BIRMINGHAM - 6

[hammerb32]

Resorts World is the new casino, hotel and shopping mall at the NEC, if memory serves will be the biggest casino in the UK.

[xanda_man]

What the hell is resorts world?
Has the current runway shifted north, or the station south?
How much capacity do you lose with slightly off parallel runways?

As hammer has said, Resorts World is the new proposed casino complex at the NEC over the Pendigo Lake bit.

Current runway/station looks to be in the correct place, a quick look at google maps or similar shows it almost in parallel with rwy33 threshold. The new 'terminal development' is the HS2 station.

The new runway development is where the current landfill site is along side the A452 behind Melbicks garden centre! Interesting indeed, that would be one hell of a taxi and the picture suggests it would be along the north side of the A45. That would take some doing :)

[crewmeal]

Has Paul Kehoe and the BHX management team completely fallen off their collective trolley?

I bet they drink carling Black label.......What happened to that brilliant billboard ad that got everyone thinking about 'Birmingham's new city airport' back in the 90's?

[Bagso]

Where are the 5 major terminals located?

[jabird]

Current runway/station looks to be in the correct place, a quick look at google maps or similar shows it almost in parallel with rwy33 threshold.

Not really, the southern edge of the station is a train length to the north of the threshold. I know this is only a concept map, but this sort of thing is quite important when it comes to getting the diggers out.

The new 'terminal development' is the HS2 station.

So actually quite unprecedented. Historically, rail lines have been brought in to airports, but this must be the first airport configured around (as opposed to merely being built adjacent to) a railway line.

the picture suggests it would be along the north side of the A45. That would take some doing

Well you'd have to move fuel farms first, but fuel doesn't think, so doable. Then you'd have to shift some of those offices, again, doable at a cost.

I don't quite get how this substantial new leisure development is going to react to a huge taxiway going past its frontage, but for us aerosexuals, the view from that "VIP Sky Bar" would get quite interesting :D

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal,

They couldn't even afford to build the A45 bridge and had to drop the run on/off 150m starter strip planned at the end of the runway extension, to make the project affordable.

So who would pay for all this ?

BHX needs to secure a couple of long haul routes in the next 12 months and forget about all this 70 million passenger sillyness.

Nigel

[jabird]

So who would pay for all this ?

There's something in the small print about government sticking the cash in - I'm sure voters all over SE England will be keen on that, especially when LHR R3/T6 would be privately funded.

I suppose it would still be cheaper than Fantasy Boris Island, although no idea exactly where a 3rd / 4th runway would go! Back to the original plans for R2?

[xanda_man]

Not really, the southern edge of the station is a train length to the north of the threshold. I know this is only a concept map, but this sort of thing is quite important when it comes to getting the diggers out.

I really hope they do use this map when it's comes to starting this :)

So actually quite unprecedented. Historically, rail lines have been brought in to airports, but this must be the first airport configured around (as opposed to merely being built adjacent to) a railway line.

Gotta agree, if you get a chance (and I can't find the link at the moment) but take a look at the proposed layout of the roads and area surrounding the HS2 station, i.e Entrance to the B'Ham Business Park etc, the plans on there are to link the new station to the NEC/BHX are via a people mover or mono-rail or similar. So you've just paid the premium to use the new ultra fast HS2 to BHX (or nearby :)) then you have to wait for and transfer on on one of these..... worth it? I'm not sure. :bored:

That would take some doing
Well you'd have to move fuel farms first, but fuel doesn't think, so doable. Then you'd have to shift some of those offices, again, doable at a cost.
I don't quite get how this substantial new leisure development is going to react to a huge taxiway going past its frontage, but for us aerosexuals, the view from that "VIP Sky Bar" would get quite interesting.

Who needs fuel farms :) Hell why don't they just build a taxiway right over the terminal/NEC. Most direct route and probably more realistic.

All this for the much needed second runway....

[crewmeal]

BHX needs to secure a couple of long haul routes in the next 12 months and forget about all this 70 million passenger sillyness.

......and the 250,000 jobs they say it will create!

[ATNotts]

Nigel

BHX needs to secure a couple of long haul routes in the next 12 months and forget about all this 70 million passenger sillyness.

Agree with your sentiments about the 70 million sillyness - and would add the 250,000 extra jobs - it's all pure fantasy. and great fodder for local journalists to get their teeth into. I'm quite surprised that London journalists haven't been extracting the urine to be honest - but I suppose we should be grateful for that at least!

However, forget the long haul; proper new medium haul routes (not yet more duplication on bucket and spade and short break leisure destinations) is what BHX should be targeting.

[LAX_LHR]

However, forget the long haul; proper new medium haul routes


Short haul will also stimulate long haul.

BHX wants to attract long haul routes, yet, it needs to show it can handle the long haul traffic by proving demand through its other flights.

For example, if BHX can get more people to connect via other hubs, it will prove there is a market and attract the routes it desires. However, it seems that market needs to improve, when you look at the following routes:

-Lufthansa often use the A319/B737 for BHX-FRA, and even has had to cut the route to 3 daily in Jan/Feb when it could get an A321 on the route if demand for connections increases. Even EDI sees more A321 flights from LH!

-Lufthansa again use the E195 for BHX-MUC. Lots of connection potential so, if this was being exploited, an A319/A320 would be used.

-Swiss, who again offered good connections, have had to cut down to 2 daily and use the F100/Avro. If demand was being exploited, the 3rd daily would continue and the A319/A320 would be used.

-Air France, they use their A318 jets, occasionally subbing for larger equipment. If long haul connections were being exploited, there would be the A321.

The list could go on.

However, the point is, if BHX has 'the second largest long haul demand in the UK', then why are these carriers, who offer well timed connections via their hubs, struggling to justify the use of larger aircraft, and, improving the number of flights?
Whilst it is obviously important to keep an eye on long haul opportunities, BHX really needs to focus on improving short haul, not only chasing the routes to MAD/VIE/WAW etc, but, trying to get the carriers it has to increase, get the connections market on the up and prove that there is a market.

[nigel osborne]

Andrew,

What are you calling medium haul, more flights to Middle East thats about 6/7 hours and fits that category.

I think BHX are right to continue to target both short, medium, long haul at the same time..why would you just want to target just one category when you have just spent millions on a runway extension for long haul ?

They have been talking to numerous large European airlines I believe recently. It is likely any new service gets a free first year then a sliding scale upwards, any other major UK airport..

I don't understand what more you expect to BHX do . There was an Easy Jet contingent at BHX only a few months ago being shown round, and Im told Norwegian have also been at BHX.

BHX is and should continue to try and attract ALL airlines whether they are near or far.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Chinapattern; re your words;

Air India

"Not that any of us believed it would be a reality "


Well your going to have to do some serious hat eating if they announce a new service from BHX aren't you ! LOL. :ok:

Nigel

[BobBHX]

There has been recent comment regarding a third daily EK and first class ex BHX on EK. I take about 5 business class trips a year to Thailand. Usually I will fly from Amsterdam at about £1,500 on LX or OS. Add in the cost of a KL flight to get there and you're still saving £700 - £900 over what EK is asking for substandard business class seats out of BHX.

I have just got back from my latest trip which was on EY out of that airport in the north west we're not allowed to mention. The fare was just over £1,700 and that included a chauffeur drive car to and from my home in Birmingham.

My view is that EK are getting sufficient people prepared to pay the high fares they charge but that introducing a third flight would not generate sufficient extra yield to justify it. Given that they quite often use a 3 class aircraft on the BHX route, I don't understand why they don't officially market a first class product.

[ATNotts]

Nigel

I don't understand what more you expect to BHX do . There was an Easy Jet contingent at BHX only a few months ago being shown round, and Im told Norwegian have also been at BHX.

What I'm expecting them not to do is waste time with wildly overoptimistic grandeose plans that get column centimetres in the press and airtime on the broadcast media but do diddly squat to bring new business (and therefore revenue and hopefully profit for the shareholders).

If the long haul market is a hard nut to crack, putting more energy into the European and near east market may prove to be a better way forward to boost business. I really cannot see EasyJet bringing anything new to the table, just more competition for existing carriers - unless they chose to develop BHX more on the lines of their LGW and MAN operations. I really don't see there is enough leisure business to sustain daily services by the like of EZY to major European capitals. Those routes need legacy carriers offer interline arrangements for business travellers to boost yields and make services, such as MAD, VIE, HEL, viable.

Reading my, and various other postings, I sometimes think we're all a bit like soccer fans baying for the head of the manager of their favourite club because they've only won 2 of their last 4 home games. I'd really like to think that the airport management is more professional than football managers (businesswise that is) and would like to think that equally we (as "fans" of our local airport) are also less short termist and fickle!

[LNIDA]

Birmingham would fit Norwegian's growth plans, they generally avoid head to head with FR and FR are not a big player at BHX compared with EMA, but would have no concerns about going head to head with Monarch, who's costs are far higher, they would probably start with the Canary Isles route much as they have done in LGW along with ALC/AGP & Scandinavian routes before spreading their winglets into city break routes.

The traffic numbers have been very impressive from London Gatwick on the Med & LPA routes, but the prices are designed to build market share and product awareness.

[getonittt]

I would like to thank PK and his team for again making a laughing stock stock out of BHX and to feed the usual PPruner marksmen North and south with more fodder to sling back at us.
London & Man are fab , BHX is ordinary at best , BHX will not attract the big business that fills the front end of long haul aircraft , BHX will not be a hub for any scheduled airline (short/long haul) The people in the BHX catchment area will always travel to other airports to save a few quid. BHX is too expensive.

Yep , thats just about covered 4 pages of thread in a few sentences.

[Planeaddict]

"Not that any of us believed it would be a reality "

It's like Qatar/Air Algerie all over again - they clearly state their desire to open up BHX and we hear nothing official. Although, Emirates announced a second daily, scrapped it, then eventually got it up and running a year later. Anything can happen but like you, I'm not holding my breath.

I would like to thank PK and his team for again making a laughing stock stock out of BHX and to feed the usual PPruner marksmen North and south with more fodder to sling back at us.

Was this stated in an article or?

Off-topic a bit, some ideas of this viewing area - http://i42.tinypic.com/53ssxy.jpg or the preferable http://i39.tinypic.com/254y5i8.jpg. Just simple sketches to get an idea of the possiblity.

But, I'm not sure if a second runway really is needed. Many international airports have managed fine off one runway - they could just do with expanding the terminal when needed.

[ATNotts]

Planeaddict


I would like to thank PK and his team for again making a laughing stock stock out of BHX and to feed the usual PPruner marksmen North and south with more fodder to sling back at us.

Was this stated in an article or?

No, but surely you see that whole point is that the alleged plans are just "pie in the sky" and are so outrageous as to attract ridicule. The amazing, and thankful thing is that The Daily Mail hasn't picked them up and made a laughing stock of the airport.

As regards Air Algerie, did they ever "state their desire to open up BHX"? I think not.

[Monty Gordo]

Some of the recent offerings have been well thought out, others not so, and some I fear could be very close to what could be termed defamatory.

It would be wise to accept that PK and his management team do not and cannot treat BHX as their personal fiefdom but IMHO would be working to a strategy that has been approved and is supported by the board of directors and shareholders.

What success this will bring is difficult to quantify and it may be several months before we see evidence that diligence and hard work may have borne some fruit. We all hope it will.

To express the comment thanking 'PK and his team for again making a laughing stock stock out of BHX' couldbe termed injurious to his and their professional standing.

I quote you: 'Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, or traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual), business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business), product (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_(business)), group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_group), government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government), religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion), or nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation)'.

I am not involved with the running of BHX but after 45 years in the media I know only too well how easy it is to cross that line between fair and honest criticism and libel...

Those are my personal views.

[nigel osborne]

Plane Addict,

Re viewing areas, unfortunately like nearly all of UKs airports,albeit Manchester, there is little appetite at BHX or provide anything decent.

The reason is that there has to be a business case for it.The views from the aviation hobby area on the top floor used to be great but all the building work ruined most views. It was then hardly used apart from school holidays so got chopped.

The 2nd photo you provide can't happen anyway. The new airport service road has already been ploughed just behind the Tristar Hotel.When finished it all goes airside.

Nigel


We will have to wait and see what the views are like from close to the runway extension. However likely to be more distant views of the actual terminal and aprons Im afraid.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

AT NOTTS

Hi Andrew,

Think we are going around in circles. Im saying BHX are in contact with all the airlines you mention around Europe on a regular basis thats what the marketing team do as well as senior management.

The BHX team Im told are just back from doing exactly that around Europe AGAIN and also further afield. :D

Also any of theairlines in Europe that want to start a new service will get the first year free then a sliding scale of increases over following years Im told.

So please tell us what else they can do?


Think we will have to agree to disagree on this topic :confused:

Best wishes

Nigel

[getonittt]

Thank you for your personal views monty gordo , My point , obviously , was that it has triggered the usual posts re BHX that have been said over and over again and I sarcastically summed them up in a few sentence's, why , there is even a post on the Luton thread about BHX wanted to be the centre of the universe ! So , no need to go into the legal mumbo jumbo when all I was doing was reacting to 'other' peoples views of the plans thereof.

[GayFriendly]

It would be wise to accept that PK and his management team do not and cannot treat BHX as their personal fiefdom but IMHO would be working to a strategy that has been approved and is supported by the board of directors and shareholders

PK, his team, the Board, shareholders, whoever, it's quite clear that they all only have a thin grasp reality. BHX has done itself no favours by conjuring up this idea, although has got people talking which I guess is the idea

Also any of theairlines in Europe that want to start a new service will get the first year free then a sliding scale of increases over following years Im told

Problem is it would appear that the airlines don't want to start new services. Answers on a postcard.

BHX will not attract the big business that fills the front end of long haul aircraft

Hang on, hold that postcard. And not just for long haul or the front end - it's why MAN has LH A321's scheduled to FRA and 320's to MUC as opposed to BHX with A320's and E95's respectively, AR1 to ZRH as opposed to MAN with A320's

[JennyB]

"To express the comment thanking 'PK and his team for again making a laughing stock stock out of BHX' couldbe termed injurious to his and their professional standing.

I quote you: 'Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, or traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual), business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business), product (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_%28business%29), group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_group), government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government), religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion), or nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation)'.

I am not involved with the running of BHX but after 45 years in the media I know only too well how easy it is to cross that line between fair and honest criticism and libel...

Those are my personal views."

Christ Monty,

You should never go on the football supporters messageboards I go onto, you'd have a heart attack!

[splash&dash]

Air Transat are upsizing their flights this summer from an A310 to an A330 from 31Jul to 28Aug. A310s will operate either side of these dates. I guess they are reacting to the demand. Nice to see.

[jabird]

To express the comment thanking 'PK and his team for again making a laughing stock stock out of BHX' could be termed injurious to his and their professional standing.

