BIRMINGHAM - 6

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Couple of corrections to your post on MAEL.
MAEL does not have any contract for TUI with regards to the B787, it may visit the BHX hangar if TUI need a hangar prior to H61 at Luton being modified.
MAEL are not the only Boeing 787 gold star facility outside the US either.

[nigel osborne]

Mr Spotty,

Thank you for the clarifications on MAEL and Boeing Gold Care.

Thomson have just extended their maintenance contract with MAEL , but it shows only for 757/767 types and at present anyway not 787s.

News Details (http://www.monarchaircraftengineering.com/News/Details/122)

I am sure the new BHX MAEL hangar will be a great asset and be well used.This including 787s under the Boeing Gold care scheme.

Nigel

[Doors to Automatic]

Nigel - the master plan I saw called for a rapid exit taxiway just past the fire station, giving about as much landing run on the extended 33 as the current runway length gives to taxiway B. Are you saying this is no longer to be built? Does that mean all aircraft will still have to roll to B, a further 400m than now? T is too close to the 33 threshold (even with the extension) to be of any real use.

[nigel osborne]

Doors to automatic,

Don't forget with the runway extension more planes will be able to vacate at T landing 33,

The master plan goes to 2030 so I expect nearer that date other turn offs can be added when needed.

BHX is not going to spend any more money on a turn it currently doesn't need at present.
Nigel

[nigel osborne]

MAEL facility,

Amazing that they got all 3 MON A300-600Rs into the new BHX hangar at the same time yesterday with relative ease !

Nigel

[Flightmech]

You can add FedEx and some easyjet work amongst others to the above MAEL list.

FedEx A300-600 B & C checks are carried out at MAEL LTN and B757 B checks at MAEL MAN.

[GayFriendly]

OP - are the A3 BHX-ATH flights only released on GDS at present? They're not available to book on the Aegean website yet. Am very keen to book as am going to a wedding there in June, really glad I hadn't booked up already to go from LHR!

Great to see the MAEL hangar finally open for business, would be nice to think in the future that some of the potential airline visitors and aircraft types might fly into BHX from a host of new destinations with pax on board as well as simply coming in empty to be fixed!

[Doors to Automatic]

Nigel - T is going to be tight for most planes apart from maybe the Flybe Dash 8s. A turn halfway between T and B, opposite the old taxiway to the old 06/24 and terminal would be ideal. I am guessing that 33 will still be a displaced threshold?

[OltonPete]

GF

Confirmed GDS and some more public sites but you won't want to book yet going by the initial prices :eek:

I am sure it will all settle down once the formal announcement is made.

Pete

[getonittt]

Doors to Automatic - Yes you are quite right there is taxiway showing on the proposed plans that were drawn up some time ago. There is also some really crazy stuff on there like a people mover connecting from the NEC to the eurohub as well as the existing main terminal and also more aircraft stands on the long stay car park behind where the fuel farm is now. And , of course, there is No MAEL development on these plans, just an area for ancillary car parking where the hangar is now. This current phase of works does not involve a new turn off between T & B .

[nigel osborne]

Flightmech.

Will be interesting how MAEL now allocate airlines to its 3 facilities.Will they keep airlines using LTN and MAN or swap them around to include BHX.I suspect the MON A300s would have gone to MAN/LTN normally.

Or will BHX get new airline contracts.

I assume MAEL will want to keep all 3 as busy as possible ?

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

Or will BHX get new airline contracts.

I assume MAEL will want to keep all 3 as busy as possible ?


I would imagine all 3 will continue to get a mix of all contracts and aircraft put in where the lowest workload in.
For example just because BHX can house 10 A320 at the same time doesn't automatically mean work can be done on all 10 at the same time. It will depend on staffing levels etc.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

It is not only staffing levels, the amount of equipment and tooling also comes into play.
nigel osborne Boeing Gold Care is a bit of a white Elephant, it has only one customer and that is Norwegian, which MAEL has not input, apart from shipping its 787 jacks a week ago for Boeing Gold Care to use.

[insuindi]

not sure if previously mentioned, during Summer 2014 Sundays will be a bit more colourful with TUIfly (X3) doing a one-weekly PMI-BHX-PMI rotation (assumingly marketed by Thomson).

TUIfly Adds New UK ? Palma Mallorca Service in S14 | Airline Route (http://airlineroute.net/2013/10/03/x3-uk-s14/)

[insuindi]

Germanwings reduced TXL-BHX down to 4/7 for most of winter (1,3,5,7)/from late Dec, with an odd extra frequency here and there.

for Summer still 6/7 planned.

[nigel osborne]

Mr Spotty,

Not quite correct TUI have also signed for Boeing goldcare;

Boeing Launches 787 GoldCare Service With TUI Travel PLC - Apr 13, 2010 (http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=20295&item=1158)

TUI Travel launch customer for Boeing GoldCare (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tui-travel-launch-customer-for-boeing-goldcare-340548/)

Think you are also a bit early to write it off as a white elephant := when only 81 787s have been delivered so far across the entire World !!

I have no doubt they will be visiting MAEL in numbers in the future including BHX

Nigel

[hatters united]

Nigel

That was dated 2010...things change and I am fairly sure reading that TUI have since cancelled the aggreement.

However I think you will find that mr@spottyM is going to know far more than yourself or myself on matters regarding Monarch and MAEL !!

[nigel osborne]

Thanks Hatters United,

I better keep quiet then on MAEL internal stuff then :ooh:

Nigel

[hammerb32]

Biman plans biweekly flights to New York by April | STOCK & CORPORATE | Financial Express :: Financial Newspaper of Bangladesh (http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/new/2013/11/08/2855)

Believe it when I see it given the stop start episodes up at MAN, interesting quote though that BHX were making a better commercial offer, I take this as BHX offering a lower fee than MAN.

[ATNotts]

hammerb32

Well, it's probably a more reliable source than airliners.net! Also note the release date - 08.11.2013 at 00:00. Looks like someone has jumped the gun by a few hours. (Stupid of me, it was probably embargoed until mid-night local time)

Obviously there's a long time between now and April, and a lot can happen - but if it comes off then it'll be the long haul announcement that many BHX people were hoping for to coincide with the R/W extension opening.

Fingers tightly crossed - though I expect there are a few working in passenger services who might not be quite so enthusiastic?

[bhx bod]

That is more like it.It goes quiet for ages then everything goes mad.
THY double daily,Aegean 2xweekly,now possibly Biman 2xweekly.Early days yet,but I have always thought that BHX should concentrate on niche routes,particularly when considering the many ethnic groups in the midlands.
Let's hope it is confirmed soon.:ok:

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Sorry to say TUI cancelled the Gold Care contract around Feb 2012. :{

[nigel osborne]

Mr Spotty,

Oh shucks ,perhaps 1 less for BHX then. :sad:

I take it the 787 will fit in the LTN hangar, has a much bigger span than a MON A300 ,or have similar span aircraft (772) been in it before ?

Nigel

[hatters united]

Nigel.
When the Thomson 787's go in for maintenance at Luton I believe that they will be using the Thomson Hanger and not the Monarch pair. I think I am right in saying that you can get 2 767-300 in the hanger together.

[nigel osborne]

Hatters United,

Thanks for the info on the LTN hangar,

Nigel

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Yes Thomson have made the decision that H61 will be modified, this to enable the B787 to be maintained by Thomson in house.
What l read is that this will be completed by November 2014.
Neither of the two MAEL hangars at Luton can take the B787 without modifications.
The fact is at the moment the BHX hangar is the only MAEL hangar that can be truly called a fully B787 maintenance facility.

[hatters united]

Mr@spottyM.
Do you know what alterations are required to H61 ? It is a very large hangar and did take the Tristars at one time.

I would have thought if 2 767's can be fitted in together there would be no issue for a single Dreamliner.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

The issue is not the size as such, it is how the interior is decked out.
I believe they had two bays with docking and in between the bays an area that housed various offices or stores.
That does not work if you want to bring in an a/c with a greater wing span.
If the hangar was just open planned you would not have an issue.
Hopefully someone who works at TOM may be able to give a better description of what they are doing.

[spottilludrop]

Will the old hangers at luton now be gradually run down as this new mega hangar comes on line?

[hatters united]

Thanks Mr@SpottyM, I had thought that the hangar was open plan so access would not be a problem. It has been a number of years since I've been in H61 though.

[justplanecrazy84]

WORLD ROUTES: Birmingham Airport and Trinidad & Tobago Airports Authority to Sign MOU :: Routesonline (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/222376/world-routes-birmingham-airport-and-trinidad-amp-tobago-airports-authority-to-sign-mou/)

Could TOM start more flights to the Caribbean or even VS??

[All names taken]

Meaningless.
Airports don't start flights. Airlines do

[chinapattern]

What are the actual benefits of being sister airports when there is no direct air link between the two? And when there is come to that? Birmingham and Chicago have been twin cities for years but there hasn't been direct flights between the two for over ten years now so I'm struggling to understand the concept of it all. Funny that this comes to light just as MAN announces Condor are launching Trinidad next summer and AA soon to announce the re-launch of MAN-MIA with a strong emphasis on the Caribbean connections.

[SWBKCB]

A cynical person might suggest that the twinning might involve fact finding missions by senior managers

[nigel osborne]

China pattern,

Re BHX- Chicago twinning..it hasn't been "years" as you say in fact just over 12 months !

Although I agree that city tie ups do little to initiate new flights, it is a start I suppose.

Feel free to promote MANs new route to Tobago and possibly a restart to Miami,however to try and link these to BHX twinning efforts is a bit silly.

I would not be surprised if BHX does return to getting flights to Chicago in the next 12-18 months.

Justplanecrazy.

Would Virgin be interested in BHX. Well they did say that they would relook at BHX once the runway was extended, so Id never say never,and BHX is very short of Orlando capacity, do they have enough planes though ?

Nigel

[Skipness One Echo]

Nigel who do you see operating? It could only realistically be United or American, although the B757s are being withdrawn at speed at AA.

City twinning is usually nothing more than a junket for the local "politicians" and mostly had nothing to do with commercial decisions.

[chinapattern]

BHX- Chicago twinning..it hasn't been "years" as you say in fact just over 12
months !


Crikey, I'd have said at least five years!

Feel free to promote MANs new route to Tobago and possibly a restart to Miami,however to try and link these to BHX twinning efforts is a bit silly.

I was just pointing out that BHX often has a habit of releasing rather meaningless PR stories to detract from the factt that not much else is happening; whereas MAN just appears to be getting on and securing these routes at the moment. And as already stated it's airlines that launch routes, not airports.


I would not be surprised if BHX does return to getting flights to Chicago in the
next 12-18 months.

Now people have been saying that for years! But would like to think it will happen.

[hammerb32]

Nigel - Birmingham and Chicago have been twinned cities for decades, is it the tie up between the aiports you're referring to as just over 12 months ago?

The English town of Towcester is twinned with the French town of Breville....

[LAX_LHR]

Nigel,

I thought the comparison between BHX's twinning and the new MAN route was valid.

BHX announces a twinning in the hope of getting a route to Tobago, yet MAN just gets out there and gets the route.
Same with ORD, BHX twins in the hope if a route, EDI just got out there and got the route.

Sometimes talk can be good, but then other times it can just be long winded when other airports just announce the route without all this 'negotiation/twinning' bluster.

[justplanecrazy84]

The reason I posted it was because it mentions that the midlands has a large Caribbean diaspora which made me ask the question about the demand for more flights to the Caribbean from BHX and who would could/would start them.

[chinapattern]

justplanecrazy84

I agree that BHX-Caribbean is an underserved market; sadly though TOMs long haul programme has stagnated at BHX in recent years, TCX are focusing on MAN so unless Virgin reconsider their position the only other candidate as far as I can see would be....Caribbean Airlines???

