MANCHESTER - 9

[MANFOD]

Bagso, do I take it that was a separate debate on Regional Airports on 15th July for which our local MP, Mike Kane, was congratulated all round on getting it called, from the transport debate reported in Hansard for 10 July. The latter also included some discussion on regional airports in which MAN got a warm endorsement from Sir Alan Haselhurst - a SE MP - but also from Robert Goodwill, Under-Secretary of State for Transport (MP for Scarborough). Ministers usually sit on the fence but he admitted to being a great fan of Manchester Airport and also referred to it's having "exciting plans for further development". Perhaps he knows more than us!

Surprised at Stringer's contribution. He used to be a useful advocate for MAN.

[Ian Brooks]

but Hong Kong is classed as separate from mainland China

Ian

[LAX_LHR]

CA 851 05:50 PEK LGW N 2014S 4
CA 937 17:45 PEK LHR T2 2014S 7
VS 251 17:20 PVG LHR T3 2014S 7
CZ 303 15:25 CAN LHR T4 2014S 7
MU 551 18:40 PVG LHR T4 2014S 4
BA 1168 13:00 PVG LHR T5 2014S 1
BA 38 15:10 PEK LHR T5 2014S 7
BA 88 16:10 CTU LHR T5 2014S 5
BA 168 16:25 PVG LHR T5 2014 S

Which comes to 48 per week
26 between BA/VS
22 between the
Chinese airlines.

Ive actually done some digging on this, and, the number of slots left is actually lower than being quoted here.

Firstly, lets take away the UK slots, the chance of a UK airline operating MAN/BHX/EDI/Wherever to China is slim to none.

We are then left with the Chinese carriers.

MU (China Eastern) currently run at 4 weekly. They are increasing to 6 weekly and hold a 7th slot.

China Southern hold 7 slots

Air China now hold 14 slots

That's 28 slots straight off.

Air China Cargo still hold 2 slots back from the days of serving Manchester, to which cargo is covered in the bilateral, but I suppose if Air China were deadly serious about a MAN flight, probably can transfer the slot back into the passenger division. So that leaves 1 unused slot, which, is pretty much useless for any airline wanting to start a scheduled flight. It does however, until the bilateral is changed, leave no scope for expansion, which, in theory, could put airlines off if they cannot have scope to grow to what they expect.

Therefore, we can safely assume that the bilateral is an issue, and goes some way to explaining why Air China have spent their own money chasing an addendum.

[Skipness One Echo]

Oh dear, an issue? Perhaps? A block? No, Air China could have used the spare capacity to open MAN in the last few years it seems.

Is the bilateral restricted on slots held or flights operated?

[LAX_LHR]

Is the bilateral restricted on slots held or flights operated?


The airline holds the rights, and there is no enforcement to get them used (unless an airline appeals at their non usage). The best example is to research the 1998 decision to award Virgin Atlantic the then 2 weekly rights for PVG flights, that shows how it all works (openly available to the public).

Therefore, yes, it is entirely possible that nothing has stopped Air China opening MAN in the past (maybe holding out for the LHR slots, after all LGW was purely a waiting room), but, on the flip side, if all the rights were held by other carriers, then yes, Air China were effectively blocked.

However, it still does not alter the fact that only 1, 3 at a maximum if the CA cargo rights get transferred, slots are left to operate UK-China flights at this time, ergo, bilaterals are currently an issue at this moment in time, when they are being touted as a non-issue.

[kieb92]

US Airways upgrading PHL to an A330-300 this winter:

US Airways W14 International Operation Changes as of 09AUG14 | Airline Route (http://airlineroute.net/2014/08/09/us-w14update1/)

But Delta seems to have reversed plans for 767-400 - back to a 763

DELTA W14 International Operation Changes as of 09AUG14 | Airline Route (http://airlineroute.net/2014/08/09/dl-w14update2/)

Delta are however upgrading a couple of flights this week to a 764

[Bagso]

I think a few of us are baffled by the Bilateral issue.

Its worth throwing the aims of the Manchester - China Forum into the mix.

Manchester-China Forum (http://www.investinmanchester.com/services/networks/manchester-china-forum/)

This site is "campaigning" for better links, it does not state as far as I can see the lifting of bilateral agreements as a barrier to trade ?

Now it may be that this is an area that the group do not want to highlight preferring a softly softly approach but " as a campaign group" IF its seen as a genuine issue you would think it would be on there would you not ?

Not saying you are wrong Lax (btw) but if an airline had indeed spent a substantial sum to gain access you would hope Charlie Cornish would be plastering this over every media outlet he could lay his hands using the very simple template that GT laid down some years back !

If its is red tape then heads need banging together, if it isn't then the the simple matter is Air China want to serve the Capital not Manchester !

As an aside I noticed that arguably one of the largest brand name in the World is not a part of the group ...neither are some of the largest retail developers, nor are any of the tourist organisations. I appreciate MIDAS is about trade but I would have thought an holistic approach might be a better way forward ?

[BasilBush]

Yes, the bilateral issue is far from clear. It is quite possible that Air China and others are deterred from opening up services to MAN because they don't want to use up the limited frequencies available under the current bilateral when they might be better used to improve the service out of London. That would be a commercial decision for the Chinese carriers.

This gets us back to the renegotiation of the bilateral, where progress appears to be slow. Or perhaps it just takes time to agree these things, especially when dealing with a country such as China which has a different attitude to timescales and will not be rushed.

What we do know is that (if you believe the press releases) the British side wants a thorough liberalisation of the bilateral. If that is indeed the case, then let's consider the possibility that the hold up is on the Chinese side. Perhaps the issue is that China is reluctant to allow a free for all, as this would probably result in BA grabbing even more of the premium traffic on the key routes out of London. It may suit the Chinese to restrict frequencies on the key LHR routes while seeking to cherry pick non-LHR routes that will clearly be of no interest to UK carriers whose hub is at LHR.

This is pure speculation on my part, but if it is true then I can see why the British side would be reluctant to enter into side agreements on regional access, preferring to hold out for a wider liberalisation. And if the Chinese want restrictions lifted out of regional UK airports, then why not offer similar flexibility into Chinese airports other than Beijing (and possibly Shanghai). Sauce for the goose etc.

If the hold up is indeed on the Chinese side then no amount of head banging or intervention from non-entities such as Stringer will have any effect whatsoever. It could actually be counterproductive if it backs the Chinese into a corner, given the importance of 'face' in the Chinese culture.

Just a theory...

[Bagso]

And don't forget Birmingham is "potentially" also in the mix having totally outflanked MAN with its audacious charter programme and first mover advantage !

The CAPA website has quite a bit on China and is certainly worth a ferret

Birmingham Airport shows the value of marketing, to deliver the first UK non-London Chinese flights | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/birmingham-airport-shows-the-value-of-marketing-to-become-the-first-uk-non-london-chinese-flights-159135)

There is "another" article about the Politics in China but cannot find just at min'

On a theme.....

I'm also drawn by this this comment in this article .......

"For their part supporting hotels, attractions, retailers and tour operators are expected to make themselves ‘China-ready’ by providing information in Chinese and adapting their products for the market."

Any initiatives re Hong Cong / Cathay on the horizon ?

Hopefully it spurs MAN out of its perceived malaise ?

[j636]

EY only keeping 1 daily 777 for winter, other still 332 and into S15.

[LAX_LHR]

I'm also drawn by this this comment in this article .......

"For their part supporting hotels, attractions, retailers and tour operators are
expected to make themselves ‘China-ready’ by providing information in Chinese and adapting their products for the market


Manchester Airport is also part of this same China initiative (the China Charter I believe it is called) as BHX.

