BIRMINGHAM - 6

[nigel osborne]

Chinapattern,

Re Air India , think yours is a pretty fare assessment and we shall have to see what happens.

Nigel

[FlyboyUK]

Hec7or

Actually they're the ex Cityflyer Express RJ100's which came to BHX when BA purchased BRAL & merged it with Brymon to form BA Citiexpress. BRAL also had a handful of 146's, but these never operated out if BHX.

Anyway back on topic...

[radar707]

BA A380 due in today or so I hear

[crewmeal]

BA A380 due in today or so I hear

In that case why hasn't the BHX PR team swung into action?

[Planeaddict]

BA A380 due in today or so I hear

No mention of it recently.

There's nothing on the BHX website either.

[RealFish]

It went to Cardiff this morning as BA9150. Perhaps it's beginning its tour?

[LAX_LHR]

As far as the latest plan, its flying MSE-CWL-STN/overnight/STN-SNN-LGW-LHR.

No BHX flight seems to be in the system.

The above is a tour for diversion alternates testing that do not regularly receive an A380 service.

[Planeaddict]

I saw a plane out of my window making a sharp turn on the ILS, heading towards RWY15. At first I thought it was the A380 but I think i'm wrong.

[hec7or]

Actually they're the ex Cityflyer Express RJ100's which came to BHX when BA purchased BRAL & merged it with Brymon to form BA Citiexpress. BRAL also had a handful of 146's, but these never operated out if BHX.


Oh were they now, well they were so bl@@dy slow through the Daventry CTA I always assumed they were the 146.

RJ100/BAe146 what is the difference, do we agree that they are not BA mainline.

[Businesstraveller]

hec7or: Fail: They're BAe 146s operated by BRA, which became BA Connect.



Yes. Well I'm quite happy to defer to your superior knowledge on that matter. The basic point I was making is still valid however.

[hec7or]

Couldn't agree more, I think the lack of BA at BHX is a real weakness, perhaps they were inserting a subliminal image to start the ball rolling!

The point about the BA presence at BHX not being BA Mainline is to emphasise BA's lack of commitment.

[Occams Razor]

I saw a plane out of my window making a sharp turn on the ILS, heading towards RWY15. At first I thought it was the A380 but I think i'm wrong.
You are correct in saying you are wrong.

[GayFriendly]

I’d be inclined to say that Air India's return won’t have that much of a detrimental effect on EK’s loads as primarily they are targeting the BHX-ATQ traffic

I think the one to feel the most immediate effect will be T5 - their route from BHX survives on ATQ transit pax, there is very little demand to go to Ashgabat itself (have you tried getting a visa, it's quite complicated!) and they don't have many other onward connections either. I hope they stick around, they have been very loyal to BHX through tough times in the past. The presence of AI will be tough for them, given that this time round AI have to fill their planes entirely on BHX O&D traffic with no transit pax to rely on to/from YYZ.

The presence of TK will also affect this third generation AI operation, they offer good connections and competitive fares to India from BHX - and I should imagine a double daily BHX-IST can't be too far away. I guess a lot will come down to price, AI lead in fares on their website are attractive and although I find TK a very good airline I would personally rather fly non stop to DEL given the option than change aircrafts.

EK - I think they have sufficient other onward connections to survive but as pointed out pax that may have used them for DEL might now be tempted to AI. I know that there are often a lot of Indian connections on these flights, it will be interesting to see who they choose from 1st Aug.

QR - I think with AI starting BHX will be pushed even further down their list of priorities now.

AI need to run a reliable and punctual operation at BHX - I like others am thrilled they are back and I hope this time it's for the duration and that it's not just a proving route for their 787 before they on a whim find somewhere else for it to fly....I look forward to seeing pictures from this Thursdays launch day (assuming no more Dreamliner oven fires.....)

[chinapattern]

Having clocked up nearly fifteen years operating from BHX I should imagine they've built up quite a loyal customer base. Indeed, I seem to remember reading a few years back that the BHX was more profitable for them than LHR which I believe is x2 weekly as opposed to BHX's x4. However, they were recently voted the worst airline in the world in some poll I read so that's hardly a great endorsement but as always for some people as long as the price is right that's all that matters. They managed to survive Air India's presence before as well as the likes of Mahan Air in recent years so with a bit of luck they'll continue to do OK this time around too. It would be a shame to lose one of our more exotic tails.

[getonittt]

Gay friendly , I really had to smirk with your quote :

EK - I think they have sufficient other onward connections to survive

Umm hellooooo

Whenever we have a topic that involves a carrier flying anywhere further east than Greece people are hell bent on sending everyone to india!!
The Asian/Asian british : indian population of the west midlands is around 4% and indeed all Asian ethnic groups together hardly come to 10% , so what about the other 4.5 Million , can't they fly anywhere else? . Yes it is no coincidence that Air India have chosen to serve BHX again, and hopefully it will draw pax from the East midlands and other neighbouring areas instead of them having to trapse down to LHR (that is the pax leakage it hopefully will remedy) But don't forget there are plenty of people that want to go other places and TK/EK/ The European hubs and even T5 will be fine :)

[GayFriendly]

According to the AI website, the first four BHX-DEL-ATQ flights are sold out, first bookable is Thurs 8th Aug. All other sectors bookable, including inaugural ATQ-BHX doing the journey in other direction.

[nigel osborne]

Gayfriendly,

Re AI,

Great to see the first 4 flights are sold out , the route was popular and successful last time although was through to YYZ .

Nigel

[David Sharpe]

Not sure if has been noted anywhere, but the Aer Lingus Dublin service seems to reduce by 4 x weekly services from middle of August, Regional take out 4 services (was this originally planned to run at 20 x weekly until the end of the Summer timetable ?)

Also, Thomson Airways service to Malaga, in addition to the Sunday service resuming for the Winter wef 10NOV13, they also appear to have put in a Thursday service commencing 13MAR14, operating to the end of April when everything switches back to Monarch again.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

All this focus on gaining some narrow long haul routes. Who cares? Thriving shops, taxi's, shops, baggage handlers, pushback crews, hire car agents, bar staff etc etc all rely on thriving every day/week round seat sales in volume.

BHX is an under-utilised white elephant as long as it retains its stubborn focus on being a long haul competitor to MAN or LHR.


BRS kicks its ass for profitability..


WWW

[GayFriendly]

Who cares?

Who cares about BRS? Probably not many on here as it is the BHX thread. Both airports are good at what they do, get over it! I flew from both BRS and BHX in June and was very satisfied with both airport experiences.

I'm sure if BRS regained a long haul flight you would be very happy or were you against the CO flight BRS-EWR as that too was a narrow long haul route?

Thriving shops, taxi's, shops, baggage handlers, pushback crews, hire car agents, bar staff etc etc all rely on thriving every day/week round seat sales in volume

Ah ha, so you have been through BHX recently!

I don't know about profitability of the two airports, maybe BRS is the more profitable? Can you supply documented figures for BRS compared to BHX profitability to back up your claim? Thanks

[nigel osborne]

Weeweasley.

Re Profit BHX and BRS.

Yes Bristol made more profit up to end of 2012 than BHX but it was down on the previous year whilst BHX profit went up quite a lot.

So sure you can take the fact that BRS looses its long haul TOM Orlando flts next summer after loosing New York United flts..whilst BHX does not :ouch:

Nigel

[crewmeal]

I will reopen that old chestnut about Lusgate (BRS) being built out of an old farm with little hope of runway expansion and suggest CWL has a better chance of longhaul operations in the future.

If Filton were to remain an option then I'm sure it would have been a good second London airport with all the motorway and rail connections. However the council have chosen otherwise so poor passengers have to navigate in and out of the city centre on the A38 with very little in way of transportation apart from an odd bus connection.

Long live the Mendips:D

[Alvechurch]

Of course there is that little matter of the BRS owners arranging the airport's finances so as not to pay any corporation tax!
If they're still at it, it's no wonder BRS's profits look good in comparison to BHX. :suspect:

[GayFriendly]

Of course there is that little matter of the BRS owners arranging the airport's finances so as not to pay any corporation tax!

Very interesting. Where are you now Wee Weasley? Looking forward to your reply unless you are too busy trolling another airport......

[ATNotts]

Wee Weasley Welshman

BHX is an under-utilised white elephant as long as it retains its stubborn focus on being a long haul competitor to MAN or LHR.

Must say a pretty curious (combative some might say) post- especially from someone who considers himself a "moderator" - presumably for this website / forum?

I would just point out that with it's short, and unextendable runway, the profile of which resembles a relief map of the Cotswolds, BRS doesn't have the opportunity to court long haul - at least BHX does, though I would agree with your point regarding BHX' obsession with long haul.

[ssflyer]

GF
"Where are you now Wee Weasley?"
Read his profile-answer "in the left seat with a major airline"
Having said that I do agree that his comments do not enhance his position as a "moderator"
SS

[GayFriendly]

ssflyer, sorry, just because someone 'sits in the left seat with a major airline' it does not give anyone the right (least of all a so called 'moderator') to make such negative and combative posts with no factual back up. He also needs to understand the term 'white elephant' - in modern English a business venture considered without use or value. I hardly think this describes BHX (or BRS).

He obviously has a problem with BHX as he has made postings of a similar nature before. More fool me for being drawn into it.

[Gentle Climb]

I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on WWW. Maybe he has a point (other than the profitability figures that I have no idea about!).
There does appear to be a degree of unjustified expectation that BHX deserves a share of the long haul market whether or not it is possible.
Simply reading here over the last few years there is an oscillation between BHX being far enough away from LHR & MAN to justify long haul routes on it's own, to being close enough to LHR to act as some sort of hub.
Perhaps the runway extension has served to fire up the expectation of longer routes and larger aircraft with BHX supporters. Who knows what the real impact of the extension will be, it's cost an awful lot of money? I hope that it works.
The long/er haul experience to date is that many have come and gone, only Emirates and Continental have hung around. The risk of attracting long haul is that it can go away again very easily.
The airport needs to decide exactly what it needs to be to maximise it's potential. At the moment it appears a little confused.
WWW is right, the airfield is under utilised. I'm based at BHX and visit many similar airfields that are generally busier places to operate.

I don't think that WWW made particularly controversial comments, even a moderator has the right to an opinion that may not be liked by all. I refer you to his comments regarding pilot recruitment a few years back. Highly accurate.

[getonittt]

Gentle climb

Thank you for your post , a well worded opinion , unlike others who just come in to bash or to say our airport is better than your airport .
On one point you made :
Who knows what the real impact of the extension will be, it's cost an awful lot of money?

As i stated in a post a few pages back it really didn't cost the airport THAT much , the majority of the funding came from elsewhere . And besides, With the major projects going on at the airport it has to be good news for the construction industry in these lean times.

[ATNotts]

Gentle Climb

The long/er haul experience to date is that many have come and gone, only Emirates and Continental have hung around

Those two, plus PIA, who've been at BHX for years and Turkmenistan - likewise.

However I do agree that given the allegedly improving UK economy, there is a case for putting more effort into filling the gaps that exist in BHX route network to several import European capitals - but preferably not with lesiure orientated less than daily services.

[chinapattern]

Hope someone has got their camera as it should be quite as impressive sight down at BHX this evening; assuming everything is on time the Air India flight and both the EK and PIA 777's should (briefly) be all on the ground at the same time. Good to see the International Pier living up to it's name.