As could proposing the ridiculous scheme in the first place.

I quote you: 'Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, or traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation'.


Err - emphasis on the false my friend.

Saying someone is making the airport the laughing stock is quite different from saying they are the laughing stock, but even the latter would be quite legitimate.

I suggest you look into the original history of "laughing stocks", and then see if any of the modern PC law could be applied over and above this to validate your claim. I would then suggest that it quite clearly could not, as business leaders are not (yet) a protected minority, and even if they were, the criticism is still being made of the lamentable proposal, not of the individual making it.

I am not involved with the running of BHX but after 45 years in the media I know only too well how easy it is to cross that line between fair and honest criticism and libel...

Well I suggest you stick to the media and leave the law to the lawyers. It is patently obvious to anyone who is even half awake that there is nothing libelous on this thread in respect of the completely daft 2nd runway plans.

Now if "destruction of reputation" was an offence in its own right, then I suggest a swift entry of the number 9 into your telephone key pay, repeated twice, to report it.

The address where the offence would be taking place is:

Birmingham Airport Limited
Birmingham
B26 3QJ

To assist the boys in blue with their enquiries, please remind them that ample parking space for their chopper is available.

[chinapattern]

Air India
"Not that any of us believed it would be a reality "
Well your going to have to do some serious hat eating if they announce a new service from BHX aren't you ! LOL.


Nigel

Ha, I didn't word my original post very well as I was actually trying to say that none of us really believed they'd be up and running by August. Will gladly eat my hat though if it does come off by 31/08/13 :ok:

[nigel osborne]

Splash and Dash,

Very gracious of Air Transat !

Their first summer brochure had all our flights till Oct as A330s, about right as the planes were 98% full last year in both economy and for what its worth their premium economy.


Then 8 weeks later they knocked it down to an A310. I phoned up Canadian Affair who said it wasn't their fault. TS provide them with an a/c type and they try and fill it. TS had decided to increase capacity further at MAN, so we were knocked down to an A310.

Was a pain in the backside for Canadian Affair as well, they said as some already booked on an A330 , had to be moved to MAN when the plane type was changed..yes sold that fast they said.

So whats happening now..the A310 is overbooked Im told and passengers are being coached to MAN.

To be fair to Air Transat their other 2 English airports MAN,LGW, both have TS crew bases and operate at least 3 destinations, YYZ, YVC and Calgary..with LGW offering more destinations.

Therefore BHX is a bolt on service with just 1 flt and no base,so we are lucky to have them.

Was hoping for a Vancouver or Calgary next year with the runway extension, but at present they are just offering YYZ on an A310 in 2014..

We plod on.:sad:

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

China Pattern,

You might have too ....and Id be so happy to see them Id do a cartwheel too.lol

Nigel

[kgoodall]

You have to wonder why Canadian Affair aren't a little more up to speed with what Air Transat are doing considering they are both owned by the same company!

I did travel from Toronto to BHX a couple of weeks ago on the A310 (i'm from Coventry but live in Ottawa now), they've cleaned them up quite a bit compared to last year. New seats, carpets, refurbished washrooms and even mood lighting. I certainly can't complain for the price I paid.

I was also impressed at how the airport managed everyone at immigration too, directing anyone eligible to the e-gates and taking families with young children to the front of the queue. All in all a pleasant experience.

[Planeaddict]

If TS are reacting to the demand by upgrading to an A333 (however long it is), couldn't they have added a second weekly flight? They've been stuck at one weekly for a few years now.

[CabinCrewe]

Quite a lot of YCC YVR are double drops from UK, so there is no reason, if demand was there, that BHX couldnt have a YVR etc via MAN or GLA in the same format and in that scenario nothing to do with runway length.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Chinapattern; re your words;

Air India

"Not that any of us believed it would be a reality "


Well your going to have to do some serious hat eating if they announce a new service from BHX aren't you ! LOL.

Nigel"


Quote: "Nigel

Ha, I didn't word my original post very well as I was actually trying to say that none of us really believed they'd be up and running by August. Will gladly eat my hat though if it does come off by 31/08/13"

Hope the hat tastes good and doesn't give indigestion: forget 31/08/13, AI are NOT coming back to BHX (unless on a code share).

[chinapattern]

Hope the hat tastes good and doesn't give indigestion: forget 31/08/13, AI are NOT coming back to BHX (unless on a code share).

Do you know something we don't? Have I got to break out the Gaviscon?:)

[splash&dash]

Nigel

Yes, you would think there's demand for a year round YYZ with Transat from BHX. Looking back over the years there's been Air India, BA, Canada 3000, Bcal and Wardair. I may have missed a few more. I hope if the demand persists or increases then we will get a regular service.

Air India.

Hmmmm... I sense a hat eating fest very soon... :}

[ATNotts]

splash&dash

you would think there's demand for a year round YYZ

The problem with Canada is it's principally a VFR destination, and the "R" (relatives) part of that acronym are dying off. This is why many airports that used to enjoy summer only services, the likes of LBA, EXT, STN have lost them, and BHX has lost hundreds of seats per week since the hey day of Wardair 747s and DC10s 3 x weekly.

If you're going to visit Canada for a holiday, the depths of winter aren't the ideal time - it's too perishing cold, and apart from for Christmas (and I can't see why a TS series over the festive season wouldn't work from BHX) you'd be hard pressed to find enough passengers to make a winter service pay.

I think we should be happy we've clung on to the once-weekly summer only YYZ operation. The extended runway however, could bring forward the possibility of weekly ITs to Calgary during the ski season - if of course the tour operators want to risk diluting demand for Manchester and Gatwick services to offer it.

[CabinCrewe]

EXT still has a YYZ route with TS last I looked

[chinapattern]

EXT and NCL were dropped the end of last season and I think the spare aircraft has been used for an extra MAN-YYZ rotation.

[CabinCrewe]

http://airtransat.canadianaffair.com

[OltonPete]

CabinCrewe

Is the link to show flights from Exeter?

There are flights bookable but they start on flybe to Manchester as does Newcastle but to Gatwick.

There is a reasonable Sikh population in the Toronto area and I believe there is a bit of VFR traffic from the Midlands but looking at the figures probably insufficient to support even once week. I understand Vancouver has a larger Sikh ex-pat population and in the past I know from work there was again VFR traffic all which no doubt be classed as low-yield.

SAS - More Blue 1 aircraft poping up on the ARN from October and CPH for April is showing double daily A319.

May pax - Airport seem to be waiting for the CAA to release their figures but most indicators suggest they will up and I thought as it was already mid-June they might have issued a press release first - I hope that is not a bad sign.

Pete

[CabinCrewe]

Yes looks like the EXT flights maybe FlyBe connections via MAN and GLA however you have to get to the booking stage and still no mention that that is the case....

[CabinCrewe]

Yes we have realised why they still remain as destinations on the TS website thanks

[Alvechurch]

Crikey, I knew BHX was struggling lately but the latest May passenger stats are showing just 106154 -86.6%
Now that's what you call a quiet month. ;)

[Guest 112233]

I've just had a decco at the stats too - and you are correct. it may be a figure in the wrong place or a fault in the source of the statistics but are these figures checked prior to publication? - I would imagine that would be the case, because of the potential commercial ramifications

I bet OP will be in contact with some details.

edit:

There's something very wrong - according to the Stats there are gaps BHX Brussels and BHX CPH for a start.

See : http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/201305/May_2013_Provisional_International_Routes.pdf

CAT III

[Planeaddict]

Crikey, I knew BHX was struggling lately but the latest May passenger stats are showing just 106154 -86.6%
Now that's what you call a quiet month. ;)

Ouch. I still think that's incorrect - how is it even possible for an airport like BHZ to drop 86% in a month?

[EI-A330-300]

CAA have updated the stats for BHX and May traffic is up 7.3% with 847,869 passengers. All route stats have also being added.

Updated at 15.35.

[OltonPete]

Cheers EI-A330-300

The rest of the figures per the CAA: -

May 2013 847869 +7.3% rolling year 8914193 +3.4%

ATM's for May 7900 +0.6% rolling year 82522 -1.1%

Third best May ever with June 2005 852K and May 2008 877K.

Business routes were a bit flat.

Barcelona was way up but that was due to increased capacity as was TK but still a 126 average pax around 80% load factor. Emirates was up 14% but still disappointing as they sent in more two class aircraft than the previous May and I was expeting it to push 40K - 67% load factor!!

BHX-Islamabad was down but first time I noticed it beat LHR-ISB.

Some BMIR figures - TLS averaged 16 or 32%, GOT averaged 22 or 45%. Lyon was of course shared with flybe. The combined figures averaged 40 with a load factor of 50%. If the flybe seat-map is reliable then BE are doing okay and hopefully BM will find an alternative route if they are not making money.

Toulouse was a bit disappointing but early days I suppose but GOT is showing promise

Pete

[getonittt]

Some BMIR figures - TLS averaged 16 or 32%, GOT averaged 22 or 45%. Lyon was of course shared with flybe. The combined figures averaged 40 with a load factor of 50%. If the flybe seat-map is reliable then BE are doing okay and hopefully BM will find an alternative route if they are not making money.

Toulouse was a bit disappointing but early days I suppose but GOT is showing promise

I agree, particularly as GOT is not served direct by other airports apart from GAT/LHR & STN . When I used the TLS flight the average pax was about as you say but they still only had 1 check in for all flights and they still haven't introduced web check in yet. Now they have changed the times of the TLS I will not use it again , the original planned times were good , hopefully they can re jig the schedule because this route can be viable .

[LAX_LHR]

I agree, particularly as GOT is not served direct by other airports apart from GAT/LHR & STN

Tis served from MAN by BA/Sun Air 11 weekly, but continues to Aarhus so the departure boards tend to get confused sometimes and thus appears like it is not served.

[getonittt]

Thank you , i stand corrected. My reason for thinking GOT was not served from MAN was that :

a) It did not seem to come up on fare search engines.
b) the CAA passenger stats from MAN to GOT were negligible .

I now see that it does come up on fare search engines , but at the crazy eye watering end of the fare scale which i don't usually look at.
That also explains point b.

[OltonPete]

Passenger figure source: CAA
Average load - a daily log from a local source
Load factors - estimates using planespotters.net etc

The overall May figure was excellent but some of the individual loads are quite average and often on some business routes not as good as April.

I have left out some flybe French routes as there was only one flight.

Some intersting sun routes - Palma and Faro over 13000 fewer pax than EMA.
in May.

Good to see Istanbul maintain a good load factor with the extra capacity but EK disappointed despite the fact it was up but fantastic compared to the GLA and NCL load factors although as a mature route you would expect it be better.

BRUSSELS...........9727 (9083)......42pax......52%

LARNACA............7110(7134).....162 pax...82%

PAPHOS................3869(4165)....149 pax...75%

Copenhagen.......6936 (7510).....71 pax.....70%

Bordeaux.............550 (nil)........69 pax-----40%

Lyon..................2782 (o).........50 pax.....50%

MONTPELIER ....1936 (2041).....108 pax....57%

NICE................4985 (4035)......113 pax....66%

PARIS (CDG).....30145 (29946)....89 pax....75%

Perpignan..........1539(nil)........96 pax......51%

Toulouse............541(nil).........16 pax....32%

BERLIN (TEGEL)...4524(nil).......81 pax...63%

DUSSELDORF....15511 (16392)..50 pax....57%

FRANKFURT ....21663(22407).....101 pax....72%

Hamburg..........2907(4625)......56 pax....65%

HANOVER.......3678 (5185)......59pax.....72% - daily from double daily

Munich...........13696 (14727).. 83 pax.....68%

STUTTGART.....3557 (3681).....38 pax.....49%

GIBRALTAR......2781 (nil).........107 pax...61%

Heraklion.........711(2644).....151 pax....79%

BUDAPEST........0(2585)...........nil pax....nil

Cork..............6292(6895) ....52 pax....72%

DUBLIN.........44336 (42594)....124 pax..68%
...
KNOCK............2479 (4688).......43 pax.....66%

SHANNON........2814 (2250)......45 pax.....70%

WATERFORD....1522 (1484)........43 pax....56%

BERGAMO........3416 (nil) ........131 pax...70%

MILAN MXP)....4632 (6523).....75 pax...66% - ZB & BE in 2012

ROME (FCO)....9210 (7348) ..149 pax..81% ZB & WW in 2012

TRIESTE .........2011(1978) ....112 pax...59%

VENICE............5235 (2757)....154 pax..85%

KAUNAS..........2815 (2893).....156 pax....83%

MALTA...........2939(2670)......163 pax...86% -

AMSTERDAM...41161(41865)......89pax....80%

ISLAMABAD.....7970 (8356) ......234 pax...72%

BYDGOSZCZ.......4393 (4807).....169 pax...89%

GDANSK..........2550 (2913).....159 pax....84%

KATOWICE........4524(4260)....162 pax...85%

KRAKOW,..........2856 (nil) .........159 pax..84%

RZESZOW.........3075 (3080).....171 pax....90%

FARO..............16113(19247)....164 pax...82%

FUNCHAL.........2259 ((nil) ........126 pax...72%

BRATISLAVA....4356(4386)......167 pax...89)

ALICANTE.......26210(26226)....156 pax..80%

ALMERIA..........3105 (3389)......173 pax....(81%

BARCELONA..... 13588(3563)......142 pax....73%

GIRONA.......... ...1968(5118)........123 pax...65%

IBIZA................600o (5749)......182 pax...72%

MAHON.............4286 (5995).........165 pax....80%

MALAGA..........25635 (26507) .....169 pax...86%

MURCIA ...... .5045 (8709)........148 pax...79% - 2012 WW & FR

PALMA ......20015 (19487).....156 pax....81%

REUS...............3470 (3439).......124 pax... Â 66%

ARRECIFE.........10591 (8187)......189 pax...95%

FUERTEVENTURA..5465(2766)......152 pax...77%

LASPALMAS..........6145(6051)........162 pax..82%

TENERIFE (TFS).....14184 (13000) ....173pax..88%

GOTEBORG...........752(30)........22 pax.....45%

Stockholm...........2733(nil)........65 pax... 45-50% approx

Dubrovnik.... ....2573 (2460).....107 pax...74%

Split............... .922 (nil)... ...92 pax....53 %

ZURICH.............8278(10920)....67 pax...68%

Bodrum.............3467(2986).....144 pax....76%

DALAMAN.........9652(8437)..... 156 pax....79%

ISTANBUL........11081(7407)....126 pax....81%

Ashkhabad........3745(4471).....104 pax...56%

DUBAI............. 34925 (30542)..282 pax...67%

Toronto.............1441(2823).....240 pax...93%

NEW YORK (EWR)..8921(9361)....154 pax..91%..

