Manchester-3

[Una Due Tfc]

The EI and EI UK fleets cannot be substituted for each other as they’re on different AOC and different national registrations.


They can for short term issues. When G-EILA needed a new FADEC a few months back, EI-DUZ subbed in. Reserve DUB based crews are called in at short notice, take the spare ship over to MAN, and off they go…..if all goes to plan at least.

The G and EI airframes/crews cannot operate for each other in a scheduled long term fashion, but can perform unplanned leases/rescue flights for one another if needed to cover tech issues etc.

[Rutan16]

EIUK passengers are routinely rerouted onto VS during times of disruption.

As for using EI mainline A/C, yes, they have used EI reg before, however, this is all planned in advanced and they must use mainline crews. I’m assuming when Una Due Tfc posted regarding the spare aircraft, that the implication is that you could just fly in the spare from DUB and operate by EIUK crews which is not the case.

You have literally said the same thing using a differing set of words, and syntax !

[Airfrance7]

Apologies if already posted. EK21 currently using B777. Any reason why A380 is not being used?

[Rutan16]

Apologies if already posted. EK21 currently using B777. Any reason why A380 is not being used?

Utilisation, frame availability and the range of onward connections on the first wave from Europe (mostly India).

There remain about 32 parked including 6 high density two class frames and one of these has now been deployed down at Birmingham . A6-EOQ ,R and X (all high density) are currently being worked on at Dubai for re-entry into service shortly.
The 77w also delivers an incidental increase in cargo capacity right now.

The 380 is scheduled return in September

[Navpi]

In the last 12 months Manchester has come ahead of London in surveys by National Geographic and Lonely Planet. Manchester is the only UK city to make both prestigious lists. Manchester also made top spot in Conde Nast Traveller and Time Out magazine for 2023. If one adds in US visitors to the surrounding regions we really should be doing much better but with no home based airline it is a struggle to fully exploit this popularity.

[SWBKCB]

In the last 12 months Manchester has come ahead of London in surveys by National Geographic and Lonely Planet. Manchester is the only UK city to make both prestigious lists. Manchester also made top spot in Conde Nast Traveller and Time Out magazine for 2023. If one adds in US visitors to the surrounding regions we really should be doing much better but with no home based airline it is a struggle to fully exploit this popularity.

Doesn't seem to be impacting on Edinburgh's transatlantic growth?

[pabely]

Got to agree, a local based airline has zero to do with this.
Reading these surveys a pull is a visit to soccer grounds, not as if soccer is a pull for majority of US visitors. City obviously have a Global airline as major sponsors and the other, well had Aeroflot!
I have US friends who did Europe earlier in year. They said Manchester could have been done in a day, Liverpool better yo see & do, Scotland they could have spent weeks, same as Dublin, London & Paris, months! Thus Manchester was only a tickbox! I must add, extended family from ages 13-46 so a few different things each wanted to see/experience.

[Navpi]

Got to agree, a local based airline has zero to do with this.
Reading these surveys a pull is a visit to soccer grounds, not as if soccer is a pull for majority of US visitors. City obviously have a Global airline as major sponsors and the other, well had Aeroflot!
I have US friends who did Europe earlier in year. They said Manchester could have been done in a day, Liverpool better yo see & do, Scotland they could have spent weeks, same as Dublin, London & Paris, months! Thus Manchester was only a tickbox! I must add, extended family from ages 13-46 so a few different things each wanted to see/experience.

Well i "think" i have understood the message.
I'll be sure to drop the editors of those titles an email and indicate that their readers are clearly incorrect.

[pabely]

I think you will find most US citizens will book via Intrepid, Booking, Airnub, Expedia etc.not through some paid publications, as nice as those Magazines are, I wouldn't say they are main stream influences on travel.

[Rutan16]

Got to agree, a local based airline has zero to do with this.
Reading these surveys a pull is a visit to soccer grounds, not as if soccer is a pull for majority of US visitors. City obviously have a Global airline as major sponsors and the other, well had Aeroflot!
I have US friends who did Europe earlier in year. They said Manchester could have been done in a day, Liverpool better yo see & do, Scotland they could have spent weeks, same as Dublin, London & Paris, months! Thus Manchester was only a tickbox! I must add, extended family from ages 13-46 so a few different things each wanted to see/experience.

Visit Scotland has done a fabulous job internationally in recent times marketing Edinburgh, The Highlands, Nessie, Golf, Shortbread, Whisky and Tartan (even through most have nothing to directly do with the first)

On the other hand Visit England demonstrably ignore most of the country that can’t be viewed from a 1 hour coach drive of Grosvenor Place. They are bloody hopeless

This is compounded even domestically by competition from Manchester , Liverpool , Chester and York .

There are as many interesting facts and points of history across those four cities as there are in Scotland, including one the worlds leading links Golf courses at St Annes, Castles and Cathedrals galore, scenery. the home of the Industrial Revolution , railways, music in both Manchester (Joy Division , Factory Records), Liverpool (Beatles, Cavern Club) and as reported not for the first time by Condé Naste Manchester scores highly on art culture nightlife and cuisine.

What the area lacks is a competent dedicated tourism agency that promotes the area internationally - A Visit North/Industrial Revolution as it were.

[pabely]

Exactly, Manchester needs a dedicated Visit Manchester team to raise the profile of the whole area just like many US cities have, relying on some publications does get your voice heard in the US mindset. The City & MAG need to get their act together more.

[SWBKCB]

music in both Manchester (Joy Division , Factory Records),

I think 10CC and Strawberry Studio's would be a greater attraction for most Americans :rolleyes:

[pabely]

I must add I had Dutch friends visit NW in Spring and used Manchester Airport for 7 day holiday. It was only a cheap vehicle for travels having Liverpool, Chester & Stratford Upon Avon being their prime bucket list items. They did spend one night in Manchester to do Old Trafford only! I did question why not more time in Manchester, not a big draw, even after visiting. Their words, not mine.

[HOVIS]

That's because Manchester is a dump. The city centre is filthy.

[pabely]

And I quote "Manchester itself isn’t a beautiful city. Seems a little grey city, in a already known grey land over the weather" they won't be going back!

[Navpi]

Visit Scotland has done a fabulous job internationally in recent times marketing Edinburgh, The Highlands, Nessie, Golf, Shortbread, Whisky and Tartan (even through most have nothing to directly do with the first)

On the other hand Visit England demonstrably ignore most of the country that can’t be viewed from a 1 hour coach drive of Grosvenor Place. They are bloody hopeless

This is compounded even domestically by competition from Manchester , Liverpool , Chester and York .

There are as many interesting facts and points of history across those four cities as there are in Scotland, including one the worlds leading links Golf courses at St Annes, Castles and Cathedrals galore, scenery. the home of the Industrial Revolution , railways, music in both Manchester (Joy Division , Factory Records), Liverpool (Beatles, Cavern Club) and as reported not for the first time by Condé Naste Manchester scores highly on art culture nightlife and cuisine.

What the area lacks is a competent dedicated tourism agency that promotes the area internationally - A Visit North/Industrial Revolution as it were.

Yes hence my remark about VisitBritain moving to Birmingham and not up here.

Given a few on here dislike Manchester maybe they could also move there.

[chaps1954]

HOVIS go back to sleep Manchester is a fantastic city and happens to be the 3rd city for US coming to UK

[pabely]

Perhaps you should blame the local government and agencies for not promoting a better case.
https://www.ukinbound.org/member-news/visitbritain-announces-new-birmingham-base/

[Rutan16]

I think 10CC and Strawberry Studio's would be a greater attraction for most Americans :rolleyes:

Na agree to differ Joy Division , New Order (lesser Warsaw) are exceptionally well know in the US

To others I was being frank that the area and dedicated tourism body (if there were one) must encompass the wider North not just the one city and as demonstrated by Visit Scotland !

Hovis you are mean , and viewing from blinkered local eyes ;)

Plenty ugly about the majority of the prime UK inbound tourist point and similarly for that of Europes biggest as well, want to explore Paris Brutalist suburbs such as Cité de la Maladrerie in Aurbervilliers or across much of the east of the city -I have from an educational point of view but probably not after dark

[Rutan16]

Perhaps you should blame the local government and agencies for not promoting a better case.
https://www.ukinbound.org/member-news/visitbritain-announces-new-birmingham-base/

Won off the back of the 2022 Commonwealth Games steering committee

[OzzyOzBorn]

Manchester appeals largely to a younger set who seek nightlife, music and culture. The Co-Op Live Arena opens soon, adding to major concert venues including the AO Arena and the football stadia. Therme Resort is also coming to Manchester. The Gay Village and the extensive seasonal Christmas Markets also draw in the crowds. There are various festivals celebrated throughout the year.

The city does offer world class visitor attractions for those who appreciate architecture and industrial history. However, with the historic Town Hall behind hoardings and scaffolding for a huge refurb, this is not the best time to visit. Other gems such as John Ryland's Library and the world's first passenger railway station (Liverpool Road) at the MSI enjoy virtually nil international awareness. There are several top class museums covering themes such as social history, science and industry and even Egyptology (Manchester Museum). Salford Quays is unknown to most from overseas. Underground Manchester is amazing - and largely unknown even to residents. The Soldiers' Gate at Victoria Station is poignant ... if anyone tells you what it is! Manchester is also great for those who love shopping ... lots do. And football - that is the one element which does enjoy international recognition. City and United both offer impressive stadium tours. And there is the National Football Museum.

I strongly suspect that those who "did" Manchester in a day omitted most of the above. Not their fault ... the awareness and promotion simply isn't there. But that doesn't make Manchester a bad place to visit ... simply an under-appreciated one. And the city is a great base for visiting the Peak District, the Lakes, Chester, Merseyside and North Wales, the Fylde Coast and Yorkshire - all good for day-trips.

[chaps1954]

Well said Ozzy and to add to that many great food venues and for the people who travel a little out of city what fantastic areas like Cheshire,the likes of Todmorden etc in east Lancashire and into west Yorkshire and then Buxton to the south east with Derbyshire hills that to me adds up to a weeks holiday

[Navpi]

Perhaps you should blame the local government and agencies for not promoting a better case.
https://www.ukinbound.org/member-news/visitbritain-announces-new-birmingham-base/

Woah....just hang on one minute.

There is zero evidence that Manchester, Liverpool, Chester, York (i would support a bid from any of these), all of which are sandwiched between the best that the North has to offer in terms of Lakes, Peaks, Dales, Medieval Castles , plus retail, sport, music, nightlife etc, etc were ever allowed to compete in any bidding process.

Every UK city should have been allowed to bid based on fair means, following laid down criteria relating to their tourism offering or that in an adjoining region where they are the gateway City.

That is absolutely not what has happened here even though it is being spun that Birmingham won on some given criteria. Where is the evidence ?

The media seem to be basing the move on holding a successful Commonwealth Games ? Well its a bit late to the party on that one as Manchester held an equally successful event 20 years ago. Does that not count ? If it does i might suggest we have a more compelling case do we not ?

To win you have to have a competitive bidding process.

There has been no such competition.
It was handed to Birmingham on a plate.

This has been a smoke and mirrors decision based on the opportunity for civil servants who currently work in London to remain there but commute and work from home. Now i wonder who will be paying those daily train fares ?

As has also been pointed out Manchester is thee number 3 inward tourism destination after London and Edinburgh. Some here clearly resent that evidence but that is FACT not a fictional opinion piece.

As Rutan has quite rightly pointed out VisitBritain cannot see further than the London Eye.

Anyone with half a brain would say its obvious that it should have been located in one of thee tourist hotspots ideally near to a major intercontinental gateway airport . One that ideally provides a link to the markets that you now intend to promote IF that is the iintention, one assumes that is the remit as this move has been prompted by The Department For Levelling Up. Whether they have been outmanouvered by their slippery colleagues at VisitBritain or are complicit will become clear when Manchester journalists get a response to a Freedom Of Information Request.

[SWBKCB]

Remember, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Have you got evidence for any of your assertions?

[Navpi]

Remember, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Have you got evidence for any of your assertions?
I have.

[BHX5DME]

As Rutan has quite rightly pointed out VisitBritain cannot see further than the London Eye.

They obviously can as they have chosen Birmingham !

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I have.
Keen to hear more bagso!

[nwoody2001]

Woah....just hang on one minute.

There is zero evidence that Manchester, Liverpool, Chester, York (i would support a bid from any of these), all of which are sandwiched between the best that the North has to offer in terms of Lakes, Peaks, Dales, Medieval Castles , plus retail, sport, music, nightlife etc, etc were ever allowed to compete in any bidding process.

Every UK city should have been allowed to bid based on fair means, following laid down criteria relating to their tourism offering or that in an adjoining region where they are the gateway City.

That is absolutely not what has happened here even though it is being spun that Birmingham won on some given criteria. Where is the evidence ?

The media seem to be basing the move on holding a successful Commonwealth Games ? Well its a bit late to the party on that one as Manchester held an equally successful event 20 years ago. Does that not count ? If it does i might suggest we have a more compelling case do we not ?

To win you have to have a competitive bidding process.

There has been no such competition.
It was handed to Birmingham on a plate.

This has been a smoke and mirrors decision based on the opportunity for civil servants who currently work in London to remain there but commute and work from home. Now i wonder who will be paying those daily train fares ?

As has also been pointed out Manchester is thee number 3 inward tourism destination after London and Edinburgh. Some here clearly resent that evidence but that is FACT not a fictional opinion piece.

As Rutan has quite rightly pointed out VisitBritain cannot see further than the London Eye.

Anyone with half a brain would say its obvious that it should have been located in one of thee tourist hotspots ideally near to a major intercontinental gateway airport . One that ideally provides a link to the markets that you now intend to promote IF that is the intention, one assumes that is the remit as this move has been prompted by The Department For Levelling Up. Whether they have been outmanouvered by their slippery colleagues at VisitBritain or are complicit will become clear when Manchester journalists get a response to a Freedom Of Information Request.

If Manchester can lay claim to the Lakes, Peaks and Dales (some of which are between 150-175km away from Manc), then Birmingham can also lay claim to 80% of Warwick, Stratford Upon Avon, Oxford, Cambridge, Bath, Bristol ...and indeed London!

I'm a proud Brummie who lives in Salford, I'm just happy our regional cities are finally starting to get the investment that have long deserved. This whole "we were robbed, its not fair" narrative is having a whole lot of trump "we won the election and can prove it" without any of the proof kinda vibes. We all win some, we all lose some, as is life!

[HOVIS]

HOVIS go back to sleep Manchester is a fantastic city and happens to be the 3rd city for US coming to UK
It's still a sh*£hole! Litter everywhere, drug addicts and beggers on every corner.

[Rutan16]

As Rutan has quite rightly pointed out VisitBritain cannot see further than the London Eye.

They obviously can as they have chosen Birmingham !

The question is not particularly where the office is , Its what they do in the way of promotion . Frankly I don’t much care about the office being in Birmingham i am not that parochial.

Again i have evidenced a requirement for a dedicated agency for the North and i would do the same for Shakespeare land as well in the international markets.

I recognise local domestic tourism can have a marginal competitive dynamic, however on the global scale it needs more cooperation.

[Rutan16]

BHX5NME

I'm a proud Brummie who lives in Salford, I'm just happy our regional cities are finally starting to get the investment that have long deserved. This whole "we were robbed, its not fair" narrative is having a whole lot of trump "we won the election and can prove it" without any of the proof kinda vibes. We all win some, we all lose some, as is life!

Please expand - levelling funding is a sham significant amounts have been delivered to areas in the south east including Tunbridge Wells and certain Tory council areas

A major development for the north west rail development HS2 and the extra Piccadilly through platforms pushed into the very deep grass.

Funding to a significant science based university reduced by 17% .

But yeah all is well :(

[MANFAN]

Some of the discussions on this thread should sit in another forum on another website, however, I will add my thoughts into the mix regarding Manchester and British cities in general.

I am originally from the UK, I live in France now due to work commitments, but visited the UK (and Manchester and Chester more specifically) on a business trip in April with a German colleague, who was quick to comment on how old the infrastructure in T1 looked! I did explain that this terminal would be closing in 2 years time, so there's no justification to majorly spend on improvements now and that T2 will be fully operationally by 2025, to replace the current T1.

As for the city, I ensured we took a taxi into the centre instead of taking the train, I didn't even consider the train as an option, as we would of had to terminate the train at Piccadilly and have to see the absolute carnage that is Piccadilly Gardens as well as the sights and sounds of homelessness and the general state of that area!
Overall, he was pleased with what he saw in both cities, the weather was a bit of an issue, as we couldn't be outdoors as much as we had planned for. Nothing of course we can control, but it does prevent a lot of outdoor activities happening, especially in the summer.