LAX/LHR


Sometimes talk can be good, but then other times it can just be long winded when other airports just announce the route without all this
'negotiation/twinning' bluster.


Surprised we're not twinned with Beijing yet! :)

[getonittt]

Surprised we're not twinned with Beijing yet

Well not far off , Wolverhampton is twinned with Ulaan Baatar in Mongolia so they must be lobbying for flights into Halfpenny green ...Aren't they???

Twinned cities, Twinned airports mean diddly squat .

[LAX_LHR]

Surprised we're not twinned with Beijing yet!


MAN has been twinned with PEK airport for something like 2 years and has proved fruitless so far. BHX has been twinned with ORD for 1 year and nothing. Meanwhile LGW gained a PEK link without twinning (since gone again) and EDI has gained ORD with no twinning. Ironically the MAN-TAB route was announced at the very same event that BHX announced its twinning with TAB. Says it all really.

Unless twinned airports offer something like zero fees at both ends and a forecast of strong demand, I just don't see what it achieves.

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR.

I think BHX will take what it can get.Therefore its twinning was more of a PR thing, perhaps to justify padding out a bit of spare time during the trip

Always far easier for MAN to get Tobago anyway as they already have Virgin and TCX long haul !

I dismiss the importance of EDI flts, as the Scottish Govt throws so much money at it, always hard to see if there is an equal business case therefore.

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

I dismiss the importance of EDI flts, as the Scottish Govt throws so much
money at it, always hard to see if there is an equal business case therefore


How can you just 'dismiss' a flight?
Scotland is still part of the UK, so therefore subject to similar rules of funding as BHX nd its councils, as far as Im aware.

Put it this way, with all the PR of this 'twin cities', the chance to offer zero/next to nothing fees at both ends, and this such obvious demand for a BHX-ORD flight, what exactly is stopping UA, who already operate to BHX, have the ideal aircraft (B757), opening the route?

[nigel osborne]

Skipness,

Yes good point ,I feel with the 757s being run down at ORD it would have to be a 763. American operated that type from BHX before for some time, after starting with 762s.

Also a bit tight range wise on a 757 westbound from BHX.

The route was problematic at timesin the summer, as temps over 70f lead to some freight being offloaded to make the plane light enough for the runway length.

The point I make here is with the runway extension I feel that a 763 would have to be packed with freight to make such a service viable again ,now fuel prices are so much higher.

However I think it will happen, BHX are confident, and they brought AI back when many doubted it.

Nigel

[Skipness One Echo]

It's not that BHX brought Air India back, it's more that the magic drunken Indian dartboard of route planning alighted on the spot marked BHX. A US legacy needs to be a commercial proposition.
Air India bought a whole fleet of B777-237LRs then closed the routes they bought them for, reducing one to spares. They're like Kingfisher, only with a bigger subsidy. Now great to see AI B787s but be careful not to compare apples with pears. ORD would needs a United B752 or a B763 from American or UA. American are pretty unlikely as times have changed and the last time CO upped capacity it kicked the route into a loss.

Also I am keen to know what money the Scottish government is "throwing at" at EDI given the Route Development Fund is long gone. Can you assist?

[nigel osborne]

Skipness,

You do really make me laugh please don't change very entertaining :)

In relation to your comments on Air India who cares the load factors are excellent from BHX :ok:

Nigel

[justplanecrazy84]

Airport Spotting Blog » Blog Archive » Details of final Biman DC-10 flights (http://www.airportspotting.com/details-final-biman-dc10-flights/)

Possibly a stop off at MAN or BHX.

[chinapattern]

Aren't those DC-10s banned in the UK?

[justplanecrazy84]

According to that link they're not lol

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Biman plans biweekly flights to New York by April | STOCK & CORPORATE | Financial Express :: Financial Newspaper of Bangladesh (http://www.thefinancialexpress-bd.com/new/2013/11/08/2855)

Believe it when I see it given the stop start episodes up at MAN, interesting quote though that BHX were making a better commercial offer, I take this as BHX offering a lower fee than MAN.

Some light popcorn reading by way of the responses/strops. :rolleyes:

[nigel osborne]

Justplanecrazy,

Their CEO says BHX not MAN

https://www.biman-airlines.com/about/news?id=46e17663-312b-46ba-93d6-3d7e508f36b8

Nigel

[justplanecrazy84]

Thanks for the update Nigel! I thought it would be BHX with all the talk of them starting flights.

[justplanecrazy84]

I heard something very interesting last night when watching bbc midlands today they said the midlands have the biggest population of Philippines in the country!

Now that would be an interesting addition to the airport!

[All names taken]

6,000 of them!
Most on the minimum wage.
Time to get real.
Suitable vfr facilities already exist from the Midlands - Emirates.

[justplanecrazy84]

Get real about what??

[chaps2011]

If you are thinking Philippine airlines forget it

Chaps

[SFOBHX]

Twice weekly using B773ER 419 pax starting Spring 2014 bookable from Dec. 20th. More in the press shortly.:D

[GayFriendly]

SFOBHX - where have you read this service is confirmed to start? Please post the link. Planning to start a service (as being reported by anna aero) is very different to actually starting a service. There is nothing confirmed about BHX on the Biman website. I have read that Biman only have Category 2 FAA clearance for U.S ops which means right now they would need to operate said service on a wet leased basis with aircraft coming from a U.S or European carrier.

Having said all of that, anna aero were spot on about AI so I would now be more surprised if this service doesn't materialise next year.

Whilst this service would undoubtedly be a coup for BHX (JFK back on departure screens and first ever BHX-Bangladesh flights snatched from under the nose of MAN :ok:), I do hope that the runway extension will also see higher frequency flights to new, non Indian sub-continent worldwide hub destinations - AUH or DOH in the Middle East and ATL or ORD in the U.S. The kind of US transit services as proposed by Biman through BHX have never lasted that long, I think PIA ISB-BHX-YYZ lasted a couple of years? ISB-BHX-ORD was a flash in the pan as was TAS-BHX-JFK by Uzbek. Lets hope Biman break that mould :)

[Skipness One Echo]

It's not a coup it's a joke! (I know what you're getting at but Biman?)
Even with B77Ws, their OTP remains poor and they will need to pay for an EU operator to lease one of their aircraft to operate it as the US still class the country as too risky.

Who on Earth is going to book Bangladesh Airlines for a trip to the US? United may sleep easy I would say.

Having said that, it's a decent livery and worth getting some pics if they do show up. While you can :)

[3315]

It is official lets remember we all can't say how we obtain info on here but All I can say is give it a few days And you will see all the official commercial launching and advertising that you need.

[nigel osborne]

Skipness,

Was your criticism of Biman the same when they flew into MAN ,can remember a number of posts praising it when they announced and flew from MAN, although not sure any were from you.

Agree nice livery.

A BHX delegation just returned once again from China 2 visits in 3 months..JLR more exports to China from B'ham than anywhere else in the country..hmm

threw that in on purpose so can have another classic from you similar to a drunken Indian throwing a dart which landed on BHX. One about the chances of China from you please :) lol.

Nigel

[justplanecrazy84]

Lol @ Nigel!

As for my post about Philippines all I said was that would be an interesting addition to the airport like it would be for other airports I never once said it will or even might happen!

[nigel osborne]

Justplanecrazy

Yes , all you say is it would be an interesting proposition.

We could do with a morning Atlanta and Chicago, we will be top heavy with long hauls in the evening now :)

Certainly not ruling out a Chinese carrier either in the next 12-18 months.

Nigel

[Monty Gordo]

Walking into the NEC last week did notice large signs put there with the e-address of thenec.co.uk which read: NEC - Best connected venue in the UK - Munich/Paris/New York/Zurich/Dubai. It then added 'Los Angeles/Beijing from 2014'.

Do THEY know something?

[CabinCrewe]

I would very much doubt it. If there were to be any new long haul ex BHX I dont think it would be those.

[LAX_LHR]

I struggle to see who would operate BHX-LAX. United cant even keep daily year round ops to Newark, and its really only them or American out of the US carriers that would operate LAX.

There is more chance of hell freezing over than BA/VS starting BHX-LAX in 2014.

The NEC boards were probably PR guff referring to the runway extension opening with the potential to reach those points non-stop.

[nigel osborne]

Monty Gordo

Think BHX would see a Chinese flight before LA, don't think even MAN or LGW have that direct.

Interesting though.

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

LGW will have a direct flight to LAX next year courtesy of Norwegian.

United have talked about MAN-SFO in the recent past, but, I think it will be a long long time before a non-London airprt sees a direct west coast link (barring Vancouver but I doubt that counts even if it is just across the bay from Seattle)
Vegas is about as far as UK regionals will go.

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR

Disagree about the advertising boards, it would probably brake rules to advertise destinations that were not going to see a service from BHX as you suggest.

I would therefore say the most likely would be a connecting flight with a code share via an existing hub.

However as I say Im not ruling out China, but LA I agree with you.

Nigel

[justplanecrazy84]

I think we will see Vegas before LAX

[LAX_LHR]

Disagree about the advertising boards, it would probably brake rules to advertise destinations that were not going to see a service from BHX as you suggest.

I agree it would be wrong of them to do so, but, companies break advertising rules all of the time, so the NEC would not be the first to fall foul of such rulings.

I would therefore say the most likely would be a connecting flight with a code share via an existing hub

But, if it were a codeshare via an existing hub, then why advertise from 2014 onwards, if it is an existing hub then surely that link already exists?

[LAX_LHR]

I think we will see Vegas before LAX


Vegas is ripe for the taking if BHX plays its cards right.

TCX have recently started a programme whereby they invite bids from airports for a W pattern route, and will select 2 European routes out of those bids.

Therefore BHX could bid for BHX-LAS, and if successful, TCX would then run something like MAN-LAS-BHX-LAS-MAN.

There will obviously be a lot of competition, and if the recent travel trade show is anything to go by, it seems DUB has won the first slot for a Cancun flight.

[groundhogbhx]

Connections to LAX and PEK do already exist, UA to LAX and EK to PEK (and both do connections to many other cities in those countries!).

[Monty Gordo]

For those of you who are close, take a look. If i am right I think there are two hoardings in the walkway closest to the airport.

The messages, such as they are, are certainly not small. It's not as if the NEC is 'hiding a light under a bushel'.

[Burpbot]

You have to remember the NEC is already very well connected to the world! Sadly BHX barely figure in the said connections, with most arriving from LHR via the NEC rail link ;)

Or MAN if they are roughing it :p

[Skipness One Echo]

Ok what Chinese airline and to where? Hainan possibly as no London presence?

Current LHR for comparison :
BA LHR-PEK and LHR-PVG
VS LHR-PVG A346
CA LHR-PEK B77W
MU LHR-PVG A332 days 2 4 67
CZ LHR-CAN B788

CA LGW-PEK A322 summer only

Ruling out BA and VS, which would you see using BHX before a London expansion? UK-West Coast US is hard to make money on outside more money than sense London as connections are cheaper over one stop East Coast hubs. Vegas is the new Amsterdam /Prague for misbehaving gentleman so works on a non daily basis.

In terms of long haul, BHX is currently the LGW of the North, too close to LHR.

[LAX_LHR]

Just incase no-one looks upon the Dublin thread, Ryanair have just announced that as part of an overall increase in Dublin flights, BHX-DUB will rise from 3 daily to 4 daily.

[insuindi]

EDIT - misread press release, and assumed it would become 8 daily flights each way :D

[getonittt]

In terms of long haul, BHX is currently the LGW of the North, too close to LHR :zzz:

Normally we have these kind of posts when nothing is happening , but actually there is alot happening and surely there will be more to come.

CA LGW-PEK A322 summer only

A slot warming exercise for when the BHX service will be announced :}

Seriously though, why the heck would a service like that be seasonal?

In any case i think MAN would win the race if a UK regional airport-china link was up for grabs but i'm only 60/40 so as has been said we will have wait and see.