Pete

[LAX_LHR]

Thank you , i stand corrected. My reason for thinking GOT was not served from MAN was that :

a) It did not seem to come up on fare search engines.

b) the CAA passenger stats from MAN to GOT were negligible .

I now see that it does come up on fare search engines , but at the crazy eye watering end of the fare scale which i don't usually look at.That also explains point b.

Off topic but to wrap this up, MAN-GOT is one of these seldom seen routes which proves load factors are not the be all of a route. It is well supported by business links at both ends who prompted BA to take over the route after City Airline/Skyways went under (BHX-GOT by the same airline had already been dropped by the time they went bankrupt). The business links are so good for MAN-GOT that despite its paltry loads, is in the top 5 highest yielding routes for MAN, beaten only by Libyan Arab TIP-MAN and AA ORD-MAN.

[Bagso]

Yields are indeed king

On that BBC 2 prog last night some of the loads quoted were paltry so I assume pax were paying top end fares to make the flights worthwhile.

Olton Pete.
Does EK BHX outperform GLA ?
The Scotsman which may not be impartial were quoting EK sources at weekend as suggesting A380 may be put on the GLA route OR an extra daily service.

Somebody maybe blowing smoke up the Scots kilts but .......interesting nonetheless.

[jabird]

MAN-GOT that despite its paltry loads, is in the top 5 highest yielding routes for MAN, beaten only by Libyan Arab TIP-MAN and AA ORD-MAN

Just to clarify - I take it you are defining yields as average cost per occupied seat per sector, no account of distance?

Yes, we hear time and again that load factor alone is no judge or route profitability, but surely for an ongoing viable route, you need both?

Or is the base fare for these routes so high that there's never any attempt to use YM to offer more attractive fares as that would simply be "giving away" a seat, say for £100 per sector that punters are quite happy to pay 3x that amount for?

My curiosity is because I've always assumed that this kind of "f%^& off" pricing only existed in highly imperfect markets - such as the rail service that connects both the Brum and Manchester areas to London, and not in reality.

[LAX_LHR]

Just to clarify - I take it you are defining yields as average cost per occupied seat per sector, no account of distance


Yes per sector, as there are some other routes that per mile bring in more.


Yes, we hear time and again that load factor alone is no judge or route profitability, but surely for an ongoing viable route, you need both?


In terms of the airline alone, if the yield brought in covers costs and brings in profit ahead of load, then the latter does not matter too much. If you have, say, 30 seats, and you sell 10 seats at £400 a pop, that's going to bring in more money than 30 seats at £100 a pop.
High volume passenger numbers are usually more beneficial to the airport, as it brings in more money from fees (airlines pay per passenger for part of the fees), and also the increased spend at the airport.


Or is the base fare for these routes so high that there's never any attempt to use YM to offer more attractive fares as that would simply be "giving away" a
seat, say for £100 per sector that punters are quite happy to pay 3x that amount for?


Well, in further to above, if you can sell your seats at £400 from the offset and make a profit on 10, then why would you start cheaper 'just to fill the cabin' and bring in less profit. Also, in the case of MAN-GOT, its well used by regular customers, so why risk annoying them by selling cheaper tickets to fill a plane up you are already making a profit on.
Also, if you have a regular stream, why go fishing for extra when you have sufficient as is.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Weak loads are weak loads and those are weak.

WWW

[jabird]

why risk annoying them by selling cheaper tickets to fill a plane up you are already making a profit on

Yes - I get all the logic, but I've always felt you either need an incredibly strong product that people are happy to pay a whole lot more for, or the ability to block your competition if they wanted to come onto the route (hence the West Coast trains example).

I suppose T3 also play this game too, but they know that any routes they operate that get too busy will be an open call for BE to come along with a
larger a/c and much lower prices.

If the GOT market has been well measured (and it certainly looks like it has), then these routes will no doubt remain safe from any competitor coming along, as they'd have to significantly drop yield to fill a larger frame.

I think the other destination of interest here is BLL - formerly operated by Ryanair, but not on a business friendly frequency, and certainly not a business friendly service. I did BHX-BLL for 1p in 2009, and IIRC the couple of other passengers travelling didn't pay much more either.

[Ringwayman]

I've seen adverts for MAN-BLL that are slighly more than the 1p you paid for BHX-BLL. Try £343 one-way! You really don't need to get too many passengers on board if that is what is being paid.

[hammerb32]

Just been looking for fares for Gothenburg from Brum, £395 each way was the quote so hopefully a positive sign.

As per Faddypainter on ssc, Air India schedule shows 4 times a week to Delhi with a 787 from Aug 1st.

[Ringwayman]

so 6 weeks away from the AI launch date, there is no publicity for this route and you can't book it on their website.

Doesn't that strike you as being odd? Normally you'd have a 3 to 6 months lead time from route announcement through to inaugural flight so that word could be passed round the community

[Daza]

Another example of yield being more important than numbers is BHX-STR look at the passenger loads (OPs posts) yet it still operates Mon-Fri twice a day and Sunday no reduction in seats on this route since Flybe took it on. It was always very lucrative for Maersk/BA.
Another example is of this is BHX-TLS I was quoted £300 BHX-TLS in August. Booked BA Club class for £245 and have the choice of 3 flights ex LHR not the ridiculous schedule bmiregional have. I'm surprised its attracting the passengers it is. I guess again aimed at last minute business travel, not holidaymakers heading to the Pyrenees! :}
It's only the low fares and charter flights that need to fill planes to high capacity.

[justplanecrazy84]

Not sure if this helps!

Welcome to Air-India Materials Management Department (http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/IS_BHX_2510.html)

Welcome to Air-India Materials Management Department (http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/GH_COMP_BHX_1030.html)

Taken from another forum.

[Daza]

Great news!!!! :D:D:D:D

[jabird]

It's only the low fares and charter flights that need to fill planes to high capacity.

I think these examples are all niche cases, not the usual rule. BA for example, must surely still need to be looking for average LFs in the 70s, although this will vary hugely across the network.

One thing with some of the business routes is that they can be very skewed in a certain direction - e.g. if the demand is out first thing Monday, there could be hardly anyone on the return leg. That's only an issue for the locos / charters when they are operating the very first / last flights of a season (I went to DBV on the last sector out last year with BE and there were 4 of us pax).

Perhaps the only reason why these services operate at such low LFs is that they are already using the smallest a/c that might reasonably operate the route.

So I can't see 30-40% LFs breaking even on anything above the Q400/E jet size, unless it is operating as a feeder into a wider network (think Bombardier have tried to claim break even point is slightly sub 50% for this purpose, IIRC).

Which leaves me to wonder - if a return on the GOT route is £750+, how far could you push the foxtrot oscar pricing model? £3,000 air taxi for one?

[LAX_LHR]

I think these examples are all niche cases, not the usual rule


No, you are correct that it is the exception that some routes do extremely well despite low load factors.

My point was initially raised as the LF for MAN-GOT is known to be extremely low, but, is actually one of the best performing routes for yield alone.

To the casual observer who monitor Load factors alone, routes like the above will give 'cause for concern', but, BA/Sun Air are far from concerned.

[OltonPete]

Bagso

Re EK depends on if you mean pax and load factor only as for yields and freight of course I have absolutely no idea.

Currently BHX load factor has varied from 67% to 85% in the six months GLA has gone double daily whereas GLA has been 58% - 75%. However it is a bit unfair to compare in one sense as BHX has an been going 7 years longer at double daily Also GLA load factors seem to be have been better in the first few months of it going double daily but BHX started in June 05 (I think) and Eastbound traffic has moved on since. Also it looks like EK with have some competition for Indian pax

AI.

As Ringwayman has stated quite an incredibly short lead-in period but we are talking AI, which is probably like no other airline for doing the unexpected.

I guess it will be AI's last attempt at making BHX work and I suppose if an 18/238 config can't work on a 787 nothing can. Connections to ATQ and BOM are fine from the timings I have seen but not quite so good for AMD.

Pete

[jabird]

To the casual observer who monitor Load factors alone, routes like the above will give 'cause for concern', but, BA/Sun Air are far from concerned.

I'm not bothered about casual observers, but some people will ask the environmental question - ie, why are you moving so much air around, instead of selling those seats at a lower price to fill the plane.

It would be interesting to see how those routes dealt with a scenario where APD is on the aircraft, not the individual, although I think that one's a dead duck for now.

So to that question, I'd just say that most planes are mostly full most of the time. The industry is far from perfect, but the inherent thirst for kerosene that even modern jets have keeps LF's high.

[LAX_LHR]

but some people will ask the environmental question - ie, why are you moving so much air around, instead of selling those seats at a lower price to fill the plane


Well, the environmental question will provide a completely different answer to the economical one.
In terms of economics, for MAN-GOT and no doubt other similar cases around the world there is simply no need to, the route more than pays its way in its current format.

Environmentally its probably not that great, but, you have to wonder, are people that bothered when you see the bigger picture?
10-20 seats sold out of 30 on a small and quite economical propliner compared to 5 people on the private jet version of an E195, B737-700 and the likes suddenly puts it into perspective and isn't actually that bad.

[Bagso]

Jabird

That is a very very good point.

We are swallowed the line that Heathrow is highly efficient blah blah blah

OK it probably is , indeed I take my hat off to ATC, totally brilliant ...

BUT it seems perplexing to me and something that the Davies Commision s/b addressing to have flights leaving from the same airport to same destination at high frequency which are half empty!

I noticed somebody on another forum makes the same point LHR shifts tremendous amounts of traffic but most flights ...well being kind they seem pretty low on numbers.

I appreciate its competition, yes its a hub etc but something is intrinsically wrong with the model if a lot of the aircraft are not full.

OK it begs the question if you cannot fill it from Heathrow you won't fill it from anywhere where else including BHX BUT that does not mean that we carry on pursuing what in some cases is a level of futility which I do not think you would see in other organisations..

Has anybody noted the load factors on airport live, some are atrocious !

If Ryanair or Easyjet had aspirations about flying long haul, and slots were available at competitive rates from LHR how would their model differ from the jurassic carriers?

[Planeaddict]

Looks as though AI will be starting after all then?

Have any timings been released?

[bhx bod]

Great coup for BHX if it goes ahead.Like others and I have queried this in the past is the lead time.Could it be that AI have operated from here before and they are confident of the business?We shall see!!
If confirmed there will be a few hats being eaten as well!!
On the subject of load factors and yields etc,I wonder how much of BHX,s problems with attracting new routes and airlines is their charges.
Historically BHX has always been an expensive airport to not only fly from,but also to land an aircraft at.
Is there anyone out there who can provide a comparison as to how much it cost to land,handle and park an aircraft at BHX(say a B738 or A320),compared to our main competitors ie MAN,EMA or even BRS.I am sure a few people might be interested to know if this information is available from someone who has some idea.
In the meantime anyone for ketchup?:)

[hammerb32]

BHX BOD,

Charges will always vary dependant upon many factors, whilst you may find a list of headluine costs in practice I would very much doubt either the airline or airport will gie out exact costs and charges.

[future_pilot17]

Planeaddict: Looks as though AI will be starting after all then?

Have any timings been released?

Timings are in the link posted a few replies up, if you delve into them

Effective 01/August/2013

AI 150 Dep DEL 14:15 Arr BHX 19:00 B787

AI 151 Dep BHX 21:30 Arr DEL 10:20 B787

4x weekly frequency, days of operation: Mon, Tue, Thu, Sat

All looking promising hopefully :).

[Planeaddict]

AI 150 Dep DEL 14:15 Arr BHX 19:00 B787

AI 151 Dep BHX 21:30 Arr DEL 10:20 B787

Looks like we'll end up having Emirates, Air India and possibly PIA on the ground at the same time. :cool:

I hope this is the first in a string of new services for BHX and I think Air India's presence will potentially help that.

[chinapattern]

Now, where did I put that hat?

[Skipness One Echo]

I hope this is the first in a string of new services for BHX and I think Air India's presence will potentially help that.
Ah the magic drunken dartboard game of route planning....
Who buys an expensive shiny new asset like a B787 then drops it into a secondary market route (re)launch at five minutes notice. Oh wait, Air India!
Great coup for BHX if it goes ahead
I think it's great news, I really do but goodness me they haven't got a clue what they're doing as a company. The wheels are well and truly coming off.
Having said that I might be tempted to nip in and see it off a summer evening. Second time lucky I hope for the route with a right sized aircraft.

[jabird]

Well, the environmental question will provide a completely different answer to the economical one.

I think they usually provide the same answer - the more bums you have on seats, the more efficient the operation becomes as less fuel is needed to move each passenger to where they want to get to.

However, we're still back to the old question about LF v yield. You can easily work out fuel needed to move x people y miles, but to start talking in revenue terms, we're in to the unknown.

I rather suspect that moving 10 people to work on valuable business deals in GOT is still better for UK PLC than a 189 seater 738 going to AGP, with 95% of passengers being either holidaymakers or expats.

That's also where the point about biz jets being an alternative kicks in. There are other ways of getting to places like GOT, BLL etc from the BHX or MAN catchment area, including direct from LHR or a transfer via CPH etc. However, people are still happy to pay £350+ for the sector? Why? Because it takes them direct. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to consider whether a PJ would be the next most likely option if the RJ wasn't on offer.

[jabird]

Who buys an expensive shiny new asset like a B787 then drops it into a secondary market route (re)launch at five minutes notice. Oh wait, Air India!

Err - wasn't the whole point of the B787 to serve thinner routes where the demand clearly exists, but a 777/super jumbo variant would just be too big.

I don't think there is anything "secondary" about Brum in this respect - the route was profitable before, it was withdrawn over slot politics, and is an ideal place to bring in the B787 - don't even have to wait for runway xn.

Well done Brum :D:D:D

[ATNotts]

Skipness One Echo

Second time lucky I hope for the route with a right sized aircraft.

Third actually! B707s routing Mumbai (Bombay I think back then)- Delhi-Armitsar-Moscow-BHX. Started in the early 80s, and finished around 1984 after the Golden Temple attack and the violence that followed in Amritsar.

Then the 767 operation through to Toronto - allegedly pulled to preserve LHR slots, Now the 787 service which doesn't even serve the principal VFR destination from the West Midlands - Amritsar.

I really can't get over excited about this one; the start date is too soon, the airline isn't exactly in the best of financial shape either - and most importantly AI is really a politcal football kicked around by Indian politicians.

Cynical perhaps - but I think the record speaks for itself.

[GayFriendly]

AT Notts = couldn't agree more, I will believe it when I see it and then we might only see it briefly before it disappears again at the whim of the politicians who run AI and want the shiny new 787 to go elsewhere. The AI track record at BHX is quite frankly very poor. As indeed is the track record of any airline who have operated direct BHX-India services. In any case it's ATQ where BHX catchment pax head to.