[nigel osborne]

Gentleclimb,



However as you say he is entitled to his opinion as we all are.

In a few minutes as already stated, BHX will have on the ground 2 B777s and an AI B787 all on the International Pier.A World Class pier capable of handling 7 widebodies at the same time

BHX certainly needs more European services but Birmingham are trying as hard as they can to get more

However its a proud day for BHX today long haul wise, and with a new runway extension , new pier, new ILS and a new World class MAEL hangar almost complete, Birmingham is in a fantastic position for expansion in the future.

Well done BHX :D

Nigel

[FRatSTN]

Air India has just landed in Birmingham, smack on time!

[Planeaddict]

I caught the approach on camera from my window - can't wait to see some pictures, not only of the plane there, but the International Pier with Emirates & PIA also on it. :8

[LAX_LHR]

Great day for BHX, nice to see more B787's doing what its supposed to, long and thin routes.

Lets just hope AI have the staying power this time and don't get distracted again.

[philw492]

Even better! the EK 777 is the 1000th 777, A6-EGO. It just flew over south Birmingham, and I am pretty sure I could make out the '1000th 777' on the fuselage.

Checked on flightradar24.com and it is indeed A6-EGO, with PIA, EK and AI all in at the same time it'll make a good photo but also going to make the airport amazingly busy!

[Occams Razor]

"Amazingly busy" is a little far fetched. Don't get me wrong, it's a great achievement to get another carrier to operate from BHX (for the third time) but it's being talked up on here as if it were the second coming of Christ.

[xanda_man]

It was nice to see the AI 788 come in, lots of activity on the ramp as well, 1000th EK 777, PIA 773 and the AI 788 so all in all it was a nice view this evening @ BHX.

Also had the Air Lingus Logo jet in this afternoon and a very hairy go around from the Aer Arann ATR about 10 mins before the AI flight that prompted a runway inspection as tower thought he'd scraped his ar$e during the process.

Good day for BHX and a great day for spotting

(in addition to the above post - definitely not amazingly busy, but good to see another carrier, even if it is for the 3rd time. Sometimes a little change and a new carrier/aircraft type is nice for us locals - so please allow us to get a tad excited at that. Nobody is suggesting it's like LHR up here are they :) )

Xanda

[bhx bod]

Just as well the 3 long haul flights did not land within a few minutes of each other.The arrivals area can get extremely crowded and chaotic when the EK and a few short hauls come in together both at lunchtime and in the evening.
Thank goodness I am not in work tonight.
On the European capitals front what price MON giving Prague and/or Budapest
a go next spring/summer???
All in all these are interesting and exciting times at BHX.;)

[LAX_LHR]

On the European capitals front what price MON giving Prague and/or
Budapest


I wouldn't rule Monarch out of giving Madrid another go from a few airports either.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote"If Filton were to remain an option then I'm sure it would have been a good second London airport with all the motorway and rail connections. However the council have chosen otherwise so poor passengers have to navigate in and out of the city centre on the A38 with very little in way of transportation apart from an odd bus connection."

Only in "FR world".



Quote"Air India has just landed in Birmingham, smack on time!"

The hat tastes much better than expected......

[chaps2011]

It would have tasted better with a good curry sauce! Fairdealfrank

Chaps

[bhx bod]

I don't think this has been mentioned before but it would appear that RYR has added a 4th daily rotation on it's DUB route from BHX for the winter.
4 other airports are also getting extra flights to/from DUB as RYR goes for it against EIN/EIR and their extra flights.

[philw492]

"Amazingly busy" is a little far fetched. Don't get me wrong, it's a great achievement to get another carrier to operate from BHX (for the third time) but it's being talked up on here as if it were the second coming of Christ.


When I say 'amazingly busy', knowing various people working at BHX in various positions, having those flights come in does make them 'amazingly busy' when the EK and PIA comes in let alone with AI. I'm not hyping it up making it sound like the "second coming of Christ", which some people may be doing but I was just talking in terms of volume of people rather than anything else as BHX as everyone knows is not a big airport and 2x 777 and 1x 787 at the same time on top of other flights would make it busy. With the volume of passengers and families meeting them, the arrivals hall and also the UKBA/UKBF (whatever they are called now) area would be busy if it were anything like it was when I came through on EK37 on 7/7/13 at which point it was only the EK37 flight that landed around then as it was a Sunday.

[OltonPete]

Where do I start.

xanda_man

I was directly in line with the Aer Arann landing or touch and go whatever you want to call it, as I was on the golf course waiting for the AI. It was difficult to believe what I was seeing, 15kts on the nose, at least two bumps, millimetres from a tail-scrape and then a power on and climb away. I would love to see a replay to see if I actually saw what I think I saw.

This leads me on to Arann/Lingus - EI262/3 downgraded to the A319 from next Monday every weekday until the end of summer. As previously mentioned on pprune the Dublin service is only 4 a day some days in August and September.

Ryanair - Wholesale changes to winter timings but at least with the addition of the 10.00-12.35 Dublin it means three aircraft are used each day.
Not sure about an inbound Bergamo at 07.50 on a Tuesday in winter though.

Monarch - lots of rumours and certainly Prague & Madrid would be welcome.

International Pier

I must admit it did look good this evening and in general a reasonable amount of movements to a reasonable spread of destinations.

June Domestic stats

Monthly pax figures from the CAA and the number of rotations from local SBS records. 2012 in brackets and Jersey/Guernsey added together.

easyjet was okay but a slight dip in load factor on May I believe and flybe did well considering easy added nearly 12000 and BMI baby operated for 10 days in June 12.

Aberdeen..........9171 (7785)......49 pax........60%
Belfast City.....23517 (26399)...68 pax.......62%
Belfast Int.......11938 (nil).......109 pax.......70%
Londonderry...4492 (4809)....107 pax........57%
Edinburgh......24544 (24925)....75 pax........73%
Glasgow.........17939 (18264)....55 pax........53%
Inverness.........3345 (3247)......56 pax........64%
Isle of Man......4006 (4582)......43 pax........53%
Guernsey.........3221 (2615)
Jersey...............4695 (5367)......52 pax.........62%
Newcastle.........743 (953).........10 pax.........34%

Pete

[Alvechurch]

Pete, as ever thanks for the stats.

Apparently the diversion of the A45 on to the new section begins today (2nd August).
Bound to be a bit chaotic as there will be just a single lane open in each direction.
Going to take about 9 days in all.

[xanda_man]

OltonPete

I was directly in line with the Aer Arann landing or touch and go whatever you want to call it, as I was on the golf course waiting for the AI. It was difficult to believe what I was seeing, 15kts on the nose, at least two bumps, millimetres from a tail-scrape and then a power on and climb away. I would love to see a replay to see if I actually saw what I think I saw.

Pete, glad it wasn't just me that saw this but you would have definitely had a better view than us down at the Sheldon/Marston Green end. There were quite a few filming as you would expect so I'm sure we'll see something on't youtube soon enough. But you're right, it was hard to watch. Must have been the pressure with all the crowds watching :O

[kasuga]

The aer arran/ei flt from Knock did in fact have a tail strike as it went tech on arrival and aer arran sent an engineer for an inspection.believe it was due to ferry back late last night ??:eek:

[planenut321]

ATR-72 TAILSTRIKE & GO-AROUND - BHX - YouTube

The EIR landing.

[BombardierCR7]

According to the Airblue website, they will commence LHE and ISB to BHX from 28th Sept. Twice weekly Weds and Sat.

[nigel osborne]

More great news fior BHX.

Air Blue start A340 flighs to Lahore and Islamabad from 28th Sept :D :ok:

: : : airblue : : : (http://www.airblue.com/index.asp)

[chinapattern]

You wait years for a new long haul route and then two come along once! Great news; although it would have been good to see them launch Karachi. But staying positive and really good to see a new airline and new destination plus BHX's first scheduled A340 flight! :ok:

[crewmeal]

For anyone in the know - does the A340 have payload restrictions at BHX? Will it be able to operate with a normal load? Is this the reason BHX hasn't seen an A340 before?

[GrahamK]

And can you turn an A343 around in 65 mins?

[chinapattern]

For anyone in the know - does the A340 have payload restrictions at BHX? Will it be able to operate with a normal load? Is this the reason BHX hasn't seen an A340 before?

Not sure about payload restrictions but come Spring at least that won't be an issue; as I understand it only the A346 can't operate at BHX; the longer wheel base makes it impossible to turn at certain points along the taxiway but whether this has changed I don't know.

As for BHX not seeing the A340 before - with the exception of diverts and the Saudi VIP jet - this is more likely just down to the fact that no airlines operating from BHX have the A340 in their fleet, with the exception of EK whose A340's are fitted with first class.

At one point Mahan Air were in the process of leasing an A340 from Hifly to operate BHX and KUL flights but nothing ever came of it. Even Hellenic made rumblings about re-starting with the ex-Olympic A340s.

[Planeaddict]

It looks to be a 2x weekly Birmingham-Islamabad-Lahore.

Looks like long-haul is finally materialising at BHX. This means we may well see Airblue, PIA, Air India and Emirates on the ground at the same time on a Saturday. :cool:

[splash&dash]

Good news about Air Blue but how will that affect PIA? Can the route sustain both? Hmmm I fear not but hope to be proven wrong.
I'd've much preferred an AA restart to ORD instead or another destination not in direct competition with another route. Beggars can't be chooses I suppose.

Allegedly BHX will be A340-600 compliant after the runway resurfacing is completed. During that time a couple of taxiway corners will be widened.

Hats off to the hat eating posters on here who graciously accepted defeat and did not run away to hide. Respect!

[mart901]

NOC still not on winter timetable.

[chaps2011]

Spalsh and dash

Are any stands capable A340-600 as that is a major problem also turning on to stands and push back

Chaps

[GayFriendly]

There was a leak on Twitter last year about this, although at the time Air Blue denied any plans to launch a BHX route. I'm very glad it has finally come to fruition. However the impacts on PK and to a lesser extent EK will be interesting. They all seem to co-exist at MAN. I think BHX has the Midlands demand for the Indian sub continent market sown up for now? :D Next stop China?? ;)

Seeing as things seem to be on a roll, would now love to see TOM add some long haul capacity and destinations, VS do a seasonal Orlando and some of those city gaps filled in Europe - MAD, PRG, ATH, WAW....

Air Blue Schedule:

Sat PA226 arr BHX 21.25 PA 227 dep 23.30

Wed PA226 arr BHX 20.15 PA227 dep 21.25 - from the end of October this flight departs at 22.30

Looks like the LHE flight according to website is a change of planes at ISB, as there are two different flight numbers presented on booking screen, although through fares are bookable.

[Planeaddict]

How will PIA react to the news? They could open up a route to Karachi as that isn't being served by Airblue as of yet.

[splash&dash]

Chaps2011

Yes, the large 'center' stands are compatable with the A346. In fact one of the 50's stands has had a stop mark for the A346 for a few years now.
Would be curious to know if there's any weight/performance restrictions off the existing runway length to ISB for the A343? Obviously it'll only be for a short time until the extension is complete.

[chinapattern]

There was a leak on Twitter last year about this, although at the time Air Blue denied any plans to launch a BHX route. I'm very glad it has finally come to fruition. However the impacts on PK and to a lesser extent EK will be interesting. They all seem to co-exist at MAN. I think BHX has the Midlands demand for the Indian sub continent market sown up for now? Next stop China??