[nigel osborne]

Skipness,

I believe BHX have visited the same airline for talks 3 times in total now so they have their eye on one in particular it seems.I won't name them..

However I agree not much capacity by any Chinese Airline to the UK. That should change as our Govt start talks in Jan with the Chinese to lift the limit from 31 departures to China a week.

Will it benefit BHX and MAN..well BA alone say they want to operate to 7 new Chinese routes from LHR.. we may both have to pick up whats left.

However for BHX the fact that the Chinese President included a visit to Birmingham and BHX with members of the Chinese committee ,(with their 747 parked up here), and a trade delegation and not MAN could well mean BHX is in with a serious shout.

Especially as its the President or his direct committee who has to rubber stamp any new airline agreements.

We shall see :)

Nigel

[chaps2011]

Yes Nigel but it`s the Chinese who are pumping a lot of money into Manchester
airport and as MAG have already stated they plan to have a Chinese operation
in next 18 months subject the bi-laterals so both have very good claims

Chaps

[nigel osborne]

Chaps 2011

Yes agree ,a lot going into the new Man Airport business enterprise and also into numerous West Mid ones too including JLR and the Chinese having a JLR plant built over there too.

BHX has also said they want a Chinese Airline in the near future.So as you say both BHX and MAN have good shouts.

We will have to wait and see, perhaps London will get the lot :{

Nigel

[GayFriendly]

I'm sure both airports WANT services to China! It's all very well to get excited about the possibility flights from BHX to China but no one has yet thought about where exactly these flights will go to. We are after all talking about the fourth largest country in the world in terms of square kilometres. China is in fact only just shy of being geographically bigger than the whole of Europe.....

The main commercial rationale offered in support of flights from BHX to China on here seems to mostly hang on the JLR/motor industry connection. Where exactly do JLR do business in China in terms of factories and production lines? If not PEK, PVG or HKG I am not sure service to another less well known city will be viable. LHR currently only has non stop service to four Chinese cities and word on the grapevine is that the latest route by BA to Chengdu is not at present loading up very well at all.

Just how many JLR/motor industry staff travel to/from China from BHX on a monthly basis - an A330 or 777 are big birds to fill on what will be primarily O&D traffic alone, even on as little as a twice weekly basis.

There is also renegotiation of the bilateral to think about - personally I think the majority of any extra flights allowed will be out of LHR with BHX and MAN being left to fight over the few slot crumbs left.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a BHX-China service but I'm just thinking of other factors that could affect the chances of such a service starting. Then again who would have thought there would be a double daily BHX-DXB 25 years ago??

[Centre cities]

Then again who would have thought that there would only be one flight per day (less in the winter) to the USA all those years ago.

Centre cities

[GayFriendly]

Centre cities - sadly too true......EDI will have more trans-Atlantic departures to the US and Canada than BHX in summer 2014. Considering their long haul aspirations, the lack of flights across the pond from BHX is somewhat of an embarrassment.

Article in Manchester Evening News about a new 5 year deal signed between MAG and Monarch, alluding to flights starting from STN as well as expansion at EMA. Hope this doesn't affect their expansion at BHX which so far for S14 seems very muted so far, just HRG added.

[nigel osborne]

Gayfriendly,

Re Monarch and MAG,

You seem to forget MAN has lost the A300s thats one hell of a lot of seats to make up, so you will need double that number of new based A320s needed just to make up for that let alone increases in passengers.


Secondly we will have to see if the muted increases are actually that or in fact charters turning into sched flights.

Anyway as this is supposed to be a BHX thread can we get back to Birmingham issues folks !

Nigel

[crewmeal]

You may find that as JLR/MG expand their market in the coming months and years then a Chinese will indeed start a regular service into BHX, but in the form of a freighter.

Every carrier will ask the same old question is there significant potential for a route to XYZ? If there is then it will start one, if not it won't. These days carriers do not want to invest in white elephants, even if cities or councils etc twin with others. All the talk of twinning BHX and POS is nice and promotes possible traffic, but no carrier will hurry to start the route anytime soon. BHX and ORD has been mentioned before and there is still nothing on the cards.
It's all pipe dreams for the spotters on various forums.

[ATNotts]

EDI will have more trans-Atlantic departures to the US and Canada than BHX in summer 2014.

Yes, but remember, first Edinburgh is a Capital city, and attracts a lot of US / Canadian originating tourists. There are also a lot of social connections between Scotland and the USA / Canada.

Also, think on, BHX has long haul services which continue to grow, going east - EDI has none.

The world's economy is moving east, and if I were BHX, prestigious though connections to the USA undoubtedly are, I'd be looking towards the real areas of global growth - China, India and the rest of the far east and subcontinent, which it seams is exactly what BHX seems to be doing.

Look around your house, how many objects to you find "made in USA" versus how many you find "made in China", Bangladesh or, India and ask yourself where BHX needs to position itself.

[GayFriendly]

AT Notts

You are right, the world economy is moving east - and the AI service to Delhi is a good foothold for business in that market. I still think that BHX could support more T/A but EDI as you say has more pull as a tourist destination for North Americans.

No services east from EDI at the mo, although TK is a start - but would not rule that out in the future although that rumour has been going as long on that thread as QR has at BHX.......

As for objects round the house, I think the argument should be 'how many can you find made in the UK' sadly the answer being not that many although that is a subject for a completely different type of forum.......

Nigel, yes it's the BHX thread but you can't simply stick your head in the sand and ignore things going on at other airports that may affect ops/growth at BHX or be used as a discussion point for something happening/not happening at BHX - that's what BHX seemingly did when BA held sway and look what happened there ;)

[BobBHX]

A route to China need not be primarily O&D. Recently several Chinese airlines have been publishing aggressively priced fares in business class for travel to SEA and Australia (not sure what their Y fares are like). China Southern has had some real bargains to SYD ex BHX via AMS (KL) and CAN.

[Skipness One Echo]

A route to China need not be primarily O&D. Recently several Chinese airlines have been publishing aggressively priced fares in business class for travel to SEA and Australia (not sure what their Y fares are like). China Southern has had some real bargains to SYD ex BHX via AMS (KL) and CAN.
CZ seem to be going for volume and market share on Europe - East, however I suspect they're not exactly making money. They even have A380s, for some reason not yet clear to anyone....
China, India and the rest of the far east and subcontinent, which it seams is exactly what BHX seems to be doing.
Excellent point, the only issue is the stability and profitability, although in many cases that will come.

[splash&dash]

One for the spotters out there-
Reference to potential BHX-china flights, wouldn't a 'combi' style aircraft be more suitable or even possible? Do any Chinese carriers possess combi 777, 787 or 330s?
In regards to possible JLR/MG freight, with a combi you can have the best of both worlds whilst reducing the large amount of seats for pax.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

One for the spotters out there-
Reference to potential BHX-china flights, wouldn't a 'combi' style aircraft be more suitable or even possible? Do any Chinese carriers possess combi 777, 787 or 330s?
In regards to possible JLR/MG freight, with a combi you can have the best of both worlds whilst reducing the large amount of seats for pax.

No such thing as a 777,787 or A330 Combi.

The last was the B744M which is flying with KLM.

Passengers and freight on the same deck is no longer certifiable. Once KLM get rid of theirs and the ATI DC-8 soon disappears, that will be the end of combo flying apart from Alaska's B737-400 and a few B732 Combis flying around Northern Canada IIRC.

[Monty Gordo]

Many of the references to possible flights to China have mentioned JLR and MG. I think it should be pointed out that the Chinese automotive interest in the West Midlands also includes the Geely Group which has bought and invested heavily in what we call the London Black Cab in Coventry.

And already the Geely group is reported as supplying the Coventry plant with parts from China. There could possibly be other Chinese interest in the region's automotive sector.

I make this point because I am sure that any thrust BHX management make to the Chinese in the hope of opening up a route will dwell heavily on this sector. Even now, it is a sector with high value to both countries but is one, as the economy improves, will only get become more valuable.

I would like to think that being able to offer such strong business links within one sector must be of great advantage.

[crewmeal]

Many of the references to possible flights to China have mentioned JLR and MG. I think it should be pointed out that the Chinese automotive interest in the West Midlands also includes the Geely Group which has bought and invested heavily in what we call the London Black Cab in Coventry.

All the more reason for a freighter service to start sometime if business is brisk, but pax flights no way especially with Chinese expansion at LHR & LGW.

[OltonPete]

From the CAA: Another good month considering how the IT flights seem to disappear quicker then ever.

830233 up 4.3% rolling 12 months 9056876 +2.1%

ATM'S7985 +7.3% rolling 84587 +0.7%

Air India 7050 average 195 pax or 77% (Turkmen down 900 pax -18%)

Islamabad was up 41% at 9280 and more than Heathrow

Emirates was up 10% 43000 avg 347 pax or 83% load factor

Turkish up 19% 10368 average 117 about 76%

Newark up 13% 8073 avg 155 or 92% load factor

BHX seem to be in it for the long-haul :ouch:

Pete

[nigel osborne]

OltonPete,

Some great figures here especially long haul, three months and Air India consistently over 75% who needs time to build it up huh !

United Newark at 92% in October and cutting more winter rotations, seems excessive ?

Dubai What a recovery from last year when we had 62% to 82% this.

Nigel

[chinapattern]

Islamabad was up 41% at 9280 and more than Heathrow

I noticed the A310's are back on some LHR-ISL flights but this is still very encouraging given Airblue's arrival on the scene. Fingers crossed these long haul figures continue to go up.

[Guest 112233]

BIRMINGHAM - BRUSSELS down 4% , Berlin down 17% Hanover & Hamburg down and Munich down 6%. - Frankfurt up 8% - Dus Up too at 5% Provisional figs I know - and an overall increase is what it says on the Tin.

I only looked at some Brussels/German Figs, but the fuller picture is much more complex and I have not applied any clever interpretations to the numbers.

CAT III

[nigel osborne]

CAT 111 apparently even with a half load Brussels is one of BHX most profitable routes. Its been 45-55% load factors for years.

MAN also sees similar load factors on it.


Air France has now gone from an A318 de fault to a 319 with 320s and 321s on selected dates.

Nigel

[OltonPete]

CATIII-NDB

There are some valid explanations such as Munich, which had Monarch operating last October amounting to 18 sectors, which probably means LH carried more passenger in October 13 than they did in October 12.

Hamburg was double daily last October as was Hanover, alas Hamburg was still miserable at 45 pax per flight (barely 50% load factor) whereas flybe managed 63 pax per flight at 77% and really should be making money on that although nothing is ceratin with them at the moment.

Berlin I believe is suffering from three effects -

1) timings which only suit inbound German pax (hopefully good yields though)
2) a reduction in seats as the weekend services were on the CR9
3) the third one I am less confident about and that the initial interest of a new a route has gone. I was one who booked within days on it going on sale and I know loads of people who also used it in the first six months but it is probably a destination that needs time to build in respect of business pax?

Now DUS & FRA are good news stories as vitually little capacity change but year on year increases. Same with CPH, AMS, FCO, VCE, WAT & STR. Dublin Istanbul and Barcelona saw more frequencies than 2012 and this needs to be taken into account.

Brussels is up and down like a ................... and as Nigel has stated the general opinion is that it is profitable due to the late business fares sold.

Overall a mixed bag (when long-haul is stripped out) but with an excellent overal figure although some might say masks the real picture.

I will be posting the full load factors in the next week or so.

Pete

[Guest 112233]

Thank you for your criticisms.

I welcome any qualification to any comment I post on PPR...

Its those steady year on year increases that really do indicate that the utility of the Airport is increasing for its client base.

Those services that burst upon the scene as a commercial success are rare - Turkish Airlines is clearly an exception. A very modest start then as better informed than I have said: a re launch with reduced fares (at times) and for a number of reasons - onward connections? - a success apparently.