Sorry to split hairs and am sure was just a typo but it was the 777 that operated ATQ-BHX-YYZ, not the 767

[ATNotts]

am sure was just a typo but it was the 777 that operated ATQ-BHX-YYZ, not the 767

Wish it was, but it wasn't! Just the result of a few more braincells biting the dust.

[bazzab68]

Air India Closes in on Birmingham Launch :: Routesonline (http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/breaking-news/205272/air-india-closes-in-on-birmingham-launch/#.UcQCFdjeQrA.twitter)

Nothing more other than expecting announcement in a week or 2.

Barry

[Bagso]

...and they 1st operated circa 78 not 2005. B707 via Moscow.

[insuindi]

HAM-BHX transfer to Germanwings now confirmed to be earlier than anticipated, 27OCT13, same date as TXl-BHX switchover.

Route will be continued to be served by Eurowings.

[getonittt]

Hasn't it gone a bit quiet in middlesex all of a sudden :

re post # 486 11/06/13 fairdealfrank said :

Would add that AI is NOT coming back to BHX (have said this several times so apologies for the repitition), and like CX, any Asia carrier adding a UK destination would indeed look at MAN first.

re post # 534 14/06/13 fairdealfrank said :

Hope the hat tastes good and doesn't give indigestion: forget 31/08/13, AI are NOT coming back to BHX (unless on a code share).

:)

[Alvechurch]

Of course not too long ago, there was a bit of speculation regarding an AI European Hub being based at BHX or Dublin.
If this works out, who knows what might follow once the runway extension is completed? ;)

[chinapattern]

In fairness to fairdealfrank they're not here yet and nothing has been officially confirmed by either parties. I'll admit things do look more promising this time but a start date of Aug 1st still seems totally unrealistic; even if they do announce that date I'd expect they'll be pushing it back until they get things in order. Remember we've had all this before with Armavia. Would be pleased to be proven wrong but as others have pointed out past history and track-records speak volumes.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Hasn't it gone a bit quiet in middlesex all of a sudden :

re post # 486 11/06/13 fairdealfrank said :"

"Would add that AI is NOT coming back to BHX (have said this several times so apologies for the repitition), and like CX, any Asia carrier adding a UK destination would indeed look at MAN first.""


Have been window shopping, that's why it's gone quiet. Want a hat that won't taste too bad or give me gut-rot.

But won't be buying just yet....

[TSR2]

Remember: He who eats his hat first, gets less indigestion.

[jabird]

I really can't get over excited about this one; the start date is too soon, the airline isn't exactly in the best of financial shape either - and most importantly AI is really a politcal football kicked around by Indian politicians.

Cynical perhaps - but I think the record speaks for itself.

Could I float another (sightly outlandish) theory?

BHX is keen to see new LH routes to recoup runway investment, so they go round offering 6 months' free service fees for any airline willing to come in. So they chat to various carriers, but none ready to commit yet. AI say they'll come back and are tempted by the offer, so they hastily rush a route launch to take advantage, and hey, the 787 can go there now, so why wait for publicity, it's a proven market?

Of course, they used to operate the larger 777, so this is a bit of a long shot, but I agree it just makes no sense to bring in a service which most people will book ahead months in advance.

As for DEL v ATQ or even BOM, how much traffic on the previous route was O&D? I'll include the continuation to DEL in those figures?

I don't know the exact demographics, but whilst ATQ is an obvious destination point for many, BOM & DEL are both larger cities and transfer hubs.

Or is most of the transfer traffic still going to funnel through DXB, given the extensive connections from there?

[getonittt]

Jabird

Interesting theory, but you also have to factor in the problems with the 787. They could have been planning this for months but then were not sure when exactly the 787's were going to come back into service and could not commit. Now they are taking delivery of more 787's they can be more certain of future plans.

[Suzeman]

Of course not too long ago, there was a bit of speculation regarding an AI European Hub being based at BHX or Dublin.
If this works out, who knows what might follow once the runway extension is completed?

That hub idea got kicked into touch and the flights operate non-stop from India to N America.

[OltonPete]

It is amazing how they (AI) do business with the tenders in the public domain and I assume it is done for "openess", which could be seen by some as ironic. I trust other airlines do it this way as well but it is just not noticed.

Welcome to Air-India Materials Management Department (http://mmd.airindia.co.in/aimmd/tender/GH_COMP_BHX_1031.html)

The link is direct from the tenders page of the Air India website and within the first like is another link to a 72 page Word Document outling the requirements and subsequent penalties if the agreement is breached through delays.

What it does say is that the tenders will be opened at 11am 10 July 2013 which if this 1st August date is correct seems somewhat tight for organisaional purposes let alone getting pax to book on the flight.

Also unless I missed it I did not find a decision date but will this have to go from AI London to AI Delhi to AI Bombay to GOI (Government approval) then the decision back to AI Bomaby to AI Delhi to AI London, if so 1st August seems about right........2014 :):):):):)

Pete

[Bagso]

Taking a delay and doing the job correctly might be preferable to a rushed start then ends in tears.

[GayFriendly]

Have AI at BHX ever not ended up in tears? I highly doubt they will start on 1st August this year but will happily join fairdealfrank in eating a hat if they do.....at least they are now a step ahead of QR in the desperate new long haul route rumour stakes. Will this be third time lucky for AI and BHX? :}

[PhilW1981]

Taking a delay and doing the job properly

Could also be interpreted as typical Indian red tape and it'll never happen.

[justplanecrazy84]

Another link.....

Air India Resumes Birmingham Service with Boeing 787 from August 2013 | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2013/06/23/ai-bhx-aug13/)

[Richard Taylor]

Get buying, Frank... ;)

[OltonPete]

Monthly stats figures supplied by the CAA and average pax per a BHX SBS report and the load factors estimated in some instances.

Something I don't usually find easy to do due to cancellations and aircraft changes but thanks to Keith's daily posting I have been able to do May reasonably quicker. 2012 in brackets.

The only errors will be if I miscounted as it was a case of totting up 31 days of flights.

Aberdeen............8671(8451)........53 pax ...63% load factor
Belfast City.....23727(29507)......74 pax....68%
Belfast Int.......12921 (nil)..........111 pax....71%
Londonderry.....4668 (4573).......130 pax.....69%
Dundee.............nil (1399)
Edinburgh.......24100 (25416).....75 pax.....72%
Glasgow.........17959 (19167).....57 pax.....55%
Inverness..........3005 (2781)......52 pax.....60%
Isle of Man-----3927 (3640)......40 pax.....51%
Guernsey -.......3565 (2264)
Jersey..............2732 (4309).......46 pax.....58% GCI/JER added together
Newcastle..........720 (1243).........8 pax....26%

Belfast destinations are quite good and hopefully they will continue to grow overall. The rest are not great although the EDI load factor is fairly impressive and surprising that GLA is a similar frequency/capacity considering the difference in the monthly figures.

I wonder how long Newcastle will continue as it is in decline in both pax and load factor and even with Easterns prices this must be on the endangered list

Air India.

Still only at stage 3 of 5 but looking good :)

1) Rumours
2) Tender
3) GDS
4) AI/BHX press release
5) On the tarmac ;)

Emirates - BHX to stay double daily during the DXB runway repairs next May? Seems that way from the EK thread.

Pete

[Monty Gordo]

Let's not be too hard on Frank, as his name implies, he is fair...

Could I suggest Frank opts for a Macaroni, a popular hat in London in the 18th century. That should not give him too much indigestion...

[chinapattern]

Given such a short run-up date is there a chance that AI would contact passengers living in the Midlands who are already booked on LHR flights and offer them the chance to switch? Is this at all practical? I know charter airlines do it quite a lot. Would at least get the ball rolling and help spread the word.

Still puzzled by a lack of any official announcement, you'd think PK would shouting this from the rooftops!

[Daza]

According to the official bhx twitter page there will be an announcement soon.:ok:
Daza

[Monty Gordo]

Chinapattern i understand your point, but wouldn't protocol dictate that the initial announcement would be made by the airline itself. Once that is made I am sure PK would be eager to shout it from the rooftops.

So if, as Daza says, an announcement is imminent, then we won't have long to wait.

[canberra97]

According to www.airlineroute.net (http://www.airlineroute.net) online this is the following.

Air India Resumes Birmingham service with Boeing 787 from August 2013.

Air India on Saturday 22 June 2013 opened reservations for a resumption of Delhi - Birmingham service, where it will operate this route with Boeing 787 aircraft, 4 times a week starting 01 August 2013, currently reservation is available through travel agents as online booking for this route is not currently available on Air India's website at present time.

AI113 DEL 1330 - 18.00 BHX 788 x 357

AI114 BHX 2130 - 1005+1 DEL 788 x 357

[justplanecrazy84]

It might not happen but just read on twitter that an A380 should be flying into BHX on Tuesday! The tweet came from a pilot who flys from BHX and is apparently giving up a day of gliding to watch it. Like I said it might not happen but thought I would give you guys a heads up!

[crewmeal]

Which service EK37/38 or EK39/40? Believe it when it's on the deck!

[justplanecrazy84]

I agree crewmeal don't believe it until it's on the ground and like I said it might not happen but as it came from a pilot who is based at BHX then I thought he could be right so thought I would let people know just in case it happens

[bhx bod]

Just read on 'airline route updates' that Air India has temporarily closed reservations for the BHX route.An official announcement from the airline will
be given that the route will be operated however in the next few hours or days.
Things never go smoothly for bhx do they?:sad:

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Just read on 'airline route updates' that Air India has temporarily closed reservations for the BHX route.


Air India Temporary Closes Reservation for Aug 2013 Birmingham Resumption as of 24JUN13 | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2013/06/24/ai-bhx-aug13update2/)

[OltonPete]

Still bookable from winter in one GDS.

Pete

[spentaylor]

And just announced on Midlands Today with an August start date

[FlyboyUK]

Rumours floating around of AI 787 visiting tomorrow on a proving flight & possibly BA A380 in for training tomorrow too (have they taken delivery yet?)

[LAX_LHR]

There will be no BA A380 visit, it has no need to, as the BA diversion alternates for the aircraft are MAN/PIK and LGW.

[chinapattern]

Rumours floating around of AI 787 visiting tomorrow on a proving flight & possibly BA A380 in for training tomorrow too

My word, Planeaddict won't be able to contain himself!

[RealFish]

Not BA's 380. Their first (XLEA) will be delivered on the 4th July with training taking place at Manston thereafter. I am sure, though, I have read that BHX will indeed be designated a diversion option.

NB: BA's first 787's are due to arrive on Wednesday / Thurs

[LAX_LHR]

I am sure, though, I have read that BHX will indeed be designated a diversion option


No it won't. BHX has asked for advance warning to receive an A380 as its still not 'fully capable', and that's something you don't have a lot of when you are diverting.

The BA diversion points for the A380 are PIK/LGW/MAN.

[OltonPete]

United Newark to 5 weekly for a month, EDI gets a reduction as well.

UNITED W13 European Operation Changes as of 24JUN13 | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2013/06/24/ua-europe-w13update4/)

I would not have been surprised if had been mid-Jan to mid-Feb and the Sunday BHX departure as I keep an eye on the flight all last winter albeit via the seat-map but Sunday was by far the weakest day for loads in general and business seats taken when I looked.

Air India

I don't why airlineroute.net bother sometimes, at least point out it is loaded November onwards. Another article below.

Air India to launch Birmingham-Delhi direct flights from August 1 - The Economic Times (http://tinyurl.com/l4bj7fj)

Pete

[Planeaddict]

Rumours floating around of AI 787 visiting tomorrow on a proving flight & possibly BA A380 in for training tomorrow too (have they taken delivery yet?)

What kind of training would they need to do at BHX?

[crewmeal]

I would imagine it's what BHX can do for the A380. Vital handing all round is essential along with the correct widening of taxiways, fire service and catering facilities must be updated along with fully trained personal.

Regarding AI I'm sure when it will be confirmed then they will announce it formally and indeed (as already mentioned) PK can shout it from the roof tops and get the cakes ready for the 'first' flight. Until then as I keep saying, believe it when it happens.

[Facelookbovvered]

I'm at a loss to understand the fascination & interest in whether or not AI flying to BHX, i do appreciate that for a large minority of the local population it allows access to their former homeland, but unless your a spotter its not really beneficial especially if you land after after one of these flights and spend hours going through security whilst our wonderful border agency do their work?

It might edge the passenger numbers up a bit but the economic benefit to the airport other than handling fee's is marginal.

BHX needs to be attracting the likes of Vueling,Norwegian & Jet2, if only to prod the likes of Monarch to up their game. 5 flights a week on a 777 are nothing compared with 50 flights a week a couple of based 737/320 could deliver.

Lets face it how many non national Indian's are going to think great lets grab a flight to Delhi to see the Taj Mahal this weekend ( I've been and its beautiful but outside the grounds it looks like a Brumi tip in the 60"s)

So can someone please explain all this moist affection for will they wont they fly into BHX?

[Bagso]

Might it effect EK as well ?

[getonittt]

I'm at a loss to understand the fascination & interest in whether or not AI flying to BHX

Because this is the BHX thread. Maybe... ?

BHX needs to be attracting the likes of Vueling,Norwegian & Jet2, if only to prod the likes of Monarch to up their game.

At the moment there are no rumours of impending operations by Vueling , Norwegian & Jet2. When there is there will be moist affection towards those airlines too.

Lets face it how many non national Indian's are going to think great lets grab a flight to Delhi to see the Taj Mahal this weekend

India is in the Top 10 in the world for GDP and does have strong business links to the midlands region. Remind me again who owns the JLR group.....

[ATNotts]

BHX needs to be attracting the likes of Vueling,Norwegian & Jet2, if only to prod the likes of Monarch to up their game

And why does BHX need all these airlines, apart from to spice up the reggie count?

Most likely, all the would bring to the table are yet more capacity on the bucket and spade routes, diluting the market, to the point where none of the carriers makes anything out of them.

As for the economic benefit to the airport of AI, as anyone who has ever seen flights arriving and departing from the subcontinent, each passenger seems to require two hands full of meeters and greeters, all of whom will spend money in the (overpriced) car parks, and catering establishments, whilst they are waiting for their loved ones to be interogated by HM Border Agency.

That sounds like a good revenue stream to me, both for concessions, and the airport for their rake off from said concessions.

[GayFriendly]

Excellent posts AT Notts and gettonit

I'd like to add why do Monarch need a prod as you put it to up their game? They have shown a massive commitment to BHX, have greatly developed their route structure, provided cabin crew and flight deck jobs and are on the verge of opening their new engineering hangar, so more jobs. No airline is perfect but Monarch have contributed a lot to BHX success in the last few years.

