2 would use MAN as their alternate from LBA if available. In addition, a KLM diverted to NCL that sometimes might take MAN. Ryanair tend to prefer LPL for their Leeds diversions but use MAN as well.

We may have a repetition if the fog forecast over the next few days affects certain airports, although I guess the number of flights will be less than the build up over the Christmas period. Not that it will be of any concern to MAN unless it causes problems for its own flights.

[dave59]

It was built to a budget. We know that. But it is a decent facility and MAN is very fortunate to have it. Teething problems are normal and can be fixed.

Built to a budget sounds ominous. How can bits falling off air bridges and ground electrical power failures be "teething problems"? The original T2 was really impressive in 1992 and definitely not a "budget" design.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Surely problem with airbridges and ground power units is the responsibility of the suppliers and should be handled by them - unless of course it is the result of the users who, and please correct me if I'm wrong, are the handling agents?

Edited due autocorrect error!!

[HOVIS]

It was built to a budget. We know that. But it is a decent facility and MAN is very fortunate to have it. Teething problems are normal and can be fixed.
Hahahah. Teething problems! 😁

When electrical power drops out on a 787 or 350 it's more than teething trouble it's bloody expensive. Causes huge delays and can damage the aircraft.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Sorry, but I'm not impressed.

Well at least you must know or care on this issue then. A big improvement in your demeanour. :)

I presume that you are offering feedback and suggesting remedies to those who can address the issues you identify?

[BACsuperVC10]

Further to Ozzy's comments in reply, I can recall 2 x Jet2 flights diverting from Leeds to Newcastle, 1 to Edinburgh and 1 to Glasgow when the RVR at LBA was <200m on R32. There may have been others. Usually, Jet2 would use MAN as their alternate from LBA if available. In addition, a KLM diverted to NCL that sometimes might take MAN. Ryanair tend to prefer LPL for their Leeds diversions but use MAN as well.

We may have a repetition if the fog forecast over the next few days affects certain airports, although I guess the number of flights will be less than the build up over the Christmas period. Not that it will be of any concern to MAN unless it causes problems for its own flights.
LPL also handled a KLM divert from LBA recently.

[HOVIS]

Well at least you must know or care on this issue then. A big improvement in your demeanour. :)

I presume that you are offering feedback and suggesting remedies to those who can address the issues you identify?
YES, I care because it causes me and my work colleagues extra work.
If by feedback you mean phoning the help line to get the problems fixed, frankly I've given up. As I approach retirement I have decided that some things are well above my pay grade.

I used to try, honestly I did, but lately I really just cannot be bothered. I used to be diligent with FOD and pick up everything I saw out on the apron. Nowadays I'd need a skip and shovel to make a dent in the mess. So unless it's right in front of me or I step on it it stays where it is.

[DP.]

Er, sorry, but it's already falling apart. Brand new airbridges with bits hanging off. The ground electrical power fails on a regular basis.
It was built on the cheap and it shows.

The airbridges were provided by a specialist supplier who have supplied airports all over the world. Now you could argue that the spec that MAG provided to them was 'cheap' (that is obviously between the companies) but I've certainly seen much worse airbridges than those at T2. The ground power is a utility issue, rather than build quality - I'm not sure that supports a conclusion that the entire project was built 'on the cheap'.

[HOVIS]

I was told the airbridges were designed for ships which is why the wobble about so much. 😁

[DP.]

I was told the airbridges were designed for ships which is why the wobble about so much. 😁

The manufacturer also supplies cruise terminals as well as airports, but I think it's a stretch to say these specific ones were designed for ships.

[lfc84]

Advertising for security jobs paying £12.04 per hour. Other roles are available
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/hundreds-jobs-available-manchester-airport-22727100

[horatio_b]

The £12.04 /hr equates to £9.83 p/h plus 22.5% shift allowance

Need to be flexible: "However, at peak times you may be required to work additional hours or at quieter times you may be required to work less than 38 or 31 hours a week.

This does not affect your salary which is paid consistently at 38 or 31 hours per week despite the hours you may work".

[HOVIS]

Any news on Air Canada returning?

[chaps1954]

Air Canada A330s from early June not Air Canada Rouge
Daily except Monday and Saturday:

.2345.7 MAN YYZ 1115 1400 AC 809 333*C

Runs from 2 June to 30 Sep.
Thanks Forum4Airports for info

Ian

[CabinCrewe]

aren't AC A330’s relatively premium heavy on a route not known for its mainline premium requirements? Be interesting to see how that pans out.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Yeah, they've a large business cabin which I suspect will be sold as Premium Economy. Seems they're keen to get back into market even though the aircraft is not ideal, they're using a MAX to EDI and no sign of GLA returning yet. That sort of short peak season was why it went Rouge.

[Mr A Tis]

AC are selling 3 class priced tickets. - seat plan for AC808 is currently C27/W21/Y244.
Hope their performance is better than Rouge, which at times were pretty awful. Even when they arrived early, they were rarely despatched anything like on time for the return.
I wouldn't be too surprised if for 2022 it went via EDI & the EDI MAX dropped- but I have no inside knowledge on that possibility.

[Rutan16]

AC are selling 3 class priced tickets. - seat plan for AC808 is currently C27/W21/Y244.
Hope their performance is better than Rouge, which at times were pretty awful. Even when they arrived early, they were rarely despatched anything like on time for the return.
I wouldn't be too surprised if for 2022 it went via EDI & the EDI MAX dropped- but I have no inside knowledge on that possibility.
Don't they have two varieties of 333 in normal times their original eight and those further eight acquired via TAP and Singapore.
If these work for Lyon (all year combined with Geneva couple hours away) Bordeaux and Toulouse from Montreal can't see why they wouldn't from Manchester to Toronto
The only consideration is they are actually based in Montreal for the most part so a potential orphan operation and likely requiring a positioning sector (They do this already for Pfreighers at the moment) - Some of the 333 fleet are currently configured for freight on passenger duties.
Rouge wide body fleet is effectively dead, though they do have the 2 A319-112 frames used across the Atlantic on estate - All the 767s are parked and the three with mainland are or have been through Tel Aviv for full freight conversion.
Rouge brand is not likely to return across the Atlantic anytime soon.
It also remains something of anomaly why the French provincial services continue to work whilst the UK operations (other than the black hole ) have declined so far as to not support even a three weekly service level.

