Manchester-3

[commit aviation]

Ozzy: some interesting assessments
I wonder if the construction work on T2 is leading to the airport being cautious around growth?
I don't know, but after the negative press last year, they might conclude it is better to restrain capacity and avoid over-promising.

[Una Due Tfc]

Regarding Ryanair, I read elsewhere that there’s uncertainty over how many Max deliveries they’ll get prior to the Summer. Initially they were promised over 60, whereas now Boeing are indicating somewhere between 30 and 45. MOL told investors that as a result they may have to hold off on announcing some new routes until 4 weeks prior to launch as that’s when they’ll know for certain if they’ll have the required airframes or not.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Thanks, Una Due Tfc. That would certainly make sense. And it is far better that late delivery of new aircraft be the reason for any reduced expansion rather than dissatisfaction with the base for some other reason.

[HOVIS]

Is it true that T1 will be demolished when the building work is complete? And if so, what is planned for the land currently occupied by T1?
T2 will be extended to the east. One big terminal about twice the size of the current T2 but with about 8 piers extending from it.

[HOVIS]

Had a dropoff at T2 few days ago, just seen the newly built Holiday Inn and Ibis Budget right next to it, as well as another hotel called Tribe being built. This is in addition to Clayton, Doubletree, Radisson Blu and Premier Inn. Surely this is overkill?
There has to be enough capacity to house a couple of plane loads of pax in the event a technical or weather problem hits.

[LBAflyer22]

I'm starting to fear that S23 will be 'just OK' versus S22 rather than stellar. The programmes of the four main short-haul based carriers will be crucial. We need healthy growth from Ryanair, EasyJet, Jet2 and TUI.
.

According to the Jet2 forum MAN will see 3x A330. And if you believe what they say, one will have 388 customers on board. Coupled with is it 5/6 757 in operation daily and 2/3/4 A321's I suspect Jet2 will assist with growth. I agree it won't be a whole 189 seats, but a healthy additional 60 here, 40 there etc all helps.

[RVF750]

From what I was originally told the current T2 will become the only terminal eventually. Think, of your right hand. Pier 1 is your pinky. The Stub that will be Pier 2 is your Ring finger and Pier 3 would come from the end of the current T2 and extend out to the end of T1's rotunda. The Index Finger will go right through the main T1 real estate and the Thumb is where Ryanair lives now in T3. We now have a Westward extension to the original T2, Pier 1 and a stub used for bussing where Pier 2 should be going.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Thanks, LBAflyer22.

Jet2 is one of the four bellweather carriers which portend the tone for the forthcoming season at MAN, the others being Ryanair (RYR/RUK/LDA), EasyJet (EZY/EJU) and TUI (TOM). If all of these show a healthy increase in capacity at start of season, then things look good.

In ACL's initial coordination report for S23, Jet2 was shown to hold 17,283 slots representing 3,871,873 seats. Since then, there has been a further update showing 16,606 slots held for the season, though I have not seen the commensurate number for reduction in seats.

This compares with Summer '22 numbers of 16,125 slots held representing 3,468,653 seats in that year's start of season ACL report.

That would indicate Jet2 offering 403,220 additional seats based on the initial filing, but we see that 677 slots seem to have been deducted since then. Whilst a larger aircraft is expected to be in the mix, some reduction from the original +403,220 should be anticipated. However, an increase in seats offered over the S22 total still looks a safe bet. I will await the next ACL report with interest.

Of course, the benchmark year most of us would like to see surpassed is pre-covid 2019.

The MAT (Moving Annual Total) for the 12 months to September 2019 (the peak of recorded stats at MAN prior to numbers falling away, then plunging) were reported as:

PAX Terminal & Transit: 29,510,599
Movements: 204,178
Freight & Mail: 113,248 Tonnes.

By comparison, the latest reported MAT's for the 12 months to the end of January 2023 are:

PAX Terminal & Transit: 24,310,746
Movements: 162,480
Freight & Mail: 65,460 Tonnes.

From these numbers, we see that MAN must recover a further 5,199,853 pax within the MAT in order to re-enter record territory.

The month of February 2022 was still amidst full covid recession; things began to change in March. April was the first "normal" month. So February and March 2023 numbers should again make decent inroads into that shortfall. However, from April onwards we start to compare months with more like-for-like conditions, so the rate of incremental gains will slow to the kind of percentages we became accustomed to in pre-covid years. Obviously, it would be great if positive momentum can be maintained once we hit that point, but as discussed earlier, bumper business is far from assured with some markets not back at scale, and the public dealing with the soaring cost of living and possible recession. In the leisure market, the risk is that operators will consolidate capacity if the bookings don't come rolling in at the volumes hoped for.

The 2019 movements total was disproportionately boosted by the high number of FlyBe movements using smaller types. We will probably face a long wait to break any movements records at MAN going forward.

The abject cargo number is the inevitable endgame of MAG's "Anywhere but Manchester" policy. There is no hope of meaningful recovery in that sector for as long as MAG persist with the current strategy. There should be a rise in tonnage as more capacity returns to long-haul services offering belly-hold space, but MAN now has NO scheduled cargo services whatsoever since the loss of the short-lived Lufthansa A321F service. I believe that this is the first time in my lifetime that MAN has had ZERO scheduled freighter services - and I'm absolutely ancient! Joking aside, it is sad to see such a situation - such a dramatic contrast with the cargo heyday of the 2000-2010 period. Still, I'm sure that certain executives will have been handsomely rewarded for switch-selling MAN's freighter throughput to other airports.

Returning to passenger numbers and comparisons with 2019. In that year, Thomas Cook Airlines held 10,097 slots representing 2,441,653 seats for the Summer season alone. The equivalent Summer season numbers for FlyBe were 19,882 slots representing 1,688,548 seats. Naturally, other companies have seen changes too - but these are the really substantial ones. So it is not enough for our remaining stalwart companies to increase over their own 2019 programmes; we need to see the deficits from lost operators backfilled too. And that's why the effort to break out to new highs on passenger throughput may yet prove to be an arduous slog against the backdrop of difficult economic conditions. Will current carriers' programmes advance sufficiently to offset those major players lost to the great hangar in the sky?

[MANFAN]

I am too very surprised Ryanair have yet to announce a new additional aircraft at MAN, along with new routes. But, I have read with interest regarding the difficulties and delays with receiving the required number of 737 Max deliveries...hopefully an announcement will happen soon, ref both new routes and a new based aircraft.
A new route to Toulouse is still in the ACL report...I just hope it comes off!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Shed-on-a-Pole Do we really need "War and Peace" level of posting to ignite the main deck freighter argument yet again? It's been done to the death, there's nothing new to add. It's what airport groups do, BAA were worse. Look at the IAG effect on BA, it drives profits for the shareholders but people who work there often struggle to move on, the business is now part of a larger whole with a strategy of making the best decisions for the group. That cuts costs, drives focus and should allow profits to be reinvested to rebuild the passenger infrastructure. Take a win when you're given one!

[OzzyOzBorn]

Skipness One Echo - If you don't wish to be subjected to my 'War and Peace' postings, I invite you to put me on "Ignore". I'm fine with that.

My comments on cargo actually cover ONE paragraph. Why should I leave cargo out of the 2019 v 2023 stats comparison - and then no doubt stand accused by some on here of glossing over bad news? And there WAS something new to add. This situation which sees MAN left with ZERO scheduled freighter movements is a first in my lifetime and probably well back beyond that. I haven't seen that reported on here previously.

Personally, I don't see zero scheduled cargo flights at MAN as a 'win'. I respect your right to differ.

[Rutan16]

Thanks, LBAflyer22.

Jet2 is one of the four bellweather carriers which portend the tone for the forthcoming season at MAN, the others being Ryanair (RYR/RUK/LDA), EasyJet (EZY/EJU) and TUI (TOM). If all of these show a healthy increase in capacity at start of season, then things look good.

In ACL's initial coordination report for S23, Jet2 was shown to hold 17,283 slots representing 3,871,873 seats. Since then, there has been a further update showing 16,606 slots held for the season, though I have not seen the commensurate number for reduction in seats.

This compares with Summer '22 numbers of 16,125 slots held representing 3,468,653 seats in that year's start of season ACL report.

That would indicate Jet2 offering 403,220 additional seats based on the initial filing, but we see that 677 slots seem to have been deducted since then. Whilst a larger aircraft is expected to be in the mix, some reduction from the original +403,220 should be anticipated. However, an increase in seats offered over the S22 total still looks a safe bet. I will await the next ACL report with interest.

Of course, the benchmark year most of us would like to see surpassed is pre-covid 2019.

The MAT (Moving Annual Total) for the 12 months to September 2019 (the peak of recorded stats at MAN prior to numbers falling away, then plunging) were reported as:

PAX Terminal & Transit: 29,510,599
Movements: 204,178
Freight & Mail: 113,248 Tonnes.

By comparison, the latest reported MAT's for the 12 months to the end of January 2023 are:

PAX Terminal & Transit: 24,310,746
Movements: 162,480
Freight & Mail: 65,460 Tonnes.

From these numbers, we see that MAN must recover a further 5,199,853 pax within the MAT in order to re-enter record territory.

The month of February 2022 was still amidst full covid recession; things began to change in March. April was the first "normal" month. So February and March 2023 numbers should again make decent inroads into that shortfall. However, from April onwards we start to compare months with more like-for-like conditions, so the rate of incremental gains will slow to the kind of percentages we became accustomed to in pre-covid years. Obviously, it would be great if positive momentum can be maintained once we hit that point, but as discussed earlier, bumper business is far from assured with some markets not back at scale, and the public dealing with the soaring cost of living and possible recession. In the leisure market, the risk is that operators will consolidate capacity if the bookings don't come rolling in at the volumes hoped for.

The 2019 movements total was disproportionately boosted by the high number of FlyBe movements using smaller types. We will probably face a long wait to break any movements records at MAN going forward.

The abject cargo number is the inevitable endgame of MAG's "Anywhere but Manchester" policy. There is no hope of meaningful recovery in that sector for as long as MAG persist with the current strategy. There should be a rise in tonnage as more capacity returns to long-haul services offering belly-hold space, but MAN now has NO scheduled cargo services whatsoever since the loss of the short-lived Lufthansa A321F service. I believe that this is the first time in my lifetime that MAN has had ZERO scheduled freighter services - and I'm absolutely ancient! Joking aside, it is sad to see such a situation - such a dramatic contrast with the cargo heyday of the 2000-2010 period. Still, I'm sure that certain executives will have been handsomely rewarded for switch-selling MAN's freighter throughput to other airports.

Returning to passenger numbers and comparisons with 2019. In that year, Thomas Cook Airlines held 10,097 slots representing 2,441,653 seats for the Summer season alone. The equivalent Summer season numbers for FlyBe were 19,882 slots representing 1,688,548 seats. Naturally, other companies have seen changes too - but these are the really substantial ones. So it is not enough for our remaining stalwart companies to increase over their own 2019 programmes; we need to see the deficits from lost operators backfilled too. And that's why the effort to break out to new highs on passenger throughput may yet prove to be an arduous slog against the backdrop of difficult economic conditions. Will current carriers' programmes advance sufficiently to offset those major players lost to the great hangar in the sky?

https://www.pprune.org/11374976-post2241.html

Refers to the switch selling!

MAG has been implicated and a general knuckles slapping has ensued.

[OzzyOzBorn]

How interesting!

[LFC22]

Has the construction of the second pier started? Just wondering if any of the stands between 200-208 would remain operational this Summer

[MANFAN]

Has the construction of the second pier started? Just wondering if any of the stands between 200-208 would remain operational this Summer

I don't know for sure if the construction has actually started on the 2nd pier, but I know the airbridges were or are being removed from stands 209-211.
Stands 201-208 will be in use, as the updated plans for the TP now include these stands in the long term until a 3rd pier is built (which is not expected to be even started until after 2025 at least).
For these stands, the configuration is either 7 narrowbody or 4 widebody capable (only stand 205 does not have an airbridge now, but I don't know if this can be used). Stand 201 is steps access anyway.

[Mr Mac]

Anybody heard that the Munich to Manchester Lufthansa late arrival is being stopped ? I have heard that it is no longer available to book in April.
Thanks in anticipation.
Cheers
Mr Mac

[chaps1954]

I believe they are dropping a number of schedules all over the place I think due shortage of crews

[inOban]

Including EDI for example.

[Sotonsean]

Mr Mac
The attached link will provide you with the information regarding the reduction and increased European schedules from Lufthansa for summer 2023.

www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221220-lhns23eu

​​​​​​ (www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221220-lhns23eu)

[OltonPete]

Mr Mac
The attached link will provide you with the information regarding the reduction and increased European schedules from Lufthansa for summer 2023.

www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221220-lhns23eu

​​​​​​ (www.aeroroutes.com/eng/221220-lhns23eu)

I think the Manchester figure might be wrong in the article as it says 620>614 frequencies but the night-stop is cancelled until 1st August (same with BHX). Although based on some booking engines the BHX figure is underestimated as well

Pete

[MANFAN]

Anybody heard that the Munich to Manchester Lufthansa late arrival is being stopped ? I have heard that it is no longer available to book in April.
Thanks in anticipation.
Cheers
Mr Mac

This then explains why two of my flights I had booked for April & May have been bought forward from arriving around 23:00 to now arriving around 16:30…however, I have opted for a refund as the transfer time in Munich went from 2hrs to 40mins!

A shame they have had to cut this particular flight, I would have thought one of their daytime flights could have been cut instead…that last flight of the day comes in pretty handy! Loads were always mostly full when I flew as well (usually twice a month).

[OltonPete]

This then explains why two of my flights I had booked for April & May have been bought forward from arriving around 23:00 to now arriving around 16:30…however, I have opted for a refund as the transfer time in Munich went from 2hrs to 40mins!

A shame they have had to cut this particular flight, I would have thought one of their daytime flights could have been cut instead…that last flight of the day comes in pretty handy! Loads were always mostly full when I flew as well (usually twice a month).

The problem is the cuts are believed to be due to crew shortages and the Manchester and BHX night-stops crew probably take out the following day tea-time flight (could be mid morning flight) and that is 6 crew out for 18 hours plus hotel costs so it sort of makes commercial sense as it ticks two boxes (night-stop costs and crew availability) but of course it them restricts passenger choice due to layover times as highlighted above and risks giving money to the competition. However KLM and Air France group have their own issues.

At least Star Alliance at Manchester have Brussels Airlines, Swiss, Austrian and SAS as potential alternatives depending on the desired end destination.

Pete

[Mr Mac]

All
Thank you all for the information. I generally use the earlier flight but the late one was the back stop.

Unfortunately I was coming back on the 3rd April so due to change I am now leaving Middle East on an earlier flight in the early hours Sunday, via Frankfurt. Lose a morning relaxation and good flight times for a Red Eye early hours departure. Such is life and travel I guess 🥲

Cheers
Mr Mac

[back to Boeing]

This may be a totally bone head question but you never know. When did Iberia start operating at the airport. Walking through Tatton park earlier and saw one approach. Have to say I’m scratching my head and I can’t say I’ve ever seen Iberia operating in to man.

[AircraftOperations]

This may be a totally bone head question but you never know. When did Iberia start operating at the airport. Walking through Tatton park earlier and saw one approach. Have to say I’m scratching my head and I can’t say I’ve ever seen Iberia operating in to man.
It is. Online media articles says they commenced (as Iberia Express) in September 2015.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

The majority of flights are still operated by Iberia Express.

[toon22]

Iberia were certainly operating in 1986. Chris Browne, later to become MD of TUI was the regional sales manager at that time.

[Sotonsean]

This may be a totally bone head question but you never know. When did Iberia start operating at the airport. Walking through Tatton park earlier and saw one approach. Have to say I’m scratching my head and I can’t say I’ve ever seen Iberia operating in to man.

Prior to Iberia Express opening up a route between Madrid and Manchester in 2015 the airline previously operated scheduled flights to Manchester from both Barcelona and Madrid during the eighties and early nineties.

An example schedule for 1983

​​​​​​IB 346 MAD 15.20 MAN 16.40 357 D9S
IB 347 MAN 17.30 MAD 20.50 357 D9S

During the mid eighties Iberia creased Madrid in favour of Barcelona

An example schedule for 1989

IB 632 BCN 10.15 MAN 11.35 2467 D9S/727
IB 633 MAN 12.30 BCN 15.40 2467 D9S/727

Aviaco flights were also infrequently operated into Manchester by it's parent company Iberia during the eighties and early nineties with a selection of aircraft. Incidentally there are loads of photos online depicting Iberia aircraft at Manchester.

Hopefully you now have no need to "scratch your head" as Iberia are definitely no strangers to Manchester. After all Iberia Express have been operating into Manchester since 2015, that's eight years.

[back to Boeing]

Ok. Probably poorly phrased. I’m sure Iberia would have been in Manchester in the past. I just can’t remember seeing them in recent times and I’ve spent more time at MAN than I care to remember. Both before during and after covid. I honestly can’t remember ever seeing them before. But that’s clearly mea culpa. They appear to do every other day in the afternoon.

[lfc84]

I flew Manchester to Madrid in November 2015

[AircraftOperations]

I flew Manchester to Madrid in November 2015

Great story

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

My first visit in 1991 I am sure Iberia had a DC-9 in, mind you that was in a previous century....

[easyflyer83]

Iberia Mainline operated MAN until the early naughties with the A320.

I think the route probably ended around the time when much of IB at BCN transferred to the Vueling/click.

I seem to remember the route back then being a double drop BCN/MAD though I may well have dreamt that.

[Rutan16]

Iberia/Aviaco visits long predate to 80s !

Go right back to the late 60s, With props DC7 and Constellations through Caravelle, DC-8, DC-9, DC-8 ( super) for Aviaco on inclusive tour ( charters)

Schedules services started with mid seventies and the initial service was indeed three weekly to Madrid and onwards to Malaga with Iberia DC-9s this was supplemented with a further 3 weekly Barcelona and onwards to Madrid service at some point.

With the arrivals of the MD87 the service dropped the Malaga legs and all flights routed via Barcelona for a very long time
Larger MD80s would sometimes operate even Aviaco ones for Iberia ( a reversal on the previous decades). Subsequently the mad dogs were replaced with Airbus models .

Iberia Boeing 727s were always rare at Manchester (through I remember a series of midnight charters at some point ) probably they were considered to premium heavy

The service remained constant ( through times changed) until the IAG merger and the subsequent sale of BA Regional assets .

At its highest Madrid would have several BA ( IB codeshares ) to Madrid per day and IB to Barcelona ( BA codeshare) at Manchester , and something similar at Birmingham.

With the sale to Flybe Manchester (and Birmingham) lost their Madrid connection for a period of time

Then Easyjet and Air Nostrum (IB regional ) took on the challenge and priced the route into the ground

Both left and a vacancy remained

Subsequently Ryanair took on the route and Iberia again would return with a low frequency service using Express and that is where we are today.

Iberia Express you might initially think are feed operation for the parent however their schedules and fare structures suggest otherwise.
In fact the Vueling services provide more connections particularly domestically from Barcelona indeed pricing wise potentially back North East into the rump EU as well.

[FQTLSteve]

easyflyer83 just thought I'd say you may well be right about the BCN/MAD ops at MAN as I remember BHX-BCN/MAD Iberia DC9 operating towards late 80's onwards (not daily but IIRC about 5 weekly) I worked for a big IT company based in Worcestershire and we had a big deal with Telefonica and it was used. frequently with our respective staff. Not MAN info I know but I thought it might help?