MAN will apparently have Mandarin signage going up in T2 soon, and Im sure I had read that the Trafford Centre also has Manadarin signage in place already.

[MANFOD]

Found this link from another site, if it copies correctly.

Andrew Cowan is chief operating officer of Manchester Airports Group - men newsdesk - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-opinion/andrew-cowan-chief-operating-officer-7591369?OpenDocument=&ns_mchannel=Social&ns_source=Hootsuite&ns_campaign=MAN-PR-2014)

Andrew Cowan refers to some of the issues re longer queues etc. and quite rightly makes great play of the new CX only direct non-stop schedule service to China outside London. Interestingly, there is no comment about an anticipated service to mainland China being announced shortly, but perhaps we shouldn't read too much into that.

[Suzeman]

MAN will apparently have Mandarin signage going up in T2 soon, and Im sure I had read that the Trafford Centre also has Manadarin signage in place already.

Ah so

Mandarin China Chinese tourists spending more in Manchester shops - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/mandarin-china-chinese-tourists-spending-7043924)

[Skipness One Echo]

Who classes it as separate....:-)
The British and the Chinese do, you just can't wander into Honkers from mainland China........

[LAX_LHR]

I think most will agree that Hong Kong, for all intents and purposes, and aside from a few administerial exceptions, is part of China.

Otherwise its, a bit like saying Jersey is not part of the UK.

[gorter]

I think most will agree that Hong Kong, for all intents and purposes, and aside from a few administerial exceptions, is part of China.

Otherwise its, a bit like saying Jersey is not part of the UK.

Having lived there I can categorically say that Hong Kong definitely is not part of china (yet). So yes it is exactly like Jersey which is definitely not part of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Mac]

LAX LHR
I have to agree with Gorter. HK is not part of China fully, as he says yet. It is important that you look out for these little anomalies as I find the Chinese get very prickly over what they would see as over simplification by an ex colonial power. I also lived there and indeed still keep a company flat, so am aware of HK unique status within China.


Regards
Mr Mac

[LAX_LHR]

Well fair enough.

It seems a population of 97% of mandarin speakers and being at least regonised as a special administrative region in China and being just off the Chinese coast is not enough for some people to consider it Chinese.

Ah well.

[Skipness One Echo]

Otherwise its, a bit like saying Jersey is not part of the UK.
Jersey is categorically not part of the UK, it's a crown dependency like Guernsey, Sark and the Isle of Man.
Hong Kong is a Chinese territory but is seperate administrative region from the mainland. Even the civil registrations remain non numerical, and travel between the two is not straightforward.
It's not a difficult detail to grasp surely? Hong Kong is of course not part of this ******* bilateral which in terms of aviation and geopolitics is a guide.

[pwalhx]

On 1 July 1997, Hong Kong became the first Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China, under the principle of "one country, two systems" (the other, Macau, attained that status in December 1999). It has a different political system from mainland China but it is part of the mainland.

[BasilBush]

And Hong Kong is covered by a separate bilateral than the one for the rest of China.

[pwalhx]

Indeed it is but that is separate from the discussion over whether it was part of China.

[Bagso]

I think we are swishing about in a bit of froth here !

The point is Manchester has to be as pro active encouraging Chinese or Hong Kongers to Manchester as they are sending passengers from the North to the East !

Signage in T2 welcome,
Trafford Centre clearly somebody there is switched on
VisitManchester pamphlet excellent

But quite frankly this is barely scratching the surface and not nearly enough momentum...

One organisation s/b leading this charge and engaging MUFC, Football Museum. Cheshire Oaks, Chatsworth, Beatles Museum
and would you believe Southport/ Llandundo...

The Chinese are absolutely fascinated by our traditional seaside destinations ....

it does not float my boat but IF that is what they want engage NOW!

Little point the airport suggesting the Manchester catchment is 90 minutes wide without providing some guidance to join up the dots !

[Fairdealfrank]

On 1 July 1997, Hong Kong became the first Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China, under the principle of "one country, two systems" (the other, Macau, attained that status in December 1999). It has a different political system from mainland China but it is part of the mainland.



And Hong Kong is covered by a separate bilateral than the one for the rest of China.


Indeed it is but that is separate from the discussion over whether it was part of China.


The two Special Administrative Regions (SAR), Hong Kong and Macau, are run as separate entities from the mainland. As mentioned above it is part of the "one country, two systems" agreements between China PR and the UK/Portugal.

Travel between China mainland and the two SARs and between the two SARs is not classed as domestic, passports are needed.

Perhaps a better analogy is the UK and its self-governing overseas territories (e.g. Bermuda, Cayman Islands, etc.).

[LAX_LHR]

It's not a difficult detail to grasp surely?

Well evidently it is given its clearly part of China, just has its own govering body.
Or is the clue 'special administrative region of China', with special attention to the China bit not quite clear enough?

[Skipness One Echo]

So when you said you blocked me��, that wasn't true either. Look mate you thought Jersey was in the UK so maybe, just maybe you're not the gospel of truth. As has been pointed out to you, Hong Kong is a special case and sits outside the current bilateral, it's not a part of the mainland, has it's own government, civil registrations, de facto flag carrier, residency rules and so forth.

It's a Chinese territory but in terms of what everyone is on about here, set apart and different. As I said, not rocket science. Oh dear me.....


How's that new rumoured long haul from Delta to DTW you promised me? Bookable yet?

[Bagso]

Secret Gatwick dossier to target Heathrow expansion left on train | News | Travel Trade Gazette (http://www.ttgdigital.com/news/secret-gatwick-dossier-to-target-heathrow-expansion-left-on-train/4692373.article)


One can only dream that "Manchester" employed similar strategies. Not in a one to one fight with Heathrow but simply to enhance its own position.

What about ...

"lobbying gold, silver and bronze opinion formers across The North to enhance the Manchester proposition as long haul gateway to The North"

"drawing up a “target’ list of politicians, civil servants, business leaders and environmentalists whose opinion could influence
encouraging them to speak out in favour of Manchester"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe these terms should be on the job spec' of the person employed as "AVIATION MARKETING BUSINESS PARTNER" which ironically appeared at the side sametime ?

"Ultimately, it's about delivering low cost carrier and charter tactical and strategic sales and marketing plans on budget, using multi-channel campaigns via both travel trade and consumer channels""

REALLY ?

What about generating a sales and marketing plan to capture more scheduled long haul passengers ?

....or are we reduced to chasing the family of four off to Palma who need to a) park at the airport , b) spend some money on breakfast, magazines, and
sweets ?

"Developing insight into local catchment areas",

How local is local ?

You cannot possibly have the same approach at Bournemouth and Manchester ?

Manchester supposedly encompasses Barrow to Middlesborough and across to Skegness and all points in between certainly in terms of direct long haul.

That terminology looks very,very "regional" to me at least.

"you'll work alongside CRM, Digital and PR colleagues to provide a fully integrated service that promotes other M.A.G products" I guess that means even more tweets for parking and breakfasts".

Nothing wrong with all this of course but where is the focus on long haul ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe of course there is an Aviation Business Partner for long haul as well ?

Given Flynas, reduction in US services over Winter, absence of some Caribbean routes and seemingly no increase by Rouge perhaps some emphasis on long haul would not go amiss.

[ATNotts]

Bagso

or are we now really just chasing the family of for off to Palma who need to park at the airport , and spend some money on breakfast, magazines, and sweets ?

As an outsider (though by your / Manchester airports definition) almost certainly in the Manchester airport catchment area, I read this thread with interest.