Good to see a rumour coming true for a change, although I must admit I’d completely forgotten about that one. With the arrival of the 787 at BHX and with several Chinese carriers receiving them perhaps BHX-China is a slightly more viable prospect now. I’m still edging my bets that they have something up their sleeve for the runway opening.

[OltonPete]

xanda_man

Amazing, it is as I remember except I missed the strike/scrape, which considering how close I was is a little bit disappointing (age no doubt :sad:).

Air Blue

A post on another forum mentions a tech stop in Istanbul is listed in one system, which there would be no need on the westbound to BHX unless it was a 319/320.

A smaller aircraft might be wise to start with, that is how the Manchester service operated for a good few years although of course there was little choice and it was upgraded when the 340 arrived in the fleet.

Over 12 months I believe that the PIA averages less than 80% so something might have to give. However PIA still stick with the Thursday 77W (393 seats) and I am sure they wouldn't do that unless it was required most of the time.

Pete

[airnoc]

NOC still not on winter timetable .

Birmingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Airport) (ends 26 October 2013

Hopefully they can get a new carrier as Aer Lingus regional never really got off to a good start as it was late and going teck a bit often

[ssflyer]

Prices from £470 return inc taxes
cheap
SSF

[mart901]

airnoc

About 2 weeks ago SNN-BHX was re-timed on Tue,Fri,Sun for winter in such a way to allow an NOC w flight, but still nothing on sale. Really can't understand the delay

[justplanecrazy84]

Taken from another site.

Air Kashmir Flights Starting From Glasgow Manchester & Birmingham (http://www.mushtaqtravel.co.uk/blog/air-kashmir-flights-starting-from-glasgow-manchester-birmingham)

Website found.

AIR KASHMIR (http://www.airkashmir.org/)

[crewmeal]

I wouldn't take too much notice of that article (See MAN thread) No way is anyone or any company going to make money flying a knackered old 747-300 (unless it's freight only) in this day and age. Most of these 747's are in the desert being broken up for scrap.

We've heard all this sort of thing before with various entrepreneurs talking about starting an airline.

[chinapattern]

I wonder if the cabin crew will be trained for a whip round for the fuel bill?

[justplanecrazy84]

There is no way that I'm even taking this even slightly serious I find it hilarious!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Back on topic or the thread goes.

[BHX5DME]

3rd rotation and the B788 (VT-ANM) has gone tech !

I can confirm no flames :-)

[justplanecrazy84]

Apparently AI114 has returned back to the gate tonight due to technical problem! Hoping its not serious and gets sorted and on its way as it would be a shame things had been going well so far.

[justplanecrazy84]

BHX5DME you beat me to it! Lol

[Planeaddict]

Technical problems happen all the time. Hope it's sorted now though.

[LGS6753]

Departed 2247 according to FR24.

[crewmeal]

According to airline route Air Blue will only operate to ISB, but with a A340.

airblue to Start Islamabad ? Birmingham Service from late-September 2013 | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2013/08/06/pa-isbbhx-sep13/)

[Planeaddict]

Still don't get why it's taking off at 23:30 on the Saturday.

I think the Lahore bit is just an extension, probably a change of planes as well.

[adfly]

Isn't late evening a popular time for flights of this sort of distance to the middle east since they usually arrive in the morning of the next day, like the vast majority of eastbound transatlantic services.

[Planeaddict]

Isn't late evening a popular time for flights of this sort of distance to the middle east since they usually arrive in the morning of the next day, like the vast majority of eastbound transatlantic services.'

Yes, but usually we're looking at around 8-9pm, rather than 11:30pm.

[crewmeal]

Planeaddict you obviously have no idea about airline schedules, slots and aircraft availability along with all the other things associated with running an airline. I'm sure Air Blue are not too upset at your comments regarding timings and that it's not whizzing over your house during daylight hours.

[Kazamb]

It also has a lot to do with the availability of stands in ISB along with the arrival terminal capacity.

You don't want a number of PK, EK and PA flights landing within a 120 minute of each other, otherwise the 5 immigration desks at ISB simply are not gonna cope, never mind the two luggage carousels.

Also PA's flights terminate at LHE, as this is being heavily pushed by Airblue.

[ATNotts]

Still don't get why it's taking off at 23:30 on the Saturday

What's the problem? Is it past your bedtime?

[Ringwayman]

airblue may terminate at LHE but you will need to change at ISB

OUTBOUND FLIGHT: BIRMINGHAM > LAHORE
SATURDAY SEPTEMBER 28, 2013:

Flight # PA 227/427‡

Departs 23:30

Arrives 13:00

* NOTE: This direct flight will make an enroute stop

[LGS6753]

Air India and Air Blue will make a dent in Emirates' numbers, and will probably put Qatar off BHX.

[Planeaddict]

What's the problem? Is it past your bedtime?

It was a general question, which has been answered now. :)

[BHX5DME]

08 August 2013
http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/news/Air%20Blue%20Web.ashx 342 seat Airbus A340 aircraft

Birmingham Airport and Air Blue, Pakistan’s second largest airline, are pleased to announce that from 28th September the airline will start twice weekly flights between Birmingham and Lahore, via Islamabad.
The flight will be served by an all economy 342 seat Airbus A340 aircraft, each Wednesday and Saturday as follows:
• Wednesday - arrive into Birmingham at 2015, depart Birmingham at 2230
• Saturday - arrive into Birmingham at 2125, depart Birmingham at 2330
Mr Raza, Air Blue's Country Manager UK, said: “Air Blue is delighted to announce services to Islamabad and Lahore from Birmingham starting this September. We hope to continue on the success we have had so far in the UK and look forward to working with Birmingham Airport and the Midlands’ Pakistani community to make sure these services are a success and to grow our operation in the future.”
Air Blue is a scheduled carrier and operates services across Pakistan and the Middle East. Birmingham is the second UK airport that Air Blue will serve.
Martyn Lloyd, Birmingham Airport’s Commercial Director, added: “More than 200 thousand British Pakistani's live in the West Midlands so we’re really pleased to be able to announce these new flights, which will give business and leisure passengers even more choice from Birmingham to Pakistan.”

Flights can now be booked via www.airblue.com (http://www.airblue.com/) with lead in fares starting at £466 to Lahore return including taxes.

[bhx bod]

According to flyintobhx Facebook site flight FDX5204 on Friday morning from CDG will be an MD11.Apparantly this has been reported by airport workers as a weekend stopover.
Anybody any further info???

[OltonPete]

bhx bod

Apparently handling trials over the weekend in case of the need to replace the 757 if it goes tech or should I say when it goes tech.

Originally the A300 was due for similar trials several months ago but I don't think it turned up.

Runway

I actually drove on the new A45 loop today although only contra-flow at present with just the one side in use until the 12th.

Monarch hangar is also progressing well.

Pete

[bhx bod]

Thanks for your reply OP.
Even if it is a 1 off it is very welcome and who knows if successful could open a few doors.Freight flights in support of the auto trade in the Midlands might yet return to Brum.

[Planeaddict]

A new video update by Flugnug. :)

?v=Eqwrv5etKEg&

As you mentioned OltonPete, only one side is in use, but it still looks good.

[nigel osborne]

Re Fex Ex MD-11 at BHX,

On the ground now for ground handling training and is N590FE should be in till Mon.

Nigel

[Occams Razor]

Wwwwwooooowwwww, a video of a road! I never thought PpRuNe could be so interesting! Please, show me more.

[Flightmech]

It arrived from CDG as FX9141 for ramp training. Departs Monday 2150Z as FX9142. The regular 757 FX5204 operated CDG-MAN direct and will route MAN-CDG direct as FX5203 Monday.

Next weekend the MD-11 visits DUB.

[nigel osborne]

Flight mech re Fed Ex MD-11.

Interesting the plan had been that an A300 would be used if the 757 went tech, and it was planned to come for BHX for loading trials.

However it was cancelled both times. Now it seems Fed Ex intends to use MD-11s instead of A300s in those circumstances.

Does that signal thereforethey are thinking of withdrawing the A300s from the UK ?

Nigel

[Guest 112233]

Its a man thing and a woman thing too: if you have ever been involved in a large complex construction project, there are certain mile stones and even opening one side of a diverted road is a major step. OK the lighting now works.

The next one: will be completion of the road and construction of the extension proper. Note those new Approach Light stansions act as totem poles for those working - Physical harbingers for greater things to come.

Its psychology: There are a lot of hopes hanging on this project.

CAT III

[Flightmech]

The A300s will stay for a while. The spare is now a 757 so if the original breaks it should be replaced by another 757. We'd be having a really bad night if we had to use an MD11 to BHX but the current training will allow us to use it in a contingency situation. There is no longer a spare A300 in the EMEA region.

[nigel osborne]

Thanks Flightmech, makes the training with an MD more puzzling then ,but as a spotter, welcome.

How are the loads doing from BHX, could it support an MD-11 upgrade in the future via MAN or is such a short route to CDG unviable with such a big plane ?

Nigel

[NJTCF]

Maybe STN is at capacity and they might move a flight to BHX and fly MEM-BHX-CDG instead:ok:

[Flightmech]

We did the CDG-MAN-MEM with the MD11 for a while but there just wasnt the capacity.

[jamesp]

Regarding the md11 still there hasnt departed,
i saw the md11 this afternoon approx 430..as i boarded my flight to spain i asked about it to a worker in t2 the person reckons its staying there until thurs evening.

[bazzab68]

All

It's probable staying a long time now.. Just had engine fire on tail engine.. Fire bottle discharged. Not sure how they gonna fix this bad boy..


Barry

[chaps2011]

Pity Monarchs hangar not finished yet

Chaps

[Flightmech]

Tailpipe fire after flameout. Not engine fire. Different animals.

[bhx bod]

Flightmech.
I heard that the tail pipe and tail engine would have to be replaced.
Is this true,if so does STN have spare engines or would they come from CDG or even MEM?
Also how long do you think the MD could be stuck in Brum?:)

[nigel osborne]

BHX Bod,

Wonder if an engine would be flown into EMA and put on a lorry to BHX , thats what happened I think the last engine replacement that was needed at BHX although it was for an A320 ?.

Nigel

[Flightmech]

It's serviceable. Should be leaving 2330Z

[bhx bod]

Nigel,I was thinking more on the lines of a large Antonov.We have had them before and they have transported engines when needed so why not?
I have not been in Brum these last 2 days,did the MD depart as Flightmech predicted?
On the subject of Antonovs did you hear about semi-regular BHX visitor UR-CAG AN12.It burnt out while on the ground at Leipzig,so we won't be seeing that one again,shame I like old props!!:{

[GayFriendly]

Have just read the following on different forums, which could affect BHX route ops?

Germanwings - planning an all Airbus fleet from Summer '14 and cutting back on CR9 ops from this winter - how will this affect BHX-DUS and BHX-HAM which are currently CR9 operated?

Hainan Airlines - I am sure BHX must be in talks with Chinese operators as they have so publicly stated that they want a Chinese route. Hainan now have the 787, a possibility for BHX in the future? They fly to TXL, BUD, ZRH and BRU in Europe right now.

Emirates - planning double daily 380 ops from MAN 1st Dec onwards, can BHX take any more squeeze between continued capacity increases at LHR and MAN? I guess cargo helps which I think BHX does quite well on for EK?