[easyflyer83]

Iberia/Aviaco visits long predate to 80s !

Go right back to the late 60s, With props DC7 and Constellations through Caravelle, DC-8, DC-9, DC-8 ( super) for Aviaco on inclusive tour ( charters)

Schedules services started with mid seventies and the initial service was indeed three weekly to Madrid and onwards to Malaga with Iberia DC-9s this was supplemented with a further 3 weekly Barcelona and onwards to Madrid service at some point.

With the arrivals of the MD87 the service dropped the Malaga legs and all flights routed via Barcelona for a very long time
Larger MD80s would sometimes operate even Aviaco ones for Iberia ( a reversal on the previous decades). Subsequently the mad dogs were replaced with Airbus models .

Iberia Boeing 727s were always rare at Manchester (through I remember a series of midnight charters at some point ) probably they were considered to premium heavy

The service remained constant ( through times changed) until the IAG merger and the subsequent sale of BA Regional assets .

At its highest Madrid would have several BA ( IB codeshares ) to Madrid per day and IB to Barcelona ( BA codeshare) at Manchester , and something similar at Birmingham.

With the sale to Flybe Manchester (and Birmingham) lost their Madrid connection for a period of time

Then Easyjet and Air Nostrum (IB regional ) took on the challenge and priced the route into the ground

Both left and a vacancy remained

Subsequently Ryanair took on the route and Iberia again would return with a low frequency service using Express and that is where we are today.

Iberia Express you might initially think are feed operation for the parent however their schedules and fare structures suggest otherwise.
In fact the Vueling services provide more connections particularly domestically from Barcelona indeed pricing wise potentially back North East into the rump EU as well.

Correct, IB Express are not really anything like Iberia Mainline. There seems to be a massive distinction between Express and Mainline even when booking.

MAD was indeed unserved for a number of years (BER was in a similar situation at the time) and then IB and EZY jumped on the route with Ryanair also overlapping. It was a case of poor timing.

[SWBKCB]

Iberia/Aviaco visits long predate to 80s !

Go right back to the late 60s, With props DC7 and Constellations through Caravelle, DC-8, DC-9, DC-8 ( super) for Aviaco on inclusive tour ( charters)

The comment about Aviaco was about Iberia a/c operating for them, not about Aviaco operating (I thought the same - go way back before the 80's)

[Playamar2]

Iberia had a scheduled service to Manchester in 1965/66 from Palma via Barcelona on a Caravelle twice a week with arrival in Manchester about 10pm. I think it was a summer service only.

[Mr Mac]

Last Iberia flight was Man to Barcelona in August 2003, I cannot remember the A/C type though. They are not a carrier I use.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[easyflyer83]

Last Iberia flight was Man to Barcelona in August 2003, I cannot remember the A/C type though. They are not a carrier I use.

Cheers
Mr Mac

It was consistently an A320 from late 90’s IIRC

[Curious Pax]

Definitely DC9s operated in 1986 - I used to turn them round. Also operated charters to Palma on a Saturday night (may have been with Aviaco flight numbers). From what I remember they were mostly A300s, but I think there was the occasional DC10.

[chaps1954]

There were periods over the last couple of years where it was Iberia rather than Iberia Express.

[Mr Mac]

easyflyer83
Thanks for confirming type. I spend a lot of time on A320 in Europe so they do tend to blur a little.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[viscount702]

easyflyer83 just thought I'd say you may well be right about the BCN/MAD ops at MAN as I remember BHX-BCN/MAD Iberia DC9 operating towards late 80's onwards (not daily but IIRC about 5 weekly) I worked for a big IT company based in Worcestershire and we had a big deal with Telefonica and it was used. frequently with our respective staff. Not MAN info I know but I thought it might help?
I remember flying on an Aviaco Caravelle from MAN to BCN in 1966. It was a charter flight rather than scheduled

[AvGeek1]

easyJet are launching a new route to… Istanbul! Staring on 9th June 2023 and at two weekly.

Credits to @SeanM1997 on Twitter for the information.

[laviation]

Read this forum for a while. Wanted to post my thoughts on the future of the US/Canada at MAN. Realistically there may not be much expansion at all for the next 3 seasons, although this is everything that I think is even remotely possible for the next years down the line. Optimistic, I know most of these probably won't happen..

American: Understandably not here. 767, 757, a330 decimated through covid + 787 delays .. PHL i anticipate to return S24 at the absolute earliest if they get more 788s .. Perhaps even with the EIUK codeshare they may opt to get rid of the very strange DFW-DUB route (focus DUB codeshare traffic through ORD?) and reposition that 788 to PHL-MAN? Who knows. Once they start getting some 321XLRs.. CLT would be neat especially with that meeting & partnership with North Carolina signed a few weeks ago.. ORD and JFK would be very nice additions although it may cannibalise with Aer Lingus on these routes.

Delta: Obvious serious lack of ambition from the VS/DL cohort anywhere outside of LHR/EDI from the start of covid up until now. I think ATL will come at some point (maybe even W23??) on A330, taking on the route from VS who have obvious issues, with the route being suspended for months, and with the new entry of Virgin into Skyteam, think BOS coming eventually (S24 to counter the inevitable EI launch?) whether it be Virgin or Delta. JFK could always happen but I feel that is down to what Virgin do. Other delta hubs; SEA a possibility? Was served by TCX for a while.

Aer Lingus: The absolute strongpoint when it comes to expansion @MAN. Once they get some more of those 321s I see the inevitable launch of BOS, ORD, IAD, with their CEO stating Manchester will see 'many folds of growth'. It could be that EI grab some A330neos at some point, which could free up even more A330-300s for MAN, and those 321s could go towards expanding EIUK at other airports, GLA and BHX being the most likely in my opinion. Distant shots at West Coast short term, although that would probably mean JFK reverting to 321 ops for a while. YYZ also possible with 321.

Virgin: As stated in the Delta bit, serious lack of ambition as of recent. Obviously the losses of 340 and 744s were hugely hit, I mean it made them leave LGW entirely, we're lucky that they haven't consolidated to just LHR yet. Also, as previously said, I think the ATL route will swap over to Delta pretty soon, which would free up a based aircraft & could realise the dream of a West Coast route once again, namely one of LAS/LAX/SFO.. More on the West Coast, I think those are more Virgin routes than Delta routes, but who knows?

United: EWR feels a given for S24. Of course we all expected it for this S23 season, obviously it was held back. I believe the conditions will be right for a daily EWR service perhaps with a mix of 757 and 767 throughout the year. ORD and IAD could happen maybe a few seasons down the line as a summer seasonal or something. With this huge order of Dreamliners I feel that routes such as LAX and SFO, while being highly unlikely for a few years at least, aren't totally out of the picture for 4/5 years down the line, especially if Virgin fail to capitalise on these open routes

JetBlue: Very likely addition, probably 2024 too, after AMS i can see Lisbon maybe Dublin then Manchester. Daily BOS and JFK on A321.

Air Canada: Why the hell aren't they back at year-round yet? If it helps, they're going back to daily A330 on YYZ-MAN for this summer. I don't see anything else from AC.

Air Transat: Kudos to them for keeping YYZ year round. Believe they are increasing frequencies this summer to 6 per week, according to ACL. A330 year round would be nice, YUL on A321neo possible? There isn't much in way of demand for Montreal, but then again something like 3x weekly seasonal could be something they'd try.

WestJet: Launching Edinburgh from Calgary this summer. Feel as if that will suck up quite a good bit of the demand for a possible MAN route as well. Time will tell.

Others: Jet2 could be a candidate for EWR once the 321neos start coming online, maybe even with the leased 330s. Norse Atlantic I feel will go bust soon but JFK, FLL would be nice. BA is distinct - I see them basing a few 320s at MAN anyway for Euroflyer operations, perhaps they could send a couple of Gatwick config 777s to test the waters on routes like BGI that could even be taken over from EI. Breeze of the USA for some A220 route into a smaller East Coast US airport, they have stated their ambitions of transatlantic to a 'regional airport in England'.

Overall, 75% of these routes may never happen. But I think the deep sinkhole that has opened for TATL at MAN these past years means that there will be nothing but growth - so it doesn't hurt to be a little optimistic. A realistic view however? United-EWR/Delta-ATL/Aer Lingus-ORD+BOS for S24 would start to fill this hole. Let's hope that there will be a meaningful recovery of this decimated part of the network for the next few years ...

[laviation]

American: Understandably not here. 767, 757, a330 decimated through covid + 787 delays .. PHL i anticipate to return S24 at the absolute earliest if they get more 788s ..

Movement on this subject! PHL CEO is pushing American to relaunch both Manchester and Edinburgh in 2024. Could be that both United and American return next year.

[OzzyOzBorn]

And if Virgin Atlantic can't resolve their ongoing fleet and crewing availability, it would be good to see Delta take back direct control of the MAN-ATL route too. Release the Virgin aircraft to reopen Las Vegas and / or a West Coast route.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

And if Virgin Atlantic can't resolve their ongoing fleet and crewing availability, it would be good to see Delta take back direct control of the MAN-ATL route too. Release the Virgin aircraft to reopen Las Vegas and / or a West Coast route.
G-VEII arrived from Toulouse on delivery into LHR today so that's one more frame. The reason MAN-ATL went to VS was that it lowered the operating costs by using a UK carrier on the joint venture. There's absolutely no guarantee any released airframe would stay at MAN sadly, they go where they can make the most money.

[Blakedean]

laviation what exactly is ‘very strange’ about AAs DFW-DUB route?

[laviation]

laviation what exactly is ‘very strange’ about AAs DFW-DUB route?
It just doesn’t seem like something that fills very often.

[SCFC1EP]

Both had slots Royal Jordanian to start 01/04/23 with A319 think 2 a week and Egyptair 01/06/23 A320

Doubt very much we will wee them this year

Considering LGW/BHX/EDI have had a quite afew new long haul routes and airlines added to there portfolio nothing much happening at MAN except the usual Ryanair/Easyjet/Jet2 additions to bucket and spade destinations and increased frequency on already served routes

[OzzyOzBorn]

G-VEII arrived from Toulouse on delivery into LHR today so that's one more frame. The reason MAN-ATL went to VS was that it lowered the operating costs by using a UK carrier on the joint venture. There's absolutely no guarantee any released airframe would stay at MAN sadly, they go where they can make the most money.

Of course there are no guarantees. We've both been around long enough not to suggest that, haven't we? I'm aware that you understand airline economics, and I think given our long history on here - whatever our differences - you can acknowledge that I do as well.

However, the Virgin operation is not fulfilling its potential at MAN. Basically, they're left operating a skeleton service with just four based aircraft, and that in a market which has seen most of the competition melt away. Not just the US carriers, but also the substantial Thomas Cook A330 operation which competed head-to-head with Virgin pre-covid - and they both prospered on MAN Transatlantic back then. It is in the interests of Delta not to let that advantage slip away, and ATL is the most obvious route which they could 'babysit' until Virgin recovers strength. As you know, Virgin must above all protect its LHR slot horde with the reduced fleet available, but the problem goes deeper than that. Virgin cites crew shortages at MAN and that does make sense. The pre-coronapanic fleet at MAN was dominated by sub-fleets which have since been withdrawn from service. So many of those pilots would need to cross-train for new type ratings before being fully useful to the airline again. Hopefully that process must be well advanced by now, but it would make sense for Delta to help out until Virgin can recover fleet availability and crew strength.

It was a logical decision for Delta to prioritise destinations favoured by US-domiciled travellers when the UK and EU lifted covid restrictions for them whilst Biden failed to reciprocate the favour for those of us on this side of the Atlantic. But that roadblock has been removed now, and whilst you're correct to point out that scarce aircraft resources will be deployed on the most lucrative routes, MAN was certainly a contender on that metric prior to artificial restrictions preventing travel. Delta has the historic data to be confident that MAN will deliver, particularly with so much competition stripped away. They should be encouraged to step up.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Four based long haul units isn't a skeleton operation.
US transatlantic is currently skewed to US POS so Virgin are not the strongest of brands to lead that, although in a JV with Delta that shouldn't be a deal breaker. Thomas Cook's strength was high volume UK based holiday traffic which is still there but price sensitive due to the strength of the dollar.
Am not quite sure what you mean by "until Virgin recover". I don't think they've ever been that much bigger fleetwise, even with the B744s retiring early.
10xA330
4xA339
9xA350
17xB789
Total = 40
MAN is stuck between not being a classically attractive inbound destination for US holidaymakers in the EDI/DUB mould and the traditional UK based POS being hit hard by cost of living and poor exchange rate. Double whammy!

[chaps1954]

Egyptair have only just applied for slots from June which is quite interesting as they waited till after all slots not needed have been released

[laviation]

Think this will be a summer of consolidation. We have some nice capacity increases from EasyJet, Jet2 and Ryanair. I believe we will have Southwind, Egyptair and possibly El Al (rumoured to have gotten slots) as the new names. Winter 23, I can see us getting Air India (BOM and DEL like originally in the S23 report) BA Euroflyer are one possibility too. Even just 3 or 4 320/321 based and routes to more ‘luxury’ Med destinations would work. There is certainly the market for it in the catchment area, as flying the BA brand may be an attractive proposition for some. Aer Lingus could very well launch Chicago and/or Boston depending on A321 deliveries. Delta would be a very welcome surprise however given Virgins obvious issues on MAN-ATL, it may be best to let Delta take on the route, A330neo would be nice. Air China and Juneyao might opt for something too. I can see Hainan going back to daily at some point, Juneyao would be really good to PVG, even if it is via Helsinki as originally planned. Cathay Pacific will inevitably opt for even more capacity with the recent influx of BNO holders from Hong Kong, specifically in the MAN catchment area which is proving popular. 10x weekly flights could be in order for W23, maybe even extending to double daily next year. Others? I’m not sure. Virgin could always surprise us and commit a few of the LHR A330s that have been replaced by 330neo to MAN, maybe even opening up LAS and SFO as well as BOM, but I think any Virgin/Delta expansion is down to Summer 24.Unfortunately, looks as if Royal Jordanians slots have gone. No mention of them on the MAN departures site. Egyptair still there with 5 weekly flights on A320neo

[DUB19]

It just doesn’t seem like something that fills very often.

AA’s DFW-DUB flights are always full! They have extended the season this summer due to demand. :rolleyes:

[Rutan16]

Four based long haul units isn't a skeleton operation.
US transatlantic is currently skewed to US POS so Virgin are not the strongest of brands to lead that, although in a JV with Delta that shouldn't be a deal breaker. Thomas Cook's strength was high volume UK based holiday traffic which is still there but price sensitive due to the strength of the dollar.
Am not quite sure what you mean by "until Virgin recover". I don't think they've ever been that much bigger fleetwise, even with the B744s retiring early.
10xA330
4xA339
9xA350
17xB789
Total = 40
MAN is stuck between not being a classically attractive inbound destination for US holidaymakers in the EDI/DUB mould and the traditional UK based POS being hit hard by cost of living and poor exchange rate. Double whammy!

There is prescience for Delta to resume the Atlanta route on temporary basis . They did it a few years back for several weeks with the 77L.
Of the route packages in my opinion Atlanta should work very more favourably with Delta over Virgin metal.

The current less than daily, indeed about to be suspended for 8 weeks offering is exceptionally sub optimal and rather out the play book of a certain competing Texas based business. It’s very very disappointing and will drive the few frequent flyers away if they continue down this path.

Atlanta is a massive point of entry/exit to the US and can sustain a daily flight irrespective of primary point of sale.

Parallel re Chicago though is the opposite; it’s been dehubbed by that inferred Texas business and Manchester is far from alone in losing that route .
Personally not sure what United are gaining from the limited service to Edinburgh to be honest.

General opinion re US- Manchester current offering are without doubt sub optimal however current UK economic conditions are significant in part.

New York capacity is scheduled to increase with Aer Lingus using the 330 in addition to Virgin
* Alliance will return imho opinion however not before June 2024

Boston is imho the glimmer of hope for Aer Lingus UK and even DL/VS however both require UK point of sale to strengthen

Atlanta see comment above

Orlando (wider area) may see a decline in traffic during 2023 however that will probably ease into 2024

Houston - I am of the opinion Singapore will eventually drop this to be honest . Could United take over? Doubt it as it’s not a primary Trans Atlantic hub for them and they don’t ( can’t ) benefit from a full blown codeshare on the current flights in any case.

Considered prospects
Newark -United in next 18 months
Boston - either of both of Aer Lingus or Delta/Virgin

Chicago and Washington doubtful

Philadelphia - Outside chance of American or partner Aer Lingus 2025

Recovery of a West Coast service is almost certainly in the gift of Virgin at this point, whether SFO LAX or Vegas very much depends on UK economic growth and perhaps stability for a period .So beyond 2025 imho.

Replacing Thomas Cook in the leisure sector is a long way off; with UK outside the European market environment the one carrier that could have delivered “Condor” are scuppered very which way.
They knew the market and had access to the relevant data !

[Rutan16]

A lot of tech and legal beagles flying from or onto Austin , including very wealthy tourists !

Manchester couldn’t hope to generate such traffic ( well no the legal beagles !)

[Seljuk22]

15 years of easyJet at MAN
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/budget-airline-easyjet-marks-15-26601037

[HOVIS]

I wonder where all these 'new' services are going to park? I wonder where all the turnround staff will come from?
Pipe dreams.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Personally not sure what United are gaining from the limited service to Edinburgh to be honest.
The four daily inbound United flights full of American tourists and business travellers? Or the three daily Delta ones?
Nothing wrong with seasonality, ask Jet2. And both Delta and United offer year round service to JFK and EWR.

Interesting point about the ATL frequency though, what's driving the issue? The A330 seems a good sized aircraft and with the DL JV too, so why are VS undermining themselves?

[Rutan16]

The four daily inbound United flights full of American tourists and business travellers? Or the three daily Delta ones?
Nothing wrong with seasonality, ask Jet2. And both Delta and United offer year round service to JFK and EWR.

Interesting point about the ATL frequency though, what's driving the issue? The A330 seems a good sized aircraft and with the DL JV too, so why are VS undermining themselves?

The comments re United were specifically about Chicago rather than Newark or Washington . Again Chicago as Trans Atlantic hub has been massively scaled back indeed its almost extinct for American in particular .

No disrespect to Edinburgh from a US point of sale and leisure market view point.

VisitScotland are doing a fabulous job on selling the Castle, shortbread, whisky (nowhere near Edinburgh in reality) and tartan on global scale!

Only wish the wish the English tourist authorities could lift their head up internationally above the delights of London, Windsor and Stratford ( oh and a little shopping stop at Bicester ) !

As to the undermining it’s a very good question isn’t it ?

Delta 764 frames seem more appropriate imho.
Little difference in business and in the back of economy ( those going down to Florida and such) but 28 fewer of that odd premium economy range is ideal for the Manchester market imho.

Further the brand; joint venture or not will retail far better in the US.

I am under no illusions that Manchester as an Atlantic hub ( small case) has a longer uphill struggle to regain its prior glory of a few years back .

I am also under no illusions that Virgin seem to be underselling Manchester for well “reasons”

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1584x612/capture_e2bc75eddd0dd267b4742259972b277302dd186f.png
Y'all might be right about Virgin !!
Some good points @Rutan16, I see what you mean.