I think in this one line you sum up exactly the job of the airport company which (even with Manchester which skillfully sidestepped government attempts to privatise airports by setting up an arms length "private" offshoot from local goverment) is to maximise it's revenue stream through just about any activity apart from handling aircraft. Hence the enormous shopping malls, rip of charges for parking, trolleys, express security lanes etc etc. this especially since the cheap carriers, headed by Ryanair don't believe it's their job to pay for the services that their aircraft use!

Manchester Airport's management is not there to promote tourism, nor is it there to promote commerce in the Northwest. There are bodies, such as the tourism organisations and chambers of commerce along with politicians that do that. It is there to provide a service to those passengers and cargo that have been attracted by the outside bodies.

It is however there to offer it's wares (the airport and it's facilities) to it's customers (the airlines) so it will primarily be employing sales sales and marketing efforts to these areas - something it does really well in my opinion!

It doesn't matter how often you repeat the same opinions (and the same arguments are recycled day in day out here) since airports are now run as businesses, to make money, rather than as arms of local govenrment this is the way it is. Same as at BHX, NCL, BRS, etc etc.

[Bagso]

ATNotts

Assuming you are in Nottingham , you are by MAGs own figures "IN" the Manchester catchment area.

I think in this one line you sum up exactly the job of the airport company "to maximise it's revenue stream"

Absolutely which bit did you not read that stipulated this ?

Manchester Airport's management is not there to promote tourism, nor is it there to promote commerce in the Northwest. There are bodies, such as the tourism organisations and chambers of commerce along with politicians that do that.


So what you are actually saying is that it should work in isolation, well some evidence suggest it does !

It isn't the total picture granted.... BUT it is fragmented !

The Manchester China Forum has some heavyweight players MAG is definitely leading the charge here, but many tourist organisations by way of example are missing, is that not trade, there membership should be a given, should it not, many of the Norths major hotel chains are also missing !

I could name many many others .....

The India forum last week 40 plus organisations from the NWest but no reference to Manchester Airport actually being there, maybe they were but there profile was hardly prominent....

....maybe we trade with India by using taxi or even train as opposed to plane ?

It is however there to offer it's wares (the airport and it's facilities) to it's customers (the airlines) so it will primarily be employing sales sales and marketing efforts to these areas - something it does really well in my opinion!


IT DOES, I have said as much on numerous occasions !

"It doesn't matter how often you repeat the same opinions ...."

I was referencing the advert by way of strategy, I was merely stating whether this position was all encompassing ?

The focus here is very much on one area as evidenced by this advert, in fairness I did ask whether this is one position specifically aimed at looking after Lo cost / charter?

I then inquired as to whether there is another looking after scheduled.....

It is not regurgitating the same old it is in my view a valid observation based on new information ie an advert stating a very specific strategy !

If the position is looking after one channel then great.

If the focus excludes sched passengers and more specifically long haul it is a legitimate concern !

[LAX_LHR]

Aaaand, once again Skipness takes issue with what I have posted. How original, didn't see that coming at all! :rolleyes:


Look mate you thought Jersey was in the UK


While the terminology I used may have been wrong, my point was its part of the British Isles, and about as British as London, so, generally considered part of Britain. British Pound, domestic flights etc.


It's a Chinese territory but in terms of what everyone is on about here, set
apart and different. As I said, not rocket science. Oh dear me.....


Ive highlighted the first bit, as you finally admitted to what I have been getting at all along. Its a Chinese territory, end of. Like you say, not rocket science so glad you've finally come around.

So when you said you blocked me��, that wasn't true either

I was going to block you but wanted to see if there was any chance of you settling down. Evidently Ive obviously done something to you as you seem to take issue with pretty much anything I post, so, given there is no hope of a civil exchange from you, you are now firmly on the block list.

Have a good day now Mr Skip.

[ATNotts]

Bagso

Assuming you are in Nottingham , you are by MAGs own figures "IN" the Manchester catchment area

I am, and right next to a MAG airport which does diddly squat for the local business community that it serves; instead pampering to the leisure / loco passenger business. In fairness that's probably because BHX serves the greater Midlands better with business services and the legacy carriers have no interest in diluting the market. Does a fantastic job for cargo / integrators too!!! I think also that MAG believes most of the UK north of the M25 to be in their "catchment" area.

Manchester Airport's management is not there to promote tourism, nor is it there to promote commerce in the Northwest. There are bodies, such as the tourism organisations and chambers of commerce along with politicians that do that.

You're right I missed that - we agree there!!!

The India forum last week 40 plus organisations from the NWest but no reference to Manchester Airport actually being there, maybe they were but there profile was hardly prominent....

....maybe we trade with India by using taxi or even train as opposed to plane ?

They didn't need to as BHX will be daily from DEL from November and Manchester / the Northwest is also in the BHX catchment area. We don't need regional airports scrapping between each other for business to that extent.

[All names taken]

Good luck to Brum with Delhi and all that but as someone who travels to India 4/5 times a year, I will continue to use Emirates or Etihad, mainly because I go to places in India that aren't Delhi (mainly Bangalore but Chennai too).
In my opinion MAN to India is better served than BHX to India because of the seemingly endless connections to this huge country through multiple daily flights.

I visit Dhaka occasionally too but even when they offered flights from MAN there is no way I would have used them - it never even entered my mind - again EK,QR etc

[ATNotts]

All names taken

Good luck to Brum with Delhi and all that but as someone who travels to India 4/5 times a year, I will continue to use Emirates or Etihad, mainly because I go to places in India that aren't Delhi (mainly Bangalore but Chennai too).
In my opinion MAN to India is better served than BHX to India because of the seemingly endless connections to this huge country through multiple daily flights.

That is absolutely your prerogative, but on that basis bagso's comment regarding India is unfounded, since nobody wants to travel direct. It would seem also that there would no requirement for any direct services to elsewhere in Asia / Australasia as people would rather use a connecting service.

Somehow I fear that is not true!

[MANFOD]

flybe:

"REGIONAL airline Flybe has announced a new daily year-round route from Manchester to Amsterdam.The new service to Schipol airport will begin on October 26. One way fares, including taxes and other charges start at £39.99.The airline will operate daily flights between Manchester and Amsterdam using 88-seat Embraer 175 jet aircraft. Monday to Friday flights will depart from Manchester at 1340 arriving at Amsterdam at 1615".

As someone who has been disappointed with the lack of growth by flybe to Europe from MAN, I have to admit to being more than surprised by this announcement and particularly the choice of route, considering we already have numerous flights by KLM and U2. There are still a number of destination voids that perhaps could be better filled. Still, we can only wish them well and their commitment is welcome.

[pabely]

I think they will need more than good wishes on the AMS route if this is only via Flybe, don't they codeshare with AF/KLM group or maybe that is what they have in mind with possible strong 1 stop routing currently?

[MANFOD]

LHR & LGW have posted record July figures with the latter up 6% on last July but LHR up a more modest 0.6% from memory.

Looks like we may find out MAN's results from the provisional CAA stats. as still nothing on their web site.

[Armodeen]

Pabely

They certainly codeshare with AF on the CDG route, so given that AFKLM are one big happy family I would expect a codeshare with KLM alongside a frequency reduction on KLM metal.

That said I have some Emirates miles expiring soon so this seems like a good opportunity to redeem them on easyjet and fly the other leg on this new service to AMS :D

[JC25]

KLM and Flybe code sharing comes up occasionally and as I understand it, KLM have an agreement that with one or more of their unions that they will code share on no more than two routes to each country (presumably to protect jobs at KLM).