Parked up next to the AI Dreamliner on Mon on the EI from DUB, it caused quite a stir amongst fellow pax with lots of camera phones suddenly appearing. It was an impressive sight to be so close up to it, especially as I was one of those who very much doubted it would ever appear (hat already eaten....)

[nigel osborne]

BHX-Bod.

Yes it departed just after midnight I think so problem couldn't have been that bad. Certainly no sign of it when I went past today.

Still chaotic on the roads. The new carriageways are open both ways but down to 1 lane both ways, so unless you have to give the area a miss.

Can't wait for the Monarch hangar to open, will certainly give us a great facility and sure some great 3rd party airlines ,on top of MON and BE.

Nigel

[chinapattern]

Hainan Airlines - I am sure BHX must be in talks with Chinese operators as they have so publicly stated that they want a Chinese route. Hainan now have the 787, a possibility for BHX in the future? They fly to TXL, BUD, ZRH and BRU in Europe right now.

Hainan have sadly dropped BUD-PEK; for me it always stood out as a bit of oddball route and after Malev suspended JFK and YYZ it was actually BUD's only long haul flight for a while - perhaps someone could fill me in. But I always thought that if they could make a route like that work then there could be hope for BHX bagging a Chinese carrier.

Given the presence of Star Alliance at BHX perhaps Air China could be a logical choice? I've no idea how there LGW flights are doing but as they are branching out from LHR perhaps there is potential here? Either way, the 787 is the plane for the job.

To be honest though I think getting Finnair with their connections to China would be great for BHX; along with TAP they are BHX's best chances of securing anymore Euro legacy carriers for the time being. And I know I've said it before but I still think Icelandair would be good for BHX as another option for the States.

And given Air Transat and all their upgrades/downgrades over the past few years perhaps Air Canada Rouge (Star Alliance again) is another one that should be on BHX's radar?

[LGS6753]

Emirates will struggle to expand from BHX. Much of their clientele is travelling to the Indian sub-continent and the competition to those markets has dramatically increased this year with TK 10x per week, AI and now Air Blue.

Don't hold your breath for a regular 380!

[Skipness One Echo]

Aren't all of those Hainan destinations capitals? I would imagine they'd attempt London in the first instance before Birmingham.

[adfly]

I think Manchester would be the most likely starting point for them in the UK, less (i.e. no) competition than LON and MAG have spent some time looking to secure a route to China.

[nigel osborne]

China Pattern,

Rouge Only UK destination is EDI at present and thats only because they have 2 way traffic,ie Canadians wanting to visit tourist areas of Scotland as well as Scottish passengers heading to Canada.. so very doubtful they will come here.They were expected to announce LGW but it never happened.

Emirates A380s at BHX..crikey we still have 2 class 77Ws as EK obviously not confident BHX can fill 8 1st class seats on a 3 class.. So to fill even more 1st class and more business class seats on an A380 !!

Air China yes can see that in the future, although MAN are boasting they will announce a Chinese service very soon and it could be Air China.

Nigel

[GayFriendly]

Aren't all of those Hainan destinations capitals?

Skipness: Sorry to be really picky, geographically they are not all capitals - Berne is the capital of Switzerland. For airlines though, ZRH is for sure the capital of Switzerland. I mentioned Hainan as the 787 would probably be a more suitable size of aircraft for a BHX - China route in the future than the 747/340/777's flown by other Chinese carriers. Agreed though, MAN would probably be their first regional UK choice :(

Nigel: I agree, I can't see an EK A380 (or QR) anytime soon at BHX, it is worrying that EK continue with only a 2 class service, this does not show any confidence in the premium market at BHX on a route that is now very well established. This must be something that other long haul airlines potentially looking at BHX have clocked.

china pattern - yes they would be a great add at BHX (it was recently rumoured but nothing so far has happened) What worries me is if the demand for flights to China from BHX is as strong as the airport claims would Finnair not already be capitalising on this from BHX given their excellent Far Eastern connections? I wonder how many people actually go to China from the BHX catchment either from LHR/LGW or from BHX via a European hub?

[nigel osborne]

Gayfriendly,

I think EK might have moved to a 3 class 77W if there hadn't been the complete saturation from MAN, with EK Qatar and Etihad "keeping up with the Jones" expansion.That hit our EK hard

TK expansion then slowed their progress. Recent months have seen steady increases once more so may get a 3 class next year if that continues.

Qatar for BHX who knows.. Helsinki are still waiting and that was after a joint press announcement from both that airport and Qatar 2 yrs ago.. Does them joining One World end our ambitions now, as they don't really do BHX ?

JLR are building a massive new plant in Shanghai China at present and with the Midlands close links with the motor industry ,wouldn't rule out a BHX-Shanghai in the future.

Nigel

[ATNotts]

Whilst it would be good to have the choice of a 3 class service on BHX-DXB, in these times when money is tight you have to ask who, apart from celebs and frivalous company directors can really justify the expense of first class?

Midlands SMEs will be struggling at the moment, especially in manufacturing, and there'll surely be a ban on using anything more expensive than business class. Large business with Midland based operations will often have their UK execs. based in and around London, where there is a totally different economy, and different attitude to spending (wasting) shareholders money.

"F" class has died out completely on European routes, in fact business class is virtually dead on it's feet too. I can see within a few years that most long haul ops will find themselves down to 2-class, Business and Cattle!

Those who insist on the comfort, or more likely qudos of First will wind up migrating to the likes of Netjets.

[nigel osborne]

ATNOTTS

Andrew I would have agreed with you few weeks back, but surprised to read a recent article saying more and more airlines are cutting economy pitch and putting an extra seat in across lot of wide bodies in economy.

This as they try to find ways to squeeze more lie flat beds,in the front end, as demand is booming.

Birmingham and Newcastle are now the only 2 airports in the UK that get 2 class machines, so there is certainly demand for top end seats in other places than London.

The Business Class product in many airlines has improved so much that there is now little difference between 1st and Business class .The latter used to just have bigger seats but most now have beds.

Certainly BHX would find it difficult to fill an A380 up front for a while, but can see a 3 class 77W possibly in the next 12-18 months.

Nigel

[BHX5DME]

All BHX Emirates flights are full in respect of cargo this being local and also roaded to BHX from London and Manchester
The A380 holds less cargo than the B773 so with Manchester going to 2 x A380 the pressure for freight space on going to increase further
Freight from BHX recently has been roaded to NCL as all BHX capacity is full

[ATNotts]

Freight from BHX recently has been roaded to NCL as all BHX capacity is full

Which is a very good reason why BHX should stick with the 773, rather than go A380.

Whilst passenger numbers always grab the headlines, cargo must be a very important revenue stream for Emirates from BHX and probably props up the route during the lean passenger times, such as Ramadan and high summer.

How much more uplift will be possible when the extra runway length is available I wonder.

[chaps2011]

MAN is to get a dedicated cargo from what I have heard with a B777F

Chaps

[nigel osborne]

Chaps2011,

Re EK and MAN 77F freight flights, this rumour has been doing the rounds for nearly 2 years.

Problem is EK have all their freight planes committed. For a large airlines they don't have many freighters ,so unless they drop a current one its going to be hard to find a spare plane ?

Nigel

[groundhogbhx]

AT Notts, the answer is none. EK are only restricted by MZFW at BHX, the runway is perfectly long enough for a full flight, pax and cargo, with enough fuel to hold at DXB for several hours if need be. Ramp fuel of 70+ tonnes happens quite often during the DXB fog season, normal is in the 50's.

[Airfrance7]

Emirates Sky Cargo have on order 5 X Boeing 777 - 200 Freighters. If Emirates Sky Cargo introduce a dedicated freighter into MAN then this could increase Cargo loads at BHX. Then maybe the introduction of a Boeing 777 - 300 ER at BHX to accommodate the extra space required in the lower hold for cargo.

[Ringwayman]

nigel, the SkyCargo ops at MAN have always been rumoured to be in conjuncton with the 2nd A380 service. Consequently with the seemingly soon permanent introduction of a 2nd daily A380 then the jungle drums will be beating louder for the dedicated freighter.

I do wonder if EK will go to 3 daily operation at BHX with the A350 as a way of increasing capacity and feeding into the earlier wave of departures at DXB, rather than going to 3 daily 77W which may be a slight overkill

[chaps2011]

Nigel
MAN could not cope with the cargo when and I say when the 2nd A380 comes
as we already ship large ammounts to BHX

Chaps

[Bagso]

I may be wrong but I thought "Rouge" benefitted from a hefty subsidy from some form of Scottish Development Fund, not too dissimilar to the same "pot" that paid for those "Visit Scotland" adverts which ran on TV for years.........

[All names taken]

Just reading this thread...... surely all of this cannot be right?
What posters are saying with EK is that MAN freight is being trucked to BHX and BHX freight is being trucked to NCL......:confused:

If the circumstances were in place that would lead to road freighting, would it not be more logical to truck MAN freight to NCL and leave BHX to deal with its own freight capacity issues?

I would suspect posters are taking examples of one off situations and assuming it is the norm.

[crewmeal]

What posters are saying with EK is that MAN freight is being trucked to BHX and BHX freight is being trucked to NCL......

Probably looks good on paper for BHX figures. Whereas if freight went from MAN - NCL then BHX would miss out altogether. Beancounters at work :)

[nigel osborne]

Airfrance7

Thanks for the info on the EK 77F order as I wasn't aware, not sure when they are due, but that might make one available for MAN depending on EKs freight priorities around the World.

Ringwayman,

Yes an A350-900 would be ideal for BHX expansion.

Chaps2011

The big problem with the A380-800 was its lack of cargo space, and wonder as the recession seems to be ending whether EK will be a launch customer of the streched A380-900 if it ever materialises.

Nigel

[chaps2011]

Just been reading that MAN EK load factor for last couple of weeks and through
Sept are in region of 97% even with extra A380 sheduled and EY and QR not far off so one presumes BHX figures should be good also

Chaps

[chaps2011]

EK figures for BHX down 10% to 34925 in July whilst all other airport well
up, very strange

Chaps

[j636]

passengers in July down 13.2%. Surly this is not right. Will have to see when they update in the afternoon to see if routes are missing.

[Planeaddict]

It says on the BHX Flight Guide that the number of passengers in July were in fact 1,005,096 - an increase of 2.9% on 2012.

Only the second time that there have been a million passengers in a month, since 2009.

[BHX5DME]

1,005,896 up 2.9%

[GayFriendly]

EK figures for BHX down 10% to 34925 in July whilst all other airport well up, very strange

Haven't seen other airport EK figures but if true another sign that BHX is being squeezed between LHR and MAN that have both seen and continue to see such big capacity increases for EK and other Mid East carriers. TK going to 10 weekly can't be helping either.

As said before cargo does very well at BHX for EK so perhaps this keeps the route profitable - some time ago am sure someone on here quoted with authority (or as much authority as a rumour network allows!) that EK BHX is one of their most profitable UK routes?

[groundhogbhx]

It was in the top 4 most profitable in the entire network.

[Ringwayman]

I think most people would be interested to see the top 10 profitable routes for EK as I am struggling to see how BHX can be that high!?

MAN was quoted as more profitable than LGW when they said A380 ops were to start at MAN. No reference made to BHX but somehow I don't think they'd be ignoring this "gold mine" by not giving this route a 1st Class cabin and/or granting it a 3rd daily frequency?

Are we really to believe the UK fills the top 4 most profitable routes for them?