[OzzyOzBorn]

MAN is stuck between not being a classically attractive inbound destination for US holidaymakers in the EDI/DUB mould and the traditional UK based POS being hit hard by cost of living and poor exchange rate. Double whammy!

The issue of MAN being an outbound-heavy market to the US was an overwhelming influence on capacity decisions taken whilst Biden retained coronapanic bans on UK/EU travellers but not those from his own country. That situation is now (thankfully) resolved and UK-domiciled customers are back in the game. We know from many years of experience that customers resident in the MAN catchment are more than capable of filling US-bound flights at healthy yields, despite reduced support from US-originating customers.

You are correct in arguing that economic headwinds justify a cut in available capacity as we move from boom times to recession. But the present scenario calls for prudent reductions from S2019 capacity, not a wholesale collapse. A typical week in Summer 2019 shows 88 MAN-USA departures, many of these on the high-density B747-400. My projections for a similar week in Summer 2023 shows 47 MAN-USA departures. My numbers there may be slightly adrift, but they're a fair reflection of the true picture. Available capacity on MAN-USA routes has near enough halved for S23 v S19. That is way overdone. Back in 2009, we saw similar economic conditions following the credit crisis ... a 50% capacity reduction on MAN-USA routes wasn't required then, and it isn't now.

As I said previously, the opportunity is there for Virgin / Delta to seize this opportunity and make MAN a genuine stronghold for the group. They aren't doing that, possibly because of the need to safeguard LHR slots and re-train flight crews to new type ratings. And that makes this an obvious situation for Delta to help out by babysitting MAN-ATL until Virgin can get their act together again. It serves the long-term interests of the group. Back in S19, MAN was supporting NINE A332's per week to Las Vegas alone. There were a further 11 weekly departures to West Coast USA. Exchange rates and cost of living issues have not reduced that demand to zero. A Virgin aircraft released from the ATL route could surely be filled at good yield on a roster of Vegas and either LAX or SFO; filling 4 or 5 flights per week to this market isn't a big ask versus 20 flights per week back in S19. Economic headwinds don't justify dropping from 20 flights per week to none. Australia is an expensive country for UK-domiciled customers to visit too ... but look how bookings have roared back in that market.

Yes, economic headwinds DO justify MAN-USA seat capacity being reduced from the S19 offering. But NOT by 50%. And NOT by 100% to the Western States. I stand by my assertion that Delta would be well-advised to help out Virgin on this one. It would be a win-win for group interests.

[OzzyOzBorn]

I wonder where all these 'new' services are going to park? I wonder where all the turnround staff will come from?
Pipe dreams.

With full acknowledgment to archived information provided by 'Mikey Humphries', a typical night in Summer 2018 saw MAN based fleet strength as follows:

EXS 18; TCX 17; TOM 15; EZY 13; RYR 10; BEE 8; VIR 6; FPO 1; CFE 1 (weekend only); FDX/ASL 2 = 91.

Projections for MAN based fleet strength in S23 is as follows:

EXS 24; EZY 21; TOM 17; RYR/RUK 16; VIR 4; EUK 2 = 84.

Of course, some of the long-haul aircraft are flying overnight - but conversely, additional aircraft from none-based carriers do night-stop as well.

So ... your question is asking where any additional services in S23 would park. We know that TP construction work and dualing of taxiways has impacted availability of stands. But set against this, additional stands have been constructed as well - and these are available for use. So essentially, you appear to be arguing that MAN cannot physically accommodate additional aircraft parking at a time when based fleet strength is 7 fewer than in S18, and in a calendar year where passenger numbers are likely to end up around 3,000,000 short of the record MAT throughput reported in September 2019. All whilst MAG claims capability of handling upto 45M passengers per year across its three terminals.

I would respectfully suggest that MAN can accommodate a few more flights yet.

As an aside, I would also point out that consolidation in the industry which has seen the number of based carriers reduced to just SIX names in 2023 does re-emphasise the need for MAG to accommodate whatever additional capacity those six carriers are prepared to commit to MAN. It is increasingly essential to do whatever it takes. No place for telling carriers that Terminal [N] is full so you can't base any more here! Especially since two of those six carriers (VIR and TOM) have filed for smaller programmes than the equivalent requested last year. The heavy-lifting for further based growth falls to fewer names than we have seen in decades.

[SWBKCB]

Any views on the second quoted question?

[laviation]

If we're talking a reasonable plan for VS at MAN:

Currently - 3x A333 and 1x A350 based. Current destinations include BGI, MCO, JFK and ATL. ISB terminated after S23.
Atlanta is a complete mess. 7x weekly was planned in the ACL S23 report, however this route is ditched for 8 weeks starting soon, because of 'piloting issues'. Delta need to take this route and fast, before VS ditch it completely. In a dream world Delta would take on the route beginning in June, give or take a few weeks, with a 767 or A330, although I think W23/S24 is more likely for this. Immediately this frees up an aircraft.

Virgin are taking on 17 A330neos. They have just received their 4th, VEII, a couple of days ago. VS have 10 A330-300s as of now. 3 are based at MAN. Once they get enough A330neos, it makes good sense to send 3 or 4 of these older 330s to Manchester, instead of scrapping them off. These aircraft are only around 10-12 years old.

So, what could be done with a 7 or 8 strong hub of A330 at MAN?
Virgin had 6 aircraft at Manchester pre-covid. Routes missing from that time are seasonal LAS and LAX. They would be reinstated immediately. 5x weekly each for the summer and 3-4 weekly in the winter seems right, which takes up roughly 1 and a half units.
Delhi and Mumbai were planned for 2020. These are very logical additions from a Skyteam point of view. Star Alliance Air India will start this route very soon. 5 a week to both destinations, year round, will fill every time. A mix of VFR customers from the catchment area, and even some VFR from the US could connect JFK-MAN-DEL.. This once again takes up roughly an aircraft and a half, so this leaves one more.

That is all pre-covid operated & planned routes covered. We still have an unfilled aircraft, so where could it fly?
Islamabad: Meh. Virgin will not operate to Pakistan even from LHR after this summer.
Austin, Texas: Really out there, but would actually do really well in my opinion. In recent years I have noticed quite a lot of Brits moving to Texas. Furthermore, Singapore's IAH route does quite well being a large A350 from a regional UK city to Texas. Austin is a very nice upcoming city, specifically in the tech sector. 2-4 per week and could pair up with another route.
San Francisco: A TCX route left unserved. It did well for them, why wouldn't it now?
Boston: Most likely out of any listed here, however it won't be on Virgin imho. A daily Delta 757 (as planned for Summer 2020) think will come 2024 to combat EIUK.
Montego Bay / Punta Cana: I feel as if one of these would be nice to pair SFO/AUS on this final aircraft. I flew with TCX to PUJ a few years before their demise and it was rammed full.

Overall, a dream scenario for VS at Manchester would be to see one of the T2 piers chock a block with their A330s, almost as if you couldn't tell the difference to being at LHR T3 lol.

[Stockportcounty]

I wonder where all these 'new' services are going to park? I wonder where all the turnround staff will come from?
Pipe dreams.



Nailed it, simples.

[azz767]

With full acknowledgment to archived information provided by 'Mikey Humphries', a typical night in Summer 2018 saw MAN based fleet strength as follows:

EXS 18; TCX 17; TOM 15; EZY 13; RYR 10; BEE 8; VIR 6; FPO 1; CFE 1 (weekend only); FDX/ASL 2 = 91.

Projections for MAN based fleet strength in S23 is as follows:

EXS 24; EZY 21; TOM 17; RYR/RUK 16; VIR 4; EUK 2 = 84.

Of course, some of the long-haul aircraft are flying overnight - but conversely, additional aircraft from none-based carriers do night-stop as well.

So ... your question is asking where any additional services in S23 would park. We know that TP construction work and dualing of taxiways has impacted availability of stands. But set against this, additional stands have been constructed as well - and these are available for use. So essentially, you appear to be arguing that MAN cannot physically accommodate additional aircraft parking at a time when based fleet strength is 7 fewer than in S18, and in a calendar year where passenger numbers are likely to end up around 3,000,000 short of the record MAT throughput reported in September 2019. All whilst MAG claims capability of handling upto 45M passengers per year across its three terminals.

I would respectfully suggest that MAN can accommodate a few more flights yet.

As an aside, I would also point out that consolidation in the industry which has seen the number of based carriers reduced to just SIX names in 2023 does re-emphasise the need for MAG to accommodate whatever additional capacity those six carriers are prepared to commit to MAN. It is increasingly essential to do whatever it takes. No place for telling carriers that Terminal [N] is full so you can't base any more here! Especially since two of those six carriers (VIR and TOM) have filed for smaller programmes than the equivalent requested last year. The heavy-lifting for further based growth falls to fewer names than we have seen in decades.


Although there are new stands I believe there has been a loss of wide body capable contact stands at T2 with only 8 now, remembering that the LS 757’s can’t use the far side of the new A pier.

Also the terminal split, is different. In 2019 LS and TCX were in T1. EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS. That means any new entrant, particularly to the US may have to park remote, which the likes of US, DL probably wouldn’t want to do. I also believe they both used T2 in the past so wouldn’t want to use T1 or Ryanair HQ (T3) if they returned. There is already a massive amount of towing too/from remote stands early morning.

At T2 this summer you could have up to 4 TUI 787’s and 2 767’s, 4 VS, QR, EY, CX, 2 SQ, 2 EUK, 3 EXS A330’s plus EXS 757’s all who can only use 8 contact stands in T2. Surely that 2nd pier needs to be built before much more morning heavies come in?

[laviation]

Although there are new stands I believe there has been a loss of wide body capable contact stands at T2 with only 8 now, remembering that the LS 757’s can’t use the far side of the new A pier.

Also the terminal split, is different. In 2019 LS and TCX were in T1. EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS. That means any new entrant, particularly to the US may have to park remote, which the likes of US, DL probably wouldn’t want to do. I also believe they both used T2 in the past so wouldn’t want to use T1 or Ryanair HQ (T3) if they returned. There is already a massive amount of towing too/from remote stands early morning.

At T2 this summer you could have up to 4 TUI 787’s and 2 767’s, 4 VS, QR, EY, CX, 2 SQ, 2 EUK, 3 EXS A330’s plus EXS 757’s all who can only use 8 contact stands in T2. Surely that 2nd pier needs to be built before much more morning heavies come in? I mean .. perhaps a deal with EXS could be reached for 24/25 to move their widebodies back to T1?
As for US carriers, AA were T3, DL were T1 & only UA were T2. I think United will initially use the 757 on EWR-MAN, so it doesn't matter for them I think.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.

EUK has replaced the loss of the two VS.

Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.

Nailed it, simples.

​​​​​​​May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?

[SWBKCB]

Is Manchester properly staffed for the summer?

[azz767]

Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.



Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.



May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?

I was referring to EUK in terms of T2 gate space, but yes agreed, capacity wise I get that TCX haven’t been replaced.
​​​​​​​

[Una Due Tfc]

Last I heard delivery of EI’s first XLRs has been delayed until late next year, so if true they won’t be a factor in MAN expansion until S25.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.
They went bust so it's fair to ask if this high volume / low cost traffic would be picked up by anyone else currently in market. This may remain the case until Norse Atlantic have a go.

btw I make the high point of Virgin Atlantic as Summer 2019 with 35 flights per week with up to 6 aircraft rotations :
VS074 MCO x 2
VS076 MCO x 7
VS078 BGI x 2
VS086 LAS x 4
VS110 ATL x 7
VS122 BOS x 3
VS128 JFK x 7
VS182 LAX x 3 (replaced SFO)

With ISB and UVF both having been tried and dropped historically.
This winter only saw 3 based frames with 21 flights to ATL/JFK/MCO and BGI.
There are 5 more A350s and 11 more A339s to come but I am not 100% sure how many of the A333s are going back at end of lease so not all net growth.

[HOVIS]

Is Manchester properly staffed for the summer?
It's not properly staffed. Full stop. 😁

[OzzyOzBorn]

What percentage of the staff compliment required do you believe to be in place? Is the shortfall you reference in handling agency roles specifically, or across airport departments generally? What initiatives are underway to make up the deficit?

[OzzyOzBorn]

They went bust so it's fair to ask if this high volume / low cost traffic would be picked up by anyone else currently in market.

Not in the near term. We'll likely have to be patient on that. Though just to be clear, Thomas Cook was taken down by the insurmountable historic debt obligations of the wider group. The MAN Transatlantic operation was successful and in profit. In the pre-covid era, both Virgin Atlantic and FOSUN expressed interest in stepping in. Those doors have closed now.

[SWBKCB]

What percentage of the staff compliment required do you believe to be in place? Is the shortfall you reference in handling agency roles specifically, or across airport departments generally? What initiatives are underway to make up the deficit?

I think I'd want to know the answer to these questions before deciding where to place my expensive assett.

[Rutan16]

If we're talking a reasonable plan for VS at MAN:

Currently - 3x A333 and 1x A350 based. Current destinations include BGI, MCO, JFK and ATL. ISB terminated after S23.
Atlanta is a complete mess. 7x weekly was planned in the ACL S23 report, however this route is ditched for 8 weeks starting soon, because of 'piloting issues'. Delta need to take this route and fast, before VS ditch it completely. In a dream world Delta would take on the route beginning in June, give or take a few weeks, with a 767 or A330, although I think W23/S24 is more likely for this. Immediately this frees up an aircraft.

Virgin are taking on 17 A330neos. They have just received their 4th, VEII, a couple of days ago. VS have 10 A330-300s as of now. 3 are based at MAN. Once they get enough A330neos, it makes good sense to send 3 or 4 of these older 330s to Manchester, instead of scrapping them off. These aircraft are only around 10-12 years old.

So, what could be done with a 7 or 8 strong hub of A330 at MAN?
Virgin had 6 aircraft at Manchester pre-covid. Routes missing from that time are seasonal LAS and LAX. They would be reinstated immediately. 5x weekly each for the summer and 3-4 weekly in the winter seems right, which takes up roughly 1 and a half units.
Delhi and Mumbai were planned for 2020. These are very logical additions from a Skyteam point of view. Star Alliance Air India will start this route very soon. 5 a week to both destinations, year round, will fill every time. A mix of VFR customers from the catchment area, and even some VFR from the US could connect JFK-MAN-DEL.. This once again takes up roughly an aircraft and a half, so this leaves one more.

That is all pre-covid operated & planned routes covered. We still have an unfilled aircraft, so where could it fly?
Islamabad: Meh. Virgin will not operate to Pakistan even from LHR after this summer.
Austin, Texas: Really out there, but would actually do really well in my opinion. In recent years I have noticed quite a lot of Brits moving to Texas. Furthermore, Singapore's IAH route does quite well being a large A350 from a regional UK city to Texas. Austin is a very nice upcoming city, specifically in the tech sector. 2-4 per week and could pair up with another route.
San Francisco: A TCX route left unserved. It did well for them, why wouldn't it now?
Boston: Most likely out of any listed here, however it won't be on Virgin imho. A daily Delta 757 (as planned for Summer 2020) think will come 2024 to combat EIUK.
Montego Bay / Punta Cana: I feel as if one of these would be nice to pair SFO/AUS on this final aircraft. I flew with TCX to PUJ a few years before their demise and it was rammed full.

Overall, a dream scenario for VS at Manchester would be to see one of the T2 piers chock a block with their A330s, almost as if you couldn't tell the difference to being at LHR T3 lol.

The A333 leases were largely taken on because of 787 delays and compensation. The bonds sureties and contracts may well only allow single short extension of months with a mass of caveats and balloon fees.

Extension and or outright purchase will be completely and financially reckless to the bottom line. As leases expire and the 339 fleet gradually come online they will begin to leave the fleet for new lives or a period of retirement.

A ten year plus 2 extension places the time frame for withdrawals to start this coming winter and through to spring 2025 and in no coincidence with the 338 deliveries.

Caveat two are technically operated by Virgin International on Caribbean routes from Heathrow .

As said earlier I am currently very disappointed with Virgin Atlantic ( we know they survived financial melt down by a skin of their teeth and a bucket load of money from Atlanta) they remain unsure about their future direction of travel.

They lost the boutique selling points some years back, they backfill for Delta ( poorly imho) , whilst the Mouseland ops generate the daily revenues for the group .
Without valuable cruise traffic most of the Islands wouldn’t be viable either

Beyond that they are pretty small fry in the global market.

I think I have stated my opinion above ; opportunities from Manchester are now limited and the “temporary” suspension of Atlanta just further highlights my concern.

Ultimately I agree that Delta would be far better recovering Atlanta on own metals; the 764 is perfectly suited as well as for any potential Boston service in the mid term.

All that said Edinburgh and VisitScotland have taken the baton firmly away from MAG for the foreseeable.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I mean .. perhaps a deal with EXS could be reached for 24/25 to move their widebodies back to T1?
As for US carriers, AA were T3, DL were T1 & only UA were T2. I think United will initially use the 757 on EWR-MAN, so it doesn't matter for them I think.
Weren't Delta in T2?

The A333 leases were largely taken on because of 787 delays and compensation
Caveat two are technically operated by Virgin International on Caribbean routes from Heathrow .
Ultimately I agree that Delta would be far better recovering Atlanta on own metals; the 764 is perfectly suited as well as for any potential Boston service in the mid term.
The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!

[HOVIS]

What percentage of the staff compliment required do you believe to be in place? Is the shortfall you reference in handling agency roles specifically, or across airport departments generally? What initiatives are underway to make up the deficit?
All I know is that on a day to day basis there are delays specifically because there simply aren't enough staff. Baggage handlers, Qualified tug drivers, Dispatchers, Licenced Engineers the lot.
Some of these skills can be trained quickly, some take years. From my own point of view the demographic of Licenced Engineers has reached critical mass. Most seem to be well into their 50s and 60s. This has been building for decades, industry is at fault for not training enough, the salary of these guys is now approaching 6 figures. The armed services, a pot that supplied the civilian industry with experienced people, has reduced dramatically. The cupboard is bare.

[OzzyOzBorn]

I presume then that this is a UK industry-wide issue and not specific to MAN in isolation?

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Some excellent pos5s and points of view on here.

Can I suggest that someone applies for a post with the MAG marketing team?

[Rutan16]

Weren't Delta in T2?


The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!

Sort of still does in that is the ticket broker on those Caribbean flights ( charges VS parents a commission) a money laundering scheme by any other name . Pays the diesel for Branson yacht as well :)

Classic tax dodge scam really.

[Rutan16]

Weren't Delta in T2?


The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!

When T2 originally opened ALL foreign long haul services were resident with Air Malta , and Britannia filling the gaps during the afternoon.

American later moved over to T3 east stands to be with BA.

.

[chaps1954]

Certainly would not have called American reliable infact they were pretty useless what ever aircraft was used and got worse as the years progressed

[laviation]

Weren't Delta in T2?


The Virgin International thing isn't a thing anymore I believe, if it ever even really was. I agree on the Delta piece though, DL64/65 was clockwork reliable for years, mind you, so was AA54/55!

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I *believe* Delta were assigned T1 for their 2020 MAN-BOS restart

[Mr Mac]

Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.



Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.



May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?
Ozzy
You make the point about Bus use and Middle East carriers, and indeed never mind aspirational ones, EK still has many remote stands for 777 operations.