[easyflyer83]

Don't they have two varieties of 333 in normal times their original eight and those further eight acquired via TAP and Singapore.
If these work for Lyon (all year combined with Geneva couple hours away) Bordeaux and Toulouse from Montreal can't see why they wouldn't from Manchester to Toronto
The only consideration is they are actually based in Montreal for the most part so a potential orphan operation and likely requiring a positioning sector (They do this already for Pfreighers at the moment) - Some of the 333 fleet are currently configured for freight on passenger duties.
Rouge wide body fleet is effectively dead, though they do have the 2 A319-112 frames used across the Atlantic on estate - All the 767s are parked and the three with mainland are or have been through Tel Aviv for full freight conversion.
Rouge brand is not likely to return across the Atlantic anytime soon.
It also remains something of anomaly why the French provincial services continue to work whilst the UK operations (other than the black hole ) have declined so far as to not support even a three weekly service level.

Given it’s French speaking heritage, I guess it’s no surprise that secondary French cities are linked with YUL etc.

[Rutan16]

Given it’s French speaking heritage, I guess it’s no surprise that secondary French cities are linked with YUL etc.

That's not the point - Toronto - UK demand should be greater than or at least as robust as Montreal- Lyon or even Montreal - Bordeaux ! Even with the mother and daughter traffic in natural decline for two decades or so .

Its easier for my daughter in Nantes to visit cousins in Dieppe Nova Scotia via Montreal (Air tran) than myself and wife these days.

Things don't necessarily add up.

By the way own parents sister and myself flew flew direct to Montreal on a VC10 nearly forty years ago !

[chaps1954]

Market has changed in last few years, the days of 3 or 4 Wardair + CP Air and Air Canda has gone at Manchester and most other cities in the UK.

[ATNotts]

Market has changed in last few years, the days of 3 or 4 Wardair + CP Air and Air Canda has gone at Manchester and most other cities in the UK.
It has quite literally died.

[Rutan16]

Market has changed in last few years, the days of 3 or 4 Wardair + CP Air and Air Canda has gone at Manchester and most other cities in the UK.

Well aware yet again a provincial French city of similar and in many ways weaker economics retains the connections - The UK market to Canada may have contracted however the elephant in the room is as usual 93 thousand ( might have missed a few ) flights Air Canada operate into Heathrow isn't it ?

I highlight Lyon particularly as Air Canada seem to do okay operate year round , have literally ZERO connections have yet also operate to neighbouring Geneva with full alliance backup.

[Rutan16]

It has quite literally died.

Well aware of the mothers and daughter traffic indeed mentioned it in my earlier post. The issue is one of marketing or lack thereof particularly by Air Canada .

Air Transat/Canadian Affair are all that's left I fear.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

What's Air Canada at LHR got to do with MAN? It's not as if we can blame bmi for feeding AC anymore out of MAN via LHR. There have been four daily year round LHR-YYZ flights for years, mostly on point to point traffic but with some connections to STAR partners, almost none of which impact on MAN. The old VFR frequencies are gone forever as the old market died and the new one has plenty more options. The better comparison is surely DUB, which today has year round A330/B787 service from YYZ and that's up against Aer Lingus. That's a stronger business market and a much stronger Canada originating market (I think).

[Rutan16]

What's Air Canada at LHR got to do with MAN? It's not as if we can blame bmi for feeding AC anymore out of MAN via LHR. There have been four daily year round LHR-YYZ flights for years, mostly on point to point traffic but with some connections to STAR partners, almost none of which impact on MAN. The old VFR frequencies are gone forever as the old market died and the new one has plenty more options. The better comparison is surely DUB, which today has year round A330/B787 service from YYZ and that's up against Aer Lingus. That's a stronger business market and a much stronger Canada originating market (I think).

Skip sort of that's the point isn't it . Air Canada did indeed do the deal with BMi to feed Manchester and Glasgow over said hub.
Through now seem to consider the regions hardly worth a coconut .
Differing story apparently in our close neighbour !
Just doesn't seem to add up to me.
Interesting statistic's from Destination Canada (Federal web site) in 1986 there were 696,000 UK visitors in 2018 792,000.
So the myth that visitors have declined massively doesn't stack up, rather quite the contrary ! (Visitors to central Canada have collapsed through)
Cross reference visitor type and dynamics maybe have changed .
Simply put this clearly demonstrates traffic has been diverted via the Hub even now with the domestics being put on BA or over Frankfurt !
There are also significant numbers routing over Amsterdam (Long have done so) or via Dublin today.

I amn't sure the business case for SLF traffic into Dublin is that much stronger, through freight transfer into the single market will be so..
I know my company has received shipments from Montreal via Dublin (small flat packs) in the past.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It doesn't add up, if stronger demand was there once bmi went away, Transat or Westjet would have mopped it up. They didn't. The Rouge service was a summer peak seasonal leisure service, so there's a different driver at work in market. BA's BAU on LHR-YYZ was 2 x daily with a LGW leisure summer service pre COVID, Air Canada were four daily at LHR with Rouge at LGW one year too. That's a very strong London offering, but anyone from the Manchester area has a BA connection option but Air Canada was cut off from the local market. I suppose they might be toe dipping to see if more than a summer option might work? Almost no one is connecting MAN-LHR-YYZ on Air Canada though, and FRA is a good option if you need to connect I suppose. Same with United, both walked away.

BTW those nos show a 13% increase in 32 years, that's underperforming massively vs. wider market.

[chaps1954]

Air Transat are running at present but have released most of their fleet of A330s and Westjet were due to start in 2020 but of course reasons caused them to cancel

[MAN2SIN2BKK2FRA]

Market has changed in last few years, the days of 3 or 4 Wardair + CP Air and Air Canda has gone at Manchester and most other cities in the UK.
Shame, gone are the Fridays with Wardair flights to Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton/Calgary and Winnipeg

[A340600MAN]

Hi

Prior to the pandemic Luxair were thought to be returning to Manchester with their Dash 8's. Any info on a possible return in Summer 2022?

El Al ... I've read nothing about a possible return of their B738's. Any news?

Regards

Len

[MANFAN]

Has the night stop Lufthansa Frankfurt flight stopped? I noticed the last few nights only the Munich flight is operating…

[chaps1954]

It seems to vary as there was an afternoon flight, however Lufthansa have dropped 32,000 flights over next couple of months worldwide as Germany have put a lot of restrictions on
entering the country hopefully to be lifted soon as they see cases in UK dropping.
Having seen the figures for mainland Europe(France nearly 500,000 and Germany well over 100, 000 and Italy 250,000) looks as if Boris did get it right.

[Sober Lark]

No problem entering Germany if you're vaccinated. Just fill out a form and that's it.

[chaps1954]

Yes there is my son has just gone and only accepted on special exemption on UK flights at present

[DomyDom]

It seems to vary as there was an afternoon flight, however Lufthansa have dropped 32,000 flights over next couple of months worldwide as Germany have put a lot of restrictions on
entering the country hopefully to be lifted soon as they see cases in UK dropping.
Having seen the figures for mainland Europe(France nearly 500,000 and Germany well over 100, 000 and Italy 250,000) looks as if Boris did get it right.
Nothing to do with Boris really. Once infection rates in the country are such that border controls are no longer effective there is no reason to keep them. Its just that the UK infection curve was earlier than the others so it made sense to drop entry controls quicker in the UK. France and Germany have now also dropped most of theirs. I think they all went on longer than needed but thats just my opinion and at least we are going in the right direction of travel now. Lets hope things keep improving and we can look forward to a better end of winter and then spring and summer.