But we both couldn't help but think, that the major British cities (excluding London), compared to many European regional cities, either smaller or of the same size as Manchester, just don't have the same "look and feel" as those in our neighbouring countries.
For example, I have lived and worked in Bremen and Hamburg in Germany. Visited Munich many times over the years. Last year I visited Gdansk and Krakow in Poland and Malaga in Spain.
For me, Hamburg was one of the most beautiful and cleanest cities I have ever lived in and visited. Sitting by the Alster lake (anytime of the year), with a lovely German beer, watching the many boat trips on the lake, plenty of outdoor seating areas with large parasols, spotlessly clean and tidy, great customer service from the well educated staff, who also knew a lot of history when it came to the city and surrounding areas. A relaxed and comfortable feeling with both friendly locals and tourists alike, behaving in an impeccable manner, as you would expect in a public area.
No homeless person or drug dealer or drunk trying to get some change off you. No rubbish or grime, loose slabs on pavements.

Don't get me wrong, Hamburg like anywhere in the world is not perfect! But what I've just described (and in my honest opinion), I don't see that quality in UK regional cities.
The quality of life for a lot of people in the UK is not as good as is it should be, we know that! Certainly by western standards in this day and age!
The company I work for have less employees transferring to the UK than vice versa or from Germany to France for example, mainly due to reasons such as:
* The state of the NHS/
* A less generous social system for those who work, but then need time off (maternity, paternity, sickness). Or for some, lose their job through redundancy. Less holiday entitlement / bank holidays than most other EU countries.
* Weather I have heard also as a reason too, so many outdoor family events and activities are done in the area of France I live in and we always say to our French colleagues and friends "we couldn't do this to an extent in the UK, purely because of the unreliable weather"!

[SWBKCB]

Weather I have heard also as a reason too, so many outdoor family events and activities are done in the area of France I live in and we always say to our French colleagues and friends "we couldn't do this to an extent in the UK, purely because of the unreliable weather"!

April? You should ahve been here in July...

[MANFAN]

April? You should ahve been here in July...

Or do you mean June? When there was a heatwave?
July has been like autumn in the UK!

[chaps1954]

You obviously don`t go to the same areas as me then because I stay away from Piccadilly garden and go where it is nice

[Rutan16]

Some of the discussions on this thread should sit in another forum on another website, however, I will add my thoughts into the mix regarding Manchester and British cities in general.

I am originally from the UK, I live in France now due to work commitments, but visited the UK (and Manchester and Chester more specifically) on a business trip in April with a German colleague, who was quick to comment on how old the infrastructure in T1 looked! I did explain that this terminal would be closing in 2 years time, so there's no justification to majorly spend on improvements now and that T2 will be fully operationally by 2025, to replace the current T1.

As for the city, I ensured we took a taxi into the centre instead of taking the train, I didn't even consider the train as an option, as we would of had to terminate the train at Piccadilly and have to see the absolute carnage that is Piccadilly Gardens as well as the sights and sounds of homelessness and the general state of that area!
Overall, he was pleased with what he saw in both cities, the weather was a bit of an issue, as we couldn't be outdoors as much as we had planned for. Nothing of course we can control, but it does prevent a lot of outdoor activities happening, especially in the summer.

But we both couldn't help but think, that the major British cities (excluding London), compared to many European regional cities, either smaller or of the same size as Manchester, just don't have the same "look and feel" as those in our neighbouring countries.
For example, I have lived and worked in Bremen and Hamburg in Germany. Visited Munich many times over the years. Last year I visited Gdansk and Krakow in Poland and Malaga in Spain.
For me, Hamburg was one of the most beautiful and cleanest cities I have ever lived in and visited. Sitting by the Alster lake (anytime of the year), with a lovely German beer, watching the many boat trips on the lake, plenty of outdoor seating areas with large parasols, spotlessly clean and tidy, great customer service from the well educated staff, who also knew a lot of history when it came to the city and surrounding areas. A relaxed and comfortable feeling with both friendly locals and tourists alike, behaving in an impeccable manner, as you would expect in a public area.
No homeless person or drug dealer or drunk trying to get some change off you. No rubbish or grime, loose slabs on pavements.

Don't get me wrong, Hamburg like anywhere in the world is not perfect! But what I've just described (and in my honest opinion), I don't see that quality in UK regional cities.
The quality of life for a lot of people in the UK is not as good as is it should be, we know that! Certainly by western standards in this day and age!
The company I work for have less employees transferring to the UK than vice versa or from Germany to France for example, mainly due to reasons such as:
* The state of the NHS/
* A less generous social system for those who work, but then need time off (maternity, paternity, sickness). Or for some, lose their job through redundancy. Less holiday entitlement / bank holidays than most other EU countries.
* Weather I have heard also as a reason too, so many outdoor family events and activities are done in the area of France I live in and we always say to our French colleagues and friends "we couldn't do this to an extent in the UK, purely because of the unreliable weather"!

Cant disagree with you

Je ne peux pas être en désaccord avec vos points de vue. On semblons avoir des chemins similaires dans la vie

Ma femme est allemande (de Hanovre) et travaille comme oncologue dans un hôpital londonien de premier plan. Ma fille vit à Saint Herblain.

A decade and half of managed decline leading to the biggest self harm event since the US Great Depression has UKPLC on life support

[Mr Mac]

Manfan
A very accurate portrayal unfortunately.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[DomyDom]

Manfan
A very accurate portrayal unfortunately.

Cheers
Mr Mac
I agree completely.

Back to MAN specifically, my experience of travelling through the airport several times over the last 3 months is that passing through security is now very good but the offering from the airside hospitality sector is poor. If you would like a pre-flight coffee and sandwhich it always appears to involvement of an inordinate amount of queing and even then you are unlikely to find a (clean) table. This is where improvement should focus I think.

[Asturias56]

Britain has always been a scruffy place - the amount of littering everywhere is a disgrace

As for public drink issues again these go back centuries.

There was a short period in late Victorian times when civic pride meant some parts of some cities reached Continental standards but that didn't last long

[MANFAN]

I agree completely.

Back to MAN specifically, my experience of travelling through the airport several times over the last 3 months is that passing through security is now very good but the offering from the airside hospitality sector is poor. If you would like a pre-flight coffee and sandwhich it always appears to involvement of an inordinate amount of queing and even then you are unlikely to find a (clean) table. This is where improvement should focus I think.

I agree! Cleanliness standards can still be improved!
As for the queues, hopefully when T2 is complete with more F&B options, this should improve.
By then T1 will be closed and focus can be made on improvements within T3.

[MANFAN]

Why is the MEN continually releasing the status of every delayed and cancelled flight?!
Are they that bored?!
I have a good mind to complain…not that I expect it to stop though!

I hope the airport’s communications and press teams are ensuring they speak to them!
This is pure scaremongering and they shouldn’t be allowed to post this.
It’s well known most delays over the summer are caused by ATC delays or strikes across Europe.
Passengers can find out the status of their flight through many other more reliable means.

[Rutan16]

Why is the MEN continually releasing the status of every delayed and cancelled flight?!
Are they that bored?!
I have a good mind to complain…not that I expect it to stop though!

I hope the airport’s communications and press teams are ensuring they speak to them!
This is pure scaremongering and they shouldn’t be allowed to post this.
It’s well known most delays over the summer are caused by ATC delays or strikes across Europe.
Passengers can find out the status of their flight through many other more reliable means.

Primarily Flow control within the Athens FIR with knock on effects. Just about all airports north of Orly, and West of Frankfurt are experiencing delays of 20 -35 minutes right now . And those that have significant traffic into the Greek Isles are amplified. Heathrow is an exception as it has relatively few Greek flights in particular.

In the UK it’s Edinburgh, Manchester , Birmingham and Gatwick carrying the burden as the points of departure to those very destinations, with Düsseldorf, Rotterdam on the continent .

There is Guy in another place that constantly comments about delays at Manchester without any explanation, whilst Liverpool is also experiencing delays of around 20 minutes as well.

The inference from that Guy and the MEN story is that its a problem of Manchester Airports making -of course it isn’t.

Through FR24 is pretty much is always the centre of the story these days .

A simple web site that has a substantial amount of data (without analysis) - BTW certain airports - LPL- Faster Easier Friendlier is one that doesn’t appear report their statistics- Wonder why ?

[SWBKCB]

They are just filling space - don't get too excited. And the inference that the MEN 'story' is blaming MAN is your interpretation - what it does say is:

The majority of flights from Manchester Airport take off on time however sometimes departure times can be delayed - or even cancelled - for a number of reasons. Your flight’s departure time could change, even at the last minute, so you need to keep up to date.

Don't think today's cancelled flight is going to impact too many peopleAs of 11am, the following flights from Manchester Airport have been cancelled:


Arcus Air flight to Paris - was due to depart at 1.40pm

[pwalhx]

Why is the MEN continually releasing the status of every delayed and cancelled flight?!
Are they that bored?!
I have a good mind to complain…not that I expect it to stop though!

I hope the airport’s communications and press teams are ensuring they speak to them!
This is pure scaremongering and they shouldn’t be allowed to post this.
It’s well known most delays over the summer are caused by ATC delays or strikes across Europe.
Passengers can find out the status of their flight through many other more reliable means.

Because they pull a lot of thei news from social media.

[Rutan16]

Because they pull a lot of thei news from social media.

true it’s long gone that it was a serious journal paid for and delivered to a majority of homes across the city by youngsters on bikes each evening for extra pocket money

[Asturias56]

"This is pure scaremongering and they shouldn’t be allowed to post this."

You mean its true but very embarrassing and inconvenient?

[Navpi]

true it’s long gone that it was a serious journal paid for and delivered to a majority of homes across the city by youngsters on bikes each evening for extra pocket money

And its syndicated thru Trinity Mirror.

You see gormless articles about say local food or dialect and the same articles appears in the Liverpool Echo, Birmingham Mail, Northumberland Gazette etc etc.

I always call out some of the Man Airport reporting but seldon get a reply as i suspect a significant over reach comes from TM execs in London.

[Asturias56]

no - one or two locals on "work experience" or minimum wage so they can get their foot on the news ladder with something on their CV

Same across the whole UK - mainly exists to regurgitate press releases or stories fed to them by people with an agenda

[dave59]

I'm sure this is true but it doesn't help when Manchester, the North of England's main airport gives them such an open goal. If the facility were something to be proud of they would have nothing to report. MANFAN's contribution upthread about the difference between British cities and their continental counterparts applies equally to the airports that serve them.

[BHX5DME]

July 2023

Manchester – 2,996,690 up 14.8%

Stansted – 2,807,150 up 13.5%

East Midlands – 495,214 up 18.7%

Rolling 12m end 31.07.23

Stansted – 26,835,667

Manchester – 26,617,362

East Midlands – 3,600,428



Manchester Airports Group ‘s (MAG) focus on delivering maximum choice and value to passengers drove a strong performance in July, as figures show London Stansted became the first major UK airport to reach pre-pandemic passenger levels.

The airport saw 2.8m passengers pass through its terminal, which was equivalent to 102% of levels seen in July 2019. Last month was the busiest July the airport had ever seen, and the third busiest month in its history.

London Stansted serves more European destinations than any other airport in the UK, offering passengers the choice they look for when booking their summer breaks, business trips or to visit friends and family. It serves as important gateway for visitors to the capital.

This breadth of choice and value is seen across MAG - which also owns and operates Manchester and East Midlands Airports. MAG served 6.3m passengers across the month. Manchester Airport served 2.9m passengers, equivalent to 94% of pre-pandemic levels, and East Midlands Airport served 495,000 passengers, representing 87% of traffic seen in July 2019.

The rolling 12-month passenger total for the Group is now more than 57 million passengers – up 51% on last year.

All three of MAG’s airports have maintained their high levels of service as the summer season has continued. In July 100% of passengers at East Midlands Airport passed through security in 15 minutes or less, the figure was 97% at London Stansted and 96% at Manchester.

In the CAA’s annual Airport Accessibility Report published in July, all three of MAG’s airports received the highest possible ‘very good’ rating from the regulator. The official ratings saw Manchester and London Stansted improve their performance, while East Midlands Airport maintained its rating which saw it rated the Europe’s top-performing airport at The Ozion Accessibility Awards last year.

[Habana2118]

I notice Ryanair has gone self handling, when did this happen? Makes sense I guess as they soon to do well out of STN with BlueHandling

[The96er]

I notice Ryanair has gone self handling, when did this happen? Makes sense I guess as they soon to do well out of STN with BlueHandling

They haven't gone self handling, not yet anyway. What you're seeing is a sub brand called 'T25' of Swissport. with dedicated staff and equipment.

[AirLCY]

They haven't gone self handling, not yet anyway. What you're seeing is a sub brand called 'T25' of Swissport. with dedicated staff and equipment.

Same as STN, just a different brand name and supplier of staff

[AircraftOperations]

Do Ryanair still get some flights handled by another handler too (Stobart/Star?) at MAN?

[The96er]

Do Ryanair still get some flights handled by another handler too (Stobart/Star?) at MAN?

For a time, Stobat/Star (Now called Air tanker) were Ramping/Dispatching selected RYR flights as were Menzies at one point. Since the summer schedule started, it is all T25/Swissport.

[AircraftOperations]

For a time, Stobat/Star (Now called Air tanker) were Ramping/Dispatching selected RYR flights as were Menzies at one point. Since the summer schedule started, it is all T25/Swissport.

Thanks for the info. I've just looked it up and they now seem to be called Sky Tanking.

[The96er]

Yes, you're correct, it is Sky Tanking. Must have been thinking of something else.

[Habana2118]

Ah now I understand, I wonder if this is something Ryanair and Swissport May extend other big U.K. airports

[davidjohnson6]

I know that T1 is due to close, but MAN airport always seems to me like a higgledy-piggledy mess - a bit like a warren of tunnels, lifts and other closed-in passages. I'm comparing it against LGW, STN, EDI, as well as other airports of similiar size like VIE, CPH, ATH, DUS, etc.

Am I the only one to think it feels like a lot of pieces stuck together with glue and string ? Will the closure of T1 really improve this ?

[TheSpiddalKid]

I know that T1 is due to close, but MAN airport always seems to me like a higgledy-piggledy mess - a bit like a warren of tunnels, lifts and other closed-in passages. I'm comparing it against LGW, STN, EDI, as well as other airports of similiar size like VIE, CPH, ATH, DUS, etc.

Am I the only one to think it feels like a lot of pieces stuck together with glue and string ? Will the closure of T1 really improve this ?

It is the way it is, much like any large piece of infrastructure, because they are the consequence of decisions over a long period of time. The original shell of T1 is from the mid-1960s. This would have had a plan at the time and will probably have latent provision in the plans for future expansion. But there is no way those plans could look 50+ years into the future.

So what you get over time is the expansion within the original plans. You then get more piecemeal provision where they think it can be fitted in as it is often cheaper in the short-term until you run out of options or decide to bite the bullet on the more expensive longer-term plans.

You need to look at the building of T2 for when Manchester started to look to the now and the future. The original T2 had plans built into it to allow for the expansion you are currently seeing, with the ability to expand further using the footprint of T1.

[Mayfield62]

Recently flew into Manchester from Doha (only 4 in business) and parked at the far end of T2. Walking out of the air bridge to a soulless corridor lined with plasterboard and grey lino on the floor. Hardly an image of an international gateway. Then walked along soulless corridors and not one of the travelators were working making it a 30 minute to the off-site station.

Yesterday I flew in from Houston and exited the air bridge and there were no signs. A group of us turned right watched on by some MAG staff in suits who let us walk half way down the corridor before telling us we were going the wrong way.

What did make me chuckle was the big sign saying renovations being undertaken by LPL (Liverpool?) Construction Services in association with MAG.

[MANFAN]

Recently flew into Manchester from Doha (only 4 in business) and parked at the far end of T2. Walking out of the air bridge to a soulless corridor lined with plasterboard and grey lino on the floor. Hardly an image of an international gateway. Then walked along soulless corridors and not one of the travelators were working making it a 30 minute to the off-site station.

Yesterday I flew in from Houston and exited the air bridge and there were no signs. A group of us turned right watched on by some MAG staff in suits who let us walk half way down the corridor before telling us we were going the wrong way.

What did make me chuckle was the big sign saying renovations being undertaken by LPL (Liverpool?) Construction Services in association with MAG.

Ref your arrival on the Qatar flight, it sounds like stand A10 or A12. Yes, white walls and that grey lino! I don’t like it either, wall panels and tiled floor would have been much better and longer lasting!

For your arrival from Houston, I assume you arrived at a T2 legacy stand, when you exit the airbridge there should be signs stating that arrivals and toilets are to the left…although I haven’t arrived at these legacy gates since prior to their refurbishment…

Maybe some other users on this forum can provide further info…

[Mayfield62]

Yes, I did arrive at one of the Legacy stands yesterday.

[Mayfield62]

I addition, a ground staff member came onto the aircraft and asked the crew to advise passengers about a large pool of water on the air bridge caused by a recent downpour of rain.