However it is the Middle East and it is some what dryer than Manchester, though when it does rain in DXB it does throw it down. However this a little rarer than in Manchester, so they can get away with it, and premium passengers and the carriers would get mighty annoyed if you tried it in Manchester.

Cheers
​​​​​​​Mr Mac

[MANFAN]

It is inevitable that as we get more widebody services between now and the summer of 2025, more remote stands will be used for these services.
We have 8 widebody contact stands now at T2 (4 on the new Pier and 4 at legacy T2). This will of course improve once the next Pier is opened (expected during summer 2025). However, from many previous experiences flying with both Jet2 and Easyjet, remote stands are sometimes better, as you can board from both doors which makes the overall process much quicker. Once Easyjet transfer to T2 there will be plenty of remote stands for them.

I did notice recently on the new Pier of T2, de-boarding was being done via the airbridge and steps at the back of the aircraft, whilst boarding was only taking place via the airbridge on a KLM 737-800, this was on the narrowbody side of the Pier (Gate A3 I think, so stand 103).

[OzzyOzBorn]

Mr Mac - I agree with your take on bussing stands and wouldn't propose them as a long-term solution for long-haul flights. However, during major terminal reconstruction and essential taxiway work-in-progress, I contend that it is preferable to tolerate the inconvenience of bussing temporarily rather than to suspend air services. As long as work is visibly underway to provide contact stands once construction is complete. It can't be done on a "jam tomorrow" basis where tomorrow never comes [Piccadilly Platforms 15 & 16 versus Dinosaur Grayling and HM Treasury springs to mind!]. But we do know that construction of a new pier is the issue at MAN - and that is a very positive development from a long-term perspective. Short term pain for long term gain, worth it in the end. A familiar issue at all major airports, not just MAN.

IIRC, similar issues prevailed in Summer 2019. Back then, I believe that the major carriers took turns to use bussing stands (pre-Pier 1) on an agreed rota basis. Maybe another poster can clarify?

[Mr A Tis]

Trouble with Manchester, it is always jam tomorrow. They were bussing long haul in T2 back in 2002. We were bussed to our remote BWIA L1011-except we were taken by mistake to a Virgin 747 that was also remote boarding at the same time. The pax had to convince the driver we were at the wrong aircraft. So in 20+ years it's not rocket progress.

There has been a lot of chat of US services, but no mention of the dire offerings to Canada. I have used Air Canada & the previous Rouge many times and always surprised how full they are on such a pathetic short season of just a few weeks. I used the AC A330 last year & all three cabins were full both ways. At least Transat keep some kind of service going year round. However, when you see Gatwick with Multiple Toronto's, Ottawa, Montreal & Vancouver the lack lustre MAN-Canada is hugely disappointing.

[Stockportcounty]

[QUOTE=OzzyOzBorn;11413094]Contact stands for widebody aircraft are the ideal solution. However, bussing in the short to medium term shouldn't be a dealbreaker if there is money to be made. This is common at many other airports, including at least one aspirational name in the Gulf. Passengers will cope until terminal construction catches up. We must remember too that these widebody aircraft visiting MAN do not all overlap with their timings.



Agreed. But the seven TCX A330's have not been backfilled by other carriers.



May I invite you to elaborate with some data-led observations?[/QUOTE

You may,

however data-led observations mean Jack to me.
Being out there and a part of it does. I need not elaborate.

[laviation]

Weren’t there plans at some point for a Terminal 4 on the other side of the runways?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Certainly would not have called American reliable infact they were pretty useless what ever aircraft was used and got worse as the years progressed
I am feeling quite old as I was referring to the original B767-200/300 (MD11 in 1992!) days before the rebrand and the US Airways merger. I recall a certain poster being adamant that AA would operate ORD/JFK/PHL and CLT post merger, they threw it all away IMHO.

[OzzyOzBorn]

however data-led observations mean Jack to me.
Being out there and a part of it does. I need not elaborate.

​​​​​​​You do need to elaborate if you want your comments to make any sense.

[chaps1954]

In the last few years as the 767/757 got older they got more and more unreliable and there wer numerous cancellations due to one or the other breaking down

[SWBKCB]

You do need to elaborate if you want your comments to make any sense.

Without knowing the individuals (HOVIS and STOCKPORTCOUNTY), the view from the inside seems to be that the staffing issues from last year haven't gone away and need to be sorted out before there can be realistic talk about further expansion. Again, it might just be a perception based on the press coverage, but it appeared that MAN was impacted worse (or as badly) as others.

​​​​​​​Planning departments with a range of possible destinations to chose from might be taking that into account, or at least are asking the questions and are not being re-assured by the replies they are getting.

[chaps1954]

I think the problem is the handling agents as they have in recent years run on a minimum staffing and on minimum wages.I went to a job fair once and the offer was terrible and I think it is worse now than then but the airlines themselves are much to blame by driving costs down, its no suprise that people don`t want to work for them

[Alteagod]

Agree GHA wages are linked to turn rates airlines pay not to mention the penalty performance clauses in the SGHA. The carriers get exactly what they pay for. Self handling has in some cases helped but is not the answer for all.

[Suzeman]

Weren’t there plans at some point for a Terminal 4 on the other side of the runways?

Decades ago, it was briefly looked at in the Moss Lane area. It was in Cheshire so the planning environment was difficult to say the least and there were numerous issues over aircraft ground movements.

Site is now in the safety area for 23L/05R. Anywhere else, the site is too narrow due to the Bollin Valley.

.

[DP.]

Certainly would not have called American reliable infact they were pretty useless what ever aircraft was used and got worse as the years progressed

Yes, absolutely dire towards the end. I recall they tried to salvage things by putting a 787 on the ORD route, but they'd burned through far too much goodwill by then.

[Rutan16]

Yes, absolutely dire towards the end. I recall they tried to salvage things by putting a 787 on the ORD route, but they'd burned through far too much goodwill by then.

The 787 reliability was worse of all .American based just three at Chicago at the time rotating mainly to Asia Early mx issues experienced by these frames meant that late inbound from Asia directly resulted in delay and more likely cancellations of Manchester service .After a hanger stay the aircraft flew west again and those for Manchester found themselves of a BA or AA flight to LHR

[Flightrider]

Sort of still does in that is the ticket broker on those Caribbean flights ( charges VS parents a commission) a money laundering scheme by any other name . Pays the diesel for Branson yacht as well :)

Classic tax dodge scam really.

That's not correct. VAIL is still there - look at the AOC holder to whom A330 G-VRAY is registered. It was put in place for a very specific reason and it wasn't money laundering or tax dodging or anything else of that nature.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

That's not correct. VAIL is still there - look at the AOC holder to whom A330 G-VRAY is registered. It was put in place for a very specific reason and it wasn't money laundering or tax dodging or anything else of that nature.
I was wrong (again!) G-VRAY only seems to do Caribbean and TLV, it hasn't been to the US for ages. Yet the routes it flies are often flown by the rest of the fleet. What is the very specific reason they need one (more) aircraft on a different AOC that does this? It's still filed as VS/VIR "Virgin" so they have a 2nd AOC which uses the parents ticketing and flight planning, unlike say BA EuroFlyer. I'm intrigued as to why? Has it even been to MAN since?
G-INFO : https://www.caa.co.uk/aircraft-register/g-info/search-g-info/#
G-VRAY Aircraft operated by AOC holder : VIRGIN ATLANTIC INTERNATIONAL LTD whereas the rest are VIRGIN ATLANTIC AIRWAYS LTD

[Flightrider]

The second AOC was established in 2015 as part of an arrangement to securitise Virgin Atlantic's Heathrow slots.

Sky News story at the time here explains all. (https://news.sky.com/story/virgin-mortgages-heathrow-slots-in-250m-deal-10337873)

[Rutan16]

The second AOC was established in 2015 as part of an arrangement to securitise Virgin Atlantic's Heathrow slots.

Sky News story at the time here explains all. (https://news.sky.com/story/virgin-mortgages-heathrow-slots-in-250m-deal-10337873)

Confirmed tax and liability exercise :)

Didn’t BA do something similar with British Airways Limited owning some of their slots ?

[Mr Mac]

Mr Mac - I agree with your take on bussing stands and wouldn't propose them as a long-term solution for long-haul flights. However, during major terminal reconstruction and essential taxiway work-in-progress, I contend that it is preferable to tolerate the inconvenience of bussing temporarily rather than to suspend air services. As long as work is visibly underway to provide contact stands once construction is complete. It can't be done on a "jam tomorrow" basis where tomorrow never comes [Piccadilly Platforms 15 & 16 versus Dinosaur Grayling and HM Treasury springs to mind!]. But we do know that construction of a new pier is the issue at MAN - and that is a very positive development from a long-term perspective. Short term pain for long term gain, worth it in the end. A familiar issue at all major airports, not just MAN.

IIRC, similar issues prevailed in Summer 2019. Back then, I believe that the major carriers took turns to use bussing stands (pre-Pier 1) on an agreed rota
basis. Maybe another poster can clarify?

Ozzy
There are large airports in Europe that do busing , Frankfurt being a prime example. However if you notice all of these steps are covered and buses pull up close in bad weather. I don’t think I have seen covered steps in Manchester.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[SWBKCB]

Does using more bussing stands need more staff?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Confirmed tax and liability exercise :)

Didn’t BA do something similar with British Airways Limited owning some of their slots ?
The LCY-JFK A318 operation was operated by British Airways Limited for a time, had small titles on the nose. Sorry, for the thread drift, thanks for the info.

[Flightrider]

Confirmed tax and liability exercise https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

If you can't be bothered to understand it and keep posting rubbish, then there's truly no point in trying to explain. It's nothing to do with tax or liability.

And Skip - BA did work on something similar - which is why the A318 was on the British Airways (BA) - also known as "BABA" - AOC for a while. For whatever reason, the BA bond issue did not work out and the structure was folded back into BA, whereas the bond issue did work out for Virgin with VAIL.

[Rutan16]

If you can't be bothered to understand it and keep posting rubbish, then there's truly no point in trying to explain. It's nothing to do with tax or liability.

And Skip - BA did work on something similar - which is why the A318 was on the British Airways (BA) - also known as "BABA" - AOC for a while. For whatever reason, the BA bond issue did not work out and the structure was folded back into BA, whereas the bond issue did work out for Virgin with VAIL.

Btw I was me that pointed out the Virgin International operation upstream!

And you have only posted a link to a news item and a string of uninformative no it isn’t comments, literally no explanations given by you so far !

You could explain for the benefit of others mate; however personally couldn’t give a crap about the minutiae of these financial vehicles to be honest .

Mortgaging slots for finance as the carrier was strapped for cash (also noted in my previous post!)

For Joe Public they have little to no visibility !

They are exoteric methods of moving money and hiding ownership

Virgin International ( UK) posted a pathetic £55k ( I presume fees!) for 2021 on turnover of just over £100k

As the slots are mortgaged one also presumes Virgin Group has a massive internal invoicing system moving funds across differing businesses ( of couse it does !)

So you can’t tell me there isn’t tax and liability avoidance going on !

Yes bond holders are milking the carrier in dividends’ a carrier that rarely records a profit in its own reports .

However I’ll leave it there as the prime reason for the thread was generally in relation to the ten 333s and a rather general spotter/enthusiast generated post

[Asturias56]

Ahh - Virgin accounting - many years ago the Economist published an investigation into that subject.

Sir Richard's Empire has a multitude of brands across a vast number of industries and even more companies and countries. They all do a great deal of inter-company business. At the time it was remarked that many of them have different financial year ends.

It seemed to be considered rather opaque and impossible to get a full view of what the situation really was.

A masterpiece of financial engineering.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The based Aer Lingus UK A321 has gone back to Dublin fleet?

[azz767]

I see jet2 went back to split terminal ops again last week for the summer. I still think it will be interesting to see how MAN copes with just the new 2nd T2 pier added when T1 closes.

[spacedog]

Looks like Gulf Air increasing from 2 x weekly to 4 x weekly from May

[The96er]

The based Aer Lingus UK A321 has gone back to Dublin fleet?

Due back in DUB on the 21st on the Irish registry after a 'C' check by STS at MAN.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Due back in DUB on the 21st on the Irish registry after a 'C' check by STS at MAN.
Many thanks!

[Una Due Tfc]

Aer Lingus A333 G-EIDY has been tech the last few days. Apparently it is awaiting a component for a FADEC. A Wamos A330 was leased in to operate the Bridgetown flight yesterday. EI A333 EI-DUZ positioned over this evening to fill in until the part arrives. All very unfortunate timing. At one point EI had 3 x A333s & 1 x A332 out of action last week; EI-EIK ingested a flock of pigeons on climb out from DUB, EI-FNH had an engine oil leak and diverted into KEF and EI-DAA got clobbered by some ground equipment in YYZ. EIDY and DAA are both still out of service.

[HOVIS]

Blimey, the overtime bill for Aer Lingus engineers must be huge. Kerching!

[lexoncd]

I once heard a senior person say Branson would end up looking like a certain newspaper proprietor

Ahh - Virgin accounting - many years ago the Economist published an investigation into that subject.

Sir Richard's Empire has a multitude of brands across a vast number of industries and even more companies and countries. They all do a great deal of inter-company business. At the time it was remarked that many of them have different financial year ends.

It seemed to be considered rather opaque and impossible to get a full view of what the situation really was.

A masterpiece of financial engineering.

[Asturias56]

Too clever I think............ he certainly seems to be able to run rings round other businessmen in many of the industries he's dabbled in over the years.

[mrguy]

Have Eastern canned the Southampton route? Nothing seems to be bookable on their website.

[chaps1954]

Might as well they are useless but they plan to re start after summer

[OzzyOzBorn]

Four month suspension on MAN-SOU, I believe. Absolutely useless. We have nothing to EXT either. Come on Loganair ... take a look!!!

[MANFOD]

Four month suspension on MAN-SOU, I believe. Absolutely useless. We have nothing to EXT either. Come on Loganair ... take a look!!!

I think Loganair is too busy expanding operations out of LHR. That has a familiar ring about it for another airline we need to do more at MAN, as it used to.

[Mr A Tis]

The promised return of twice daily Eastern MAN-SOU lasted about a week before the early rotation was canned, now the complete suspension again. Wish someone reliable came back here. Trains are useless, unreliable & expensive. From a one time 6 daily (BE) route to zero is prettty poor show. Logan or Blue Island need to get on here.

[CabinCrewe]

Can’t honestly see either operators on that route. Loganair in particular I doubt would have the frames for a high frequency prime time service, unless something else was canned.
What is the target market and fare premium?

[OzzyOzBorn]

Agreed, Loganair haven't currently got spare fleet capacity, though those LHR services are largely switched from other London-area airports rather than representing new seats. But most healthy companies have a strategy for growth, and certain routes represent low-hanging fruit on that count. As Mr A Tis pointed out, MAN-SOU supported upto six Q400's daily pre-covid. Nobody is suggesting that this level of capacity would be appropriate now, but neither is zero. The journey between Manchester and Southampton is an expensive and challenging one. Plenty of travellers need to make that journey and, aside from self-drive, the options aren't great. There is money to be made by the right operator, offering reliability and a fair but profitable tariff. That doesn't mean the sort of fare one could fly Manchester to New York for!

[Sotonsean]

MAN-SOU was always popular with passengers joining their cruise in Southampton as are all the domestic flights from the regions.

This year just like last year we have had to increase the amount of coaching opportunities from the northwest for cruise passengers due to the lack of direct flights to Southampton.

[Accura]

I live in Manchester but work for a firm based on the south coast, so I use the Eastern service usually around 2 or 3 times a month to get there and back for office visits. Despite the very limited timetable and the quite frequent hefty delays, it is still the best way to get from North West England to the south coast. I actually really enjoy flying with Eastern Airways as well, so I was really looking forward to the flights being increased to twice daily from next month. I'd made a number of bookings throughout the summer, and would likely have made a bunch more, so I was pretty gutted when I got the email saying my flights had been cancelled following them suspending the route. The idea of having to go back to the train again is painful.

The timing of this is quite interesting. Although the flights were never full, they did seem to be getting a lot busier. When I first started using the route regularly about 7 or 8 months ago you'd be lucky to get 20 people on board. There must have been around 50 on a return flight 3 weeks ago, and then I took what will probably be my last flight on this route until September this evening, with at least 40 people on board. As has already been mentioned this has always been a popular route for people connecting with cruises, for which we are entering the busiest part of the year. I know Eastern are currently in the process of kicking off new routes to Paris Orly from a handful of UK regional airports... the cynic in me suspected that it may be a case of them focusing on those new routes and diverting resources accordingly.

I'm not hopeful, but I would love it if another operator picked up this route. Flybe did have dates available for the route on their website before the company went bust again, so hopefully Loganair or Blue Islands will see the market for this.

[Asturias56]

"There is money to be made by the right operator, offering reliability and a fair but profitable tariff. That doesn't mean the sort of fare one could fly Manchester to New York for!"

But people who charge these "exorbitant" fares still go bust regularly on internal UK routes - in fact they've been going bust for over 70 years. It's the overheads and the relatively small number of passengers that seem to kill them.

[OzzyOzBorn]

I agree with your general point, though MAN-SOU didn't have a "relatively small" number of passengers pre-covid. It supported upto six return Q400 flights per day. It is a much-needed route. I'm acutely aware that FlyBe failed, but I'm confident that the MAN-SOU route wasn't the reason for that. The issues faced by this company have been extensively discussed elsewhere - too thinly spread, expensive leases, uneconomic bases, and more.

Where I do think there is a problem is the very high payouts for short domestic sectors specified by delay compensation rules. I suspect that these payouts were a major factor in killing off Stobart's MAN-SEN route. The demanding schedule implemented on those ATR72's meant that delays often built up through the day, leaving many passengers eligible to claim very generous compensation. I would favour a system under which delay compensation for domestic flights is capped at the price paid for the ticket (similar to rail).

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Isn't domestic business travel still well behind pre-COVID levels though? The MAN-SOU x 6 daily was an old school business route, many of the regulars back then are now TWATs only on a good week and can WFH for the most part. Many client meetings are still Teams or Zoom.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Yes, but that reduced demand is why we are advocating for a service less frequent than six per day - but more frequent than none at all! A RELIABLE twice daily service with sensible pricing from the perspective of both the operator and customers would be a welcome initial solution. Also, the nature of the overland journey between Manchester and Southampton means that the market is not limited to business travellers alone.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Being reported elsewhere that the Air Canada A333 on this summer's MAN-YYZ will be flown by an Omni B767 on selected dates....

[HOVIS]

Being reported elsewhere that the Air Canada A333 on this summer's MAN-YYZ will be flown by an Omni B767 on selected dates....
Terrific, that won't cause a problem... at all. 🤔

[HOVIS]

The old BA hangar is finally back on the market. Any takers? It will need a damn good clean.

[laviation]

Being reported elsewhere that the Air Canada A333 on this summer's MAN-YYZ will be flown by an Omni B767 on selected dates....
Managed decline of this route. I would rather give my money to Transat anyway who do not arse about with a tiny little schedule!

[Mr Mac]

Hovis
One of mine 🙂 Longtime ago.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Mr A Tis]

I’m currently in the midst of a six hour expensive rail journey from Southampton to Manchester with rail replacement bus that stops a fair distance from Oxford station, in the pouring rain.
Eastern couldn’t have picked a worse time to dump the route. Anyone thinking of going by rail- forget it for the next 2 months. Missed opportunity by Eastern!

