Manchester-3

[SWBKCB]

What do the people of Manchester want from their airport ? Should it be a centre for O&D flights to Tenerife ? Or do they want a wider variety of airlines and destinations ?

It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both.

[davidjohnson6]

It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both.
I mention Manchester because the city and its suburbs are MAN's primary catchment area. However, my question remains... what do the people of the region want from MAN ?

One could make MAN into something very leisure O&D focussed, optimising it for flights to the likes of Tenerife, its most popular route... or you could focus on connectivity to a large number of different airports. MAN (like any airport) cannot be optimised for all airlines, all routes and all passengers... a decision has to be made on what MAN should be long term. There will always be a difference between what a LCC wants, and what a long haul network airline wants... and MAN cannot keep all the people happy all the time.

So what do people in the region want from MAN ?

[chaps1954]

The likes of Egyptair, Air India, Kuwait, Gulf Air and flights to America are much more important or if you include European Holiday resorts upgrade to wide body which Jet2 and TUI do

[Asturias56]

"It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both."

depends where you are in the "north" - getting to Manchester Airport from the NE or even Leeds is a serious pain

[simoncorbett]

It’s what Jet 2 do they look at demand & act accordingly they already fly from both EDI GLA & BHX EMA so LPLMAN was always likely as I’m sure STN will have another London airport alongside soon as will BRS in time

[chaps1954]

They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few. I know that their are more reasons.

[Rutan16]

"It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both."

depends where you are in the "north" - getting to Manchester Airport from the NE or even Leeds is a serious pain
Inclusive and package holiday flights are embedded within the Core DNA that is Manchester Airport and almost from the day that Ringway opened for business and even more from the late sixties to the present day.

Much, indeed most of the development has and remains powered and referenced by this business model. Terminal buildings, R2 and retail in no particular order.

Pier C was built out to accommodate the 747 and DC10s used by certain Canadian and one truly innovative UK carrier of the era.

Britannia brought 767 to inter European charters and Airtours were a leading tour company and both would develop into the long haul opening Caribbean and even South East Asian destinations in their later iterations

This history can not and must not be thrown out with the bathwater and certainly not to appease a few tens of thousands to the leeward side of the city region. Not sorry if some sensibilities are upset by that !

Equally and parallel through the eighties the Airport management were front and centre in battles with the CAA in the pursuit of liberalisation of the archaic bilateral conditions that prevented many/any long haul services at all outside of Heathrow and Prestwick !

Particular mention and call out to Singapore here . American were also a pioneer introducing the MD11 as were Delta in the day (through both have since largely fallen into the alliance consolidation previously referenced sure enough )

Using comparable Düsseldorf neither has the luxury of a resident hub and spoke carrier; through both are significant spokes in the global systems

As a commercial imperative both have and demand an equally balanced approach including delivery and management of a mixed profile of services.

And a further similarity both miss calculated the premier phase of the growth of low and flexible fare carriers; they were still in big airline mode !

Laterally both addressed that and regrettably the neighbouring small airports certainly had a temporary hit .

Just as the big airlines and alliances had a few years earlier consolidation would be the inevitable consequence especially at EasyJet and that process continues to this day.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few. I know that their are more reasons.
Brilliant point well made, 1/2 your catchment area is fish.
See also PIK vs. GLA although EDI bucks the trend by being a very strong inbound market in it's own right.
There's no reason we should think of favouring one segment at the expense of another. Outbound bucket and spade can live happily alongside rich arab playboys and Chinese students if the infrastructure was in a good enough place. Indeed the airport has a huge reliance on old school outbound short haul beach destinations.

[WHBM]

They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few.
I'll let the management at LAX know ...

[Rutan16]

I'll let the management at LAX know ...
I know you are joking but
Not even remotely comparable . Greater Los Angeles is truly massive indeed it 34,000 square miles that a third greater than the entire area of Wales and the third largest economy on the planet!
Now Southend and Leigh on Sea yeah truly comparable, oldies and white van man territory and not a few traveller and mobile home owners to boot

[pug]

They have STN/LTN One thing of interest is airports near the coast often struggle as their catchment area is half the size i:e Blackpool, Cardiff, Teesside, Humberside, Southend,
Bournemouth to name a few. I know that their are more reasons.

Depends how you are defining ‘struggle’. They are all pretty much doing well at what they do, because they weren’t built to be big airports. Problems with SEN acknowledged, but BOH seems to be doing ok. NCL and ABZ are pretty coastal.

Interestingly you neglected to mention the elephant in the room, the one which was built inland with a theoretical catchment area of 6 million people within a 60 minute drive, that has just closed after struggling for 17 years.

LPL being near the coast is likely to be busier than LBA by around 3 million passengers next year if nothing changes. LBA is nowhere near the coast.

[SWBKCB]

"It's what the north of England wants, not just Manchester and it's both."

depends where you are in the "north" - getting to Manchester Airport from the NE or even Leeds is a serious pain

Getting anywhere from the northeast is a pain! but MAN is easier than LHR, LGW, STN, LTN etc, etc

[laviation]

Potentially if you hammered it down the A1/M1 you could reach Luton faster than Manchester for one reason - the M62 !!
My last drive from Alnwick to Manchester was 6 hours because of that sodding motorway..

[SWBKCB]

Potentially if you hammered it down the A1/M1 you could reach Luton faster than Manchester for one reason - the M62 !!
My last drive from Alnwick to Manchester was 6 hours because of that sodding motorway..

You can have problems on any motorway, the A1/M1 aren't immune and there are train services from many places in the north straight into the airport.

[pug]

You can have problems on any motorway, the A1/M1 aren't immune and there are train services from many places in the north straight into the airport.

True, but the A1 and M1 compliment each other and provide choice. The fact that there is one East-West motorway connecting a combined population of not far off 10 million is pretty shocking. Soon as there is an accident/incident, of which there are sadly many, the road can be closed for hours. Whats the alternative for anyone travelling from East of the Pennines? A load of single carriageway A roads.. Then we have the trains.

I can fully understand why MAN is the major airport of the M62 corridor, but I do feel more should be done to allow us from the Eastern side of the hills to gain better access to it.

[Rutan16]

True, but the A1 and M1 compliment each other and provide choice. The fact that there is one East-West motorway connecting a combined population of not far off 10 million is pretty shocking. Soon as there is an accident/incident, of which there are sadly many, the road can be closed for hours. Whats the alternative for anyone travelling from East of the Pennines? A load of single carriageway A roads.. Then we have the trains.

I can fully understand why MAN is the major airport of the M62 corridor, but I do feel more should be done to allow us from the Eastern side of the hills to gain better access to it.

SW and Pug if i were traveling from Sunderland or Newcastle towards Manchester and Liverpool i‘d have done the East-West portion a sight further North of Ferrybridge !

As for the M62 you know one of its prime reasons to exist where it is is that its a land bridge between the Irish Sea ports and North Sea and well north of Keighley and Saddleworth there is bugger all but mountains and sheep for a hundred miles or more

[pug]

SW and Pug if i were traveling from Sunderland or Newcastle towards Manchester and Liverpool i‘d have done the East-West portion a sight further North of Ferrybridge !

As for the M62 you know one of its prime reasons to exist where it is is that its a land bridge between the Irish Sea ports and North Sea and well north of Keighley and Saddleworth there is bugger all but mountains and sheep for a hundred miles or more

I’ve drifted slightly from topic but I was more referring to the heavily populated South Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire side, which as the crow flies is around 30-odd miles from MAN but can take forever in a car. Anywhere north of Scotch Corner then there are alternatives but again they are pretty poor. Train services in my experience are shocking and take far longer than a car journey down the M62 on light traffic days. Don’t think we will ever see another East/West motorway link, hopefully some time they will provide some form of true High Speed Rail.

It’s actually quicker for me to get to STN than it is MAN from where I am and that shouldn’t be right in my view.

[FQTLSteve]

pug As far as Nottinghamshire and area is concerned they have EMA but also easily in reach with several international hub links etc. is BHX via M42/A42 which passes the airport directly and would make more sense for them IMHO.

[AlwaysWatching1]

I'm struggling as to why this has turned into an "anti Manchester" sentiment where followers of other airports seem to think that Mancunians feel they have entitlement ?

I certainly don't.

If airline A wishes to fly from airport X good luck to them, it's a commercial decision. BUT has Merseyside suddenly been identified as a brand new catchment area containing 000s of potential new travellers who have never flown before, doubtful ?

When one of your largest customers and one the of biggest airlines at Manchester creates a new base (just 21 miles away as the crow flies ), you have to look at the economic justification. I personally happen to believe that it's not market driven based on growth within Merseyside but slot availability and in turn that is down to stand capacity, at MAN ,the trouble is with no end in sight in terms of the work in progress one wonders if this is the thin edge of the wedge ? It's been said that the Manchester market is primarily old skool bucket and spade beach destinations, it's certainly a significant slug of the business so what happens if RYR, EZY, or TUI who primarily serve such markets want to expand at Manchester but feel constricted, is Liverpool now the default position ?

Another respondee suggested "where do you expect to build the stand capacity" and I agree. Manchester is now totally boxed in but who had overarching management of the masterplan ?
The same CEO has been here 10+ years. Could they not have built the transit sheds on the far side of the A538 and demolished the area known as the World freight village. Average throughput is down to 200te a day, ok its not an exact science but in context it equates to the equivalent of 4 HGVs a day.

Rutan mentioned SIA and AA, carriers that were championed by Sir Gil Thompson, he was someone who had a vision as to what Manchester could become and was not afraid to invest to make Manchester a major gateway. Of course the £1bn spend on the terminal is welcome but my point remains you have to have the supporting infrastructure to support the terminals throughput and its only my view but I feel there has been no provision to compensate for that failing whilst the work takes place.

(btw MANFAN If you are going to enter into meaningful debate with the grown ups, please ensure you get your facts right first).

[Rutan16]

I'm struggling as to why this has turned into an "anti Manchester" sentiment where followers of other airports seem to think that Mancunians feel they have entitlement ?

I certainly don't.

If airline A wishes to fly from airport X good luck to them, it's a commercial decision. BUT has Merseyside suddenly been identified as a brand new catchment area containing 000s of potential new travellers who have never flown before, doubtful ?

When one of your largest customers and one the of biggest airlines at Manchester creates a new base (just 21 miles away as the crow flies ), you have to look at the economic justification. I personally happen to believe that it's not market driven based on growth within Merseyside but slot availability and in turn that is down to stand capacity, at MAN ,the trouble is with no end in sight in terms of the work in progress one wonders if this is the thin edge of the wedge ? It's been said that the Manchester market is primarily old skool bucket and spade beach destinations, it's certainly a significant slug of the business so what happens if RYR, EZY, or TUI who primarily serve such markets want to expand at Manchester but feel constricted, is Liverpool now the default position ?

Another respondee suggested "where do you expect to build the stand capacity" and I agree. Manchester is now totally boxed in but who had overarching management of the masterplan ?
The same CEO has been here 10+ years. Could they not have built the transit sheds on the far side of the A538 and demolished the area known as the World freight village. Average throughput is down to 200te a day, ok its not an exact science but in context it equates to the equivalent of 4 HGVs a day.

Rutan mentioned SIA and AA, carriers that were championed by Sir Gil Thompson, he was someone who had a vision as to what Manchester could become and was not afraid to invest to make Manchester a major gateway. Of course the £1bn spend on the terminal is welcome but my point remains you have to have the supporting infrastructure to support the terminals throughput and its only my view but I feel there has been no provision to compensate for that failing whilst the work takes place.

(btw MANFAN If you are going to enter into meaningful debate with the grown ups, please ensure you get your facts right first).

I do understand some of your current reticence to be honest with some equally important caveats including the regrettable fact that a considerable element of the pressure from the commercial institutional investors and inevitable cost management that may have not existed in prior decades that said the last two and half years has severely impacted the finances.

The issue with concrete through was certainly discussed here and other places years ago .

What do now and when is a debate for sure that said the loss of those two carriers “may” have provided some breathing space and I suspect the relatively quiet development team are aware of this as well.

The lack of parking particularly in overnight and early morning certainly has had impacts especially pricing out all freighter services and some switch selling to East Midlands for which they have had the their knuckles slapped by regulators

Driving up capacity via larger aircraft on similar frequencies is a tried and tested philosophy in the industry (caveat BA that went in the opposite direction!)

Better management of the field operations should also increase throughput (least from the operational point of view- can’t speak for the slave drivers , sorry handlers though)

I am of the opinion 32million through the terminals should be achievable within 4 to 5 years within the current infrastructure, however above that does become an issue agreed

I don’t agree with you that the Jet2 decision is necessarily driven by constraints at Manchester but more rather level headed business decisions at HQ and their revenue bean counters market appraisals to be honest.

As another said I generally agree with sentiments and views that EasyJet will be put under pressure through that’s for another place

Off the cuff at least T2x actually opened intime and close to budget unlike a certain German airport rebuild

And finally another point on the “sharing the love” theme , as I am in Nantes right now, the French regional towns followed something similar with a million twin jet and hop flights to Orly to appease the local conseil municipal communes and floppy hatted mayors resulting a bucket load on tiny airports with millions of euro in debt.
Rather than a policy of fewer more effective larger airports across the country
The over capacity is magnified over here!

Even Nantes sort of underperforms on many levels beyond flights across the bay and to the Maghreb again another debate through

[roverman]

I'm struggling as to why this has turned into an "anti Manchester" sentiment where followers of other airports seem to think that Mancunians feel they have entitlement ?

I certainly don't.

If airline A wishes to fly from airport X good luck to them, it's a commercial decision. BUT has Merseyside suddenly been identified as a brand new catchment area containing 000s of potential new travellers who have never flown before, doubtful ?

When one of your largest customers and one the of biggest airlines at Manchester creates a new base (just 21 miles away as the crow flies ), you have to look at the economic justification. I personally happen to believe that it's not market driven based on growth within Merseyside but slot availability and in turn that is down to stand capacity, at MAN ,the trouble is with no end in sight in terms of the work in progress one wonders if this is the thin edge of the wedge ? It's been said that the Manchester market is primarily old skool bucket and spade beach destinations, it's certainly a significant slug of the business so what happens if RYR, EZY, or TUI who primarily serve such markets want to expand at Manchester but feel constricted, is Liverpool now the default position ?

Another respondee suggested "where do you expect to build the stand capacity" and I agree. Manchester is now totally boxed in but who had overarching management of the masterplan ?
The same CEO has been here 10+ years. Could they not have built the transit sheds on the far side of the A538 and demolished the area known as the World freight village. Average throughput is down to 200te a day, ok its not an exact science but in context it equates to the equivalent of 4 HGVs a day.

Rutan mentioned SIA and AA, carriers that were championed by Sir Gil Thompson, he was someone who had a vision as to what Manchester could become and was not afraid to invest to make Manchester a major gateway. Of course the £1bn spend on the terminal is welcome but my point remains you have to have the supporting infrastructure to support the terminals throughput and its only my view but I feel there has been no provision to compensate for that failing whilst the work takes place.

(btw MANFAN If you are going to enter into meaningful debate with the grown ups, please ensure you get your facts right first).

I have the greatest respect for Sir Gil Thompson and all he did for the airport and the region. However, some of the strategic master-planning decisions made on his watch are the very ones that have constrained MAN today. Siting Terminal 2 at the north-western fringe of the site, away from the runway(s) and bordered by the M56, was a mistake. It would admittedly have been more disruptive and expensive in the short term but better in the long term to have constructed new hangars and freight facilities where T2 is, and build T2 to the west and southwest of T1. The location of T2 and cargo sheds has created a huge cul-de-sac, and with the money now invested in this configuration and with the facilities which have been sold off to outside interests we're stuck with this major constraint forever.

[Suzeman]

24 planning days to prove that management at MAN can still cope with a mega-event.

The UCL airlift. ISTANBUL - too far for competition at scale from road or rail. 20,000 ticketed fans. And how many more will travel anyway?

Will MAN cope? Or will they be palming off aircraft all across the north?

An opportunity for MAG to show they've still got what it takes. Or not???

Here's a worrying development, not just for the UCL airlift, but generally

A3856/23 NOTAMN Q) EGTT/QFAXX/IV/NBO/A /000/999/5321N00217W005 A) EGCC B) 2306010000 C) PERM E) AMEND LOCAL AERODROME REGULATIONS - USE OF RUNWAYS. PARA A/ I/ TO READ: DUAL RUNWAY SEGREGATED OPERATIONS ARE NORMALLY IN FORCE DURING THE FOLLOWING PERIODS IN SUMMER: MON-SUN 0600-0800 AND 1000-1500. ALL OTHER TIMES, SINGLE RUNWAY, MIXED-MODE OPERATIONS ARE IN FORCE USING RWY 05L/23R. UK AIP EGCC AD 2.20-6 REFERS. CREATED: 19 May 2023 12:25:00

So basically dual runway ops only between 0700 and 0900 and 1100-1600 local times if I have read it correctly and note it is a permanent change, so not going to be fixed soon. Can't remember what the current times are, but this seems like a significant reduction. Maybe NATS are unable to staff the current hours reliably as we know there have been a few ATC closures for short periods at night? Or maybe something else?

I assume this has been discussed with the airline community at MAN. I would also guess they are not happy!

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

What the heck??? Is there a staffing issue - ATC or fire cover?

[AlwaysWatching1]

Well if ever there was an eye roll moment this is it.

I assume this is very much in ATCs/NATs court but why has this NOTAM been issued now ? The timing is nothing short of incredible, are they working to rule or something ?

In two weeks time Manchester will have one its of busiest days in 6 years with 000s of returning fans compressed into a much shorter window than the departure days of 9th, 10th, 11th , many will be arriving in a window that sees single runway operations.

Its a jaw dropper.

[CabinCrewe]

Im sure they’ll cope… very rarely are there taxiway queues or inbound stacking due to restricted dual runway ops. If LGW can manage…

[MANFOD]

Well if ever there was an eye roll moment this is it.

I assume this is very much in ATCs/NATs court but why has this NOTAM been issued now ? The timing is nothing short of incredible, are they working to rule or something ?

In two weeks time Manchester will have one its of busiest days in 6 years with 000s of returning fans compressed into a much shorter window than the departure days of 9th, 10th, 11th , many will be arriving in a window that sees single runway operations.

Its a jaw dropper.