I'm sure if your local airport (i'm guessing by your location its BHD and or BFS) was about to welcome EK, EY, AC or indeed any of the long haul carriers that serve non-London airports in the UK right now you too would be moist with affection and enthusiasm

And finally, AI flights from BHX are NOT primarily aimed at UK residents traveliing to India on holiday - they are primarily for the substantial VFR traffic (who spend in the airport) and hopefully business traffic between their growing econiomy and the many links they have with the Midlands.

[Monty Gordo]

Well Facelookbovvered, from your name i'm surprised that you are remotely interested in what happens at BHX......

But to add to what has been said about this development, BHX is aspirational in wanting to attract medium and long haul routes to the Midlands, and why shouldn't it? However, from an ethnic base and also from a commerical point of view (ie JLR) new routes to Asia, and India in particular, will be welcomed.

All we want now is the start date...

[Artie Fufkin]

At the moment there are no rumours of impending operations by Vueling , Norwegian & Jet2. When there is there will be moist affection towards those airlines too.
There were incredibly strong rumours of one of them opening a base. Indeed, it very nearly happened this April, but said northern UK based low-cost mob have allegedly lost interest.

[justplanecrazy84]

Emirates Outlines Planned May ? July 2014 Service Reduction | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2013/06/23/ek-s14update1/)

Out of GLA and BHX i always thought GLA was doing better so surprised to see its been dropped to 1 daily during the enhancement period.

Has anyone got any info on which route is the better performer?

[hammerb32]

It's often said thay GLW performs better as they offered 1st class up there, that said load factor wise I imagine BHX is higher. Would also add that business class out of BHX is now often fully booked on both flights so yield wise would suggest BHX is performing well.

[OltonPete]

Facelookbovvered

I think the general consensus is that the service is a big deal, probably more for BHX than AI although without doubt with major risks for both. You would think it is third time lucky or buried once and for all.

Although as a new route, landing fees will be nil in the first year (I Believe), there will be the passenger service charge and as others have mentioned the spending in the shops and bars.

In my younger days I worked the bars at BHX during Air India's first attempt and takings tripled on the days the AI operated and you could see the pounds sign in the THF manager's eyes as the shift began :).

Never any trouble (unlike the Saturday night summer crowd) and a great atmosphere although loads did swing wildly on the 707 from 15 to 150.

justplanecrazy84

It is not really fair to compare with Glasgow, as double daily has only been going 8 months in GLA and BHX since June 2005 or 2006. Also only Emirates really know the true yield although some travel agents might have an idea re the types of tickets sold but that would only be a sample.

Pete

[chinapattern]

Apparently Royal Jordanian are entering the ATQ market; I wonder if they're on BHX's target list?

[justplanecrazy84]

Thanks OP! I did wonder if it was something to do with AI starting up and not wanting to lose any passengers to them?

[Planeaddict]

No A380 today then.

Apparently Royal Jordanian are entering the ATQ market; I wonder if they're on BHX's target list?

DEL do connecting flights to ATQ don't they?

AI will probably take up all that pax, so the use of other airlines (like EK and TK at present) for connections to ATQ is probably going to drop a bit.

[OltonPete]

Without wanting to bore anybody in respect of a service that hasn't even started but this is taken from GDS.

Currently September 2013 without Air India, not definative and one-stop only

Delhi - EK DXB, LH FRA, TK, IST LX ZRH, SN/9W BRU, KL AMS & AF CDG
Mumbai - as above minus AF but plus LH MUC
Chennai - LH FRA & EK DXB
Ahmedabad - EK DXB
Kolkata - EK DXB
Sharmsabad (Hydrabad) -EK

Non-GDS
Amritsar - Turkmenistan

November - All of the above offered via Air India BHX - Del with reasonable connections.

Bagso

Looks like EK will face some more competition, as you would expect they currently offer a good range and I am sure they will feel it a bit although I am not sure that AI will get them too worried.

Not sure how much it will affect T5 as it is still a one-stop to Amritsar and I suppose it will be down to price.

Facelookbovvered - I agree to a point that short-haul should not be over-looked but the long-haul airlines and their pax seem to hand over the money (If you believe everything you hear) whereas it seems to be hard work with the loco's although the Manchester model seems to be working but that is not quite comparing like for like.

Qatar - Currently flying DOH-ATQ I wonder if AI might push this back even further, not that there was any recent sign of a start.Pete

[GayFriendly]

They might be on BHX's target list but is BHX on theirs?? Having said that, it could potentially work - they offer very good eastbound connections through AMM (although limited in number of destinations) and Jordan itself is a popular tourist destination. However relying on ATQ connecting traffic and holidaymakers is low yield traffic so at best a marginal route? Can't see much business traffic demand.

I think there is more chance that EZY would launch MAN-AMM to complement their thriving LGW service or that RJ would head to MAN over BHX.

OP has raised a good point - what of T5 and EK once AI start? Hope there is room for all, they happily co-existed before and that's when AI flew direct to ATQ.

QR would surely launch BHX based on potential for connections to all destinations not just because of demand for ATQ, a route I'm sure it happily fills from DOH without the need for pax from BHX.

[crewmeal]

Lets take a closer look at this. I don't feel this would work for the following reasons. BA and RJ have the UK - AMM route sown up from LHR. EZE have 4 flights a week from LGW, but their pricing structure is sometimes more than flying from LHR. LGW is not an obvious choice to fly from for Midlanders. There isn't an Arab community as such in the Birmingham area that would use the route to make it profitable. From a tourist point, having lived in Jordan tourism is very small and it would not sustain enough to support the route, which means RJ would rely solely on the Indian community. Jordanians are loyal to their flag carrier and when BMI took on the route they jumped on the back of GB Airways which had established the route via BA's marketing. It didn't work because no one in Jordan had heard of BMI. If RJ were to operate they would need to pitch their fares and timings that would suit the BHX market. Finally with what's going on next door in Syria tourism has dropped off dramatically and with the failure of other carriers to operate a successful route to ATQ it doesn't bode well for RJ.

[Jonnyf]

According to Airlineroute, Reservation has now re-opened at 17:00 GMT 26th JUN.

[UPDATE 3 as of 26JUN13] Air India Reopens Reservation for Birmingham Service due 01AUG13 | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates (http://airlineroute.net/2013/06/24/ai-bhx-aug13update2/)

[Hotel Tango]

Well, I just tried and BHX Birmingham is not listed or recognised.

[OltonPete]

Hotel Tango

airlineroute.net only check GDS and not the airline websites and this service has never appeared in the booking engine on the Air India site.

However they only sample check and hence the first post they made was inaccurate although I think it was altered to add 1/8/13-1/11/13. Since the route was loaded into GDS it never went completely off sale only the August to October 2013 portion.

Ryanair

Wednesday Arrecife has appeared for winter, now matching the summer schedule for frequencies (most of the time).

Pete

[Planeaddict]

It should be loaded into the GDS soon.

Any ideas on how that A45 diversion is getting on? As far as I know they were hoping for it to be done by the end of the month.

[jabird]

I'm at a loss to understand the fascination & interest in whether or not AI flying to BHX

I'd refer you back up to your browser header and the bit that says "PPRuNe". We love gossip and this route has generated plenty of it, and will no doubt continue to do so until it has re-started and proven itself to be established.

It might edge the passenger numbers up a bit but the economic benefit to the airport other than handling fee's is marginal.

For better or worse, mgmt are clearly going for the long haul market, and they want to see return for the runway xn. Now this route may operate fine without it, but it shows the airport is open for other carriers who will use it.

Lets face it how many non national Indian's are going to think great lets grab a flight to Delhi to see the Taj Mahal this weekend

Well I for one have never been to India, would love to go, and would certainly spend a lot more than a weekend there. I wouldn't expect AI direct from BHX to be the cheapest option, but if the seats were going, I'd take them.

There are lots of things that add up to make a route profitable, and if this was profitable before, given the 787s fuel economy, let's hope it is profitable again.

[Planeaddict]

I believe the whole joining of the A45 occurs in a few weeks time.

[Kazamb]

The fares seem to be very well priced to attract passengers, especially the business class offering
http://backoffice.skyres.com/skyOffersftp/SkyBoOffers/AI29JUN13.pdf

[Jonnyf]

Air India now bookable except on there own website.

[nigel osborne]

Re Air India,

Yes from 1st August,competitive fares and some good connections.

Well done BHX for securing this service ,lets hope its well advertised. With just 18 Business class seats to fill, ideal for BHX.

Not heard much from the BHX bashers who scoffed it would never happen !

Nigel

[Monty Gordo]

Now on their own website.....

[crewmeal]

Nigel, I don't think it's a question of bashing, more believing than anything given AI's reputation at BHX. I hope this service takes off in a big way after all the disappointments with this route. I guess (if this works) that this is one of the reasons the 787 was built for to cater for the regional airports around the world. However I hope a direct route to India doesn't dilute EK's traffic or indeed put off any future plans QR might have.

[jabird]

Not heard much from the BHX bashers who scoffed it would never happen !

I'm glad to see AI on this route, and I want Brum to succeed. However, any bashing at PK & cronies for wanting to become a London hub is entirely reasonable imho.

Even the runway extension remains a dubious investment. If anything, Air India are proving that you can serve destinations like DEL with a 787 on the current runway, thus numerous other destinations can likewise be served.

The 787 may still be a teething baby, but its usage will grow in time. Of course, airlines want flexibility in the meantime, so if those of us extension sceptics have to tuck in to a hat or two over the first few years, we may well still be proven right in the longer run.

For the time being though, glad I wasn't one to say AI wouldn't come back, especially as the only hat I possess is a bike helmet, and that is going to taste pretty disgusting.

[nigel osborne]

Jaibird,

LOL.. yes think you saved your teeth by 24hrs as it starts 1st August.

Crewmeal,

I hope it is advertised properly, fares seem good and some good connections, and with only 18 Business Class seats ideal for BHX market share you would think..

In relation to the extension not being needed for this flight, well if I had researched properly I would have found that flight time to Delhi is about 8hrs 30 mins, and to Orlando, 8hrs 50 mins..

So if the current TOM 767 can make Orlando direct, then its not a problem for the AI 787 with probably less weight is it ? So I was wrong too.

We will have to therefore judge the extension, as its a long term investment against routes over 9 hours, and see in 20 yrs whether we have picked up enough such routes to claim it was worth it..it is silly to claim its a failure before it has a chance to prove itself.

Re Qatar , I certainly wouldn't rule it out yet, in fact a few crew that I know say their are strong rumours it will be starting soon.However whether crew have access to inside info that is 100% reliable I don't know.

The Air India announcement shows some full fare longish haul airlines are interested in BHX, that should add hope to our Qatar aspirations perhaps.

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

Re Qatar , I certainly wouldn't rule it out yet, in fact a few crew that I know say their are strong rumours it will be starting soon.However whether crew have access to inside info that is 100% reliable I don't know.

They initially announced plans to serve BHX about a year ago - it would be nice for it to come to fruition, but we had our doubts around AI and look what's happened there. I'm sure if they were to start 'soon', then we should hear an announcement before the end of the year at best.

The Air India announcement shows some full fare longish haul airlines are interested in BHX, that should add hope to our Qatar aspirations perhaps.

And possibly a new transatlantic service (though I assume that's a little more complicated).

[StoneyBridge Radar]

The Air India announcement shows some full fare longish haul airlines are interested in BHX, that should add hope to our Qatar aspirations perhaps.

I'm not sure I share the same level of optimism. Air India should perform well; right size aircraft, right frequency, most economical airframe. Hell, if they can't make it work on that basis, they may as well give up before they even start!

I do worry about the draw it will have on Emirates' loads, but stand to eat my words if pax figures prove me wrong over the next twelve months.

That said, Qatar will, I am sure, have weighed up the current situation at BHX with the Air India launch. I think it would be foolhardy for them to launch now, at a time when loads on Emirates are not stellar and with Air India also now claiming market share.

The question which needs to be addressed is whether there currently is the demand for another carrier going east; I'm not convinced.

[jabird]

Jaibird,

LOL.. yes think you saved your teeth by 24hrs as it starts 1st August.

Why did I save my teeth? I never said AI wouldn't come back, I think there's plenty of commercial logic behind this return.

My issue is over the long term viability of the extension, and more to the point, over this ridiculous notion of a Midlands airport being a London hub, a concept which was firmly rejected when the whole Rugby Airport hoax was propagated more than a decade ago.

Now we have even more nonsense, with the "Go HS2" coalition trying to claim that the already inflated budget for HS2 is justified, because it will feed "a growing BHX". BHX is not growing - it has had one good route announcement against a tide of not much else happening.

Yet the second runway plan would need government funding to make it happen, something there is clearly not desire for in Westminster. So to say this justifies an already expensive rail project is grossly irresponsible. Brum Chamber of Commerce, as an organisation representing the businesses that pay the taxes to fund this largess, should know better.

[RealFish]

Quote:

Even the runway extension remains a dubious investment. If anything, Air India are proving that you can serve destinations like DEL with a 787 on the current runway, thus numerous other destinations can likewise be served.

But surely the runway extension will offer the opportunity for greater payloads i.e additional freight, thereby supporting route viability.

[getonittt]

Runway extension

I believe the airports outlay for this project was in the region of £7M, funding for the rest was from different sources . I will stand to be corrected on that figure, but if that is correct then it was a very cute move by the airport , even if it's only for the kudos ! After all, £7M is the going rate for a run of the mill football player these days.

Air India V Emirates

Some are worried about these 2 fighting for the pax . I think it will affect turkmenistan to some degree , but when i told an indian friend about the new service she was glad as she and her family usually use LHR and will now fly from BHX on the 787.

QATAR

planeaddict :

They initially announced plans to serve BHX about a year ago
I don't think they did , maybe you heard something more unofficial .

[splash&dash]

Quote-
"But surely the runway extension will offer the opportunity for greater payloads i.e additional freight, thereby supporting route viability."

Exactly! And the runway extension enables flights of in-excess of 9hrs+.

Ok, so we have TK, EK, PK, T5 and now AI heading east which is great, what about heading west or south?
I'm only talking scheduled flights here but we only have CO and summer only TS transatlantic so surely there's scope to expand on this? IMO the 787 is the perfect aeroplane to serve BHX with long haul routes, so which destinations would be realistic? Mine would be ORD, ATL, YVR or LAX purely for connections.
A bit of a wish list I know but why not? ORD was successful but missed out big time on the restricted freight limit due to insufficient runway length for the 763. But with 787s coming online and the extension this won't be a problem. LAX would offer alternative westbound connections to Australasia. Any thoughts?

[chinapattern]

I think it will affect turkmenistan to some degree

T5 have weathered the storm with AI at BHX before and survived. Although they might ditch the 757 from the route for good now - if they haven't already done so?

Ok, so we have TK, EK, PK, T5 and now AI heading east which is great, what about heading west or south?