[Rutan16]

I’m currently in the midst of a six hour expensive rail journey from Southampton to Manchester with rail replacement bus that stops a fair distance from Oxford station, in the pouring rain.
Eastern couldn’t have picked a worse time to dump the route. Anyone thinking of going by rail- forget it for the next 2 months. Missed opportunity by Eastern!

With the line closed for several more weeks between Didcot and Oxford, travel from the coast will be a mare for sure . And the bus connections are only hourly I believe - Complete disaster . You could use the local service N2/32 however takes almost a hour to cover the 8 miles through Milton Park and Abingdon .

I presume the bus service is stoping on Park End Lane as opposed to the station car park ?

I suppose you are left with the 2 hour hike to Waterloo cross town and near 3 hour on Avanti ( if that’s not cancelled as well)

Was going to suggest Emerald via Belfast or Dublin but even that doesn’t work 😡

Does anything work in these isles at all these days ?

[laviation]

One thinks EasyJet will launch this MAN-SOU route at some point. 5x weekly A319. It still baffles me why they don’t fly LGW-MAN; no connection onto BA ever since they dropped the Gatwick route!

[OzzyOzBorn]

Runway slots are a major problem at LGW. Not so much at SOU.

Memo to MAG Route Development ... Are you reading this thread? When did you last phone Messrs Hinckles and Lundgren for a chat? Doesn't look like Eastern are interested!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

One thinks EasyJet will launch this MAN-SOU route at some point. 5x weekly A319. It still baffles me why they don’t fly LGW-MAN; no connection onto BA ever since they dropped the Gatwick route!
BA LGW is point to point aside from GLA which survives to rotate short haul maintenance through the hangar. BA aside, what does MAN-LGW serve if not connections most of which can be flown out of MAN? Is Brighton-MAN a draw? Crawley? West Sussex? If it's London, train makes way more sense.

[cavokblues]

Surprised Loganair haven't looked at Manchester - Southampton.

[laviation]

BA LGW is point to point aside from GLA which survives to rotate short haul maintenance through the hangar. BA aside, what does MAN-LGW serve if not connections most of which can be flown out of MAN? Is Brighton-MAN a draw? Crawley? West Sussex? If it's London, train makes way more sense.
BA Caribbean flights. The hideous trek down to Gatwick on M6, M40, M25, M23 et cetera puts many off. Trains can be very unreliable especially shown in these last 9-10 months of strikes. I think a Gatwick route would be 90% connections anyway. Probably if BA get some of those Max aircraft they may give it another go.

[SWBKCB]

Do the MAX's come with additional slots?!? :ok:

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

BA Caribbean flights. The hideous trek down to Gatwick on M6, M40, M25, M23 et cetera puts many off. Trains can be very unreliable especially shown in these last 9-10 months of strikes. I think a Gatwick route would be 90% connections anyway. Probably if BA get some of those Max aircraft they may give it another go.
Classic problem always was the revenue on flights with so many connections used to get allocated to long haul and the short haul business saw a loss as a result. It'd be no more than one LGW-MAN-LGW per day to feed as much of the long haul arrivals as possible BUT crucially the B777 fleet turns and starts departing from 10am when there's still 2-3 inbounds due or just landed. It's currently not even possible to feed the existing smallish long haul program with one daily flight. It's not gonna happen, the reborn operation died a quick death recently.

[GayFriendly]

Not that this will happen but I swear I flew LGW-MAN on Jet2 in 2004? It was for a job interview, I lived near Brighton at the time and it was far cheaper and quicker than getting the train!

​​​​​I'm surprised there is seemingly not enough P2P demand for a MAN-LGW service, given the long driving time and unreliable rail service that requires a cross London journey on the Tube

[sportzbar]

Not that this will happen but I swear I flew LGW-MAN on Jet2 in 2004? It was for a job interview, I lived near Brighton at the time and it was far cheaper and quicker than getting the train!

You're not wrong. The route started in January 2004 with prices starting from £15 one way. I can't remember when it ended though.....

[MARK9263]

First flight 17th January 2005 and final flight 24th March 2007

[cavokblues]

I'm surprised there is seemingly not enough P2P demand for a MAN-LGW service, given the long driving time and unreliable rail service that requires a cross London journey on the Tube

I can get a train from Gatwick airport to Manchester Piccadilly in 3 hrs 4 mins according to google maps. Unless feeding long haul flights I don't see how an airline is competitive with that on purely P2P traffic.

I think VLM used to do Manchester - City but the improvements to the West Coast mainline a decade ago or so killed it off.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I can get a train from Gatwick airport to Manchester Piccadilly in 3 hrs 4 mins according to google maps. Unless feeding long haul flights I don't see how an airline is competitive with that on purely P2P traffic.

I think VLM used to do Manchester - City but the improvements to the West Coast mainline a decade ago or so killed it off.
Killed it stone dead at the same time as LCY-LPL sadly, LCY was a proper focus city for blue Fokkers and MAN was a base if I recall correctly?

[davidjohnson6]

I thought the only reason for the additional London - Manchester/Liverpool flights around 2005-2007 was because the engineering work to upgrade the train line out of Euston made the train service absolutely hopeless. Yes, it was seriously sh*t - made the service in 2023 look absolutely admirable, even with all the irregularities over the last 12 months. Around 2006, you never knew until maybe a week in advance if there would be trains on a particular day or not - and no most people don't want to spend an extra 2 hours on a bus between two different trains en route.

[cavokblues]

IIRC even Eastern tried Stansted - Manchester in the mid 2000s?

Quite a few operators back then dipping their toes into the market.

[OzzyOzBorn]

​​​​​I'm surprised there is seemingly not enough P2P demand for a MAN-LGW service

It was never a customer demand problem. It is the availability of scarce runway slots at single-runway LGW. Those slots are a highly-prized resource which end up allocated to the most lucrative route bidding to use them. Timings which wrap around the regular business day are particularly elusive. Viewed as a standalone, MAN-LGW could be profitable. But that is irrelevant: there are other routes vying for those peak slots which are more lucrative and more profitable. The more compelling proposition will prevail. Supply and demand in action.

Although there was a short-lived MAN-LGW schedule last year, that came at a time when the post-covid recovery left unusual slot availability in the short-term. With normal service resumed, peak LGW slots will not trickle down to a MAN service.

[planedrive]

One thinks EasyJet will launch this MAN-SOU route at some point. 5x weekly A319. It still baffles me why they don’t fly LGW-MAN; no connection onto BA ever since they dropped the Gatwick route!

easyJet were asked to reduce their domestic ops for this summer after the debacle last year surrounding T1 Domestics/CTA having to be bussed in and sometimes half an hour (plus) waits whilst the buses manoeuvred around the one door. Only once they move over to T2 I can see them coming back onto ABZ/INV and potentially SOU/LGW.

[OzzyOzBorn]

If it is true that a MAG executive ASKED EasyJet to withdraw certain domestic services, then I would like to ASK that executive to find another job more suited to his / her skill level. Somewhere else. Not at Manchester. We've not long lost the FlyBe domestic hub, for goodness sake. And the trains are in chaos.

PLEASE REASSURE ME THAT IT AIN'T SO!!!

Something lost in translation, maybe?

[laviation]

Absolutely crazy if the EZY rumour is true!! Really would put the cherry on the top of MAG poor management. In other news, Jetblue formally announced the Amsterdam routes today. That is now 4 routes launching this year to CDG and AMS. I’d like to think the next targets will be Lisbon, then Dublin and then Manchester? I say this knowing full well this won’t happen, given the apparent recent actions of the management!

[Sotonsean]

IIRC even Eastern tried Stansted - Manchester in the mid 2000s?

Quite a few operators back then dipping their toes into the market.

​​​​Manchester to London Stansted was originally started by Manx Airways in 1992 which was subsequently taken over by British Airways.

BA/JE 7821 DEP MAN 06.50 ARR STN 07.50 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7823 DEP MAN 10.35 ARR STN 11.35 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7825 DEP MAN 17.30 ARR STN 18.30 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun

BA/JE 7822 DEP STN 08.20 ARR MAN 09.20 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7824 DEP STN 16.00 ARR MAN 17.00 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7826 DEP STN 19.00 ARR MAN 20.00 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun

British Airways axed MAN-STN in 2001 and the route was subsequently taken over by Eastern Airways. The same schedule was more or less kept to the original British Airways timings. I can't quite remember what year Eastern Airways abandoned the route, but I believe that it was around 2003/2004 although I stand to be corrected.

Regarding MAN-SOU

With the loss of MAN-SOU and the total unreliability of Eastern Airways the major cruise lines operating from the Port of Southampton have had to arrange additional coaches to transfer passengers between the two points. In normal circumstances up to two coaches would be available per ship from Manchester and from the surrounding area. For this coming cruise season which has recently commenced there will be up to six coaches per ship from Manchester and the surrounding areas. The ports parking facilities for cruise passengers has had to be expanded by 1200 places to accommodate the extra vehicles. MAN-SOU was always a very popular route for passengers joining their cruise from the Port of Southampton.

The Port of Southampton is Europe's busiest cruise turnaround port with five dedicated cruise terminals with up to twenty cruise company's operating from the Port. The average cruise ship departing the port accommodates up to 3,000 passengers. The Port of Southampton has 586 cruise calls for 2023 with approximately 2.3 million passengers expected through it's five cruise terminals.

A great deal of passengers arriving at the Port of Southampton from Scotland to join their cruise are using the services of Loganair. As mentioned above there are coaching opportunities direct to the Port of Southampton plus the unreliable railways. MAN-SOU is and has always been a very popular route, not just for passengers joining their cruise from the port but also for the wider region.

Southampton is the largest and most important city on the south coast and MAN-SOU serves a purpose and plays a very important part in the UK's domestic connectivity. The population of the City of Southampton and it's metro area is approximately 1.5 million.

Hopefully an airline far more reliable than Eastern Airways will eventually take on the route.

[Bbtengineer]

Certainly would not have called American reliable infact they were pretty useless what ever aircraft was used and got worse as the years progressed

I used to use American and the legacy Cactus route 10-12 round trips a year without much of any major incident.

Yes the 752 J product was inferior but they usually departed on time and I got the miles. Wasn’t much of anything wrong with the A333.

It’s a real shame that they never managed to make the 788 work on the JFK rotation. TCX probably kiboshed that and then went pop.

[Mr A Tis]

Given MAGs track record on freight, it would not surprise me at all if they (MAG) want to discourage any domestic flights. Let's face it- there are no specific domestic facilities & pax experience isn't great in T3. Probably in the too difficult tray, wanting to concentrate on high spending in shops bucket and spade flights.
Given the rail network state, MAG could have had a decent domestic business if they invested or cared about it.

[BACsuperVC10]

​​​​Manchester to London Stansted was originally started by Manx Airways in 1992 which was subsequently taken over by British Airways.

BA/JE 7821 DEP MAN 06.50 ARR STN 07.50 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7823 DEP MAN 10.35 ARR STN 11.35 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7825 DEP MAN 17.30 ARR STN 18.30 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun

BA/JE 7822 DEP STN 08.20 ARR MAN 09.20 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7824 DEP STN 16.00 ARR MAN 17.00 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7826 DEP STN 19.00 ARR MAN 20.00 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun

British Airways axed MAN-STN in 2001 and the route was subsequently taken over by Eastern Airways. The same schedule was more or less kept to the original British Airways timings. I can't quite remember what year Eastern Airways abandoned the route, but I believe that it was around 2003/2004 although I stand to be corrected.

Regarding MAN-SOU

With the loss of MAN-SOU and the total unreliability of Eastern Airways the major cruise lines operating from the Port of Southampton have had to arrange additional coaches to transfer passengers between the two points. In normal circumstances up to two coaches would be available per ship from Manchester and from the surrounding area. For this coming cruise season which has recently commenced there will be up to six coaches per ship from Manchester and the surrounding areas. The ports parking facilities for cruise passengers has had to be expanded by 1200 places to accommodate the extra vehicles. MAN-SOU was always a very popular route for passengers joining their cruise from the Port of Southampton.

The Port of Southampton is Europe's busiest cruise turnaround port with five dedicated cruise terminals with up to twenty cruise company's operating from the Port. The average cruise ship departing the port accommodates up to 3,000 passengers. The Port of Southampton has 586 cruise calls for 2023 with approximately 2.3 million passengers expected through it's five cruise terminals.

A great deal of passengers arriving at the Port of Southampton from Scotland to join their cruise are using the services of Loganair. As mentioned above there are coaching opportunities direct to the Port of Southampton plus the unreliable railways. MAN-SOU is and has always been a very popular route, not just for passengers joining their cruise from the port but also for the wider region.

Southampton is the largest and most important city on the south coast and MAN-SOU serves a purpose and plays a very important part in the UK's domestic connectivity. The population of the City of Southampton and it's metro area is approximately 1.5 million.

Hopefully an airline far more reliable than Eastern Airways will eventually take on the route.

A solution to the MAN-SOU problem ( I am actually trying to book to SOU myself for Aug and Nov, probably rail now) is to re-introduce LPL-SOU. The route has operated over a number of years by ATS Vulcan , FlyBe and Eastern. Was popular, LPL also services the NW, its one of the UKs biggest ports ( inc cruises ) and the airport could handle a domestic service such as this easily.

[Rutan16]

I somewhat suggest this is playing in the background within MAG Group and that their current marketing teams have been diminished because alleged and potentially illegal cross selling

https://www.pprune.org/11374976-post2241.html

I (opinion) expect the Manchester Team are sans deep leadership right now

Cargo was being handled via the East Midlands team. Stansted has its own problems with funding development and parent remains in a recovery process and in financial hock on T2 with known tarmac and parking ( airside) limitations.

I suggest and suspect Manchester remains in consolidation mode through to 2024 even 2025 .

No evidence but that rumour re Easy and domestics ( lack) fits plausibly with such a narrative .

Greenfinch I suppose Speke could pick up the baton on domestics especially with some financial incentive packages and even with a PSO or two.

Problems remain viable operators do they not , we have Loganair, Blue Island and Eastern left and none has enough aircraft or crews to work existing schedules let alone prepare for growth.
Loganair has set their target on prioritising and building up their remedial slots at Windsor and Slough regional
Blue Island I think they work on the dartboard approach and are constantly switching and cancelling routes
And Eastern no comment.

So who do you suggest ?

It also wouldn’t improve provincial connectivity INTO the Manchester long haul product would it.

BTW read elsewhere that the JLA tin can terminal has structural issues almost as bad as pier B and that Peel aren’t interested; is this true ?

[BACsuperVC10]

I somewhat suggest this is playing in the background within MAG Group and that their current marketing teams have been diminished because alleged and potentially illegal cross selling

https://www.pprune.org/11374976-post2241.html

I (opinion) expect the Manchester Team are sans deep leadership right now

Cargo was being handled via the East Midlands team. Stansted has its own problems with funding development and parent remains in a recovery process and in financial hock on T2 with known tarmac and parking ( airside) limitations.

I suggest and suspect Manchester remains in consolidation mode through to 2024 even 2025 .

No evidence but that rumour re Easy and domestics ( lack) fits plausibly with such a narrative .

Greenfinch I suppose Speke pick up the baton on domestics with some financial incentive packages and even with a PSO or two.
It wouldn’t however improve provincial connectivity INTO the Manchester long haul product through.

BTW read elsewhere that the JLA tin can terminal has structural issues almost as bad as pier B and that Peel aren’t interested; is this true ?

People from SOU would not be interested in the MAN long haul product with LHR and LGW available to them. and No

[Rutan16]

People from SOU would not be interested in the MAN long haul product with LHR and LGW available to them. and No

Prior to collapse of Flybe one Virgin and Emirates actually received some considerable feed from the regions indeed go back far enough and BAs New York service received feed from Southampton in particular

And the consolidators routinely offer fare bundles via what might seem odd combinations at times .

No doesn’t answer the second question posed you on the structural issues cladding etc….. ( I’ll wink here as I have an enquiry about that very issue on my desk )

[BACsuperVC10]

Prior to collapse of Flybe one Virgin and Emirates actually received some considerable feed from the regions indeed go back far enough and BAs New York service received feed from Southampton in particular

And the consolidators routinely offer fare bundles via what might seem odd combinations at times .

No doesn’t answer the second question posed you on the structural issues cladding etc….. ( I’ll wink here as I have an enquiry about that very issue on my desk )

There is only 2 flights a day, so feed is not what is was, if it was at all. Fares are always less from London anyway, so why would you.. I said No, have no idea what you are talking about, passing through LPL on Sunday, I will look to see if anything is a drift.

[Rutan16]

There is only 2 flights a day, so feed is not what is was, if it was at all. Fares are always less from London anyway, so why would you.. I said No, have no idea what you are talking about, passing through LPL on Sunday, I will look to see if anything is a drift.

It’s external sheeting cladding and internal fire containment and stopping work to the structural frame . Doubt you’ll know what to look for
The works to the structural steelwork is extensive much concealed and therefore a structural risk

Now I am loath to quote to be honest as the last job cost me 165k for 120 days

These sorts of issues are actually pretty common and unlike Pier 2 at least there isn’t an asbestos issue .

Manchester had about a quarter of a million transfer passengers per year prior to COVID and Flybe collapse Not insignifiant

Indeed prior to the collapse of Thomas Cook Uk their flights were in code share with Condor with Lufthansa connections so Manchester can work as a hub with the right infrastructure
You don’t become a near 30 million pa airport with 40 operators without some levels of inward feed operations

[BACsuperVC10]

Was actually just talking about getting between the NW and Southampton.....never mind

[eye2eye5]

I passed through LJLA on Saturday and didn’t notice any work around either the cladding or the frame, but that probably means nothing and I suppose any remedial work may not be in the public space. I have noted comments regarding the building requiring attention elsewhere.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Given MAGs track record on freight, it would not surprise me at all if they (MAG) want to discourage any domestic flights. Let's face it- there are no specific domestic facilities & pax experience isn't great in T3. Probably in the too difficult tray, wanting to concentrate on high spending in shops bucket and spade flights.
Given the rail network state, MAG could have had a decent domestic business if they invested or cared about it.
They used to have the best (IMHO) domestic offering in the UK back when Pier A was rebuilt as T1 Domestic. It was an oasis of well behaved, suited and booted calm, where BA's Landor B757s mixed with Loganair and Manx offering more UK domestic destinations than any other UK airport. I always thought that was GLA 's crown with all the Highlands and Islands airports, but no, t'was MAN back then. Of course traffic some was lost to the trains but many were lost to the trauma that is modern T3. It was a passenger experience delight, even without lounge access. Nowadays, domestic at MAN is summed up by BA not even caring enough to have their own lounge anymore. Yeah, follow the money, I know....

[Sotonsean]

Was actually just talking about getting between the NW and Southampton.....never mind

Regarding your previous reply which I appreciate.

I totally agree with you regarding a resumption of a service between LPL-SOU.

There are many reasons why a Liverpool to Southampton route should be successful.

Liverpool and Southampton are two great maritime gateways.
Both cities are well established partners and in particular in the ever growing cruise industry.
Liverpool as a destination in itself is a good enough reason.
Southampton with it's large catchment area and Europe's busiest cruise port.
Southampton and it's business link's, huge catchment area which includes the Isle of Wight and Portsmouth International Port.

I would love to see a resumption of a Liverpool to Southampton route. Being born and bred from Southampton and having a maritime background. The City of Liverpool will always have a special place in my heart. My second favourite city in England, without a shadow of a doubt.