Can only agree with you. (I think the departure dates are the 8th, 9th and 10th. One would assume the majority of flights will return on Sunday the 11th)

I do wonder whether this can be just an ATC issue. There are 5 different watches, each should have a complement of 9 Controllers as I understand it. I can accept a particular watch could be short staffed or even 2, but all 5? And because of minimal staffing on the nights shift, a number of Controllers 'slip' to the day shifts to supplement the busy periods. At least that's what used to happen. Maybe the airport decided it was easier to have a blanket schedule for dual ops. rather than ad hoc revisions when staff shortages occurred.

The original plan for dual runway ops for the summer as I recall was: -
Mon-Fri: 06.15 - 20.00
Sat: 06.15 - 16.00 (I think)
Not sure about Sundays but there was a break in the mornings I believe but then continued to 20.00.

Presumably there will be cost savings for MAN with NATS providing less of a service than previously agreed, and maybe with Fire cover op too..
The gap between 09.00 and 11.00 seems odd even if it is a slightly less busy period.
Can't recall the date when the original announcement was made for dual runway ops. I wonder if it's significant that there was a sizeable number of returned slots after the initial ACL report so that the airport will be less busy than perhaps originally hoped.

It is quite staggering that this is to become effective from 1st June, with only 12 days notice.

[SWBKCB]

It is quite staggering that this is to become effective from 1st June, with only 12 days notice.

Would the issuing of the Notam have been the first time those impacted would have heard of it?

[MANFOD]

Would the issuing of the Notam have been the first time those impacted would have heard of it?

Probably not. At least I hope not!
Incidentally, the new hours of dual runway ops. on weekdays is a reduction from 13 hours plus to only 7.

[laviation]

T2 did box in the airport big time.
A much better location for it would be roughly where the STS hanger lies now.
Stands close to the runways, cargo and hangar areas up where the new T2 pier is..
A little play about with Photoshop gives us a rough result of what a completed T2X would've looked like in a different position..
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/954x690/image_69134b342e6810efbcfa12a0b9a300b6662af8fe.png

[chaps1954]

Sorry but cannot see why on earth that would ever work at all, where is the overnight parking, hangars which are required ,road infrastructure,

[laviation]

Sorry but cannot see why on earth that would ever work at all, where is the overnight parking, hangars which are required ,road infrastructure,
Up the top where T2X is now ,it's a rough picture but they can fit up the top.

[chaps1954]

There are people on hear that know the ins and outs of why it was built as it is

[laviation]

Of course.. this was only a "what it would look like" post.

[MANFOD]

Of course.. this was only a "what it would look like" post.

If I understood roverman's suggestion correctly, I think T2 would have been a bit further round the curve towards the 05L end than you have it. Perhaps extending from the hangars to where the unused Premair private terminal, bizjet area, and even the RVP are. The cul de sac has certainly been a problem at times for a/c arriving into, or departing from, T2. Hopefully the dual taxiways will alleviate some of that.

[Brewster Buffalo]

I............the unused Premair private terminal............
Any plans for this? Seems never have taken off...

[laviation]

Reported on Aeroroutes: TUI to launch flights to Goa's new airport - Manohar - which was opened in December 2022.
Flights begin on 3 November 2023, services on Mondays and Fridays with 787-8.

They currently serve the older existing airport, Dabolim, on a seasonal basis. Note that this flight is currently slated as operating alongside Dabolim flights, I expect the Dabolim frequencies to be removed

[DP.]

In 2015 the North of England was promised massive expansion, a single 35m pax capacity terminal with world class facilities, including pre clearance (now dropped) notwithstanding a pandemic it's now 2023 and progress is glacial with continuing adverse effects on day to day operations and seemingly no thought for the impact this might have on airline strategic thinking nor their operations ! Well we know what Jet2 are thinking ! Who will be next ?

(NB... worth mentioning the pandemic did not affect this timeline it was touted as a min 10 year project as far back as 2015).


This is a very odd criticism. The reason for the timeline should be obvious.

If they'd have closed the existing T2 and done the renovation works to that in parallel with building the new T2 - yes, it'd have been done quicker. Likewise if they'd have built all of the new piers concurrently. Likewise if they'd have done all the airfield works in one go.

Except that none of those things were possible because they had to maintain a functioning airport with enough capacity to service existing flights. How do you propose that they could've have done that whilst closing an entire terminal and effectively the entire western apron?

[Rutan16]

https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/638162-liverpool-5-a-17.html#post11439311


Why do you want to incite personal attacks really, however lets consider the complaint (not attacking you I don't know you from Adam)

Lets consider the range of complaints about this Airport which is far from a third world experience according to many customer polls

Toilets - this was an issue in T1 sometime ago and yes the sub-contract cleaning contracts should do a much better job
Usual problem -pay and terms crap - abysmal retention rates and tendered so low a price in the first place - A UK service industry -blight - profits and naff all service delivery -not unique to MAG.
Could it be addressed sure by services quality KPIs etc……. A relatively small £40-£60K expenditure might be worth it to refresh the block.

True T1 is currently being managed on a supply and maintenance basis and no one denies the facility is time expired certainly not me not even MAG Group themselves.

External travelators - Go search this thread indeed under my name -this is something I know about directly in another life - They are obsolete , parts not available and custom units would cost a fortune and take nearly a year to produce in Shenzhen - Its been discussed extensively.

Now I will acknowledge that MAG Group really should have a proper inter terminal shuttle bus contractor in place and why they don’t is a complete mystery - Frankly its pretty cheap ( compared to the last estimate of 1.2 million for the parts excluding builders work and prelims to sort the moving walkways - That was over three years ago - Probably more I don't work with Kone anymore)

T2 is a work in progress far from complete through the cosmetic budget -Living walls massive glass ceiling lights etc were deleted on cost grounds. Additionally evidence on the Berlin fiasco influenced some changes on the fire risk and design philosophies.
If you know anything about fire glass and global production -prices have sky rocketed and delivery lead times currently 2 to 3 years for speciality material.

Security issues are largely resolved

Issue with ATC - is external work force - I am not qualified to comment directly on this other than to understand what others have said that qualified controllers are in massive demand globally and leading to some areas of specific shortages.

With two airlines that operated high frequency services now defunct daily movement remain suppressed so there may well be sufficient leeway to temporarily reduce dual runway operations in the short/medium term - Manchester carriers seem very heavily invested in peak and trough style operations to fulfil their own commercial objectives.

The priority will be getting the first wave of departures out by 9.30 latest (The returns are generally staggered depending on the destinations ) whilst equally facilitating the early morning long haul arrival pattern.

A further wave of arrivals and departures is experienced mid to late afternoon however much shorter in time frame.

So the change at the moment is I expect manageable.

Whilst there are many here and in other places with an aviation interest be that enthusiast , occasional traveller or indeed the frequent flyer that sort of loath the Shopping Mall experience, large scale public surveys contradict this individual analysis.

Indeed these facilities are considered high value and people make positive choices to use Airports WITH retail services and these regularly score highly among consumer reviews.

MAG is very well aware of the value of that customer experience -indeed they are considered a market leader around the world with an entire business department supplying consultations to a myriad of other airport operators on a global scale.

Lack of at gate facilities - Agree to a point: equally that said Pier B was designed in another life time whilst Pier C did have some in the rotunda .

The original T2 concept was based on a linear approach prior to 9/11 with a significantly lower security threshold and tolerance with all gates being contact and directly in front of the customer.
It was intentionally designed with a low dwell time kerb to gate principle in mind and it worked until government imposed border changes and differing security regulations on the industry including sterile separation of arriving and departing passengers (both having be security vetted somewhere)

This has had a detrimental effect at many UK airports and very much so here in T1 directly resulting in that up and down stairs nonsense.

As for T3 well fundamentally its an okay Terminal for its original design brief and would have also worked had we remaining within the EU free movement and low/nil travel document area, similar to T2 it was designed for the low dwell kerb to gate principle and as a mini hub for a certain airline , rather than the dozen Ryanair’s in a hour handled today.

External the myriad of taxiways and cul de sacs built out over the years certain are a night mare agreed .

However all that said something over forty airlines including leading long haul carriers from around the world continue to value Manchester sufficiently highly enough to deploy their resources here rather the competing , Hamburg, Dusseldorf , Lyon, and even Dublin* caveat the resident IAG carrier and pre-clearance advantage.

Manchester is not some Changi government funded project - Its a functional regional airport and a major spoke in the global alliances - Is far from perfect has some problems sure but third world thats a simple platitude.

[HOVIS]

Sorry pal but when a brand new pier is falling apart, systems not functioning and an apron already overcrowded because ground equipment cannot be stored under the pier, someone has screwed up. They had a clean sheet design and they've made a right mess of it!

[Rutan16]

Sorry pal but when a brand new pier is falling apart, systems not functioning and an apron already overcrowded because ground equipment cannot be stored under the pier, someone has screwed up. They had a clean sheet design and they've made a right mess of it!

Such complaint should be directed to the contractors surely if they haven’t delivered . Never said it was perfect far from it .

Whats the issue with the crypt space that something new to me .
What sort of plant is involved - flight steps , scissors , carts , push bars or are you talking about the snow co equipment that spends it time between T1 and the old T2 that sort of thing?

Claims failing apart on the pier;
How exactly sheeting loose , glazing leaking , roof leaking, steelwork corroding ,fire stopping lacking, failing ac/and fire extraction system not working (if this the license for use could be revoked by my friends and colleagues in the fire assessment industry), or something more cosmetic internally due to fit out quality issues that can be addressed under the retention of sub-contractors monies oweing perhaps.

Storage never existing under T1 as far as I remember caveat the road that went right in front and under of the original terminal facade decades ago.

Again whilst signed off it’s not complete and very much still within the snagging and retention period. If some of those issues are as you describe there will be a significant lump of money they’re yet to be paid

Just interested to understand the reasoning behind such a statement..

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The original T2 concept was based on a linear approach prior to 9/11 with a significantly lower security threshold and tolerance with all gates being contact and directly in front of the customer.
It was intentionally designed with a low dwell time kerb to gate principle in mind and it worked until government imposed border changes and differing security regulations on the industry including sterile separation of arriving and departing passengers (both having be security vetted somewhere)
This has had a detrimental effect at many UK airports and very much so here in T1 directly resulting in that up and down stairs nonsense.
Some good points!
That particular government edict also screwed the original North Terminal Pier 5 layout on opening as it was not fit for purpose right at the start, the following new build, Pier 4 was built to have arrivals and departures on seperate floors and Pier 5 only got this under GIP ownership about a decade ago, some 30 years after opening. When did these regulations actually come in? Can anyone remember? T2 opened in 1993 some 5 years after LGW North.
Hindsight is 20/20 but in those days at the end of the last century, no one took Ryanair seriously or thought easyJet would last. And of course, BA would never leave! MAN had a long haul portfolio which was impacted by the coming of the cartels, er I mean "alliances" meaning carriers no longer had to fly their own long haul metal into T2 but they could codeshare with a short haul feeder....

[SWBKCB]

The latest update posted on the official Manchester Airport Twitter account said: "The power outage that affected Terminal 3 shortly before 8am has been resolved and we are working to return services to normal. We are aware this means some passengers are facing long waiting times than usual as our airlines recover their check-in processes and we apologise or any inconvenience. Passengers are advised to check with their airline for the most up-to-date flight information."

MEN - 'Absolute chaos at Manchester Airport - just seen my Ryanair flight fly over my head as I'm queuing outside' (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-ryanair-power-cut-26981684)

[SWBKCB]

including sterile separation of arriving and departing passengers

Hmm - I was taught that keeping arriving and departing passengers seperate was best practice a couple of decades before 9/11

Such complaint should be directed to the contractors surely if they haven’t delivered .

Who's been monitoring progress and signed it off? Easy to blame contractors but who are they working for?

[Rutan16]

Hmm - I was taught that keeping arriving and departing passengers seperate was best practice a couple of decades before 9/11

True the security made such recommendations however generally existing infrastructure would have be largely exempted .That said if we look at pier B the cross flows were largely within the pier itself and traffic flows a magnitude smaller by comparison to today.

In addition to the tragic impact of 9/11 on the world, some of the UK border sterile environment was due to remaining outside Schengen -a purely political decision resulting the strengthening and sterile requirements .

Who's been monitoring progress and signed it off? Easy to blame contractors but who are they working for?

Laing O Roarke -MC
Pacal and Watson - Architect

not sure of the H&S consultants maybe MACE

Are the prime companies .

Laing O’Rourke will have signed off to MAG at Practical Completion and will by now have be paid at least 95%
Sub contractors should have received 97.5% by now

In some cases Laing may have hold of performance bonds and or PCGs in addition to the retentions.

It is certain Laing will have significant financial sway over the snagging programme.

However other than emergency work I doubt MAG are going to allow/make access easy over the next three months

[HOVIS]

Short answer for the woes of the new pier. Apparently, to save money they didn't fit a sprinkler system, which means they are not allowed to store vehicles underneath. No parking. They can't even keep baggage trollies under there. As for getting the contractors to fix the faults. Ha! What a laugh. You ring the number to report a snag, it gets looked at weeks later, then within a few days breaks again. It's cheap and nasty.

[pwalhx]

Attended an event this afternoon, not much concrete to report.

New services - expect an announcement in the next couple of weeks (no indication on what)
X Ray equipment, first of the new scanners start arriving in September in T2 then following in lots of two, all training complete and fully operational for next summer.
T3 will be dedicated to Ryanair once T2 is completed.
U.S flights, working on them, hurdles are the exchange rate, lack of aircraft and lack of pilots - demand is not an issue.
Need to encourage more inbound traffic currently 15% inbound and 85% of traffic UK originating.
Marketing Manchester working with the Welsh Govt and Aer Lingus to market Manchester as gateway to Wales using New York flights, Aer Lingus looking at a long term partnership with Manchester (portent to future growth maybe?)

[laviation]

Attended an event this afternoon, not much concrete to report.

New services - expect an announcement in the next couple of weeks (no indication on what)
X Ray equipment, first of the new scanners start arriving in September in T2 then following in lots of two, all training complete and fully operational for next summer.
T3 will be dedicated to Ryanair once T2 is completed.
U.S flights, working on them, hurdles are the exchange rate, lack of aircraft and lack of pilots - demand is not an issue.
Need to encourage more inbound traffic currently 15% inbound and 85% of traffic UK originating.
Marketing Manchester working with the Welsh Govt and Aer Lingus to market Manchester as gateway to Wales using New York flights, Aer Lingus looking at a long term partnership with Manchester (portent to future growth maybe?)

Ideally this could be Air India for a Winter 23 start. I believe their reason for cancelling slots for this summer was down to aircraft shortages.
We have Egyptair returning for Summer 2023 and that is it for new carriers. It would be very nice to see Etihad restore their 2nd daily service too.
US flights, once again, lack of aircraft. Certainly for Virgin.
United not resuming EWR in Summer 2023 was not down to "Manchester being bad" it was simply UA opting to chase leisure markets, I mean they've got Tenerife, Palma de Mallorca, Dubrovnik and Malaga added in the past two years. Summer 2024 I am 90% sure that UA will make the anticipated return.

Edit: Looks like we are only a few weeks away until the ACL Winter 2023 reports. Let's hope this Air India rumour comes to fruition.. if not this winter, it will be in 2024. MAN is next on the list for AI in Europe.

[Rutan16]

Short answer for the woes of the new pier. Apparently, to save money they didn't fit a sprinkler system, which means they are not allowed to store vehicles underneath. No parking. They can't even keep baggage trollies under there. As for getting the contractors to fix the faults. Ha! What a laugh. You ring the number to report a snag, it gets looked at weeks later, then within a few days breaks again. It's cheap and nasty.

Thanks Hovis that’s an important piece of information re sprinklers and fire containment.
Certainly a major issue and seriously expensive to resolve as retro fit.

Why the design team allowed this to be deleted is a serious concern -probably didn’t even tell MAG of the implications..

I will make some quiet calls when back in the UK . Not that I can do anything but I do know people in that frame of work and it would be interesting to find out a little more.

As for the snagging yes can be a pain in the butt to get answers and indeed the attention of the compliance people that’s an industry wide problem.

So what is in the crypt ?

[SWBKCB]

U.S flights, working on them, hurdles are the exchange rate, lack of aircraft and lack of pilots - demand is not an issue.


United not resuming EWR in Summer 2023 was not down to "Manchester being bad" it was simply UA opting to chase leisure markets, I mean they've got Tenerife, Palma de Mallorca, Dubrovnik and Malaga added in the past two years. Summer 2024 I am 90% sure that UA will make the anticipated return.

Somebody needs to give their head a shake - nothing wrong with Manchester, we can just make more money elsewhere.... :rolleyes:

[Mr A Tis]

If T3 is ultimately being handed over to Ryanair, what’s the plan for domestics? , or are MAG hoping they will just disappear as an inconvenience?

[planedrive]

As far as I'm aware, the new pier will have gates that are capable of domestic or international arrivals.

[Mr Mac]

Mr A Tis
Maybe given the glacial progress on T2 they are hoping for HS2 to have reached Manchester in time for its completion ;)

Cheers
Mr Mac

[laviation]

Rumours that a new route to the US will be announced in the coming weeks. My initial thought is either Aer Lingus to Chicago or Virgin back on Las Vegas, as was heavily rumoured for S22..

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Either would be really good news.

I see from Sean M on twitter that Egyptair now have approval to reinstatement their CAI-MAN service from 15th July, daily except Monday & Wednesday.

[laviation]

Either would be really good news.

I see from Sean M on twitter that Egyptair now have approval to reinstatement their CAI-MAN service from 15th July, daily except Monday & Wednesday.

It's hard to decide which one would be better in this current moment.

EI to Chicago, with the new AA-EI codeshare it offers a world of connections into the US. JFK is quite weak in terms of AA and you will often find yourself flying with BA to DFW or PHL if you want to connect.
VS to Las Vegas, a route long sought after. This could also be the final push for Virgin to actually go ahead with their plans for a Clubhouse at T2.

Other possibilities could be Boston, either EIUK or VS.. Assumedly this new route would be for Winter 23, however in the case of Summer 2024 well an American return to PHL would be most welcome! UA always announce their new summer routes in October so EWR is ruled out for now. EIUK going to the West Coast is something that can't be ignored either. VS to LAX instead of LAS too.

[Una Due Tfc]

EI's final A330 in storage (EI-GEY) flew from Nimes to Bordeaux for heavy maintenance yesterday in advance of a return to service, so there is now an A330 unaccounted for in the schedule every day. Apparently the plan is to have a spare A330 sitting around in DUB to cover for shortages. That's very unlike EI! It does give them an extra widebody to play with in the winter when there's more slack in the schedule.....