Sadly I don't think there is much scope going west at the moment; United are going down to just x5 weekly for a month or so in the new year so the reality is BHX cannot even sustain a daily 757 across the pond all year round anymore. Considering the 757s will not be around forever it will be interesting to see what United will do when they're gone.

[bhx bod]

splash&dash.
I agree about ORD.That service was relatively successful and as you rightly pointed out suffered from restrictions on freight carriage,particularly in hot weather.There has been noises about the service returning but we await that announcement.Not only that ,it seemed to complement the EWR service rather
hinder it,proving 2 airlines could operate similar services across the pond.Remember the PHL didn't do too badly while it operated.In fact both EWR & PHL went out with similar loads for much of that summer.However I don't know how good the yields were,and that unfortunately is the problem.
As for QTR those stories first surfaced towards the end of last autumn,early winter.If the airline still intend to start up then as others have said it will depend
on how far up the pecking order BHX is.I'm not so sure QTR will be too worried about AI as they will be looking further afield for onward connections and possibly taking pax off EK and TK to the far east.T5 may be the biggest loser.
It is all speculation of course but as long as BHX mgmt are talking to airlines then anything is possible.
I would like to see Oslo,Helsinki and perhaps an eastern European city or 2 added as well as the usual suspects VIE,MAD and PRG.
With the recent success of JLR and the reborn MG series it would also be nice to see some freight schedules added as well.We can dream can't we?;)

[OltonPete]

Air India launches Delhi from August 1st - Birmingham Airport (http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/meta/news/2013/07/airindia-news-article.aspx)

Press release announcing the service

Pete

[Hotel Tango]

Considering the 757s will not be around forever it will be interesting to see what United will do when they're gone

It wouldn't surprise me if it became a 787 route when that time comes.

[Daza]

It looks as if the new AI service will originate and end in ATQ according to the Hindustan Times. So answers all the sceptics who thought only ATQ could work now the route serves both ATQ and DEL. :D
Link Air India to relink Amritsar, Birmingham from Aug 1 - Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Punjab/Amritsar/Air-India-to-relink-Amritsar-Birmingham-from-Aug-1/SP-Article1-1086089.aspx)

AI 113 1246 ATQ 1030 DEL 1145 1330 BHX 1800 788
AI 114 1246 BHX 2130 DEL 1005 1205 ATQ 1315 788

In typical AI fashion their website shows the connecting flight as A321 :}

[StoneyBridge Radar]

All systems are showing it as an aircraft change in DEL to an A321.

[mart901]

Any info on NOC, still not on EI website past Oct.

[nigel osborne]

JAIBIRD, Re AI

You initially questioned whether it would happen at all, then after I disageed, you changed it saying what you meant to say was that it wouldn't happen before the end of July..

hence as its starting 1/8 you were saved by 1 day !! All joking of course.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Hotel Tango,

Rre United and BHX..

Its a really big problem, currently the UA 757s have just 16 Business Class Seats to fill.

Their 787s have 36 lie flat Business class seats 70 Economy Plus, and 113 Economy.

Thats a huge jump in front end for BHX. Perhaps they will offer to a kinder 2 class config which might be better for us.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Getonnitt.

Planeaddict is right,

Qatar did say a year ago that they would be starting Birmingham and 2 other UK destinations they didn't name.

What they didn't say is when that would be.

Nigel

[getonittt]

Oh i see you were referring to Al bakar reportedly saying to a travel magazine that Birmingham will be served ' sometime ' if we get 'some more planes ' and will also to be serving 'some other UK airports' as initial plans for start up , sorry , my bad.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I think we are being somewhat premature in planning United Dream)liners into BHX, or indeed the rest of the UK beyond LHR.

When the 787s become a larger part of their European ops., the UK and Ireland will be the last destinations to see them.

The fact is, the 757 is currently the optimum frame for UK regional transatlantic hops. They are relatively economical, they have the appropriate split between J and Y capacity and they can operate the hops to EWR year round without refuelling stops.

There will come the day when the transatlantic 757s get retired, but I'd wager the last one back to the states will be from a UK port...

[Hotel Tango]

Nigel, I wasn't suggesting that it would happen tomorrow so to speak. However, one could also argue that by providing a better Business Class product than that presently available on the B757 it would generate more C class sales. I could see Business travellers who want the lie-flat seats - who live between LHR and BHX - opting for BHX iso LHR. They could also of course opt to operate a number of their B787 a/c in a different configuration.

[chinapattern]

Noticed on the BHX blog that SAS have temporarily suspended the route; anyone know for how long?

[getonittt]

It's not a temporary suspension per se , more a planned break in schedules. It will be back in august.

[Off Stand]

The UA 757's do have lie-flat Business First seats, 16 as already stated. However, only 14 can be sold due to 2 seats being blocked off for flight crew rest.

It's a shame that the 767-200's have almost disappeared from the fleet, 24 Business First seats would have been ideal.

[nigel osborne]

Offstand.

Hoping that United will offer another 787 config for its thinner routes.

BHX is hitting over 85% load factor with the 757 but don't know how many people are paying full fare business class as opposed to economy passengers bein upgraded.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Hotel Tango,

We probably have another 3-5 yrs left for the UA 757s so still time for yield to pick up if its not good.

Yes another config on the 787 might be helpful.

Nigel

[OltonPete]

Aer Lingus

From the Cork thread good to see Aer Lingus increasing BHX - Cork albeit only two extra frequencies a week but it allows a business day at both ends on a Monday and Friday.

Schedule for Mondays and Friday at the BHX end

In 08.15-08.50 out
In 16.30-17.00 out
In 20.30-21.00 out

mart901 - Not heard anything re Knock. Even at 4 a week on the AT72 would be better than nothing or all this Dublin extra capacity.

Newark

Without being too boring but I agree with most - 787 business seating config is far too big at present for BHX but if it could be tweaked or could the market grow into the aircraft although with fuel, APD and the economy that seems the least likely and as SBR stated the UK will probably be the last to change from the 757.

Without going into fairyland wasn't it hoped the 321NEO could be tweaked to get it to the UK and Ireland with a hope of selling it to United, EI for a transatlantic sub-fleet or is that just pie-in-the-sky"?

Pete

[rutankrd]

Quoting Hotel Tango,

We probably have another 3-5 yrs left for the UA 757s so still time for yield to pick up if its not good.

Yes another config on the 787 might be helpful.

Nigel

The replacement for the PMCO 75w will be PMUA two class 763s.
These are frames formally used by UA Hawaiian/West coast flights.

[Hotel Tango]

Well, bang goes that theory then ;)

[E75toDUS]

It's not a temporary suspension per se , more a planned break in schedules. It will be back in august.

Basically most of Sweden is on holiday for the next 4-6 weeks, so I would expect business travel falls off a cliff. No demand for BHX, and good demand for bucket and spade routes.

[jabird]

Nigel,

You initially questioned whether it would happen at all, then after I disageed, you changed it saying what you meant to say was that it wouldn't happen before the end of July..

Did I?

I really don't recall saying anything negative about the possibility of AI returning. Plenty of others did, and all for very sound reasons. I'm glad to see AI back. I certainly never made any predictions about a route starting or not by any date. I don't do that - I'm interest in which airlines go where, and why, I don't speculate on the exact dates, as any route that is going to be viable in the long run can afford to wait a few months before it starts.

[jabird]

My turn to eat a hat I think.

Nope, hat eating is strictly for people who have promised to eat one if proven wrong, not for other mistakes, which we all make, all of the time. :cool:

Have a good weekend, J

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Did I?

I really don't recall saying anything negative about the possibility of AI returning. Plenty of others did, and all for very sound reasons. I'm glad to see AI back. I certainly never made any predictions about a route starting or not by any date. I don't do that - I'm interest in which airlines go where, and why, I don't speculate on the exact dates, as any route that is going to be viable in the long run can afford to wait a few months before it starts."

Quote: "JAIBIRD.

Ive just checked the earlier threads on this topic .. Sincere apologies it was not you but someone else that said that.

My turn to eat a hat I think.

Nigel"



Quote: "Nope, hat eating is strictly for people who have promised to eat one if proven wrong, not for other mistakes, which we all make, all of the time.

Have a good weekend, J"

That's me (and some others), have to hold my hand up! Am at present looking for a small chocolate hat, just in case.

Daft idea to do ATQ-DEL-BHX rather than DEL-ATQ-BHX. DEL-ATQ-BHX is just 5mi. longer than DEL-BHX (great circle mapper) so ATQ is virtually overflown on the DEL-BHX sector.

Bearing in mind that a significant proportion of the business would be VFR to/from the ATQ area, AI would be wasting some 500 mi. worth of fuel, and unneccesarily inconveniencing the above-mentioned pax.

Change at DEL, or change at DXB? Nonstop to ATQ and stay on the plane (at ATQ) for DEL could give AI the advantage of direct flights, assuming it gets its act together of course.

AI can hardly afford this wastage, given it's precarious financial situation, and it's not as if a crew change would be neccesary on DEL-ATQ-BHX, assuming that a DEL-based crew is used.

[nigel osborne]

You have a good one too JAIBIRD.

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

Planes at Birmingham Airport | 04/09/05 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt-zVi1z2k0&feature=youtu.be)

BHX in 2005. Back when we had Air India, BMIBaby, MyTravel and the lot! Some nostalgia for you lot. ;)

[crewmeal]

Planeaddict you would do well to put your videos that are spread all over different forums in one place - ie Spectators balcony spotters forum. That's what it's there for.

[getonittt]

For 2014 up to JUNE the BMIR schedules from BHX are :

GOT down to 5 a week (No Wednesday)
BLL down to 5 a week (No Wednesday)
LYS down to 5 a week (No Wednesday)
TLS down to 5 a week (No Wednesday)

So what is the based aircraft going to do all day on a Wednesday?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Half day closing on a Wednesday :p

[OltonPete]

getonittt

I think Wednesday for business especially in the morning can be quite lean if there isn't a trade fair on at the NEC.

However compared to summer 13 it is not that bad

BLL - no change as it is already five a week as Tuesday does not operate - well not just yet but it is showing as commencing in September

LYS - is actually up two as it only operates at three a week at present - Not sure why you would operate Lyon three a week in September but five in November

Loads have been low at times but it is early days, I just wish they would leave Lyon to flybe and look elswhere or even go back to the original Toulouse timings as the feedback I have heard from people who have booked on it and from this site is less than favourable compared to the late morning departure it is at present.

Air France

GDS showing an upgrade to A319's from winter

SAS - Saturday Copenhagen operates again for part of the winter although it does stop over Christmas until February when it is showing as a Boeing 717, as is Monday - Friday in the morning from mid January.

On a less positive note Ryanair have a few routes that are not bookable in the New Year. Barcelona bookable to 20/1/14, Bratislava to 11/1/14 and Malta 13/1. BCN when they flew it to GRO and BTS have stopped before during parts of the winter but Malta?????

Pete

[GayFriendly]

Although a very long way ahead it would appear that ZB have taken SPU off sale for the summer 2014 period. Perhaps a website glitch or indeed it is dropped. How have loads been on this route so far this summer?

[TartinTon]

Looks like a glitch...on the website now

[Planeaddict]

Trying to get sponsorships for a proposed new viewing area at BHX - someone from Easyjet is taking a look at it now as I've heard, but I've sent out an email to numerous companies.

How is the A45 link-up getting on?

[nigel osborne]

Plane Addict, good luck with the petition.

There is a sign up saying road delays extended to 12th August.. they are starting to join the old A45 with the new loop from the end of July.

They are laying the footpaths ,and looks like you will get a good view of the end of the extension from part of it, with a 4ft wooden fence going up.

Unless they put sign up saying "Spotters must not lurk on the path " lol.

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

An Iberia A330 diverted into BHX yesterday due to an accident at Heathrow.

Some nice pictures here: http://bhxflightguide.********.co.uk/2013/07/friday-12-july-2013.html

(blog spot (without spaces) goes in the space of the censored word :cool:).

And an official viewing area would be viable considering the airport's bound to get much busier in the next year or so.

[bhx bod]

Further to discussion earlier in the month it would appear that AI is now extending its service from BHX to ATQ without a plane change.
According to Airline Route updates on 3 days at least AI113 days 35&7 will start at ATQ on the Dreamliner and return as AI114 days 14&7 on to ATQ.
I guess it will be a plane change on 4th weekly service.
Things do seem to have gone very quiet again on the rumour/confirmed news front.Is everyone on holiday?;)

[OltonPete]

Source: CAA

June 2013 943863 up 3.4% with rolling year 8945360 up 3.1%.

June 2005 was 960419 the highest and 2008 936798 therefore June 2013 slots in at number 2.

ATM 8494 up 5.9% - no doubt due to Baby effectively removing two based aircraft on 10 June last year.

These are good - I expected 940000 amd even nudged ahead of Luton, well only for one month but still a surprise.

As usual some surprises with the routes with the biggest shock is the tiny increase in the Dublin figures considering EI added three extra a day and even FR added a 4th service on a Thursday.

Emirates was up and averaged 75%, TK managed over 80% load factor despite 10 a week compared to 7 last June and even Newark was up (92% load factor).

Pete

[getonittt]

On 24/06/13 LAX LHR quoted:

There will be no BA A380 visit, it has no need to, as the BA diversion alternates for the aircraft are MAN/PIK and LGW.

There is a BA A380 due at the end of the month for a visit. :)

[LAX_LHR]

There is a BA A380 due at the end of the month for a visit


Yes it has now been decided to run a UK publicity tour. Im not officially allowed to say the dates/times, but no doubt the various airports forums will be buzzing soon as the handling arrangements have been sent to the ones in question.

The dates will be confirmed by BA soon.

However, I do stand by earlier comments. Firstly, my comments were mainly aimed that the A380 would not be visiting on the 25th June when the speculation began, and secondly it was previously stated that the A380 would not visit BHX exclusively for a 'test' and the policy still remains that BHX will not be an alternative.

[Hotel Tango]

I presume you mean "alternate".

[VickersVicount]

Not sure why it would go to BHX given that there haven't been any BA ops at BHX for years. I suppose the airports that could support a visit are limited.

[splash&dash]

LAX LHR. Quote -

"secondly it was previously stated that the A380 would not visit BHX exclusively for a 'test' and the policy still remains that BHX will not be an alternative."

Quite a naive comment. It would be an alternative if LHR, LGW and PIK were not available due to weather etc or emergency. The same has applied to Emirates A380 for a couple of years now and with BA doing a publicity/training/proving flight into BHX just dots the I's and crosses the t's for their compliance too. The same goes for the other UK airport visits i guess. The more airfields you can fit on your diversion alternate database the better. I presume you are referring to LGW and PIK as primary alternates which along with MAN id agree but BHX will be down the list as a secondary/emergency alternate.

Rumour has it that BA will do the same with their 787 in the next few months too.