Currently KLM and Flybe code share on SOU-AMS and INV-AMS so unless something changes, I'd be surprised to see them code share with Flybe to MAN.

Flybe operate to AMS from BHX and do not cooperate with KLM.

Pity really that the arrangement which works well with Air France cannot be extended to KLM.

[rutankrd]

Flybe operate to AMS from BHX and do not cooperate with KLM.

Pity really that the arrangement which works well with Air France cannot be extended to KLM.


Why ex pence on the pound codeshares are just not worth the effort !

The AF codeshare is rather deeper includes Flybe offering a range (through expensive) of tickets beyond Paris around Europe and what more important is a profit sharing venture.

[Curious Pax]

Pity really that the arrangement which works well with Air France cannot be extended to KLM.

It might work well for the 2 airlines, but since it was introduced it has led to very expensive MAN-CDG flights, so not so good for the punters. It is rare that the 2 early morning departures aren't ridculously expensive.

[All names taken]

There are two good reasons why the AF/BE arrangement is a bad thing:

1. It's basically a cartel rather than competition ie there is no competition on the MAN-CDG route. That's why fares are high.

2. It's mis-selling ie paying for a higher quality product and receiving an inferior one instead. You pay for an Air France Business Class ticket from MAN - CDG - XXX and you will only get business class on the CDG-XXX portion of the flight if you are unlucky enough to be on an AF code share operated by BE.

This happened to me once last year on a returning trip when after a long 11 hour AF flight, I ended up completing my journey on a crop duster surrounded by the cliche Disney family complete with screaming brats kicking you in the back. Yet my boarding pass still (rather pathetically) said 'Business Class' in big letters across the top. Personally I think that's fraud.
Result: AF now are on my 'avoid list'. KL will go the same way if they out-source their flying to BE.

[LAX_LHR]

there is no competition on the MAN-CDG route. That's why fares are high


While not a huge amount of competition, Jet2 do run MAN-CDG too.

[Bagso]

ATNotts

This from your competition down the road !

“Birmingham’s profile is growing considerably on the international stage with a significant increase in visitor numbers and influential global publications such as The Times of India and China Daily highlighting the city’s leisure offer. It is clear that we are becoming an attractive holiday and business destination to people in India"

If you read the full article on the BHX thread the airport are actively involved in this excellent initiative !

Does your view remain the same ?

ie The airport is there simply to provide handling !

Its no secret that my view is that BHX has limitations...... but my goodness "at least" they are trying !

Times Of India, China Daily good grief, the output of some airports is limited to the stellar reach of The Manchester Evening News .......

Maybe they are using Sina Weibo and they haven't told us ?

All the Universities in The North are, and somewhat ironically offer Chinese students masses of information about getting to their respective Cities from Manchester Airport, but no the airport itself remains steadfast in terms of output !

Meanwhile we still wait with bated breath for latest figures !

[Ian Brooks]

Manchester pax figures up by 6% for July
News / July passenger numbers up 6% at Manchester THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/656057-july-passenger-numbers-up-6-at-manchester.html?news_section=4148)
MANCHESTER Airport remains on course for its best-ever year for passenger numbers after a 6% hike in July.

More than 2.4 million people departed from the airport on holiday or on business during the month.

The 6% increase on the same month in 2013 takes the rolling annual total up to 21.36m, putting Manchester, the third busiest airport in the country after Heathrow and Gatwick, on target to achieve its busiest-ever summer since 2007 and surpass its peak of 22 million within the next year.

Ken O’Toole, chief commercial officer at MAG, the parent company of Manchester, Stansted, East Midlands and Bournemouth airports, said: "We are on a path of sustained growth in passenger numbers and are encouraged by what’s in the pipeline. New operators and new routes contribute to this, as does increased consumer confidence in the UK’s economic recovery.

"Customer experience remains an area of focus at Manchester and we continue to look at ways of improving the operation at Manchester, for the benefit of all of our users. We know there are still opportunities out there and we expect that as public transport access to the airport improves further with the additional rail and Metrolink options, that more business and leisure travellers will see Manchester as the most natural fit for their travel needs.

"We continue to raise awareness of what’s on offer here across the North of England with successful marketing campaigns such as ‘Fly Manchester’."

During July, easyJet announced it would introduce a new flight to Madeira from Manchester Airport. The new route to Funchal on Madeira will launch in February 2015. Funchal is easyJet’s 35th destination from Manchester Airport where the airline now employs over 320 staff and bases eight permanent aircraft at the site.

Corsican Places also celebrated the start of its new Manchester holiday service to Figari in Southern Corsica on July 13. The new route, with airline Flybe, adds to the tour operator’s charter programme which also includes a Manchester flight service into Calvi in the north of the island with the same airline.

It wasn't all good news though as Saudia Arabian airline Flynas axed its Jeddah to Manchester service after just three months.

[MANFOD]

Well done Ian - I was assuming the results would appear on the MAN web site first or we might have to wait for the the CAA figures.

Must admit, it's better than I expected and good to see Ken O'Toole sounding an upbeat note - "sustained growth" and "what's in the pipeline".

[ATNotts]

Bagso

I have (eventually) read the whole of the posting, which looks as though it's a direct lift from a typical piece of PR man's blurb - and do they write some rubbish sometimes!

I think that for "partnering" one should read actively trying to get airlines to serve markets (directly) that the tourism and business promotion organisations such as the Chambers of Commerce and the Tourism bodies are targeting. I still firmly believe that the airport works to get the airlines in; and the others the bums to put on the airline's seats. However this is very much a "chicken and egg" situation.

All this work that is done in the West Midlands has lead to some "great heroic failures" in the area of the Indian subcontinent - with questionable local travel agents doing deals with questionable airlines offering services with very limited longevity in the past!!

[Busbar]

Hi!

I have been trying to find out how you get to the 23L/05R side of the airport to view aircraft. There are lots of videos on YouTube that have been filmed from that side so I was wondering if anyone can tell me how you get onto the embankment there? Been trying to take some close up pics of the aircraft for ages and don't want to upset any of the locals by trespassing!

Any info greatly appreciated.

Thanks! :ok:

[Ian Brooks]

Are you coming by car/bike?
if so take Styal Road from Heald Green past the airport turn and then the next right about 3/4 mile this road then meanders until the airport boundary fence near the fire training ground after about half a mile, before road takes a left turn heading towards Styal theare some parking spaces,park there and cross road and go through big gate on right following the old road as far as it goes then follow footpath along side of fence
as the parth starts to dip down with a left turn you will se a gate
with path that then takes you upto the mound with amazing views.
hope this is clear if not pm me and I will try and help
Be warned you will be quite a way from your car so make sure you have all you need.

[Busbar]

Yes I know exactly where you mean Ian. Thanks for your reply, greatly appreciated.

[kieb92]

Monarch Airlines have pulled EMA as a base for next summer. In answer to some questions about their schedule:

From MON website-

"Through a review of its network strategy, the Airline is focussing on offering customers greater flight frequency and more sociable departure times to short-haul European destinations from its main UK bases. These changes are already reflected in Monarch’s summer 2015 schedule, much of which is already on sale. The Airline expects to add more flights to its programme for next summer in the coming months."

It seems that the schedule released is not the full schedule for next summer. With the EMA base closure, that does leave 2 aircraft free which may transfer to BHX/LGW/LTN. I have a feeling LBA may follow with that base closure rumoured so MAN may see them 2 aircraft based at LBA currently for next summer? All speculation of course. They also have 2 new A321 for next summer and the 3 757's leaving at the end of this summer.