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Rumours that a new route to the US will be announced in the coming weeks. My initial thought is either Aer Lingus to Chicago or Virgin back on Las Vegas, as was heavily rumoured for S22..
It's LAX_LHR isn't it?
Er I mean MAN-LAS 😂

[double_barrel]

I have to say it again - security at Manchester is the most obstructive and unhelpful of any airport I have experienced - and I have experienced a few! My wife and 18 month old baby just went out through T2, it took them 45 minutes to get airside - and that's just 'contact time' with the security team; they used fast track and had essentially no queuing time. Scanning, rescanning, swabbing, re-swabbing, hanging around for re-screening, the baby's (OTC) allergy meds were not allowed through as there was no prescription! I really must say, security at Manchester is always an unpleasant experience. I suppose their hyper vigilance may be viewed as commendable, but every other airport we have used has been a much more pleasant experience.

[Mr A Tis]

I have to say it again - security at Manchester is the most obstructive and unhelpful of any airport I have experienced - and I have experienced a few! My wife and 18 month old baby just went out through T2, it took them 45 minutes to get airside - and that's just 'contact time' with the security team; they used fast track and had essentially no queuing time. Scanning, rescanning, swabbing, re-swabbing, hanging around for re-screening, the baby's (OTC) allergy meds were not allowed through as there was no prescription! I really must say, security at Manchester is always an unpleasant experience. I suppose their hyper vigilance may be viewed as commendable, but every other airport we have used has been a much more pleasant experience.

See my post #2473, even an umbrella can get you stopped at MAN !

[UnderASouthernSky]

I have to say it again - security at Manchester is the most obstructive and unhelpful of any airport I have experienced - and I have experienced a few! My wife and 18 month old baby just went out through T2, it took them 45 minutes to get airside - and that's just 'contact time' with the security team; they used fast track and had essentially no queuing time. Scanning, rescanning, swabbing, re-swabbing, hanging around for re-screening, the baby's (OTC) allergy meds were not allowed through as there was no prescription! I really must say, security at Manchester is always an unpleasant experience. I suppose their hyper vigilance may be viewed as commendable, but every other airport we have used has been a much more pleasant experience.

Do other UK airports request that liquid medication is accompanied by a prescription, or just MAN? We all know the dangers of popping it in your hold luggage (if you're carrying any).

[FQTLSteve]

I can only refer to recent use (since Covid) of BHX and CWL and I haven't had any problem with liquid medication, and for that matter not pre-Covid either.

[double_barrel]

I can only refer to recent use (since Covid) of BHX and CWL and I haven't had any problem with liquid medication, and for that matter not pre-Covid either.

Yea, we've never had problems before. And it could have been problematic as they were joining a longhaul flight in AMS, so the child was without her meds for more than 12 hours.

And I'm flying out from MAN T1 with EK tomorrow. I want to take a replacement NIMH battery for a drill. I know it's permitted by EK*, but the rules say it must be in hand luggage and not in the hold and I have no faith that Manchester security will allow it. I'm seriously considering switching from MAN as my usual route into the UK.

*https://www.emirates.com/uk/english/before-you-fly/travel/dangerous-goods-policy/

[andy mach 1]

https://www.gov.uk/hand-luggage-restrictions/essential-medicines-and-medical-equipment&ved=2ahUKEwjDqPvAtJb_AhXKWMAKHeJAD4wQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2_cfKA9JK8ktcptrDT-zDc


If you are taking more than 10than you need doctors letter or a copy of the prescription, so it seems they are only following UK government

[Suzeman]

The original T2 concept was based on a linear approach prior to 9/11 with a significantly lower security threshold and tolerance with all gates being contact and directly in front of the customer.
It was intentionally designed with a low dwell time kerb to gate principle in mind and it worked until government imposed border changes and differing security regulations on the industry including sterile separation of arriving and departing passengers (both having be security vetted somewhere)

The original T2 was linear but also had remote gates opposite. The original intention was to eventually build another small pier in the grass island opposite - there was a considerable debate whether to build a subway under the apron for this as part of the original design to minimise apron disruption and activate it when this pier was built. In the end the cost was high and it wasn't built - a sensible decision especially in the light of hindsight.

T2 was built from day one on the principle of segregating inbound and outbound passengers. One of the very first meetings during the design phase was with the DfT who made it quite clear that they would not certificate the terminal if this principle wasn't adopted. This was achieved by having departures above arrivals and passengers never had to go up, it was always down for the normal flow. Of course this principle was abandoned in legacy T2 some while ago for departures. In addition, the idea of having one large departure concourse airside meant that most passengers could remain in this area for a while and spend money....

There was a change to the design of T2 security at a late stage. This was down to the requirement to incorporate hold baggage screening after Lockerbie. There was quite a cost for that which the Airport had to pick up. It was an interesting meeting, that one.

Meanwhile existing facilities at UK airports were able to take advantage of their grandfathered status of allowing the mixing of inbound and outbound passengers. That ended abruptly after 9/11 and the timescales for making alterations was very short, hence the arrangements that now exist in T1.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Thank you Suzeman for sharing your experience on the design of T2 and the rationale behind how we find it today.

I do feel that there are possibly many members of this forum who are too young to know how things have developed over the decades! I know that you and I are of a similar age and indeed have, previously, shared many a time reminiscing - when we were working - about the airport, its structure and development of new services.

[laviation]

Aeroroutes: Emirates pull the A380 from the daily morning flight, from July 1, 2023 until September 30, 2023 when assumedly the A380 returns on the morning flight.
This leaves:
EK21/22 - 0745/0950 - daily 2 class 777-300ER
EK17/18 - 1200/1405 - daily A380-800
EK19/20 - 1915/2115 - daily A380-800

[Tight Seat]

EK morning flight to 777, could this be making way for the much talked about DXB-MAN-EWR rotation? With a future upscale 4th flight from DXB starting soon? ( well it is a rumour site!)

[laviation]

EK morning flight to 777, could this be making way for the much talked about DXB-MAN-EWR rotation? With a future upscale 4th flight from DXB starting soon? ( well it is a rumour site!)
Currently the aircraft change is only until 30SEP2023, perhaps the EWR would slot in between the morning frequency and the afternoon one.
For example, could be:
DXB 04:00 - MAN 09:25, MAN 11:00 - EWR 12:45, EWR 17:45 - MAN 05:15, MAN 07:15 - DXB 18:15

[easyflyer83]

Isn’t this just a down gauge to take account of the fact that pax numbers tend to drop on the route during the summer?

[VickersVicount]

Isn’t this just a down gauge to take account of the fact that pax numbers tend to drop on the route during the summer?
If well recognised pattern, why have they opted to change planned schedule mid season? (was planned 3x day A380 until now)

[BHX5DME]

If well recognised pattern, why have they opted to change planned schedule mid season? (was planned 3x day A380 until now)
They may need a HD A388 for BHX from 1st July - bit of a considence

[easyflyer83]

If well recognised pattern, why have they opted to change planned schedule mid season? (was planned 3x day A380 until now)

Because I believe the numbers for DXB tend to drop during July and August. DXB and the Middle East gets unbearable, India has monsoon season, same with much of South East Asia that has its rainy season and then you have Oz and the southern hemisphere in the middle of winter.

[OltonPete]

Because I believe the numbers for DXB tend to drop during July and August. DXB and the Middle East gets unbearable, India has monsoon season, same with much of South East Asia that has its rainy season and then you have Oz and the southern hemisphere in the middle of winter.

Wrong months I'm afraid. It is May and June that suffer greatly although correct about the Dubai weather in July & August. I was barely able to move out of the hotel pool in the day with temperatures 45c every day when I was there in July 2018 :ouch:. I did know before I went it was going to be hot.

Alas the English school holidays seem to fuel the service in July and August irrespective of weather down route

Source CAA - 2019 latest year without COVID effects

DUBAI - May 2019 57433 (2 per day) - June 73880 (68% approx) July 92792 & August 99791(92% approx) . Note May was only twice daily but 67041 the year before.

Worth noting that May and possibly the first week of June were probably affected by reduced travel due Ramadan but you can clearly see the difference.

Even 2022 shows the difference although just 2 daily

May 51251 (73%) June 50797, July 64398, August 65612 (93%)

It could be for the BHX service although of course the times don't match but I doubt it would be load related in July and August as MAN would normally fill the original flights easily. However If there is a stored aircraft running late for re-entry back into service, then I would suggest delaying BHX would not be a good idea with Saudi and Qatar starting/restarting in the same week as the A380 which will no doubt generate some decent publicity for them both and I doubt Emirates would want to be seen backtracking on the A380 in the very same week.

Just my thoughts

Pete

[laviation]

New long haul route announcement tomorrow. I’m stuck between VS to LAS, EI to ORD or AI to DEL!

Still, could be something rather insignificant such as a new 1-2x per week Caribbean route on TUI

[tokyostich]

FR are due to announce a new route for W23 to PDV (Plovdiv, Bulgaria) it will be 1 time weekly (Monday) for the next three winters. This will be their first flight to Bulgaria from MAN, they already fly SOF from LPL twice weekly.

[laviation]

Always good to see a new destination checked off the list

[Danny G]

New long haul route announcement tomorrow. I’m stuck between VS to LAS, EI to ORD or AI to DEL!

Still, could be something rather insignificant such as a new 1-2x per week Caribbean route on TUI

Could do with a new airline on the Cancun route ,TUI have a monopoly on it at the moment

[galgurl]

Possibly MAN-BKK with VS

[GayFriendly]

All 3 suggested l/h route announcements are credible, I'm going with AI to DEL, AI are very much in expansion mode and India as a country must be one of the biggest holes in terms of pax volume in the MAN l/h portfolio, not to mention the fact that AI offer many connections via DEL to destinations in India and further afield

[laviation]

95% sure now it's LAS. Supposedly it's Virgin announcing some new routes tomorrow.. if we're lucky you think we might snag an extra based aircraft?

[gazza007]

I was advised last year that VS always planned to reintroduce LAS & LAX in 2023 when themselves and MAN were operationally capable of doing so.

Same with AA who will reintroduce PHL 734/5 once they have their A321XLR’s

[azz767]

SPD Travels on Twitter who’s always reliable has suggested LAS, so it must be VS

[laviation]

Really encouraging to see Virgin return back to growth out of MAN. LAS is a few hours’ drive from the West Coast so I’ll count it as that :ok:

Next on the wish list for Virgin is LAX. Boston can be served with Delta like they planned in S20.

Delhi and Mumbai will definitely be served by Air India in the next couple of seasons so it would be interesting if they give those two a try again

They’re in Skyteam now. Could we perhaps even see PVG should they chose to base a 787 here? I wish. Hong Kong is out of the question as CX have a firm hand on that route and they don’t even serve HKG from LHR anymore.

At the end of the day, Virgin growing their hub out of MAN is vastly better for the airport than getting US carriers back!

[BHX5DME]

Credit - TTG

Ethiopian Airlines is preparing to extend its schedule at Manchester airport.

Ethiopian will operate the route using an Airbus A350 (https://d2osdnqd2igqfx.cloudfront.net/AcuCustom/Sitename/DAM/100/8-EthiopianA350.jpg)

The carrier will shortly offer an additional Addis Ababa frequency, growing its service to five flights a week.

Starting Monday (5 June), the route will increase to five-times-weekly.

Ethiopian will operate the route on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays, via Geneva, using an Airbus A350 aircraft.

More than 60 onward connections are available from Ethiopian Airlines’ hub in the country’s capital.

Henock Woubishet, Ethiopian’s area manager UK and Ireland, said the expanded service came in response to growing demand from people in the north for travel to sub-Saharan Africa.

Timothy Bettney, Ethiopian’s traffic and sales manager, added this demand was coming from both leisure and corporate travellers.


Flights depart Manchester at 6.30pm, arriving Geneva at 9.15pm before departing for Addis Ababa at 10.15pm, arriving 5.55am (+1).

[laviation]

395 seater A350-1000XWB to replace 777-300ER on Qatar's afternoon frequency during the winter months. Think it is a matter of time now until they get to 21x weekly.. we're currently at 18 rising to 19 next year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the A35K is slightly more capacity than the 77W currently on the afternoon flight. Small upgauge but every little helps.

[roverman]

395 seater A350-1000XWB to replace 777-300ER on Qatar's afternoon frequency during the winter months. Think it is a matter of time now until they get to 21x weekly.. we're currently at 18 rising to 19 next year.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the A35K is slightly more capacity than the 77W currently on the afternoon flight. Small upgauge but every little helps.
It's actually a small reduction in seats. B777-300 used on MAN is a two-class 412 seat layout.

[laviation]

Confirmation:
Virgin to launch MAN-LAS from June 2024.
3x weekly A350-1000, summer seasonal.
Would've been nice to see year-round, they've been held hostage with aircraft and pilot shortages. Time will tell if it's converted to year round..
Thanks to SeanM1997 for the info

[MANFOD]

Confirmation:
Virgin to launch MAN-LAS from June 2024.
3x weekly A350-1000, summer seasonal.
Would've been nice to see year-round, they've been held hostage with aircraft and pilot shortages. Time will tell if it's converted to year round..
Thanks to SeanM1997 for the info

And from MAN's media centre: -

https://mediacentre.manchesterairport.co.uk/direct-flights-from-manchester-to-the-us-west-coast-return-as-virgin-atlantic-announces-las-vegas-route/

[roverman]

Good to see Las Vegas back, I have been surprised by its absence post-Covid. Despite the noble words from various dignitaries in the press piece, I'm under no illusions what the market for this route is. UK-originating tourists visiting Las Vegas itself, the Hoover Dam, Grand Canyon etc. The flights will not serve many, if any, business travellers, and will not be full of Nevada residents keen to see the English Lake District or even Stalyvegas. A welcome return, nonetheless but I'll be more excited when we see service to major hubs like Chicago, Dallas, as well as the real west coast i.e. LAX and SFO.

[laviation]

DFW would be the dream route for me. No more LHR! :p

[bar none]

If the European trend to ban certain short haul flights progresses and catches on then the new long haul routes ex Man will come thick and fast

[laviation]

Positive rhetoric from Ethiopian about their Manchester route.. I think an upgauge to daily flights may be on the cards for next summer

[AvGeek1]

Just throwing it out there, but do you think Virgin could serve DXB from MAN? Could be seasonal or year round, but I think the point to point demand from the UK to the UAE has grown significantly and could be a viable service maybe thrice weekly and offering Virgin Holidays, similar to the reinstated Heathrow service.

I can see Los Angeles coming back, but can’t see any other US destinations that Virgin would be desperate to start from MAN.

PVG is an interesting one, could tie in with China Eastern in the alliance.

[laviation]

Just throwing it out there, but do you think Virgin could serve DXB from MAN? Could be seasonal or year round, but I think the point to point demand from the UK to the UAE has grown significantly and could be a viable service maybe thrice weekly and offering Virgin Holidays, similar to the reinstated Heathrow service.

I think there's maybe the market for that, especially in Cheshire. In terms of DXB connections I believe the vast majority carry on to India/Pakistan and Australia. It would be interesting for VS to try MAN-DXB but I think there are 5-10 unserved destinations that VS would rather give a go. CPT is one that could come in the next years

[Una Due Tfc]

Loganair today announced codeshares with EI in both DUB & MAN.

https://www.loganair.co.uk/our-story/latest-news/2023/local-to-global-connectivity-increased-as-loganair-partners-with-aer-lingus/

[Mr Mac]

DFW would be the dream route for me. No more LHR! :p
laviation
Try Singapore through Houston from Manchester as you avoid LHR and Singapore are an excellent carrier and Houston is not a bad entry point to the empire 🙂

Cheers
Mr Mac

[HOVIS]

If the European trend to ban certain short haul flights progresses and catches on then the new long haul routes ex Man will come thick and fast
There has to be an alternative available first. Don't hold your breath, HS2 is dead.

[laviation]

laviation
Try Singapore through Houston from Manchester as you avoid LHR and Singapore are an excellent carrier and Houston is not a bad entry point to the empire 🙂

Cheers
Mr Mac

Aye. Flown through IAH with BA a couple of times - always been a swift transit through. Problem is United don't codeshare with Singapore on this route for some unkown reason...

[DP.]

Good to see Las Vegas back, I have been surprised by its absence post-Covid.

I suspect the cost has been a significant factor. Vegas has become a pretty expensive destination - and even more so for Brits with the exchange rate situation last year. I can attest from previous visits pre-pandemic that it's been getting gradually more expensive for a while now, but from talking to a couple of American friends, it's really accelerated with the pandemic.

[laviation]

Winter 2023 reports coming out in the next few days, so here are some (wishful) predictions

- Air India to BOM/DEL like the S23 slots they had
- SPD Travels on Twitter hinted at a new carrier base at MAN, my initial thought is Wizz or BA Euroflyer.. both would be good however Norse would force EI out and then go bust
- Ryanair to Plovdiv, as tokyostich stated the other day
- Air Transat upgauge YYZ-MAN to daily from x4 weekly, with A321
- A sprinkling of new easyJet routes and maybe one or two extra TUI ones as well
- Very wishful this one, but someone launching PVG-MAN. May it be Juneyao or Air China.
- On China, Hainan putting PEK back to daily would be great too..

[laviation]

Looks like Air India has come to fruition. 4x weekly to BOM with 787-8.

Cathay also increasing to daily

The new based carrier is Norse. Daily flights to one destination initially. I would like to see MIA over JFK

[BHX5DME]

[QUOTE=laviation;11444838]Looks like Air India has come to fruition. 4x weekly to BOM with 787-8.

Air India currently is only a slot application which it has had in place for while !

I think it will come to fruition but not sure when ?

They have promised BHX at BOM service for a while too.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The new based carrier is Norse. Daily flights to one destination initially. I would like to see MIA over JFK

Norse have announced MAN? Is there a link?

[BA318]

Norse have announced MAN? Is there a link?

It’s not confirmed. They have applied for slots. Whether they launch is another question.

[pamann]

It’s not confirmed. They have applied for slots. Whether they launch is another question.

Whether they’re still around to launch is another question.

[Rutan16]

Aye. Flown through IAH with BA a couple of times - always been a swift transit through. Problem is United don't codeshare with Singapore on this route for some unkown reason...

Not unknown more simply they can not under fifth freedom rules.

They can however codeshare Houston - Singapore

Indeed Singapore put their code an several domestic routes beyond Houston

They can however interline.