[LAX_LHR]

Quite a naive comment. It would be an alternative if LHR, LGW and PIK were
not available due to weather etc or emergency. The same has applied to Emirates A380 for a couple of years now


Yes of course if all your alternates luck out then you put It down wherever you can, and even more so in an extreme emergency scenario.
Much like Emirates will use other alternates for the A380 (LHR/LGW/STN) before BHX. The one time the EK17 diverted it went to LHR and during the snow the LHR A380 flight went to MAN.

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR

All ready on Forums its the end of July for BHX.

GETONNIT;

BHX is one of only a small number of English Airports that is CAA approved to handle the A380 and the taxiying chart for them is attached on NATS site as is MAN, and probably LGW too.

It also has stands calibrated for A380s on the new pier and 2 remotes that can take them too.

Therefore wouldn't rule out BA using BHX as a diversion field.

Nigel

[crewmeal]

My question is why don't BA use BHX as a diversion airport for longhaul flights? Over the past few of years when there have been problems at LHR/LGW, BA have used every other UK airport plus European points such as AMS/FRA/CDG. Surely if they offloaded pax at these points the extra 'mileage' will cause hassle and stress for those concerned.

[LAX_LHR]

All ready on Forums its the end of July for BHX


Which ones, this is the first one Ive seen that has mentioned it?


BHX is one of only a small number of English Airports that is CAA approved to
handle the A380 and the taxiying chart for them is attached on NATS site as is MAN, and probably LGW too


LGW is definitely ready, as is STN, MAN, PIK and Im assuming MSE due to the A380 effectively being based there for training. I think BHX has the issue of not being fully Code F compliant just yet, with the extra fire cover needed for such aircraft having to be drafted in. Im not sure if its still the case now with the new fire trucks they have brought?

The situation as I understood it last was that the A380 could use BHX, but only with advance notice, but, like I say Ive not checked the updates to see if the new fire equipment has changed that.

[chaps2011]

LAX it`s on the local Birmingham group I`m on

Chaps

[All names taken]

Quote: crewmeal My question is why don't BA use BHX as a diversion airport for longhaul flights? Over the past few of years when there have been problems at LHR/LGW, BA have used every other UK airport plus European points such as AMS/FRA/CDG. Surely if they offloaded pax at these points the extra 'mileage' will cause hassle and stress for those concerned.


Could be because it's a really small airport for handling more than one or two large aircraft.
I've only been there once - diverted in about 2 years ago as it happens and I was surprised at how small an airport BHX actually is

[nigel osborne]

Crew Meal,

BHX regularly used to get BA long haul divs for many years. Last time was about 3 yrs ago.

Know that BA nominated ,and BHX accepted 3 747s last winter on the same day, but the weather improved and they all got into LHR.

Its noticeable that there are far less BA widebodies diverting these days.In the past they would hold for 20 mins then divert, now they are seem to hold for far longer.

Expect thats down to belt tightening and divert costs, which now start at £50,000 a plane.

There are also problems with getting coaches at short notice. Newish EU driving regulations, prevent coach drivers doing more than a certain amount of hours before reasonable breaks. Also due cost coach companies have less spare coaches and crew sitting around.

However agree these are not the only reasons, and BA seem to send the small number they do divert as far as NCL and EDI, so still puzzling.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

All names taken.

BHX has 7 full widebodied stands now on the new International Pier, the end 2 can and have accommodated an A380 using airbridges.

Plus it has a stand on the old Eurohub, and 3 remote stands that can accommadate 777 and 747 and two of these you can get an A380 on.

Add to this the new huge Monarch hangar, almost complete has an apron which can take 2 747-8 /77Ws and the Elmdon apron recently having a 747-400 stand marked out.

So BHX does have a lot of options. A few of those are removed in recent winters as Ryan Air are parking up 8 planes each winter.

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR.

You do make me smile please don't change.

BHX is fully code F designated otherwise the EK couldn't have operated a passenger flt into it on thir A380 !! Also check out the NATS site showing the approved A380 taxiway routes at the airport.

Stand 54C on the new pier is fully marked out for an A380 and has the automated pier tracking system also calibrated for the A380. This is where the EK A380 parked and used the double airbridge.

BHX now has an A380 tug, which Emirates asked for before they chose BHX as one of their A380 alternates.

In relation to Manston, its only being used for training with no passengers and although it has Cat 9 fire cover like the large airports, has no charts for A380s so doubt if it is yet certified for A380 passenger operations.

However you are right that you need a higher fire catergory for emergency flights of A380. BHX like Manston and Prestwick is Catergory 9 , but can be made up to 10 within 30 minutes. That means all but emergency A380 diverts can be handled at BHX and you wouldn't expect BHX to be used for those.

The new fire trucks are not yet in use as crews are still being trained..not sure if they will bring us up to Cat 10 like MAN ?

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

Edit:

I now see you have found what I was trying to say RE: Fire cover. As this may not be code 10 yet, this is what I am trying to say regarding BHX needing advance notice, as they can ship in the extra tenders to bring it to code 10, but is why BHX is not an A380 alternate just yet. Emirates does not designate BHX just yet. Their TATL A380 fleet and LHR flights uses MAN, the MAN flights use LHR and until recently, STN was the back up point for the 2 airports, however with LGW being fully certified now, this may have changed.

My posts were nothing to do about taxiway charts, stands etc, as Im fully aware an A380 has been to BHX and can physically use the airport.

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR

Thanks for the clarifications but still you confuse me.

You say BHX is not an A380 alternate as its only Fire cover Cat 9 but in June you said Prestwick was an A380 alternate.

However Prestwick is also only CAT 9 fire cover ??

Im sure you are only quoting what you have heard from other sources, but if both are Cat 9 then both are either alternates under that remit, or then both are not. :confused:

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

I was under the impression that PIK was fully code 10/F compliant due to it being one of the 2 UK 'hijack' airports, a key Atlantic divert field and regularly seeing the B747-8 amongst others?

[Occams Razor]

The AIP says Prestwick is fire cat 7, with 8 or 9 available at short notice.

While a 380 is fun for the spotters and a wet dream for the BHX PR department, it causes the overall flow of traffic to be much less efficient. I'm not sure a regular service would be a good thing, although that in itself is still a long way away.

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR

Hi,

Prestwicks only fire Cat 7 can be made up to 9 no doubt using the rest of the tenders in the vacinity.

See NATS page below on Prestwick if it loads.

These exchanges of views are great as we are all learning stuff. :)

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-F8025D3776B5F7522A6120CB4E9E0783/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGPK_en_2013-05-30.pdf

The only thing BHX doesn't have are 2nd deck loaders, however neither does STN,LGW or PIK.

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

Nope its all good Nigel, Obviously read the wrong sheets lol.

However, I do wonder if PIK is going to upgrade the equipment as its certainly put itself forward to be an alternate for BA, so, must have been on the basis the equipment is sourced?

Anyway, hopefully clears things up. Obviously things will change in the future, especially with the runway extension that BHX be a priority alternate for BA, I was just trying to point out that as it stands at the moment, its not on the 'priority' list.

On to the Publicity tour, hopefully BA will confirm it all soon. They are quite proud of the A380 and keeping quite tight lipped until plans are confirmed, so the news is likely to come from forums groups of the airports in question where they are less tight lipped about visits than from BA themselves.

The B787 will also be doing a similar tour, but will likely just be to BA stations, especially those the A380 cannot get to.

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR,

Yes think you are right not heard of any plans to put the BA 787 into BHX.

Haven't heard the full sched for the BA 380 tour although think BHX is Mon 29th July.

Just driven past the runway extension site, giant machines now leveling the end of the extension with hard core gravel.

They have just about finished the new A45 dual carriageway loop and dedicated bus lane, however now saying Sept before that is all completed.Supposedly the road opening up before that as they prepare to join current A45 with new loop both ways.

Nigel

[LAX_LHR]

Just driven past the runway extension site, giant machines now leveling the
end of the extension with hard core gravel.


Certainly been a serious amount of money spent on BHX in the past few years, that's for sure!

[splash&dash]

Lack of BA diverts into BHX in recent years.

One reason is that BA no longer have a base at BHX so all the customer service, handling etc is done by a third party which costs more and not the same standard as BAs own brand. In fact there isn't even a Oneworld presence now as its mostly Skyteam and Star Alliance.
STN doesn't either but is Closer to London and has a longer runway which helps a bit when landing a 747 on an unfamiliar airfield in possible challenging weather conditions. But the runway extension will help with that one.

[Guest 112233]

From memory there's a fire station very close to the northern boundary of the airfield.. But I do not know if the fire fighters based there have specialist training.

Perhaps someone better placed technically, than me can answer this ?

OK the physical pavement is being extended at the 33 end by 405 metres ( I remember seeing on a civil engineering site that the physical length of Tarmac/Concrete/Asphalt is actually a bit more than this) and the old 33 threshold is being relocated some distance towards the new extension

This will have the effect of increasing the landing distance available on 33 and also on 15 but not necessary by equal distances, I suspect, based on the formal rules that apply in the definitions applied. [edit: looking up the formal definition of LDA].

Would a 300 metre (for the sake of argument) increase in the LDA really make a big impact on weather the airfield is acceptable as a nominated diversion point for large aircraft, all other things being equal ? For the existing length.

I bet the planners looked at these factors. Can anyone enlighten an interested non expert [me].

CAT III

[nigel osborne]

CAT111NDB,

Well I saw the EK 77W land in driving rain at BHX some months ago and it stopped halfway down the current runway.

However think it might make a very small difference to have a longer runway, with the threshold moved back.

Splash a dash,

good point about the handling agent probably costing more, but when did BA handling close as we used to get 747 and 772 diverts up till 3 years ago, though BA handling had gone well before this, anyone in the know on this ?

BHX have said quite recently that wide bodied divs can be problematic, as they might discrupt there own flights, I did consider this as a possible reason why we get so few now.

However we had an Iberia A330 div from LHR which in the end offloaded passengers so perhaps not.

BA LHR ops were clearly heard on the day of the A320 incident, telling a pilot who requested to go to BHX he should go to Bournemouth instead, and heeded that.

Yet 3 months before were happy to tell 3 BA 747 crews to go to BHX although they managed to get into LHR in the end.

I would really like to know the reasons, puzzling.

Nigel.

[LAX_LHR]

I would really like to know the reasons, puzzling


A lot of it will come down to handling agent acceptance.

If the BHX agents are busy, or have minimum staff due to not being busy, they themselves can refuse the divert.

BHX are usually quite good at being able to accept diverts, but, cost cutting and undercutting the competition amongst handling agents (which is not just a BHX issue by any stretch of the imagination), means that staffing levels are now close to the bare minimum for the scheduled flying programme, which in turn means less diverts as there is no one to handle them effectively.

Obviously the above is pure speculation as we don't know the reasons diverts are refused/not used, but, the above is happening more and more

[Guest 112233]

Yep I forgot that modern break/lift dump systems are a miracle of technology.

thanks

CAT III

[hammerb32]

I am a little puzzled as to why a BA promotional tour is being welcomed to BHX, recognise the publicity for BA but from a BHX point of view surely BA have to be looked at as a competitor? Why allow an airline that is actively trying to attract your passengers down the M40 such a PR opportunity?

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "hammerb32.

Re BA A380 visit;

Quite simple.. publicity.. you can see a BHX now exec saying something along the lines of ;

"BHX is a World capable airport and we are in the process of extending our runway so planes like these,( pointing to the BA A380) can operate regulary".

You and I know they can operate already to places like Dubai, but great publicity at a time BHX is pushing the airport commission to take on a lot of the London traffic.

A really big aircraft will turn heads and spin the PR wheels faster.

Nigel"

The BHX boss deserves an "E" for effort! but he always fails to explain how this solves the problem of lack of capacity at the UK's hub airport.

[OltonPete]

Passenger figures from the CAA with avergage loads from local SBS logs and load factors from seat plans and estimated in some instances.

Most of the sun routes have very high load factors but not great figures from the two new Monarch routes or BMI Regional.

The Gothenburg was the best but only 55% and Billund only averaged 14. Toulouse I am sure would have been better had they not messed with the times.

Dublin added only a couple of thousand pax and dropped 8% on load factor compared to May.

BRUSSELS...........8731 (9158).... 39pax......48%

LARNACA............7538(7978)..... 180 pax...90%

PAPHOS................4354(628).... 156 pax...78%

Copenhagen.........6710 (6310).....75 pax.....71%

Billund.................556 (nil)..........14 pax....28%

Avignon..............539(603)..........54 pax....69%

Bergerac..............534(506).........53 pax....68%

Bordeaux..............1758 (nil)........68 pax...-39%

Brest....................479 (449).......48pax......61%

La Rochelle..........577(512)..........58 pax...66%

Lyon.....................3037 (o)........40 pax.....52%

MONTPELIER .......1922 (2633)....120 pax....64%

NICE.....................6678 (6275)..111 pax....62%

PARIS (CDG).......31046 (31787)....97 pax....80%

Perpignan.............2601(561.......145 pax....76%

Toulouse...............960(nil)..........19 pax....39%

BERLIN (TEGEL).....4845(4538l).....84 pax...68%

DUSSELDORF........16200(14362)..52 pax....58%

FRANKFURT ....... 24345(23772)...103 pax....71%

Hamburg.......... 2977(4184)....... 60 pax.....69%

HANOVER....... 4045 (5196)........70pax.....86%

Munich.............13766(14128)......81 pax.....67%

STUTTGART......3648(3098)........ 41 pax.....52%

GIBRALTAR........3131 (nil)..........120pax.....69%

Heraklion............2507(3201)......157 pax....79%

BUDAPEST...............0(2891).........nil pax....nil

Cork....................6115(6762) .....51 pax....71%

DUBLIN...........44887(42467).......88 pax....60%
...
KNOCK...............2410 (2911)......40 pax.....66%

SHANNON...........2523 (2596)......42pax.....69%

WATERFORD......1600 (1380)........47 pax....60%

BERGAMO............3698(nil) ........142 pax...75%

MILANÂ MXP)....4781 (7372)........80 pax...71% - ZB & BE in 2012

ROME Â (FCO).....9113(9559) ......152 pax..84%

TRIESTE ............2266(1983) ......126 pax...67%

VENICE............5196 (3709).........144 pax..83%

KAUNAS...........3124 (2757).........174 pax....92%

MALTA.............2684()................168 pax...89% -

AMSTERDAM...39496(34156)..........88pax....81%

ISLAMABAD..... 8232(8317) ..........229 pax...65%

BYDGOSZCZ.......4409(4394).........170 pax...90%

GDANSK..........2878 (2996).... ......160 pax....84%

KATOWICE........3812 (4193).........159 pax...84%

KRAKOW,..........2814(nil) ..............156 pax..83%

RZESZOW.........3088(2708)...........172 pax....91%

FARO..............18188(20347)........175 pax...87%

FUNCHAL.........2131 ((nil) ............133 pax...77%

BRATISLAVA....4480(4418).............172 pax...91%

ALICANTE.......26991(32511)..........169 pax..88% -

ALMERIA..........2843 (4121)...........178 pax....83%

BARCELONA..... 15965(3883)...........148 pax....78%

GIRONA.......... ...2662(5683)..........149 pax...78%

IBIZA................13052 (12555).......172 pax...88%

MAHON............. 5563(7191)..........174 pax....83%

MALAGA............27259 (30308) ......179 pax...92%

MURCIA Â ...... ,..5168 (10226)........162 pax...85%

PALMA...............22280 (26622)......166 pax....85%

REUS.....................3685 (4048).......142pax....75%

ARRECIFE............10633 (10979)......177 pax...90%

FUERTEVENTURA..6070(6317)...........179 pax...88%

LASPALMAS..........7568(7413)..........172 pax..88%

TENERIFEÂ (TFS).....14820 (14353) ..176pax..91%

GOTEBORG...........1286(nil)...............27 pax.....55%

Stockholm...........2066(nil)................61 pax... 50% approx

Dubrovnik...... ....3196 (3044)..........114 pax.....80%

Split.....................2748 (nil)..........106 pax.....61%%

ZURICH...............8956(10524).........73 pax......77%

Bodrum..............3645(4177)............152pax....87%

DALAMAN.........9916(9725)........... 164 pax.....87%

ISTANBUL........10857(7904)............126 pax....81%

Ashkhabad........3058(4666)..............90 pax...51%

DUBAI............. 37589(34908)..........313 pax.....75%

Toronto.............1866(2700)............233 pax...90%

NEW YORK (EWR)..9389(8899)...........156 pax..93%..