[chaps1954]

When did Germany drop theirs as it was still in force on Monday morning as I say my son and his 30 collegues had to get an excemption to fly

[BA318]

When did Germany drop theirs as it was still in force on Monday morning as I say my son and his 30 collegues had to get an excemption to fly

The restriction was lifted on 4th January.

[DP.]

That's a very strong London offering, but anyone from the Manchester area has a BA connection option but Air Canada was cut off from the local market. I suppose they might be toe dipping to see if more than a summer option might work? Almost no one is connecting MAN-LHR-YYZ on Air Canada though

I'd like to see a good Canada service from Manchester, but the Rouge or Transat options haven't really appealed for quite a while. My last Canada trip pre-Covid was to YVR, routing back from YYZ, and found BA from LHR to be the best option. The only snag with it was that the MAN-LHR outbound leg was adding something like £220 each to the ticket, so with us having absolutely zero time pressure, we got a couple of cheap first class tickets down to Euston and a taxi out to LHR. It still ended up being the best option on both cost and comfort (A380 on the LHR-VYR leg).

[CabinCrewe]

I’m guessing MAN VS couldn't do anything extra with the frame now EDI-BGI being canned in a few weeks?

[Mr A Tis]

I tend to agree with DP. I have used Rouge premium eco many times, at best it's a bit ropey. Time keeping is poor, no IFE- only downloads. Never more than 6 in Prem eco whenever I've used. However, in 2016 mainline operated the service for about 2 weeks, whilst some Rouge 763s were on maintenance. The mainline AC 763 business class was full.
Like many, I've opted several times the AMS or LHR route rather than take the Rouge product. My destination is usually YUL so LHR/AMS can make sense. Nonetheless I think there is demand for a better premium Canadian service.

[MAN777]

This was on twitter this morning.

Kuwait Airways OPS MAN Kuwait Airways - Kuwait City to Manchester. Flights start 3 May 2022 KU113 KWI 2245-0400+1 MAN (Tue & Sat) KU114 MAN 0500-1340 KWI (Wed & Sun) Flights operated on Airbus A320 aircraft Many thanks Sean M @SeanM1997 twitter[/color]

[MANFAN]

I attended a jobs fair this morning held by MAG online, good to see so many positions available ready for the summer schedule.
Jet2 and Ryanair were also conducting a presentation on their open vacancies...I was surprised not to see Easyjet initially, but after looking at their careers website, I notice majority of their open positions are currently at Luton and Gatwick, so my assumption was they already have sufficient staff for their MAN base...

During the airport lounges and MAG presentations, it was stated by the respective presenters that the lounge in T3 would be open in the "summer" and T3 would be open in March. I have not seen any confirmation from MAN/MAG, so I don't take this completely at face value, however, I'm sure these people are in the know already, so very good new if indeed true...
I imagine R2 (23L/05R) will also be open in time for the summer schedule as well, the current NOTAM for single runway ops expires end of Feb (I think).

Hopefully 2022 is THE year for change...

[HOVIS]

This was on twitter this morning.

Kuwait Airways OPS MAN Kuwait Airways - Kuwait City to Manchester. Flights start 3 May 2022 KU113 KWI 2245-0400+1 MAN (Tue & Sat) KU114 MAN 0500-1340 KWI (Wed & Sun) Flights operated on Airbus A320 aircraft Many thanks Sean M @SeanM1997 twitter

Am I reading that right?
STA 04:00z
STD 05:00z
That's a quick turn round for a long haul flight, even for a 320.

[MAN777]

[QUOTE][/

Am I reading that right?
STA 04:00z
STD 05:00z
That's a quick turn round for a long haul flight, even for a 320.QUOTE]


Those timings remind me of a Southwest Airlines Red-Eye special !

Think I will stick with the ME 3

[Gordon_uk3]

Ls the Kuwait not a 25 hour turnaround. it says inbound Tues outbound weds?

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Flight departs KWI on Tue/Sat at 2245, arrives MAN 0400 following day, hence departure from MAN is 0500 after a 1 hour turnaround.

Hope that helps.

[MANFOD]

Flight departs KWI on Tue/Sat at 2245, arrives MAN 0400 following day, hence departure from MAN is 0500 after a 1 hour turnaround.

Hope that helps.
Can someone clarify. Does the 'z' denote GMT rather than BST, in which case the actual UK times will be 1 hour later?

[TartinTon]

Z= GMT = UTC so add 1 hour for BST

[MANFOD]

Yes,that's what I thought, so the timings not quite so bad. There will be plenty of other flights departing at 06.00 BST or shortly after I imagine.

[davidjohnson6]

Who exactly are the potential pax for a flight between Manchester and Kuwait ? Perhaps some sort of profile of target market ?

[roverman]

The new Kuwait Airways service is an odd, if welcome, addition. The low frequency doesn't make it very attractive for onward connections and KWI is nothing like the hub offerings nearby in that region. Looking at the airline's website the only seating configuration given for the A320 is 12J and 122Y for a total of 134 seats, about 100 fewer than the type is capable of carrying. This makes single aisle much more comfortable but doesn't look the typical fit for the MAN market. It looks like it is aimed at a specific business and ethnic community, but I may be wrong. Furthermore, wasn't there news of a Jazeera Airways MAN-KWI service last autumn, perhaps on another web forum?

[Yeehaw22]

the A320 is 12J and 122Y for a total of 134 seats, about 100 fewer than the type is capable of carrying.

230 on an A320? Thatd be snug. Must be the new wizz spec layout......

[roverman]

230 on an A320? Thatd be snug. Must be the new wizz spec layout......

Oops, I'm getting my variants mixed up. It's up to 244 on an A321, and 194 on a 320. Still, the Kuwait layout is low density.

[CabinCrewe]

The new Kuwait Airways service is an odd,
Odd indeed, and won’t last in that format unless being bankrolled in a specific manner.

[BristolexFlyer]

Actually, there is a substantial Kuwaiti student population in Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Sheffield-Hull. Also, twice weekly A320 should be doable with Kuwaiti born British people, expats and the like.

Not concerned about this one at all.

kind regards

BristolexFlyer

[lfc84]

Astonishing story
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/homeless-man-snuck-onto-plane-22886055?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

[Asturias56]

" Looking at the airline's website the only seating configuration given for the A320 is 12J and 122Y for a total of 134 seats, about 100 fewer than the type is capable of carrying."

maybe carrying freight or "special" people in the rest of the plane?