CAT III

[Edit: Historians will probably have access to detailed route yield figs sometimes in the far future; the lucky ones assuming somebody comes up with an equivalent of the 30 Year rule for private businesses not the P & L + B/S pubic financials.]

[ZULUBOY]

My in-laws used the first Germanwings' outbound flight to Berlin since they took over. Was full 'up-front', i.e those passengers that had paid for luggage and a snack but empty behind those seats.

I'm using them over the Xmas period and have paid the extra for the luggage and snack and works out the same as Lufthansa's prices before

[ATNotts]

OltonPete

Berlin I believe is suffering from three effects -

1) timings which only suit inbound German pax (hopefully good yields though)
2) a reduction in seats as the weekend services were on the CR9
3) the third one I am less confident about and that the initial interest of a new a route has gone. I was one who booked within days on it going on sale and I know loads of people who also used it in the first six months but it is probably a destination that needs time to build in respect of business pax?

The problem with Berlin is that it still really isn't a major German business destination. Try as the German government does to encourage business towards Berlin, the main focus remains the Ruhr, Frankfurt/Main, Munich and Stuttgart.

As you drive east, the Autobahns improve, and the volume of traffic notably decreases. Infrastructure in place, business still to arrive!

[OltonPete]

As you can see the net monthly increase actually masks some quite worrying figures on a few routes.

Remedies have been put in place by BMIR but unfortunately at the extreme end of the scale with Billund and Toulouse ending soon and who can blame them.

SAS Stockholm still indicates that they are not filling their flights but the flybe flights are not too bad.

The routes where there haven't been extreme frequency increases/decreases therefore like for like on 2012, are FRA (3 more flights in 2013), DUS (8 fewer flights in 2013), BRU (4 fewer flights in 2013), CPH (2 more flights in 2013), CDG (6 fewer in 2013), STR (2 more in 2013), ORK (4 fewer in 2013), SNN (same), WAT (3 few in 2013) and Rome (4 more flights in 2013).

Islamabad at 67% is low but considering the capacity increase it is promising. Air India continues at mid seventies and EK safely back in the 80's.

Monthly figures are from the provisional CAA stats, average pax per flight is based on rotations reported on SBS sites and libhomeradar with load factor estimated using airline seat maps.

Destination followed by number of pax, average per flight, load factor and finally 2012 figures

Route..............PAX.....Avg per flight....Load Factor... 2012 figure
BRUSSELS........9589 .........41................50%............. 10029
TORONTO..........943.... ........236...............98%................1479
DUBROVNIK.......2703............123...............75%....... .........2529
SPLIT ...............554..............69................40%....... ............0
LARNACA..........7143............179...............90%...... ..........6992
PAPHOS............4152...........160................79%..... ..........4074
BILLUND............. 754.............16................33%....................0
COPENHAGEN.....7177.............76................73%....... ........6943
SHARM..............4966...........177................83%.... ...........1085
LYON.................2797............51................58%.. .................0
MONTPELLIER......1731..........108.................57%...... .........998
NICE..................2581............99................55%. ..............2724
PARIS (CDG)......30758............92................78%........... ..31382
PERPIGNAN.........1403............78.................41%.... ...............0
TOULOUSE...........690............16.................33%.... ...............0
BERLIN (TXL).......4670...........78.................61%........... ...5618
DUSSELDORF......17599...........52.................60%...... ......16763
FRANKFURT........24744.........102.................69%...... ......22860
HAMBURG............2435...........47.................53%.... ..........4179
HANOVER............3825...........62.................77%.... ..........5663
MUNICH............14486...........85..................69%... .........15375
STUTTGART........4056...........42..................53%..... ........3241
GIBRALTAR..........3231..........115.................66%.... ..............0
HERAKLION..........2809.........156..................80%.... .........2434
BUDAPEST................0................................... ...............2975
AMRITSAR...........7050..........196.................76%.... ..............0
CORK..................6268...........57.................79%. .............6547
DUBLIN..............49799..........110.................72%.. ..........44952
KNOCK................1966...........38..................62%. ............2931
SHANNON............2670...........45..................78%... ..........2973
WATERFORD........1779............52.................67%..... .........1357
BERGAMO............3443..........123.................65%.... ...............0
MILAN (MXP)........4004...........65.................59%.......... ....4756
ROME (FCO).........8612..........139.................80%......... ....7524
TRIESTE.............1717............95..................50%. ...........1790
VENICE...............4829..........134..................77%. ............4570
KAUNAS..............2905..........161..................85%.. ...........2894
MALTA................2725..........170.................90%.. ...........3275
AMSTERDAM....... 39060...........84.................76%............37606
ISLAMABAD..........9280..........232.................67%.... ..........6601
BYDGOSZCZ.........4700..........168.................89%..... .........4435
GDANSK...............2882..........160.................85%.. ............2949
KATOWICE...........4045...........156.................82%... ..........4467
KRAKOW..............2860...........159.................84%.. ................0
RZESZOW............3017...........168.................89%... ..........3059
FARO.................17385...........164.................84% ...........18848
FUNCHAL..............2231..........139.................80%.. .............826
BRATISLAVA.........4686 ..........167..................89%.............4122
ALICANTE...........25011..........181..................76%.. ..........25361
ALMERIA..............2957 ...........64...................77%.............3159
BARCELONA.........10192..........134..................71%... ..........3422
GIRONA................2099..........117..................62% .............5761
IBIZA...................4128..........142 .................73%.............3834
MAHON................3621..........151..................76%. ............4397
MALAGA.............25404..........174..................88%.. ..........26490
MURCIA...............5125..........142..................75%. .............5964
PALMA...............18356..........153..................80%. ...........18603
REUS...................3139..........121..................64 %.............4052
ARRECIFE............11099..........182..................95%. ..........11648
FUERTEVENTURA....6455..........190..................94%..... ........6936
LAS PALMAS.........7637..........174..................93%....... .......7660
TENERIFE............15991..........173..................89%. ...........16242
GOTEBORG............1321...........24...................50%. .................0
STOCKHOLM (ARN).2501...........57...................45%............... 422
ZURICH................8199...........72...................72 %............11679
BODRUM...............2450..........136..................78%. .............2095
DALAMAN.............9413..........149..................77%.. ............8226
ISTANBUL...........10358..........118..................76%.. ............8686
ASHKHABAD ..........3877..........114..................60%............ ..4751
DUBAI................43000..........347...................83 %............39006
NEW YORK (EWR)..8073..........155....................92%............. 7148

Pete

[crewmeal]

You would think that YYZ with a 98% load factor that there would be more room on the route. Still I suppose with 1 flight a week in the summer they can't go wrong.

[bhx bod]

I have heard on the grapevine that Russian airline Orenair has been granted permission to serve UK to Ekaterinburg from London and Birmingham both weekly.They have also been granted permission to operate 3 x weekly to Amritsar.Flights operated with B772 initially.
Interesting but if they are aiming at the UK to Amritsar market then certainly BHX flights in particular may not operate for obvious reasons.Also it wouldn't be the first time an airline has a licence to operate a certain route but not actually use it.We await development on this one with interest.

One other thing BHX may yet get a QTR flight.An A300F is due into Bruntingthorpe today around lunchtime.With the weather as it is the aircraft may well divert into BHX until it improves.
For anyone wondering it is A7-ABX which is coming to Bruntingthorpe to be scrapped,thus making it the 2nd A300 to pass through BHX for this reason.
I find that quite sad:{

[nigel osborne]

BHX-Bod,

Why would Orenair want to fly to BHX from such a place ? Can they connect from their to somewhere in the mid east, Asia where there might be a market for it ?

BHX was given rights to fly to Russia at least 7 years ago and no one was interested, not even a Moscow.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal,

Asked Canadian Affair about any extra flts or routes to BHX.

Got a reply say they have none.

Didn't they forms after Globespan and they were not particulary keen on BHX either.

The 3330s last year on our weekly YYZ were also full.crazy

Nigel

[bhx bod]

Nigel.
If you read the post your question would be answered.
The reason why many airlines over the years have tried BHX is to tap into the Indian market in particular Amritsar.
However as I have already said that market is already well served so a service may never happen.
You know yourself many airlines have tried the same basic routing with varying degrees of success.Only TUA and AI have really gained from it so I would agree why else would they open a service? I am merely passing on information from what I believe to be a trust-worthy source.After all this is a rumours and news site is it not?Discuss!!!

[ATNotts]

Nigel

The 3330s last year on our weekly YYZ were also full.crazy

Crazy? No, brilliant! Full aircraft should ensure high yield and excellent profit.

Put a second weekly service on, perhaps the LF drops to 75% and result could be 2 3/4 full aircraft, plenty of empty seats, lower yield - less profit!

Airlines are not in the business of saturating a market, but in making a profit - unless of course you're Alitalia!!

[crewmeal]

ATNotts Why restrict to a charter company? Why not a carrier direct? If Wardair could fill a 742 3-4 times a week back in the late 80's why cant BHX do it now? What has changed so much since then?

[LAX_LHR]

What has changed so much since then?


A lot of British families moved out to Canada back then, which supported the various flights. The market now, however, is quite literally dying out.

The majority of traffic is now tourist traffic rather than VFR. Even LBA used to get Wardair B747's, unlikely to get such capacity now though.

[LAX_LHR]

The Qatar A300 went to EMA.

[bhx bod]

Yes,QTR3251 landed just after 1330 @EMA.Slightly disappointing!

[nigel osborne]

AT Notts,

Andrew ,

So at what point do you try an extra frequency when this 1 flight has been stuffed for the last 3 years at least.

Surely at MAN the 1st service got to 98% so they put another on etc.

Yield yes thats a factor , but with no 1st or business class and only a small premium economy, where does the extra yield come from when C A are charging virtually the same fares out of both airports.

They told me if I want to use the BHX service I will need to book ASAP as it will sell out very quickly again.Course it will I said as you only put on 1 flippin flt !!!

They have been bussing passengers to MAN after it sold out..

So yes the word crazy under these circs seems to fit.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Re Qatar A300

It used a BHX flight tag as we were the nearest airport yet diverts to EMA..thats simply not cricket :)

We are only Cat 1 at present though and it was a bit drizzly here.

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

It used a BHX flight tag as we were the nearest airport yet diverts to
EMA


Did it actually divert? Flight path seems to indicate it was always EMA bound?

[groundhogbhx]

Destination was Bruntingthorpe, which was below limits, so yes it did divert.

[LAX_LHR]

Destination was Bruntingthorpe, which was below limits, so yes it did
divert


No problem. I wasn't sure if the EMA visit could have been planned in a similar way to Cathay Pacific, when they sent the 3 B747's to Kemble for scrap all 3 called at MAN first.

[ATNotts]

Nigel,

I really feel we go around this topic every couple of months on this thread - it sometimes feels like Groundhog Day!

The demographics are such that, as LAX_LHR said, the VFR traffic that underpinned the Toronto service through the 1970s, 80s and 90s has literally died out, leaving purely tourists - in both directions of course.

I think you will find that Air Transat has a their own station at MAN, so the cost of adding a service to the BHX roster is more expensive than doing the same at MAN.

Best hope of an additional service to Toronto is a based unit from the likes of TCX or TOM - and I reckon the odds on that are some where between no chance, and slightly less than that.

Interestingly, in 30 or so years, the "Toronto" problem may well become evident on routes to Amritsar and Islamabad - for the same demographic reasons.

[nigel osborne]

AT Notts,

yes a pity for BHX. You seem to be saying it doesn't matter how many years BHX has a full plane nothings going to change.

MAN and GLA have a base station ,but at one time both did not, so an airport has to start somewhere.

BHX problem was that it didn't have a long enough runway to support Vancouver and Calgary, hence why we could only get Toronto.

However at least that part has changed now, so in theory technically BHX could support a base as well.

Quite clear by Canadian Affairs reply to me that they have simply very little interest in BHX irrespective of loads or yield and theres very little you can do about that.