[MANFAN]

Yes, I did arrive at one of the Legacy stands yesterday.

I’m very surprised there is no signage, as this whole area was only refurbished a few months ago!

[MANFAN]

I addition, a ground staff member came onto the aircraft and asked the crew to advise passengers about a large pool of water on the air bridge caused by a recent downpour of rain.

No surprise given the amount of rain this country has had recently and standing water that can accumulate on top of the airbridge’s!
These airbridge’s are now 30 years old, maybe they’ll be replaced as part of the overall TP.

[Rutan16]

Recently flew into Manchester from Doha (only 4 in business) and parked at the far end of T2. Walking out of the air bridge to a soulless corridor lined with plasterboard and grey lino on the floor. Hardly an image of an international gateway. Then walked along soulless corridors and not one of the travelators were working making it a 30 minute to the off-site station.

Yesterday I flew in from Houston and exited the air bridge and there were no signs. A group of us turned right watched on by some MAG staff in suits who let us walk half way down the corridor before telling us we were going the wrong way.

What did make me chuckle was the big sign saying renovations being undertaken by LPL (Liverpool?) Construction Services in association with MAG.

LPL Construction are based in Essex , they have extensive experience in airport infrastructure in the UK and beyond . They were one of my clients in a different life a few years ago.

[Navpi]

Out of interest this is what was promised re T2.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-expansion-plan-security-9370929#amp-readmore-target

The MEN is carrying it's usual "bank holiday throughput" story, interestingly there is a reference to more upgrades including T3 although this is dependent on raising money from shareholders.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-boss-says-huge-27590701?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#comments-wrapper

[MANFAN]

Out of interest this is what was promised re T2.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-expansion-plan-security-9370929#amp-readmore-target

The MEN is carrying it's usual "bank holiday throughput" story, interestingly there is a reference to more upgrades including T3 although this is dependent on raising money from shareholders.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-boss-says-huge-27590701?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#comments-wrapper

From a reliable source, it was always intended the focus on investment would be made in T3 once the TP is complete in 2025.
The new security area will come well before that, but I would like to see improvements to the departure lounge area to enable some less chaos if that’s possible.
The gate areas around 50/51 can become extremely crowded too, not sure what can be done here, maybe take the small WHSmiths away for a start?
The immigration area needs extending and more baggage carousels are needed too!
Oh and don’t forget that horrible blue carpet when you arrive into T3!

[Navpi]

I wonder how much those T3 improved will come to ?

[comet 4b623PW]

Luxair recommence MAN-LUX from 1st April 2024

[Mr Mac]

Recently flew into Manchester from Doha (only 4 in business) and parked at the far end of T2. Walking out of the air bridge to a soulless corridor lined with plasterboard and grey lino on the floor. Hardly an image of an international gateway. Then walked along soulless corridors and not one of the travelators were working making it a 30 minute to the off-site station.

Yesterday I flew in from Houston and exited the air bridge and there were no signs. A group of us turned right watched on by some MAG staff in suits who let us walk half way down the corridor before telling us we were going the wrong way.

What did make me chuckle was the big sign saying renovations being undertaken by LPL (Liverpool?) Construction Services in association with MAG.
Mayfield62
Yep done that walk and totally agree with you, a shed of a building with little to recommend it, and a poor international gateway in comparison with other similar size airports. As for your comments re signs on the legacy piers I agree as well as signage is poor or at least not obvious, and maybe when people are tired after a long flight from the likes of Singapore or indeed Houston you need more obvious signage. Also even the new bits of T2 are starting to fail now. As for the staff letting you go the wrong way, sort of says it all.

I still prefer T1 with the broken lifts and travellators as the EK lounge has a pretty good view and good to get your steps in to get to and from the A/C ;)

Cheers
Mr Mac

[DomyDom]

Luxair recommence MAN-LUX from 1st April 2024
Good to see this route re-starting and by a legacy airline as well. Luxemboug will be well worth a visit. 3 weekly on Mon/Wed/Fri with decent flight times and prices as well.

From memory this route was originally announced around the time of the start of the pandemic but never really got off the ground due to covid travel restrictions.

[Mr A Tis]

Disappointing offering by Air Canada for S24. Announced an "increase" to 6 weekly MAN-YYZ from June to September. (doesn't specify when in June or Sept or Type) Edinburgh goes daily March24 to Jan 25.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/air-canada-sets-course-for-summer-2024-with-expanded-services-to-popular-european-destinations-871980892.html

[SWBKCB]

Superior to what? :confused:

[BHX5DME]

Disappointing offering by Air Canada for S24. Announced an "increase" to 6 daily MAN-YYZ from June to September. (doesn't specify when in June or Sept or Type) Edinburgh goes daily March24 to Jan 25.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/air-canada-sets-course-for-summer-2024-with-expanded-services-to-popular-european-destinations-871980892.html
6 weekly not daily !

[JerseyAero]

It wouldn't take much to be superior to the current offering - an Omni B767 tends to do the flight (when its not tech!)

[Mr A Tis]

oops, yes corrected to 6 weekly (not 6 daily ! )

[AircraftOperations]

It wouldn't take much to be superior to the current offering - an Omni B767 tends to do the flight (when its not tech!)

B787 (own metal) is planned for the route.

[Navpi]

Disappointing offering by Air Canada for S24. Announced an "increase" to 6 weekly MAN-YYZ from June to September. (doesn't specify when in June or Sept or Type) Edinburgh goes daily March24 to Jan 25.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/air-canada-sets-course-for-summer-2024-with-expanded-services-to-popular-european-destinations-871980892.html

Agreed disappointing.

This simply creams off traffic in high season.

Should be year round daily given the size of Manchester on the international stage.

[Rutan16]

Agreed disappointing.

This simply creams off traffic in high season.

Should be year round daily given the size of Manchester on the international stage.

Air Canada has as far as I can remember never operated daily -year round, even when the services were combined with Glasgow . Winter always reduced to about three weekly.

Even in the days of BA schedule dominance and pooling of services with Air Canada the Toronto service frequencies in the winter would be no more than three per week , sometimes just once a week as stop off of a Heathrow Tristar flight prior to finally canning the connection completely.

Some years way back BA would terminate the flights both New York and Toronto in Prestwick in deep winter deploying a rather rare Viscount 701 as a feeder .

BA retained two of these dinosaurs at Prestwick for a very long time, their main function being to fly feeder flights onto Aberdeen and Belfast on a BA flight number ( as opposed the BE code)

The list of charter carriers over the years mainly summer is quite long

Off the top of my soleil burned head

Nationair
Ontario
British Midland
British Caledonian
Dan Air ( yes with a 707)
Club something or other
Worldways
Pacific Western
CP Air
Wardair
Thomas Cook
Air 2000/ Canada 3000
Royal
Zoom

Might have missed a few idk

Cant remember if KT ( British Airtours ) flew any on their own batt but may have subbed for BA

In the heady days
Wardair flew between Manchester and Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and even Winnipeg - the last three are shadow of those days on the long haul

Winnipeg has no long haul at all whilst Edmonton retains just KLM to Amsterdam a legacy from their long gone CP-Air partnership days.

Calgary has seen Air Canada long haul presence in decline for some years , I believe from the Northern winter timetable just Heathrow remains over the Atlantic - Pressure from Westjet taking its final toll imho.
Like Edmonton KLM retains a presence again as legacy of that long gone CP-Air partnership.

For much of the heady days of Wife’s and daughters traffic Air Canada weren’t in the market at all.

Historically Air Canada commitments within the northwest market place haven’t been at all spectacular.

Air Transat do provide an adequate Toronto connection for twelve months of the year through their commercial decision to end much/ most of the Central and Pacific seaboard operations from Europe is imho regrettable.

This carrier operates a dual hub with UK and English speaking services from Pearson , whilst Francophone operations remain at Trudeau ( or as I recall it Dorval) - not a fan of that Canadian dynasty :(

Another fact is many many Canadians tend to follow the birds to the Caribbean in the winter rather than to similar European climes ( in fewer numbers that do each year as family ties continue to dilute)

Not sure they will make much/any money in November in Edinburgh, cepting they may have a few corporate golfing customers.

The days of CP, WD, BA, and/or AC same day summer departures from the 80s are long gone never to return.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Don't forget Odyssey International! :-)

The VFR market from the UK to Canada has collapsed to a shadow of what it was in the 1970's-1980's heyday. Today, we must look more to demand being driven by Canada's substantial tourism appeal, though there is a ready market for that. Toronto is a mainstream English-speaking business destination too.

[Flightrider]

Missing from the above, FlyGlobespan and Crown Air, a DC8-52 operation in the early 90s which did two summers at Manchester and Gatwick before never being seen again. They changed to 06 departures mid way through the day one day and the DC8 came roaring up the hill in a cloud of black smoke and barely cleared the localiser on take-off.

And yes, the BA VC10 service for many years was JFK-YYZ-PIK-MAN daily even through most of the winter. It connected on to a VC10 service running into Jamaica and the Caribbean at JFK.

Airlines will go where they make money. AC might have different views on where to fly in the winter to use their aircraft to generate the best return. Unless you have spare aircraft and crews sitting about, Manchester is probably a less attractive bet than many others.

[SWBKCB]

Points of Call Canada where another one season wonder.

It's hard to believe that Wardair would have three or four 747/DC-10's on the ground at a time

[ATNotts]

Agreed disappointing.

This simply creams off traffic in high season.

Should be year round daily given the size of Manchester on the international stage.
The problem for England inbound tourism is that nowhere is big on the international stage apart from for London. Yes, if you're a footie follower then Manchestet has two of the biggest names, anc if you're of the right vintage a decent rock / pop music reputation. What ought to help Manchester is the location of Liverpool, witth a rather more prominent (historic) music scene, a fairly well known waterfront and a high profile football team (Everton?).

With their short summer operation AC are essentially just there to spoil the party, mores the pity, rather than looking to serve the Midlands and Northwest market year round.

[boredintheairport]

Agreed disappointing.

This simply creams off traffic in high season.

Should be year round daily given the size of Manchester on the international stage.

'creams off traffic in high season'. Yes, what is the problem? If an airline has a fixed number of assets it will choose the strategy that optimises their financial position which will mean making decisions. If this means that there are only fares worth going after in the summer (e.g. higher priced direct flights), then that is what they will do? The same reason there is quite a bit of seasonality to places like the Med. Both (bits of) Canada and Manchester are pretty bleak in the winter.

I'm not sure what size on the international stage means, nor how it is operationalised. The number I'm fairly sure Air Canada is looking for is likely number of seats to be sold at their target price and target yield. I'm not sure 'we feel important' is a hugely important metric for them.

Moreover, given Air Canada as an experience is only slightly better than swimming to Canada, I'm not sure why you would be desperate to have their service?

[Rutan16]

Missing from the above, FlyGlobespan and Crown Air, a DC8-52 operation in the early 90s which did two summers at Manchester and Gatwick before never being seen again. They changed to 06 departures mid way through the day one day and the DC8 came roaring up the hill in a cloud of black smoke and barely cleared the localiser on take-off.

And yes, the BA VC10 service for many years was JFK-YYZ-PIK-MAN daily even through most of the winter. It connected on to a VC10 service running into Jamaica and the Caribbean at JFK.

Airlines will go where they make money. AC might have different views on where to fly in the winter to use their aircraft to generate the best return. Unless you have spare aircraft and crews sitting about, Manchester is probably a less attractive bet than many others.

Don’t recall New York and Toronto regularly combined from Manchester ( through willing to accept it may have happened in the odd timetable cycle and that now have no recollection of )

Own memories were something like

BA53x something to JFK via Prestwick
BA46x something to Montreal and Toronto via Prestwick

A weekly service ran beyond JFK to the Caribbean and terminated in Georgetown in Guyana operated with a std VC10

BA later split the Canadian ops with a separate and lower frequency service direct to Montreal and brought in the 747 to Manchester at the same time.
Montreal was finally dropped completely.

For the most part the weekly scheduled dropped to a single near daily link to Prestwick alternating between JFK and Canada with a feed available on the non op days to the alternate ( Including the Prestwick Air Canada operated flights )

And chaps thanks I expected that I’d miss a few.

Birmingham however did have a short programme of via US to Toronto ops with the 757 for memory.

[Rutan16]

The problem for England inbound tourism is that nowhere is big on the international stage apart from for London. Yes, if you're a footie follower then Manchestet has two of the biggest names, anc if you're of the right vintage a decent rock / pop music reputation. What ought to help Manchester is the location of Liverpool, witth a rather more prominent (historic) music scene, a fairly well known waterfront and a high profile football team (Everton?).

With their short summer operation AC are essentially just there to spoil the party, mores the pity, rather than looking to serve the Midlands and Northwest market year round.

Football colour correct “ city” not so much
Music agree to differ - Joy Division, New Order, Oasis , “ bespectacled stair carpets”- look up the euphemism here, James, Smiths, The orange haired geezer ( lives in Milan) ,Happy Mondays ( thief’s and robbers admittedly), Stone Roses, Charletians, 808 State, Mock Turtles, The Fall, Electronic ( partly) Paris Angels Chemical Bros, The Verve, ( the entire Madchester scene), the Hacienda , Factory Records and for the classical buff Halle Orchestra .

Liverpool
Gerry and the Pacemakers, Frankie Vaughan, The Searchers and band the name I forget maybe insect related

Oh and never forget the magnificent Cilla.

More modern Sugababes and Atomic Kitten and that tragically dead early tranny Pete Burns

A walk down City one and the docks takes maybe a few hours at most .

Don't take this too seriously by the way.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

With their short summer operation AC are essentially just there to spoil the party, mores the pity, rather than looking to serve the Midlands and Northwest market year round.
Spoil what party? They offer summer peak knowing the seats will sell, if they could see strong performance beyond that, they'd offer it, the UK is a pretty core market and they no longer have the option to sell MAN via BMI over LHR. I was genuinely surprised that both Air Canada and Westjet offered B787 service to EDI this summer but it seems to be the function of a strong pull with Edinburgh as an inbound attraction, far enough away from London to stand on it's own. I suspect MAN may well be a A321N option when they arrive.

[Navpi]

Football colour correct “ city” not so much
Music agree to differ - Joy Division, New Order, Oasis , “ bespectacled stair carpets”- look up the euphemism here, James, Smiths, The orange haired geezer ( lives in Milan) ,Happy Mondays ( thief’s and robbers admittedly), Stone Roses, Charletians, 808 State, Mock Turtles, The Fall, Electronic ( partly) Paris Angels Chemical Bros, The Verve, ( the entire Madchester scene), the Hacienda , Factory Records and for the classical buff Halle Orchestra .

Liverpool
Gerry and the Pacemakers, Frankie Vaughan, The Searchers and band the name I forget maybe insect related

Oh and never forget the magnificent Cilla.

More modern Sugababes and Atomic Kitten and that tragically dead early tranny Pete Burns

A walk down City one and the docks takes maybe a few hours at most .

Don't take this too seriously by the way..
.

Thank you Alan Freeman....I 😁 (more modern sugarbabes?)

Agreed Manchester can be done in a day if you are nosey enough to alight on its doorstep, but there is bit more to it than the docks if you are from, by way of example the US woke generation, especially as it beginning to look more like Manhattan with all the bloody towers.

Might not chime with us crusty old gits but that generation are more interested in culture, than old relics from a bygone age, that said MAN is still a potential gateway to N Wales, Chester, Liverpool Yorkshire Dales, And of course the Lakes.

A quick look at a US tour itinerary for 2024 will include those places, but as was said , London is the be all and end all for Dwight Diddly Bom Bom and the rest of the silvertops, despite being a bit squalid beneath the veneer in the brochure.

Well done for the Oasis connection. Continuing on a US theme Noel Gallagher has given Manchester more publicity on his recent mega sold out US tour than VisitBritain ever could. Likewise Johnny Marr re The Smiths.

You only have to tap into American yoof culture thru eg TIMEOUT etc to see that a younger generation are more interested in visiting Manchester for reasons that might escape the majority here.

[Musket90]

Rutan - - I seem to remember the flights from Manchester via Prestwick to JFK was BA537 with VC10 and the Montreal/Toronto BA607 with a B707.

[Rutan16]

Rutan - - I seem to remember the flights from Manchester via Prestwick to JFK was BA537 with VC10 and the Montreal/Toronto BA607 with a B707.

Thanks I think sounds about right -thumbs up !

[GulfTraveller]

One of the airlines missed out is Laker which offered LGW-MAN-YYZ until Skytrain services started.

From memory MAN-PIK-JFK was BA537/8 including for routings when PIK was dropped.
MAN-PIK-YUL-YYZ was BA648/9. The inclusion of YUL was because of a Canadian government statute which made it mandatory. BA 607 sounds familiar but I cannot remember which routing it was.