Pete

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR.

RE BHX and A380S

This taken from the BHX NATS site;

(h) A380 Aircraft Operations:
(i) Operators of A380 aircraft may designate Birmingham as a nominated diversionary aerodrome subject to prior
agreement with the Head of Airfield Operations Tel +44 (0)121-767 7384 and assessment of facilities at Birmingham
by the Airline. The use of Birmingham as an alternate for A380 operations is also subject to UK CAA approval on an
individual airline basis.
(ii) Maximum of 5 A380s can be handled at any time (subject to stand availability).
(iii) Only one A380 can move around the aerodrome at any time. If 2 or more aircraft are handled at the same time, one
must be on stand at all times whilst the other is moving or stationary on Taxiway Tango / Taxilane Uniform
(iv) Follow-me will be provided for all movements.
(v) Departing aircraft must use the CAT III runway holds at all times, irrespective of weather conditions.
(vi) Diverting A380 aircraft will be provided with RFF Category 9 in accordance with UK CAA CAP 168 Chapter 8.


Well the experts say we can have 5 at a time..not sure about that myself ,trying to picture it :eek:


Nigel

[OltonPete]

Very fluid at the moment with many schedule changes.

Aer Lingus

Down to five daily in the week with the nightstop gone at present despite taking good loads out in the morning.

Shannon retimed inbound Tuesday, Friday and Sunday to 12.35 and I assume Knock will appear at three times a week.

Ex Dublin times much better spaced inbound to BHX 07.30, 11.20, 14.40, 17.20 and 18.45 only if the nightstop at BHX was operating as for BHX based business these times are awful with 18.45 is far too early.

Saturday is one A320 and two ATR72's, which is sensible

Cork still showing three flights Monday and Friday.

BMI Regional

It appears Lyon ends with the summer schedules, a good decision if true and hopefully a new route in the offering such as Vienna or Oslo. The rest operate between 5 and six a week.

SAS

The schedule changes seem to happen on a weekly basis with it showing four a week this winter with Thursday the latest day to disappear. Sun afternoon, Tuesday and Wednesday lunch and Friday night with some B717's showing. Still shows as stopping between 20/12 & 1/3/14

CPH - Saturday morning is back for part of the winter and 717's from mid January on the morning service with double A319's showing for summer .

KLM

Changed again back to as it is now but the lunchtime E190 is a F70 and the 738 nightstop not happening to January and then mid Feb when all three 737 services are showing as the 800 series and two 190's so a big increase.

Lufthansa/Germanwings

Frankfurt 4 a day with the early morning inbound stopping for a while in Jan and early Feb - 3 x A320 and 1 x A319.

Munich & DUS no change

Berlin- earlier Monday to Friday aimed no doubt at the German market with Sunday in the afternoon 4U8331 all A319 and no Saturday service

Hamburg - as above but CRJ9 inbound BHX a bit later 10.50 and again Sunday is afternoon.

Swiss - groan both flights F100's with the RJ100 at the weekend

Brussels Airline - similar to now

Turkish - Maintaining 10 a week

United - Six a week until February then 5 a week for a month

Ryanair - Bratislava and Malta now released for the whole winter leaving just BCN bookable until 20 Jan

flybe - Still showing the 8th EDI & GLA for Tue, Wed & Thu

easyjet - Still showing the third BFS Thursday and Friday and the Tuesday GVA

Monarch - I have not noted any significant changes to the winter schedule since GNB was increased to 4 weekly from mid Feb.

Pete

[LAX_LHR]

Nigel,

Thanks for the info.

Pretty much re-inforces what I was saying about needing to give advance notice:


Operators of A380 aircraft may designate Birmingham as a nominated
diversionary aerodrome subject to prior agreement with the Head of Airfield
Operations Tel +44 (0)121-767 7384 and assessment of facilities at
Birmingham by the Airline. The use of Birmingham as an alternate for A380
operations is also subject to UK CAA approval on an individual airline
basis.

[Fairdealfrank]

HEATHRHOOMDON
Anyone fancy a laugh?

Have alook at this:

Could Cardiff Airport form a new UK hub alongside Birmingham and Heathrow? - Wales Online (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/could-cardiff-airport-form-new-5144093)


This is Heathwick writ large: HEATHRHOOMDON (Heathrow, Rhoose, Elmdon).

What are they on? Can I have some (man)?

It is apparently proposed by an "entrepreneur", an "economist" a "transport expert" and a "management consultant" - that says it all!

Why does no one appear to understand how a hub airport works?

[nigel osborne]

LAX -LHR .

Yes, would love to know how much warning they need, which airlines are approved (guess EK) or what happens if the head of operations is on a day off when one wants to divert in :)

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

Olton Pete,

Thanks as always for a good update on the scheds.

Nigel

[compton3bravo]

Many thanks as always Olten. A bit concerned about the Monarch Gib though - been to Gib a few times recently and seems the load factor seems around 50-60 per cent and looking at the prices being offered they seem to be struggling to get reasonable loads.

[ATNotts]

"management consultant"

Consultants (excluding the medical variety) - business people that have failed to run their own companies, so instead tell others how (not) to run their's!

Bit similar to sports coaches - if they were any good they'd be playing!

[OltonPete]

compton3bravo

Yes apart from the first few flights it has been a struggle going by the pax numbers and fares.

I can't say GIB was a "must" in BHX's route portfolio but that is just my opionion and I do see where Monarch's reasoning, as they are well established on the rock. Lets just hope it is just a slow builder and Monarch have patience to stick with it although as a new route it will be getting some assistance at BHX re landing fees etc.

I would imagine the Bordeaux loads are more of a concern as at three times a week in summer that aircraft probably could be making money elsewhere.

The only thing GIB has this winter is the general lack of flights to Southern Spain from BHX.

Pete

[BHX5DME]

Dubai’s Emirates Airline has not ruled out entering the competitive transatlantic market, currently dominated by British Airways and Virgin Atlantic, and offer flights from Dubai to the US via the UK.

Emirates’ UK vice president Laurie Berryman said the Dubai carrier has seen “strong demand” and last year carried 800,000 passengers on its routes in and out of its hubs in the north of England.

“Glasgow is double daily and we upped the aircraft size. Newcastle went from an Airbus to a B777, so we are growing capacity there as well. Birmingham is twice daily, and one of the Manchester flights is an A380, with the other two being B777s,” Berryman was quoted as saying in an interview with trade publication Buying Business Travel.

Emirates in October will launch flights from Dubai to New York via Milan and Berryman hinted, if it could gain regulatory approval, it might not be long before the carrier enters the transatlantic market and offers flights from Dubai to the US via northern England.
“We do hold some rights out of the regions, so I would never say never. One of the things we are keen to say to the Davies Commission [UK Airports Commission], to relieve pressure on the south-east, is why don’t we make all the regional airports completely open skies, so anyone can fly anywhere. Heathrow sits in the south of England, but Manchester has a bigger catchment area in terms of a two-hour drive,” he said in the interview when questioned on the issue.

The transatlantic market is dominated by the likes of UK carriers British Airways and Virgin Atlantic and US players Delta Air Lines and American Airways. Aviation analyst Saj Ahmad, chief analyst at StrategicAero Research, said there is still obvious demand in the market for Emirates to capitalise on.

“With Emirates carrying over 800,000 passengers out of just four UK regional hubs, it is evident that there is more than enough brisk demand to launch direct flights to the USA from cities that the likes of BA do not operate long haul services from and that too would raise the appeal of Emirates.

“Emirates could flood the North Atlantic with swathes of Airbus A380s and 777-300ERs out of places like Birmingham and Manchester, two cities which are bursting with pent up passenger demand, tempered only by the lack of long haul airlines operating there, particularly for Birmingham,” he said, adding that if the Dubai carrier goes through with the plan “British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will be the big losers.”

[chaps2011]

Thought EK had already had problems with Canada

Chaps

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Good old Saj Ahmad... rolleyes:

Try googling "About Saj Ahmad"

The consultant without portfolio.

To what publication should the "article" be attributed BHX5DME ??

[VickersVicount]

Good old condescending Stoneybridge... rolls eyes
Was quoted from a very reputable Middle Eastern business journal
Middle East Business News, Gulf Financial & Industry Events & Information - ArabianBusiness.com (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/)

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Hardly condescending.

His modus operandi is well known and his "articles" are so regularly debunked that he holds little credibility with his remaining peers who pay any attention.

Coming from Abu Dhabi, it is not surprising to find a link to AB dot com, though I couldn't find the article and a search threw nothing up. :confused:

Not sure what your problem was with me asking for a source; it is common courtesy to reference the publication one is quoting. :rolleyes:

[crewmeal]

I believe MAN has the best opportunity for any expansion of this size if it were to come off. EK numbers at BHX numbers have been quite weak compared with other 'northern airports' Expansion hasn't really taken off in the way they hoped. Now AI are coming back I guess EK figures may well be diluted even more.

Talking of AI, with a week to go what's happening about the big Dreamliner arrival? I can't believe it is so quiet. Have the dancers been organised? chapaits made? PK's suit dry cleaned? Someone must have some updates.

[LAX_LHR]

I believe MAN has the best opportunity for any expansion of this size if it
were to come off


Well, the original article (on which the arabianbusiness article is based) certainly leaned more towards MAN, but, there could be a big question mark as to the merits of both articles. All it seems to indicate is that Emirates could operate UK-USA routes, not that it is likely to.


PK's suit dry cleaned?


I think that's guaranteed. Not exactly camera shy is good old PK!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Talking of AI, with a week to go what's happening about the big Dreamliner arrival? I can't believe it is so quiet. Have the dancers been organised? chapaits made? PK's suit dry cleaned? Someone must have some updates."

Only a week? better buy an edible hat sharpish!

[OltonPete]

Monarch

Bordeaux ends in September and I am sure it was originally mid October although still bookable next summer.

Thomson winter 2013/4

I have not really checked this since realising one 738 is staying in place of one of the 757's. However one Sharm has gone leaving just two but the Monday 757 goes to Arrecife which was in the first release but made no sense as it appeared four based.

However two additions from last winter - a Thursday Las Palmas 738 and a first for winter a Friday Marrakech.

Montego Bay I am sure was operating through the winter in the very first release is now short-season but at least Sanford almost gets to December.

Summer 14 - Chania showing in the packages section for Friday

Pete

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal,

Re Air India ,a number of promotional events in Birmingham have taken place in the last few weeks.

Should also mention this week that stand 42C at BHX has been marked out and calibrated for a 787, and 2 APUs required for the type have also been wired in this week.

Air India have been allocated this stand with the reserve being 57C

So looks like its going to happen, well done BHX :)

Nigel

[Planeaddict]

No surprises there.

They've seemingly got some plans for a second runway: Birmingham Airport: £7bn expansion plans announced | Central - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/central/update/2013-07-26/birmingham-airport-7bn-expansion-plans-announced/)

Any recent news about Qatar?

[crewmeal]

These topics have been done to death, move on planeaddict.

[Businesstraveller]

Plans for the future - yes. You'd have thought they wouldn't front the article with a photo that clearly years old however - judging from the presence of BA mainline aircraft, so pre-BA Connect days.

[hec7or]

judging from the presence of BA mainline aircraft, so pre-BA Connect days.

Fail: They're BAe 146s operated by BRA, which became BA Connect.

[crewmeal]

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/222261-emirates-23.html

Those BHX figures don't look encourging. If that is the trend then they will be into a minus when AI start the DEL route

[nigel osborne]

Crewmeal;

Re Emirates ,the devils in the detail.

For starters Glasgow saw a 70% increase in available seats and Newcastle a 54% increase, Manchester and LHR also saw available seat increases.

Not sure about LGW but there figures had been appalling.

BHX latest figures are very encouraging especially as BHX was one of the few that didn't see increase in available seats.

May and June at BHX saw increases of 8% and 14%.

However it will be interesting as you say to see if EK can continue the increases once Air India arrives.

Having said that at least we have Air India when other airports boasting they would get them haven't :) :D

Nigel

[chinapattern]

I’d be inclined to say that Air India's return won’t have that much of a detrimental effect on EK’s loads as primarily they are targeting the BHX-ATQ traffic, although inevitably they’re going to lose some business pax bound for DEL or onwards. I think EK should be more concerned about TK going double daily or indeed the arrival of another competitor.

Having said that, it will be interesting to see how the next twelve months unfold given that when Air India started back in 2005 there was far less competition and certainly much less capacity going east. EK were just x1 daily, PIA was only using the A310 and there was no TK. On top of all that, just look at the huge increase in LHR/MAN-Gulf traffic in the past two years and with BHX sandwiched in the middle it makes one wonder if eventually something has to give somewhere.

Interesting times.

[EGBE0523]

China Pattern -when Air India started back in 2005

I seem to remember AI operating a 707 out of Birmingham back in 80/81 routing Birmingham (BHX) - Moscow (SVO) - Amritsar (ATQ) - Delhi (DEL) - Bombay (BOM).
This was from the old terminal too. Also have a recollection of one aircraft having an engine problem and dumping a quantity of oil over Daventry.