[MANFOD]

[QUOTE=laviation;11444838]Looks like Air India has come to fruition. 4x weekly to BOM with 787-8.

Air India currently is only a slot application which it has had in place for while !

I think it will come to fruition but not sure when ?

They have promised BHX at BOM service for a while too.

Yes, Air India initially had slots for 4 x BOM & 3 x DEL for S23 at MAN.. Let's hope the BOM slots are activated this time although I wouldn't be too surprised if it won't be until S24 at the earliest. As a personal preference, it's a pity Virgin were never in a position to start the planned India services from MAN. However, AI is a Star Alliance partner so maybe something could be developed from that in terms of possible TATL connections, although I note Air India have been allocated T1 if they do start.

[laviation]

Obviously a 10+ aircraft strong Virgin base would be vastly better than an array of carriers from around the world.
Now VS are in Skyteam the connection opportunities are well and truly there, they already serve ATL.

[double_barrel]

Yea, we've never had problems before. And it could have been problematic as they were joining a longhaul flight in AMS, so the child was without her meds for more than 12 hours.

And I'm flying out from MAN T1 with EK tomorrow. I want to take a replacement NIMH battery for a drill. I know it's permitted by EK*, but the rules say it must be in hand luggage and not in the hold and I have no faith that Manchester security will allow it. I'm seriously considering switching from MAN as my usual route into the UK.

*https://www.emirates.com/uk/english/before-you-fly/travel/dangerous-goods-policy/



Update in case anyone is interested. Security in T1 paid no attention whatsoever to the 65Wh NiMH battery which I drew their attention to. They should have confirmed that it had an acceptable capacity, there was no way to tell that from the glance at the outer packing and pass through the x-ray that it got. They were however fascinated by an unopened pack of chai late powder recently bought in Tesco. So, once again, I was delayed while they examined it minutely, questioned me on where it cane from, swabbed it and rescanned it. I am a very frequent traveller. With all due modesty, I'm pretty slick at presenting myself and my carry-on for security, and it is no exaggeration to say that I am never stopped for re-checking at security in any other airport.

[lfc84]

Update in case anyone is interested. Security in T1 paid no attention whatsoever to the 65Wh NiMH battery which I drew their attention to. They should have confirmed that it had an acceptable capacity, there was no way to tell that from the glance at the outer packing and pass through the x-ray that it got. They were however fascinated by an unopened pack of chai late powder recently bought in Tesco. So, once again, I was delayed while they examined it minutely, questioned me on where it cane from, swabbed it and rescanned it. I am a very frequent traveller. With all due modesty, I'm pretty slick at presenting myself and my carry-on for security, and it is no exaggeration to say that I am never stopped for re-checking at security in any other airport.
It's stories like this that reaffirm my decision to avoid Manchester Airport following similar personal experiences

[eggc]

Norse website earlier had MAN listed as an option with JFK, LAX and BKK as destinations. It's disappeared again now though...

[laviation]

Norse website earlier had MAN listed as an option with JFK, LAX and BKK as destinations. It's disappeared again now though...

They have Winter 2023 slots for a single daily flight somewhere.. I forsee JFK for that reason, and places like LAX, MIA and BKK may follow in Summer 2024

In other news.. Virgin going to announce a further two routes (seperate from LHRDXB and MANLAS).. one of these is obviously LHR-ICN, one can dream the other is MAN-LAX !

However it will likely be GRU given LATAM's relationship with Delta

[Rutan16]

Norse website earlier had MAN listed as an option with JFK, LAX and BKK as destinations. It's disappeared again now though...

Bangkok “ might” be simply a Norwegian connection via Oslo sold via the Dohop interline system .

Money would be on New York as an initial operation along with the similar and existing arrangements at Roissy, Berlin and Fiumicino.

A regular direct Bangkok would be outstanding through

[Logohu]

Norse website earlier had MAN listed as an option with JFK, LAX and BKK as destinations. It's disappeared again now though...

I doubt there's enough demand on JFK for 3 airlines, something would have to give

[laviation]

I doubt there's enough demand on JFK for 3 airlines, something would have to give

MAN-NYC had DL/VS, AA, UA, TCX on the route only a couple of years ago.. that demand has not fully subsided..

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I always thought Norwegian were an obvious long haul candidate for MAN but the (well made) objection was Thomas Cook already had a good solid operation that did well. So Norwegian II (cos we all know that's what they are) would likely do well I think, based on a good price for the local market going on holiday. I think it's a great fit, hope it happens.

[eggc]

Really unsure how accurate this is but here goes anyway....slot times are reported as 1855 outbound and 1155 inbound which is 17 hours away. Say 2 hour turnaround leaves aprox 15 hours for the return flight if my fag packet calculations and slot times are remotely correct and that is if they even actually use said slots. So where can you get to and from in 15 hours ? Rules a few possibilites out.

[CabinCrewe]

…bearing in mind TCX did so well they went bust. Perhaps marginal bargain basement leisure long haul is not where its at. Perhaps Norse are different however…

[laviation]

Really unsure how accurate this is but here goes anyway....slot times are reported as 1855 outbound and 1155 inbound which is 17 hours away. Say 2 hour turnaround leaves aprox 15 hours for the return flight if my fag packet calculations and slot times are remotely correct and that is if they even actually use said slots. So where you can you get to and from in 15 hours ? Rules a few possibilites out.

I think anywhere east and north of Washington . Norse have started all of their bases with JFK so that is the obvious candidate

[Rutan16]

Norse website earlier had MAN listed as an option with JFK, LAX and BKK as destinations. It's disappeared again now though...

Really unsure how accurate this is but here goes anyway....slot times are reported as 1855 outbound and 1155 inbound which is 17 hours away. Say 2 hour turnaround leaves aprox 15 hours for the return flight if my fag packet calculations and slot times are remotely correct and that is if they even actually use said slots. So where can you get to and from in 15 hours ? Rules a few possibilites out.

Could still be JFK with frame rotation and use of limited slots .

[Rutan16]

…bearing in mind TCX did so well they went bust. Perhaps marginal bargain basement leisure long haul is not where its at. Perhaps Norse are different however…

Thomas Cook UK went bust because of a series exceptionally poor property investments and not a little financial shenanigans of some historic proportions and that caught up with the auditors .

The airline division however was not insolvent as a stand alone business.

Only the UK airline division fell fowl of English bankruptcy rules and a government thats total uninterested in supporting industry (any !).

German and Scandinavian divisions survived whilst the tiny Spanish operation got reabsorbed into Condor.
Had it not been because of Brexit the UK arm of the airline could very well survived as a division of Condor however post “B” ownership rules made such a prospect far more difficult - A UK based majority shareholder and partner would have be required and demanded by the administrators at a no doubt premium price !

[double_barrel]

While I’m having a moan at Manchester, is there a reason that the very common soft “holdall” type bags have to be taken round to a special desk to be put into the baggage system after checkin ? This only seems to happen at Manchester, and possibly only in T1?

It’s not a huge issue, but a bit of a pain. I was recently traveling business class with my family with EK, it was a little odd - we were whisked to the terminal by a limo, whisked to the checkin line by a helpful driver, whisked through the checkin process - all very efficient. However, we were then told to put all the bags back onto the trolleys, trundle them round to the 'special' bag checkin and stand in line for a good 15 minutes for the bags to be matched with id's and boarding cards, rescanned and entered into the baggage system.

[northboy]

Could still be JFK with frame rotation and use of limited slots .
Timings would be similar to Norse’s JFK-BER vv flights

[Rutan16]

Timings would be similar to Norse’s JFK-BER vv flights

Exactly !

[laviation]

The first destination will be JFK. Norse have started all of their bases from the initial JFK service. I expect to see BKK from them in Summer 2024, lest not forget Thai also want to start MAN-BKK

I do hope that Norse invest in some long range narrow bodies, this would allow for the launch of some of Norwegian’s destinations they served from Edinburgh in 2017 ish.

Providence, Hartford, potentially HPN, and Manchester-New Hampshire for good measure !

[Rutan16]

Bangkok is not a summer vacation destination even from Scandinavia to be honest . Much more a December through April peak

When Thai land on the concrete and at least serval times in succession I’ll change my mind on them . Twenty years at least they been just round the corner “next season” sort of thing !

[mufc4evr]

Wrong months I'm afraid. It is May and June that suffer greatly although correct about the Dubai weather in July & August. I was barely able to move out of the hotel pool in the day with temperatures 45c every day when I was there in July 2018 :ouch:. I did know before I went it was going to be hot.

Alas the English school holidays seem to fuel the service in July and August irrespective of weather down route

Source CAA - 2019 latest year without COVID effects

DUBAI - May 2019 57433 (2 per day) - June 73880 (68% approx) July 92792 & August 99791(92% approx) . Note May was only twice daily but 67041 the year before.

Worth noting that May and possibly the first week of June were probably affected by reduced travel due Ramadan but you can clearly see the difference.

Even 2022 shows the difference although just 2 daily

May 51251 (73%) June 50797, July 64398, August 65612 (93%)

It could be for the BHX service although of course the times don't match but I doubt it would be load related in July and August as MAN would normally fill the original flights easily. However If there is a stored aircraft running late for re-entry back into service, then I would suggest delaying BHX would not be a good idea with Saudi and Qatar starting/restarting in the same week as the A380 which will no doubt generate some decent publicity for them both and I doubt Emirates would want to be seen backtracking on the A380 in the very same week.

Just my thoughts

Pete

it's due to 380 maintenance. A lot of routes are changing aircraft type because of it, be it 380 to 777 or subtype to subtype

[laviation]

I wonder if Qantas would ever look at launching SYD-MAN once Project Sunrise gets going
After the obvious Melbourne, Adelaide, Sydney, Brisbane and maybe even Canberra to Heathrow..
Emirates always do well with UK-AUS connections.
The VFR market has huge potential for a direct link - over a million British expats in Oz as well as the 10 million + with English ancestry !
However, if we look at Qantas through the lens of American Airlines, you can just fly to Heathrow and connect from there. Hopefully they don't have such an attitude like that

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The first destination will be JFK. Norse have started all of their bases from the initial JFK service.
I do hope that Norse invest in some long range narrow bodies, this would allow for the launch of some of Norwegian’s destinations they served from Edinburgh in 2017 ish.
Providence, Hartford, potentially HPN, and Manchester-New Hampshire for good measure !
This is fantasy land mate. It's just your own spotting wishlist.

[laviation]

This is fantasy land mate. It's just your own spotting wishlist.

These are destinations that were served by Norwegian from much smaller markets than MAN
I don't want Norse at Manchester as they could force out EIUK and then go bust leaving us back in 2021 again ..
But you do you I guess!

[Vokes55]

These are destinations that were served by Norwegian from much smaller markets than MAN
I don't want Norse at Manchester as they could force out EIUK and then go bust leaving us back in 2021 again ..
But you do you I guess!

They’ll definitely go bust if they start flying anywhere on your fantasy list.

Aer Lingus U.K. is nothing more than a Virgin spoiler. They’re only going to fly routes that Virgin (or Norse) fly.

[laviation]

Aer Lingus U.K. is nothing more than a Virgin spoiler. They’re only going to fly routes that Virgin (or Norse) fly.
EIUK keep Virgin in check and offer a cheaper alternative

While certainly all of those destinations I listed together are a fantasy, one of them on their own wouldn’t do half bad. If I recall correctly Thomas Cook planned to do Providence in 2016. PVD 2-3 a week on an A321 isn’t going to hurt anyone !

Now Norse’s business plan is more Norwegian out of Gatwick than Norwegian out of Edinburgh. Of course they won’t do that sort of thing.. only complicates the fleet. If VS and EUK continue to stagnate they are very much welcome to fly wherever they please but they are not a long term solution to the network holes I am afraid

[Mr Mac]

What is the new issue with parking in Manchester ? You used to pre book, drop your car in multi-story, and off you go for however long, but now limited to 7 days. Mrs Mac informs me you now have to leave your car in the hands of another driver/ meet and greet . I am not sure I would be happy handing over keys to potentially an unknown entity, of a vehicle which maybe worth 2-3 times their per annum income. Seems a little bizarre.

When I am away in Germany I generally take tram from Manchester office, or drive from home but not normally away for longer than 7 days, and on longer trip’s depending on carrier there is Limo pick up, or I get a driver from home, and even occasionally take the train . The latter I have done twice, but it didn’t end well, so generally go Limo route. However Mrs Mac was told she has to do Meet and greet. Well that is another nail in the Manchester coffin for her, as she is quite fond of her car, and doesn’t want an unknown person driving it off, and will now use Leeds or Liverpool on short haul, when going away for longer than 7 days, and no limo available.

She does a reasonable amount of flying with perhaps 10 business trips per year, plus maybe another 3-4 holiday trips, so not your typical bucket and spade type, and I would have thought the type you want to hold onto. The other thing is that one one of her girlfriends had this, and the car did circa 250 miles apparently while she was in Barbados !

Also bearing in mind she used to be on the management team of a large multinational airport group, and she thinks this is a real shot in the foot for Manchester. Anybody know why they are doing it, as you get no sense out of their web site ?

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Rutan16]

I wonder if Qantas would ever look at launching SYD-MAN once Project Sunrise gets going
After the obvious Melbourne, Adelaide, Sydney, Brisbane and maybe even Canberra to Heathrow..
Emirates always do well with UK-AUS connections.
The VFR market has huge potential for a direct link - over a million British expats in Oz as well as the 10 million + with English ancestry !
However, if we look at Qantas through the lens of American Airlines, you can just fly to Heathrow and connect from there. Hopefully they don't have such an attitude like that

You mean relaunching ?

BTW the Emirates partnership delivers more value to Qantas today that ever they made with their own metal twenty years ago !

Simple answer -no

Only three other European points form any part of the Qantas master plan. Paris, Frankfurt and either of Rome or Athens . Rome or Athens “may” follow Singapores (Scoot) and potentially deploy the (Jetstar) brand .

The proposed 350-1000 capacity is pretty much spoken for on Heathrow and JFK with just one other (either Paris or Frankfurt ).

Reality is Qantas/Jetstar and neighbours in New Zealand economic focus is on the Pacific Rim and Asia these days (UK membership of the TPTTC membership wont change that either !)

[airhumberside]

Qantas (mainline) already serve Rome seasonally, started last year

[cavokblues]

I suspect Norse will be bust way before they ever get around to burning through yet more cash on Manchester - Providence.

[Rutan16]

Qantas (mainline) already serve Rome seasonally, started last year

Yes thats why I mentioned Rome as one of the ports (through seasonal)

[CabinCrewe]

Norwegian’s destinations they served from Edinburgh in 2017 ish.
Providence, Hartford,
Weren't they a spectacular flop from the outset?

[roverman]

Just thinking, has anyone worked out the VS fleet deployment ex-MAN for Summer 2024? With the announcement of a three-weekly Las Vegas, that takes up one A351 frame for 3 days, leaving it with 4 free days, assuming it is a MAN-based unit. So unless VS drop an existing route or frequencies to make the three LAS rotations possible (or run it on a W-pattern using a London-based frame) then they have some unaccounted for A351 capacity at MAN.

[comet 4b623PW]

Just thinking, has anyone worked out the VS fleet deployment ex-MAN for Summer 2024? With the announcement of a three-weekly Las Vegas, that takes up one A351 frame for 3 days, leaving it with 4 free days, assuming it is a MAN-based unit. So unless VS drop an existing route or frequencies to make the three LAS rotations possible (or run it on a W-pattern using a London-based frame) then they have some unaccounted for A351 capacity at MAN.
Barbados is supposed to be year round so that is one possibility may be three or four a week. May be another restart destination.

[tartan 201]

Just thinking, has anyone worked out the VS fleet deployment ex-MAN for Summer 2024? With the announcement of a three-weekly Las Vegas, that takes up one A351 frame for 3 days, leaving it with 4 free days, assuming it is a MAN-based unit. So unless VS drop an existing route or frequencies to make the three LAS rotations possible (or run it on a W-pattern using a London-based frame) then they have some unaccounted for A351 capacity at MAN.

Could some of the spare capacity be used to do MAN>MCO>EDI>MCO>MAN which I think is the plan for the current summer when EDI restarts in a few weeks' time?

[comet 4b623PW]

My guess for VS ops summer 2024

1 x 330 daily JFK
1 x 330 daily ATL
1 x 350 daily MCO
1 x 350 5 weekly 2 weekly EDI to MCO
1 x 350 3 weekly LAS 4 weekly BGI

Will BFS to MCO be back ?

[laviation]

One hopes they hand ATL over to Delta which would effectively greenlight a full-A350 base (or another A330 destination, which is the better option)
JFK is A350 operated throughout July and August, I think they may make this permanent for next Summer
They could very well bring back BFS-MCO.. EDI-MCO could be slightly upgauged and switched to A330, could share an aircraft EDI/BFS (and put the MAN A350 on LAS)

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

One hopes they hand ATL over to Delta which would effectively greenlight a full-A350 base (or another A330 destination, which is the better option)
JFK is A350 operated throughout July and August, I think they may make this permanent for next Summer
They could very well bring back BFS-MCO.. EDI-MCO could be slightly upgauged and switched to A330, could share an aircraft EDI/BFS (and put the MAN A350 on LAS)
EDI-MCO is already an A350, an A330 would be a major down-guage. With the exchange rate where it is, BFS-MCO isn't low hanging fruit anymore. Given Delta gave the Atlanta route to Virgin which they really have struggled to make a success of, you might just find ATL gets dropped entirely. The costs of operating would climb if Delta came back on ATL-MAN, that's why it went to VS.

[comet 4b623PW]

VS & EI will have to be cautious on any expansion to New York if rumours circulating at present come true. Two extra flights you would imagine could do some damage to their yields.

[daz211]

They’ll definitely go bust if they start flying anywhere on your fantasy list.

Aer Lingus U.K. is nothing more than a Virgin spoiler. They’re only going to fly routes that Virgin (or Norse) fly.

Aer Lingus NEED to fully follow the OneWorld product and offer full point and miles, this will keep them as a real choice out of MAN especially on the JFK route.

[EI-BUD]

EIUK keep Virgin in check and offer a cheaper alternative

While certainly all of those destinations I listed together are a fantasy, one of them on their own wouldn’t do half bad. If I recall correctly Thomas Cook planned to do Providence in 2016. PVD 2-3 a week on an A321 isn’t going to hurt anyone !