Nigel

[Skipness One Echo]

MAN and GLA have a base station ,but at one time both did not, so an airport has to start somewhere.
A what now? They're both outstations with no based staff (surely?) and third party handling. A commercial decision has been made to focus on these airports and pull back from others, most recently EDI/NCL/EXT.
Consider TS withdrawing from their monopoly on that famous backwater EDI-YYZ, only for Air Canada to forsake their former base at GLA and re-launch Scotland from EDI with Rouge thrice weekly.
BHX problem was that it didn't have a long enough runway to support Vancouver and Calgary, hence why we could only get Toronto.
Not so much, given the amount of MAN/GLA combos we see, if they'd wanted to serve a YVR-BHX-GLA-YVR it's entirely doable, the runway, as ever, is a red herring. I think these are commercial rather than operational decisions.

[OltonPete]

October domestic stats - Source: CAA for monthly pax figure the rest are estimates based on SBS logs and airline seat-maps

.............................2013....avg pax....load factor.. 2012
ABERDEEN............9510.........45.............63%........8 557
BELFAST CITY.... 24583.........68.............66%......27900
BELFAST INT.... 14248......120..............77%........2916
CITY OF DERRY ....4345.......128.............68%........4751
DUNDEE.....................0 ........................................1475
EDINBURGH........27113........74..............72%......27443
GLASGOW...........19418.......54..............60%......19400
GUERNSEY............3012...................inc in JER .....2359
JERSEY..................3265.......51..............63%...... ..4591
INVERNESS...........3065.......57..............63%........29 61
ISLE OF MAN.........3646.......35..............45%.......3774
NEWCASTLE...........739..........8..............28%.......10 75

Flybe have significantly cut BHD capacity after this month with easyjet not reacting (the increases were planned ages ago) and the net result is easy have raised fares which hopefully won't reduce pax numbers this month and first indications it is not (I monitor fares most days). I am sure they will look at the schedule again with Monday morning BFS-BHX, Wednesday evening BHX-BFS and all Sunday services selling out most weeks. In fact evening loads on Monday and Tuesday are also high. I assume a third Sunday, Monday and Wednesday service has yet to materialise as there is no justification for it on both legs although Sunday might be able to support it in both directions.

Canada

Although it is true the ex-pat British population has dwindled the ex-pat Sikh population in Canada seems to be growing with nearly 500000 (if you believe that well known source) of which of 200000 are in the Vancouver area and I thought this might give a bit of hope for a weekly summer service.

I certainly don't have any substantive figures relating to travel figures between the Midlands and Vancouver Sikh communities but you would hope that this has been taken into consideration by the varies travel companies and not over-looked. I only have anecdotal evidence that there is a reasonable amount of travel between the communities but whether this is enough to sustain a weekly service I don't know.


Pete

[chinapattern]

You would think that YYZ with a 98% load factor that there would be more room
on the route.


The same could be argued for UA on EWR. While I understand that to some extent the Canadian market has "died out" we are actually seeing an increase in flights across the pond. Next summer MAN will have Air Canada Rouge, DUB gains x3 new services to YYZ aswell as the resumption of SFO. This along with new USA flights from MAN and EDI. Even LGW gets a link to BOS next summer.

BHX has been very vocal about gaining a new link to the US and for whatever the reason they've been unsuccessful. If the market isn't there then surely the BHX team would be the first ones to realise?

[GayFriendly]

Well I suppose BHX does have a new link to the U.S with Biman flying to JFK - however at 2 x weekly I hardly think it will appeal to a huge number of BHX originating pax or see a huge increase in pax flying to NYC.

BHX must be feeling somewhat red-faced with their shiny new runway extension but no apparent interest from U.S or Canadian carriers in operating from it. The commercial aspects of flying from BHX across the pond save for the long standing single UA service simply can't add up although as chinapattern points out, one would hope that BHX have realised this. Being sandwiched between the multiple daily flights options available from LHR and MAN as well as competitively priced connections with EI via DUB to the U.S can't help the situation either.

[groundhogbhx]

I think the airports eyes were in the other direction when the decision was made, only time will tell if they were right.

[jabird]

Quite clear by Canadian Affairs reply to me that they have simply very little interest in BHX irrespective of loads or yield and theres very little you can do about that.

So you are basically saying it is a political decision?

I very much doubt that. If any non-state airline is going to play politics these days, we know the kind of games MOL play with smaller airports and regulators, and he's had his spat with Brum in the past - because he can.

For a long haul operator, airport costs are a smaller part of the deal anyway, but the crewing comparisons with MAN might well be a factor.

I would never make any assumptions about yields based on loads - long haul leisure on a low frequency will almost always get good loads, because you can always discount the final few seats.

You want to go on a flight that is popular at a time that is popular? Well, I'm afraid that's their response.

In an industry where margins are wafer thin as they are, there isn't much to gain from taking a risk on another flight, even if that too would be popular.

[GayFriendly]

How is the TS BHX-YYZ service crewed? Crewing costs must have an impact on the TS ops at BHX - being a weekly service, I imagine the crew operate into BHX have to be bussed to either MAN or LGW (or even positioned to GLA or DUB?) to operate back next day. The reverse of course will be the case for the operating outbound crew, they must be bussed in from MAN or LGW to BHX? Or do TS actually give their crew the pleasure of a week long BHX layover....:eek:

Positioning crew like this will add to the costs of operating this service. TS must therefore think it is commercially worthwhile to do so as most airlines will do anything to avoid positioning crew about so regularly unless absolutely necessary. A second frequency I doubt would help this situation, crew would still need to be positioned to another UK airport to operate back, like their planes airlines want crew flying not spending days on end on layovers! The YYZ service would need to be at least 4 x weekly to efficiently layover crew in BHX itself?

I really do hope BHX is in with a shout with WestJet to YYZ and that BHX eyes are back on the trans-Atlantic ball. Sadly however I would not be surprised if EDI and MAN gain any proposed new YYZ services instead. BHX does seem to be a poisoned chalice for trans-Atlantic ops - US Airways must have really been burnt at BHX to choose to operate EDI-PHL instead in 2014. I wonder if they re-considered operating to BHX at all??

[LAX_LHR]

I really do hope BHX is in with a shout with WestJet to YYZ and that BHX eyes are back on the trans-Atlantic ball. Sadly however I would not be surprised if EDI and MAN gain any proposed new YYZ services instead


Westjet say they have identified up to 5 airports that they want to serve and are within the B737 range. Sadly, EDI, MAN and 'a London airport' (likely LGW) have already been singled out:


The company said it had considered four or five other European cities as
potential destinations that would be within the range of its fleet of Boeing
737s



But if WestJet's transatlantic service proves a success, it may consider
adding places like Edinburgh, Manchester, and/or London


WestJet poses challenge to Rouge (http://www.theprovince.com/travel/WestJet+poses+challenge+Rouge/9184049/story.html)

Lets hope BHX is in with a chance. A B737 with connections to other points in Canada should be the very least BHX should aim for.

[chinapattern]

I still think Icelandair is the way to go as far as North America and Canada is concerned. :ok:

[getonittt]

Just going back to this. Has it officially been announced yet? I know it is in amadeus and comes up on ticket agents web searches but birmingham is not on the drop down on the aegean airlines website nor is there any word on the BHX web pages or is that old hat nowadays and you find out new services on social media and forums ?

[GrahamK]

Well, the long rumoured QR 787 service to BHX has gone to....Edinburgh

[LAX_LHR]

Qatar have just announced Edinburgh starting 28th May 5 weekly B787. So much for BHX being the next UK destination.

[chinapattern]

Well done EDI; perhaps if BHX is now off QR's radar for the time being EK might go x3 daily?

[justplanecrazy84]

Not surprised really if you were an airline where would you start flights from an airport with competition or an airport with no competition?

[Evanelpus]

Well, the long rumoured QR 787 service to BHX has gone to....Edinburgh

Holy :mad:ck Batman, how can this be?

I've never been convinced by the muppets that run BHX but this caps it all.

[Kazamb]

It appears that AIrblue will suspend BHX ops in December. Agents are being advised to rebook affected pax to MAN. Apparent reasons - Shortage of aircraft. Seems like they won't be coming back.

[FRatSTN]

Maybe to make way for their apparent Stansted service?

[getonittt]

Holy http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifck Batman, how can this be?

I've never been convinced by the muppets that run BHX but this caps it all.

Surely you are not serious ! What does this have to do with BHX , EDI is 300 miles away and ' maybe' after 2015 in a different country.

And besides, what would anyone talk about if QR started and AA announced ORD? !

[Bagso]

What does this have to do with BHX , EDI is 300 miles away

Because QR were nailed on for BHX and have gone to EDI and people on here are interested ?

[ATNotts]

To add my two-penneth, and not a popular one I guess, the decision of QR not to open BHX is probably the best thing that could have happened at the moment.

Another carrier serving roughly the same market at Emirates and Turkish could easily have resulted in one of these two successful operations blinking first, and leaving, or contracting at BHX. As it is, the status quo is maintained.

As for Air Blue, despite the hysteria, the is no definite info as to whether this is a "permanent suspension" or a temporary one. Again, it won't do PIA's fortunes any harm. Two carriers on ISB/BHX could be overkill, and could have resulted in no carriers on ISB/BHX.

More flights and more carriers often isn't the best option. Without wishing to raise the dreaded three letters "YYZ" again, look what happened when AC muscled in on WD's territory - result no scheduled services from YYZ to BHX!

[ATNotts]

Bagso

Because QR were nailed on for BHX

Nailed on by whom?

[Skipness One Echo]

Wardair withdrew as BHX no longer suited their new business model, which foolishly for them meant they went almost bust and were bought for pennies by Canadian. Max Ward made his name with very reliable, super punctual long haul heavy routes on p2p then blew it all flying A310s on the Candian domestic scene. They turned their nose up at PIK despite having operated very succesfully with B747s and DC10s for year, and demanded GLA access for business traveller friendly facilities or they'd not be back.
That worked out well.

With Rouge choosing MAN and Mainline having a large LHR presence, I think BHX is marginalised between the two yet again sadly.

[nigel osborne]

ATNOTTS.

Andrew

Yes you are right Qatar was never nailed on to come to BHX.

However the fact they named BHX as an airport they wanted to fly into and did not name the two other UK airports..yet don't start at BHX but from EDI which wasn't named by them before is disappointing.

I can understand where your coming from about not watering down the other airlines that fly to the region, however you really do seem to like your Status Quos.

I would have said that the TK and Emirates loads are consistently good and sustained to be able to absorb another carrier.

I suspect its far more about them joining One World and BHX doesn't do One World.

BA have not hidden their anger over earlier BHX boast to become LHR 3rd runway, and BAs turse reply to that was well covered in the local media here,did BA get an input into Qatars decision as claimed on other lists today ?

As for Air Blue, very confusing surely they knew how many planes they needed when they started so how all of a sudden do they not have enough planes.Something fishy

EDI.. what can you say..well done to them announcing three new long haul airlines in 7 days :D

Nigel

[GayFriendly]

Great news for EDI with QR adding flights to DOH, can we please now put that QR/BHX rumour to bed as it now seems even less likely to happen than ever. Talk about egg on face for BHX, it has been named as the next UK destination to be served and EDI goes and trumps them to it and to add insult to injury Air Blue call time on BHX too....

EDI is now virtually on a par with BHX for long haul ops and offers considerably better trans-Atlantic services. The problem for BHX in terms of long haul is that long haul demand is weakened by its proximity to LHR and MAN. Existing markets are therefore seemingly adequately served by a relatively small number of carriers and flights and there is no interest from airlines in launching into new ones, even with the runway extension. Has long haul expansion at BHX stalled? Embarrassed red faces all round I should imagine in the BHX boardrooms :eek:

[j636]

My word on QR BHX won't be next in Europe for them if my info is correct, it will be a capital city sometime in FY14 or 15.