[AircraftOperations]

" Looking at the airline's website the only seating configuration given for the A320 is 12J and 122Y for a total of 134 seats, about 100 fewer than the type is capable of carrying."

maybe carrying freight or "special" people in the rest of the plane?

Would have thought that a "standard" cabin config A320 might be close to being payload restricted on a sector of the length of KWI-MAN

[Rutan16]

The six A320 NEO models actually have FEWER club/ business seats than the older regional ones CEO regional frames C16 and 114 steerage compared to just 12 Club/business and 122 steerage in the NEO !

The NEO can be considered rather less premium !

[Rutan16]

" Looking at the airline's website the only seating configuration given for the A320 is 12J and 122Y for a total of 134 seats, about 100 fewer than the type is capable of carrying."

maybe carrying freight or "special" people in the rest of the plane?

Its an A320 Neo not the A338 !

That said wouldn't be at all surprised if one of three A338s are used from time to time; these have C32Y203 and a massive cargo uplift over the narrow body models.

[Navpi]

https://www.magproperty.co.uk/building/airport-city-manchester-2/

"Airport City Manchester is one of the most connected, intelligent and enterprising business destinations in development today. The site will be 5 million sq ft. of offices, hotels, advanced manufacturing, logistics facilities, hybrid and ancillary retail space.

Airport City Manchester is one of the most exciting business destinations in development today and one of the most significant in the UK since the 2012 Olympic Park. Airport City’s uniqueness lies in its versatility offering offices, logistics & hotels and benefits from unrivalled connectivity to the world".

____________________________________

Does anyone know where we are with this, looking out from the T3 car Park we have a few warehouses to the South primarily for trucked freight, but where are the offices and hotels that were envisaged re Airport City.

There is a vast area to the North of Olympic House which is now just scrubland.

I appreciate we have lost 2 years re the pandemic and 80% of the passenger traffic but these are expected to return in 18 months, is there any hint of any large infastructure development going ahead in this area so that Manchester is best placed for the upturn when it surely comes ?

We also still seem to have two large empty hangers which again is a real wasted opportunity for good quality hi tech engineering jobs.

[SWBKCB]

If you look south from the T3 car park you're looking across the runway towards Styal, and you'll not see much development...

To the west is the 'new' area of warehouses (Amazon etc) on the far side of the A538 Wilmslow Road.

I always understood Airport City was going to be north of the A555 Airport Relief Road were Regus and Costains are. Wasn't there meant to be big Chinese investment which never materialised?

[Navpi]

The Chinese were involved but I thought The Hut Group had taken over this mantle in terms of becoming the landlord for the area and development of their own HQ as well as peripheral investment in hotels, retail etc.

Did they also buy the airport hangars ?

There were plans for their own dedicated freight operation but that seems to be in limbo.

We also had a thriving repaint and refurb operation with Air Livery, I'm at a loss as to why they moved out taking 100+ jobs with them. New lease ?

Aircraft engineering repaint and refurbishment seems to be flourishing elsewhere and from what i can gather they were thriving.

There was also that curious FOSUN tweet before Christmas suggesting they might have plans for the TCX hangar but that seems to have come to nothing.

I'm unsure who owns what ?

[UnderASouthernSky]

I believe the 2 under construction hotels located next to T2 are part of Airport City. They are probably where you should be looking if you want to find "hangers".

[LFC22]

Did Manchester Airport's website go down or something? All arrivals page show "refer to airline" Not very helpful at all.

[MANFOD]

Manchester Arrivals:
If you click on the arrow on the rt hand side after details, it should come up with 'arrival' and the latest estimate which may be different to the scheduled time.

[chaps1954]

LFC22 If you have problem with Manchester use FR24 arrivals

[DomyDom]

Norwegian: Manchester - Trondheim twice weekly from 15 August.
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/norwegian-air-shuttle/norwegian-launches-flights-between-manchester-uk-and-trondheim-norway/

[Lancaster Bomber]

"Kuwait Airways will now serve Manchester 3 weekly, with new times: KU113 KWI 0630 MAN 1145KU114 MAN 1245 KWI 2125 Tue/Thu/Sun with A32N. Thanks to Pete for highlighting"

Above text copied from and credited to SPD Travels on Twitter.

[HOVIS]

Must have realised no one wanted to cover that at midnight.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Must have realised no one wanted to cover that at midnight.

"DO NOT DISTURB"

The new spirit of Manchester Airport!

Freighters. Diversions. Now night flights.

[HOVIS]

"DO NOT DISTURB"

The new spirit of Manchester Airport!

Freighters. Diversions. Now night flights.
As has been mentioned before. Lack of staff. Unless you are suggesting that people should be working 24hr shifts?

[OzzyOzBorn]

I have probably thousands of night-shifts at MAN to my credit. None of them lasted 24 hours.

[SCFC1EP]

Realistic times now on Kuwait similar times to Emirates/Qatar/Etihad and for any onwards connections from Kuwait may be a lot smaller in terms of the big 3
4am arrival 5am departure from MAN would not have won passengers over from the big 3

Plenty of flights operate through the night at MAN especially in the summer months, winter months there's no need to operate at unsociable hours there's just not the demand

[OzzyOzBorn]

Agree with you, SCFC1EP. There will be a programme of night flights at MAN as usual in S22. My actual point was to highlight the culture of negativity which has become rife across certain departments at MAN, far in excess of that seen at other UK airports of size. Yet pay and conditions at those competing airports are similar to those at MAN. We need rid of the instinctive "no can do" attitude which has infected many areas of the airport operation (from the top down in the case of diversions, cargo flights etc.). Naturally, I do welcome sociable timings for the new Kuwait Airways operation. Very good news.

[SWBKCB]

So are you saying that the flight was moved at MAN's instigation?

[OzzyOzBorn]

So are you saying that the flight was moved at MAN's instigation?

Not sure if this is intended for me, but if so, the answer is no. I have no inside track on decision-making processes at Kuwait Airways. My post was addressing negative sentiments expressed by HOVIS.

[Navpi]

DO NOT DISTURB

Did Manchester dissuade a Lufthansa A350 yesterday.

There were rumours circulating Friday with ops of a Luthansa A350 stopping briefly Mexico City - Munich for a crew swappover organised by the LH area manager. All the logistics were in place at 9am Saturday for a 1600 arrival but fortunately for MAG it ended up in Brussels.

[Curious Pax]

DO NOT DISTURB

Did Manchester dissuade a Lufthansa A350 yesterday.

There were rumours circulating Friday with ops of a Luthansa A350 stopping briefly Mexico City - Munich for a crew swappover organised by the LH area manager. All the logistics were in place at 9am Saturday for a 1600 arrival but fortunately for MAG it ended up in Brussels.