​​​​​​I've been to Liverpool many times for business and as well as Manchester for weekend breaks but the thought a long drive ahead of me or a cancelled or delayed train scares me off. I'd much prefer to take the short flight compared to a hellish journey by road or rail. I have not been to Manchester since the collapse of Flybe (mark 1), all because of the absolute unreliability of the incumbent part time operator.

But if no other airline are interested in MAN-SOU than Eastern Airways what would be the outcome. The market is definitely there but the real problem we have is an absolute basket case of an airline that's totally ruining the opportunities available to them. Who in their right mind would book a flight with Eastern Airways feeling totally confident in the knowledge that it won't be cancelled.

So if no other airline are interested in operating MAN-SOU what are the options. Considering that there can't be much hope for a resumption of a Liverpool to Southampton route, unless maybe easyJet took an interest. But if easyJet we're interested in flying between the northwest of England to Southampton I should imagine that it would more than likely be a MAN-SOU route.

Message to easyJet.

Maybe and I said maybe, can you please consider starting MAN-SOU so that we don't have to put up with the totally useless and incompetent and part time incumbent operator we currently have to put up with.

I said maybe, Your gonna be the one that saves me, And after all, You're my wonderwall 👍


​​​​

[SWBKCB]

But if no other airline are interested in MAN-SOU than Eastern Airways what will be the outcome. The market is definitely there but the real problem we have is an absolute basket case of an airline totally ruining the opportunities available to them. Who in their right mind would book a flight with Eastern Airways feeling totally confident in the knowledge that it won't be cancelled.

If there was money to be made, do you really think Eastern would be putting them off? Clearly Eastern think there is money to be made elsewhere, and so does everybody else.

[BACsuperVC10]

When Flybe did LPL-SOU, they did a pretty good job, used it quite a few times, they even used BAe 146s at times, so was popular. Unfortunately when Eastern took over, they didn't offer the same type of service. Easyjet used to fly LPL-NQY and fly MAN-NQY now, so maybe, but I reckon their aircraft are well tied up for the summer.

[Sotonsean]

When Flybe did LPL-SOU, they did a pretty good job, used it quite a few times, they even used BAe 146s at times, so was popular. Unfortunately when Eastern took over, they didn't offer the same type of service. Easyjet used to fly LPL-NQY and fly MAN-NQY now, so maybe, but I reckon their aircraft are well tied up for the summer.

But Flybe only flew between Southampton and Liverpool for two years or so. I can't exactly remember the year it stopped but I have a feeling that the route operated between 2005 and 2007. Eastern Airways took over the route shortly after. But as is usually the case with this part time operator, they abandoned the route cuz "they couldn't be bothered".

Regarding easyJet on MAN-SOU, I wasn't expecting any immediate announcement from the airline as I'm fully aware of the fact that their current fleet are tied up for summer 2023.

Although LPL/MAN-NQY are two totally different markets to LPL/MAN-SOU.

Eastern Airways had a SOU-NQY flight scheduled to start in summer 2019. It was on sale and bookable on their website. But surprise, surprise the route was cancelled before the first flight had even took off. Another example of a totally useless and incompetent operator.

[BACsuperVC10]

But Flybe only flew between Southampton and Liverpool for two years or so. I can't exactly remember the year it stopped but I have a feeling that the route operated between 2005 and 2007. Eastern Airways took over the route shortly after. But as is usually the case with this part time operator, they abandoned the route cuz "they couldn't be bothered".

Regarding easyJet on MAN-SOU, I wasn't expecting any immediate announcement from the airline as I'm fully aware of the fact that their current fleet are tied up for summer 2023.

Although LPL/MAN-NQY are two totally different markets to LPL/MAN-SOU.

Eastern Airways had a SOU-NQY flight scheduled to start in summer 2019. It was on sale and bookable on their website. But surprise, surprise the route was cancelled before the first flight had even took off. Another example of a totally useless and incompetent operator.

Just very short of suitable operators these days, Wouldn't be so bad if Cross Country Trains were half decent .

[cavokblues]

It does make you wonder about the long term viability of regional flying in this country.... you would have thought Manchester - SOU would be able to sustain an airline where there is the potential for a huge time and cost saving over the train.

Eastern made an overall profit last year of 237k, on a turnover of 16m - a margin of 1.45%.

Surely there is a bigger margin to be made on a well run operation between Manchester - SOU? Flybe used to fly over 500k folk between the two cities pre Covid!

[chaps1954]

Lets face it Eastern are the most unpredictable airline who just don`t seem to be able to hack, it they chop and change on most routes and are not
an airline I would entertain or trust if I was making an important trip be it business or connecting with a cruise or long haul flight.

[SWBKCB]

Lets face it Eastern are the most unpredictable airline who just don`t seem to be able to hack, it they chop and change on most routes and are not
an airline I would entertain or trust if I was making an important trip be it business or connecting with a cruise or long haul flight.

And still going for over 20 years - long after many of their rivals have faded away...

[Sotonsean]

Just very short of suitable operators these days, Wouldn't be so bad if Cross Country Trains were half decent .

I've just been informed today that I am going to Liverpool for business during the coronation weekend and also on the 04 May for another event.

Another long and arduous drive from Southampton to the northwest cities of Liverpool and Manchester. But due to the fact that I have not been to either since before the pandemic I'm extremely excited about the upcoming visit.

Although a direct flight would have made the journey a lot more pleasant 😉

[Rutan16]

And still going for over 20 years - long after many of their rivals have faded away...

Started and still legally registered as Air Kilroe and formed at guess where ? Manchester Airport.
That said recent years were very much funded via Bristow and their US Parents .

[eye2eye5]

Well I didn’t know that. Thanks Rutan.

[EI-BUD]

It does make you wonder about the long term viability of regional flying in this country.... you would have thought Manchester - SOU would be able to sustain an airline where there is the potential for a huge time and cost saving over the train.

Eastern made an overall profit last year of 237k, on a turnover of 16m - a margin of 1.45%.

Surely there is a bigger margin to be made on a well run operation between Manchester - SOU? Flybe used to fly over 500k folk between the two cities pre Covid!

Great that they made a profit, however, I wonder did they even fill half the seats? Their pricing is always off the charts. Even on DUB SOU, their pricing was up to 4 times greater than that of Emerald. Pricing that is commonly available on such routes by Emerald. Even eclipsing BACF who operate summer seasonally, argueably it's a sort of positioning flight for them but Eastern were up in the bushes. I've often checked easten for flying inside the UK and I personally would describe it as insult pricing ... Come back names like Manx Airlines (the original of the Manx brands), Suckling, or even Eurodirect who just were great at joining all the dots, though sadly that didn't list long, but they had ambition. With ATPs too.

[SWBKCB]

I've often checked easten for flying inside the UK and I personally would describe it as insult pricing .. Come back names like Manx Airlines (the original of the Manx brands), Suckling, or even Eurodirect who just were great at joining all the dots, though sadly that didn't list long, but they had ambition. With ATPs too.

You might want to re-read that. Making profits is how airlines survive - not joining dots. :rolleyes:

[EI-BUD]

You might want to re-read that. Making profits is how airlines survive - not joining dots. :rolleyes:
Thanks SWBKCB,
I completely understand.
However, pricing so far out of line with the competition means empty seats and on routes where they have exclusivity charging pricing so high that there are again 50% empty seats is not the route to profitability at a sustainable level. Anyway I'm sure you've got the full optics of what happens inside eastern. It's really irrelevant to my flying needs.

[Accura]

But if no other airline are interested in MAN-SOU than Eastern Airways what would be the outcome. The market is definitely there but the real problem we have is an absolute basket case of an airline that's totally ruining the opportunities available to them. Who in their right mind would book a flight with Eastern Airways feeling totally confident in the knowledge that it won't be cancelled.​​​​

Blue Islands announced that they were going to run the route (in addition to Eastern) after Flybe folded in 2020, but it all went quiet.

I wonder if they'd reconsider given Eastern's lack of commitment to the route.

[Mr A Tis]

I'm hearing the airport had two brief closures last night, (Fri 28/29th April) causing extensive holding and at least three diverts out. Possible ATC staff shortages? can anyone confirm? Sounds like a case of cutting staff to the bone with no leeway in the system.

[SWBKCB]

Sounds like a case of cutting staff to the bone with no leeway in the system.

Bit of a strong statement when you don't even know what the cause was?

[MANFAN]

I'm hearing the airport had two brief closures last night, (Fri 28/29th April) causing extensive holding and at least three diverts out. Possible ATC staff shortages? can anyone confirm? Sounds like a case of cutting staff to the bone with no leeway in the system.

ATC staff shortage I believe who are of course employed by NATS and not the airport.
We don’t know the reason(s) behind the staff shortage, could be possible sickness for example and there was no time to get another member of staff at short notice.
I wouldn’t be happy as a passenger being diverted especially that time of the morning, however, these type of situations are sometimes unavoidable.

[Rutan16]

ATC staff shortage I believe who are of course employed by NATS and not the airport.
We don’t know the reason(s) behind the staff shortage, could be possible sickness for example and there was no time to get another member of staff at short notice.
I wouldn’t be happy as a passenger being diverted especially that time of the morning, however, these type of situations are sometimes unavoidable.

Seems the diverts had some hours advance notice and it wasn’t a sudden closure. Plenty of time for ground transfers to be organised within normal hours .

That said just another round of everything’s broke in the UK these days

[easyflyer83]

Seems the diverts had some hours advance notice and it wasn’t a sudden closure. Plenty of time for ground transfers to be organised within normal hours .

That said just another round of everything’s broke in the UK these days

Tbf, CPH have been having ongoing ATC issues lately with some long slot restriction delays and cancellations.

It does happen in other countries too.

[chaps1954]

Happens quite often at many airports with things like ATc and fire cover and it only takes one person going sick or has an accident and the cover is not availableQuote (https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11427575)

[Rutan16]

Tbf, CPH have been having ongoing ATC issues lately with some long slot restriction delays and cancellations.

It does happen in other countries too.
Total distraction technique Easyflyer,

Were in Nantes last week and levels of disruption were certainly on a differing scale were also in Tottenham Thursday and a ULEZ protect going on there was small fry .

Also talking with one of my daughters friends about Paris and we have it light here with industrial action

Doesn’t detract from the statement re England .

Things here are broken at a structural level across society

[easyflyer83]

Total distraction technique Easyflyer,

Were in Nantes last week and levels of disruption were certainly on a differing scale were also in Tottenham Thursday and a ULEZ protect going on there was small fry .

Also talking with one of my daughters friends about Paris and we have it light here with industrial action

Doesn’t detract from the statement re England .

Things here are broken at a structural level across society

Perhaps so but this isn’t an example of that.

[chaps1954]

Like any place of employment if someone goes off sick it causes problems

[MARK 101]

Think we need to the responsibility of the job. if you are not feeling 100% and as a result make an error ,its not as if the consequences are insignificant. hence more liklehood of people calling in sick rather than trying to work through it

[Rutan16]

Like any place of employment if someone goes off sick it causes problems

And the lack of structure and remedial action plans is a business problem

Nothing against people phoning in sick , however an organisation has to include plans to manage that scenario . This is part of the broke England that I refer to .

Indeed I’d sooner people do (and are paid - not the pathetic SSP either ) .

There is evidence that organisations with sick pay and leave have fewer lost days than otherwise mean companies , however we are far from an aviation debate at this point .

[laviation]

Egyptair to launch 5x weekly service to MAN from 01JUL23, thanks SeanM1997 on Twitter
Presumably 737 although may be one of their nice A320neo.
Good to see Cairo return anyhow
Tue, Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun services
Source

[Una Due Tfc]

It's a legal requirement that an Air Traffic Controller must get a minimum 30 minute break every 2 hours. What you often see in staff shortages therefore is closures every 2 hours for 30 mins at a time, as there's nobody available to cover said breaks, which sounds like it may have happened here. The same thing has happened at least twice in DUB in recent weeks in the small hours of the morning. Pre COVID there was already a major shortage of Controllers globally. Then during the pandemic there were lots of redundancies, and anyone who retired wasn't replaced, so things are even worse now. It's by no means unique to MAN or NATS. Karlsruhe, Marseille, Barcelona and other en route centers are all very badly affected virtually every day.

Regarding Egyptair, they've been hoovering up passengers to South Africa in DUB, apparently they're a very good connecting option, so I should imagine they'll try for similar at MAN.

[chaps1954]

Una yes I agree it can be very difficult to cover staff if it is a specialist job.
I think Egyptair are in a good position to pick up some African traffic as long as they don`t hit Ethiopian.

[VickersVicount]

Una yes I agree it can be very difficult to cover staff if it is a specialist job.
I think Egyptair are in a good position to pick up some African traffic as long as they don`t hit Ethiopian.
Lets hope none of the Sudan troubles spill over to any of the neighbouring areas…

[Rutan16]

Lets hope none of the Sudan troubles spill over to any of the neighbouring areas…

Parts of Ethiopia have their own issues today and have for decades however Addis is militarily well protected .

The foreign office has several do not travel notices about areas of Ethiopia outside Addis and has had for a long time.
Trigray, Borders with Eritrea, Sudan and Somalia all have the highest Do Not Travel at all warnings.

[SWBKCB]

It has beaten off competition from London Stansted, which came in second place, Luton Airport in third and Heathrow in fourth, with Edinburgh coming in fifth. Factors which put Manchester in the top slot included the number of restaurants on site - 30 compared to just 40 at the considerably larger Heathrow - average reviews scores (3.3), vegan or vegetarian options (26 of the total 30), gluten-free options (9) and average food prices.

An average meal at Manchester Airport costs £9.15p, compared to £14.06 at Heathrow and £6.70 at second place Stansted. Making up the rest of the UK top 10 is George Best Belfast City at six, London City at seven, Gatwick at eight, Newcastle International at nine and Leeds Bradford at 10.

MEN - Manchester Airport has the 'UK's best food'... apparently (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink-news/manchester-airport-uks-best-food-26835045)

[Mr A Tis]

https://simpleflying.com/edinburgh-airport-aiming-us-pre-clearance-next-two-years/

Reported that Edinburgh hope to achieve US pre clearance within the next two years.
What happened to Manchester's great ambitious plans for the new T2?
Our US offerings appear to have collapsed with the loss of Delta, United & American. Virgin can't even keep the Atlanta going & as for Canadian services -Air Canada, I'm not sure why they even bother.
Dublin & Edinburgh appear to be the go to places for airlines now outisde of Heathrow.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Not quite as bleak as that. DUB and EDI (and London) have been go-to places for NORTH AMERICAN traffic, because they are popular with US outbound leisure customers. And post-covid, that's where the early action has been, since the Biden regime was slow to relax C-19 restrictions for us. USD exchange rates have been a major headwind for GBP earners too, though fantastic for those paid in USD. MAN has come back strongly on eastbound long-haul, short-haul leisure, no frills and European legacy scheduled.

Notable market weakspots for MAN are North America and Caribbean long haul, plus domestic routes (except Northern Ireland) in the new post-FlyBe reality. Both of those sectors will struggle to return to the heyday of 2019 traffic levels, though improvement from current throughput should be achievable. I have long been a critic of Air Canada's short-season operation which serves as a spoiler for year-round Air Transat. However, in defence of Air Canada, I do accept that delivery issues at Boeing are causing short-term problems with fleet availability. The Omni-Air B763 operation is likely a symptom of that.

FWIW, my own view is that US pre-clearance is no longer a good fit at MAN. A decade ago, yes. But now we are in a world of fast-improving immigration technology; when I last flew MAN-IAH I was through in about 20 minutes. No hassle at all. Also, USPC is an extremely expensive commitment with the host airport and associated carriers on the hook to foot the bill. Though this gets passed on to the passengers in the form of higher fares - and NW England is a price-sensitive market with a strong bias towards outbound leisure travel. And on top of the financial considerations, USPC requires an airside pier to be sterilised for its exclusive use. That is a significant blow to flexibility at an already space-restricted facility. If MAN does eventually go for USPC, I won't be complaining about it, though I really feel that there is no longer a compelling case for it, all variables considered. Immigration technology has moved on at pace and we must expect that trend to continue.

[tartan 201]

And on top of the financial considerations, USPC requires an airside pier to be sterilised for its exclusive use. That is a significant blow to flexibility at an already space-restricted facility. If MAN does eventually go for USPC, I won't be complaining about it, though I really feel that there is no longer a compelling case for it, all variables considered. Immigration technology has moved on at pace and we must expect that trend to continue.

I don't think DUB's arrangement has an airside pier sterilised for USPC exclusive use. The facility there uses the lower level of the pier serving the 400 series gates, with non-USPC flights served from gates from the upper level of that pier. So the pier overall serves a mix of USPC and non-USPC destinations.

In any event because, as you say, we must expect the trend in immigration technology to continue to move on at pace, the proposal at EDI envisages the use of facial recognition technology to allow USPC passengers to continue to access the entire terminal space. I'm not sure how that would work given that you'd be mixing passengers security screened to two different standards (US and UK) but time will tell.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Air Canada just took another B789 (from BHX no less!) and had added a whole subfleet of ex SQ A330s, the pain point was B767 sized aircraft with the wholesale removal of that type from mainline and latterly Rouge. Two more B789s to come (only one?) before the A321NEOs.
EDI's proposal to allow passengers free reign in the main terminal post any US CBP formalities surely won't work, not least from a Customs perspective, you can't freely mix with the hoi poloi then arrive at a normal US domestic gate surely.

[laviation]

when I last flew MAN-IAH I was through in about 20 minutes.
IAH have always been good with immigration. My last trip in APR22 took only 15 minutes to get through when BA 787 (what I flew in), LH 748, AF 777, KLM 787 had all landed about the same time!

[Una Due Tfc]

I don't think DUB's arrangement has an airside pier sterilised for USPC exclusive use. The facility there uses the lower level of the pier serving the 400 series gates, with non-USPC flights served from gates from the upper level of that pier. So the pier overall serves a mix of USPC and non-USPC destinations.

There's large glass doors that can seal off elements of the upper level for US flights in peak times also in DUB, then off peak they open again returning the upper level for non US-bound flights. The main area of contention around all this is Emirates. When USPC is in full swing, only one gate is suitable in T2 for their ops and if the previous occupier is late departing they are stuck waiting. The DUB facility is pretty much at capacity now most of the day..until recently that almost eradicated the advantage as you had queue to go through security again in USPC. This is no longer the case thankfully as the regular screening equipment has been upgraded to US standard.

The value of USPC varies. If you are taking a connecting flight in the US, it greatly assists in short connection times when you land and removes a great deal of the stress. If you are travelling on a short business trip and managed to get on with just hand luggage you can be in a taxi in less than 10 mins in LAX in particular. Also some airports in the US are far worse than others for queuing at their end for immigration. I haven't flown to a US airport without pre-clearance much due the DUB and SNN facilities, but MIA and LAX were always particularly dire for me. JFK and MCO could also be very bad depending on what other flights offloaded just prior to mine and were also in the same queue.

Is it worth doing at MAN? I can certainly see VS in particular wanting it, which means DL should be lobbying for it too. All the noise out of EI are that they are committed long term to MAN and see future growth. Seems a no brainer for EDI, but there's no way the US will allow pre-cleared pax to mix with every other passenger after screening I'd imagine.