[Skipness One Echo]

It was in the top 4 most profitable in the entire network.
He said "was". I suspect it's being badly squeezed as capacity is funneled to LHR/MAN.

[hammerb32]

Would point out that business class from BHX is full on most flights now.

[ATNotts]

It was in the top 4 most profitable in the entire network

If DXB-BHX is still in the top 4 profitable routes for EK, then I suspect that the hidden gem may well be the cargo. Depends I suppose whether the EK bean counters merge the figures, or treat them as separate proft centres - then, perhaps BHX is 4th most profitable for cargo?

One thing is certain, there are "lies, darned lies, and statistics"!

[Skipness One Echo]

One thing is certain, there are "lies, darned lies, and statistics"!
Speaking as someone who you'd no doubt describe as a "bean counter", can I just disagree with this (again). Statistics can be manipulated but will only fool the ignorant. Any educated individual working on matters like this knows how to see past the silliness. There are times when structural matters within an organisation create grey areas along the lines of revenue attribution and profitability, however most people dealing with these are wise enough to know when smoke and mirrors are being used for wilful distortion.

For the record, no one actually counts beans, in the same way Doctors no longer saw bones.
Would point out that business class from BHX is full on most flights now.
We cannot be seeing such a dive in volume with profitability being maintained, due to the recession, full fare business class yields are still weak so they're not likely to be over-pulling their weight in this case. Some bubbles burst remember, I used to fly STN-PIK on Ryanair when they were ten a day. We all thought that would last forever too! BHX just seems to be unloved at the minute, with GLA hearing whispers of getting the A380 and MAN going double daily on the big bus. There's only so much segmentation the UK market can take.

[VickersVicount]

Doctors do still saw bones as far as im aware, albeit with electric saws but that is very much OT and not a particularly helpful analogy

[ATNotts]

There are times when structural matters within an organisation create grey areas along the lines of revenue attribution and profitability, however most people dealing with these are wise enough to know when smoke and mirrors are being used for wilful distortion.

Skipness

I would absolutely agree, and that was really my point. All organisations, whether commercial or political produce statistics, or manipulate figure in the public domain to suit their own case. For this reason, I find programmes such as "More or Less" (BBC R4) particularly enlightening.

I wouldn't say that BHX is "unloved", the initial success of the new (revived) AI operation, growth of TK, imminent arrival of Air Blue to the market suggest otherwise, but we have to face reality - the West Midlands economy ain't great at the moment, and the lure of a ride on the A380 must be taking passengers away from BHX towards MAN, though why anyone would want to use LHR as an alternative to BHX is beyond me (actually why anyone would want to use LHR at all, unless their origin / destination is close to it amazes me more).

[nigel osborne]

Skipness one echo,

You cannot make such assumptions without being inside Emirates who are the only people that have the figures on yield !

So a 10% drop in total passengers , doesn't mean its making less money,if you have the business section full of business men paying full fares up front.

Nigel

[Guest 112233]

With respect a 10 % drop in pax, month on month if its true, on a mature route, indicates a serious problem. If it persists. (very roughly 3,500 a month or a approx 111 per day over 4 services 2 in 2 out ) means that there's a potentially big drop in demand - How do the stats hold up for the same month last year.

I do not work in the industry, but even allowing for Rmadan ocuring in July, a sudden drop in demand; out of the blue, equals trouble.

I know unused airline seats are worthless.

CAT III

[Skipness One Echo]

Nigel you're right however there's little to support the necessary uplift in business fares given the increased competitive environment. I meant unloved by Emirates, perhaps not intentionally but focus is seemingly elsewhere? We shall see.

Of course Doctors saw bones, I'm being blonde again. Apologies.

[nigel osborne]

CAT111NDB.

Your not following the BHX EK passenger figures I assume then as the previous 2 months both saw fairly good increases on 2012 May and June.

If the July drop continues( I have yet to see the July 2013 figures, but assume reports are correct) in each of the next 4 months then I will agree with you.

Nigel

[BHX5DME]

Nigel

The CAA figures publish Friday were incorrect as far as BHX is concerned and they were quickly withdrawn and still have not been re-instated.

Hopefully the correct numbers will be uploaded in the next few days.

Lets hope that EK figure was wrong.

BHX5DMW (IF)

[nigel osborne]

CAT111NDB.

Your not following the BHX EK passenger figures I assume then as the previous 2 months both saw fairly good increases on 2012 May and June.

If the July drop continues( I have yet to see the July 2013 figures, but assume reports are correct) in each of the next 4 months then I will agree with you.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

BHX5DME.

Thanks .all very puzzling never understand why BHX figures are so late each month.

Nigel

[GayFriendly]

EK - 12 flights a day to DXB from 3 UK airports within 200 miles of each other (8 of which are on the A380) that's a lot of seats to fill and keep yield up. Something will eventually have to give: right now (if those figures are correct) it's the little airport in the middle.

Am sure EK will stay at BHX but such decreases are not sustainable in the long term on such a mature route that has seen more decreases than increases in the last 12 months. A cause for concern.

[crewmeal]

I totally believe that EK are committed to BHX regardless of how many flights they operate a day or whatever aircraft they operate. There has been a lot of talk about figures and in my view regardless of who produces them only EK will decide how BHX is managed. I also hear that EK possibly helped fund the extension of the runway in order to eventually I repeat eventually have a full 380 operation. I also believe that EK would like a full 380 operation throughout the UK.

[LAX_LHR]

EK - 12 flights a day to DXB from 3 UK airports within 200 miles of each
other (8 of which are on the A380)


Only 6 A380 at the moment, 7 for a temporary period (5 at LHR 1/2 at MAN).

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal,

Not sure about EK funding the runway extension for A380s. It can operate off the current runway direct as the one did that came

Thre passenger load was held at a 77W in case the A380 was cancelled or went tech.Its only for flights more than 7 hours that will need the extension.

Can't believe the number of posts Im seeing about poor figures at BHX leading to EK demise here. The last two sets of figures both showed increases and the official July figures are not yet released.

So lets wait and see what happens the next few months before BHX is written off.

Nigel

[All names taken]

Absolutely right Nigel.
This is turning into the home of pessimism
No expansion is not the same thing as a crisis or a prelude to a withdrawal.

Good grief guys get a grip.
Emirates offer a very good service to BHX, glass half full and all that :ok:

[Alvechurch]

Phew, that's a relief!

Revised CAA July stats show: BHX - Dubai 38,663 +8%

[getonittt]

Crewmeal

I also hear that EK possibly helped fund the extension of the runway

Yes , by paying their landing fees like everyone else .

Nigel

Can't believe the number of posts Im seeing about poor figures at BHX leading to EK demise here

Most of them yours..

EK had a good month , up 8%

Now , please...Everyone calm down ....

[GayFriendly]

Phew, that's a relief! Revised CAA July stats show: BHX - Dubai
38,663 +8%

Now that's better - third month of increases, good stuff. Naughty CAA for releasing duff figures in the first place!

Was picking a friend up from BHX last Thurs eve, AI check in looked very busy indeed, good to see (although not sure how many of those I saw were indeed actually travelling)

[philw492]

This may mean nothing, but, I've just noticed that the Aston Villa media channel AVTV have signed contracts with three airlines to provide a quarterly program about the club on their in-flight entertainment.

The airlines are Jet Airways, Malaysian Airlines and ANA. We've already seen companies such as Genting specifically use sponsorship at Aston Villa, to increase their profile in the midlands for their new casino near the airport. Can anyone else see this as potential links to increase the airlines' profiles in Birmingham for after the runway extension's completion or just coincidence?

[bhx bod]

philw492
Although I like your optimism I think it is just a case of Aston Villa getting in on the sponsorship act.There are many football clubs with various deals with airlines as i'm sure most on this forum will be aware of.In fact some airlines have multiple deals up and down the country.Flybe had a deal with Birmingham CIty and Southampton running at the same time.The airline being a major player at the respective city airports.So I can see your point.
I also believe that Jet are to start flying MAN-DEL quite soon in a joint deal with Etihad,who are a major sponsor of Man City.
Being a bit of a cynic I think Villa may actually be doing a disservice to BHX by advertising a service from its main rival.
Now Malaysian is a different thing altogether.Wouldn't that be a coup???:)
On the other popular topic re EK loads there does seem to be some confusion about the accurate figures.I was told that July had been a good month all round as far as pax numbers went by someone I work with,so to see the negative postings surprised me a bit.We'll have to wait for good old OP to put us out of our misery on this but i think it is great news for all concerned.Onwards and upwards as they say.

[philw492]

bhx bod

I admit a bit of optimism but do understand that football clubs are primarily run to make money not advertise, just thought it was an interesting choice of airlines seeing as ANA have been touted for a potential new long haul airline after the extension. Jet have also been rumoured on and off for years since AI left, obviously now that might not be a very high possibility as AI are back. As for Malaysian that could just be down to Villa's increasing fan base in the Far East.

Just wondered if it was just good timing with the runway due to be completed next year and that Villa have never really pushed for any airline deals at all.

:)

[bhx bod]

philw492.
I do understand what you are saying and to a point I agree.Perhaps I shouldn't admit this here but as a Villa fan I have seen a number of airlines advertised at
Villa Park over the years.I've often wondered,"what if",then the opposition score
and i'm brought back to reality.
Incidently by suggesting we could get a service to Japan will have them howling in derision up north.How dare anyone get something before them.
Having an American owner I am surprised Villa haven't tried to go down that route.As I understand it Villas' profile in the USA has increased quite a bit and with us needing certainly the ORD service back I thought that might have been an opportunity.
An interesting subject.What do others think?

[philw492]

I know the feeling at villa park, but I've only ever really noticed Thomas Cook advertised, at the televised matches I understand that some of Sky Sports' connections and also the other teams sponsors get advertised.

Interestingly the article on the Villa website ends with this - "But we continue to try and grow the brand further. In fact, we are planning to significantly add to our current airline number over the coming weeks and months ahead."

Maybe the American links could be included in future deals that are said to be significant. I do personally think it may be more than a coincidence that as the airport nears a state of being able to accept long(er) haul flights Villa, one of twenty teams in possibly one of the best positions of advertising in the world by being a Premier League football team is suddenly having deals with airlines. And bearing in mind that with these airlines on board, part of Birmingham is going to be on the screens of flights across, Japan, India and Malaysia with this move.

The only airline I can think of having dedicated teams channels/programs are Emirates with Arsenal, PSG, Real Madrid and Hamburg. I've flown with various airlines now across Europe, Australia and India and never seen anything else like that.

Plus I've just done some digging and Randy Lerner does have history at Cleveland Browns NFL franchise with United Airlines being a sponsor, this I admit is really just a pointer I'm not suggesting at any point that suddenly United are going to massively increase interest in BHX, just because of some previous links with the owner of AVFC. (Just thought I'd get that in before a full on cynic shoots me down ;) ) Although United do have ties with a lot of organisations and teams in Chicago; such as the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, MLB Chicago Cubs, NBA Chicago Bulls, Chicago White Sox, NFL Chicago Bears and the NHL Chicago Blackhawks.

[bhx bod]

THY also has fingers in many pies.The brand has really grown over the last few years and pax numbers have gone through the roof.
With Villa seemingly on the way up(my turn for wishful thinking)a partnership between AVFC and BHX could have many benefits for both.
It could be the difference between 2 well known brands and becoming global brands:ok:

[philw492]

Glad it's not just me that's optimistic about all this! :P Villa looking good, BHX getting AI and links to others, so far so good! Now all I need to do is find a job in either engineering or operations at an airline or airport and graduate from uni in July and all is good!