Now Norse’s business plan is more Norwegian out of Gatwick than Norwegian out of Edinburgh. Of course they won’t do that sort of thing.. only complicates the fleet. If VS and EUK continue to stagnate they are very much welcome to fly wherever they please but they are not a long term solution to the network holes I am afraid

Amazed the word stagnate can be used in this context to describe Manchester and EI and VS. EI is very new there and created a new airline to fly these routes in a very short time. They've also increased the aircraft size for the JFK route. VS invested A350 in MAN and they will reopen new US routes. Nothing stagnating about any of this.

Based on pricing in the market there is competition and I'd bet it's no picnic for either airline particularly on MCO and to a lesser extent JFK. With that in mind, surprising that MAG would encourage Norse into that space. Like another contributor said, EIUK may not be looking long term if a raft of new completion at lower cost base comes in.

However, all that said, MAG should absolutely have an aspiration to see Norse look to TA flying from STN. That should be the goal. We shall wait and see. Feels like something is definitely cooking.

​​​

[laviation]

Amazed the word stagnate can be used in this context to describe Manchester and EI and VS. EI is very new there and created a new airline to fly these routes in a very short time. They've also increased the aircraft size for the JFK route. VS invested A350 in MAN and they will reopen new US routes. Nothing stagnating about any of this.
​​​

Virgin have only just brought back LAS after 3 years of decline at MAN. Of course, the aircraft issues are to blame.
EI, I don't blame them either. But, the entry of Norse should be the push needed for both to expand some more, after a 2022 and 2023 of little growth !

[Una Due Tfc]

The QF 35Ks are going to be extremely premium heavy, and likely more expensive than flying equivalent class via a ME hub. Is MAN able to support that over an extra LHR/FRA/FCO/CDG rotation etc? I don't think it'll be on the Project Sunrise list myself.

[roverman]

The QF 35Ks are going to be extremely premium heavy, and likely more expensive than flying equivalent class via a ME hub. Is MAN able to support that over an extra LHR/FRA/FCO/CDG rotation etc? I don't think it'll be on the Project Sunrise list myself.

Agreed. The days of direct MAN-Australia service (1983-1994) were the era before the MEB3. The world of aviation has changed and although there is strong demand from northern England to OZ and vv, the capacity, flexibility and value offered by the MEB3 and Far Eastern carriers has cornered the market. An en-route stop over such a long journey is for many travellers a welcome break, in any case. I'm doing it next winter. MAN-SIN-SYD, PER-SIN-MAN with a nice break at Changi in each direction. Singapore Airlines top quality and a decent price.

[laviation]

Emirates will introduce Premium Economy on the afternoon flight from March
I feel this will do well

[boredintheairport]

Ryanair will launch flights to Tirana from late October, thrice weekly on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. In addition, Ryanair will fly from Edinburgh and Stansted to Tirana and a whole host of other cities in Europe.

Information courtesy of SeanM on Twitter (@SeanM1997).

[DomyDom]

Ryanair will launch flights to Tirana from late October, thrice weekly on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays. In addition, Ryanair will fly from Edinburgh and Stansted to Tirana and a whole host of other cities in Europe.

Information courtesy of SeanM on Twitter (@SeanM1997).

Great to see Ryanair expanding from MAN again by opening this new service to the Albanian capital. Always good to see a previously unserved new route put on sale.

[boredintheairport]

Agreed it's a genuinely interesting new route. The Balkans are popular at the moment, particularly Montenegro, but Tirana is also a very interesting city, and Kukes is a lovely beach resort and the countryside is lovely.

There is a hive of activity there now with Wizz and Ryanair expanding rapidly to points across the UK and EU, with Wizzair also launching Tirana - Liverpool (source SeanM1997 on Twitter). Has there been a legislative change to spar this very sharp increase in capacity to Tirana? I am not up to date. Wizz have launched 10 routes with Ryanair launching 17 all in short order.

[DomyDom]

Agreed it's a genuinely interesting new route. The Balkans are popular at the moment, particularly Montenegro, but Tirana is also a very interesting city, and Kukes is a lovely beach resort and the countryside is lovely.

There is a hive of activity there now with Wizz and Ryanair expanding rapidly to points across the UK and EU, with Wizzair also launching Tirana - Liverpool (source SeanM1997 on Twitter). Has there been a legislative change to spar this very sharp increase in capacity to Tirana? I am not up to date. Wizz have launched 10 routes with Ryanair launching 17 all in short order.
I agree Tirana looks an interesting destination. The Balkans, and Albania specifically have recently had quite a bit of favourable coverage in the travel pages of the UK press as a beautiful unspoilt destination that presents good value for money.
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2022/aug/06/albania-beaches-cities-mountains-tourism-history-guide

[GayFriendly]

Albania is a great destination to go to, not only a beautiful coastline but some wonderful scenery and historic sights to visit inland plus Tirana is very buzzy and a touch quirky. For once, the media hype is to be believed and I think it's going to see a huge increase in tourism as a result of this Wizz and FR expansion. The tourism infrastructure IMO is good, hotels generally a really good standard, public transport however for getting around is limited away from Tirana and Sarande and driving is a bit hairy but I think these sorts of things will continue to improve.

With routes launching from BHX, LPL (EDI (Wizz) and MAN, EDI and STN (FR) plus the existing connections from LTN and LGW the airlines know they're on to something and I should imagine there will be a lot of Albania posts and photos on social media accounts over the next year!

[laviation]

Hainan appear to be adding a 5th weekly flight to PEK from W23, according to the ACL report.
They currently operate 4 p/w

Cathay back to daily to HKG, although they've held daily slots for some time now, I do expect them to upgauge in some way shape or form

[ImPlaneCrazy]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x832/cd6587f7_ac30_4f44_a79b_74d64a660265_5d00f4a5a730c5ea0b5e115 6f4362c9b22ed8ab9.jpegOdd….

[Stockportcounty]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x832/cd6587f7_ac30_4f44_a79b_74d64a660265_5d00f4a5a730c5ea0b5e115 6f4362c9b22ed8ab9.jpegOdd….


https://www.dw.com/en/nato-air-defender-23-to-be-biggest-exercise-ever/a-65872291

[spannersatcx]

Hainan appear to be adding a 5th weekly flight to PEK from W23, according to the ACL report.
They currently operate 4 p/w

Cathay back to daily to HKG, although they've held daily slots for some time now, I do expect them to upgauge in some way shape or form
Unfortunately CX has to use 5 slots a day at LHR, as they do not want to loose them, what with LHR being the centre of the universe! The consequences of not enough pilots and a/c means that places like MAN, had to give up slots in order to serve LHR. MAN was supposed to be daily this summer, as were other European ports, but in order to maintain LHR the other European ports had to sacrifice some of their flts! Until such time as there are enough pilots/aircraft (still have 30 in storage until the end of the year) things won't change unfortunately.

[laviation]

Unfortunately CX has to use 5 slots a day at LHR, as they do not want to loose them, what with LHR being the centre of the universe! The consequences of not enough pilots and a/c means that places like MAN, had to give up slots in order to serve LHR. MAN was supposed to be daily this summer, as were other European ports, but in order to maintain LHR the other European ports had to sacrifice some of their flts! Until such time as there are enough pilots/aircraft (still have 30 in storage until the end of the year) things won't change unfortunately. According to Sean on Twitter, it is loaded up on OAG for the winter and next summer and should be on sale soon

[spannersatcx]

According to Sean on Twitter, it is loaded up on OAG for the winter and next summer and should be on sale soon
The very same thing was done for this summer, didn't happen, the same will be done for the winter, doesn't mean it will happen I'm afraid. Don't get me wrong I hope it does, but can't see it happening, at a guess the earliest would be S24.

[lfc84]

Friends used Manchester for a holiday to Rhodes with Tui recently. They said airport check in queue was 1 hour. They say security had 2 lanes open and took 50 minutes to get through.

On the way back they said they landed late and were on the plane for 1 hour because there were no steps or bus to allow them to disembark. They should have landed at 01.40 but due to various delays it was 4.15am when they collected their bags.

The following day they flew to IOM and the boarding gate was announced on the screens, so they went to the gate. Then whilst at the gate the screen said final call. However, they said boarding had not commenced - even though the plane was on the apron.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Unfortunately nearly all of your problems appear to be down to the airlines handling agents - queues for checkin, waiting for steps and the boarding information on the screens. I assume the airside buses are the direct responsibility of the airport however if, as you say, your flight was a few hours late then your bus(s) might have already been allocated to other flights.
I know it's a pain, but so often the fault is as an accumulation of factors.

[MANFAN]

Friends used Manchester for a holiday to Rhodes with Tui recently. They said airport check in queue was 1 hour. They say security had 2 lanes open and took 50 minutes to get through.

On the way back they said they landed late and were on the plane for 1 hour because there were no steps or bus to allow them to disembark. They should have landed at 01.40 but due to various delays it was 4.15am when they collected their bags.

The following day they flew to IOM and the boarding gate was announced on the screens, so they went to the gate. Then whilst at the gate the screen said final call. However, they said boarding had not commenced - even though the plane was on the apron.

Sometimes it’s a case of luck too, I have travelled through Manchester 8 times this year from all three terminals, both arriving and departing flights and with the exception of the TUI check in queue, everything has been fine and on time.

I queued for 45 mins on 21st May to drop my case off with TUI, but Swissport are still not fully staffed so this explains these queues.
But I am surprised at the security queue you mention, 95% of passengers have been processed within 15 mins since April now, across all three terminals, I think your friends were unlucky on this particular day.

[eggc]

All these negative comments - I think we need a new CEO ;)

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Well it has been announced today, that Ken O'Toole is to take-over as CEO of MAG with effect from 1st October.

[SWBKCB]

Doesn't look like a new broom

​​​​​​​
Ken O’Toole was appointed as Deputy Chief Executive in 2022. Prior to this he was the Group's Chief Development Officer. the Chief Executive of London Stansted Airport, and before that Chief Executive of Manchester Airport.

[AlwaysWatching1]

On the contrary my dear old thing, it appears retribution has been swift from the Manchester restaurant shareholders for a chef who preferred his customers to fine dine at an East Midlands Airport table, and was summoned by the owners above, who found out indirectly via a telling off from a higher authority.

The owners nearly choked when full details of how the menu was put together was read back to them.

Moral of the story - You should always book your customers at a place where they wish to eat, it appears our chef was taking orders by phone and sending them many miles away without the knowledge or consent of the owners.

[SWBKCB]

Running the chain single handely, was he?

[commit aviation]

Outgoing CEO not going far - becoming the new MAG Board Chair from October.

[AircraftOperations]

Outgoing CEO not going far - becoming the new MAG Board Chair from October.

So perhaps the change was driven by the current Chair's leaving plans... albeit it was on the cards once a deputy CEO role was installed.

[Navpi]

So perhaps the change was driven by the current Chair's leaving plans... albeit it was on the cards once a deputy CEO role was installed.

Ken O' Toole will be like a breath of fresh air, I've listed the legacy items from CC below ;

.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Chris Woodruff is the chap to watch, appears from the outside to be driving a coach and horses through some departments.

On his watch the TCX hangar is finally being utilised and the no diversion notam consigned to the bin.

Always watching can you explain your stance?
"Telling off from a higher authority"

I assume this relates to cross selling and artifical redirection of freight bound for Manchester to East Midlands and indeed Stansted. I'm not sure which authority has come down hard here. CAA or Monopolies commission.
Can you elaborate ?

[MANFOD]

Friends used Manchester for a holiday to Rhodes with Tui recently. They said airport check in queue was 1 hour. They say security had 2 lanes open and took 50 minutes to get through.

On the way back they said they landed late and were on the plane for 1 hour because there were no steps or bus to allow them to disembark. They should have landed at 01.40 but due to various delays it was 4.15am when they collected their bags.

The following day they flew to IOM and the boarding gate was announced on the screens, so they went to the gate. Then whilst at the gate the screen said final call. However, they said boarding had not commenced - even though the plane was on the apron.

Personally I find it frustrating that certain posters are quick to criticise MAN while keen, perhaps understandably, to promote their own airport.
Obviously, I can't deny the accuracy of these 3rd party reports but am happy to comment our own experience at MAN. Arriving at T2 at 03.30 for a 06.00 TUI flight on a busy Monday morning 3 weeks ago, we were checked in and through security by 04.00. There were plenty of Swissport and as I recall, TUI staff in the check in area...
I accept there have been other reports which said that queues for TUI check-in were well back into the Skylink, but which also pointed out that the queue was moving fairly quickly with plenty of staff on hand and check-in took about 30 minutes. It would be interesting to know if Swissport are fully staffed for this summer..
And based on the stats produced by MAN for average times at security for the 3 Terminals in recent months and the data for waiting times displayed on their web site, I would suggest your friends must have been desperately unlucky, assuming of course you believe them not to be exaggerating.. .
.

[AvGeek1]

Would anyone else agreed that Warsaw is underserved from Manchester? I think there’s the opportunity for either LOT or Wizz to operate from Warsaw Chopin. Ryanair currently thrice weekly to Warsaw Modlin (secondary airport) I believe.

Are there any other short-haul destinations which are underserved from Manchester, that could be operate by a full service airline or low cost carrier?

[laviation]

Zagreb and Belgrade come to mind, Madrid could do with an upgauge from Iberia

[Sotonsean]

Would anyone else agreed that Warsaw is underserved from Manchester? I think there’s the opportunity for either LOT or Wizz to operate from Warsaw Chopin. Ryanair currently thrice weekly to Warsaw Modlin (secondary airport) I believe.

Are there any other short-haul destinations which are underserved from Manchester, that could be operate by a full service airline or low cost carrier?

As your probably aware, LOT Polish Airlines have previously operated a scheduled Warsaw to Manchester service on two previous occasions in the last couple of decades. I think that they applied for slots for 2020 but obviously this didn't materialise. Hopefully LOT will return to Manchester sometime in the future.

As already mentioned, an up gauge with Iberia would be great. A daily Iberia Madrid to Manchester service instead of the current Iberia Express flights.

Hopefully Manchester will eventually see ITA Airways at some point with a service from Milan. The former Alitalia had an on off relationship with Manchester and considering that almost all of the European national airlines have consistently served Manchester it's always surprised me regarding the Italians.

[laviation]

Hopefully Manchester will eventually see ITA Airways at some point with a service from Milan. The former Alitalia had an on off relationship with Manchester and considering that almost all of the European national airlines have consistently served Manchester it's always surprised me regarding the Italians.

Mostly down to the fact Rome and especially Milan are dominated by the LCCs.

[Sotonsean]

Mostly down to the fact Rome and especially Milan are dominated by the LCCs.

BUT

The majority if not all of the European national airlines have consistently served Manchester over the past several decades and have remained at the airport regardless of the growth in LCCs over the last two decades.

Alitalia on the other hand had always an on off relationship with Manchester over the decades compared to the rest of the European national airlines serving the airport. Even before the advent of the LCC competition Alitalia were starting and stopping Milan to Manchester. At one point it was a daily B727 service. So getting back to my previous comments, I've never understood why Alitalia found it difficult serving Manchester when so many of the airline's contemporaries have remained at the airport and are successful even with the competition from the LCCs.

I am fairly confident that ITA Airways which of course is the former Alitalia in disguise will eventually launch a Milan to Manchester route.

On another note.

Air Baltic is another European national airline currently not serving Manchester. With Air Baltic expanding their route network and having a large fleet of A220s I'm surprised that they haven't announced a resumption of a Riga to Manchester route. Air Baltic announced this week that they are looking at acquiring a further 30 A220s. Hopefully Air Baltic at some stage will announce the launch of a Riga to Manchester route.

[MANFAN]

Ryanair or Easyjet to Toulouse is a big missing destination! Ryanair applied for slots for summer 2023 but they have disappeared from the ACL report and aren’t there for winter either!
Was previously served by Flybe until around 2019.
TUI have ski packages once weekly in the winter, but a 2/3 weekly operation should be in place with once of loco’s!

[Navpi]

BUT

The majority if not all of the European national airlines have consistently served Manchester over the past several decades and have remained at the airport regardless of the growth in LCCs over the last two decades.

Alitalia on the other hand had always an on off relationship with Manchester over the decades compared to the rest of the European national airlines serving the airport. Even before the advent of the LCC competition Alitalia were starting and stopping Milan to Manchester. At one point it was a daily B727 service. So getting back to my previous comments, I've never understood why Alitalia found it difficult serving Manchester when so many of the airline's contemporaries have remained at the airport and are successful even with the competition from the LCCs.

I am fairly confident that ITA Airways which of course is the former Alitalia in disguise will eventually launch a Milan to Manchester route.

On another note.

Air Baltic is another European national airline currently not serving Manchester. With Air Baltic expanding their route network and having a large fleet of A220s I'm surprised that they haven't announced a resumption of a Riga to Manchester route. Air Baltic announced this week that they are looking at acquiring a further 30 A220s. Hopefully Air Baltic at some stage will announce the launch of a Riga to Manchester route.

Air Baltic served Manchester before the Ukrainian war broke out. Unfortunately lack of advertising, no branding and no push from the airport sounded its death nell.

We had the usual paragraph in the MEN from the then airport CEO welcoming the service but then zilch.

Manchester Airport has 250k followers on twitter and same on Facebook, I'm sure they could identify some routes and give them a lift "its free". I suspect both platforms are outsourced and run by 3rd parties so unless an airline coughs up for a promo there's nowt down. its a wasted resource that costs nothing.

Egyptair start soon MAN s/b pushing this NOW !

I'm sure CW will get to grips with PR/comms and that department soon.

[laviation]

I’d like to see Amman, potentially Ankara and in a dream world Washington

If we are talking about unserved destinations, there is still a lot of ground to be made up in the US. I am hopeful we may even see 3 or 4 returning destinations alongside LAS.. but watch this space I suppose .

[laviation]

Finnair up to 12 weekly on HEL

[OzzyOzBorn]

Air Baltic served Manchester before the Ukrainian war broke out. Unfortunately lack of advertising, no branding and no push from the airport sounded its death nell.

What happened with Air Baltic at MAN makes for a most unusual case study. IIRC, they had originally planned to launch MAN-RIX in S20 - I had a booking with them - but then a certain COVID-19 pandemic emerged and launch was delayed. As many will recall, 2021 was a dire year for air travel generally, but Air Baltic made the baffling decision to launch the MAN-RIX route that Summer anyway. Four times weekly with A220-300 equipment, no less. Air travel demand was mega-depressed at this time. It wasn't just the cumbersome outbound covid paperwork. The idea of having to devote one day of a short break finding a covid clinic in Latvia, and explaining (in what language?) that you required a very specific type of covid test there and then, with appropriate paperwork produced within hours at a reasonable cost ... NO, I didn't rebook for that Summer, and I don't think many others did either. Meanwhile, unfolding events proved Latvia to be one of the strictest covid jurisdictions around. They endured draconian covid lockdowns long after the UK had moved on. Air Baltic duly reduced MAN-RIX to 2 x weekly.