[KelvinD]

Busbar,
Depends on where you are coming from and which way the winds are on the day.
For a fairly decent guide (I would say that; I wrote it!) go to the pinkfroot web site. From the menu at the top of the page, click on Spotting, then Plane spotting. Choose Manchester and away you go, complete with Google Earth locations etc.
I say it depends on which way the wind is as, in the case of an easterly wind, you might want to watch the landings at the western end of 05R.
I will PM a direct link to the relevant page.
Oops! No I won't. Can't!

[GavinC]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data_prov/201407/July_2014_Provisional_Airport_Statistics.pdf

[Bagso]

Whilst AGAIN the airport are slapping each other on the back suggesting growth is down to #flyManchester could the simple fact be that the majority of that growth is down to nothing more than a switch of a few flights from Liverpool by RYR

Liverpool down 7% !

[North West]

But LPL is 7% lower on a base of 400k and MAN is 6% up on 2.26m. Combined, that is growth of 111k passengers and 4%. Put another way, MAN grew by 141k passengers and LPL lost just 30k.

[LAX_LHR]

#flyManchester could the simple fact be that the majority of that growth is down to nothing more than a switch of a few flights from Liverpool by RYR

Which means the #flymanchester campaign is actually working, as its aim is to increase passenger throughput from all areas of the 2 hour catchment, which, includes Liverpool.

However, as explained by northwest, the decline at LPL only benefits MAN in a small way compared to actual growth.

[Bagso]

Well cearly hence the caveat "majority".......

I believe there was some mainstream advertising in South Yorkshire but can anybody actually define the #flymanchester campaign ?

If the campaign was targeted at specific routes eg Riyadh , Charlotte ? Maybe we could then specifically identify the benefits of said campaign and say it was a great success but in the absence of a more scientific data how do we determine it's a swap from Liverpool, a general improvement in the economy or indeed this campaign.

For the record I have seen and heard nothing on Merseyside.

[AndyH52]

"Murkeyside". Really Bagso? Is there any need for that?

[IB4138]

....and just what is wrong with a quoting a pseudo name from Private Eye?

[Monty Gordo]

Plenty, for a start this is a rumour forum not a satirical magazine.

[Bagso]

Adverts in South Yorkshire and The Midlands are to be applauded as clearly Manchester relies rightly or wrongly on the catchment of other airports unable to sustain these services.

Which brings us neatly of course to Scotland !

Any thoughts on the effect of next months vote with reference specifically to Manchester !

If Yes our domestic flights become International ones !
Imposition of border controls !
A new bi lateral with Scotland !
APD !
Manchester Airspace controlled by a "Foreign Country"

Are there any other changes ?

Does Manchester have a strategy in terms of the effect of a Scotland vote ..... yes or no ?

There is a comment by the Scottish Independence party that they wish to reduce the reliance/dependence on flights to England notably Heathrow but presumably that may also effect Manchester ?

As an aside incredible that to a Man (and Woman) all the Scottish MPs do not want to use other hubs and want many more direct flights, whilst they may be deluded contrast that with the views of OUR own local MPs ! (.....yes you Mr Brady)


(Odd also that Davies still sees a 3rd Runway as key to domestic connectivity, I wonder how much of that connectivity is due to be allocated to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Inverness).


Trying to "unpick" this either way and asses its effects will be entertaining.

Even if there is a no vote there seems to be a swathe of opinion suggesting a raft of legislation will move North in order to appease.

If APD is among that legislation many MPs and political commentators have suggested they (Scotland) will immediately reduce by 50% and then scrap it !

The reality of office may change things of course but another sqeeze ?


PS apologies if a light hearted quote from Private Eye upset those of a sensitive nature I do of course apologies unreservedly, a retraction has duly been made, let us also not give any organisation on here the oxygen of publicity, even if it is as esteemed as .............. !

[Logohu]

According to another forum the mysterious new longhaul route for next summer has now been postponed indefinitely "due to shortage of aircraft". Apparently the route was to have been Delta to Detroit, as some on here had predicted.

Delta has decided instead that it can make more profit by retiring four 747-400s earlier than planned from this autumn. Therefore a number of 767/777 frames are being redeployed from North Atlantic to Pacific routes to replace those 747s on services to Japan and the Far East.

[MANFOD]

Re DL to DTW, it's really no surprise although I do accept, unlike a certain poster, that it was planned to happen. What is unfortunate in these situations is that a retraction of a rumour is not always made as soon as it could be or without prompting.

Well, according to comments by a senior executive in a recent article, MAN is in a period of sustained growth based not just on what's happened but also on what's in the pipeline. Whether that's true of longhaul for next summer is looking doubtful at this stage, and in terms of TATL, this winter is disappointing. At least there is CX to improve the picture.

[GrahamK]

Bagso, with reference to the Scottish referendum, I think you will find that Newcastle will be much more badly hit than Manchester. Scottish folk travel down to Manchester because a) MAN flights are so much cheaper that the cost of travelling makes no difference and b) direct flights are not available. B is becoming less and less of an issue with the additional flights being added at EDI and GLA.

[MANFOD]

re Scottish referendum:

"is becoming less and less of an issue with the additional flights being added at EDI and GLA"

Quite. And if this trend continues, there is a slight squeeze on MAN with less transferring passengers. However, if APD were abolished in Scotland and led to cheaper fares for Scottish flights, the risk surely is that pax from the North of England who would normally use MAN for longhaul might be attracted to go in the other direction. It would be similar to the BFS/DUB situation, wouldn't it, with the possibility at least that hitherto profitable routes could become marginal and marginal services no longer viable. I'm not saying this would happen but it's not an impossible scenario.

[Bagso]

Horses for courses Graham.....

Family of four off to Australia

"massive hit on invoice Or a 3.5 hour trip to EDI"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure like me Mr MANFOD you wait with bated breath to know what is actually "IN" that pipeline, at least we have Funchal !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

see below review of the Indian Conference at OT last week.

Interesting facts and figures for those who study this sort of thing

7.2m people live within 50miles of Manchester, thats large than some countries (Scotland ? cough )

http://origin.misc.pagesuite.com/pdfdownload/6a365961-d73a-4d20-9582-01b99e462927.pdf

[GrahamK]

MANFOD, agreed, but I think that with the MAN catchment, then thingfs would probably be ok. NCL is very likely to be the biggest loser, unless APD was abolished for long haul in the NE England - which would be unlikely.

[MANFOD]

Re Conference on India:

Apologies if I've missed it Bagso, but the only reference to the airport I spotted was in that facts summary.

"It has an international airport with more than 200 direct flight destinations"

Was there any mention of the need/desire for direct flights to India?

Of course, it may be that MAN feel that the loss of pax to India from the direct service from BHX is less than it would do harm to the MEB3 and perhaps other carriers such as LH at MAN through loss of transfer pax if we had our own direct flights, although I'm not convinced by that argument. (you could argue the same about Hong Kong). And as others have indicated, MAN's opportunities lie in a different part of that huge country than BHX. Surely, a direct service would attract new passengers for the airport so I'm surprised if the need wasn't emphasised - but maybe you're not surprised Bagso?

GrahamK, apologies for not identifying you with my earlier quote and thanks for your reply. You may well be right about NCL, particularly as regards its EK flight.

[MANFOD]

Egyptair

Continuing the gloomy theme, I thought someone had suggested that MS flights were back on for this winter. I'm aware of the temporary licence nonsense whereby they were only reinstated very late for last winter, but do we know for sure whether the route had been dropped completely, suspended for the winter or still awaiting renewal of the temporary licence? They are not showing on the web site if you put dates in for Nov./ Dec or next summer.