[BHX5DME]

Actually 41,909 up 8%

razor blades away Nigel !

[bhx bod]

philw492
Good luck with that.Keep your eye on BHX vacancies over the next few weeks.
A number of opportunities may be appearing soon.:)

[nigel osborne]

BHXDME.

Think it was Chaps 2011 who brought the 10% lower figure up,from duff CAA initial figures and me that stated it had actually gone up the last 2 months up to July,

So your comments better aimed at others re the razor blades ?? :=

Three months in a row increased figures, well done BHX and EK :D :ok:

Nigel

[ATNotts]

GayFriendly

AI check in looked very busy indeed, good to see (although not sure how many of those I saw were indeed actually travelling)

In the good old days of the 707s routing SVO-ATQ-DEL-BOM (or something like that) I think the ratio was about 15 : 1 :D

[chinapattern]

Jet Airways, Malaysian Airlines and ANA

Coincidence that all three codeshare into BHX, or am I reading to much in to it?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Coincidence that all three codeshare into BHX, or am I reading to much in to it?

Garuda is the Official Global Airline of Liverpool F.C., though I doubt we are about to see thrice weekly B777-300ER service between the 'Pool and Jakarta. :cool:

[Guest 112233]

Apologies for the late reply: I was away - I do not follow the EK figs that closely (an SLF) Re posts 904 and the earlier reply. But for personal reasons I do foll0w the progress at BHX:

I'm glad that the actual revised figures are infinitely better yjan those originally posted

From memory there were other gaps in the original stats too.

Berlin comes to memory.

You do have to wonder how the provisional stats were prepared/

And thanks for the valid point about the previous iwo months.


CAT III

Edit: Re the eight airports some 200 miles apart. Some other long haul airlines must be hurting if EK are growing like this ?

[chinapattern]

Garuda is the Official Global Airline of Liverpool F.C., though I doubt we are about to see thrice weekly B777-300ER service between the 'Pool and Jakarta.

Well, maybe not Jakarta but I hear that Bali is the latest up and coming holiday hotspot for those on Merseyside! :)

[chaps2011]

Nigel and all I did put a comment at end saying very strange!

Chaps

[chaps2011]

I think most football clubs are glas to get any sponshorship/advertising as are the airlines if it brings their name to the fore but doesn`t mean they will automatically start from your local airport.

Glad that EK thing sorted as something certainly seemed wrong and to be honest we need to wait until the finalised figures are out next month.

Chaps

[nigel osborne]

Hi Chapps 2011

Very strange CAA bungling the initial figures, unless the BHX teams abacus failed, glad the revised ones were a lot better.

No problems CAT111, hope they can maintain these increases.

Nigel

[Guest 112233]

On the subject of football sponsorship; Let us not forget that scion of football achievement (A bit like CATIII) at the top end of Watery Lane.

Perhaps Ryan Air or Jet2 or ? Thomson could light a few candles to expunge the Gypsie's curse and spur the Lo-Co's

Its the right side of town: to capture cost concious travellers.

A former Blue Nose

CAT III

[insuindi]

Had a PRG-DUS-BHX connection recently - amazed just how many faces from the PRG-DUS flight re-appeared on the DUS-BHX segment. given this is just one of the possible routings to get from PRG to BHX it seems really odd that previous attempts for direct BHX-PRG never stuck around for long.

[Monty Gordo]

Insuindi's point is interesting. I travel regularly to Rio de Janeiro and then transfer to flights into central Brazil. Recently taking the early KLM flight to Amsterdam to transfer onto the Rio flight I asked, merely out of interest, was anyone else travelling to Rio. I was quite surprised when she said there were six other passengers booked through. So seven from Brum bound for Rio on one flight...

However, taking into account the quality of in-flight service, my preferred airline to Rio is TAP via Lisbon which, in itself means LHR. Unfortunely as and until they service BHX i'm afraid it is going to be KLM. TAP could be missing a trick here, particularly with the developing economy and trading opportunities within South America for Midlands based companies.

[MARK9263]

However, taking into account the quality of in-flight service, my preferred airline to Rio is TAP via Lisbon which, in itself means LHR.

Why is that? You not heard there are ten flights a week to Lisbon from Manchester???

[Monty Gordo]

MARK9263: I avoided mentioning Manchester because from where I live, not in Brum, it is far easier to get to LHR - direct by bus! Check my address and also check rail fares...

No slight on Man, just being practical and counting the cost.

[GayFriendly]

MARK9263 - from most points east and south east of B'ham, LHR is much quicker to get to than MAN (that includes Coventry and most of Warwickshire). From where I leave in Leamington by car it's only around 80 miles to LHR on a good day that takes an hour and 15 mins, MAN is 115 miles and takes nearly 2 hours, and that's using the M6 Toll. To be fair, it can be much quicker to get through MAN check in and security equalling it all out but the overall journey to LHR I think is much easier.

As we all know so well on this forum it is both a blessing and a curse for BHX to be located so centrally between LHR and MAN.......

I think TAP could make BHX-LIS work, they have a great range of South American connections and LIS is much more on the way than going via FRA, AMS or even CDG. Not sure who would do BHX-PRG, CSA don't even serve LHR anymore and I think the days of cheapie loco PRG weekends away are all but over? ZB at an outside chance but they don't seem to do that well on city routes from BHX.

[MARK9263]

Understood. But I was merely making the point that HEATHROW is not the be-all and end-all!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "However, taking into account the quality of in-flight service, my preferred airline to Rio is TAP via Lisbon which, in itself means LHR."

Once you get to LHR, it's also non-stop to GIG, is it much cheaper to go LHR-LIS-GIG, or is TP much better than BA or JJ?


Quote: "Understood. But I was merely making the point that HEATHROW is not the be-all and end-all!"

Not usually, but occasionally it is!

[Bagso]

HS2 and BHX

Quite surprised this has not been debated more on here, although may be there is the thought that it will simply not happen so does not warrant discussion.

Will it hinder BHX expansion OR assist it ?

Taking it further MAG support the Manchester leg believing that London airspace will be full and hordes of passengers will head North.

IF BHX is developed and its a big "if" surely those same pax will simply go from BHX ?

To me the thinking is totally flawed and instead of exporting passengers London having 1st mover advantage in terms of frequency will simply suck in pax from both airports.

[nigel osborne]

BAGSO,

Re HS2 pretty sure this topic was covered on Pprune some months ago.

The Birmingham Section wasn't going to open until at least 2027 so not sure it was a priority for spotters ! ;)

A Manchester extension will probably not be finished even if its fully confirmed for another 10 yrs or more after that so wouldn't worry too much.

Nigel

[Fairdealfrank]

Probably make very little difference in the great scheme of things.

BHX expansion depends more on sufficient destinations to provide connectivity and sufficient numbers of pax paying premium fares to make routes profitable for carriers.

The presence or not of the HS2 is irrelevant. There aren't many that can take advantage of the estimated 50 minute journey time: relatively few in the centre of London.

For everyone else in the south, add on hours and the aggravation of having several transfers on public transport to/from the HS2 terminal.

The "London airspace will be full and hordes of passengers will head North" argument is correct up to a point. Heading north east to Schiphol rather than north west to Ringway and/or Elmdon is probably more accurate.

It's probably academic anyway. Have to choose my words carefully after the chocolate hat-eating episode re. Air-India! Hmmmm, it tasted good

[getonittt]

HS2 and BHX

Quite surprised this has not been debated more on here

The Victorian mode of transport is not of particular interest on an aviation forum but nevertheless it has of course been mentioned a few times and to echo what frank has said it won't really make a jot of difference to BHX. The sheer timescale is the factor, Gatwick , Stansted , LCY and Heathrow , Yes Heathrow , will have expanded before the line even reaches the Midlands.
Besides , it's not as though a rail link is not there... it is , and if you want to get somewhere quicker take an earlier train!

[ATNotts]

The sheer timescale is the factor,

And is key reason why nothing fundamental infrastructure wise gets done in a timely / adequate manner, which is exactly why we have a second rate rail system, road infrastructure and indeed airport infrastructure.

Too many NIMBYs, and accountants who want to put a monetary value on projects that have no direct, immediate, financial return.

[OltonPete]

Monthly passenger figures: CAA (July 2012 in brackets)
Average pax per flight: SBS log
Load Factor: estimated based on various seatmap and airline sites

Although in general some great figures there is room for improvement with some French routes such as Bordeaux, Toulouse and even Nice.

Major increase for Stuttgart, which is good to see and in general the flybe routes seem to do well load wise but again whether this was at the expense of yields I don't know.

Much work to do for BMI Regional but some green shoots on Toulouse and Gothenburg but Billund is very low and I wonder how long they will give it?.

Also as ever the Ryanair Eastern European routes are as interesting as ever.

Stockholm never actually operated in July but is back now at 6 a week.

BRUSSELS........7485 (7292)........ 42 pax......52%

Dubrovnik............2888 (3231).......144 pax....81%

Split.......................3475 (nil)......134 pax....78%

LARNACA............8380 (8160)..... 190 pax...96%

PAPHOS...............4665 (4887).....179 pax...89%

Billund....................703 (nil)........ 17 pax.....34%...

Copenhagen.........4134 (4347)..... 69 pax.....72%

Avignon.............. 492 (838).........62pax.... 79%

Bergerac.............. 1122 (1089)......56 pax....68%

Bordeaux..............2557 (nil)........98 pax... 57%

Brest....................998 (973)........62 pax.....80%

La Rochelle..........696 (805)..........58 pax...69%

Lyon....................4216 (o)......... 54 pax.....71%

MONTPELIER ......2553 (2665)....141 pax....75%

NICE.....................7044 (9084)....114 pax....63%

PARIS (CDG).......34620 (34294)....99 pax....84%

Perpignan.............3485 (728)......134 pax...71%

Toulouse...............1107 (nil)........24 pax....49%

BERLIN (TEGEL).....5514 (6617).....89 pax...69%

DUSSELDORF........16597 (14840)..56 pax....64%

FRANKFURT ...... 26944 (26081)...110 pax....73%

Hamburg.......... 3403 (4324)....... 63 pax....71%

HANOVER....... 4164 (5681).........67 pax.....82%

Munich............. 15609 (15936)..... . 92 pax..75%

STUTTGART...... 4631 (3022)........ 54 pax.....68%

GIBRALTAR........3862 (nil)........... 149 pax... 85%

Heraklion............3023 (3086)..... 168 pax.... 86%

BUDAPEST...............0(2891)...........nil pax....nil

Cork....................6115(6762) ........58 pax.... 80%

DUBLIN........... 50573 (45351)......95 pax....66%
...
KNOCK...............2704 (3243).......44 pax.....69%