[Rutan16]

One of the airlines missed out is Laker which offered LGW-MAN-YYZ until Skytrain services started.

From memory MAN-PIK-JFK was BA537/8 including for routings when PIK was dropped.
MAN-PIK-YUL-YYZ was BA648/9. The inclusion of YUL was because of a Canadian government statute which made it mandatory. BA 607 sounds familiar but I cannot remember which routing it was.

How could I ever forget Laker !

[Snoopy]

Figured I would ask this here as you probably all know the airport like the back of your hands....
I'm arriving on the late shuttle from LHR and have a booking at the Holiday Inn.
How long will it take to walk from T3 to the Holiday Inn, and is there some kind of covered walkway through T1 or do I walk outside?
As I arrive late, I don't want to be chasing my taiil...so I figured I would ask people in the know!
Thanks in advance.

[AircraftOperations]

Figured I would ask this here as you probably all know the airport like the back of your hands....
I'm arriving on the late shuttle from LHR and have a booking at the Holiday Inn.
How long will it take to walk from T3 to the Holiday Inn, and is there some kind of covered walkway through T1 or do I walk outside?
As I arrive late, I don't want to be chasing my taiil...so I figured I would ask people in the know!
Thanks in advance.

Its located adjacent to T2. You walk to T1 - mostly covered - go up onto the covered walkway past the Station and the Radisson to T2 and then out near the first MS car park. Probably 20-25 minutes on foot.

[Snoopy]

Its located adjacent to T2. You walk to T1 - mostly covered - go up onto the covered walkway past the Station and the Radisson to T2 and then out near the first MS car park. Probably 20-25 minutes on foot.

AircraftOperations Thank you! I'll make sure to wear my hiking boots!

[Mr Mac]

Snoopy
We did some consultancy work on your hotel. You may find breakfast interesting.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Snoopy]

Snoopy
We did some consultancy work on your hotel. You may find breakfast interesting.

Cheers
Mr Mac

MrMac Now I'm intrigued.... :)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Cant remember if KT ( British Airtours ) flew any on their own batt but may have subbed for BA
Yeah, mid 1980s for Poundstretchers. Air Canada arrived in 1985 coupled with PIK and latterly GLA. The one thing that pleasantly surprised me, was that given the old VFR market passed on and their kids have many more options, that EDI saw the return of both Air Canada and even WestJet, mirroring DUB on a smaller scale. Also remember AC has no STAR partner to feed their LHR flights from MAN which was partly why they left years ago, abandoning GLA/MAN to feed via LHR with bmi.

[Navpi]

Well here's a suprise......

https://news.sky.com/story/northern-hs2-line-set-to-be-scrabe-scrapped-with-costs-out-of-control-sky-news-understands-12968I

It's' actually very preditable BUT a double whammy.

Personally I was always 50/50 on HS2 anyway, was always dubiousregarding completion.

Personally I would have preferred investment was spent on a West /East corridor and better connectivity to Manchester Airport. Investment in transport infastructure in the north has been non existent for decade after decade from both parties of government. The Tories never invest as they see no political capital, Labour never invest because they see their vote guaranteed, it comes down to begging for crumbs from Whitehall who are ambivalent.

"Please sir can i have some more".

Personally I preferred better connections to North Wales, Cumbria, Yorkshire and the East Coast to Manchester and by defintion to the Airport. These have been decimated pre and post Covid with the shambolic state of our regional railways especially, Northern Railway.

There should be services to Manchester Airport from all the large cities across the North and the North Midlands given how the terminal is ideally nestled slap bang in the middle of the terminals.

Improvements in these areas have all been knocked off one by one, scrapped on the false premise that they were spending money on HS2.

"don't worry lads and lasses you are getting a shiny new train set as we will spend the money on that instead".

Some might say this decapitates The North as a whole.
Manchester Airport was due to get a brand new station so expect a lame pr memo to say they are disappointed rather than gloves off outrage.

Nobody holds anyone to account at any level, it's abysmal.

[ATNotts]

Some might say this decapitates The North as a whole.


Indeed, along with the East Midlands.

But never mind, Solihull will become a North London suburb, Warwickshire will become a 'Home County" and BHX can be rebranded 'London (Elmdon) Airport'.

Levelling up my arse!

[laviation]

Levelling up.... to Watford....:mad:

[BHX5DME]

Levelling up.... to Watford....:mad:
To Birmingham :-)

[SWBKCB]

Personally I preferred better connections to North Wales, Cumbria, Yorkshire and the East Coast to Manchester and by defintion to the Airport. These have been decimated pre and post Covid with the shambolic state of our regional railways especially, Northern.

There should be services to Manchester Airport from all the large cities across the North and the North Midlands given how the airport is ideally nestled slap bang in the middle of the terminals.

I accept that the inter-regional train services are crap, but what cities does MAN need links to?

[Navpi]

I do wonder how this will effect Birmingham airport although i accept the premise the whole line has now become totally fragmented and totally devalued to the point that it's hardly worth bothering.

Birmingham to Euston salvages something , but a terminus at Old Oak Common ? I despair.

They are effectively now wasting the money already spent !

Do the Birmingham parish think this will effect the airport which seems to growing it long gaul offering rapidly with a really on point route development team.

[Rutan16]

I accept that the inter-regional train services are crap, but what cities does MAN need links to?

I think Manchester heavy rail is somewhat constrained in the Southern corridor .There are really just three lines converging on Piccadilly with commuter, London and Birmingham intercity traffic and another through the Hope Valley plus container and bulk freight trains to boot.

The resultant current traffic flows terminating at the airport are very sub optimal inho

Imho the airport would be better serviced with dedicated a high frequency shuttle to East Didsbury Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria with paths to York (half hourly) Preston ( half hourly) and Liverpool via Chats Moss very twenty minutes .And an hourly Style to Wilmslow
I would actually remove the through Scottish services but scheduled cross platform connections at Preston where viable.

The Northwest corridor needs Full electrification from Stalybridge Huddersfield and Leeds to Church Fenton , York to Scarborough .
Ideally a link from the airport to Ashley and also the western Metro line round Wythenshawe.

The aim would be a more reliable and predictable service along the Style line

Not rail related however I am of the opinion that a frequent Airport, Warrington, Runcorn, Speke and Liverpool coach service needs to be restored soonest.

[Navpi]

I accept that the inter-regional train services are crap, but what cities does MAN need links to?

it doesn't its towns across N Wales, Cumbria, and the East Coast who have all been crying out for better connectivity not worse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/manchester-airport-link-risk-south-19855071.amp

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-65558316

They have only just saved N Wales services which were also threatened.

[chaps1954]

Well was waiting for a friend off local train and Nottingham to Manchester and Liverpool train arrived at Stockport as 6 car and was heaving at 19.30 last night so business is there

[Rutan16]

I do wonder how this will effect Birmingham airport although i accept the premise the whole line has now become totally fragmented and totally devalued to the point that it's hardly worth bothering.

Birmingham to Euston salvages something , but a terminus at Old Oak Common ? I despair.

They are effectively now wasting the money already spent !

Do the Birmingham parish think this will effect the airport which seems to growing it long gaul offering rapidly with a really on point route development team.

This is a last roll of the die from a zombie administration along with the so call roll back on certain climate policies earlier in the week.

Might have a majority in the house however they probably have little if any parliamentary time to delivery ANYTHING so it’s A matter of political grandstanding and vapour from Sunack.
Sunacks tenancy in No 10 and indeed within his own party is tenuous at best.

I do expect the next administration to be looking at all sorts of domestic issues and time frames within their first parliament # Target 2030 will slip anyway (always was going too but 2035 will be retained. The HS2 timetable and costing will be reevaluated sure . Euston will be completed . However north of Birmingham the timetable will need to be updated - Manchester must still be the goal imho however 2035 -2040 is a very long time into the future .

[Navpi]

This is a last roll of the die from a zombie administration along with the so call roll back on certain climate policies earlier in the week.

Might have a majority in the house however they probably have little if any parliamentary time to delivery ANYTHING so it’s A matter of political grandstanding and vapour from Sunack.
Sunacks tenancy in No 10 and indeed within his own party is tenuous at best.

I do expect the next administration to be looking at all sorts of domestic issues and time frames within their first parliament # Target 2030 will slip anyway (always was going too but 2035 will be retained. The HS2 timetable and costing will be reevaluated sure . Euston will be completed . However north of Birmingham the timetable will need to be updated - Manchester must still be the goal imho however 2035 -2040 is a very long time into the future .

Somehow i doubt it.
Now Boris has gone , Labour know they can now put a donkey up in the North, i honestly cannot see any incentive to commit. They too will hide behind costs.

Andy Burnham has said Labour WILL BUILD IT... given he despises Labour in London this may be more about a politics playbook to "try" and twist their arm.

https://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/labour-support-for-hs2-appears-to-weaken-as-tories-eye-further-cuts/5125237.article

I appreciate we are talking lots of politics here BUT its a political decison that affects The North and indeed Manchester Airport which is at its epi centre.

[ATNotts]

I do wonder how this will effect Birmingham airport although i accept the premise the whole line has now become totally fragmented and totally devalued to the point that it's hardly worth bothering.

Birmingham to Euston salvages something , but a terminus at Old Oak Common ? I despair.

They are effectively now wasting the money already spent !

Do the Birmingham parish think this will effect the airport which seems to growing it long gaul offering rapidly with a really on point route development team.
The advantage BHX has over MAN where rail connectivity is concerned is that Birmingham International sits on the WCML and has Cross Country and Avanti long distance services across much of central and northern England.

When I had cause to travel to and from International a few weeks ago I was amazed by how many air passengers were arriving at BHX by rail. I am not sure how close to BHX the new HS2 station is going to be but it'll only be much use to North Londoners using BHX as a departure airport rather than LHR. I can't really see many doing that!

[Rutan16]

The advantage BHX has over MAN where rail connectivity is concerned is that Birmingham International sits on the WCML and has Cross Country and Avanti long distance services across much of central and northern England.

When I had cause to travel to and from International a few weeks ago I was amazed by how many air passengers were arriving at BHX by rail. I am not sure how close to BHX the new HS2 station is going to be but it'll only be much use to North Londoners using BHX as a departure airport rather than LHR. I can't really see many doing that!

HS2 problem on the southern core in its current form imho is the lack one intermediate parkway station somewhere around Finmere area .This with a massive carpark connection to the East -west Varsity line and buses to Brackley, Banbury and Aylesbury would bring significant improvements and new markets back onto the rail network . As it is none stop Ealing - Birmingham it’s missing a beat .
I would then consider half hourly stop at this parkway and then none stop to final destination eventually Euston

Current designs incorporate a spur onto the Varsity line ( primarily for maintenance and diversion purposes) towards Bletchley through I don’t know if the line Finmere to Bletchley is provisioned for the wider captive HS2 gauge vehicle clearances.

A further problem is Curzon Street as a terminal station where does that connect to the wider Midlands network without the northern and ( already shelved eastern spurs)

Bit by bit the concept and reasoning has been systematically broken and each delay/shelving saves little in the now but adds massively down the line ( pun intended) .
With phase 1 contracts the contractors are already Adding to the cost delay and stage payment risk with each application. Politicians have no idea how contracting works in the main.

Sorry only tangentially related to aviation but of some relevance.

I will repeat to current administration is playing for time their legislative programmes are binned and they could call an election anytime within THIS parliamentary term .

[Asturias56]

" As it is none stop Ealing - Birmingham it’s missing a beat ."

That's the point - no-stop ...... Rail planners often moan that they introduce new trains & kit to speed things up and then intermediate stops howl until they 're connected - thus negating the advantages o the original idea.

IIRC the original W region Intercity 125 service was supposed to be London - Bristol and London Cardiff non-stop - but then they added Bath, Swindon, Reading.........

[A350Saltire]

Have FR yet to release their summer 23 flights from MAN. Was hoping Paphos would be back.

[Rutan16]

" As it is none stop Ealing - Birmingham it’s missing a beat ."

That's the point - no-stop ...... Rail planners often moan that they introduce new trains & kit to speed things up and then intermediate stops howl until they 're connected - thus negating the advantages o the original idea.

IIRC the original W region Intercity 125 service was supposed to be London - Bristol and London Cardiff non-stop - but then they added Bath, Swindon, Reading.........

The IC125 Great Western services replaced the pullman diesels with a half hourly throughout the day operation .

If we look at France and Japan in particular they set a number similar large parkway style interchanges with skip services in the case of SNCF at around 80 miles enroute and massively reduced Paris - Lyon block times

Now true later SNCF TGVs are now using using conventional rail to extend coverage and the traditional Corrail network is oft in a poorer state than much of the current UK network.

Some of the worst trains I use are the Transilien outer suburban île de France trains they are terrible dirty graffiti and often cancelled . Nought to do with this thread through

[Mr A Tis]

Not rail related however I am of the opinion that a frequent Airport, Warrington, Runcorn, Speke and Liverpool coach service needs to be restored soonest.


There is an hourly bus service from Warrington - Lymm-Altrincham-Airport, the X5
​​​​​​​

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

There is an hourly bus service from Warrington - Lymm-Altrincham-Airport, the X5

The problem with this services is that is an extension of the local Warrington to Altrincham service and has no real capacity for passenger luggage - and also is rather slow.
​​​​​​​

[Una Due Tfc]

EI’s July LF for the MAN base was 70% according to chatter on Irish discussion boards, 1 point up on July 2022, but one must remember that the A321 was replaced with an A333.

[The96er]

EI’s July LF for the MAN base was 70% according to chatter on Irish discussion boards, 1 point up on July 2022, but one must remember that the A321 was replaced with an A333.

The JFK route is also hauling significant volumes of cargo too.

[daz211]

There is an hourly bus service from Warrington - Lymm-Altrincham-Airport, the X5

Getting from Anglesey NW is almost impossible by public transport and the amount on night road closures are a joke.
​​​​​​​

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

EI’s July LF for the MAN base was 70% according to chatter on Irish discussion boards, 1 point up on July 2022, but one must remember that the A321 was replaced with an A333.
70% in July isn't great, the obvious conversation they'll be having is could one or both of those A330s be making more money with mainline out of Dublin? Is it a fares issue or a lack of advertising?

[The96er]

The load factor for Aug was a lot higher but has since dropped off quite a lot since the end of the summer holidays.
Marketing will always be a factor at play (Would the load factor be higher if the tails were red white and blue !? - almost certainly)

EI are unlikely to cut tail an run just yet, recruitment still seems to be active and cargo volumes I’m sure are contributing to the bottom line.

[Una Due Tfc]

Summer schedules appear locked in, the resumption of DUB-MSP and launch of DUB-DEN can be covered by slack in the existing A330 schedule in DUB.

If things don’t pick up next year, things might change you would imagine, especially as the XLRs begin arriving next winter.

[Navpi]

Must confess i do worry for EI. Despite these comments only a few months ago.....

"If customers can fly non-stop, they will want to fly non-stop... [There are] plenty of other places [in the US that Aer Lingus might serve]... I can see Manchester growing manyfold for us."


I see its being reported that THAI have also walked again.

Manchester was in the top twenty of airports in Europe serving the US pre TCX and Covid. I dread to think where we sit now.

Does anyone wonder how hard the route development team are trying ?

Have landing fees gone up for new entrants to pay for the terminal ?

There was much back slaping when construction of the latest pier was announced earlier this year. The great and the good at the launch were gushing with the oft repeated "global gateway" tripping off the pr output from all the attendees.

I hope this billion pound terminal isnt just going to service IT passengers to Spain and Turkey.

[Navpi]

https://mediacentre.magairports.com/mag-statement-on-hs2-and-northern-powerhouse-rail---3rd-october-2023/


Excellent stuff from MAG.

One caveat however !

"The North needs better connectivity to drive its economy forward."

Why does this comment apply to the debacle on HS2 but not the freight network which has literally been swept away under our previous CEO.

Does freight connectivity not count ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Most of it's carried in the belly of passenger aircraft, you need to stop seeing freight in isolation as main deck freighter lift. That's a minority of the cargo hauled by air, indeed Air Canada just dropped their B777F order as the uplift in new B787-10s means they don't need dedicated wide body lift. Let's not go round the hamster wheel again and again.....

[Navpi]

Most of it's carried in the belly of passenger aircraft, you need to stop seeing freight in isolation as main deck freighter lift. That's a minority of the cargo hauled by air, indeed Air Canada just dropped their B777F order as the uplift in new B787-10s means they don't need dedicated wide body lift. Let's not go round the hamster wheel again and again.....

Beg to differ you would be squealing like a proverbial pig if LHR freight throughput had been halved over a 5 year period.

Welcome to Manchester!

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Beg to differ you would be squealing like a proverbial pig if LHR freight throughput had been halved over a 5 year period.