[All names taken]

We all seem to be getting hung up on the Edinburgh vs Birmingham thing.
The reality is, certainly Transatlantic, Edinburgh is a massive draw for American (US and Canadian) tourists. Birmingham sadly is not.
That also goes some way to explaining why some of the EDI tatl services are basically only summer tourist flights.

[jabird]

BA have not hidden their anger over earlier BHX boast to become LHR 3rd runway, and BAs turse reply to that was well covered in the local media here,did BA get an input into Qatars decision as claimed on other lists today ?

I very much doubt it!

Don't think there are many here who have taken BHX's grandiose plans seriously, and even if a few do, no reason to think the government is remotely interested, or that WW would still be at BA by the time such a scheme opened.

To then suggest WW has a hand in QRs decision is a stretch into absurdity when plenty of more sensible explanations have already been given.

Now back to the ongoing fuss about why BHX stuggles to cater for the latent market on its doorstep. Or is all this talk of becoming a hub just another distraction from this failure - again!

[crewmeal]

It appears that AIrblue will suspend BHX ops in December. Agents are being advised to rebook affected pax to MAN. Apparent reasons - Shortage of aircraft. Seems like they won't be coming back. According to a blog tonight's the the last flight!

Why is it that BHX attracts all these crap oufits that drop in for a few flights? Armenia? now AirBlue. Don't these carriers have forward planning development and thinking? Obviously not. It reminds me of that idiot who invented "flywho" I was gullible enough to apply for a job and was promised the earth and of course nothing delivered.

Who's next to apply for a couple of flights then? Are there any other grubby third world carriers that want to have a go? Answers on a postcard please.

[Ringwayman]

Air Blue have been at MAN for years so hardly a "fly by night" operator of UK flights. Perhaps it's the BHX catchment that failed to use the services as I don't believe you have many operators that target the Pakistani cities out of BHX other than the PK services and EK services

[LAX_LHR]

Why is it that BHX attracts all these crap oufits that drop in for a few
flights? Armenia? now AirBlue. Don't these carriers have forward planning development and thinking?


Strange how they have been serving MAN for what must be 8 years or so now. Must be some forward planning to last that long surely? Maybe 2 points relatively close together was just not the right move for them?

[Guest 112233]

Now's my moment:

The Cat III Charabanc to Ingrowing Nail on Crouch - Absolutely no chance of getting airborne at all .

As a child I went to a 70's Resort in North Wales not far from Llandudnu - The Beach was nearly X kilometres long long enough to support flights !.

Coach services when running, last considerably longer than certain other forms of travel.

All I need is a run up area - Nice and flat, centre line lights to help in fog (CAT IIi) and with help and support "We are all going on a long haul vacation"

More seriously - Something has gone very badly wrong - Is it the [general international social status of the "West Mids Catchment"] or "Show us your plans for initial duration of service based on actual vis projected Yield" or a combination + other factors to be examined, perhaps not for a public forum.

CAT III

[crewmeal]

Strange how they have been serving MAN for what must be 8 years or so now. Must be some forward planning to last that long surely?

Indeed. I'm glad it's working well for MAN.

Maybe 2 points relatively close together was just not the right move for them?

So why start the route in the first place? hence my comment regarding no forward planning. On reflection maybe there were sweetners offered by BHX management for the first few flights and when the jar was empty they looked elsewhere!

[Guest 112233]

Yes: Why start at all ?

Perhaps an independent audit of the whole process (not just this customer) could provide lessons for the Management.

Do the public Councils of the W. Mids still have shares in the company ? and of course other external share holders; could be interested in the general process of inducting new custom for the enterprise.

I'm not pointing any fingerer’s: but from a commercial reputation standpoint could lessons be learned internally.

CAT III

[OltonPete]

getonittt

Aegean still not officially announced but is still bookable on various sites although not the main one however the press release is still there.

Westjet

I would take the press release with a pinch of salt re the destinations certainly what many of us should have done with the QR CEO's wonderous claims last year.

Air Blue It was always a tough ask from nil to a 342 seat A343 with competition on the route. I could have swore Manchester was a 319 for six or seven years and in that time have PIA reduced? PK at BHX will at least get a bit of rest bite, as Air Blue did have some stunning loads but obviosly not enough. The October stats were promising but the A343 is hardly the most economic of aircraft gracing the skies - I do know that economics are not always a factor with some airlines but maybe an A319 via Turkey would have been a better way to start the service?

justplanecrazy84 QR "no competition" at EDI is not quite true with Turkish and of course their new alliance partner could be the biggest loser - BA. There is a good chance that BA are currently taking a lot of their potential pax via Heathrow but I know not sure AAB will be losing any sleep about that. QR will do well at EDI despite the curious start date (slap bang in the middle of the low season followed by Ramadan).

Emirates I think QR would have give them something to think about which presently they seem to be having an easy ride.

Turkish Double daily still not bookable - anybody if this is definite and not just from slot proposals?


Pete

[Skipness One Echo]

Must be some forward planning to last that long surely?
This is the same rather crashy Air Blue from Pakistan? This is the one we're crediting with good forward planning? Who are we comparing with? Air India and PIA? Not sure you can pin this one on BHX.
Yes: Why start at all ?
Perhaps an independent audit of the whole process (not just this customer) could provide lessons for the Management.
I am fairly sure the route planning process would have been someone "in authority" pointing at map shouting "Fly there! Fly there!" Or perhaps Air Blue undertook a rigorous market assesment beforehand? I think we're attaching a level of sophistication here that's not actually there.
of course their new alliance partner could be the biggest loser - BA. There is a good chance that BA are currently taking a lot of their potential pax via Heathrow
True but EDI is one of BA's better routes with an enormous point to point passenger base, it may be the case one can earn Executive Club points on QR flights from EDI so rather them than EK from that point of view. I imagine passengers may also be using BA lounge facilities?

[groundhogbhx]

I hear that the Air Blue was shipping a fair amount of cargo, so possibly they do have an aircraft unexpectedly out of service for a month or two. Fortunately I don't get involved with such things anymore :ok:

[onyxcrowle]

Speaking of smaller airlines I just noticed on FR a Turkmenistan Airlines 757 heading out of BHX .
Seems like a random destination from there

[OltonPete]

onyxcrowle

Nothing random about it - It connects on to Amritsar and caters for West Mids Sikhs or as some would say VFR traffic! Suffering a little at the moment due to shiny new 787's plying the Amritsar route via Delhi.

Pete

[LAX_LHR]

This is the same rather crashy Air Blue from Pakistan?

What, and Air Blue is the only airline to have an accident. Nope that's never happened to anyone else has it? :rolleyes:

This is the one we're crediting with good forward planning?

No you are deliberately warping the argument there aren't we dear old chap. Where did I say the forward planning was 'good'. Please, I would be interested to see where you picked it up from seen as I have not used the word 'good' at all. What I actually said was that there evidently was some forward planning, compared to how they are being made out. There is a difference.

Not sure you can pin this one on BHX

Well, something has obviously gone wrong. As mentioned earlier, people are quick to pounce blaming air blue, without a shred of evidence as to what has actually transpired.

Funny how people seem quick to ignore the fact Air Blue have been serving the UK since 2007, which, unless my maths is well out, certainly longer than some of the basket case airlines they have now been grouped with (Air Shylet, flyswe, flywhoo etc). I would imagine some of the outbursts are just bitterness that a new long haul route from BHX hasn't quite turned out how people had hoped.

I am fairly sure the route planning process would have been someone "in authority" pointing at map shouting "Fly there! Fly there!" Or perhaps Air Blue undertook a rigorous market assesment beforehand? I think we're attaching a level of sophistication here that's not actually there

As mentioned above, an airline that has been serving a route for 6 years in the face of increased competition (PIA directly, EK/EY/QR/TK indirectly), is obviously doing something right.
Normally, Im usually a fan of your posts and keen eye for analysis, however, Im not sure whether its late night giddiness on your part, but I think your being overly harsh this time and I cannot fathom why you are doing so. I am not a supporter of Air Blue, nor have I ever flown on them, but, I do think there at least needs to be some explanation as to what has actually happened, and if the cut is temporary until the runway is extended before the witch hunt of 'sh*tty airlines' commences.

[crewmeal]

I would imagine some of the outbursts are just bitterness that a new long haul route from BHX hasn't quite turned out how people had hoped.

You're right LAX_LHR there will be a few that are bitter about the sudden abrupt ending of the service including me. It's totally unprofessional unbusinesslike, disgraceful (and every other adjective that describes bad business practice) way they announced a sudden halt to the route letting down not only themselves but passengers who have put their trust and money into them. I dare say that travel agents around the Midlands and the North of England may well feel angry and be reluctant to use this outfit again once news gets around.

[LAX_LHR]

Crewmeal,

You have my respect for admitting its bitterness. Yes, at the end of the day it has let passengers down whatever has happened, and yes I would be peeved if a flight I had booked was cancelled in advance.

However, I stand by my stance that some of the comments are a bit OTT, especially calling them a 'crashy airline' due to the ISB accident. In a way its almost disrespectful to the people who lost their lives, almost trivialises the accident.

[crewmeal]

However, I stand by my stance that some of the comments are a bit OTT, especially calling them a 'crashy airline' due to the ISB accident. In a way its almost disrespectful to the people who lost their lives, almost trivialises the accident.

Speak to SOE about that one, not guilty!

[getonittt]

A statement from Air Blue :

"We wish to inform all our business partners that Airblue is suspending its flights from Birmingham to Pakistan w.e.f 1st December 2013. The suspension of flights is applicable till further notice and is being done in light of Airblue's expansion plan into Saudi Arabia and was a difficult decision in light of successful operation of flights from Birmingham. We are making all possible efforts to adjust our valued passengers on alternate flights wherever possible. However if any passenger would like to cancel their flight and demand for refund, please be assured that the full amount will be refunded to the passenger. The flights from Manchester will continue to operate as per normal schedule. We would like to thank all our business partners for their valuable support for Birmingham Sector and would again like to highlight the fact that it was a difficult decision, but was made in the larger interest of the Organization. Thanking and assuring you of our cooperation. Regards Management Airblue Ltd "


As an aside ,

Turkish will start a new lahore service from IST from 27/11/13 with 3 flights a week and offer excellent connection timings with BHX flights and some travel agents are already going to use these flights aswell as existing TK connections to islamabad.

[justplanecrazy84]

I guess it a case of last in first out its nice to know it's not down to poor loads!

As for aircraft are they due to receive any more A340s?

[ATNotts]

getonittt

The Air Blue statement looks reasonably rational, given that they have (I would imagine) had to fight tooth and nail to gain access to the Saudi market, against the like of government owned PIA.

Though I don't know, I would surmise that the Saudi economy, like much of the Gulf is reliant on expats from the Indian Subcontinent to do all the real work for bu**er all, whilst the local Arab "aristocracy" sits on piles of cash, in the lap of luxury!

So, there's a captive market to be taken between KSA and Pakistan.

All that said, if Air Blue were negotiating to get into the Saudi market, it beggars belief that they would start BHX, knowing full well they'd have to pull it as soon as they gained access to Saudi. It's not exactly the way to gain public confidence, should they wish to return to BHX.

[crewmeal]

Well if Air Blue are going to put all their eggs in one basket then good luck to them:rolleyes:

New Saudi labour laws may restrict remittances to Pakistan ? The Express Tribune (http://tribune.com.pk/story/570487/new-saudi-labour-laws-may-restrict-remittances-to-pakistan/)

[nigel osborne]

ATNOTTS.

Andrew

I wonder whether the Saudia route had been planned for a while, and instead of just letting the A340 sit around, went into BHX with an expectation that they would always pull out if and when the Saudia deal went through in the end ?

Nigel

[justplanecrazy84]

I think you might be right Nigel!