Or, in a less paranoid world, either fuel or crew hours (assuming the diversion was for one of those reasons) as the flight went on proved to be acceptable to get a bit further towards Munich by going into Brussels. There are more flights from Lufthansa bases to Brussels, plus much easier surface transport. A drive up from Frankfurt is logistically a lot easier than relying on a single connecting flight. The Hotel costs for a full A350 if things went wrong would not be insignificant.

A diversion into MAN would have arrived about 2pm. Munich flights got in around 1020 and 1655, so either a long wait for the crew, or one for the passengers. Brussels timings were a lot closer in both respects.





A

[SWBKCB]

So you have no inside track on decision-making processes at Lufthansa, but prefer to assume that it was dissuaded by MAG?

Hopefully somebody will be along to address these negative sentiments shortly! :ok:

[Navpi]

Please reread I did actually pose the question

"Did Manchester dissuade"

Maybe the plan changed internally and it was swapped to Brussels based on other operational criteria.

I did state that it was highly fortunate for Manchester that it didn't actually arrive given limitations on space and staff based on comments by Hovis.

[HOVIS]

Not sure if this is intended for me, but if so, the answer is no. I have no inside track on decision-making processes at Kuwait Airways. My post was addressing negative sentiments expressed by HOVIS.
Ah, I see. My opinions, based on day to day airside observations, are 'negative sentiments'. 😁

Have a look at the departure boards over the last few days and ask yourself why so many aircraft are leaving late.
There simply are not enough staff currently on site to cope with the increasing passenger and cargo numbers.
T&Cs have been cut, pay has been reduced or simply not kept pace with inflation. People don't want to work here any more.

[SWBKCB]

It wasn't a diversion even though it was apparently treated as such.

I understood it was pre planned well in advance as a scheduled stop over !

There could have been a million and one reasons why it ended up in BRU, the home airport of a Lufthansa group airline, but you chose to assume it is MAG's fault?

[BA318]

Ah, I see. My opinions, based on day to day airside observations, are 'negative sentiments'. 😁

Have a look at the departure boards over the last few days and ask yourself why so many aircraft are leaving late.
There simply are not enough staff currently on site to cope with the increasing passenger and cargo numbers.
T&Cs have been cut, pay has been reduced or simply not kept pace with inflation. People don't want to work here any more.

Aparently staff at Menzies have had a nice pay deal agreed. Most of the LHR staff were reported as getting a £3k bonus and pay rises between 6-7% and I heard similar across their network.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Unfortunately, MAN does seem to be labouring under a culture of negativity, and comments by HOVIS do continue to reflect this. The handling agencies seem particularly badly affected, yet the fallout appears limited to MAN whilst their counterparts at other UK airports - on similar pay and conditions - seem willing to go the extra mile.

Perhaps MAG takes the view that handling agency staff - not MAG employees - are outside their remit. But they really do need to be taking action. This general climate of negativity is cancerous. And unfortunately, the problem does seem to extend across some of MAG's own departments as well. Persistent rejection of cargo flights and the seemingly permanent 'No Divs NOTAM' are symptomatic of this.

Karen Smart has been in post for a while now, so she must be up to speed by this point. It would be interesting to know how she is moving to address rock-bottom staff morale across affected MAG departments and those of essential agency partners. Sweeping away the culture of negativity specific to this airport needs to be a priority for her. Traffic at MAN has been beyond devastated by COVID, yet her staff appear to regard every piece of new business turned away as a victory to be celebrated. This has to change.

[HOVIS]

Aparently staff at Menzies have had a nice pay deal agreed. Most of the LHR staff were reported as getting a £3k bonus and pay rises between 6-7% and I heard similar across their network.
Nice, I heard Swissport staff are being offered triple time to work extra hours.

[techair]

Having watched the rush to the bottom with handling agents over many years is it any wonder staff morale across all levels is so low. It seems to me that the HA companies have only themselves to blame as it was they who petitioned to get rid of the RHSL monopoly and allow competition, another case of being careful what you wish for.
I think that MAG at MAN have tried very hard to be all things to all airlines, agents concessions et al, this philosophy also hasn’t worked too well.
A lot more focus and clever management is required by senior people.

[LFC22]

Any whispers about more airlines moving over to T2? Not had any move over for a few months now

[HOVIS]

Er, T2 is full.

[irishlad06]

Any whispers about more airlines moving over to T2? Not had any move over for a few months now

some operations are moving back to T1 as it is that full.

[The96er]

Who’s moving back ? I’ve not heard of anyone pencilled in to move back.

[MANFAN]

some operations are moving back to T1 as it is that full.

Which operations/airlines are moving back to T1?
I find this hard to believe...T2 is only full overnight ready for the first morning wave of flights from based airlines TUI and Jet2.
KLM, Brussels Airlines and Air France also have aircraft based in T2 overnight.

I'm sure airlines will want to avoid yet another terminal move so soon after settling into T2! And I'm sure MAG/MAN will be of the same thinking too!

[MANFAN]

Any whispers about more airlines moving over to T2? Not had any move over for a few months now

I believe once the 2nd pier (B) is complete (around 2024/25) more airlines will move over to T2. With the exception of Easyjet, I expect most of the remaining airlines currently in T1 will move out: Turkish, SAS, Finnair, Lufthansa, Swiss, Austrian, Air Transat, Aer Lingus (domestic/CTA flights).
Emirates will have to wait for the 3rd Pier (C) to be built.
Biman and Hanian are also in T1...but no doubt they will also move over at some point, given the fact Biman only operate 2 weekly flights and Hanian is of course not operating to MAN right now due to the travel restrictions from China.

[Mr A Tis]

Is there a firm date for T3 to re-open?

[irishlad06]

Who’s moving back ? I’ve not heard of anyone pencilled in to move back.

Apparently Jet2 moving some of their operation back to T1 due to having 25 based aircraft this summer.

[MANFAN]

Is there a firm date for T3 to re-open?

Management are supposedly meeting early next month to make a final decision...but no definite date on possible re-opening as of yet.

In my view it makes sense to re-open T3 given the increase in based Ryanair aircraft and movements/passengers this coming summer season.

[MANFAN]

Apparently Jet2 moving some of their operation back to T1 due to having 25 based aircraft this summer.

I haven't heard about this...but it would be a backwards step. After all MAG/MAN and Jet2 have known for some months now how many based aircraft would be operating during the summer season.
There are 13 new remote stands as part of the T2 TP (first phase). Between all the TUI and Jet2 based aircraft, there should be enough space for all their aircraft between: Legacy T2 stands, Pier A stands, new remote stands and existing western apron stands. I count around 40 stands across these areas.