SHANNON...........2966 (2714)......48 pax.....75%

WATERFORD......2060 (1336)........57 pax....73%

BERGAMO...........4265 (nil) ........164 pax...87%

MILANÂ MXP).... 5118 (8071).....83 pax.. .72% - ZB & BE in 2012

ROME Â (FCO).....10142 (11757) .164 pax..91%

TRIESTE ............2335 (2405) .......146 pax...77%

VENICE............ 4724 (5006)..... 139 pax..80%

KAUNAS.......... .3233 (3098)..... 180 pax....95%

MALTA...............3114 (3088).. 173 pax...92% -

AMSTERDAM....40116 (33891)...... 85 pax....77%

ISLAMABAD..... 7522 (7966) ......223 pax...66%

BYDGOSZCZ.......4726 (4562).......182 pax...96%

GDANSK..........3212 (3135).... ...178 pax....94%

KATOWICE........3812 (4193)........173 pax..91%

KRAKOW,..........2814(nil) .........176 pax. .93%

RZESZOW.........3271 (3181).....182 pax....96%

FARO..............19660 (22736)....172 pax...86%

FUNCHAL.........2625 ((nil) ........146 pax...84%

BRATISLAVA.... 4593 (4540)......177 pax...93%

ALICANTE.......26991(32511)....169 pax..88% - EMA 32K

ALMERIA..........3531 (3666)......196 pax....92%

BARCELONA..... 18022 (6186)......155 pax..83%

GIRONA.......... ...2448(5961).......136 pax...72%

IBIZA................12937 (13683).....164 pax...85%

MAHON............. 6799 (6911).......189 pax...92%

MALAGA............30455 (37198) ...169 pax...87%

MURCIA Â ...... ,.5868 (10433)......163 pax...86%

PALMA...............24518 (28948).....166 pax....87%

REUS.....................3548 (4105)....136 pax....72%

ARRECIFE............11359 (11415)..183 pax...93%

FUERTEVENTURA..6765 (6540).....188 pax...93%

LASPALMAS..........7874 (8349).....179 pax..91%

TENERIFEÂ (TFS)...16149 (16096) ..176pax..92%

GOTEBORG...........1175 (nil)...... ..24 pax....50%

Stockholm........... nil (nil)............0 pax.... 0%

ZURICH............... 9497 (13574)......76 pax...78%

Bodrum............ ..4212 (4161).........150pax....86%

DALAMAN.........9687 (10969)........ .156 pax.82%

ISTANBUL........10422 (8365)..........118 pax..76% less than June - Ramadan?

Ashkhabad........3058(4666)...........115 pax...63%

DUBAI............. 41909 (38663).......338 pax.....82%

Toronto.............2569 (2675)..........257 pax...93%

NEW YORK (EWR)..9449(8955).........152 pax..90%..

Pete

[Monty Gordo]

OP: An interesting set of figures and my thanks to you for being able to put these up for our perusal.

They are interesting as you say but apart from the French routes which you identify as needing some improvement and the vagaries of the Eastern European routes one thing does stand out as far as I am concerned and that is the steady growth in all of the 'hub' airports: Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Istanbul, Dubai, Dublin and New York. All showing positive gains over 12 months ago.

We therefore come back to the wish list of Madrid and Lisbon, both of which offer extensive onward travel opportunities to South America and Africa in particular. Let us hope this void can be filled before too long. Like the other aiports mentioned, I am sure PAX would grow as those who use BHX and who choose to build their business and leisure travel plans from their local airport.

[OltonPete]

Sources:

pax: CAA

Number of rotations: local SBS log spreadsheet

Load Factor: estimates based on airline sites

Aberdeen.............9171 (7863)...........49 pax.......58%
Belfast City........24820 (25759)........71 pax........66%
Belfast Int..........13714 (nil).............118 pax......76%
Londonderry......5472 (5358)..........124 pax.......66%
Edinburgh..........25387 (25529).......73 pax.........70%
Glasgow.............16377 (18164).......54 pax.........54%
Inverness............3835 (3345)..........62 pax.........72%
Isle of Man.........3704 (4059)..........37 pax.........46%
Guernsey............3605 (2513)
Jersey .................4634 (5281).........52 pax..........63% (combined GCI/JER)
Newcastle...........644 (446)..............8 pax...........29%

So flybe in theory lost 939 pax with easyjet's first July offering making nearly 14000, which is a pretty good result and the Belfast market overall shot up although fares were very soft at times.

Monty Gordo

Yes these are a pretty impressive set of figures even if you ignore the fact EMA, LBA and BRS all carried more pax on Malaga and there are similar tales on Palma, Faro and Alicante, which considering the overall pax throughput of these airport compared to BHX it is a little surprising.

I wasn't too hopeful of any new hub routes but you have to say the way TAP are going at Manchester there must be a chance that they will look seriously at BHX sometime in the future.

I had hoped of Helsinki by flybe on behalf Finnair as a possibility but there doesn't seem anything doing on that score and realistically Lisbon is probably the more likely.

It will be interesting to see if Monarch make any further alterations for summer 14 as there are plenty of rumours around and they have acted on Nice already with it dropping to five weekly next year.

Pete

[chinapattern]

NEW YORK (EWR)..9449(8955).........152 pax..90%..

I wonder if UA would/could go back to x2 during the summer months?

[OltonPete]

chinapattern

In their previous life as "Continental" someone posted figures ($ not pax) on another forum when it was double daily and they were shocking.

BHX was in the top ten loss making routes but whether this information was true I have my doubts and I bet the CEO would not have been pleased with individual route figures in terms of $'s posted on an open forum.

This did include the period when it was ten weekly in the winter for a short period and this is where the damage was probably done.

Pete

[chinapattern]

Out of interest did CO ever fly the DC10 double daily, or was it the 757?

I mention this because the loads are always good and as UA are already well established at BHX I'd have thought they'd stand a better chance of matching the loads with the yield, which was something US sadly couldn't achieve.

[nigel osborne]

Chinapattern,

No I think the CO DC-10s stopped before the service went double 757 but I may be wrong.?

Nigel

[bhx bod]

Nigel I think you are right.The double daily flights were 757s almost exclusively.
It would be nice to think that UAL are thinking about a 2nd flight although a 2nd destination ie ORD is what we really want.However if the EWR figures continue in a similar vein then maybe it could become realistic,perhaps taking a leaf out of THYs book and operating a 2nd flight on the most popular days only.

[groundhogbhx]

DC10's only operated in the summer season and carrying full pax load (232) and 33 tonnes of freight were lucky to break even. Double daily 757's lost so much money due to the doubling of costs for a relatively small increase in overall pax numbers, also the second flight was the last departure from EWR at night and CO had to make sure an aircraft was available to cover if the scheduled one was late as there were no extensions on the curfew.

[Skipness One Echo]

DC10's only operated in the summer season and carrying full pax load (232) and 33 tonnes of freight were lucky to break even.
Lack of premium pax or lack of cargo?

[groundhogbhx]

Neither, the aircraft was completely full most days!

[nigel osborne]

BHX BOD

Not sure they are thinking of double daily at the moment year round. They have just announced the service goes down to 5 a week in Feb, it was six last year.

Having said that BHX is currently at similar levels to MAN, we flew 9449 passengers there in July 13 up nearly 6% .

Manchester flew 9351 and 9844. Former down nearly 7% the latter up 3%. Not sure which one is EWR and which JFK as CAA figures doesn't say.

However with a 90% load factor last month we must be getting close to a possibility of a 2nd New York in the summer, would AA look at doing a JFK I wonder ,although BHX doesn't currently do One World ?

Nigel

[bhx bod]

Nigel.

Not suggesting they are thinking of year round 2x daily.Just summer on the busiest days to mirror what THY are doing.Incidently are THY operating 10 per week thru the winter?However pax numbers need to be consistent to EWR for any consideration for increases in frequency and all on this forum know how wildly pax numbers fluctuate on most services from BHX.

[nigel osborne]

BHX-BOD.

Re TK, just checked a date mid Oct and there are 2 flts showing on the same day, so assuming its still 10 a week this winter ?

Nigel

[GayFriendly]

Yes 10 weekly through the winter, double IST flights are Mon, Thurs and Sun. I would not be at all surprised if this route went double daily in the near future.

How are AI flights doing with pax numbers? Early days I know but would be interesting to hear a general indication of loads from anyone in the know.

[Skipness One Echo]

Neither, the aircraft was completely full most days!
I'm trying to understand what the issue was, if they can't break even with a full load of pax and good cargo. Were they selling at a loss?

[hammerb32]

Those DC10's did burn fuel, daily competition from American at the time?

[nigel osborne]

Gayfriendly,

We may have to wait for the August figures to get an idea of AI numbers. Certainly was told the first 4 flights were full.

Nigel

[mart901]

SNN-BHX has been re-timed again for winter, showing minimal turnaround at BHX.

[OltonPete]

Turkish - definitely 10 a week in winter at present.

Aer Lingus Regional - Wow some massive climbdown with Dublin virtually disappeared with a just two flights in the week and a few at the weekend.

It appears Knock has gone for winter but Cork remains at three on Monday and Friday.

I assume the six a day in the week this summer was aimed at added connectivity to the US but at times you could actually fly cheaper direct on United?

Pete

[mart901]

I just wonder if EIR drop NOC over winter will BE appear? I couldn't see them passing up on that one somehow, given they will operate EDI-NOC over winter which has far lower loads than BHX. I noticed the DUB cutbacks also, hope some of that can be restored. NOC produced some high volumes for mytravellite and bmibaby, currently seems FR are benefitting at EMA.

[EI-A330-300]

EIR's service to DUB carried excellent numbers on many flights, they have taken from the Airbus ones though.

[bhx bod]

Some disappointing news from yesterday that I haven't seen reported on here yet is that BMR are dropping Lyon at the end of the summer.
It's good news for Flybe though who still offer 6 flights a week compared to BMRs' 3.Not sure if it this schedule will carry on throughout the winter though.
It will be interesting to see if BMR try a different route with the spare capacity or even if they are looking at changing/dropping other routes from BHX.Let's face it the numbers haven't been that good although I think there has been some improvement recently on 1 or 2 of the services.Let's hope that improvement continues.:)

[nigel osborne]

BHX-BOD.

Re BMIR the Billund figures are poor so this might go too unless they pick up.

Unless they are able to secure fuel efficient planes not sure how long BMIR can survive. Most Western Countries are shedding the 145s as its not economically viable to fly 48 seater classic jets at current fuel prices.

Nigel

[crewmeal]

Those RJs in my view contributed to the downfall of Maersk and Duo. They were hated by both crews and passengers, especially in Business Class.

[Burpbot]

Not the same RJ's! :ugh: Modern EFIS jets that burn less fuel than a q400, although 49 seats vs 78! and preferred by pax to props!

BMIR's biggest problem is they are not very well known as even existing by the traveling public. I wish them luck, I hope they do well.

[getonittt]

I think that this was always coming , The only airline that FLYbe can actually bully off a route , now that they have succceded i hope they don't go back to reducing and/or mish mashing schedules which they are quite fond of.
As for BMIR , well they need to find a route with no competition and not necessarily lots of pax but certainly a steady amount of business passengers....easier said than done.
Of the routes needed at BHX LIS/MAD/BUD & PRG are not suitable , so maybe a scandinavian route such as Oslo (yes i know Birmingham european tried that and failed but we are talking EMB145 and not one eleven) . Apart from that maybe their other base at Bremen or even better in my opinion would be go double daily TLS at decent times..

[chinapattern]

I'm wondering if a route like Basel/Mulhouse, Geneva, Stavanger, Antwerp, Vienna, Bremen or Cologne would be viable?