[Logohu]

MANFOD - Egyptair flights for the Winter are still showing in our booking system at work, albeit all dates are still closed for sale. So maybe they are still waiting for approval.

I don't know what the bilateral issue is, but this delay in sales every season is no doubt causing potential passengers to go elsewhere - full marks to MS for hanging in as long as they have. It seems a little strange that here we have an airline that actually wants to offer service to a UK airport other than LHR, yet they are made to jump through these hoops each season.

[Bagso]

MS

...so why is the account manager not onto the MEN claiming foul play OR onto the local MP asking for immediate representation with whoever is responsible in Whitehall.

Play the wounded party....!

Blame bias in the South.... even it's not true !

Appeal to the Chancellor !

Give the papers a story and things will happen.

Sorry there are times when you have to play a bit cute !

Yet again total inertia.

Is there an arrogance that as one airline goes it doesn't matter as another will come along ?

There appears on the surface to be no desire, passion or will to get the job done.

[eye2eye5]

Bagso

I don't know why United appointed Louis van Gaal as manager. They have overlooked the most passionate, committed Mancunian on the planet in yourself! Your diatribes drip desire. If you don't get the airport marketing head's job then there is no justice in the world.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Hi!

I have been trying to find out how you get to the 23L/05R side of the airport to view aircraft. There are lots of videos on YouTube that have been filmed from that side so I was wondering if anyone can tell me how you get onto the embankment there? Been trying to take some close up pics of the aircraft for ages and don't want to upset any of the locals by trespassing!

Any info greatly appreciated.

Thanks! If yoi want ti landings on 23R stick into The Tatton Arms carpark, great views there, and if you brave enough, you can walk dow Ringway Road towards the DMZ (Wythenshawe) and be right at the threshold of 23R

[Armodeen]

MS need to hurry it up, I am in the market for flights to Cairo in November but I can't wait forever to book.. Another couple of weeks and it'll be BA via LHR again.

This must be costing them a fortune in lost business?!

[kieb92]

New Thomas Cook route - Varna:

TCX2182 1540-2110 2210-2350 WED

Interestingly, this has appeared in the drop down TCX menu for several months as has Seville, Verona and LAX! Lets hope for the other three!

[Bagso]

MAG Twittersphere appears to be undergoing a seachange with more emphasis on new routes destinations etc and a "call to arms" in terms of RT !

Infact notwithstanding "CrocodileJoe" appearing at the AVP ......:ok:

Excellent News !

The ThomasCook and Miami flights appeared few days back with a link and the new FlyBe to AMS

They now have 125K followers so even if only 20% are genuine that is at least 25,000 punters who are now aware hopefully they may pass on through their accounts or word of mouth !

(Completely missed Facebook of course which underlines the random nature of circulation but hey ....small acorns )

[Skipness One Echo]

Bagso how do you measure success via twitter? Beyond followers and likes which only a naive would try and monetise, how do you attribute any gains to the bottom line to social meeja. I only ask as no one serious thinks you can.

You have no causal link most of the time to seperate it out from concurrent above and below the line activity. Thoughts?

[Bagso]

Skippy see Pm

[Bagso]

Skippy

As Mickeyman is not interested in your question or my answer I have deleted response and will Pm you.

Hopefully MM can fill the void with lots of juicy rumours or maybe some comprehensive answers on retaining what we have....

"Is the desperation of spotters for new services replicated on other Airport forums or is it just this Manchester thread"

Well that's a new one and somewhat cavalier attitude, clearly losing a number of routes or reduction of frequency does not actually matter !

[MANFOD]

"Is the desperation of spotters for new services replicated on other Airport forums or is it just this Manchester thread"

Rather patronising if I may say so, MM.

Some of us appreciate new services if they create jobs in the area, attract new businesses and increase prosperity for the wider region. And yes, dare I say it, because we have pride in our local airport and want to see it flourish. Personally, while aircraft types are of some interest, registrations are not, but I don't see why those who regard themselves as 'spotters' at MAN should be mocked.

If you took the trouble to read other forums, you might just notice that those on GLA, EDI, BHX, LTN & STN threads for example are also very interested in new services.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Skipness - Whilst accepting your general point that the impact of social media-based marketing is difficult to reliably measure / quantify, does it necessarily follow that such marketing initiatives should therefore never be attempted at all? Social media-based campaigns offer very low-cost access to large sections of the public (who by registering have actively expressed interest in the product). Whilst positive results remain difficult to quantify with accuracy, it is clear that returns on investment DO exist. I suggest that those benefits justify carefully targeted promotions backed by a modest initial budget. After all, if UK-industry becomes 100% risk-averse and never pursues any strategy which cannot be costed in advance down to the last penny the economy is doomed indeed. I know you are an analyst, but seriously … just how accurate do you think financial forecasting is generally (never mind simply in this narrow area)? I contend that the difficulty in quantifying risk-return does not constitute justification for permanent inaction and a policy of institutionalised stagnation.

MM - If discussion of new air services and airport marketing issues are of no interest to you, may I suggest that the AA&R Forum may not be the place for you? Google a subject which is to your liking and the digital universe is yours to enjoy!

[easyflyer83]

To be fair, and I mean this with up most respect, it has been like listening to a broken record at times. The song may well be damn good and the lyrics true but once the record breaks, you just have to switch it off.

[Skipness One Echo]

Shed it's not clear social media has much return on most investment in the main. When you speak directly to the people responsible and look at most of their numbers they're plucked from thin air and plopped on sand. This is partly why many managers are reluctant to assign substantial budget much of the time. It looks pretty and generates talk and likes but when you're being grilled by senior management as to what they're ££££s bought and you can't explain in terms of uplift against natural behaviour and show a statistically significant change in customer behaviour, you don't get more money.

It's great in theory, just almost impossible to track the changes you need. Anyhoo it's worth googling, back to more interesting things.


*sorry*

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Just a brief comeback on that one … we're not proposing a "substantial budget" in the case of MAN. A decent social media presence can be maintained for MAN using existing resources / staff. The airport already has social media presence … we're just urging greater emphasis on promotion of destination awareness alongside the customary fayre of car parking deals and meal vouchers. Encouragingly, there does appear to be early signs of a shift in that direction.

[Bagso]

As per my PM Skippy.

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that postings on social media are prohibitive ?

The only cost is time and alocating an employee !

You would need a marketing budget for traditional advertising roadshows, exhibitions, etc but twitter/Facebook ..hardly ! That's why everybody else is doing it !

Good God man we don't need meetings, budget reviews , ROI analysis , quite frankly a YTS could implement this 1 morning a week !

Maybe a few of us are hung up on this because we are old enough to have seen a few airlines come and sadly go.

When you see Dublin "thrashing" the net you cannot help but think why on Earth is Manchester not executing something similar.

And yes it may be same old but if the powers that be are readng this....better that that than bemoaning another lost opportunity !

[Skipness One Echo]

Dublin has a based network carrier, that's pretty much the driver. MAN has about the same US carrier presence but lacks a home champion as you well know :) MAN also does way better going East and has much more EU legacy options.
Facebook and Twitter are peripheral issues to all of that!

[GavinC]

The first test trams arrived at MAN last night. The passenger serving trams should be there before the year is out.

[Suzeman]

Picture here

https://twitter.com/OfficialTfGM/status/501648318968365056/photo/1

[MClayton]

Before the united/ continental merge did continental oporate a 777 into mancheter ? Also what
flights did those airlines oporate into manchester back then ?

[Logohu]

Continental originally started MAN-EWR flights with DC-10s, which over time evolved into a daily B777 service. Later still this was changed to a twice-daily B757.