[HOVIS]

Remote stands are not the issue, its the number of contact stands that at the moment are insufficient. Judging by the amount of towing going on anyway.

[MANFAN]

Remote stands are not the issue, its the number of contact stands that at the moment are insufficient. Judging by the amount of towing going on anyway.

Yes I can see how contact stands would be an issue in T2...however, Pier B at T2 (gates B1-B14) are already in use for the new remote stands. This has been constructed as a bussing lounge/Pier and is the first phase of Pier B.
Jet2 have staggered departures in the morning from 6-11am...so after the first wave of departures (post 8AM) there is then sufficient contact stands to tow aircraft for the mid morning/lunchtime departures.

Over in T1 both piers are full overnight with Easyjet, Ryanair and the two Lufthansa...I fail to see how moving some ops over to T1 would change anything.

[Mark J Bowcock]

How many more aircraft are Ryanair basing? I went through T1 last Friday and it was heaving! Great to see it getting busy again but I’m not sure it will cope in the summer! T3 needs to be reopened and soon!

[chaps1954]

I think 20 based plus a consideralble visiting total

[MANFAN]

How many more aircraft are Ryanair basing? I went through T1 last Friday and it was heaving! Great to see it getting busy again but I’m not sure it will cope in the summer! T3 needs to be reopened and soon!

Based on current slots booked:
Ryanair 19, Easyjet 20, TUI 19 and Jet2 25.

A decision on re-opening of T3 will happen beginning of March. I expect it to re-open but passengers will most likely feed from T1, so check in & security and immigration & baggage reclaim will all be T1 based...unless MAG have a sudden surge of recruitment and manage to acquire enough staff to adequately have all of these facilities in all three terminals...

[MANFOD]

Based on current slots booked:
Ryanair 19, Easyjet 20, TUI 19 and Jet2 25
..

I've not seen any update yet to the initial Slot report for MAN in which mention was made of 19 Ryanair based a/c for S22. However, some of the slots offered (about 10% as I recall) were more than 30 minutes, and most of those more than an hour, outside requested times which may not have been acceptable, terminal capacity presumably being the restraint. From memory, a small percentage of slots for Ryanair and Ryanir UK were not allocated at all. It's possible after the return deadline for slots, better timings may have become available. However, a figure I have heard mentioned more recently is 15 based which would be 3 more a/c rather than the 7 in the report.

It was reported a while back that easyjet were basing an extra 2 aircraft at MAN for the summer. If it was 17 previously (can anyone confirm?), that would take it to 19 if those plans still stand.

[Seljuk22]

easyjet confirmed 20 for next summer:
The Manchester base will be larger than ever with 20 aircraft based there connecting the North-West to key cities and holidays destinations across Europe.
https://mediacentre.easyjet.com/story/15303/easyjet-recruitment-drive-underway-for-1500-cabin-crew-for-summer-2022-ramp-up

[HOVIS]

Biman returning to 3/week. STA 1815,STD 2000.

[SWBKCB]

TUI 787 just diverted into MAN due wx at LGW

[Dorking]

Does anyone have any information when the two new proposed Holiday Inn Hotels, adjacent to T2 are due to open...Thanks

[MANFOD]

TUI 787 just diverted into MAN due wx at LGW

According to reports from various sources, we also took an easyjet from LGW and a Ryanair from STN. Finally we accepted a Jet 2 from LBA sometime after 1am. I can only personally vouch for the TOM015 at a time I was watching FR24, but that's not to say the others didn't arrive.
Unless fuel emergencies were being declared in those cases, it would appear the airfield duty manager and the handling agents were allowed a little flexibility despite the ongoing No-Divs notam.

In the afternoon & early evening, MAN had plenty of its own go-arounds and lost a few flights that diverted away. Sometimes, that seemed to be due to wind shear problems on final approach rather than wind direction, speed and gusts being outside an aircraft's limit. Wind shear does appear to be more of an issue at MAN over the many years I've taken an interest.

[seahawks]

Dual operations from 4th April.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

According to reports from various sources, we also took an easyjet from LGW and a Ryanair from STN. Finally we accepted a Jet 2 from LBA sometime after 1am

The Jet2 was the Prague flight, landed just after 1am.

[azz767]

Looks like MAN’s lost 3 flights already this morning.

TUI max went to LHR with EI neo and QR 77W going to BHX.

[chaps1954]

Probably more like 6 as EUKA330 a RYR and I think one more have headed away but plenty is getting in
including Loganair EMB but its the crosswind that is the problem plus gusts of upto 50Knots

[DP.]

Probably more like 6 as EUKA330 a RYR and I think one more have headed away but plenty is getting in
including Loganair EMB but its the crosswind that is the problem plus gusts of upto 50Knots

I believe we're now up to 9 today;

BY219 (LHR)
QR21 (BHX)
EI930 (NCL)
EI44 (BHX)
VS363 (LHR)
FR552 (BHX)
EI202 (DUB)
FR1592 (STN)
FR8307 (EMA)

There were a couple yesterday evening too;

FR556 (EMA)
GR678 (LPL)

[chaps1954]

Thank god it is easing now some have returned EUK A321 and QTR from BHX and EUK A330 is pinging on ground at NCL
The 2 Pegasus did best thing sat on ground at SAW and AYT but are now on way

[eggc]

Apologies if old news, but not seen it myself...

Gulf Air to start MAN service in June with 789's twice weekly.

https://bahrainexcellence.org/gulf-air-announces-launch-of-flights-to-rome-milan-nice-and-manchester-in-june/?fbclid=IwAR1o9j0N4XyPgz136vVM6xCVrtS3H5C2t1LCmvWJ00CZKiIPSE mVic_joZc

[SWBKCB]

"There are far worse things happening in the world now but, I'm stood in a more than 200m queue to get into arrivals at Manchester airport," he said. "Heard a member of staff on the phone say "you'll have to stop people getting off, there's nowhere for them to go."

MEN - Pictures show chaos at Manchester Airport as passengers complain of 'mile long queues' (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/pictures-show-chaos-manchester-airport-23216587)

[BACsuperVC10]

MEN - Pictures show chaos at Manchester Airport as passengers complain of 'mile long queues' (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/pictures-show-chaos-manchester-airport-23216587)

God help the arriving passengers there. Dreadful.

[eggc]

God help the arriving passengers there. Dreadful.

God's help needed for people that it takes an hour to leave an airport...give over man...gods help is needed elsewhere right now and those that had the huge life changing experience of taking an hour to leave an airport will be just fine I am sure.

[HOVIS]

Any diverts in due to the problems at LHR/BA.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

God help the arriving passengers there. Dreadful.
A friend of mine gave me his summary of the article:The M.E.N. does delight in these headlines.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/pictures-show-chaos-manchester-airport-23216587

But why do they bother to quote a passenger with something that's obviously drivel like this: -

One said the queues are currently the length of the T1 departure pier - which he estimates to be around a mile long.