Welcome to Manchester!
LHR doesn't have any main deck freight worth mentioning, it's mostly at STN, with MAG. LGW has exactly zero. That's because there's a lot of passenger wide body heavies that means dedicates cargo flights are not needed. You have some overflow into LHR on with EK, QR, CX, KE and SQ freighters but less than a handful for each. If you want freight to climb again, it's long haul passenger wide bodies you need. If it's down by 50% at MAN, did you identify what carriers that drove that fall? DELTA? United? American? The A321s they have on order may not be a solution though.

[Navpi]

LHR doesn't have any main deck freight worth mentioning, it's mostly at STN, with MAG. LGW has exactly zero. That's because there's a lot of passenger wide body heavies that means dedicates cargo flights are not needed. You have some overflow into LHR on with EK, QR, CX, KE and SQ freighters but less than a handful for each. If you want freight to climb again, it's long haul passenger wide bodies you need. If it's down by 50% at MAN, did you identify what carriers that drove that fall? DELTA? United? American? The A321s they have on order may not be a solution though.

Point taken but i was simply making the observation that if MAG are exercised by chopping HS2 as it is critical to quote "global connectivity" , they should be equally concerned that frieght is now down by 50% compared to 2019 levels.

Passengers have recovered apart from to the US. I can't believe that the lack of traffic westbound has accounted for all of that 50% fall.

There was a puff piece in the FT las week that may as well have been written by HAL around the need for the 3rd runway, a key point was the fact that LHR is thee largest port in Britain.
Clearly someone thinks freight is key in airport infastructure within the South East.

[easyflyer83]

Will this torture ever end?

[ATNotts]

There was a puff piece in the FT las week that may as well have been written by HAL around the need for the 3rd runway, a key point was the fact that LHR is thee largest port in Britain.
Clearly someone thinks freight is key in airport infastructure within the South East.

For heaven's sake!!

The 'largest port' statistic is based on value in 'pound notes' not volume or tonnage. That cargo is overwhelingly carried on passenger aircraft.

[SWBKCB]

Will this torture ever end?

Good work on that hamsterwheel, Skippy!

[bobradamus]

Ooooooo, are we back on one of the proscribed topics again?! Haha 😂

[Navpi]

"Children, children please learn to spell if you are going to comment".

I can just about stomach coherent discussion and analysis from Skippy and ATN, but as for our three poundland pundits hanging on to their shirt tails ?

Do try some original thinking. Thinking is so important !

[easyflyer83]

"Children, children please learn to spell if you are going to comment".

I can just about stomach coherent discussion and analysis from Skippy and ATN, but as for our three poundland pundits hanging on to their shirt tails ?

Do try some original thinking. Thinking is so important !

I like debate and analysis as much as the next person but let’s just debate something else. Even travelatorgate is more interesting than the whole pure freighter topic. Sorry if my view is ‘Poundland’ but I call it as I see it.

We all know your views on the subject and we know the arguments against from Skipness.

[bobradamus]

All views are valid, regardless of spelling. Cargo is a major conversational motivator here… I’ve forgotten the other two in the top three?

[Navpi]

The MAN routes Development team are supposed to be attending the routes conference Istanbul but they don't appear to be listed separately. Are they included under STN? Very strange as LHR, LGW, BHX, EDI and LPL are all shown as attending.

[ATNotts]

The MAN routes Development team are supposed to be attending the routes conference Istanbul but they don't appear to be listed separately. Are they included under STN? Very strange as LHR, LGW, BHX, EDI and LPL are all shown as attending.
Not checked, but perhaps they are under 'MAG', or as you suggest in with STN along with EMA. STN being a London airport might attract more attention than attending as MAN such is the London centric nature of the UK.

[OzzyOzBorn]

STN being a London airport might attract more attention than attending as MAN such is the London centric nature of the UK.

You'll catch afew with that!!! Smile

EDIT: Why has the system converted the emoji to the word "smile" ... very strange.

[BHX5DME]

Strange MAG are not in Istanbul for World Routes
BHX as always have a stand there.

[GeorgeNTravels]

The MAN routes Development team are supposed to be attending the routes conference Istanbul but they don't appear to be listed separately. Are they included under STN? Very strange as LHR, LGW, BHX, EDI and LPL are all shown as attending.

It's not uncommon for airports that are owned by a group to be listed as attending under the group name and not the airport.

For example AGS are listed as attending rather than Aberdeen, Glasgow and Southampton.

[SWBKCB]

But MAG aren't, just London Stansted.

[laviation]

I can't imagine they wouldn't be there. Maybe just hasn't been published to the website?

[ATNotts]

You'll catch afew with that!!! Smile

EDIT: Why has the system converted the emoji to the word "smile" ... very strange.
Very likely, but sad thing is that its true:ok:

(Got my emoji to work!).

[MANFOD]

But MAG aren't, just London Stansted.

MAG I could understand, although MAN & STN would have their own goals and contacts to pursue even if there is some overlap.
Hope theyr'e not thinking of changing the name to SAG.:=

[viscount702]

Isn't it true that the MAN route development team went during covid and STN now does both. God knows why.
It seems to me that MAN is run from STN and this may be to the detriment of MAN. Personally I would like to see MAG split up like BAA due to the anti competative nature of the setup.I think SAG is already here if not in name.

[UnderASouthernSky]

Isn't it true that the MAN route development team went during covid and STN now does both. God knows why.
It seems to me that MAN is run from STN and this may be to the detriment of MAN. Personally I would like to see MAG split up like BAA due to the anti competative nature of the setup.I think SAG is already here if not in name.

That's not true. And MAN is represented in IST (by MAN employees) from what I've seen so far in Turkiye.

[SWBKCB]

Always some spoilsport with pesky facts!

You might want to tell them that Routes Online don't list them on the their website as being present.

[UnderASouthernSky]

Always some spoilsport with pesky facts!

You might want to tell them that Routes Online don't list them on the their website as being present.

Can't see it mattering too much to them if it's not affecting the meetings they get agreed in advance with airlines through the booking system.

[SWBKCB]

Hopefully too busy to be bothered! :ok:

[MANFOD]

Can't see it mattering too much to them if it's not affecting the meetings they get agreed in advance with airlines through the booking system.

Yes, that was my understanding too of a slot booking system for appointments between airports and airlines, although I wasn't sure if that was done in advance. I expect Route Development teams also make use of informal chats outside the more formal proceedings. It may also be a useful forum and through networking to keep an eye on what the competition are doing..

[Navpi]

Please tell me that both airports have their own teams !

If we are now saying there is a combined presence i can't help thinking they would "do an EMA....."!

"Well yes, you can of course go to Manchester, but we can offer you this if you come here to STN.....".

I doubt this happens BTW.

At least i bloody well hope not.

[AircraftOperations]

Please tell me that both airports have their own teams !

If we are now saying there is a combined presence i can't help thinking they would "do an EMA....."!

"Well yes, you can of course go to Manchester, but we can offer you this if you come here to STN.....".

I doubt this happens BTW.

At least i bloody well hope not.

Keeping your eyes on LinkedIn would be a good place to start to get a feel for many airports' route development teams.

[Sotonsean]

Keeping your eyes on LinkedIn would be a good place to start to get a feel for many airports' route development teams.

So many on pprune seem to be totally unaware of LinkedIn. Most are totally unware of the site, especially when I have previously mentioned it.

So many on pprune simply rely on pprune for all of their information.

Also, relying on the company website is useless as they are hardly updated on a regular basis.

Not long ago I suggested to someone here on pprune to search for photos under Google images. Low and behold it was totally news to them as they wasn't aware of it. "Unbelievable isn't it 😳 "

[Navpi]

Many thanks, fully aware of LinkedIn and the fact WE HAD a dedicated Route Development Team based here in Manchester. Like MANFOD, the question was more about ensuring confirmation we have a dedicated team at Routes.
I'm sure supporters of Manchester want individual representation not possibly consolidation!
it seems odd not to be listed separately.

[Flightrider]

MAG has a dedicated route development team for Manchester Airport, based in MAN. A number of them are in World Routes in Istanbul this week.

Most airports which are part of a group are listed as part of the group or under one of the attending airports, which is a direct function of the increasingly rapacious charges that the event organisers expect airport participants to pay.

Does it matter? No. The majority of meetings taking place at Routes are requested by the airport attendees of the airlines. Very few - probably less than 10% - are where an airline wants to meet with an airport. So if you're part of ABC Airports and you're Airport B, you still request to see the airlines you have on your target list even if those might be different from those which your sister airports A and C wish to meet. It's pretty much irrelevant given the format of the event.

[MANFOD]

Many thanks, fully aware of LinkedIn and the fact WE HAD a dedicated Route Development Team based here in Manchester. Like MANFOD, the question was more about ensuring confirmation we have a dedicated team at Routes.
I'm sure supporters of Manchester want individual representation not possibly consolidation!
it seems odd not to be listed separately.

LinkedIn does indeed provide confirmation that MAN's dedicated team are in Istanbul. I was already confident that was the case from another source.
Flightrider provides a likely explanation as to why group airports are registered under 1 name: "Most airports which are part of a group are listed as part of the group or under one of the attending airports, which is a direct function of the increasingly rapacious charges that the event organisers expect airport participants to pay".

Why it was decided to do so under Stansted rather than MAG still seems slightly strange but the key fact is that MAN are there. Let's hope the meetings, relationships building, networking etc. prove fruitful.

[The96er]

Does anybody know what the steelwork being erected is for just to the left of stand 208 ?. I’ve not seen any plans for what it might be for and is not for the new pier as that is further along.

[ImPlaneCrazy]

It's the new Vertical Circulation Core (VCC).

[Suzeman]

Yes, that was my understanding too of a slot booking system for appointments between airports and airlines, although I wasn't sure if that was done in advance. I expect Route Development teams also make use of informal chats outside the more formal proceedings. It may also be a useful forum and through networking to keep an eye on what the competition are doing..

That's certainly how it used to work decades ago...:)

[Mr Mac]

Bumpy ride into Manchester on Baby Bus this afternoon from Munich , and bloody nightmare getting home due to basic maintenance on UK motorways ie clean the bloody drainage channels rather than let It spill all over the carriage way. Large G&T at home now 👍

Cheers
Mr Mac

[chaps1954]

Totally agree about drainage, there is a grid near us that I don`t think has been cleared for a couple years and as soon as it rains the water pours down the foot path
In general drains are rarely cleared and just aloud to block with leaves and silt

[Charlie98]

Anyone know why 23R was closed this afternoon?

[Dct_Mopas]

Anyone know why 23R was closed this afternoon?

It was due to “pavement failure” on 23R - reopening at 1600L apparently.

[dave59]

Extensive holding due to single runway in use. e.g. SIA51 holding for 35 minutes from 0855 due to the change at 0900 to using only 23R. Why not use the southern runway? The change to 0630-1100 only takes place on 29/10/23 according to TAS site. Is this some sort of planning requirement, intransigence or incompetence?

[UnderASouthernSky]

Extensive holding due to single runway in use. e.g. SIA51 holding for 35 minutes from 0855 due to the change at 0900 to using only 23R. Why not use the southern runway? The change to 0630-1100 only takes place on 29/10/23 according to TAS site. Is this some sort of planning requirement, intransigence or incompetence?

Nothing to do with LVPs?

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Weather definitely could have been a contributing factor:
​​​​EGCC 250850Z VRB02KT 0350 R23R/1300D FG BKN001 03/03 Q0997
EGCC 250820Z VRB02KT 0600 R23R/0550N FG BKN002 03/03 Q0997
EGCC 250750Z 21002KT 0100 R23R/0250N FG BKN001 02/02 Q0997
EGCC 250720Z 16003KT 130V200 9999 0450S R23R/0900U BCFG SCT001 02/02 Q0997 TEMPO 0400 FG BKN001
EGCC 250650Z VRB01KT 9999 R23R/1000U PRFG NSC 02/02 Q0997
EGCC 250620Z VRB02KT 9999 MIFG NSC 02/02 Q0998 TEMPO 4000 BR
EGCC 250550Z VRB01KT 9999 MIFG NSC 03/03 Q0998 TEMPO 4000 BR

[A350Saltire]

EY’s newest 787-10 A6-BMJ seems to be dedicated to the AUH-MAN route. I was on it last week coming back from Abu Dhabi and it has operated solely on the MAN run since it was brought into service by EY.

Funny how this seems to happen. QR sent the same 777 for a while did they not?

[Buster the Bear]

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/133559-aer-lingus-considers-uk-growth-amid-dublin-constraints

[bobradamus]

Some kind of exercise on Runway 2 today?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1617x1090/img_4848_56f186d5c162cad5788364d2e743ffad1878d276.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1651x1066/img_4850_71b1143ee221080e321f9ca7a025753f7f7c88ed.jpeg

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Some kind of exercise on Runway 2 today?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1617x1090/img_4848_56f186d5c162cad5788364d2e743ffad1878d276.jpeg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1651x1066/img_4850_71b1143ee221080e321f9ca7a025753f7f7c88ed.jpeg
I believe it's a charity run.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Support our runway runners and walkers! https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/svg/1f3c3.svg The Manchester Airport Community will be taking part in a Runway Run in support of MAG's three charity partners:
@magic_breakfast (https://twitter.com/magic_breakfast), @childrensociety (https://twitter.com/childrensociety) and Medcare. Runners and walkers will be tackling a 5km run and a 2km walk on the second runway with the help of various teams across the Airport.

[eggc]

Some bits recently posted by SPD travels that I have not seen mentioned on here...

Saudia looking to add Jeddah twice weekly, meaning they'll have a daily flight to MAN ( 5 x RUH 2 x JED ).

Also Hianan's Beijing hopefully daily next summer.

[roverman]

Isn't it currently 5 x weekly to JED? They have operated to Riyadh before, I think that is what you mean, i.e. 2x weekly to RUH in addition to the 5 per week to JED. I believe they are carrying traffic connecting on to Pakistan whilst there is no direct service.

[eggc]

Yeah, sorry, and well spotted, wrong way around...been a long day ;)

[DomyDom]

EZY launch MAN-REU 2 x week (Tue/Sat) from 2nd April 24.

[Simy]

Is it no longer possible to access the main departures area in T3 after transferring from T2, for an onward domestic flight? I was a bit surprised when the staff member scanning boarding passes for transfer passengers said that it would be "better to stay" in T2 until nearer boarding time, since there is "not much there" (at T3). I asked if it was possible to go to the Escape Lounge in T3 after taking the bus and was told it was not. Staying in T2 caused much confusion among the Escape Lounge staff there. I can't be the first to have done this, surely.

Sure enough, when I did eventually take the bus to T3, I was dropped directly at the ground-level gates (147) with pretty much no facilities, other than a vending machine and toilets. The only way out of there seemed to be a route to Arrivals. Strange setup and not how I remember it from the last time I did this in 2020.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Earlier today, a friend drew my attention to a posting made on another well-known aviation forum concerning the current outlook for route development at MAN. The comments made therein are quite disturbing if true. I can't repost the message on here for reasons of copyright, but I will refer to the gist of what is alleged. The poster concerned has a solid track record of accuracy and appears to be well-connected. Of course, there is a good chance that the contributor is a regular on here as well, though I can't be sure of that. Perhaps he / she would like to comment if they are on here?

The comments are made across two postings addressing readers on an Edinburgh Airport thread. In the first, EDI is applauded for doing a "cracking job" in attracting new carriers, but the writer goes on to contrast this with MAN where he wishes he could say the same. According to the contributor, the team at MAN have "p****d off" a LOT of carriers, and several of these are Transatlantic operators. Challenged about this, a second post follows. In it, he alleges that there has been a major breakdown in the relationship between MAN and United Airlines, and the same can be said for Westjet. It is also suggested that MAN has been uncompetitive / unrealistic on prospective fees.

So ... what can we take away from this? Firstly, based on past track record, I do think that the poster is credible. On the two airlines mentioned, United Airlines operated a very successful MAN-EWR programme (inherited from Continental) over many years. They were expected back post-covid but show no signs of reappearing. However, they are expanding elsewhere in Europe - a record total of 38 European destinations will be served by the carrier in S24, a major expansion. Given that a UAL Senior VP made a speech lauding the success of their Manchester operation shortly before covid, it is alarming that MAN can't now make their 'Top 38', even against the backdrop of US point-of-sale advantage at the present time. Moving on to Westjet, they had actually announced a MAN-Halifax scheduled service launching in S2020; this was understandably scuppered by covid. However, they have just announced new services to EDI and LGW. No mention of MAN in the conversation.

So what do we know that could explain some of the background to this?

Whilst MAN has been understandably expressing delight at the impressive resurgence of passenger numbers this year, this may be disguising an underlying malaise. Almost all the growth relates to pre-existing services being restored in the post-covid environment. Only ONE new carrier joined the roster this year, this being EgyptAir (itself a returnee from earlier years). Looking forward to S24, we have two new scheduled carriers in prospect so far in the shape of Luxair and Southwind Airlines (Türkiye). It is early days, so there is still time for others to announce. But we must note that competing airports have enjoyed a flood of transformational announcements already, and MAN appears to have been left at the altar.