[roverman]

On USPC, I retired from MAG three years ago but was working on MAN-TP right up to the end. Including USPC was examined in some detail, working with the US authorities and looking at the set up in DUB. At the time we had a lot more US traffic than today. The issues were a) space in the extended/refurbished Terminal 2 and how this impacted on movement of passengers and their dwell time in retail; plus inevitably b) capital and operating cost. The US was willing to cover at least some of the operating costs but there were substantial capital costs which would not be covered by the US or UK authorities and had not been built into the base construction budget. Outline costed proposals for inclusion of USPC were put to the joint airport/airline infrastructure consultative committee and rejected on the basis of value for money, considering the likely improvements in immigration and customs technology and the potential loss of revenues from retail/catering etc. By contrast in Dublin the legacy cost was covered by the Irish Government and I believe the operation is still thus covered or subsidised to the present day.

[laviation]

Discussion on the Edinburgh thread about Hainan.. think we could see daily flights coming back? We're currently back to the pre-covid 4x weekly. I think the VFR market is definitely growing (including the possible Hong Kong connections) and of course university students. Wouldn't surprise me if Air China gave PEK/Daxing or PVG a go in the future.. well see if Juneyao finally go ahead with the Shanghai route.. they held slots for Summer 23 but retracted them.

[Mr Mac]

They used to have the best (IMHO) domestic offering in the UK back when Pier A was rebuilt as T1 Domestic. It was an oasis of well behaved, suited and booted calm, where BA's Landor B757s mixed with Loganair and Manx offering more UK domestic destinations than any other UK airport. I always thought that was GLA 's crown with all the Highlands and Islands airports, but no, t'was MAN back then. Of course traffic some was lost to the trains but many were lost to the trauma that is modern T3. It was a passenger experience delight, even without lounge access. Nowadays, domestic at MAN is summed up by BA not even caring enough to have their own lounge anymore. Yeah, follow the money, I know....
Skip
I would totally agree with you on all counts. BA lounge is the same as Lufthansa, and believe me I have told them some what repeatedly that it is dire.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[BHX5DME]

April 2023 pax

STN – 2,350,679 down 1.6% on Apr 2019

MAN – 2,176,450 down 8.9% on Apr 2019

EMA – 312,361 down 20.6% on Apr 2019



Manchester Airports Group (MAG) served 4.8 million passengers in April, as passenger operations continue to ramp-up towards the peak summer season.

MAG, which owns and operates Manchester, London Stansted and East Midlands Airports saw year-on-year passenger numbers increase by 16.4%.

London Stansted and Manchester Airport both served more than 2 million passengers each, totalling 2.4m and 2.2m passengers respectively. Stansted’s overall figure was up 16% on last year, with Manchester’s increasing by 15% year-on-year.

East Midlands Airport saw the highest overall percentage increase for the month of April, serving more than 300,000 passengers – up 25% on 2022.

MAG’s rolling 12-month passenger total to April 2023 stood at 54.8 million passengers – up 123% on the total to April 2022.

Service levels across all three airports remain strong, with 99% of passengers at East Midlands Airport getting through security in under 15 minutes. At London Stansted the figure stood at 98%, and at Manchester Airport the figure was 96%.

In April, MAG welcomed the publication of Sustainable Aviation’s (SA) updated Decarbonisation Roadmap. Formally launched at the Sustainable Skies Summit at Farnborough, the Report set out the progress the UK aviation industry in making in the roll out of low and zero emission flight technologies. The Road-Map also explained how the UK could position itself as a world leader in aviation decarbonisation, but that increased support from the UK Government is needed to ensure this opportunity is not lost.

The Government’s Jet Zero Council, of which MAG is a founding member, also convened for its latest meeting at the Sustainable Skies Summit to discuss the industry’s progress towards net zero by 2050.

[davidjohnson6]

London Stansted and Manchester Airport both served more than 2 million passengers each, totalling 2.4m and 2.2m passengers respectively. Stansted’s overall figure was up 16% on last year, with Manchester’s increasing by 15% year-on-year.

East Midlands Airport saw the highest overall percentage increase for the month of April, serving more than 300,000 passengers – up 25% on 2022.

Service levels across all three airports remain strong, with 99% of passengers at East Midlands Airport getting through security in under 15 minutes. At London Stansted the figure stood at 98%, and at Manchester Airport the figure was 96%.
Why is Manchester airport still a significant laggard on security ? Admittedly the 8 hour queues of last year are gone... but the security screening process at MAN still seems to be struggling rather more than (for example) Stansted.

I ask also from personal experience. Currently, it all seems a rather chaotic experience if you don't have fast track access

[UnderASouthernSky]

Why is Manchester airport still a significant laggard on security ? Admittedly the 8 hour queues of last year are gone... but the security screening process at MAN still seems to be struggling rather more than (for example) Stansted.

I ask also from personal experience. Currently, it all seems a rather chaotic experience if you don't have fast track access

Might the difference in customer demographic account for some of it? Does more long haul equal more passengers taking up more time once at security itself?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I always thought the oppressive closed in environment has a lot to do with mindset and behaviour. GLA and LGW are usually a good experience having fairly vast and open security halls, even when only a few lanes are open. At MAN, the tension and frustration is palpable by comparison.

[chaps1954]

According to figures published by Manchester Airport in April 96% pax cleared from check in to gate and on stand to clear aiport 100% by 30 minutes

[SCFC1EP]

I regularally travel through Manchester around twice per month

Security through terminal 3 recently has been a breeze to get through, genually around 10 minutes however last Friday went through terminal 1 at 0500hrs for 0610 departure arrived at entrance in terminal 1 only to be told to go through downstairs security next to jet2 check in, but they were getting people to queue upstairs to go downstairs, however I just walked passed and everyone downstairs checking in with jet2 was joining the queue so those upstairs had no chance,, however the queue was back to the stairs, and not moving,I asked a member of staff why upstairs was not open, told it was too busy, however when I went pass I could not see anyone in a queue, likely only fast track was open, this seems to be regular at Manchester., anyway back downstairs the queue was not moving when I said my gate closes in 40 minutes this queue would never get me through was told with a reply where you been, obviously not going to help spoke to a second person, they just said walk down to fast track see if they let you through in which they did, however it was jammed going through by the time that i scanned my boarding card gate was 10 minutes from closing now, spoke to another meber of staff explained that gate closes in 10 minutes, response I got was we only prioritise passengers through 30 minutes before departure time, explained all gates close 30 minutes before departure time but was having none of it, the attitude was we don't care, luckily a passenger told me to jump in there spot, finally got through but after allocated gate closing time and after a run to the gate just managed to board flight, only because they were late completing boarding flight meant i made the flight.
The attitude and assistance of the staff is totally couldn't careless attitude

[sportzbar]

I regularally travel through Manchester around twice per month

Security through terminal 3 recently has been a breeze to get through, genually around 10 minutes however last Friday went through terminal 1 at 0500hrs for 0610 departure

Cam I just ask which airline you were travelling with? I only ask as most airlines recommend arriving at the airport 2.5-3 hours before departure. From what you are saying (not sure how long it took you to check in), but it would appear you left a lot less time to get through than advised.

Obviously this doesn't take away from the fact that the staff didn't seem to be communicating with one another, which is abysmal and makes queues longer in some cases, but most airlines wouldn't advise turning up at security at 05.00 for a 06.10 departure, if that is what happened

[UnderASouthernSky]

And "all gates close 30 minutes before departure" is a new one on me. My experience is 10 minutes - 15 for long haul. Signs saying "gate closing" doesn't mean it has already done so.

[Mr A Tis]

Through T2 security in about 15 mins this week, but yet again bag taken for secondary. Happens 50% of the time at MAN but no other airport. This time it was an umbrella- seriously, had to be taken out & bag rescanned. Having been through Asia & AMS extensively this year nothing is taken out, liquids or electronics (except power banks) but now my umbrella is an issue in Manchester of all places.

[Dct_Mopas]

Through T2 security in about 15 mins this week, but yet again bag taken for secondary. Happens 50% of the time at MAN but no other airport. This time it was an umbrella- seriously, had to be taken out & bag rescanned. Having been through Asia & AMS extensively this year nothing is taken out, liquids or electronics (except power banks) but now my umbrella is an issue in Manchester of all places.

Your absolutely correct, the amount of time wasted by unnecessary secondary bag checks at Manchester is beyond ridiculous. You’ll get people defending this with security reasons/ passengers at fault/ safety first. All valid points.

However those valid points fail to acknowledge the level at which this happens compared to other UK airports complying with the same regulations. The only common theme is Manchester, but nothing changes.

[davidjohnson6]

Cam I just ask which airline you were travelling with? I only ask as most airlines recommend arriving at the airport 2.5-3 hours before departure. From what you are saying (not sure how long it took you to check in), but it would appear you left a lot less time to get through than advised.
Travel agents usually advise turning up 3 hours before a flight just to cover their backsides. Even when travelling out of super-strict airports, being at an airport 2 hours in advance is usually sufficient, unless you are a complex case or there's a particular problem (and yes, I have had the "we think you are a terrorist" treatment when departing from Tel Aviv so I know how long it takes). For flying from a normal UK airport to a normal destination, being at security 1 hour before a flight should be enough - if that's too short, then something somewhere has gone wrong. Manchester should be able to cope with this expectation, just like any other UK airport.

[SCFC1EP]

The flight was with easyjet

Clearly shows on boarding pass that gate closes at 0530 hrs for 0610 departure so actually 40 minutes before depaerture

Ryanair shows gate closes 30 minutes before departure

As we know airlines often close the gate after the time they say, however I've seen it numerous times, that once the last person in the queue has gone pass boarding and they are after the gate closes time they will close the gate immediatley, without announcements, especially ryanair

[laviation]

Could be complete BS, but I hear rumours of Air India coming in Winter 2023 to Delhi and Mumbai with 787-8. I assume the same frequencies as previously applied for Summer 2023. Something to look out for nonetheless.. if they don't come in 2023 it will be 2024, their huge fleet expansion means a MAN route is inevitable anyhow.

[AlwaysWatching1]

JET2https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif
https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif
2 or 3 years ago I recall the minutes from a Gtr Manchester counsellor who suggested at the Manchester Airport Consultative Committee meeting,

"....why not share our aviation wealth across the region"

He was referring to traffic being artificially diverted to Liverpool away from Manchester if it "got busy", he will I suspect have been putting the garlands up today.
one wonders if he knew something ?

Jet2s decision to set up a new base down the road is in my view final confirmation if need be that the strategic management of Manchester in the last 10 years has been misguided, others may react more strongly, the handling of the transformation programme being the proverbial icing on the cake.

In 2015 the North of England was promised massive expansion, a single 35m pax capacity terminal with world class facilities, including pre clearance (now dropped) notwithstanding a pandemic it's now 2023 and progress is glacial with continuing adverse effects on day to day operations and seemingly no thought for the impact this might have on airline strategic thinking nor their operations ! Well we know what Jet2 are thinking ! Who will be next ?

(NB... worth mentioning the pandemic did not affect this timeline it was touted as a min 10 year project as far back as 2015).

Manchester has already abdicated its once superb freight offering created by one of the airports former CEOs, Gil Thompson, but now it appears worse is to come, with passenger movements also strained.
4 aircraft with high utilization has effectively provided a gift to a competitor airport 35 mins away. The CEO at Liverpool will i suspect be raising a glass to the MAG board today.

1.3m pax a year on plate without lifting a finger and of course if successful why not base more over there. If growth at Manchester remains constrained why not ? It's 1.3m pax EVERY YEAR and who knows, there might be more to follow.

Manchester is not in a position where it can dictate to airlines when and how they operate. Yes Manchester needs to sweat the assets, that is understood , but whilst appreciating it needs to fill up slots as best it can, (61 max per hour), and indeed smooth out peaks and troughs, it is equally dependent on based units crucially ensuring they return on wave 1 and wave 2 providing recurring/repeat daily services, more so than airlines operating services from remote locations. Manchester is not Heathrow, where demand always outstrips supply and slots can be traded at a premium.

With over £1 billion poured into the ongoing Terminal Transformation Project (which seems to be effectively choking off growth rather than creating it ), why has there not been a corresponding increase in apron capacity to allow for a flex in demand and to cover the seemingly never ending disruption of WIP? We are not talking months here, its now been 8 years with seemingly no end in sight.

If "wait for it" , 10+ years to extend a terminal wasn't bad enough, there will now be further ongoing disruption as MAG decide to build another pier, but don't worry we are not done yet, as there is no plan for a mothballed decaying terminal which when emptied will act as a skeletal building simply to park aircraft prior to tow, to what will hopefully be a completed shiny new terminal. More on that plan no doubt in 2 years.

Manchester is to all intents and purposes a facility for LoCost passengers, why do they need more piers? Without wishing to decry the facilities offered to EZY, RYR, TUI and JET2 passengers who make up the bulk of the traffic and whose holidaymakers will ultimately be the benefactors when the old terminal is closed down, one does wonder if this is becoming a gold plated vanity project as a legacy of current senior management before they collect their pension ? Thus far the new terminal seems to be struggling to attract the new long haul offering we were promised.

In order to ensure the current level of passenger aircraft is squeezed in , we have the transfer over the last 6 years of cargo operators , systematically moved to EMA in an effort to free up space for passenger movements. The farce of PPE traffic using Liverpool and indeed practically every airport in the UK except Manchester during Covid should have been a wake up call that "something" was going dramatically wrong in terms of strategic joined up thinking.

Constraints on handling freight has now seemingly infected passenger movements. Some mainline charters and biz jets with Manchester originating passengers now appear equally affected.

Manchester City ladies team, The Manchester City Youth team, Manchester City supporters, and even 2 weeks ago a Qatar government A340 which was due at MAN for parking subsequently cancelled and ended up in Brussels at 36 hours notice. Coincidence, maybe, maybe not. On Wednesday this week the airport hosts an influx of executive jets for the football, most will drop off passengers but some will then have to depart.to Liverpool for parking.

The simple truth no matter how this is dressed up, is that Manchester may be heading toward a situation where it regularly has little option but to turn away some business on a weekly basis, the worry is how bad will it get ?

Jet2 setting up a base up the road should set alarm bells ringing They would not be duplicating cost and basing 4 aircraft at an airport which as the crow flies is 20.7 miles away if Manchester had flexed sufficient apron space at the appropriate time.

There were 44 departures from Liverpool on Monday 15th May , over half , (23), were to Eire, N Ireland and the IOM. Unless JET2 are starting charters to Dublin, Belfast, Knock and the Isle of Man they cannot possibly be chasing market share, not when the market from Manchester is 5 times larger, why move aircraft to an airport 5 times smaller than the catchment area you currently serve , it makes no commercial sense, it points to an artificial displacement of service from Manchester does it not ?

It's a bit like Qantas justifying a new additional service but operating from Birmingham.

Poor decision making has not been restricted to infrastructure spend in certain areas. Promoting the MD at EMA to CEO at Manchester was another puzzling appointment akin to a top 4 premiership team employing the manager from say Northampton Town. Baffling !

At least the latest CEO from LGW has played for the big boys lets hope he has the autonomy outside the MAG board to make the right decisions moving forward. and quick. If some concrete is not laid growth at Manchester will reach a celling not governed by the 35m pax terminal but an inability to service it fully.

Long live the late Sir Gil Thompson, I suspect he would have handled things differently.

[roverman]

Jet 2 LPL. I really wouldn't get too worried about this. It's fits in with Jet 2's gradual expansion across the UK. I would only be concerned if there was a corresponding reduction in their offering from MAN but I haven't heard any suggestion that there will be. They have a huge operation out of MAN, and all those proposed LPL routes are served from MAN, where capacity needs to be kept or made available for strategic long-haul routes which are not served or are under-served. LAX, DEL, BOM, BKK, ORD, SFO, LAS, BOS, YVR, none of which will be served from LPL or by Jet 2 any time soon. We are doing fine for flights to family sun spots and I don't see that declining. Some Merseyside/Cheshire passengers will use LPL as they do for Ireland and Spain, no problem there.

[eggc]

You could flip all of this and imagine how LPL has not been too pleased watching RYR and EZY become far far bigger at MAN than LPL. MAN has been seen many fold more growth from these pair while LPL as hovered at a similar level for years. LPL has to find a way to grow somehow and Jet2 seems a good fit with excellent reputation and product - they are a great success wherever they go.

As for Jet2 at MAN are they not nearly done there anyway ? Where could they have flown another 3 or 4 aircraft to ? Their network is very comprehensive at MAN and new opportunities must be limited now in regards to new sun and city breaks, so I see their growth at MAN coming with the introduction of more and larger 321NEO's rather than new destinations or increased frequencies, unless they somehow figure how to offer their holiday packages to the likes of Florida, Mexico and the Carribean and go long haul.....but is that Jet2's thing...I'm not so sure it is.

I see this as Jet2 increasing their nationwide market share and EZY / RYR at LPL will feel their arrival more than taking away from MAN. It will be interesting to see how RYR and EZY react at LPL now, more so maybe EZY as their business model these days certainly seems to favour bigger operations at bigger airports and I do wonder if LPL fits in with this in the medium term and maybe more so now Jet2 are setting up camp there.

[Northsky]

I dont post much, but post 2478 gave me some food for thought. In particular the posters concern about what effect Jet2 putting a base in a nearby airport might do to Manchester and how management appears to be incompetent as a result.

I look at it a different way. Manchester historically has been so good at drumming up business that it punches well above its weight for the area it serves. So much so that it has a monopoly to many destinations from the North West/Yorkshire.

Manchester has become so successful that alot of people will put MAN into a search engine before checking their local airport. They book the flight and then drive past their local airport to reach MAN, despite a flight often being available from say LPL or LBA. I've lost count of the times I've asked someone why they didn't fly from LPL when they live much closer, and the response being "Oh I didn't know you could".

To help me illustrate my point, take TFS, Manchester's busiest route in 2022 (and one to be launched by Jet2 at LPL) and compare passenger traffic compared to LBA/LPL
MAN 814,495
LBA 191,476
LPL 71,690
Considering the population of all three metropolitan areas (forget political boundaries) are not vastly different, its clear to see how effective MAN management have been historically in securing business.
Further to this, with Liverpool in particular, the difference in journey times by car from most areas away from these cities is relatively small.

To consider the thoughts in your post, is this not a bit of long overdue rebalancing? For short haul/high demand destinations at least, which is exactly Jet2's core market.

Why should the locals of Leeds/Liverpool trek all the way to Manchester when their own city is certainly large enough and connected enough to sustain a more diverse choice of flights?

Why should airlines put all their eggs in one basket and not have a base at others to trade the two off to get better fees.

To me, the average consumer, I can only see it as a positive that there is more choice. I consider MAN to have enjoyed a near monopoly in the North for too long and a dose of competition is what's needed to benefit the wider public.

I would imagine in an ideal world, the quick selling short haul destinations market would be fairly equal in size from MAN/LBA/LPL, with MAN excelling in the more niche markets and long haul as it is more central to the wider population. The reality is far from that, even with considering all the quirks of the aviation industry (e.g duplicating base costs).

[WHBM]

Cam I just ask which airline you were travelling with? I only ask as most airlines recommend arriving at the airport 2.5-3 hours before departure. From what you are saying (not sure how long it took you to check in), but it would appear you left a lot less time to get through than advised.
So you think that for an 06.10 departure (as here) everyone should arrive at the airport by 03.10 ?