Now they have had a taster do you think they will be back?

[ATNotts]

Nigel,

May well be the case but if it is it's got to be one of the worst business / marketing decisions they could have made. After all, what have they actually gained? I would have thought keeping an A340 on the ground would have been a better option.

[justplanecrazy84]

As we all know when a plane is on the ground it's not earning money so I guess they have used BHX as a trial and like I've said had a taster.

[ATNotts]

As we all know when a plane is on the ground it's not earning money so I guess they have used BHX as a trial and like I've said had a taster.

Commercially, you don't do "tasters" as when you decide to terminate the "taster" then you have effectively pee'd off the customers to whom you have sold seats on flights that won't operate. Even if the seat is dirt cheap, you won't sell to the disgruntled passenger again.

At another level, an aircraft sat on the deck loses less cash, that one flying and not making a profit. That's why Ryanair lay up so many in the off season.

[justplanecrazy84]

Yes I understand what you mean but I thought air blue was doing very well at BHX which they must have had an idea it would do well or like you say it would have been better to have kept the aircraft grounded until they knew the situation with Saudi.

Now they know what the loads and yields are like at BHX which from what I've read on here and other forums have been good then they will probably be back when they get more aircraft.

It will also be interesting to see how many passengers will get a refund and either not go at all or decide to go with PIA instead and how many will take the journey up to MAN.

[nigel osborne]

Justplanecrazy/ATNotts.

The loads were very strange 263 in on the last I think but 90 out.. From someone who loads them at BHX it is rammed with freight though he says.

If they do come back perhaps a A319 might better suit..it took MAN some years to get established on an A319 before they very recently upped it to the A340.

Nigel

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I get the impression that Air Blue had no idea how long it would take for Saudi to give the green light.

BHX was very much plan B, along the lines of when bmi chucked their A330s up to MAN whilst they waited for access to LHR. The aircraft was always destined for elsewhere; just nobody knew when it was going to happen.

The fact Saudi gave the green light far sooner than anyone anticipated meant Air Blue had to cut and run from BHX.

I am in no doubt that some of the loads gave the carrier some pleasant surprises, but when put up against access to Saudi and its rich pickings, there really wasn't ever going to be any outcome other than what has happened.

[chinapattern]

In hindsight perhaps they should have just laid on a few extra flights into MAN for the interim; at least that way they wouldn't have been seen to be pulling out. Any return by Airblue to BHX now is likely to be met with much trepidation by travel agencies and passengers.

[Suzeman]

Stoneybridge

I get the impression that Air Blue had no idea how long it would take for Saudi to give the green light.

BHX was very much plan B, along the lines of when bmi chucked their A330s up to MAN whilst they waited for access to LHR. The aircraft was always destined for elsewhere; just nobody knew when it was going to happen.

The fact Saudi gave the green light far sooner than anyone anticipated meant Air Blue had to cut and run from BHX.

I am in no doubt that some of the loads gave the carrier some pleasant surprises, but when put up against access to Saudi and its rich pickings, there really wasn't ever going to be any outcome other than what has happened.

My thoughts entirely

Nigel O
If they do come back perhaps a A319 might better suit..it took MAN some years to get established on an A319 before they very recently upped it to the A340.

When Air Blue started at MAN they had no long haul or wide bodied aircraft; just A319/21 and the flight had to make a tech stop - initially at Trabzon I think and later Ankara. The A340s didn't arrive in their fleet until about a year ago, allowing them to go non-stop.

[crewmeal]

Here's the Beebs take on Air Blue with one comment that BHX is disappointed with the decision!

BBC News - Air Blue suspends Birmingham to Pakistan flights (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-25040700)

Love this bit:-

but had been assured the services would be reinstated in the spring of next year.

Yeah of course they will!!

[rutankrd]

A few things about AirBlue

1. The current usage of their two 340s is abysmal. They only require one per week whilst the other gets parked.

2. From December the Manchester route returns to three weekly - Coincidentally the extra being a Tuesday rotation (Same as the cancelled BHX rotation)

3. Loads have been better even at Manchester

4. The two 340s are too large from them

5. Their finances are weak

6. The management lied to Birmingham

7.The Saudi route is scheduled to use a 320 - They have a new one due very soon.

[crewmeal]

6. The management lied to Birmingham

They couldn't have timed it better:

Corruption rife in the Pakistani community, says minister - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10469448/Corruption-rife-in-the-Pakistani-community-says-minister.html)

[GayFriendly]

You would have thought BHX management were now experts at spotting airline management lies and b:mad:t after having already had dealings with quality and professional outfits as Flywho, Comtelair, Hellenic, Armavia, Air Sylhet to name but a few. Obviously not! ;)

I hope Biman do not join the list of here today gone tomorrow operators at BHX. These type of airlines do nothing for the image of the airport at all. Get some bloody quality long haul carriers in!!

[Guest 112233]

OK I'm no Airline Route Procurement Executive (In my dreams perhaps) : but some basic "Duty of Care - Due Diligence " sort of procedural processes would have been applied here by both sides, as a mutual protective activity, by contract, and established by mutual agreement to protect both parties. and third party customers

I'm not really qualified to express a direct opinion in this case, but surly - as part of the established "Economic validation criteria of a potential customer " the "provider" and "customer" would mutually agree on an "established pattern of service" for an agreed period, subject to agreed unforeseen circumstances.

What went wrong: Better informed contributors than I have raised pertinent questions in this respect.

CAT III

[purebeef]

Think Manchester airport gave them a financial incentive....

[rutankrd]

Please clarify !

They are an established Manchester carrier of many years and any incentives may well be illegal.

Much more likely BHX operators offered introductory deals which Airblue have now reneged on !

As for Biman as they have yet to receive the necessary US certifications this route remains in the air as well.

They also have a decidedly doggy record of opening and rapidly pulling routes with a host of excuses.

As for a sale/lease back option to an EU registered carrier the proposed operator better make sure they get a super satisfactory credit line !

IMO only AI have the potential of staying the course (GOI interference excepted)

[chaps2011]

Purebeef
I hope you can prove that otherwise be careful

Chaps

[crewmeal]

As for Biman as they have yet to receive the necessary US certifications this route remains in the air as well.

They also have a decidedly doggy record of opening and rapidly pulling routes with a host of excuses.

I agree wait until the wheels hit the deck before believing anything. They screwed MAN on their last operation, I doubt whether they have learned their lesson yet.

[getonittt]

To change the Air blue subject..... I see in the local paper that there is an advertisement for santa flights to Lapland starting next month . Only problem for midlanders is that you have a choice of departure airports, Norwich or Gatwick ! And these are day trips too.
Are there no flights available this year, I'm sure there have been some in the past.

[ericlday]

Yes there are....suggest your best friend Google.

[_IRL_Flyer]

There are a lot of flights available from BHX to Lapland this Winter.

Here are the timetables for flights from BHX-ENF, KTT & RVN.

BHX-Enontekio (ENF)

Schedules - Want 2 Go There (http://www.want2gothere.com/bhx/schedules/)

BHX-Kittila (KTT)
Schedules - Want 2 Go There (http://www.want2gothere.com/bhx/schedules/)

BHX-Rovaniemi (RVN)
Schedules - Want 2 Go There (http://www.want2gothere.com/bhx/schedules/)

[chinapattern]

Just reading the DUB thread and rumours of an Air China flight from next April? Considering DUB's runway is only marginally longer than BHX's I can't see how it could be a direct flight but did get me thinking as to whether a DUB-BHX-China flight could be a possible?

[nigel osborne]

China Pattern,

Well BHX have been talking to a Chinese Airline recently but it wasn't Air China.

However technically could link into BHX and would be reachable off our extension.

More likely via a European Airport already served or perhaps MAN..I live in hope though.

Nigel

[j636]

China Pattern

DUB-LAX is longer than The rumoured Air China route so runway isn't a problem and China will have a tailwind unlike LAX and it never had problems. The A332 can only be used an A333 couldn't operate either from DUB.

[GayFriendly]

Sorry to raise the ugly head of Air Blue again but they have confirmed starting flights from STN to LHE. A kick in the teeth for BHX and another reminder of the power of the MAG group on the fortunes of BHX in attracting airlines - with FR in bed with MAG at all three airports, a long term deal signed with ZB at MAN and EMA and now Air Blue defecting to STN, BHX is surrounded.....lets hope they don't buy BRS......

BHX-China - believe it when I see it. Airlines are in talks with airports all the time.......would a BHX-China flight via a European airport be any more attractive to punters than current options (EK, LX, LH etc) or driving to LHR? Needs to be non-stop to make it work surely?

[chinapattern]

Well whatever the excuse BHX have been treated rather poorly by Airblue but given STN's track record with long haul I wouldn't expect them to last long there either; AA, PIA, Air Asia X and even TK have all had rather short tenures.

[hammerb32]

It does re-inforce the point though that BHX is surrounded by MAG airports with an ability to set prices to impact and target BHX.

[ATNotts]

It does re-inforce the point though that BHX is surrounded by MAG airports with an ability to set prices to impact and target BHX.

Sorry, it does absolutely nothing of the sort. BHX (or at least some posters here) simply love to be the victim.

Leaving aside the (perhaps) not insignificant fact that MAG is not really a private company, owned as it it is by local government, the airports are operated as businesses, and any predatory pricing would surely be jumped upon, not least by BHX or other privately operated airports. The former BAA got caught out a while ago like this.

Sure, the Air Blue situation could leave a nasty taste in the mouth, and I guess that the marketing people at BHX are also pretty sore about the way things have gone. But in business, you pick yourself up, dust yourself down, and carry on - which is what they will surely be doing right now.

[hammerb32]

ATNotts,

Where was I loving 'being a victim'. I'm just stating a fact that there are 3 airports surrounding BHX all owned by the same company. We have a company in Air Blue who after a matter of weeks stopped services to BHX and started from an MAG airport down the road. We have Monarch who have recently signed a contract with MAG to expand operations across all 3 MAG airports. It would seem fairly clear to me that MAG are setting prices across the 3 airports and if they want to expand operations than BHX is the competitor sat in the middle. If I were working for MAG I would be targeting the BHX catchment and operators pretty vigourously.

[Alvechurch]

The Airblue situation is annoying but incidental.
An impartial observer judging the stagnation at Birmingham might well ask questions about the performance of Paul Kehoe, BHX's CEO.
One of his early public utterances on his arrival in 2008 was to publically question the business case for the runway extension.
The result was that instead of being completed in time for the 2012 Olympic Games, it won't be completed until April 2014.

Most people now are aware of the high fees at the airport, almost double those at MAN.
No one however seems to know why this is the case?
If an airline was choosing whether to fly from BHX, MAN or EMA, all other things being equal, it would choose the airport with lowest fees.

BHX's catchment area has no less than 35 million people within a 2 hours drive, more than any other airport in the UK.
Why isn't Mr Kehoe using this good fortune?
He is an acknowledged environmentalist and often bangs on about public transport access to the airport but rarely does he mention that half the country can drive to BHX in 2 hours - he should be continually reminding the public of that fact.
Manchester airport is about to provide 9,000 additional parking spaces on fields adjacent to the airport.
This is something Paul Kehoe should have tackled years ago for BHX, provide lots of very cheap parking, possibly free for bona fide business travellers.

Mr Kehoe was CEO at LTN and BRS, strangely both airports boomed after he moved on.
It could have been due to policies he introduced while in charge, if so I wish he could do the same for Birmingham.

[eggc]

You maybe correct in saying 35 million live within 2 hours of Birmingham, but that would include Manchester and London would it not at its furthest reaches, and nobody from those areas are going to fly from BHX when they have many more services on offer from their doorstep. So how many do you knock off that 35m that would actually fly from BHX ? IMO 35m is a mile off the mark as regards to BHX actual catchment...and there lies its problem I think...it is well and truly sandwiched between the London airports and MAN, an unfortunate geographical problem that will never go away for BHX.