Someone else mentioned 200m which may or may not be nearer the mark.

While someone expected to be delayed for hours, another complained that luggage still hadn't arrived after 37 minutes to get through passport control. Not great but hardly hours.

MAN apologised but referred passengers who wished to complain to contact Border Control.

Nevertheless there was obviously a problem, hopefully only for a short period with a raft of flights arriving close together.

[MANFOD]

The poor quality of reporting with this type of M.E.N. article is just as bad as the inane comments of some of the passengers.
BACsuperVC10 is of course a well known contributor on the Liverpool thread so I'm not surprised he couldn't resist a dig at MAN.
I do hope, however, that staffing issues at MAN are being addressed and resolved, be it their own departments, Border Control or Handling Agents.

[SWBKCB]

Everybody else's fault expect MAG's again? and responding with 'here's a link to Border Forces complaints proceedure'? :rolleyes:

If these stories appear in the MEN with monotonous regularity what's being done to remove the problem at source (whichs seems to have been around for years?) or to engage with the MEN about how they report the stories?

[BACsuperVC10]

The poor quality of reporting with this type of M.E.N. article is just as bad as the inane comments of some of the passengers.
BACsuperVC10 is of course a well known contributor on the Liverpool thread so I'm not surprised he couldn't resist a dig at MAN.
I do hope, however, that staffing issues at MAN are being addressed and resolved, be it their own departments, Border Control or Handling Agents.

Yes I contribute to the LPL thread, and use that airport often, and sometimes MAN , but I don't see what that has to do with anything. Bad service is bad service, simple as that.

[BACsuperVC10]

God's help needed for people that it takes an hour to leave an airport...give over man...gods help is needed elsewhere right now and those that had the huge life changing experience of taking an hour to leave an airport will be just fine I am sure.

Oh so its just fine and dandy, Im sure those stuck there might feel differently .

[Rutan16]

Austerity cuts by a previous local MP for more than a decade, resulting in reduced border agents; several changes in both policy and structure by Mrs May, including the hostile environment moving officers away from the frontier to locate collect process, and imprison illegal workers.
Brexit and hardened frontiers checking ALL passports on entry, COVID economic and health impacts.
End of freedom of movement and zilch spent to prepare half a decade since the referendum.
This is the new reality of isolated Britain and learn to live with it . Britain’s official frontiers currently resemble US of a decade ago !
This is a national issue and it’s also experienced at Heathrow and Gatwick .
As an immediate impact through local managers at the border agency are directly responsible for the day to day hour by hour problems including rosters.
Given that the border agencies and intelligence agencies do have advanced access to manifests and schedules they should be better able to manage supply and demand through.
Very definitely a local problem however other than pressure of words what can MAG do can’t exactly raise an ITT for an alternative supplier or framework contract can they.
Now different matter land side departure security I give that !

[lfc84]

ather than people claiming there's a bias for or against any particular airport, i think it would be sensible to reflect upon:

- which airport(s) are in the press
- how oftern they are in the press
- what are the issues being reported

A week ago I deprted from MAN T1. Security queue was around 5 mins (around 11am).
Yesterday I landed at another MAG airport - STN - I paid for fast track passport control but had I not I estimate the queue would have been around 5-10 mins.

I was dreading MAN security queue but as it happened it was a non event. Arriving into MAN has always been rather slow in my opinion (pre pandemic) so I do actively try to avoid MAN international arrivals. That said my longest ever UK international arrival was from LIS two years ago into LHR T2 - which took around 70 minutes.

This morning I departed from LGW. The app said security queue was 7 mins. We opted for the family queue and it took 20 mins (bad choice!).
Monday I will be flying from BRS

[JerseyAero]

A recent experience of T1 check-in/departures was very poor after some technical problem had caused the baggage conveyor behind the check-in desks to stop working. That left hundreds of passengers to manoeuvre their bags into the small belt next to security with each bag having to be manually checked. Some passengers were told to go downstairs to the RYR check-in area to deposit their bags but after queuing there were then told to go back upstairs to the conveyor next to security, with little direction from anyone as to which was the correct queue. The check in staff did say that this was not a one off problem with the baggage system.

This also resulted in a knock on effect at security where there were very long queues. All in all a very miserable 2 hour experience until reaching the departure hall.

I appreciate that MAG will be reluctant to spend anything on T1 infrastructure but the terminal really is dreadful now and the sight of a line of buckets to capture rainwater along the walkway towards the station really sums it up.

[CabinCrewe]

£100 of all EI MAN US routes until start of summer timetable. I’m guessing there are a lot of empty seats…

[Shamrock350]

£100 of all EI MAN US routes until start of summer timetable. I’m guessing there are a lot of empty seats…
There probably is but they've been doing these kind of sales regularly for years, Dublin had the exact offer a few weeks back so it appears to be accross the board.

JFK at least seems to have had a notable and sustained uptick in loads since the February half term.

[cumbrianboy]

I'd say it's more like a PR campaign and awareness building exercise. As has been said, all airlines offer seat sales at key times in the year. The loads are healthy and improving and remember these routes are a few months old and launched in Covid ... from what I have seen they are doing very well indeed.

[HOVIS]

£100 OFF.
Fixed it for you. 😁

[ICEHOUSES]

Forty minutes to pass through T1 security yesterday afternoon, (departures A ryanair) only a few scanners operating, still way behind the standards of other similar sized airports.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

If you follow the airport on Twitter then you will be aware that they appear to be having problems recruiting Security staff - there are very nearly daily posts highlighting vacancies.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Forty minutes to pass through T1 security yesterday afternoon

That’s not bad at the moment, you did well.

Many departments at the airport laid staff off when Covid struck and they are still trying to get back to pre pandemic staffing levels. Security staffing is still well below what is required therefore only a few scanners can be manned.

it should also be said that the situation isn’t helped by passengers who still haven’t managed to get the hang of getting prepared before they arrive at the scanners.

[eye2eye5]

If there are passengers who still haven’t managed to get the hang of being prepared before they arrive at the scanners, then it’s reasonable to assume that they never will be. Staffing and processes should recognise that. Security is an ongoing issue at MAN, employing absolutely anyone on minimum wage will do nothing to address that.

[OzzyOzBorn]

It's a combination of luck and the time you pass through. Outbound through T2 security today (1st) there was no delay at all for me. Straight through. Staff chatty and friendly as well; they often get a bad rap on here.

Returned through T1 just after midnight. Probably a couple of minutes queue at UK Border. All went very smoothly. Staff there were very friendly as well.

I'm aware that these departments have difficult moments, but we should acknowledge that there are also long periods where everything goes to plan. I couldn't fault the airport staff today. Top notch. Likewise aboard TUI (out) and EasyJet (back).