[HOVIS]

So you think that for an 06.10 departure (as here) everyone should arrive at the airport by 03.10 ?
That is indeed the advice the airport gives.
This is from an email I received from Easyjet...

There may be delays at the airport security control before your flight and we recommend that you arrive at MAN airport 3 hours before your flight time.

Please have your bags ready before you go through security, making sure that any liquids are carried in a see-through and resealable bag, and that any electronic items are carried separately.

The boarding gate will close promptly 30 minutes before the scheduled departure time.

Please share this message with any other customers who are travelling with you.

[sportzbar]

So you think that for an 06.10 departure (as here) everyone should arrive at the airport by 03.10 ?
I'd say so. We all know there are problems with security at Manchester, particularly the bottleneck that is T1 and that is the advice given by the airline.

Sure it's frustrating when you do just that and breeze through in 10 mins, but if you do decide to arrive at a time that the airline hasn't advised, such as 1.5-2 hours before and you get caught in the security queue, which we all know about, and then the gate closes because you didn't arrive on time, then you can't blame the airline or airport who advised you to arrive 3 hours before.

Believe me I wish we could go back to the days when it was common to arrive no more than 2 hours before for an international flight at 45 mins for a domestic flight but circumstances right now don't allow that. Perhaps in the next 12-18 months we may see improvements (here's hoping). So the choice is, do as advised or use a different airport.

Personally I think the solution is not to keep chopping and changing the top security management but for the airport to look at the training they are providing to the staff as that is where the problems really are.....

[AlwaysWatching1]

I dont post much, but post 2478 gave me some food for thought. In particular the posters concern about what effect Jet2 putting a base in a nearby airport might do to Manchester and how management appears to be incompetent as a result.

I look at it a different way. Manchester historically has been so good at drumming up business that it punches well above its weight for the area it serves. So much so that it has a monopoly to many destinations from the North West/Yorkshire.

Manchester has become so successful that alot of people will put MAN into a search engine before checking their local airport. They book the flight and then drive past their local airport to reach MAN, despite a flight often being available from say LPL or LBA. I've lost count of the times I've asked someone why they didn't fly from LPL when they live much closer, and the response being "Oh I didn't know you could".

To help me illustrate my point, take TFS, Manchester's busiest route in 2022 (and one to be launched by Jet2 at LPL) and compare passenger traffic compared to LBA/LPL
MAN 814,495
LBA 191,476
LPL 71,690
Considering the population of all three metropolitan areas (forget political boundaries) are not vastly different, its clear to see how effective MAN management have been historically in securing business.
Further to this, with Liverpool in particular, the difference in journey times by car from most areas away from these cities is relatively small.

To consider the thoughts in your post, is this not a bit of long overdue rebalancing? For short haul/high demand destinations at least, which is exactly Jet2's core market.

Why should the locals of Leeds/Liverpool trek all the way to Manchester when their own city is certainly large enough and connected enough to sustain a more diverse choice of flights?

Why should airlines put all their eggs in one basket and not have a base at others to trade the two off to get better fees.

To me, the average consumer, I can only see it as a positive that there is more choice. I consider MAN to have enjoyed a near monopoly in the North for too long and a dose of competition is what's needed to benefit the wider public.

I would imagine in an ideal world, the quick selling short haul destinations market would be fairly equal in size from MAN/LBA/LPL, with MAN excelling in the more niche markets and long haul as it is more central to the wider population. The reality is far from that, even with considering all the quirks of the aviation industry (e.g duplicating base costs).


Interesting post.

Absolutely no issue with competition and I'm sure Jet2 negotiated a good rate, I look at the facts based purely from the perspective of my own local airport and their performance. Its clear in my view that they have no intention of expanding the aprons in the short term, they are trying to utilise as many slots off peak as possible hence my comment referencing peaks and troughs but that has to fit the airlines schedules not Manchester's.

Looking at this from another angle, if Manchester had the apron space to overnight 4 additional units would JET2 have even considered Liverpool based on catchment, the answer is simply no. Manchester Airports catchment area quite clearly overlaps. According to SkyVector the distance between both airports is 20.7 miles, unless you live in the City Centre or towards Southport, Manchester Airport is as easy to get to as Liverpool. In terms of airport location yes its a factor but I suspect most families look at price first regardless of convenience. If the airport is an extra hour away but as a family of four you save say £100 each i suspect a family would take the extra commute.

The problem as i see it is that Manchester is now limited to an absolute figure in terms of stand availability , lets say 120 stands max, but over the last few years there has always been a significant number out of action leading to restrictions on capacity and of course growth, my point is that this should have been factored in allowing enough room for airlines to grow and accommodate any restrictions caused by the terminal work in progress.

One would struggle to see what the plan is, as the work in progress appears to be never ending. Even when the next pier is built and T2 is finished they are going to have to rely on the stands surrounding T1 and T3 for remote parking, it will be fantastic to extend T2 again and indeed build a large bussing apron over there, but that is another 5 years worth of disruption and is years away, how do you demolish those buildings whilst retaining the parking space in the short term ? If the maximum number of available stands is say 90 it will STILL be 90 5+ years hence and possibly longer. The forecast capacity for the terminal on completion 2025 was 35million pax a year, where did that come from, did the modelling take into account cause and effect ?

Forecasts for this year are 24m, I'm struggling to see how MAG get anywhere near the 35m figure unless every slot is utilised say 18 hours a day. 0600 -2400 from here on in.

Post pandemic every airport and indeed airline is seeing record growth, most are back to 2019 levels and higher, but at Manchester that appears to be being choked off by lack of operational capabilities which I feel should have been factored in.

If Liverpool benefits so be it, I say bloody good good luck to them, but I'm sceptical its down to Liverpool's performance and more to do with restrictions at Manchester, at this rate Liverpool will be laughing all the way to the bank for years as they cream off more and more displaced aircraft.

[WHBM]

So you think that for an 06.10 departure (as here) everyone should arrive at the airport by 03.10 ?

That is indeed the advice the airport gives.

I received exactly the same "advice" from our corporate travel agent, that for a flight at 07.00 London City to Dublin, being 'international', I 'must' check in 3 hours beforehand.

I queried this 04.00 time with them. 'Oh yes'. I then asked why they said so when the terminal building is not even unlocked until 05.30. No answer.

And I'm sure similar at Manchester, where the staff to process this early departure will not even be on shift yet at such a time.

The boarding gate will close promptly 30 minutes before the scheduled departure time.

This goes well with carriers like Ryanair who have 25 minute turnrounds, so when the gate is apparently closed the inbound aircraft is not even due on stand yet ...

[eye2eye5]

But surely stand space is limited at any airport. MAN is rather hemmed in by motorways and housing estates, with a rather hostile Council on another border and the now disposed of Airport City on another.There are possibilities- build over the AVP, demolish the hangars - to build more remote stands and those options would not be too expensive. Part of your answer, however, may lie in the deployment of larger aircraft. Encourage EZY to base A321 rather than A319. Price out ATR and 145. The latter may be sacrilege to domestic connection supporters, but times have changed.

[spannersatcx]

demolish the hangars apart from putting a few hundred people out of work, where would the likes of Jet2 do the essential maintenance on their fleet?😲

[eye2eye5]

Maybe I phrased that badly. Demolish the unused hangars which THG intended to use for their proposed cargo airline.

[chaps1954]

I can see that hangar coming back into use in near future as there is business there. The only reason that Air Livery went is because MAN were a bit greedy.

[eye2eye5]

Which is the more important though? Additional stand space or a hangar which has had a rather chequered history - and hence sporadic income - over the years? I could use a similar argument with regards to the AVP and Concorde - but sometimes hard edged business must over ride feelings.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

But surely stand space is limited at any airport. MAN is rather hemmed in by motorways and housing estates, with a rather hostile Council on another border and the now disposed of Airport City on another.There are possibilities- build over the AVP, demolish the hangars - to build more remote stands and those options would not be too expensive. Part of your answer, however, may lie in the deployment of larger aircraft. Encourage EZY to base A321 rather than A319. Price out ATR and 145. The latter may be sacrilege to domestic connection supporters, but times have changed.
God no, most airports have way more space than they need because we have too many airports and a fragmented incoherent transport infrastructure. MAN and LGW have one thing in common in that at some times of the day, even in peak summer, they're ghost towns. LHR is unique in that it's just flat out stacked but even they have T4 and tumbleweed at times. MAN has an enormous based fleet that overnights and all leaves at the same time and then does the same on return. It's not beyond the wit of man for Ryanair and easyJet to operate more of their MAN operation from overseas bases, leaving TUI and Jet2 stuck in the "all aboard at the crack of dawn" model. Many of the stands needed for overnights are empty most of the rest of the day.
As for "pricing out propellers", that would show that they have no ambition to be any sort of hub with feed, which actually might make some commercial sense if just one more Spanish bound A320 is all they care about.
but sometimes hard edged business must over ride feelings.
Worth looking at how wrong the Beeching cuts to railway infrastructure were in the longer term and comparing the long term legacy of Concorde where Toulouse is a world leading industrial site and Filton is building some delightful housing..... Hard edged businesses only think Year on Year, national infrastructure needs a longer lens an obvious weakness of Modern Britain PLC.

[eye2eye5]

Indeed, but the main thrust of recent posts has been around the lack of stand space and consequent loss of business. I’m not sure what the cost would be to operators such as TUI, Jet 2 etc in running away bases and indeed what current EU/UK rules allow. Similarly, there can be an impact on the traditional 7 day holiday in using an away based aircraft but that may not be of significance. I tend not to agree on internal connections, I think that market has passed its peak although the current non Beeching driven rail shambles doesn’t help. Unfortunately I spent my latter working years in rather short term culture and that tends to colour my judgement!

[Rutan16]

I dont post much, but post 2478 gave me some food for thought. In particular the posters concern about what effect Jet2 putting a base in a nearby airport might do to Manchester and how management appears to be incompetent as a result.

I look at it a different way. Manchester historically has been so good at drumming up business that it punches well above its weight for the area it serves. So much so that it has a monopoly to many destinations from the North West/Yorkshire.

Manchester has become so successful that alot of people will put MAN into a search engine before checking their local airport. They book the flight and then drive past their local airport to reach MAN, despite a flight often being available from say LPL or LBA. I've lost count of the times I've asked someone why they didn't fly from LPL when they live much closer, and the response being "Oh I didn't know you could".

To help me illustrate my point, take TFS, Manchester's busiest route in 2022 (and one to be launched by Jet2 at LPL) and compare passenger traffic compared to LBA/LPL
MAN 814,495
LBA 191,476
LPL 71,690
Considering the population of all three metropolitan areas (forget political boundaries) are not vastly different, its clear to see how effective MAN management have been historically in securing business.
Further to this, with Liverpool in particular, the difference in journey times by car from most areas away from these cities is relatively small.

To consider the thoughts in your post, is this not a bit of long overdue rebalancing? For short haul/high demand destinations at least, which is exactly Jet2's core market.

Why should the locals of Leeds/Liverpool trek all the way to Manchester when their own city is certainly large enough and connected enough to sustain a more diverse choice of flights?

Why should airlines put all their eggs in one basket and not have a base at others to trade the two off to get better fees.

To me, the average consumer, I can only see it as a positive that there is more choice. I consider MAN to have enjoyed a near monopoly in the North for too long and a dose of competition is what's needed to benefit the wider public.

I would imagine in an ideal world, the quick selling short haul destinations market would be fairly equal in size from MAN/LBA/LPL, with MAN excelling in the more niche markets and long haul as it is more central to the wider population. The reality is far from that, even with considering all the quirks of the aviation industry (e.g duplicating base costs).

Long post to demonstrate a total lack of understanding on economic literacy, and the important aviation industry driving forces.

Manchester is in competition with Düsseldorf , Hamburg, Milan, Barcelona , Vienna, Scandinavian capitals (and i’ll add Edinburgh of late ) on the global stage to capture the secondary traffic potential and very limited opportunities beyond the golden triangle covering the primary european centres and associated alliance hubs.

For the last forty years Manchester has far from punched above its weight - Just the opposite in fact, attracting and delivering a significant global network and almost complete Pan- European network.

The most comparable is Ruhr/Westphalia - You know what has in common ? a major airport at Dusseldorf , a second primary freight airport and LCC terminal at Koln and a tertiary airport at Dortmund

Those three combined handled 40.5 million in 2019

Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool were pretty close at 39 million in 2019

Both regions also have similar population and societal mixes to boot.

Similar dynamics lead to similar outcomes a general economic principle and truism at work.

For the entire North of England this has been a massively positive economical driver and quite remarkable without a resident UK hub carrier at that !

Combined with the group cargo hub in East Midlands - MAG are a massively important business delivering growth and revenues for the City region ( share and stakeholders alike ) and indeed the wider UK economy.

I can categorically say were the ‘as you suggest’ the love were shared the range of services in the north would been a magnitude fewer !

An even weaker economy ensue and fewer people would be employed across the region in the supporting industries and more widely.

The aviation industry is one that thrives after a certain point of demand is reached and supply catches up with the bean-counters allocating the resources to deliver the lovely revenue streams.

Manchester reached that point twenty plus years ago and now continues to capture those global carrier precious and valuable reserves for secondary city services on merit - Kuwait, Gulf Air, Egypt, Ethiopian, Hainan, Cathay, and just about every EU carrier plus of course the ME3; one operating 3 daily on the 380 at that .

You think three airports competing would have that depth - not a chance ! I’d suggest the region would lose upward of 7 million passengers per year !
Evidence from the US where airports have been de-hubbed after mergers certainly imply this is a realistic scenario. Think St Louis, Charlotte, indeed even O’Hare all have suffered contractions that have damaged wider service levels .

The inevitable beneficiary for that lost capacity wouldn’t be Liverpool Leeds or even Birmingham but the usual four suspects round London - That’s great for the North isn't it - A LOUD AND RESOUNDING NO !!!

Indeed these comments chime with and are demonstrated with the Davies report and R3 debate . He tacitly stated regional long haul should be sacrificed !

Now has there been disappointments along the way? Sure collapses of two UK carriers none the least, impacts of alliances and resultant wider consolidation particularly on the North Atlantic ( and the massive over capacity of economy seats at Heathrow for much of the year leading to fare dumping on an industrial scale damaging regional competitiveness across the UK)

Suffice to say imho Liverpool and to a lesser extent Leeds growth must be be organic and the idea of divesting capacity from Manchester is far from beneficial (that’s no growth at all ) and when it’s been applied elsewhere for instance London in the eighties it failed on a huge scale and would again.

Airlines demand a magnitude at scale to support their investments and deliver a wide and extensive range of services .
That doesn’t happen by accident and is weakened when spread across differing yet geographically close airport infrastructure.

Go look at the US and their largely domestic mega hubs they aren’t in neighbouring cities 40 miles apart !
Caveat New York I suppose.

Finally I agree with our Scottish friend; the UK regions almost certainly have far to many airports relative to size and population density all chasing similar traffic and generally diluting the ability to have an effective counterweight to Heathrow as potential Hub style operation.

This was eloquently demonstrated back in the day by BA when rather than having a single hub deep in strength in the regions they were split and competed against themselves at Manchester and Birmingham- Flybe continued that tradition into bankruptcy .

So in summary the reality is the UK ( outside of the South East corner) can only support a few large airports delivering a globally competitive range of services and those are already in place at Birmingham , Manchester and Edinburgh with Bristol a mentionable fourth.

[laviation]

Air Transat to add a 3rd weekly frequency on MAN-YYZ during the winter season. Nice to see some growth on the Transatlantic, however slight it might be.

[MANFAN]

Interesting post.

Absolutely no issue with competition and I'm sure Jet2 negotiated a good rate, I look at the facts based purely from the perspective of my own local airport and their performance. Its clear in my view that they have no intention of expanding the aprons in the short term, they are trying to utilise as many slots off peak as possible hence my comment referencing peaks and troughs but that has to fit the airlines schedules not Manchester's.

Looking at this from another angle, if Manchester had the apron space to overnight 4 additional units would JET2 have even considered Liverpool based on catchment, the answer is simply no. Manchester Airports catchment area quite clearly overlaps. According to SkyVector the distance between both airports is 20.7 miles, unless you live in the City Centre or towards Southport, Manchester Airport is as easy to get to as Liverpool. In terms of airport location yes its a factor but I suspect most families look at price first regardless of convenience. If the airport is an extra hour away but as a family of four you save say £100 each i suspect a family would take the extra commute.

The problem as i see it is that Manchester is now limited to an absolute figure in terms of stand availability , lets say 120 stands max, but over the last few years there has always been a significant number out of action leading to restrictions on capacity and of course growth, my point is that this should have been factored in allowing enough room for airlines to grow and accommodate any restrictions caused by the terminal work in progress.

One would struggle to see what the plan is, as the work in progress appears to be never ending. Even when the next pier is built and T2 is finished they are going to have to rely on the stands surrounding T1 and T3 for remote parking, it will be fantastic to extend T2 again and indeed build a large bussing apron over there, but that is another 5 years worth of disruption and is years away, how do you demolish those buildings whilst retaining the parking space in the short term ? If the maximum number of available stands is say 90 it will STILL be 90 5+ years hence and possibly longer. The forecast capacity for the terminal on completion 2025 was 35million pax a year, where did that come from, did the modelling take into account cause and effect ?

Forecasts for this year are 24m, I'm struggling to see how MAG get anywhere near the 35m figure unless every slot is utilised say 18 hours a day. 0600 -2400 from here on in.

Post pandemic every airport and indeed airline is seeing record growth, most are back to 2019 levels and higher, but at Manchester that appears to be being choked off by lack of operational capabilities which I feel should have been factored in.

If Liverpool benefits so be it, I say bloody good good luck to them, but I'm sceptical its down to Liverpool's performance and more to do with restrictions at Manchester, at this rate Liverpool will be laughing all the way to the bank for years as they cream off more and more displaced aircraft.

Are you on crack!
You obviously don’t have a bloody clue on what it takes to organise a transformation programme at an airport whilst keeping it operational with as little delays as possible!

Jet2 we’re always going to Liverpool regardless of whether MAN increased stand / apron space or not.

MAN is currently the 3rd fastest growing airport in the UK and one of the most successful and fastest growing within Europe!

I really find your comments very negative and unfounded. You obviously have a personal problem with MAN!

[bobradamus]

The missives are real rn.. Gurllllllll

[OzzyOzBorn]

24 planning days to prove that management at MAN can still cope with a mega-event.

The UCL airlift. ISTANBUL - too far for competition at scale from road or rail. 20,000 ticketed fans. And how many more will travel anyway?

Will MAN cope? Or will they be palming off aircraft all across the north?

An opportunity for MAG to show they've still got what it takes. Or not???

[laviation]

24 planning days to prove that management at MAN can still cope with a mega-event.

The UCL airlift. ISTANBUL - too far for competition at scale from road or rail. 20,000 ticketed fans. And how many more will travel anyway?

Will MAN cope? Or will they be palming off aircraft all across the north?

An opportunity for MAG to show they've still got what it takes. Or not???

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1571x863/image_567effc332c43e8b3a090a32c40f7152e5680916.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1658x872/image_962548f1af0c0a8ba7a4727b09ea0f4d6c36165d.png
And that's only what was loaded before tonight...

[davidjohnson6]

What do the people of Manchester want from their airport ? Should it be a centre for O&D flights to Tenerife ? Or do they want a wider variety of airlines and destinations ?