As we moved into 2022, things appeared to be looking up. The public had become disillusioned by the whole covid circus; discredited "experts" were justifiably ridiculed, showboating politicians were shown the door. Travel restrictions gradually eased, covid test requirements to return home were dropped, lockdown threats faded away. Though let's not forget that our likely next PM called this easing "reckless". Unfortunately for Air Baltic, as one existential threat receded, another burst upon the scene. Putin invaded Ukraine in late February 2022. This was devastating for Air Baltic. Their East-West hub business model over Riga evaporated at a stroke. Russia, Ukraine, Belarus closed off. Overflight airspace closed to the East. Meanwhile, perceived proximity to the war zone and fears that the Baltic States would be drawn in to the conflict adversely affected demand for air travel in the region. So MAN-RIX limped on into Summer 2022. Confidence gradually improved as all covid measures were rescinded and the war in Ukraine was contained.

I rebooked my own postponed MAN-RIX trip for late August 2022. Then I booked a further four return seats on the route for September 2022. In mid-Summer, I received an email from Air Baltic advising me that my September flights were cancelled and I was being refunded. Curiously, there was no similar message for my late August trip. News soon emerged that Air Baltic was terminating MAN-RIX at the end of August 2022. Meanwhile, Air Baltic had switched to a strategy of wet-leasing out A220's to carriers such as Eurowings, SAS and Swiss to keep the money flowing in. Times seemed desperate. But a surprise awaited me when I boarded that late August MAN-RIX flight ... one of the last operated on the route. It looked FULL! I was amazed. There may have been an odd empty seat on there, but certainly not many. I can't comment on the yield (obviously) but that flight confirmed to me that latent demand IS there once barriers to travel are removed. This made it even more disappointing that my September trip for four couldn't happen.

I can't blame MAG at all for what happened here. Yes, it would be a good thing to see them pursue a general strategy to raise awareness of less well known routes. But I think the challenges which brought down Air Baltic's MAN-RIX route were way beyond anything they could have influenced. However, I would urge MAN to re-engage with Air Baltic now. Of course the economics of MAN-RIX were beyond dire when they did operate the route. The accounts from that time must glow with red ink. But those circumstances were unique and will hopefully never be repeated in our lifetimes. Covid rules are a bad memory and the Ukraine war looks unlikely to spill over into the Baltic States. Those August 2022 flights operated just before the service was pulled demonstrated what the real underlying demand could be. Time to persuade Air Baltic to give MAN-RIX another go, IMHO. And, of course, we still have Ryanair in the fray as well. They're maintaining a 3 x weekly operation on MAN-RIX.

[Navpi]

Nope no blame attached to MAG, just an observation for them to keep an eye on load factors and give a heave occasionally.

[Curious Pax]

What happened with Air Baltic at MAN makes for a most unusual case study. IIRC, they had originally planned to launch MAN-RIX in S20 - I had a booking with them - but then a certain COVID-19 pandemic emerged and launch was delayed. As many will recall, 2021 was a dire year for air travel generally, but Air Baltic made the baffling decision to launch the MAN-RIX route that Summer anyway. Four times weekly with A220-300 equipment, no less. Air travel demand was mega-depressed at this time. It wasn't just the cumbersome outbound covid paperwork. The idea of having to devote one day of a short break finding a covid clinic in Latvia, and explaining (in what language?) that you required a very specific type of covid test there and then, with appropriate paperwork produced within hours at a reasonable cost ... NO, I didn't rebook for that Summer, and I don't think many others did either. Meanwhile, unfolding events proved Latvia to be one of the strictest covid jurisdictions around. They endured draconian covid lockdowns long after the UK had moved on. Air Baltic duly reduced MAN-RIX to 2 x weekly.

As we moved into 2022, things appeared to be looking up. The public had become disillusioned by the whole covid circus; discredited "experts" were justifiably ridiculed, showboating politicians were shown the door. Travel restrictions gradually eased, covid test requirements to return home were dropped, lockdown threats faded away. Though let's not forget that our likely next PM called this easing "reckless". Unfortunately for Air Baltic, as one existential threat receded, another burst upon the scene. Putin invaded Ukraine in late February 2022. This was devastating for Air Baltic. Their East-West hub business model over Riga evaporated at a stroke. Russia, Ukraine, Belarus closed off. Overflight airspace closed to the East. Meanwhile, perceived proximity to the war zone and fears that the Baltic States would be drawn in to the conflict adversely affected demand for air travel in the region. So MAN-RIX limped on into Summer 2022. Confidence gradually improved as all covid measures were rescinded and the war in Ukraine was contained.

I rebooked my own postponed MAN-RIX trip for late August 2022. Then I booked a further four return seats on the route for September 2022. In mid-Summer, I received an email from Air Baltic advising me that my September flights were cancelled and I was being refunded. Curiously, there was no similar message for my late August trip. News soon emerged that Air Baltic was terminating MAN-RIX at the end of August 2022. Meanwhile, Air Baltic had switched to a strategy of wet-leasing out A220's to carriers such as Eurowings, SAS and Swiss to keep the money flowing in. Times seemed desperate. But a surprise awaited me when I boarded that late August MAN-RIX flight ... one of the last operated on the route. It looked FULL! I was amazed. There may have been an odd empty seat on there, but certainly not many. I can't comment on the yield (obviously) but that flight confirmed to me that latent demand IS there once barriers to travel are removed. This made it even more disappointing that my September trip for four couldn't happen.

I can't blame MAG at all for what happened here. Yes, it would be a good thing to see them pursue a general strategy to raise awareness of less well known routes. But I think the challenges which brought down Air Baltic's MAN-RIX route were way beyond anything they could have influenced. However, I would urge MAN to re-engage with Air Baltic now. Of course the economics of MAN-RIX were beyond dire when they did operate the route. The accounts from that time must glow with red ink. But those circumstances were unique and will hopefully never be repeated in our lifetimes. Covid rules are a bad memory and the Ukraine war looks unlikely to spill over into the Baltic States. Those August 2022 flights operated just before the service was pulled demonstrated what the real underlying demand could be. Time to persuade Air Baltic to give MAN-RIX another go, IMHO. And, of course, we still have Ryanair in the fray as well. They're maintaining a 3 x weekly operation on MAN-RIX.

You can also add the A220 engine issues to the mix…

[OzzyOzBorn]

Can anybody confirm the rumour that Charlie Cornish and his senior executive team have agreed to renounce all salary bonuses until Hi-Lo cargo handling capability is restored to the Manchester Airport campus? Good business is avoidably being turned away to the detriment of the region and potential airline customers. I applaud Mr Cornish and his team for making this gesture - if true - because it demonstrates to shareholders that the executive team cares about the regrettable loss of business implied, and will accept a personal financial sacrifice until they can resolve this unfortunate situation. Stakeholders deserve no less, after all. As one senior exec is alleged to utter frequently: "inadequate service is unworthy of generous reward."

Rumour suggests that they will resume accepting salary bonuses with effect from the date that a fully-trained team handles it's first freighter of the new 'cargo welcome' era at MAN using based Hi-Lo equipment.

[Sioltach Dubh Glas]

Ozzy - a priceless post.

Thank you.

[eye2eye5]

Bonuses are paid for hitting or exceeding previously agreed targets, unless lack of freight handling capability is deemed to be bringing MAN into disrepute…….

[OzzyOzBorn]

unless lack of freight handling capability is deemed to be bringing MAN into disrepute…….

MAN in disrepute for persistently turning away cargo flights??? Surely not!!! :}​​​​​​​

[MANFOD]

Can anybody confirm the rumour that Charlie Cornish and his senior executive team have agreed to renounce all salary bonuses until Hi-Lo cargo handling capability is restored to the Manchester Airport campus? Good business is avoidably being turned away to the detriment of the region and potential airline customers. I applaud Mr Cornish and his team for making this gesture - if true - because it demonstrates to shareholders that the executive team cares about the regrettable loss of business implied, and will accept a personal financial sacrifice until they can resolve this unfortunate situation. Stakeholders deserve no less, after all. As one senior exec is alleged to utter frequently: "inadequate service is unworthy of generous reward."

Rumour suggests that they will resume accepting salary bonuses with effect from the date that a fully-trained team handles it's first freighter of the new 'cargo welcome' era at MAN using based Hi-Lo equipment.

A wonderful "rumour" Ozzy. If only .........!

Out of interest, are there any other European airports of a comparable size to MAN in passenger numbers that don't have at least one hi-lo on their site.for upper deck cargo handling?
Athens, Zurich, Vienna & Milan Malpensa for example were of a similar size for 2022.

[SWBKCB]

And second part of the quiz question, how any other European airports of a comparable size to MAN in passenger numbers that don't have at least one hi-lo on their site.for upper deck cargo handling have an airport owned by the same group with a significant cargo handling facility just down the road?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Given the pressing issue of the day is a pain point for parking passenger narrow bodies, how does going after wide body cargo traffic address that priority? One heavy takes up two narrow body stands in the main?

[Mr Mac]

Mrs Mac came through new T2 this morning reporting broken A/C and none working lifts. When speaking to one of the staff at the perfume counter she was told that a lot of stuff is failing on the newly built areas and Laing O,Rourke are very slow at fixing stuff.

Long queues at food counters, and toilets apparently, and the flow through Duty Free badly planned. Now this women worked in the industry actually running airports and knows a bit about how to make them tick,so her points are perhaps more justified than mine as I am just SLF though occasionally have built a few terminals.

My own take on T2 is that the structure looks a little below parr, and is more akin to a bus station but my comments are more aesthetically based and QA/QC of the products used, hers are operationally based and far important for the success of the business. I will not mention her comments on Meet and Greet parking service she has been forced to use due to lack of parking in the terminal apparently. She was not happy handing over keys to a £100k , car so as I said before she will be looking at Liverpool/ Leeds in future. I do hope it comes back un damaged 🙂

Jet 2 were fine with Air Tanker 330. I came down from Munich with LH and no issues and I got to sleep in 🙂

Cheers
Mr Mac

[eggc]

Given the pressing issue of the day is a pain point for parking passenger narrow bodies, how does going after wide body cargo traffic address that priority? One heavy takes up two narrow body stands in the main?

That's only a significant issue between 11pm and 6am - most for the rest of the day there is ample space. That said the remote stands 62 to 72 will be lost soon enough to allow space for the dual taxiway and that will make things a little tricky until the cargo sheds go to re-open space to get those remotes back.

[go-around flap 15]

She was not happy handing over keys to a £100k , car so as I said before she will be looking at Liverpool/ Leeds in future. I do hope it comes back un damaged 🙂

This is all you really wanted to say isn't it.

[highwideandugly]

Liverpool…Leeds..? Good luck there then 🤪🤪 !

[Navpi]

Given the pressing issue of the day is a pain point for parking passenger narrow bodies, how does going after wide body cargo traffic address that priority? One heavy takes up two narrow body stands in the main?

Come on Skip, you are better than that, yes there are some choke points but there is no issue re parking.
One could equally argue there is simply no room at EMA 2200 0600 works both ways ?

[Navpi]

Manchester is not a poundland Luton airport catering just for Tracey and Sharon who just want their annual week in Ibiza. Its range of operations including freight are absolute critical to the Northern economy, I'm sure the Greater Manchester shareholders who own the 35% stake in the airport would agree. It's remit (was), is to provide a service not just for holidaymakers but the wider business community.

Handling cargo used to be an absolutely vital piece of the North Of England supply chain but now is a spoke of its sister airports and others rather than thee primary spoke. I am now reading airline after airline applying to use Manchester but seemingly being turned away. The airport seems time to be throwing the excuse back at the handling agents who do not have the right equipment..... "Well hang on, get some agents in who do..!!!" All airports in the UK have minimum service level agreements which they have to meet in terms of staffing and equipment.

Manchester Airport it seems is turning a blind eye to this and seems happy to use it as an excuse to turn away business.Prestwick, East Midlands, Birmingham, Stansted, Heathrow, Gatwick and wait for it even Bournemouth all have relevant infastructure in place but seemingly not Manchester.

Lets for one minute turn this round.If this was a policy directive enacted by Westminster major companies, business owners, and agencies such as Marketing Manchester and the Northern Powerhouse Forum would be screaming blue murder, but it is seemingly happening under the noses of Manchester Airport major shareholders without a by or leave.

[HOVIS]

this is all you really wanted to say isn't it.

👌😅😅😅😅

[Mr Mac]

Very cheap shot re car, and no I didn’t want to say that but as others around her were saying the same thing this morning ,a justified point is it not. That is her point, and indeed her car, but unlike some who post on here, she has the experience of running airports, and business at a somewhat more senior level then noting numbers, and watching planes land and take off.

If she with her knowledge of how airports work, and more importantly make or lose money, can see issues then I would listen to her comments.

She is not impressed with plane spotters and different aircraft, or indeed exotic routes, it’s down to can you make money, as landing and handling those A/C unfortunately no longer pays the bills at provincial airports, and that is what Manchester is, as unfortunately LHR is the UK Global gateway, so you’re landing fees will never cover all your costs.

Therefore you are down to shopping/ parking/ food and drink and how your punters feel about their experience, and hers was not great as she said to me when I arrived. I rarely use T2 as the only carriers I use from there are CX and Singapore so can not say much though, I did note extended lines for toilets last time I went through in passing.

As for Leeds and Liverpool she knows Liverpool very well, and Leeds less so. My own experience of Liverpool, though limited and pre Covid, was fine, and with Leeds my only issues are queuing onto tarmac for immigration ( it was dry thankfully) and the issue with a runway that faces the wrong direction for prevailing winds.

Manchester appears to have spent a lot of money on a badly designed and executed terminal, which seems to be already failing technically in that it has been built cheaply and parts of it are already failing as noted.

You can say yes I am having a go at the design, as that is what I do for a living, and there are better looking sheds in Northamptonshire than the parts grafted into the original T2. It looks poor externally to me, and that is all I can say, and not a great advert for the North of the UK, as though a provincial airport it is the largest one with the biggest global reach outside the SE, so yes a better fist could have been made of it aesthetically. Believe me I do not like LHR and will try and avoid at all costs but MAG should and indeed could better.

Another pertinent question would be when is it going to be finished ? Best guess?

Cheers
Mr Mac

[OzzyOzBorn]

Given the pressing issue of the day is a pain point for parking passenger narrow bodies, how does going after wide body cargo traffic address that priority? One heavy takes up two narrow body stands in the main?

This is a myth which has been allowed to run unchallenged. The reality is that MAN currently has around nine fewer based aircraft than was the case in S2018. Movements have not recovered to levels seen pre-covid; MAG has recently cut back dual runway ops hours because demand is not sufficient to justify the previously promulgated timings. Passenger throughput is approximately 3.6 million below the peak MAT recorded in the twelve months to September 2019. Movements remain 35,504 short based on the MAT's for September 2019 versus May 2023; that is a loss just shy of 100 movements per day. In what universe do these numbers leave MAN challenged for space? And remember that talk back then was of further growth - not crisis. MAG boasts a nominal capacity of 45 million pax pa across it's three terminals. Even allowing for a measure of artistic licence, the airport is nowhere close to handling those kind of numbers. Yes, we know that a number of stands are unavailable due to work in progress. BUT ... that was already the case in September 2019 ... just different ones. Yes, we know that some stands are lost to the dual taxiways initiative; but keep in mind that new stands have opened in the meantime, including 14 on new Pier 1 and a further 10 to the NW of it.

Charts show MAN as having 105 numbered stands, not all of which are currently available for use. However, several of those which are sub-divide into L/R format, allowing two narrowbodies to park on the same numbered stand. Set against this, projected based fleet strength for Summer 2023 is 84 units - though not all of these nightstop. A small number of overseas carriers nightstop aircraft at MAN, and there are probably some standby units on campus too. But if we allow for those minus the 'based' aircraft which are away flying overnight, what can we conclude? Yes, MAG should be making plans to construct additional aircraft stands to guarantee future resilience. But NO, this is not a crisis level which should see aircraft turned away in real time. There is certainly ample space to accommodate cargo flight demand ... we're not talking several freight aircraft on the ground simultaneously. One or two at a time maybe ... let's be realistic. And some of those in daytime when demand is much more muted.

It does not require a genius to identify apron space for a couple of cargo movements per day based on current levels of demand. There may be a lack of will to make things work, but there is certainly a way. It's not that difficult. If they're struggling, my consultancy fees are very reasonable! 😀

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Shed-on-a-pole were you ATC or airport ops? You really wear your heart on your sleeve which has pros but cons of blind spots. I think only EMA/STN both MAG and LHR/PIK have main deck scheduled regular cargo service. BOH has A346 preighters which are IMHO post COVID not worth the candle. GLA/EDI/LGW/BHX etc have none, although the odd charter isn't unknown. Who's a realistic, profitable candidate here for MAN?

It just seems that some feel that EMA/STN have what is "rightfully" MAN's....

[OzzyOzBorn]

I am not advocating pursuit of cargo business best suited to EMA (or STN). They are a focus hub for the likes of DHL, UPS and FedEx; MAN can only aspire to be a spoke for operations such as these - though this airport should not be artificially inhibited from fulfilling that role where offered. More pertinent to MAN is cargo intended for the NW region specifically - that business IS "rightfully" MAN's, particularly when it pertains to carriers which would like to supplement existing passenger schedules with whole-plane freight services. As for realistic candidates, I am aware of specific carriers which have enquired at MAN. However, it is not appropriate to post commercially sensitive information on here and I'm not prepared to do so.

If cargo business is this dire profit black hole which you describe, why are airports such as STN and EMA so keen to attract such terrible business for themselves? They must see something in it. They aren't charities. And MAG proudly trumpets their cargo prowess.

I note that you reference my "blind spots", apparently borne of raw emotion. However, I put it to you that the data summarised by me in post 2702 has addressed afew "blind spots" of your own. However, please feel free to expand on my "blind spots" (as you identify them) for further topical discussion.

[HOVIS]

May I point out that some years ago, during the summer months the airport was bustling for almost 24 hours, fleets of jets used to flock in at 2am then out again an hour or two later. We don't see that now, it's pretty dead after about 1am.