[Curious Pax]

Completely unscientific sample size, but I expected getting to T1 at 5am this morning would mean a fair sized queue (even pre covid) given there are now a lot of first wave departures. A bit shocked to be through in 9 minutes!

Security staff were perfectly civil, and looked like most if not all lanes were open.

Edit: the BA Heathrow flight going from gate 15 is just weird!!!

[Dct_Mopas]

The security staffing is seemingly the same every day. So generally it’s been ok on on weekdays outside school holidays. However on weekends (and during the whole of the February half term) the queues and delays have been big.

Also, come the last week of this month, the summer schedules start for many of the airlines. The number of operated flights takes a sudden upturn. Not entirely sure how Terminal 1 will cope as it’s already been at full capacity during peak times (with regards to seating, security, queues out the door at all food premises etc).

[mmeteesside]

Yes I departed through T1 last Friday evening and it was 45 minutes to get through security then. Staff were trying their best and all polite etc but can’t help but feel the queuing system isn’t the best where they break up 2 queues into 4/5 scanners then merge them back together again. Just leads to frustration when it barely moves, when you get closer to the scanners it moves fairly well.

[MANFAN]

Completely unscientific sample size, but I expected getting to T1 at 5am this morning would mean a fair sized queue (even pre covid) given there are now a lot of first wave departures. A bit shocked to be through in 9 minutes!

Security staff were perfectly civil, and looked like most if not all lanes were open.

Edit: the BA Heathrow flight going from gate 15 is just weird!!!

Yes indeed…security seems to be hit and miss in the week at times.

Ref the BA flights at T1 stands/gates at the moment, this is due to work being done inside T3…maybe an indication it might reopen…

[MANFAN]

The security staffing is seemingly the same every day. So generally it’s been ok on on weekdays outside school holidays. However on weekends (and during the whole of the February half term) the queues and delays have been big.

Also, come the last week of this month, the summer schedules start for many of the airlines. The number of operated flights takes a sudden upturn. Not entirely sure how Terminal 1 will cope as it’s already been at full capacity during peak times (with regards to seating, security, queues out the door at all food premises etc).

We hopefully this week get confirmation from MAG that T3 will hopefully reopen at the end of March…this would coincide with the airlines summer schedules starting.
Ryanair would then move back to T3 to give T1 some breathing space…

[Dorking]

We hopefully this week get confirmation from MAG that T3 will hopefully reopen at the end of March…this would coincide with the airlines summer schedules starting.
Ryanair would then move back to T3 to give T1 some breathing space…

Just wondering though where the new staff/security for T3 would come from. They seem to be desperately short of such staff...Robbing Peter to pay Paul would not help at all..

[HOVIS]

https://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/recruitment/
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1120x2000/screenshot_20220302_115226_c5cf8237ec71f03ee3e4aed27ef397c21 5de15bd.png

[eye2eye5]

Thank you, HOVIS. QED……£12.04 includes a 22.5% shift allowance. Poor recompense for unsocial hours.

[MANFOD]

Perhaps with the possibility of fuel stop flights in mind, MAN has eased the No-Divs notam for March.NOTAM A1795/22: Manchester Airport (EGCC)​A1795/22 NOTAMN
Q) EGTT/QFALT/IV/NBO/A /000/999/5321N00217W005
A) EGCC B) 2202282359 C) 2203312359
E) INBOUND DIVERSIONS MAY BE ACCEPTED, SUBJECT TO CONFIRMATION THAT GROUND HANDLING SERVICES ARE AVAILABLE FOR THE FLIGHT.
CREATED: 28 Feb 2022 17:26:00 SOURCE: EUECYIYN

[MANFAN]

Just wondering though where the new staff/security for T3 would come from. They seem to be desperately short of such staff...Robbing Peter to pay Paul would not help at all..

Very good question…there was talk of continuing to filter passengers through T1 for security/ departures, whilst also using T3 gates with all airside open and on arrival use T3 as normal for immigration and baggage. This would create an absolute nightmare for queues in T1 given the increase in Ryanair and EasyJet departures this summer season!
Also confusing for passengers departing and arriving into different terminals!

I personally think all of T3 will reopen and passengers will unfortunately have to put up with long queues and waits at both ends of their journey’s during peak times until MAG can recruit and train enough security staff.
Whilst Immigration is down to the Border Force (or government).

[OzzyOzBorn]

The relaxation of the 'No-Divs' NOTAM is a very welcome step in the right direction for reasons previously discussed, whether motivated by fuel-stops or not. But one effect of it will be that a company such as self-handling Jet2 will enjoy the opportunity to make the call re handling their own diverted flights, a good thing. And executive jet traffic (which might be easily accommodated on the day) will be able to ask the question, instead of being barred from even enquiring by default ... they were collateral damage. It will be interesting to note whether handling agents in general are game for accepting some additional work ... we'll see.

[SWBKCB]

Delays at arrivals lead story on the MEN website, again - I'll not bother posingt the link, you've seen it before...

Anybody want to guess what the quote from the MAG spokesperson is?

[AircraftOperations]

Delays at arrivals lead story on the MEN website, again - I'll not bother posingt the link, you've seen it before...

Anybody want to guess what the quote from the MAG spokesperson is?

Surely it should be the quote from the Border Force spokesperson that should be of more interest, if it was delays at immigration?

[Rutan16]

Surely it should be the quote from the Border Force spokesperson that should be of more interest, if it was delays at immigration?

ABSOLUTELY SO !!! and similarly at Gatwick a few days ago.

Once again frontier can’t manage peaks and troughs which are Well known in advance !

THIS IS A NATIONAL PROBLEM DIRECTLY LINKED TO GOVERNMENTAL POLICY AND THEIR INEPTITUDE

[SWBKCB]

And how long has that been the case? Something isn't working, yet MAG and others just seem to carry on doing the same thing and trotting out the same old photocopied statement every time it happens.

[commit aviation]

I'm not sure what you would expect MAG to do. Border Force is a government agency. They don't have an option to change service provider.
I am certain they will be making their feelings known to BF about the level of service provided at all levels but beyond that I see no solution within their gift.
There are areas where MAG do have control of their own destiny and rightly should be held to account but I don't think immigration is one of them.

[Mr A Tis]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the majority of the arrival delays (2hr+) at the baggage claim? (Not Border Force)

[The96er]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the majority of the arrival delays (2hr+) at the baggage claim? (Not Border Force)

There's one handling agent that is having significant staffing issues at present in which M.A.G are very concerned about going into the Summer schedule.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Can I suggest that you email Border Force at:

[email protected]

I'm not saying that the airport is totally blameless, however this needs to be flagged to the Border Force as often as possible.