Sometime after the merger with UA one of the twice daily EWR flights was rerouted to IAD.

I'm pretty sure UA never operated their own flights from MAN prior to the merger with Continental. However UA did code share on BMI's daily A330 services to IAD and ORD when they were operating.

[Bagso]

MAG boosts regional economies by £4bn - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/mag-boosts-regional-economies-4bn-7639533)

[MClayton]

Cheers logohu

[Bagso]

But following on from the M E N good news story......

Passengers landing at Manchester Airport facing long queues at border control - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/passengers-landing-manchester-airport-facing-7641907)

A comment by the airport placing this very FIRMLY at the door of The Home Office would have been welcomed although I guess by keeping stum maybe they are hoping to stay out of the flak.

I suspect phone calls would have been made if this was Heathrow !

[FRatSTN]

New route to Tunisia (Enfidha) from 24 May 2015, 2x weekly.

[pwalhx]

350 people I have been greeted by queues of far more than that around the world. However agree that someone needs to have a word with the Border agency.

[All names taken]

Bagso Quote: I suspect phone calls would have been made if this was Heathrow !

Yawn:zzz:

It's like that at Heathrow (and other big airports in other countries) plenty of times

[LAX_LHR]

Have people really written to the MEN about 'horrendous queues of 350 people'?!?

While this was T3, they do realise that the A380 alone holds 517 people in one go?

Christ, 350 people isnt even 2xRyanair worth of passengers? Were they expecting to be the only aircraft to touch down in rush hour???

[MANFOD]

Can someone please confirm how many desks at immigration there are in T3 when fully staffed? And how many of those would typically be allocated to EU pax? I agree, 350 doesn't sound all that many and they reckoned EU pax were being cleared in 35 minutes. Not great but by today's standards, not disastrous.

It's a few years since I arrived there but I gather the current building structure prohibits any easy expansion even if UKBA could provide staff. Is that right?

[Bagso]

350 people is immaterial and actually neither here nor there.....

read the headline

Passengers landing at Manchester Airport facing long queues at border control

It does not actually state it here which is sloppy journalism but the original twitter feed/headline it was attached to suggested delays of over 2 hours !

"Passengers wait over 2 hours at Manchester Airport"

THAT is the key story ......

[pwalhx]

And there are probably similar stories in local papers around the country, I have waited more than 2 hours at Heathrow and Liverpool for example as well as airports overseas.

A headline of ' I was through immigration at Manchester in 5 - 10 minutes' isn't of interest to the newspapers, and on both recent occasions I have used Manchester the above is true.

Like the recent stories of queues through security the reality is the majority of people will either take no notice or forget it very quickly.

The MEN seems to have a vendetta against transport in general, it's ability to pounce on Metrolink at the least problem is amazing, although being fair they have also done the occasional positive on that such as the first test tram at the airport.

[All names taken]

My most recent experiences of arriving at T1 and T2 have been pretty reasonable considering the amount of traffic going through the place at the moment.

The story is more of a T3 issue by the sound of it - the problems there are well known by frequent travelers - I, for example avoid using it for all but domestic flights for the very reason that it can be hopeless even when 2 planes arrive at the same time. The queues come from both sides of the pier and no-one knows where the end of the queue is. I have heard some pretty choice language from people who think others are pushing in. I wouldn't be surprised if one day, it gets ugly - I've seen it get close.

T3 is physically inadequate for what it now handles.

[pwalhx]

Lets be honest the airport is aware of T3's inadequacies and are planning it's destruction.

[LN-KGL]

We are inbound tomorrow, to a different terminal and we are schuled to land at off peak. I'll let you know if we experience delays on our arrival or more correct how much time spent at each step until we are in the car.

[GavinC]

Speaking of people moaning...


Couple say honeymoon was ruined by 'scary' landing - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/couple-say-honeymoon-ruined-scary-7646134)

[gsky]

MEN... "a loud shudder"

What is that ??

Pathetic people and pathetic reporting !

[LAX_LHR]

Must be a slow news day and by taking it to the media, this couple were obviously on the hunt for an easy payout.

[Logohu]

Ah yes, compensation culture is alive and well. They can't be regular flyers if they never experienced a go around before.
Come to think of it, if they don't like going up or down with a loud shudder it couldn't have been much of a honeymoon anyway ;)

Hopefully they'll keep their promise of never flying again and give the airlines and the airport a break....

[tattbenj]

I don't know why the airport were saying the A380 wasn't on the runway. I was on the A380 when it aborted it's approach and we definitely WERE crossing the runway when the Jet2 aborted it's approach, we were about half way across the runway when it aborted it

[Bagso]

I would pay to have a go round :ok:

Meanwhile its almost August bank holiday and so of course ......

Airport set for ....blah blah blah

Manchester airport set for 340k passengers in great Bank Holiday getaway - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-set-340k-passengers-7650874)

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MANCHESTER MORNING HOOT **EXCLUSIVE**

Couple from Royston Veasy say dream trip to the Trafford Centre ruined by 'scary' halt at traffic lights set to red!


Special Correspondent CLOEY CLUELESS reports


Two grasping chavs say their dream shopping-trip was ruined by a 'scary' halt at red traffic lights yesterday.

Bessie Barmpot and her partner Ivan Eddake were returning from their dream trip to the Trafford Centre when they say their Cab2 taxi slowed to a halt at red traffic lights just before a busy junction.

Barmpot and Eddake waited for an explanation over the manoeuvre - called 'stopping at traffic lights' - which the driver blamed on a truck crossing the junction.

The City Council has told the 'Morning Hoot' that the truck was crossing the junction and that this is a 'common procedure' when traffic lights are set to green for crossing vehicles.

But the couple, who are regular taxi customers, say it left them terrified and mystified.

Barmpot, a freelance tatooist from Royston Veasy, said: "We were about 200ft from the red traffic lights when the engine idled and the taxi drew to a halt."

There were loud gasps from the rear seat as no information was given until the traffic lights turned green. "We didn't know what was going on - it felt urgent and terrifying!", wailed Barmpot.

Cabbie Henry Muggleton-Spoffin of Cab2 explained: "The taxi had stopped at red traffic lights whilst a truck crossed our path. It would have been unwise to speed through ahead of it on amber." Muggleton-Spoffin confirmed that his smart red-and-silver liveried 'Cab2Salford' taxi was undamaged following the "routine" traffic light stop.

Barmpot added: "I'm not a nervous passenger but this was frightening. I was in floods and floods of tears! I'm so angry and frustrated that we haven't had a proper explanation. When we rang Cab2 they said that stopping at red traffic lights is commonplace. If this is commonplace I'll never take a taxi again! BOOHOO!"

Eddake, 90, a beer taster, added: "All we wanted … HIC! … was a proper explanation like. An apology and acknowlegement of how terrified everyone in the back seat was. I had started to make my peace with God and there was a pair of ashen faces in that rear seat, I can tell you! It has blighted our perception of shopping trips - we came back and went straight to bed and just [content censored - EDITOR]."

The 'Manchester Morning Hoot' understands that the aggrieved couple have now consulted acclaimed personal injury lawyers 'Vultures'R'Us'. "We won't stop till we've made Cab2 pay for this horror," said lawyer Shaun Shameless. "We expect millions in compo for a traumatic incident like this."

Cab2 spokeswoman Philippa Meedaughter commented: "We apologise for any inconvenience caused by this regrettable incident. We will consider driving straight through red traffic lights in future to avoid distressing nervous passengers."


LEGAL DISCLAIMER: The above article is fictitious and any resemblance to real-life characters is purely coincidental. No animals were injured in the writing of this article. Except for the pig which ended up in that rather tasty bacon sandwich. Oh, and that bl**dy cat ...