I always stress the importance of the main based carriers in driving traffic growth at MAN. Looking at Ryanair, they have 16 based B738/B38M at a T3 which offers 16 B738/B38M-capable stands. Under the recently-ended tenure of Mr Cornish, there were no completed initiatives I can recall to expand the capacity of T3 ... a most unfortunate oversight in my view ... and Ryanair now appears boxed-in. Some growth at the margins may be possible, but without a radical (and early) solution, their continued growth at MAN faces strangulation. I have suggested unlocking the access from T3 core to the stands on Pier B, but there appears to be no appetite from MAG to make this happen. EasyJet is expected to move across from T1 to T2 upon the completion of construction work there. They were on 21 based A320-family aircraft for S24; it is unclear to me how many more they can add looking ahead should they wish to do so. Meanwhile, Jet2 recently announced a new four aircraft base (rising to five) down the road at LPL; one cannot presume stellar expansion from them at MAN in the light of this. Jet2 is currently operating a split-terminal operation between T1 and T2 across Summer months; after S24 they will consolidate ops in T2. TUI does not appear to be in 'growth mode' generally at the present time, so I would expect broadly "as you were" from them in any case. Virgin Atlantic is set to restore Las Vegas for S24, another pre-covid regular reappearing at last. However, Virgin's programme remains a shadow of the pre-covid equivalent, even with massive Thomas Cook competition removed from the market. Of course, fleet reductions and the imperative to safeguard LHR-slots contribute to this. Finally, but not least, Aer Lingus UK. They appear set to remain at two based A333 - quite the disappointment in reality, as a third aircraft to open up a new Transatlantic route was looking very likely until quite recently.

We will learn more about the intentions of these six based carriers when the S24 ACL report is finally made public. I would like to see that these carriers are not being involuntarily constrained by lack of capacity provision in the two older terminals.

So, moving on to prospective 'new entrant' carriers (or apparent lack of them). Why is MAN underperforming expectations so badly? What do we know?

- Under the notoriously frugal Mr Cornish, MAN left its route development team on furlough long after competing airports had brought theirs back. I believe that this directly cost MAN potential new business from Vueling and/or Transavia to ORY at the time. Since then, other airports have announced a string of big wins. MAN hasn't.
- During the furlough period, enquiries to MAN defaulted to managers inexperienced in maintaining relationships with customer airlines. There are rumours that noses were put out of joint by some less-than-diplomatic exchanges. I can't verify the truth of these rumours one way or the other, but the very suggestion of this is worrying.
- MAN's incumbent route development supremo left for a new job in India. It is understandable that his replacement needs to be afforded time to make himself known and to build relationships with MAN's airline partners, but the pressure is on to deliver some big wins (beyond restoring pre-covid frequencies) too. Is his department empowered to offer competitive financial packages and new business incentives? If not, that needs to be addressed with urgency.
- We know that executives can point to the devastating impact of covid on the business. It will take time to recover. But we must keep in mind that competing airports faced those exact same challenges. And they're announcing big wins.
- I even heard one rumour that an airline which has recently announced a new scheduled service at a competing airport contacted MAN first and didn't receive any response. If there is any truth in that, the matter must be investigated from the very top and measures put in place to ensure that this can NEVER recur. Courtesy costs nothing, and every legitimate enquiry should receive at least a friendly and positive acknowledgment.

One final suggestion from me. It does appear (based upon gossip and circumstantial evidence coming from several quarters) that MAN has lost it's way with US and Canadian carriers. Well, there aren't very many of those out there, and the same names are likely to lead the field for years to come. So if cack-handed dealings with these carriers during the furlough period has soured relations (as seems plausible), remedial action is urgently needed. I would suggest a full-on charm offensive tour featuring a delegation of senior execs headed by Chris Woodroofe himself flying over to meet with United Airlines, American Airlines, Delta Airlines, Jetblue, Breeze, Air Canada*, Air Transat* and Westjet specifically, plus any other names considered prospective. * denotes that incumbent carriers should not be overlooked; we need expansion on YYZ and restoration of YVR. Here in Europe, Virgin Atlantic, Aer Lingus UK (and IAG in general?) should be visited, along with Norse Atlantic too. Singapore Airlines (and any other likely fifth-freedom candidate) should not be overlooked. And when visiting United and Westjet (arguably others), take along afew crates of juicy doughnuts and humble pie. Plus an attractive financial offer for new or restored scheduled links.

MAG can't just wait for T2 to fully reopen and expect to click the fingers and see carriers flock back. They must be wooed now. The competition is on the case now. Once established elsewhere, their business will be difficult to win back, and there is a very small field of viable airline partners to operate those key routes which we'd all like to see introduced (or restored) at MAN.

[SWBKCB]

Hasn't United growth in Europe been targeted on leisure destinations? I know others will disagree, but doubt they see MAN in that category.

[laviation]

I am the poster from the other forum. I agree with all your points made. I don’t think this is necessarily an issue with solely the routes team, as proof is in the pudding - they went out to China to try and convince Hainan to restore the full daily schedule and exactly that happened (I would imagine they also met with China Eastern & Juneyao as both carriers purportedly aspire to launch Shanghai). What I was told is that relationships with a number of airlines (whether ‘a lot’ may be an exaggeration - not sure of the exact number) were peeved off around Covid time. I think it’s mainly an issue of MAN simply not putting the effort in to repair these relationships / forge new ones since Covid.

The ‘failure’ to woo over United and especially Air India within the last 18 months is quite surprising, honestly. I don’t think it’s an issue of MAN having no pull - I think it’s an issue of not actively pursuing services as may have been done in the past. EDI have been a model example as they have done remarkably well especially going East.

Given the known success of the recent China trip., I think trips to the US and India should be arranged asap.


I must however state that the extent of these supposed issues may not be as widespread as I hear ‘through the grapevine’ and I have only heard specific details about United - but the apparent consensus is that certainly a few airlines have had a break down in relations with the airport, however given the ‘underperformances’ of the last few years I can believe such a claim.

I have requested for the original posts to be removed, as they were poorly worded and could potentially be misleading if what was posted is not 100%

[OzzyOzBorn]

laviation - Many thanks for making yourself known and elaborating on your comments made earlier on the other forum. I didn't want to presume your consent to being named on here, but appreciate your willingness to join the conversation.

I do wish to re-emphasise that I have no beef with the routes team and their new figurehead. Quite the contrary, I believe that it is their overly-prolonged post-covid furlough absence which sewed the seeds of the current malaise. The new face of MAN must be afforded time to forge relationships with existing and prospective partner carriers. But most importantly, he and his team must be fully-empowered to offer industry-competitive terms to bring in new business. That requires authorisation from the top. And MAN must be prepared to bite the bullet and incentivise some 'restored' routes as if they were completely new. They'll have to share the financial burden of building back.

SWBKCB - You are correct in pointing out that US point-of-sale remains prioritised at the present time. But the USDX (US Dollar Index) is now well off its recent highs and is forecast to weaken further by respected analysts. And in the specific case of the United Airlines MAN-EWR route, the company has access to years of data confirming just how successful that route was prior to the covid suspension (withdrawal?). Business travel is down, not gone. Leisure travel from the UK is down, not gone. But also gone is the majority of MAN's pre-covid Transatlantic capacity, specifically due to the collapse of Thomas Cook, slashed capacity from Virgin, and the non-restoration of services by US carriers. It should be beyond doubt that UAL can successfully relaunch MAN-EWR against the backdrop of relatively little alternative capacity having been restored to the MAN-US market.

I do endorse your comment implying that MAN enjoys less appeal than some competing destinations in the eyes of US-domiciled leisure customers. However, a good proportion of this market is VFR. If their roots and surviving relatives are here, this is where they want to visit. And Manchester's offer of music, football, foodie-culture and industrial heritage is actually quite trendy at the moment. Well-known US travel magazines have featured Manchester as a top pick over recent months. We're not Paris or Barcelona, but there is a product to be offered. Manchester is at the centre of a region boasting multiple world-class tourist attractions. More promotion of these internationally could deliver dividends.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Brevity is truly a lost art.....
Isn't another view that with rapid demographic change running rampant despite the "Conservative" Party's best efforts, that future long haul growth out of MAN may well not be West at all? Look at Saudia and Air India into BHX, the changes in our society are becoming more and more apparent. Glory days may well
lie ahead, just not to the US or Canada.

[OzzyOzBorn]

Is a jibe about 'Brevity' your best shot? I expect better from you, Skip.

The reason my post focuses on Transatlantic business is because this and England / Scotland domestic are the two outstanding areas of weak performance in MAN's post-covid portfolio. One addresses weaknesses where they arise.

PIA have been quite open in confirming that they aim to resume MAN services when safety authorisations permit. That process will take as long as it takes. It is regrettable that the Jet Airways schedule has not been backfilled following that carrier's demise, but the issue dates back well beyond covid. Virgin Atlantic plans to serve Pakistan and India from MAN were curtailed by the need to redeploy B789's to safeguard valuable LHR slots. These issues are out of MAG's hands.

Eastbound long-haul has generally rebounded strongly at MAN post-covid. Emirates is back 100% with 21/7 A388 services; Qatar will soon be back at 21/7 frequency as well. Etihad is operating one daily rather than two, but using high-capacity B77W equipment. Gulf Air, Saudia and Kuwait Airways are present and growing. EgyptAir is back, Ethiopian adding frequencies and using larger A359 equipment. Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific are on course to reach pre-covid frequencies. Hainan Airlines has a roadmap to reach daily frequencies again. Bangladesh Biman operates 3/7 with the B788. TUI operates eastbound leisure flights serving Goa and cruise destinations. The most notable absentee is Oman Air, but their business model has changed so they may not be back any time soon. In essence, there is no eastbound long-haul capacity crunch at MAN. New services would be welcome - especially to India - but customers can reach there from MAN using the Middle East carriers or Turkish Airlines and Pegasus.

There is no crisis eastbound. Westbound is different. Transatlantic capacity from MAN is down by around 50% since 2019. That is why my comments focus on this market in particular.

[Rutan16]

Back on 30th October i posted this on that other forum and my concerns remain unanswered

Potentially shines even more light and urgency for MAG

Were reading the “temporary” post Brexit US-UK aviation arrangements in the middle of the night - Insomnia change of clocks, and an anxiety (Joining a new business venture on Wednesday!)attack.

Sad I know

Its actually quite disturbing in some aspects as it most certainly NOT an Openskys agreement or even a continuation of the EU- US treaties.

Indeed at its core much is a restoration of prior UK- US arrangements some dating back as far as 1976 - - - -Financial and transfers/fund repatriation and the indeed the Bermuda 2 agreement!

With the exception of the limited Heathrow access that existed through - ThIs has been lined through I see !

The disturbing part is it implies age old regional airports and nominated status rules may have been restored as a bi-product but only on the UK end !

Unless a more effective variation and full treaty is quickly negotiated this will absolutely disadvantage Manchester in particular.

One can remember Manchester was never designated as a point of entry for any US carriers , but rather only UK ones .

American operated on a rolling variation and temporary license for many years before that changed.

And only the EU-US deal resulted in totally liberalisation.

The named point of entry for US carriers was Prestwick however amendments were to change that and Edinburgh is that designated airport today.

I think MAG Group should be seriously concerned and need to be lobbying the CAA as a matter of urgency, indeed have they NOT even read the arrangement

To an extent it shines a light on United Airlines position in particular _I have no doubt their legal teams are fully briefed on the implications ,much more so than a typical British minster at any rate.

Thoughts of a now exhausted old man

[OzzyOzBorn]

Interesting stuff. Looks like MAG have their homework assignment. It would be interesting to learn Mr Woodroofe's take on this.

EDIT: I think that it is the Department for Transport (DfT), not the CAA, which deals with aviation bilaterals.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Rutan16
The effective impact of all of this on MAN is what exactly? You seem to imply that only EDI is a designated Scottish airport which is going to be news to GLA.
Did you mean to suggest Bermuda II has been restored? That's obviously not true in whole, if it were, Delta wouldn't be permitted to fly out of LHR.
I think the management team at MAN might have read the agreement, I really think someone in their legal and risk team would have been on the ball, and if not at MAN, then GLA.

[Navpi]

Rutan16
The effective impact of all of this on MAN is what exactly? You seem to imply that only EDI is a designated Scottish airport which is going to be news to GLA.
Did you mean to suggest Bermuda II has been restored? That's obviously not true in whole, if it were, Delta wouldn't be permitted to fly out of LHR.
I think the management team at MAN might have read the agreement, I really think someone in their legal and risk team would have been on the ball, and if not at MAN, then GLA.

Oh my goodness if we have to spell this out to an analyst such as yourself Skip we really are in deep water in terms of reasoned debate on this forum.

Rutan is saying that "henceforth" MAN would not be a designated UK entry point for new applicant's, i suspect there is probably little they can do regarding services already in situ.

Now wouldn't that suit LHR down to the ground.

"Back in time to the seventies" Trebles all round....!

Does this explain why MAN has become a no fly zone for US airlines despite the highest ever loadings across UK US routes in 2023 ?

We know the xxxxs in Whitehall are not pre disposed to assisting any organisation within England outside the M25 and with a prickly ex Labour MP as Mayor of Manchester they won't be fixing this in a hurry.

As Ossy says it is the Dft who issue licences.

Back in 1976 and beforehand applicants to serve Manchester were routinely thrown out.

It was LHR, PWK or nothing.

It was an absurd situation.

It is why we talk in reverential terms about former CEO Gil Thompson as he managed to unpick those regulations and brought this inequality to a wider audience, he embarrassed Margaret Thatcher to the point where in fainess she actually eventually agreed.

If we now add in the mix the perception of inertia in the MAN Routes Development Team which has evolved whilst Cornish was on watch, well sadly, you have all the ingredients of a status quo.

If we have had interim lightweights supported by interns and 6th formers at the helm in the MAN Routes Department over the last 2 years as MAN juggled its top team, rather than stratergists with cunning and guile (as we had in the eighties) it's no wonder we are in trouble

Our previous routes manager was well connected, highly regarded and got things done..... the seeds laid pre covid have bourne fruit as those incumbents who suspended services over the pandemic Eastbound have returned. See Oct pax lvls.

There as been much "back slapping" on Linkedin regarding the latest PR and MANs return to pre covid traffic levels, but lets get real , those services and their return have been driven by the airlines not some beacon of light from within MAG shining a light on new destinations.

It is not new growth but simply a return of old services which would for the most part would have happened anyway.

The new management structure led by CW now has to prove itself in this area as it has done in customer service where the transformation has been meteoric.

Yes the new manager has to be given a chance, but CW doesn’t strike me as someone who will hang about.

[SWBKCB]

Aren't mega corporations like United data driven rather than being swayed by the charmers in route development teams?

[Flightrider]

There is nothing in the UK/US bilateral arrangements which would prevent carriers from either side launching new services tomorrow if they wished. Everyone is getting worked up about something that isn’t real.

The greater issue is short term capacity given move of T1 and T3 carriers into T2 from 2025.

That’s not an issue for United who showed no inclination to return to MAN.

Short term, return of US carriers is less likely. With a strong bias to US point of sale given the exchange rates, they are focusing on destinations like Edinburgh, Lisbon and even Faro. MAN is a much stronger UK originating market and that sector is currently not where it once was, given exchange rates.

If the exchange rate moves, so will some of the services. This notion that the bilateral is blocking MAN development is fanciful. If you need it proving beyond all doubt, those in Manchester should write to their MPs, ask them to table parliamentary questions to the DFT and confirm this answer on record.

[Navpi]

‘It would take a fool to say Manchester wasn’t a city going places,’ says United Airlines director“We don’t do this for fun...we do it because it makes a return and why does it make a return? because we are providing a service in a market that needs it and wants it”

United Airlines UK Manager addressing the Manchester chamber of commerce pre pandemic.
Bob Schumacher. 2017

"We’ve got a long history of connections as Bob mentioned... 1.6m people have passed through our doors in Manchester flying to North America and half a million people are flying to New York, but we fly to 10 airports in North America and we are flying the largest network in the UK outside of London to North America"
Tricia Williams Former MAG spokeperson, same conference

-------------------------------------------------------

The market has surely not evaporated on exchange rates alone ?

------------------------------------------------
As for your second point, I'm astounded.

"The greater issue is short term capacity given move of T1 and T3 carriers into T2 on 2025.

Really so can we expect the 4 now 5 JET2 units lost to Liverpool to return in 2025 ?

Its like a manager at ASDA saying to his customers we are doing a bit of renovation so you can't shop with us at the moment. The customer is somewhat peeed off so goes to ALDI where they are welcomed with open arms.