[Mr Mac]

Hovis
Maybe young Brit holiday makers got fed up of being hauled off to the Costa,s at 02.00 in the morning. It used to noticeable that other European countries didn’t fly these midnight to 06.00 departures. If not then perhaps the carriers decided those times were no longer good for their business.

I think there are still a few early morning arrivals / departures and indeed I was a woken by one a few weeks ago at home at 02.30 approximately.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[ATNotts]

OzzyOzBorn,

It seems to me, as a mere mortal with some business experience, that businesses play to their strengths and MAG management appears to believe that MAN strength lies in passenger operations, while EMA's strength is cargo. If you ever visit EMA you would probably be amazed by how comparatively poor the passenger/terminal facility is, but thats because the investment has gone into cargo.

I would agree it does appear odd that an airport at important as MAN apparently doesn't have a main deck wide body cargo loader, but that investment would surely have to come from a handling agent. BHX has the equipment since it has a small but thriving specialist cargo handling agent that invested in it (Blue City Aviation). Perhaps the way ahead for MAN is to find an entrepreneur willing to do likewise there?

[laviation]

One other potential use for 24 hour ops could be the holiday flights to Turkey/Greece/Cyprus. Out at 00:30 for example, into your hotel for 10:00 in the morning
..and then return flight leaving mid morning.. getting back to UK for the afternoon.
This certainly beats the horrible 16:00-22:00 and 23:30-02:40 schedules that put a lot of people off !

[Navpi]

It's interesting to note that many observers with no direct connection with Manchester Airport have an opinion, they are of course welcome. Many feel that MAGs strategic planning is on point with reference to freight, but i would contest whether there would be the same degree of enthusiasm for this misguided strategy if their own airport were so encumbered ?

An airport the size of Manchester should be supporting dedicated aircraft handling services to airlines specialising in time-sensitive air freight services, just in time logistics and general air cargo supporting the North of England region.

[SWBKCB]

It's interesting to note that many observers with no direct connection with Manchester Airport have an opinion, they are of course welcome. Many feel that MAGs strategic planning is on point with reference to freight, but i would contest whether there would be the same degree of enthusiasm for this misguided strategy if their own airport were so encumbered ?

What's your connection with MAN that gives your view any extra weight and what's your evidence that supports your view that you know better than the professionals running the airport? And there is a difference from thinking it is "on point" and understanding why the current approach is in place - none of us have the facts to know.


particularly when it pertains to carriers which would like to supplement existing passenger schedules with whole-plane freight services. As for realistic candidates, I am aware of specific carriers which have enquired at MAN. However, it is not appropriate to post commercially sensitive information on here and I'm not prepared to do so.

This from Ozzy is the only comment I've seen which has been anything other than speculation and opinion.

[ATNotts]

It's interesting to note that many observers with no direct connection with Manchester Airport have an opinion, they are of course welcome. Many feel that MAGs strategic planning is on point with reference to freight, but i would contest whether there would be the same degree of enthusiasm for this misguided strategy if their own airport were so encumbered ?
EMA is just so 'encumbered' as you put it, but in reverse.

Insofar as BHX doesn't go out of its way to promote cargo I would suspect it is in a similar situation as MAN, but I don't see the same wringing of hands on the BHX thread. Its just business reality.

[chaps1954]

Departures after midnight are not popular with anybody but arrivals after midnight is a different thing with on average 14 arrivals per hour upto 03.00 but departures after midnight were curtailed
several years ago as to be a good neighbour. Do you remember the Laker 1-11 departing off 06 at 0200 on a hot day back in 70s oh boy they were loud

[Navpi]

And second part of the quiz question, how any other European airports of a comparable size to MAN in passenger numbers that don't have at least one hi-lo on their site.for upper deck cargo handling have an airport owned by the same group with a significant cargo handling facility just down the road?

Curious , do you actually use the airport to support your business ?

[SWBKCB]

Curious , do you actually use the airport to support your business ?

No, but I've worked in a group structure where different units specialised, so I'm familiar with dealing with similarly myopic views.

And my local has just bought a main deck hi-lo after not having one for years, yet to speak to anybody who has any idea why!

[eggc]

I think there are still a few early morning arrivals / departures and indeed I was a woken by one a few weeks ago at home at 02.30 approximately.

Living directly under the 23R approach some 3 miles out I can assure folk after midnight hours for arrivals is still very much a thing - tonight for instance there are 40 arrivals between midnight and 3am - not insignificant and to put in perspective that is nearly as many arrivals between 0000 and 0300 at MAN than LPL gets in a whole 24 hour period. That probably makes MAN the busiest airport in the UK along with LGW during those hours ( LGW has 34 arrivals 0000-0300 tonight ).

[MANFOD]

An airport the size of Manchester should be supporting dedicated aircraft handling services to airlines specialising in time-sensitive air freight services, just in time logistics and general air cargo supporting the North of England region.

Nail on head firmly hit!

It would appear that at one time 2 of the airport's handling agents each had a hi-lo for main deck cargo. Whether the decision to dispose of them and send them elsewhere was solely the decision of the agents, with the approval of the Airport, or at the instigation of the Airport is not clear.

ATNotts refers to BHX, which presumably has a hi-lo that enabled it to handle the occasional ad-hoc freighter during the pandemic.and perhaps still does.
If freight companies and airlines enquire to MAN to operate flights and are told they cannot be handled, why should it be assumed they would automatically go to EMA or STN, the other MAG airports? Isn't it conceivable they may choose to go elsewhere and MAG not get the business?

An earlier post, by navpi I recall, referred to minimum level service agreements that airports require to be agreed by their handling agents. Would this not normally specify requirements for the handling of cargo?

I believe Ozzy is correct when he states that MAN is not full at night, despite the ongoing temporary loss of some stands. However, I do sometimes wonder if the airport creates a misleading impression. For example, a few years ago, it was reported that ryanair could not have the number of extra based a/c they wanted.that summer. That would have been T3 and it could possibly have been terminal capacity rather than parking stands that was the issue. I also understand that airlines wishing to base additional a/c at MAN have to get prior permission before slots can be allocated. Is this correct, and if so, is it something new or been there for some time?

Finally, thank you to chaps1954 for pointing out that there are such things as night restrictions for departures, noise level limits etc.which seem to have escaped some posters. Not sure why hovis thinks things are dead after 01.00. As eggc and chaps 1954 mention, arrivals between midnight and 03.00 can be extremely busy.. .
. . .

[SWBKCB]

An airport the size of Manchester should be supporting dedicated aircraft handling services to airlines specialising in time-sensitive air freight services, just in time logistics and general air cargo supporting the North of England region.

And being able to handle wide-body freighters has an impact on this. Any evidence that EMA can't fulfill this function?

ATNotts refers to BHX, which presumably has a hi-lo that enabled it to handle the occasional ad-hoc freighter during the pandemic.and perhaps still does.
If freight companies and airlines enquire to MAN to operate flights and are told they cannot be handled, why should it be assumed they would automatically go to EMA or STN, the other MAG airports? Isn't it conceivable they may choose to go elsewhere and MAG not get the business?

So MAN should have a high-lo to handle the occasional ad-hoc charter? Doesn't seem to have done BHX much good in attracting regular traffic. And also, there is a bit more to it than having the equipment, it's the staff and the rest of the infrastructure. The role of the handling agent is being ignored, BHX have a small specialist company, where's at MAN I doubt whether the mainstream agents would be interested without a regular significant schedule. Ad hoc charters with big freighters are usually a pain in the backside.

[Rutan16]

Shed-on-a-pole were you ATC or airport ops? You really wear your heart on your sleeve which has pros but cons of blind spots. I think only EMA/STN both MAG and LHR/PIK have main deck scheduled regular cargo service. BOH has A346 preighters which are IMHO post COVID not worth the candle. GLA/EDI/LGW/BHX etc have none, although the odd charter isn't unknown. Who's a realistic, profitable candidate here for MAN?

It just seems that some feel that EMA/STN have what is "rightfully" MAN's....

The point is sensible, however need to bring THIS back into the conversation from a few months ago .


(Airports knuckle slapped by competition regulators)
Reuters have reported that airport operators have had their knuckles slapped for breaching both competition and Data protection acts
The Competition and Markets Authority and CAA apparently sent a letter to the operators telling them to review their practices and that they and their employees must comply with the competition laws
No individual operators were named directly by Reuters.

Given MAG are the largest operator of multiple facilities each sort of dedicated and numerous comments here and elsewhere let’s see if this relates to cross selling - Switch selling of the freight and flexible fares business as being the real reason
Perhaps an airline or more have snitched !

I suggest this influences the change of opinions (and that of the new man in charge at that) at the top of Manchester Airport (as opposed to parent MAG) and that they can not continue with overt switch selling without inviting the eagle eye of the regulator.
The potential of a financial penalty may well be multitude higher than the annual leasing costs of have a HiLo Scissor especially a reconditioned one on estate today and then actively promoting the availability of service to potential customers.

[HOVIS]

Hovis
Maybe young Brit holiday makers got fed up of being hauled off to the Costa,s at 02.00 in the morning. It used to noticeable that other European countries didn’t fly these midnight to 06.00 departures. If not then perhaps the carriers decided those times were no longer good for their business.

I think there are still a few early morning arrivals / departures and indeed I was a woken by one a few weeks ago at home at 02.30 approximately.

Cheers
Mr Mac
The ones I particularly remember were Spanair. A fleet of 767s would be in well after midnight then out again before 4am.

[MANFOD]

S
So MAN should have a high-lo to handle the occasional ad-hoc charter? Doesn't seem to have done BHX much good in attracting regular traffic. And also, there is a bit more to it than having the equipment, it's the staff and the rest of the infrastructure. The role of the handling agent is being ignored, BHX have a small specialist company, where's at MAN I doubt whether the mainstream agents would be interested without a regular significant schedule. Ad hoc charters with big freighters are usually a pain in the backside.

Where did I say that MAN should get a hi-lo for an occasional ad-hoc charter? There is evidence that MAN is getting inquiries for regular freight flights, not just the one-offs. This is what Ozzy wrote:
"More pertinent to MAN is cargo intended for the NW region specifically - that business IS "rightfully" MAN's, particularly when it pertains to carriers which would like to supplement existing passenger schedules with whole-plane freight services. As for realistic candidates, I am aware of specific carriers which have enquired at MAN. However, it is not appropriate to post commercially sensitive information on here and I'm not prepared to do so"

My point was that some airports have hi-lo equipment for the occasional ad-hoc flights they might get, whereas the evidence indicates there is interest by freight companies and airlines to operate into MAN on a more regular basis yet the airport doesn't have the equipment apparently to handle main deck cargo.

And in that case, perhaps the handling agents would be interested, as you yourself seem to acknowledge. However, who decides whether or not a hi-lo should be acquired? Is it solely down to the Agents who probably get the inquiries? Does it need the blessing of the Airport that they can accommodate, and are willing to take, wide-bodied freighters? Or could the airport direct the agents to get a hi-lo under the service agreements if they know pure freight business is in the offing? I'm sure someone in the business knows the protocol for those of us who may not be clear.

[chaps1954]

Spannair were MD-80 if which some nights could be 5 or 6

[Mr Mac]

With regards to freight one of the things to consider is logistically the UK is not that big and the distance from EMA to MAN is not that great a distance and there is a large logistical park adjacent to EMA which is growing. Maybe the decision has been taken to make EMA the freight hub.

As for MAN maybe concentrates on its passenger offering and finish what they started. The remote stands will be an issue in more inclement weather, and none of the stairs being used that I have observed have had roofs unlike Frankfurt that also has many remote stands with arguably worse winter weather. Boarding a 330 with one set of stairs is a time consuming issue !
As I mentioned Leeds earlier I do not understand how they get away with the large queues for immigration stretching onto an operational apron at times when flights are early or indeed late. The stairs comment also applies there as well.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[BHX5DME]

Reading on an another site lots of people missing flights earlier due to 2.5 hours queues and we are not in peak summer yet !

[eggc]

People are looking at cargo from a MAN only perspective, not MAG wide. MAG don't need cargo at MAN as they have a superb facility in a perfect location at EMA. It's no more complicated than that and if I ran MAG it would make perfect sense to keeping sending cargo to its dedicated cargo hub. Makes perfect sense for the business...but less so for MAN fans & spotters.

[Rutan16]

With regards to freight one of the things to consider is logistically the UK is not that big and the distance from EMA to MAN is not that great a distance and there is a large logistical park adjacent to EMA which is growing. Maybe the decision has been taken to make EMA the freight hub.

As for MAN maybe concentrates on its passenger offering and finish what they started. The remote stands will be an issue in more inclement weather, and none of the stairs being used that I have observed have had roofs unlike Frankfurt that also has many remote stands with arguably worse winter weather. Boarding a 330 with one set of stairs is a time consuming issue !
As I mentioned Leeds earlier I do not understand how they get away with the large queues for immigration stretching onto an operational apron at times when flights are early or indeed late. The stairs comment also applies there as well.

Cheers
Mr Mac

Paragraph one is exactly what MAG group allegedly have been engaged in covertly for years; however the cross selling has been deemed counter competitive and sharing of DATA in breach of GDPS and Data Protection Act 2018 !

EGGC its illegal to continue do this and the new management know this very well - Refer above the regulators have put operators on NOTICE !

[wools]

Re Main Deck Loaders(MDL) and the GHA's:- to the best of my knowledge MDL are not specifically mentioned in the GHA licences at MAN. It is also not cost effective to have a MDL sitting at an airport i.e MAN if no possibility of usage. Also probably why NCL now have a MDL ex Doncaster closure, as they do have ad-hoc freighters.

It is not just having the equipment but also trained employees, all that experience was lost after Cathay, Lufthansa, FedEx etc., departed.

[MANFOD]

Reading on an another site lots of people missing flights earlier due to 2.5 hours queues and we are not in peak summer yet !
How earlier was that and which terminal, because currently the airport is showing 0 - 15 minutes waiting time at security for all 3 Terminals?

[BHX5DME]

How earlier was that and which terminal, because currently the airport is showing 0 - 15 minutes waiting time at security for all 3 Terminals?

The thread is Manchester Airport (MAN-EGCC) Facebook Group

[SWBKCB]

Re Main Deck Loaders(MDL) and the GHA's:- to the best of my knowledge MDL are not specifically mentioned in the GHA licences at MAN. It is also not cost effective to have a MDL sitting at an airport i.e MAN if no possibility of usage. Also probably why NCL now have a MDL ex Doncaster closure, as they do have ad-hoc freighters.

It is not just having the equipment but also trained employees, all that experience was lost after Cathay, Lufthansa, FedEx etc., departed.

Very infrequently - can't remember the last one above 737 size

[Navpi]

People are looking at cargo from a MAN only perspective, not MAG wide. MAG don't need cargo at MAN as they have a superb facility in a perfect location at EMA. It's no more complicated than that and if I ran MAG it would make perfect sense to keeping sending cargo to its dedicated cargo hub. Makes perfect sense for the business...but less so for MAN fans & spotters.

Oh my goodness, the lack of knowledge in this area really is stellar.

I hasten to add i am not singling out eggc here but more the off recurring point that seems to be corrosive that it makes "perfect business sense".

Well here's a thing I'm the import customer at the end of the chain, and its not making perfect sense to me and clearly not to a few others given Rutans observations.

I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him given others have also made the point more covertly earlier on in this thread. There was i believe a suggestion that this practice may have even allegedly instigated management changes.

The Manchester airport cargo page is positively gushing, the reality I'm sad too say in some instances is the complete opposite.

Point1) There seems to be a suggestion that freight which has routinely been redirected to EMA is simply "popped" on a lorry and with a Mary Poppins click of the fingers is available some 90 minutes later for onwards despatch from Manchester, that as Micheal O' Leary might indicate is complete xxxxxxxolgy. We are in most cases talking a min' of 48 hours and in some cases more, especially if the divert is to Stansted. Certainly if my own experience is anything to go by freight becomes bound up in a logistical log jam of customs, storage, and lorry consolidation/ availability. After these hurdles have been overcome it eventually leaves for Manchester where it is then stored again in transit waiting further pick up.

Point2 ) As Rutan has indicated it is NOT repeat NOT in Manchesters gift henceforth to potentially take an enquiry for freight bound specifically for Manchester and indicate that it should be redirected to EMA or indeed as sometimes happens Stansted.

As per the web site I'm struggling with a few of the claims.

120,000 tonnes per annum throughput stands out immediately but according to wikepedia, it is infact only 65,000 tonnes.

(Is the other 65,000 tonnes driven in by truck from other airports)? if that is the case it suggests only half of Manchester throughput is directly received at the Airport by plane. Does that not then in turn undermine the following claims ?

The World Frieght Terminal is quote "located within a two-hour drive of the cities of Birmingham, Bradford, Coventry, Hull, Leeds, Nottingham, Sheffield, Stoke and Wolverhampton. London, Glasgow and Edinburgh are within four hours".

If your imported goods have come below deck this may be true, if it was switch sold to EMA or even Stansted, well good luck with those trucking times.

"The M56 motorway forms an integral part of the regional motorway network, providing direct access to Manchester, Liverpool and the M6 motorway, with travel times of 20, 40 and 15 minutes respectively from the World Freight Terminal".

True but if your consignment again was switch sold to EMA/Stansted the location of the M56 becomes somewhat academic.

There remains a lot of civic pride for Manchester specifically from it's shareholders in Greater Manchester, we saw this when delays took hold last year and heads rolled. We also had evidence of this when the next phase of terminal development was announced in February.

I'm struggling to envisage a situation where those same shareholders "knowingly" allowed this situation to develope to the extent that a regulator has then had to step in.

The new CEO appears to be from the Gil Thompson mould, he inherited these protocols from the previuos regime who recetly stepped aside, but i am pretty sure he will do his utmost to avoid further sanction. Thus far his CV is exemplary, he will I'm convinced fix this.

[eggc]

We import regualry, mainly by sea granted, but increasingly by air - our next shipment is due in LHR this coming Thursday evening and we'll have it in Manchester Friday all being well and we've never had to suffer the delays you mention even when goods arrive to the UK as far a field away as Heathrow. We dont bring enough in for me to be an expert on the matter but we bring enough in to have a rough idea and 48 hours after arrival is about the worst we've experienced.