[bhx bod]

Crewmeal

Just a thought,as Maersk/Duo operated CRJ200/700 aircraft,were the operating economics similar to the BMR Embraer costs.Not only that the majority of the CRJs were brand new at the time of operation.Apart from the first few delivered to British Midland weren't some of the ERJs second hand.I stand to be corrected on this but surely that could also have a bearing on overall costs and maintenance.Not suggesting the aircraft are unreliable just that as aircraft get older they tend to spend more time in a hangar for whatever reason.
On the subject of right aircraft for the routes served what else could BMR use.
Dash 400Q,ATR76,or even Bombardier CSeries.Surely buying/leasing new aircraft would be more beneficial than second hand aircraft.More likely BMR just don't have the available funds to replace the ERJs and are therefore stuck with them which is a shame.I'm reliably informed that the company actually offer a pretty good service.Let's hope something good happens for them in the near future.:)

[Cloud1]

Getonittt - It's nothing to do its bullying tactics - that is a sad truth in children's playgrounds. Flights which are affordable and more convenient will be more popular than those that are expensive and usually that is what sees one airline succeed on a route and another pull off it.

BMI use costly aircraft which must hit the ticket prices. Why pay £300 for a flight which an hour later on another carrier costs £150? They are the same principles that have seen Flybe back away from routes such as IOM-BLK (albeit Loganair) and let the competitor have the monopoly.

Flybe always intended to operate LYS and had it on their schedules for a while its just they were too stupid to actually announce it and then BMI announced their intentions.

BMI are better suited to niche business routes which will see high yield. Routes that are not served from regions or do not offer a product suitable to high fare paying passengers. They will never be able to achieve low cost airline status

[ATNotts]

I'm really struggling to think of possible routes that BMIR could make a success of, other than the ones they've got (TLS, BLL and GOT all being good business routes that will be supported by companies with Midland connections).

Primarily leisure destination just won't work, destinations such as LIS and MAD will be best served by carriers that enable interlining to long haul destinations - and that means being a member of a major alliance.

Turin might work, as it's industrial base is similar to the West Midlands - in the same way that STR works for FlyBe. Vienna possibly, even my old stamping ground (Nürnberg) perhaps - but at a daily frequency - well I doubt it, not even LCY could sustain the NUE route. Oslo might be worth a punt, perhaps.

Really though, I do struggle to see a future for BMIR, without membership of an alliance, and with those 'orrible, expensive Embraers.

[crewmeal]

Just a thought,as Maersk/Duo operated CRJ200/700 aircraft,were the operating economics similar to the BMR Embraer costs.

Bhx bod I can't help with the economics of the 2 carriers but suffice to say that Maersk/Duo were charging Business class fares as well as economy fares. I plus others believed at the time that the RJ was the wrong type of aircraft for the route structure apart from BFS. The overall operating costs would have been far more in those days compared with today. Needless to say that with the demise of passengers up front would not help. Had there been an all 737 fleet like BAR plus the proper marketing that was owed to us then we would have been in a better position.

[insuindi]

OT @ATNotts: LCY-NUE is still flown 11/7

For bmir VIE would be an attractice option if it wasn't for the length of the sector. I can't see BRE or CGN being viable - both too close to HAM/HAJ/DUS // DUS/FRA respectively. Maybe Oslo would indeed be a worthwhile shot to try.

[OltonPete]

bhx bod

I posted BMIR Lyon had been taken off sale as early as 20 July and I have been surprised even by airlineroutes standards it took them so long to pick that up.

They still have a few possibilities such as VIE, GVA or Oslo although although those destinations have had ups and downs over the years. You would have also thought that they would have announced a new route for winter by now.

Cloud1 Choice words re BHX - LYS. I don't know who was to blame (BE or AF) for the delay but I would like to know why there wasn't a seemless takeover when Air France (Brit Air) pulled off the route. We knew well in advance that the Brit Air the 50 seat CRJ were leaving the fleet and you would have thought that as the two airlines code-share on CDG some kind of discussions must have gone on.

It was not as if the route was struggling for passengers with 65-75% load factors acheived most of the year by Brit Air and although I have little doubt that probably was not sufficient for them to operate profitably, flybe had just got the 175 to add to the and less than busy Q400's. At the time I really did not understand the delay and if there is no such thing as a nailed on route from BHX this one comes pretty close.

However all seems to be well now but if I was BMIR I would have been frustrated at the timing of flybe's announcement to say the least.

easyjet

Nothing extra from today's release, I was hoping for a third Belfast frequency on a Monday and even Sunday but almost given up on a year-round GVA and as I said on the BMIR thread maybe one for them.

Pete

[hec7or]

Had there been an all 737 fleet like BAR plus the proper marketing that was owed to us then we would have been in a better position.

except that BAR were by then flying A319s

[crewmeal]

Eventually they did, but thery were still using 737-200's as well.

[chinapattern]

Orlando International Airport (MCO) - New Air Service (http://www.orlandoairports.net/marketing/new_service.htm)

I'm guessing that this is the one-off Easter charter that appeared, disappeared, re-appeared a while back? Does seem a bit odd to list a one-off flight as a new service. Shame it's not running the entire summer.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

To avoid any further short term speculation, Qatar does not include BHX in their winter '13/'14 expansion announcement and plans.

Qatar Airways announces frequency increases | Qatar Airways | AMEinfo.com (http://www.ameinfo.com/qatar-airways-announces-frequency-increases-353371)

[nigel osborne]

Stoney Bridge Radar,

Nit picking but all these are in Eastern Europe and beyond as the article states , they could quite easily announce some Western Europe destinations soon.

So far Qatar have not announced any new Western Europe routes for 2013.

If the BHX EK figures keep increasing can see them having another look if EK don't go 3 a day.

The fact that they are joining One World who don't fly into BHX might be a negative impact though.

You never know with Qatar, they actually announced Helsinki at a joint press conference with the airport 2 yrs ago and they are still waiting.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

China Pattern,

Yes they are doing one off flights at other UK airports next summer think CWL NCL mentioned in their threads but could be others.

They are expanding out of MAN with Condor and Fly Be are to feed these flights.

Seems very odd to position a plane in with crew for a one off return flight. Either they have a plane sitting around doing nothing on these dates in April or they are testing demand out of BHX for possible expansion in 2015

Nigel

[groundhogbhx]

Or it is for a cruise starting in Orlando that has been sold from different areas each week?

[Monty Gordo]

Further evidence of Turkish Airlines' commitment to BHX and the Midlands came today with a partner deal struck with Premier club Aston Villa. They have previously featured one leading Euopean club in their fleet so will we now see the 'claret and blue' flying into Birmingham?

[canberra97]

groundhogbhx

You are aware that Orlando is NOT on the coast so NO cruises origionate from there, the nearest cruise port to Orlando is at Port Canaveral which is approx 45 miles away.

[canberra97]

Nigel Osborne

The new long haul flights from MAN are to be operated by Thomas Cook Airlines NOT Condor.

[McGoonagall]

with Premier club Aston Villa

That is a matter of opinion. :E

[chaps2011]

Canberra97 and Nigel

Yes the Long haul flights westbound are TCX metal with pax from Germany connecting in on Lufthansa whilst eastbound flights operate from FRA
on Condor metal with MAN pax transfering on Lufthansa to FRA, flights will operate with joint TCX/DE numbers. Condor will also base a B757 at MAN to operate to PMI.

Chaps

[rutankrd]

Thomas Cook UK and Condor as effectively moving to a single business group and are in a state of transition.

Manchester and Frankfurt long haul are to become quasi scheduled operations and share both flight codes.

The UK operation of services to Orlando Las Vegas and the Caribbean Isle that start in December will be supplemented by feed from Exeter,Norwich and Scottish cities via Flybe services and from Germany via LH interline connections.

The Eastern routes are sold from the UK with LH interline connections however it is certain that we can expect a Thailand flight originating from Manchester in winter 2015.

Manchester will shortly receive an additional A332 (ex BMI) specifically for the Caribbean routes - An aircraft that previously plied those very routes !

The winter schedule should increase and require three A332 with one as usual sent to Scandinavia along with the return of OY-VKF.

Summer 2014 will see four plus OY-VKF back.

Beyond summer 2014 further co-ordination may well see Condor transferring some B76W models to the UK market.

Regretfully none of this is BHX related.

[nigel osborne]

Rutankrd.

I find this really bizarr ?

Obviously they know what they are doing , but why fly German passengers to Manchester when surely its easier for them to just get on a long haul plane in Germany ?

Will they therefore route MAN passengers to Germany on LH for long hauls going east towards Thailand etc from Germany on Condor ?

Nigel

[chaps2011]

Nigel read my previous post

Chaps

[nigel osborne]

Sorry Chaps,

Yes you explain it well ,

still not sure how it beats passengers going direct.

If I was German non stop with Air Berlin to the States, and TOM direct from the UK to Thailand with better legroom and a faster plane (787) unless the TCX is much cheaper its crazy !

Nigel

[rutankrd]

Its no more or less extraordinary than any other Hub and Spoke operation by the legacies.

This is a quasi scheduled service operation.

As it stands today you are right that the leisure UK-Thailand market stalled in the recession. Thomson are returning to the market from Gatwick this winter and from winter 2015 further UK originating flights will operate almost certainly from Manchester.

Right now through you will have to contend with a multiple stop routing however you want to travel from the UK to Phuket or Lankawi.

This plan is not bazaar just TCX/CFG thinking out the box.

Would not be surprised if TUi follow suit. They already share aircraft around the group.

This might well be the way forward for long haul leisure to survive.

As for AB well again they are in transition away from the LCC basement, however they have yet to commit there undivided loyalties.
Are they really committed to Oneworld or moving ever closer to Skyteam and Etihad - thats a quandary

[nigel osborne]

Rutankrd.

TOM have set the standard with their 787 package, thats the mark other charter airlines are going to have to match.

Thats going to be the way forward, non stop , 34" pitch, seat back TVs, dimmable much bigger windows and faster than the any of TCX planes..:ok:

Which is why we are booked with them to Florida next year.Will be off the plane at Sandford and on our way to International Drive before the TCX machine approaches the coast ! :D

Nigel

[chinapattern]

BHX-HKT would certainly be a nice addition to the route map although not sure how likely it would be?

[GayFriendly]

No sign of any long haul charter expansion @ BHX despite runway extension next year (apart from that random one off TCX Orlando!)......TCX have publicly stated that MAN is to be their long haul UK hub thanks to the benefit of being able to attract extra pax from UK regions through BE connections.

I think TOM best chance for seeing new routes at BHX, I can't see HKT but perhaps a couple more Caribbean destinations? The Dom Rep is a big hole, TOM is launching Punta Cana from GLA next summer on the 787. Surely TOM must be evaluating the potential for new routes with the runway being extended at BHX?

[nigel osborne]

Chinapattern,

Slightly more likely when the runway extension opens as its possible to do it nonstop then.

However not sure it would be in the near term , unless an airline who can;t get slots at LHR moves a service to BHX which seems pretty unlikely.

Nigel

[Hotel Tango]

Then again Nigel, your B787 might well be AOG somewhere when TCX approaches the Florida coast :oh: ;)

[nigel osborne]

GAYFRIENDLY,

BHX would no doubt get a 787 based all week if they didn't split their long haul programme now in the Midlands, between EMA and BHX ,although its not a shared aircraft.

I would have said MON were the most likely as they seem to love BHX. However with no early sign of long haul expansion with new planes, doesn't seem likely for a while.

Perhaps Air Berlin will follow Condor at MAN and do some long haul flights from BHX :E

Nigel.

[nigel osborne]

Hotel Tango,

now that would be a bummer for us, and serve me right huh, lol :ooh:

Nigel