ASDA re open in 2025 but guess what the customers have all gone somewhere else !!!

[Flightrider]

It hasn’t “evaporated” but has reduced in size and airlines can make more money flying their aeroplanes somewhere else. If the MAN crows could look past narrow conspiracy theories about London always doing the north down for even half a second, you’d see that with United, they have chosen to add service from Newark to Nice, Naples, Faro and Malaga for S24. American has gone to Copenhagen, Nice and Naples (they’ll be busy). JetBlue has gone to Edinburgh and Dublin


Any of that capacity could theoretically have come to MAN. None of it has. The airlines are concluding there is more money to be made elsewhere.

[Flightrider]

And by the way, the Jet2 aircraft going into LPL for S24 aren’t “yours” (meaning MAN’s). They’re Jet2’s to put wherever they believe they can achieve the best return with them.

[SWBKCB]

And in the specific case of the United Airlines MAN-EWR route, the company has access to years of data confirming just how successful that route was prior to the covid suspension (withdrawal?).

“We don’t do this for fun...we do it because it makes a return and why does it make a return? because we are providing a service in a market that needs it and wants it”

If we have had interim lightweights supported by interns and 6th formers at the helm in the MAN Routes Department over the last 2 years as MAN juggled its top team, rather than strategists with cunning and guile (as we had in the eighties) it's no wonder we are in trouble

Our previous routes manager was well connected, highly regarded and got things done..... the seeds laid pre covid have bourne fruit as those incumbents who suspended services over the pandemic Eastbound have returned. See Oct pax lvls.

I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense - if the right money was to be made, United would be there. Doubt they are flying elsewhere because the others answered the phone quicker

[Navpi]

And by the way, the Jet2 aircraft going into LPL for S24 aren’t “yours” (meaning MAN’s). They’re Jet2’s to put wherever they believe they can achieve the best return with them.

So in one breath Jet2 have made a "strategic decison " to open a 5 unit base at Liverpool based presumbly on a ROI at Liverpool ( as indeed UA have done operating to DUB , EDI etc etc.... )

This despite the fact Manchester and Liverpool are in an identical demographic market.

In effect our best customer has opened up 28 miles down the road serviing the same customer base.

.... in the prevous post you said growth at Manchester is only temporarily resticted due to WIP capacity.

So thats fine Jet2 will be back in 18 months ?

Which is it ?

[Flightrider]

On the basis that Jet2 announced the LPL growth many months before Summer 2024 slot allocations became known only recently, they’ve chosen to grow at Liverpool on its own merits.

And as United didn’t even request at MAN, they clearly aren’t interested. Constraints don’t stop airlines from doing something they weren’t going to do anyway.

Given the litigious nature of the US carriers (just look at JetBlue at AMS) then you can be certain that if some barrier in either the bilateral or slot allocations stood in the way of them flying to MAN, we’d all know about it. There would be calls for BA to be banned from serving ****sville Arizona as their new US arrival point, Virgin to be barred from launching MAN-LAS and the whole nine yards. But no. The US carriers are not interested right now. That may change with time.

[laviation]

I know the same things were said this time last year, but I would expect (with good confidence - although at least two of these airlines have been billed for launches in 2023 and 24 yet never occurred) at least one US carrier in S25. Possibly even four.

One has MAN literally right up the top of their ‘next destinations’ list, another is claiming ‘aircraft shortages’ however should not be too long before any issues are remedied, three is a bit uncertain, but I have heard a date of June 2025 for this carrier. Last but least likely, the fourth carrier could make an appearance in order to assist expansion from an existing incumbent carrier.

[chaps1954]

As is common knowlege United at present don`t have the aircraft for Manchester as the 757 are going and were not fit for purpose and A321 are coming soon and the 767 were same number of seats but were to high on premium classes and American are in same position.

[CabinCrewe]

but with reductions and cancelled routes elsewhere they still had aircraft to launch eg Faro. I do not see a sudden flurry of TA route launches to MAN just when a few A321s come online. If its all about outbound American leisure focussed, I don’t really see MAN filling that brief currently.

[Rutan16]

It hasn’t “evaporated” but has reduced in size and airlines can make more money flying their aeroplanes somewhere else. If the MAN crows could look past narrow conspiracy theories about London always doing the north down for even half a second, you’d see that with United, they have chosen to add service from Newark to Nice, Naples, Faro and Malaga for S24. American has gone to Copenhagen, Nice and Naples (they’ll be busy). JetBlue has gone to Edinburgh and Dublin


Any of that capacity could theoretically have come to MAN. None of it has. The airlines are concluding there is more money to be made elsewhere.

None of that disproves the potential oversight . All EU -US points REMAIN OPENSKYS, Americans are cruise worshippers queue those points, and Edinburgh a dedicated US entry point for rules prior.

I accept the current effects of dollar/pound ratios and the general economic malaise within the wider UK economy especially prevalent in the regions where manufacturing work ratios are higher .

Skip can you perhaps rephrase the earliest slightly racist comment re changes in societal attitudes and norms .

Remember Manchester has been connected on a near daily basis to New York ( caveat a 2 year break on the collapse of Laker - even that period covered by KT charters to Newark) since 1957 ! - Longer than most other European cities of its size including many capitals.

I am also not the least implying that Edinburgh hasn’t /doesn’t deserve their valuable bounty albeit heavily seasonal( yes is increasing in length sure)

If there is this potential and legal barrier right now as Navi says NASA we have a problem because that makes Manchester or indeed Birmingham so much easier to fail first principle risk analysis whatever the potential revenue figures might otherwise suggest down the line.

At this point that’s where MAG development team MUST interdict and support , rather than ignore calls. If that is where the team have been for the last few years its a gross dereliction of duty to the shareholders and things including people regrettably must Change !

As for aircraft shortages at United well aware of that in relation to the 321XLR deliveries and schedules - Simply won’t be on estate in any numbers before late spring 2025 anyway.

Even before reading the document referred to I expected nothing before June 2025 anyway.
To some extent I remain optimistic that timeframe is achievable , caveat clarity on the agreement between the UK and US authorities meantime.

If those potential issues aren’t ironed out you can forget it and those frames will be deployed elsewhere. I am also not sure of the rate and how many will initially replace the remaining 757 frames on existing routes before capacity is available for meaningful expansion.

Same could be applied to American from Philadelphia.

As for Delta expect further leverage of Virgin Atlantic into the mid term and I do expect a further west coast route to be restored at some point .

Big question is probably Boston widget or Red tail or more likely Clover ☘️

[Flightrider]

I repeat my earlier comment. There is no barrier in the bilateral to any carrier of either side launching more transatlantic services from MAN. Waste all the time you want on this hypothesis but it’s not the case.

So if the airlines aren’t coming l, but have the equipment to launch other routes in the meantime, MAN has not made it to the top of their list of things to do with the assets they have. That will change over time - even if some of the things they are doing don’t work as expected, which could be the case with the pile-on of capacity into Nice, Naples or even Edinburgh.

[SWBKCB]

Rutan - which document are you referring to and which part of it in particular?

This seems to be the current one - see article 11 in particular?

Air Transport Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the United States of America (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60ae4a7ce90e071b539d7b09/TS_12.2021_UK_USA_Air_Transport_Agreement.pdf)

[Rutan16]

I repeat my earlier comment. There is no barrier in the bilateral to any carrier of either side launching more transatlantic services from MAN. Waste all the time you want on this hypothesis but it’s not the case.

So if the airlines aren’t coming l, but have the equipment to launch other routes in the meantime, MAN has not made it to the top of their list of things to do with the assets they have. That will change over time - even if some of the things they are doing don’t work as expected, which could be the case with the pile-on of capacity into Nice, Naples or even Edinburgh.

Go spend three hours read the documentation available and then consider what is the case in point .Or happy to change my mind immediately if you or anyone can specifically point to the paragraph( s) that allow free and unlimited access to US airlines to any UK airport post withdrawal from the comprehensive EU-US treaty.

Again right now we simply do not have an open skies style arrangement that’s the unpalatable fact.

And again if you read what I said further I don’t expect any US carrier to enter the market before 2025 and then only if the UK and US do complete on a truly comprehensive agreement for multiple years ahead .

My concern here is that had it not been the consequence of the EU-US agreement the UK historical stances weren’t exactly productive were they ?

It was the UK as a bargaining chip that held and restricted access to Heathrow for the US carriers for years, with a demand for cabotage and an increase in external holdings of US carriers.

BA in particular lobbied both side of the Atlantic for the foreign ownership limits to be raised to 49% _ Still isn’t today !
Yet no reciprocity to be seen -Queue Virgin Atlantic !

That same legacy meant American had to re apply on a temporary rollover for authority to continue to operate AA54/55 for years on end.

Never in a million years would that get approved by the representatives on Constitution Avenue.

Government agencies across the world continue to determine aviation policy, when where and how many seats may be sold ( India dreadful policy on seat caps). The few regional opensky style treaties remain exceptional.

The industry is therefore not a free for all run entirely on market forces even today.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Rutan16 Said "Skip can you perhaps rephrase the earliest slightly racist comment re changes in societal attitudes and norms ." WTAF?

Accusing someone of racism is a serious matter not to be taken lightly, this isn't a school playground. So let me remind you of the "terrible" thing said.
I said : "Isn't another view that with rapid demographic change running rampant despite the "Conservative" Party's best efforts, that future long haul growth out of MAN may well not be West at all? Look at Saudia and Air India into BHX, the changes in our society are becoming more and more apparent. Glory days may well
lie ahead, just not to the US or Canada."

I made no comment on attitdes at all! I presented an objective measure with no underlying sentiment. The population split of the area is moving quickly towards a smaller % white British and population growth is coming from new immigrant communities who still believe in having kids, we've given up! Hence over time, the overall % of long haul going West will likely fall as people travel East to reconnect or visit family. If you can't see that, or deal with it, and shriek "racist" when presented with the most basic of trends, then maybe debate isn't for you. These boards remain some of the more calm and thoughtful on the internet, let's try and keep it that way, and not yell "FIRE" when we disagree.
There's a reason that Emirates sent the A380 to MAN so early on before many other traditional European capitals, embrace that, deny it, the choice is yours. But this isn't the world of Gil Thomson anymore, for better or worse. Stop trying to turn the clock back, there's bigger opportunities elsewhere it seems to me.
As for the guys involved in secret squirrel conversations who say "Airline A is a cert for 2025" well we hear this annually.....

[Flightrider]

If you go read what SWBKCB has helpfully posted, it’s right there. Document entered force 25 March 2021 so post Brexit. Article 2(1)(c)(i) and 2(1)(c)(ii) are the bits you need to read.

US airlines have full traffic rights for point behind USA-USA-UK and onwards if they wish, so fifth freedom rights. So Fiji-LAX-MAN-FRA would be possible (for instance). UK airlines have rights to fly XXX-UK-USA-YYY - so could fly Kuwait-MAN-JFK-YVR for example.

The only thing carved out is domestic rights in each other’s countries (cabotage) which is pretty normal.

The agreement also supersedes other agreements including the 1977 agreement signed at Bermuda which is commonly referred to as Bermuda II, and the revisions to that which followed over the years.

There is no reason why a US carrier wanting to fly to Manchester could not start doing so tomorrow.

[Rutan16]

Rutan - which document are you referring to and which part of it in particular?

This seems to be the current one - see article 11 in particular?

Air Transport Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the United States of America (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60ae4a7ce90e071b539d7b09/TS_12.2021_UK_USA_Air_Transport_Agreement.pdf)

Correct article however my reading of article 11 is about fair competition however it’s absolutely not clear that it’s anythin close to openskys .

It was reading that and specifically the brevity of the paragraph that concerned me.

It and chapter 15 implied this is a placement document and further clarity and deeper agreements are necessary.

But anyway thanks for the post .

Still MAG route development teams have work to do immediately and that is for sure whatever the current general economic conditions are at play.

Will Manchester ever recover from the collapse of Thomas Cooks US venture doubtful , however LAX Boston, Philadelphia and perhaps Dallas should seem achievable in the next 3 to 5 years

[Navpi]

A few posters have lapsed into "strategic oversight.

This thread was actually started following confirmation that a number of airlines had actually applied and received slots !

They HAD already made a decsion to come here, and were prepared to start, but then they got as far as Manchester's front door, its believed it was closed.

I have no idea if that is true or false.

I have no reason to disbelieve the person who posted that as they seem to be a supporter of Manchester and would have no reason to invent a number of fictional negative stories.

It would be equally jaw dropping if MAN didn't welcome them with open arms, but if JET2, our best customer feel compelled to double their costs by setting up 30 mins drivetime away and United haven't returned despite gushing in praise pre Covid , you do tend to think there is another narrative at play which has affected the rumour of other other applications.

IF its space then someone needs to be accountable.

We should have built more space for aircraft BEFORE carpet bombing the place with car parks and BEFORE starting work on T2.

MAN has gifted 5 aircraft to it nearest rival. That has effectively creamed off 2024 growth but worse has set a precedent where they can now turn round and negotiate on price going forward as well.

What happens in 2025 ?

Is it more aircraft at Manchester OR would they simply now continue to exapand at Liverpool?

That's why i don't understand this narrative that it will be all ok when tbe WIP is finished. Lots of carriers appear to have moved on.

If MAN really think airlines that couldn't be accomodated in 2024 and who have since started in Liverpool, Edinburgh, Birmingham and Dublin (cough) will comeback i think they are sadly mistaken.

[Flightrider]

When it comes to the bilateral, please read Article 2 - grant of rights. That contains the secret sauce of the bilateral and sets out who can do what. The rest of its content all supports that clause.

It’s for Jet2 to explain why they have set up shop down the road. My guess is that they will have looked at a postcode analysis of their customer base and recognised that they are weaker in the Liverpool area, where passengers are flying with Ryanair and easyJet (increasingly active in the holiday market) from Liverpool. If there is a part of the market you aren’t attracting but believe you need to, you go set up shop where you need to be to capture it.

What I do not “get” through all of this is the assumption that there is some conspiracy theory in high places to do Manchester down. It’s just bizarre. And Skipness makes a good point about growth coming from other areas, just not transatlantic right now.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I remember United strongly defending the importance of their GLA-IAD route literally the week that the announcement was made they were axeing it. I have also had a request for a refund on LHR-MME with bmi denied when we all knew it was axed but no announcement had been made. Businesses work in siloes. PR and marketing are all positive and nice, revenue management and finance are realistic.
Hence you must always take PR with a bucket of salt, no
matter who is talking. Saying the wrong thing can even upset the share price.

And surely easyJet didn't "double their costs" when they finally set up at MAN after years at LPL? Room for both surely?

[Manair6]

It’s also important to remember that whilst frequency and range of destinations in the US are down MAN had more seats available to the US than EDI whose services are mainly 757/767, whereas MAN are all wide bodies A333,A351,B789 etc with much higher capacities.

As an example Virgin are now basing 2 397 seat A350-1000’s during summer which is a big increase in capacity.

[SWBKCB]

A few posters have lapsed into "strategic oversight", this thread was actually started on the basis that a number of airlines actually applied and received slots , they HAD already made a decsion to come here, but when they got as far as Manchester's front door it was closed.



Agreed, but it then got diverted on the basis that airlines were restricted from operating into MAN from the US by bilateral agreement and the outrage bus gathered pace. There isn't any such restriction in the agreement and it needs to get nailed before it enters into Urban Myth.

[Navpi]

"It’s for Jet2 to explain why they have set up shop down the road. My guess is that they will have looked at a postcode analysis of their customer base and recognised that they are weaker in the Liverpool area".

Given customers to the North of Liverpool are the only ones who might benefit and are at worse an extra 30 mins away from MAN and those on the Eastern side are equidistant if not nearer I would say its an identical footprint ?

Plus the traffic mix argument is diminished further. 30% of the Liverpool mix of traffic is to Eire and Northern Ireland.

Jet2 are not serving Belfast, Dublin, Cork Shannon, Knock or Londonderry as RYR and EZY do currently.

Not sure the post code argument stacks but maybe it does ?

[chaps1954]

From memory there has nearly always been an IT operation out of Liverpool going back to days or Laker 1-11s in early 70s may be even earlier with Eagle but those are before my days
and most have run operations from both LPL and MAN.
Jet2 are adding a lot of extra aircraft to their fleet which have to be filled I mean 9 738 this winter alone plus the A321s and only 2 757 and maybe a couple of 733 leaving so in effect no aircrarft are being pinched from anywhere.

As for United to FAO 4 days a week on a really knackered 757 which I know people were not keen on travelling on as time keeping was awful as were Americans

[chaps1954]

From memory there has nearly always been an IT operation out of Liverpool going back to days or Laker 1-11s in early 70s may be even earlier with Eagle but those are before my days
and most have run operations from both LPL and MAN.
Jet2 are adding a lot of extra aircraft to their fleet which have to be filled I mean 9 738 this winter alone plus the A321s and only 2 757 and maybe a couple of 733 leaving so in effect no aircrarft are being pinched from anywhere.