As for it is not MAN's choice to attempt to redirect cargo traffic then what choice does it have if it does not, nor a handling agent, have the equipment to handle said request. Tell me I am wrong but the is nothing illegal about the lack of suitable equipment at MAN and if demand does not warrant this expensive kit sat around most of the time doing sod all then why would MAG, or a handling agent, invest in it ? In light of which if an enquiry comes in and MAN cant do it then surely MAG wanting to keep the business and suggest EMA isnt a crime ?

[pwalhx]

With reference to our esteemed contributor from Birmingham - Reading on an another site lots of people missing flights earlier due to 2.5 hours queues and we are not in peak summer yet !

Said thread on Facebook refers to 21/2 hour queues at Amsterdam and somebodies son missing a flight TO Manchester and not FROM.

[laviation]

In other news, Air Canada begin their very short summer schedule tomorrow. Omni Air 763 operating until mid-July. One thinks how much longer this route will last

[MANFOD]

With reference to our esteemed contributor from Birmingham - Reading on an another site lots of people missing flights earlier due to 2.5 hours queues and we are not in peak summer yet !

Said thread on Facebook refers to 21/2 hour queues at Amsterdam and somebodies son missing a flight TO Manchester and not FROM.

Thank you for pointing this out. I'm sure the Manchester Evening News would have been right on it had those delays been at Manchester Airport.

It would be nice if the original said poster of BHX fame would come on and apologise for his misinformation.

[BHX5DME]

Thank you for pointing this out. I'm sure the Manchester Evening News would have been right on it had those delays been at Manchester Airport.

It would be nice if the original said poster of BHX fame would come on and apologise for his misinformation.

Yes sorry I miss read the FB posting, my apologies

[Rutan16]

We import regualry, mainly by sea granted, but increasingly by air - our next shipment is due in LHR this coming Thursday evening and we'll have it in Manchester Friday all being well and we've never had to suffer the delays you mention even when goods arrive to the UK as far a field away as Heathrow. We dont bring enough in for me to be an expert on the matter but we bring enough in to have a rough idea and 48 hours after arrival is about the worst we've experienced.

As for it is not MAN's choice to attempt to redirect cargo traffic then what choice does it have if it does not, nor a handling agent, have the equipment to handle said request. Tell me I am wrong but the is nothing illegal about the lack of suitable equipment at MAN and if demand does not warrant this expensive kit sat around most of the time doing sod all then why would MAG, or a handling agent, invest in it ? In light of which if an enquiry comes in and MAN cant do it then surely MAG wanting to keep the business and suggest EMA isnt a crime ?

Manchester airport can decline an expression of interest , however may NOT suggest implied or explicitly that the customer has an alternative via a named “elsewhere” within group and specifically exercise on that.

Its up to the customer to seek alternative suppliers in the market place.

[Rutan16]

Oh my goodness, the lack of knowledge in this area really is stellar.

I hasten to add i am not singling out eggc here but more the off recurring point that seems to be corrosive that it makes "perfect business sense".

Well here's a thing I'm the import customer at the end of the chain, and its not making perfect sense to me and clearly not to a few others given Rutans observations.

I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him given others have also made the point more covertly earlier on in this thread. There was i believe a suggestion that this practice may have even allegedly instigated management changes.

The Manchester airport cargo page is positively gushing, the reality I'm sad too say in some instances is the complete opposite.

Point1) There seems to be a suggestion that freight which has routinely been redirected to EMA is simply "popped" on a lorry and with a Mary Poppins click of the fingers is available some 90 minutes later for onwards despatch from Manchester, that as Micheal O' Leary might indicate is complete xxxxxxxolgy. We are in most cases talking a min' of 48 hours and in some cases more, especially if the divert is to Stansted. Certainly if my own experience is anything to go by freight becomes bound up in a logistical log jam of customs, storage, and lorry consolidation/ availability. After these hurdles have been overcome it eventually leaves for Manchester where it is then stored again in transit waiting further pick up.

Point2 ) As Rutan has indicated it is NOT repeat NOT in Manchesters gift henceforth to potentially take an enquiry for freight bound specifically for Manchester and indicate that it should be redirected to EMA or indeed as sometimes happens Stansted.

As per the web site I'm struggling with a few of the claims.

120,000 tonnes per annum throughput stands out immediately but according to wikepedia, it is infact only 65,000 tonnes.

(Is the other 65,000 tonnes driven in by truck from other airports)? if that is the case it suggests only half of Manchester throughput is directly received at the Airport by plane. Does that not then in turn undermine the following claims ?

The World Frieght Terminal is quote "located within a two-hour drive of the cities of Birmingham, Bradford, Coventry, Hull, Leeds, Nottingham, Sheffield, Stoke and Wolverhampton. London, Glasgow and Edinburgh are within four hours".

If your imported goods have come below deck this may be true, if it was switch sold to EMA or even Stansted, well good luck with those trucking times.

"The M56 motorway forms an integral part of the regional motorway network, providing direct access to Manchester, Liverpool and the M6 motorway, with travel times of 20, 40 and 15 minutes respectively from the World Freight Terminal".

True but if your consignment again was switch sold to EMA/Stansted the location of the M56 becomes somewhat academic.

There remains a lot of civic pride for Manchester specifically from it's shareholders in Greater Manchester, we saw this when delays took hold last year and heads rolled. We also had evidence of this when the next phase of terminal development was announced in February.

I'm struggling to envisage a situation where those same shareholders "knowingly" allowed this situation to develope to the extent that a regulator has then had to step in.

The new CEO appears to be from the Gil Thompson mould, he inherited these protocols from the previuos regime who recetly stepped aside, but i am pretty sure he will do his utmost to avoid further sanction. Thus far his CV is exemplary, he will I'm convinced fix this.

Much of the Freight and cargo web page text is years out of date with very limited recent editorial . I think (no am certain the figures are a decade plus old )

[MANFOD]

Yes sorry I miss read the FB posting, my apologies

Thank you.

[eggc]

Manchester airport can decline an expression of interest , however may NOT suggest implied or explicitly that the customer has an alternative via a named “elsewhere” within group and specifically exercise on that.
Its up to the customer to seek alternative suppliers in the market place.

Well that's bonkers IMO.

[laviation]

FedEx back from end of October is a start, at least. BFS-MAN-CDG, 737-300F. Operated during silly o'clock, IIRC 0130a/0530d

[Navpi]

Well that was quick.... someone has given them the green light.

[Navpi]

Much of the Freight and cargo web page text is years out of date with very limited recent editorial . I think (no am certain the figures are a decade plus old )


I despair..........

[42psi]

It looks to me from the discussions that a few folks don't realise exactly how an airport works!

MAN is not a handling agent.

It has no steps, belt loaders, gpu's, push back tugs, hylos etc, etc.

All aircraft servicing equipment is owned/operated by the handling agents only.

If MAN gets an enquiry from an airline/aircraft operator then it can say if there is slot/stand availability and try and link the potential customer to a handling agent.

If none of the Handling agents wish to take the work then there is little MAN can do other than perhaps try and suggest one of the other group airports to try and keep the potential revenue within the group. It may well be that if the incumbent handling agents have already made clear they don't want freighter business that MAN might go straight to that in the first instance.

​​​​​​A freighter operation requiring an MDL is a significant cost unless you are a multi airport agent with equipment availability elsewhere in the network to move to MAN.
The accountants in a handling agent are unlikely to countenance the expenditure for an MDL against a one year contract. In the freighter world it's not uncommon for a new route to be tried only to fold shortly afterwards for all sorts of reasons.

FDX when they operated previously into MAN used their own staff and equipment to handle their aircraft.

MAN still has a number of stands (at the moment) with nose wheel tether points for freighter ops. But these are likely to dissappear as MANTP progresses.

From recent performance issues it seems unlikely that any of the current handling agents would have the capacity to actually take on any pure freighter operations.

On the whole many of these in the past at MAN (China/CX/Polar) have a schedule so that they can measure their delays against something. Again that's not something a handling agent want to be faced with.

At the end of the day the role of the airport can only be one of facilitating/encouraging a handling agent to take business.

In the final analysis it's a cost benefit/risk decision by the Handling agents.

[Rutan16]

Well that's bonkers IMO.

Why ?

The divisions are legally differing and competing businesses and MAG Group is a global business - Operating under GB, EU and WTO rules, various financial regulators and subject to relevant “trust” considerations including those in the USA !

Collusion falls under similar regulations covering cartel type practices - As per my earlier post being in breech of these rules can lead to very very significant fiduciary sanctions via relevant agencies and licensing authorities.

[Rutan16]

It looks to me from the discussions that a few folks don't realise exactly how an airport works!

MAN is not a handling agent.

It has no steps, belt loaders, gpu's, push back tugs, hylos etc, etc.

All aircraft servicing equipment is owned/operated by the handling agents only.

If MAN gets an enquiry from an airline/aircraft operator then it can say if there is slot/stand availability and try and link the potential customer to a handling agent.

If none of the Handling agents wish to take the work then there is little MAN can do other than perhaps try and suggest one of the other group airports to try and keep the potential revenue within the group. It may well be that if the incumbent handling agents have already made clear they don't want freighter business that MAN might go straight to that in the first instance.

​​​​​​A freighter operation requiring an MDL is a significant cost unless you are a multi airport agent with equipment availability elsewhere in the network to move to MAN.
The accountants in a handling agent are unlikely to countenance the expenditure for an MDL against a one year contract. In the freighter world it's not uncommon for a new route to be tried only to fold shortly afterwards for all sorts of reasons.

FDX when they operated previously into MAN used their own staff and equipment to handle their aircraft.

MAN still has a number of stands (at the moment) with nose wheel tether points for freighter ops. But these are likely to dissappear as MANTP progresses.

From recent performance issues it seems unlikely that any of the current handling agents would have the capacity to actually take on any pure freighter operations.

On the whole many of these in the past at MAN (China/CX/Polar) have a schedule so that they can measure their delays against something. Again that's not something a handling agent want to be faced with.

At the end of the day the role of the airport can only be one of facilitating/encouraging a handling agent to take business.

In the final analysis it's a cost benefit/risk decision by the Handling agents.

This is the bit Manchester Airport ( not MAG Group) CANNOT legally do “suggest one of the other group airports to try and keep the potential revenue within the group”

Manchester Airport can simple only decline the potential business as previous stated .

Airport can also “if they wish” discuss and potentially amend the terms (at contractually agreed times) with partner franchisees specifically the handling companies.

Its a multifaceted approach .

BTW Manchester Airport is an ACL slot controlled airport and the ONE THING the airport authority can NOT offer are slots !

[42psi]

This is the bit Manchester Airport ( not MAG Group) CANNOT legally do “suggest one of the other group airports to try and keep the potential revenue within the group”

Manchester Airport can simple only decline the potential business as previous stated .

Airport can also “if they wish” discuss and potentially amend the terms (at contractually agreed times) with partner franchisees specifically the handling companies.

Its a multifaceted approach .

BTW Manchester Airport is an ACL slot controlled airport and the ONE THING the airport authority can NOT offer are slots !


Appreciate what you say, I was trying to simplify the explanation as many contributors to this discussion seem way off the mark.

I think you'll find the commercial business generation is actually a group function, not an individual airport one. So consulting with a customer and informing them where its likely they will get the service they require is appropriate.

As for ammending the Handling agent agreement, yes that can be ammended and in recent years attempts have/are being made on various aspects.
But...... you can't amend it in a way that damages either party, no-one wins from that.

As for slots, perhaps poorly worded I guess. I'm not suggesting they "offer" slots, but a natural part part of the sequence is always going to be establishing if slots are available.

[Rutan16]

Appreciate what you say, I was trying to simplify the explanation as many contributors to this discussion seem way off the mark.

I think you'll find the commercial business generation is actually a group function, not an individual airport one. So consulting with a customer and informing them where its likely they will get the service they require is appropriate.

As for ammending the Handling agent agreement, yes that can be ammended and in recent years attempts have/are being made on various aspects.
But...... you can't amend it in a way that damages either party, no-one wins from that.

As for slots, perhaps poorly worded I guess. I'm not suggesting they "offer" slots, but a natural part part of the sequence is always going to be establishing if slots are available.

Quote

think you'll find the commercial business generation is actually a group function, not an individual airport one. So consulting with a customer and informing them where its likely they will get the service they require is appropriate.

MAG Group can and do promote the functions of the differing businesses and several other businesses which are not core aviation or even UK related, however each business must act independently that’s the legal bit.

As you might have noticed I have explicitly stated Manchester Airport in all comments and at certain junctions caveated ( not MAG Group) - They are two differing legal entities .

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As for ammending the Handling agent agreement, yes that can be ammended and in recent years attempts have/are being made on various aspects.
But...... you can't amend it in a way that damages either party, no-one wins from that.

Whilst the terms of the franchises and awards are considered confidential there will be clauses, quality and delivery benchmarks .
In recent times I think the airport has allowed the handlers far too much leeway on their delivery and indeed their offering - Indeed I might go as far as saying their are evidently conflicts of interest between these “partners”

Is it up to the handlers to dictate which airlines and services Manchester Airport negotiate with - I call no it isn’t ( opinion)

In the case of Manchester Airport ground handling has been done by contractors for about as long as I can remember, with BEA/ Briitish Airways and Serviceair through the sixties , seventies and Menzies, DNATA, DHL, SWISSPORT and even self handlers such as Jet2 today.

That said I think that the new broom driving Manchester Airport seems to have more energy than has been seen for quite sometime and that “may” include recovering and promoting the place of cargo within the local portfolio.

[42psi]

[QUOTE=Rutan16;11452729]Quote

In the case of Manchester Airport ground handling has been done by contractors for about as long as I can remember, with BEA/ Briitish Airways and Serviceair through the sixties , seventies and Menzies, DNATA, DHL, SWISSPORT and even self handlers such as Jet2 today.
/QUOTE]

Ground handling as such was carried out by the airport itself (as was the catering loading) until into the 90s.

Handling agents were limited to check in/dispatch etc.
Alpha provided the catering but airport staff drove the trucks, collected it and delivered to/loaded it onto aircraft.
All freight/baggage handling/airbridge driving was carried out solely by the airport in house handling.
Pushback were generally done by engineers, such as Dan Air.

Following the industrial dispute the airlines affected started efforts to get that changed and were successful.

That resulted in the formation of Ringway Handling in August 1991 from the in house baggage section) which became a stand alone subsidiary of MA Plc at the same time as ramp handling was opened up to the Handling agents.

[Navpi]

It looks to me from the discussions that a few folks don't realise exactly how an airport works!

MAN is not a handling agent.

It has no steps, belt loaders, gpu's, push back tugs, hylos etc, etc.

All aircraft servicing equipment is owned/operated by the handling agents only.

If MAN gets an enquiry from an airline/aircraft operator then it can say if there is slot/stand availability and try and link the potential customer to a handling agent.

If none of the Handling agents wish to take the work then there is little MAN can do other than perhaps try and suggest one of the other group airports to try and keep the potential revenue within the group. It may well be that if the incumbent handling agents have already made clear they don't want freighter business that MAN might go straight to that in the first instance.

​​​​​​A freighter operation requiring an MDL is a significant cost unless you are a multi airport agent with equipment availability elsewhere in the network to move to MAN.

The accountants in a handling agent are unlikely to countenance the expenditure for an MDL against a one year contract. In the freighter world it's not uncommon for a new route to be tried only to fold shortly afterwards for all sorts of reasons.

FDX when they operated previously into MAN used their own staff and equipment to handle their aircraft.

MAN still has a number of stands (at the moment) with nose wheel tether points for freighter ops. But these are likely to dissappear as MANTP progresses.

From recent performance issues it seems unlikely that any of the current handling agents would have the capacity to actually take on any pure freighter operations.

On the whole many of these in the past at MAN (China/CX/Polar) have a schedule so that they can measure their delays against something. Again that's not something a handling agent want to be faced with.

At the end of the day the role of the airport can only be one of facilitating/encouraging a handling agent to take business.

In the final analysis it's a cost benefit/risk decision by the Handling agents.

Sorry I disagree vehemently, i think you are looking at this slightly one eyed specifically from the agents perspective, whereas everyone else with a wider economic remit to the region as a whole, is seeing this with a different vision of what Manchester Airport needs to offer.

I reference the comments below all made a few months ago by some pretty influential business parties and Politicians across the North of England.

I have linked in the article when the extention of the Transformation Programme was announced this year.

https://mediacentre.manchesterairport.co.uk/mag-announces-440m-investment-in-final-phase-of-13bn-manchester-airport-transformation-programme/

Yes these comments were made at the launch of the 2nd phase of the MANTP but anyone who thinks they don't relate to pure flown cargo as well as passengers is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land.

They are robust in their delivery !

"Manchester, is The Global gateway for the North"

"Connnectivity to the Worlds most important economic markets is paramount"

"As the international gateway to the North of England, Manchester Airport acts as a critical player in our economy, supporting thousands of jobs and unlocking billions in economic value by facilitating tourism, trade and investment". “Manchester Airport is a massive asset to our city region, connecting those living and working here to global destinations, as well as helping attract visitors, tourists and inward investment".

"Having this global connectivity is a major competitive advantage for Manchester".

“Manchester Airport has an integral role in the North’s economy, connecting us with the rest of the world and supporting businesses who export goods and services overseas".

“‘Manchester Airport is an essential transport hub for the North West – it connects us to key markets".

"Manchester Airport is critical to so many north Cheshire businesses both for business travel and for freight and as it continues to attract new airlines and open up new routes".

"Manchester Airport’s status as a genuine gateway to the rest of the world and will unlock tourist and commercial traffic opportunities now and in the future.”

I suspect jaws would be on the floor if you suggested to any of them that an enquiry to operate a pure freight into Manchester for a local exporter was met with a.....

"Ah sorry when we said Global Gateway we actually only meant passengers or underbelly freight we cannot actually handle pure freight imports and exports but tell you what , we do have options, we have two sister airports, one in the Midlands and one in Essex, where we are happy to facilitate your requirements".

Can you imagine what the Politicians, Councillors, Chief executives, Policy makers, and Business Leaders referecing Manchester as A Global Gateway would make of that....?

Manchester Airport is first and foremost the Global Gateway for the North, that has to include pure freight, therefore there has to be a way to square this circle to the benefit of all parties, agents MAG, and business.

[SWBKCB]

i think you are looking at this slightly one eyed

Pot calling the kettle black here. You're putting an awfull lot of credence in puff pieces. Do you really think cargo cares if it arrives in a pure freighters or as underbelly freight?

MAN was fourth biggest in the UK in terms of air freight volumes in 2022 - not too shabby.