[purebeef]

Now do you believe what I said about incentives......MAG sees BHX as a threat.... But on the other hand..Air Blue will not last very long at Stanstead... They would have been better off at Luton...

Does BHX need Air Blue... Not really.

[ATNotts]

BHX's catchment area has no less than 35 million people within a 2 hours drive, more than any other airport in the UK.

Another case of lies, darned lies, and statistics! Many of the millions that live 2 hours from BHX also live within 30 minutes of MAN, EMA, LBA, LTN, LHR, BRS etc etc.

If the UK has a problem, it's that there are just too many airports all vying for the same business. Germany has exactly the same problem, exacerbated by the conversion of heaven knows how many ex air force basis, into commercial airports.

hammerb32

I wasn't particularly aiming at you, just making the point that sometimes people have to accept what has happened - and move on!

[LGS6753]

I understand that the important measure when determining the size of an airport's catchment area is the population within a 1-hour drive time.
This measure tends to cut out silly duplication (such as Watford being <2 hours from BHX) yet includes populations where access to two or more airports is a feasible option (such as Stoke re BHX and MAN).

[spottilludrop]

Had a look at the new monarch hangar today...very impressive great for the airport that we have a maintenance facility like this at brum

[hec7or]

also impressive if you're trying to land in a 25kt crosswind from the southwest

[chinapattern]

PK just on Midlands Today and appeared to confirm Biman; when pressed about what airlines BHX might be seeing in the future he merely talked about airlines that will be using the new hangar which seems to suggest nothing else in the pipeline

[spottilludrop]

Console yourself hector that if you do make a total hash of it there is a nice big hangar ready and waiting for your bent steed:ok:

[ATNotts]

PK just on Midlands Today and appeared to confirm Biman; when pressed about what airlines BHX might be seeing in the future he merely talked about airlines that will be using the new hangar which seems to suggest nothing else in the pipeline

I have to say Kehoe came across pretty weakly in the interview, but then again it really is difficult to interview well when put up against a "journalist" who frankly wasn't up to the job.

She asked a few inane questions, he gave some pretty wool answers.

[chinapattern]

I also thought naming the 787 as one of the biggest aircraft in the world was a bit of an exageration.

[Planeaddict]

PK just on Midlands Today and appeared to confirm Biman; when pressed about what airlines BHX might be seeing in the future he merely talked about airlines that will be using the new hangar which seems to suggest nothing else in the pipeline

Didn't he say that they'd be the first ones to use the runway extension?

[nigel osborne]

China Pattern,

So because he doesn't mention any new airlines the airport may or may not be in serious talks with.How do you conclude that there is nothing in the pipeline :confused: ?

There may not be, but are they really going to divulge that,which airports do , on who they are in serious talks with.Did Manchester boss say that Saudia were starting before an airline announcement, or that flights with US Air to Charlotte would be starting next year ?

He only mentioned Biman, after BHX appeared on Biman own website

Nigel

[chinapattern]

Well I wasn't expecting specifics but I thought it would have been a good opportunity to reveal a few hints; perhaps the sort of markets that are underserved. He was asked what kind of airlines BHX could be seeing in the future but his response was a rather vague and they seemed to be a crossed purposes most of the time.

The fact Biman was mentioned suggests that at least BHX-DAK is in the bag.

[chaps2011]

Chinapatern
With Biman don`t believe anything until you see the whites of the eyes of the cockpit crew as they taxi in! I think it was over a year from when they first announced they were coming to MAN and they actually arrived and then on many cases the flight was over a day late.


Chaps

[clipstone1]

Hmmm and that it is the only hangar in the UK capable of taking the 787???

Have MAEL not noticed that this week a TOM787 was in the Luton TOM Hangar? (bearing in mind it is next door to their luton facilities)

[nigel osborne]

Clipstone1.

Yes good point about the 787 in the LTN hangar, suppose they are not going to promote another airline facility though.

I done blame them about boasting about the BHX new one, its very large and state of the art new build. Its also being very well used with so far never less than 2 planes inside at the same time.

A Thomson 763 G-DBLA is due about now from LGW, for checks before return to lessers and will join a MON A300 MON 757 and Fly Be 195 and Dash 8 already inside.

Already 2 Fly Dubai 738s and other larger stuff scheduled for next month at BHX.

Nigel

[Wycombe]

The new BHX hangar featured on BBC Breakfast in the UK yesterday (Tues) morning.

Interviews were conducted against a backdrop of what looked like the "Captain's Choice" 757.

[groundhogbhx]

If you believe what PK said on Midlands Today it was the airport company that went out and recruited all those engineers from LTN, MAN and LGW. And there I was thinking it was MAEL that sorted out the staff for their hangar. :mad:

[HoneyBunny]

Groundhog.

I was wondering how many 'new' engineering jobs have been created so far. Is that correct that MAEL have resourced from the existing bases? Also I guess the ex Flybe guys from the old hangars would be included as well.I'd heard that there were about 70 engineers ,mechanics, etc there at the moment.

Honeybunny

[nigel osborne]

Honey Bunny,

Re new jobs 150, plus another potential 150 I believe, takes a long time to train apprentices up in this field I would imagine.

Nigel

[groundhogbhx]

There are some 'new' jobs as I know someone who was taken on, there has also been the apprentices trotted out for the TV. How many are transfers and how many are new I wouldn't like to guess, but I would say that once the apprentice numbers are taken out the new staff (those who are in their first permanent job after qualification) would be pretty low.

It should also be noted that not all the jobs are engineers, as there are back room jobs as well as the boys and girls who get up close and personal with the aircraft.

[getonittt]

Interesting to see the elmdon apron packed with G.A. aircraft today . Nice gesture by the resident FBO's to reduce charges for those who were visiting to attend the flying show at the NEC . Even an impromptu aerobatic display by one aircraft on arrival and departure.

[Bagso]

Does anybody know why the BHX UA ended up in Manchester Saturday....

Not aware of any fog or crosswind !

Pilot suggested fuel divert !

[Off Stand]

Runway was closed when it arrived. Circled for a while, still closed, so had to divert to MAN due to a lack of fuel. I believe the runway was meant to be open at 0600, but it was quite a while after that when it actually did open I hear. Happy to be corrected.

[LAX_LHR]

Correct. Runway should have opened at 0600 but remained closed until 0715, so UA diverted for fuel.

[rutankrd]

Late hand back , diversion and fuel plus expenses and admin.

The runway maintenance/extension contractors will have a nice bill to pay.

:ok:

[Diverskii]

I take it the new hangar is owned by Monarch, and the likes of Thomson et al pay Monarch a fee for being able to use the hangar?

[nigel osborne]

Newish RAF 330, ZZ332 due into BHX today,lunchtime, for interior work by Monarch Engineering :ok:

Nigel

[groundhogbhx]

Diverskii, you would be correct. The hangar is operated by MAEL and aircraft going in there will be for maintenance by MAEL. I'm sure that if TOM needed to get a based aircraft in to do some major unscheduled work under cover, and there was space, they would reach a deal.

[Wycombe]

Within the article below is a statement from Flybe that BHX will (re)gain a NQY route in Summer'14:

Cornwall-to-London Flybe route threat lifted | Exeter Express and Echo (http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Cornwall-London-Flybe-route-threat-lifted/story-20248552-detail/story.html)

This seems to be in order to utilise the NQY "based" aircraft, which will only be flying twice a day between NQY and LGW next Summer (instead of the 3 times daily schedule that operated most days this year).

I believe this used to be a Bmibaby route from BHX, which was moved to EMA, then chopped when Baby started to prune it's network.

[GayFriendly]

Interesting development and nice to see a new route from BE! However, BE operated BHX-NQY in the past, I think the year after Baby dropped it so technically I suppose it's a re-instated route.....I assume they use a 175 on NQY-LGW so that will be what they use to BHX between LGW flights? Hope it works this time, no airline has lasted more than a season so far on this route which I find strange given the long car and even longer (6 hour plus) train journey to get there. I guess being leisure focused it's a low yield route?

[Cloud1]

Its op by a Q400

[nigel osborne]

Gayfriedly,

Its not rocket science for the airlines, Newquay is only very busy for the 6 week summer holiday, bank holidays and perhaps a week around Easter.

Little wonder no one can make a go of it for a whole season from BHX so why do they keep trying to magic up passengers that won't be there the rest of the time ?

Nigel

[OltonPete]

Newquay

The last attempt by flybe seemed disappointing (pax figures) and the fact it only operated for one season you have to assume it wasn't successful. If it does happen and they can hub it with some of the Scottish & Irish routes but without conflicting with the NQY-MAN then maybe they can give it a go.

If LGW operates twice a day then the BHX service inbound will be around 11-11.30 and this will connect with the 12-12.30 Scottish departures and possibly DUS and AMS. The next problem would be the return - would it go straight back or operate a BHX flight? If it operated a BHX flight then it would go back to NQY around 16.30 again connecting with some of the Scottish and Irish inbound bank.

However if MAN-NQY is offering all this already and it is going to rely on all O & D traffic, then it could prove difficult once again.

Aegean

Progress - on their website dropdown and GDS even has an Olympic code-share although not really sure if that means anything with the merger.

Pete

[cornishsimon]

The NQY based DH8 currently operates the three daily LGW flights plus the MAN rotation.


cs

[chinapattern]

Good to see BHX bagging a west-coast route with the runway extension lol

[nigel osborne]

Chinapattern

Could almost squeeze a Dash off just the extension bit :)

Nigel

[crewmeal]

David Cameron takes his 'cronies' to China - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/10487691/David-Cameron-takes-his-cronies-to-China.html)

I wonder if anyone from the BHX management team were on this flight to go and promote BHX and of course all the tourist hot spots in and around the city. If they were good luck to them, I hope they come back with lots of nice pressys for the airport and the region. If not then another opportunity missed.

[justplanecrazy84]

Marketing Birmingham | Birmingham Airport Aim To Increase Chinese Visitors To The Region Through New Partnership With Caiss (http://ow.ly/rpnQo)

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal,

Doubt ir Mr K and a team have only just come back from China !!

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

Aer Lingus regional increasing BHX-SNN from 1 daily to 2 daily from April 2014.

[JennyB]

Improved customer service for Chinese visitors into and departing from Birmingham Airport with an emphasis on VAT refund facilities, Chinese signage and staff with specialist language skills.

Is that Brummie to English?

"Ow yow" does sound a little bit Chinese though, so might work out!

[ericlday]

What Kung Fu dat ?

[JennyB]

Vistors may be confused when going into Tie Rack and asking for a Kipper Tie, only to be sent to the nearest cafe.

[nigel osborne]

Jenny B,

Sadly Tie Rack went bust last week..

Nigel

[Ringwayman]

Routesonline has an article on the BHX efforts to attract a China link. It also lists the bi-diretional flow of origin + destination passengers between UK and China in 2012.

Of the 3 airports pushing for a link, in ascending order:

Edinburgh 38,816 passengers
Birmingham 58,988 passengers
Manchester 145,812 passengers.

The figures for MAN equate to fractionally under 200 passengers each way each day so you can work out what BHX + EDI are like.

[nigel osborne]

Ringwayman;

Don't be surprised if EDI pulls off a Chinese flt somehow before BHX or MAN, they are on a massive roll , even a shortish runway ..no problem for EDI ??.. who are walking on water at present :ok:

Nigel

[getonittt]

Edinburgh 38,816 passengers
Birmingham 58,988 passengers
Manchester 145,812 passengers


You also conveniently left out Gatwick which showed 44,805 passengers and already has a direct flight!

[LAX_LHR]

You also conveniently left out Gatwick which showed 44,805
passengers and already has a direct flight!

No, he deliberately said:

Of the 3 airports pushing for a link, in ascending order:

As you say, LGW has a link so he omitted on purpose.