As for United to FAO 4 days a week on a really knackered 757 which I know people were not keen on travelling on as time keeping was awful as were Americans

[TURIN]

My former employer was the engineering handling agent for most of the US airlines that were at MAN pre covid. If those airlines wanted to return within the next 12 months, they would have to ask someone else or set up their own engineering Base. The demographic has meant large numbers of experienced people have retired or have left for pastures new.
The airport is undergoing huge change and if the rumours are true about T1, even bigger change is coming.
If I was looking at somewhere to restart longhaul services it would not be MAN, not for at least 5 years anyway.

In other news I've heared Easyjet will have 30 aircraft based at MAN and want to set up their own engineering Base. God knows where they will get the staff!

[eye2eye5]

Could it not be the case that 30% of the Liverpool traffic mix is from Eire and Northern Ireland because there is no sizeable IT operation from there at present? Surely, it’s a very astute move by Jet2 as it effectively takes market share from TUI. Passengers can either choose to fly locally with a very well respected Jet 2 or travel further to fly with a rather tired TUI which needs a brand refresh IMHO. Jet2 will also be aware that EZY have great aspirations for easyJet Holidays which - from recent financials- is trading ahead of expectations. Should they sit on their laurels and allow that to grow without competition?

[azz767]

A few posters have lapsed into "strategic oversight.

This thread was actually started following confirmation that a number of airlines had actually applied and received slots !

They HAD already made a decsion to come here, and were prepared to start, but then they got as far as Manchester's front door, its believed it was closed.

I have no idea if that is true or false.

I have no reason to disbelieve the person who posted that as they seem to be a supporter of Manchester and would have no reason to invent a number of fictional negative stories.

It would be equally jaw dropping if MAN didn't welcome them with open arms, but if JET2, our best customer feel compelled to double their costs by setting up 30 mins drivetime away and United haven't returned despite gushing in praise pre Covid , you do tend to think there is another narrative at play which has affected the rumour of other other applications.

IF its space then someone needs to be accountable.

We should have built more space for aircraft BEFORE carpet bombing the place with car parks and BEFORE starting work on T2.

MAN has gifted 5 aircraft to it nearest rival. That has effectively creamed off 2024 growth but worse has set a precedent where they can now turn round and negotiate on price going forward as well.

What happens in 2025 ?

Is it more aircraft at Manchester OR would they simply now continue to exapand at Liverpool?

That's why i don't understand this narrative that it will be all ok when tbe WIP is finished. Lots of carriers appear to have moved on.

If MAN really think airlines that couldn't be accomodated in 2024 and who have since started in Liverpool, Edinburgh, Birmingham and Dublin (cough) will comeback i think they are sadly mistaken.

I think the whole MAN has gifted 5 aircraft to its rival is a little shortsighted. All routes opening from LPL are available from MAN. Aside from leasing in more widebodies for the summer on these specific routes Jet2 are maxed out at MAN. If they were opening new markets from LPL I’d understand your argument but it is purely adding frequencies, and for me an extra daily flight to the canaries/balearics/greece/cyprus is the last thing MAN needs. And whilst competition is great it’s also not a massive win for LPL either.

[laviation]

Jet2 @ LPL realistically has nothing to do with Manchester.

They have been taking A321s and second hand 737s by the ton since the start of the year. The LPL base will be a surplus of new aircraft, not aircraft taken out of MAN. Further growth at MAN will largely be driven by the swapping of based 737s to A321s.

Liverpool for Jet2 is mostly a new market. As has been stated all destinations to be offered ex LPL are available in much higher frequency ex MAN.

The base will compliment MAN not take away from it. Look at easyJet for example.

[Navpi]

Could it not be the case that 30% of the Liverpool traffic mix is from Eire and Northern Ireland because there is no sizeable IT operation from there at present? Surely, it’s a very astute move by Jet2 as it effectively takes market share from TUI. Passengers can either choose to fly locally with a very well respected Jet 2 or travel further to fly with a rather tired TUI which needs a brand refresh IMHO. Jet2 will also be aware that EZY have great aspirations for easyJet Holidays which - from recent financials- is trading ahead of expectations. Should they sit on their laurels and allow that to grow without competition?


Well they could have stayed at Manchester. If you are trying to steal market share from TUI how on earth does setting up at Liverpool help ?

[eye2eye5]

They have stayed at Manchester as well as opening up at Liverpool! They can take market share in the North West from TUI by offering a USP which TUI does not have ie a Liverpool departure.

[OzzyOzBorn]

And surely easyJet didn't "double their costs" when they finally set up at MAN after years at LPL?

EasyJet didn't actually set up a base at MAN. They gained one overnight by virtue of taking over GB Airways which had an established operation at MAN.

In other news I've heared Easyjet will have 30 aircraft based at MAN and want to set up their own engineering Base.

Interesting. Are you able to advise a timescale for this proposed expansion? Thanks.

Well, this conversation has moved on apace since I last checked in. Healthy debate on here is good to see. I can't comment on the implications of bilateral treaty restrictions or lack of them ... I'll leave that to those more familiar with the situation. But returning to the United Airlines discussion, I would make a couple of points. Exchange rates have indeed favoured US travellers bound for Europe in the post-covid era, and carriers have allocated resources accordingly. However, the notion that this should preclude any consideration of restoring service to MAN is moot. UK-domiciled travellers are still flying - just at a reduced volume than was previously the case. Likewise business travel - it is down, not gone completely. MAN does also suit those US-domiciled VFR passengers with roots in the North of England. That combination still adds up to a significant pool of customers. Less than pre-covid, yes, but since available seat capacity between MAN and the USA was down by 50-60% versus S19 during S23, that reduction in latent demand is more than accounted for. MAN does not need to be United's top performer in Europe. It just needs to be comfortably esconced amidst the top 38 ... and I contend that it will be, given a chance. The routes team need to be all over that, promoting the case for MAN and reminding UAL execs of their historic route performance which they can readily verify inhouse. If there is truth in the suggestion that a rift has developed between MAG and United execs over some unfortunate past conversations, it is up to MAG to offer an olive branch now and smooth things over. A sales tour of the US carriers featuring Mr Woodroofe would be an excellent idea at this juncture. If United (for one) do return, that will be a financial win-win for both parties.

On the parallel discussion concerning Jet2 ops, it will be illuminating to examine their capacity proposals for MAN S24 versus MAN S23 once the delayed ACL report emerges. I'm expecting little ambition from TUI - anything beyond 'as you were' will be a bonus; Ryanair's proposed numbers will be fascinating - just how boxed in are they at T3 now? EasyJet will make for interesting reading too. I sincerely hope that MAG is not telling any of these carriers that additional based units cannot be accommodated in the numbers requested. 🤞

[eggc]

Have Jet2 not competely saturated MAN if they stick to their business model ? There are only so many bucket & spade / city break destinations and surely they cover most of them now ? Increased frequency could be an option to eat up new based aircraft, but LPL could win more market share for them in the NW...which bothers Jet2 more than how many aircraft they base at MAN.

As far TA, MAN's demand as we know is mainly UK originating for leisure purposes, but the USA in now expensive for Brits so maybe even that sector is suffereing somewhat, however I see more potential chasing UK carriers for expansion over US legacy airlines. Jet2 jumps off the page but they seem content at the minute not doing it, but add to that VS and EIUK and here is where our future lies IMO. They just fit MAN better than US carriers.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

OzzyOzBorn said : "EasyJet didn't actually set up a base at MAN. They gained one overnight by virtue of taking over GB Airways which had an established operation at MAN."

From which small beginning they self evidently SET UP A LARGE BASE.

If MAN transatlantic was a low hanging fruit, why haven't MAG made a deal with Norse? They're the perfect replacement for Thomas Cooks non daily point to point leisure operation? Are MAG holding them off in the hope of a returning US legacy?

[eye2eye5]

I’m not sure that all is well at Norse, recently appointed external consultants.

[Curious Pax]

Re Jet2, it’s probably worth pointing out that introducing Liverpool flights will also allow them to stop EZY/RYR having completely free rein to expand there. A Jet2 fleet on the tarmac at Liverpool, especially if they expand as rapidly as they have at other bases, will reduce the options the other 2 have to eat into their M62 corridor traffic.

[OzzyOzBorn]

From which small beginning they self evidently SET UP A LARGE BASE.

Well, yes. Thankfully so. But what is your point? I haven't disputed this in any way.

​​​​​​​ If MAN transatlantic was a low hanging fruit, why haven't MAG made a deal with Norse?

There is an issue of scale. Thomas Cook had a based fleet of up to seven A330's plying the Atlantic each day from MAN. The entire Norse fleet of B789's is only ten strong, and these are spoken for by the existing route network. However, MAN clearly is 'on the radar' from Norse's perspective, as they applied for sufficient slots to operate a daily service in the recent past. Of course, internal challenges within the airline may influence outcomes first.

[laviation]

It was believed Norse had planned to launch JFK in S24, however this info was many months ago (around June time) - seems very unlikely now as I am led to believe slots not held in S24

[Balair]

FedEx back from end of October is a start, at least. BFS-MAN-CDG, 737-300F. Operated during silly o'clock, IIRC 0130a/0530d

I hate to raise this contentious topic (for MAN anyway) again, but has this service commenced yet or has the start been delayed, as I haven’t seen any mention of it?
I get the impression from reading the trade press that FedEx appear to be consolidating their operations at the moment, so could this account for any delay if that is the case?

[laviation]

I hate to raise this contentious topic (for MAN anyway) again, but has this service commenced yet or has the start been delayed, as I haven’t seen any mention of it?
I get the impression from reading the trade press that FedEx appear to be consolidating their operations at the moment, so could this account for any delay if that is the case?

FedEx handed back their W23 slots, now aiming for S24.

[Balair]

Thanks for the update, hopefully they are in a position to start the service then.

[Mr A Tis]

Surely the J2 LPL ops is to stifle any RYR / EZY expansion aspirations?. Back in the day Britannia /Thomson had a reasonable IT programme ex Liverpool serviced by W pattern Manchester based aircraft. TUI have certainly lost their way.
On the other topic, my gut instinct is that MAG are happy to aspire to greater bucket and spade flights as they are easier targets for all the duty free, bars, restaurants and car park ancillary revenue. Hence the lack of interest in repairs to infrastructure (fix walkways by taking them out) bus station falling into disrepair as are other parts of the airport, part of the Charlie Cornish tight reign on spending. T2 TP scaled back in facilities, freight discouraged, lots of things appear to have moved into the too difficult box, I guess ambitious route development is parked there too. They are relying on growth from Ryanair,J2 and easyjet IMHO.

[OzzyOzBorn]

They are relying on growth from Ryanair,J2 and easyjet IMHO.

I do hope not. They've got Ryanair thoroughly boxed in with Cornish having vetoed spending on T3 expansion early in his 12-13 year tenure, and nothing added there since. EasyJet may add a 22nd aircraft for S24 (up from 21) ... fingers crossed. Jet2 split-terminal ops till end of S24 and setting up a competing base down the road. TUI in the deep-freeze. I actually think that the business driven by these carriers really is very valuable to MAN, and isn't always afforded the respect it deserves by those outside the business. But I fear for meaningful expansion from this sector in the medium term ... MAG MUST do something about T3 capacity for starters (ideally feed Pier B from it IMHO), and then bring new T2 capacity online ASAP. It is unfortunate that the ACL report for S24 has been delayed. The percentage comparisons for these four carriers S23 v S24 will make for illuminating reading. Fingers tightly crossed they surprise to the upside, but I wouldn't place a bet on that.

I would place the need for an apron extension on the airport campus and expansion of T3 as higher priorities than further work on T2 once the current phase is completed. The former should be constructed to provide resilience for the next decade of growth; the latter is required right now!

[Manchester Exile]

The airport is undergoing huge change and if the rumours are true about T1, even bigger change is coming.

What are the rumours regarding T1? I understand that T1 is due to close in 2025 once the T2 transformation is complete, but is there some other plan being considered?

[TURIN]

What are the rumours regarding T1? I understand that T1 is due to close in 2025 once the T2 transformation is complete, but is there some other plan being considered?
T1 to be demolished and T2 extended towards T3. But that was last month's plan. This month it could be completely different

[Navpi]

T1 to be demolished and T2 extended towards T3. But that was last month's plan. This month it could be completely different

The original plan and sketches circa 2012 -2014 showed T2 morthing INTO T1. The 747 pier was removed but the two T1 piers were retained to make one huge terminal.

Fast forward 10 years and the last plans i saw showed T1 as as an empty shell. We can't even demolish it as there would then be further constraints on parking stands during that process.

[SWBKCB]

I would place the need for an apron extension on the airport campus and expansion of T3 as higher priorities than further work on T2 once the current phase is completed. The former should be constructed to provide resilience for the next decade of growth; the latter is required right now!

It's a conundrum how the airport expands (other then replacing small aircraft with bigger ones) without additional stands, and where the space for these stands comes from. Sure there are gaps between waves, but there are reasons why those gaps exist.

[azz767]

It's a conundrum how the airport expands (other then replacing small aircraft with bigger ones) without additional stands, and where the space for these stands comes from. Sure there are gaps between waves, but there are reasons why those gaps exist.

Ive wondered about this also. And I also spoke to a good friends dad who used to be ATC at MAN and asked him, here were his thoughts.

The immediate issue at the moment is the A380 which needs stand 12 for the 3 daily flights, yes there are remote A380 stands but that is not sustainable long term to have 3 daily A380’s on remote. So you would assume/hope that the second pier being built will have A380 capable gates (or at least one). If that is the case, EK can move to T2 and that leaves EZY plus a few EI that use pier B consistently. EI it makes sense to move to T2 anyway with EUK. And EZY can park remote, they only use contact at T1 for the first wave. This leaves the opportunity to demolish pier B initially, which immediately frees up apron space for multiple remote stands. With its proximity to T3 many would be ideal for RYR.

However the real big issue as my friends dad said is pier C as it creates a cul de sac. In an ideal world you’d get rid of pier C and create another row/rows of stands coming out of T2, with space for a pier to be built in future if deemed necessary. Let’s look at who uses pier C. Most star carriers (SN aside), EY, GF, FI and some Turkish charter airlines. Most if not all would ideally like contact stands, so how would this impact T2? Well, the new pier would take some of the slack and the far side of pier A could accommodate them but it would mean more remote parking for the likes of BY and LS, which would they be happy with or bothered about? (I don’t know the answer to this question) If so do you want to be hacking off two of your biggest based airlines?

As my friends dad said, the big issue is Pier C both in terms of its location and the airlines that use it. But the quick win to free up space and therefore flexibility is pier B once EK are moved.

it was an interesting take and being former ATC he obviously knows his stuff. His opinion was that a mistake was initially made going for a pier structure at T2 rather than a satellite structure, but that’s another argument in itself.

[chaps1954]

The thing is he may have been a controller but has he degree in the building industry because what someone thinks wil be good idea might not be possible
or cost effective in the bulding or design industry

[Navpi]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-expansion-plan-security-9370929

"T1 to be demolished " was the line.

But not anymore.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I don't think easyJet would accept fully remote parking just like that! Why should they? They're a better customer to MAN than BA. Why should Ryanair get on stand parking and easyJet have to bus everyone?

[Navpi]

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-expansion-plan-security-9370929

"T1 to be demolished " is the line.

[SWBKCB]

Any updates since 2015?

[42psi]

My understanding is that initially T1 (terminal building) will be "mothballed".
Following that the other areas will continue/be developed.
Once ready to do something with T1 the layout/connection plan can be finalised and built.

[eggc]

Royal Jordanian starting AMM - MAN ( and STN ) from Mar 24. Flight ops twice weekly on Thursday and Saturday arr MAN 1315 dep 1400 using 319/320/E175. Credit Aeroroutes.

[TURIN]

Does anyone know what's currently being built on stand 209?

[OzzyOzBorn]

I don't think easyJet would accept fully remote parking just like that!

I don't think they will be asked to. It will be some of one and some of the other. I also suspect that remote parking could come at a lower price point than use of a contact stand which is why some carriers are more OK with it than others.

[azz767]

Royal Jordanian starting AMM - MAN ( and STN ) from Mar 24. Flight ops twice weekly on Thursday and Saturday arr MAN 1315 dep 1400 using 319/320/E175. Credit Aeroroutes.

Thats some flight on an E175 isn’t it?

[Mr Mac]

azz767
It is not for me I am afraid.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Navpi]

Well the range of the ALIA 175s is 1700miles and the distance between Manchester and Amman is 2400 miles so don't fret.

Deary me.....

[UnderASouthernSky]

Does anyone know what's currently being built on stand 209?

Post #3159 asked similar and #3160 made a suggestion.