[Suzeman]

Come to think of it, if they don't like going up or down with a loud shudder it couldn't have been much of a honeymoon anyway


Excellent - made my day! :ok::D

Even all the comments on the MEN website are basically saying why is the MEN publishing this load of rubbish and they're just after some cash for their scary experience etc.

Mind you they do say that this month in particular is the silly season for the meedjah as people are away and our local journo Mr Phil Space (credit Private Eye) or in this case Ms Phil(omena) Space - has to live up to her name.

And hence the need for the pre-bank holiday press release, no doubt cut and pasted verbatim, that Bagso was referring to. If anyone can be a*sed to look back you'll probably find it's the same template over the last few years with only the names changed...And every other airport will be doing the same in the next couple of days.

10 points to Shed for a very amusing spoof. Why not send it to the MEN and see if they will publish it - it deserves a wider audience. :eek: Or failing that the Daily Mash!

[easyflyer83]

Having had many go-arounds I have never experienced sheer panic from passengers. Maybe a momentary look of concern but no screaming or other amateur dramatics, including when we once did a TOGA. Even the once a year crowd soon realise what is happening. I'm sure Jet2 have a procedure where the cabin crew will make a PA once it becomes apparent that a go-around has taken place and the pilots will make a PA late.....but only if time/workload permits. Would they rather them fly the plane or make a PA?

[MANFOD]

That M.E.N article about this busy weekend takes the biscuit as it goes on to include wording from the article a month ago, which makes the time frame ludicrous. Very shoddy reporting and editing!

"But the busiest predicted day is still a month away.

Bosses expect an estimated 87,000 to make their great escapes on August 29 on the busiest day of the year.

Ken O’Toole, chief commercial officer for MAG, which owns the hub, said: “We expect that numbers will increase even further as the summer progresses, with increased numbers of business travellers and a busy summer holiday season ahead as schools finish"

[Sholto Douglas]

Shed - you have made my day! I might have to take legal action against you for the pain that you cause as I spent so much time in hysterics. Keep up the good journalism.

[MANFOD]

Yes, hats off to logohu for his honeymoon joke and Shed for his spoof. It's great that humour is alive and well on the Manchester thread.

I wonder if anyone from the M.E.N bothers to read the comments in response to the article. They were, quite rightly, very scathing.

[Fairdealfrank]

Loguhu and Shed: brilliant humour, made my day too!

Hey Shed, what happened to the chubby lad, Roy Broun? He's usually seen hanging around Royston Veasy .........

[Bagso]

Appears "Satire" is alive and well....brilliant more please :ok:

[LN-KGL]

As promissed in #3862, her are the times of today's SK4609 from OSL:
- Landed 09:44
- At gate 09:50 (15 minutters early)
- Through UK Border control 09:56 (only one woman left in the EEA line as I had walked through the maze)
- First bag on belt 10:22
- My bag arrived on belt 10:25
- Last bag on belt 10:40

The time to get the rental car isn't of interest since for us it was more important to get a good cup of coffee before taking the bus to the rental car village.

From Chester
Kurt

[dave59]

How common are go-arounds due to crossing traffic at MAN? Quite rare events I should imagine.

[Ian Brooks]

Not common but if someone is a bit slow off the mark it can cause a problem, this is usually caused by an aircraft being stationary at holding point which has an incline and causes a problem breaking away from
a stop at hold D3.
A few years ago a light aircraft was flipped over passing behind
a widebody just moving from there because of the large ammount of power required.

Ian

[Crazy Voyager]

Not common, but not unheard off.

It isn't helped by the fact that almost all heavies use D (since most are from T2), and D has quite a steep incline. It also sits the furthest down the runway which means it gives the least time to cross.

The fact there are only CAT3 holds also increases the distance the aircraft have to travel when crossing and therefore the runway occupancy time.

[BDLBOS]

First, I would say that the MEN should fire the Editor for allowing such an idiotic story to get through.
Second, the people of Glossop must be saying, why didn't they say they were from Wigan. Sadly, both the couple and the MEN look like idiots.

[gsky]

Why pick on Wigan ??

[Bagso]

I noticed the car park under the approach appears to be operational, quite a few cars in the there this week.

Didn't see much progress re Airport City, much happening there?

[Ian Brooks]

I think the offices off Aviator Way are incorporated in Airport City so
will be filled first which is happening

Ian

[rkenyon]

Any further news or rumours about the second EK A380? It seems to have gone very quiet.

FCO has just got a second A380, along with a new 777 service.

[Logohu]

American appear to be still tinkering with their Winter schedule - at least according to our booking system :-

The Wednesday JFK service (AA211) is removed from 07Jan for the rest of the winter.

Also the daily PHL service reverts to an A332 (instead of A333) for the month of November. More curious is an apparent reduction to 4 services only for the last week of November (24th-30th). Then it's back to a daily A333 from 01Dec for the rest of the winter.

Perhaps LAXLHR or someone else might be able to verify the above ?

[Logohu]

There appears to be changes afoot for Saudia in the Winter schedule.

A new flight number SV199/198 has now appeared in our system operating 4 weekly on Mon/Tue/Thu/Sat. However the existing SV123/124 is still showing on Tue/Thu/Sun as well. I can't imagine they are going to 7 services (including two on Tuesdays/Thursdays !!!), so I expect the system is still being updated.

Meanwhile poor old Egyptair still showing their usual 5 weekly services for the Winter from 26 October, but with all flights closed for sale. Getting a bit late now.

[MANFOD]

logohu, Re US to PHL, I wonder if that reduction the last week in November relates to the Thanksgiving holiday, which I think is late this year with the 4th Thursday falling on the 27th. The A333 from Dec., if it still happens, surprises me as it's showing a A332 again for next summer. And still no sign of CLT returning last time I checked. With the short season of CLT flights ending shortly, it is not surprising that outbound loads from MAN seem to be falling away quite sharply based on the available seats for various dates on their booking page. For several weeks, loads both ways looked very good, but I suspect it was partly at the expense of PHL, which doesn't appear to have been anything like as buoyant as previous years.

I agree that the AA flight to JFK has disappeared for the Wed. departure ex MAN over the winter, so there will be no AA flights on a Wed. at all while the ORD is suspended.

Tough times on the TATL for MAN, not helped by continuing leakage to LHR and DUB I suspect.

[Bagso]

Must confess I "thought"we were powering ahead at the beginning of the year, SAUDIA / FlyNAS were announced as was Cathay. THY 10 a week, Emirates 20% up.....

As we approach Autumn the general upsurge in pax "much trumpeted by the Daily Bugle" appears to this reader at least to be masking some major fault lines which are appearing.

I'm sure I saw a suggestion by a MAG spokesperson that the airport was "well on target" to hit over 25m pax a year by 2015 ....is that still reasonable ?

Likewise did EZY not promise significant expansion by same time with many more based aircraft again we were supposed to have been thee airport showing the largest growth. ...as at June13

If your cup is half empty (like mine) it means you go the extra mile to at least try and put matters right.....There does appear to be some inertia creep!

Some good news away from "sun traps" would be welcome !

Ps the Egyptair debacle is shambolic. ....Once they are gone they won't be back !

[MANFOD]

I'm sure there was a suggestion/rumour a couple of years ago, or maybe slightly less, that Easyjet could have 20 based a/c at MAN by 2020. Something like that anyway, (and not from the airline I might add) with an additional 1 or 2 based a/c each year. In 2013, it went from 6 based to 8 based, but remained at that this summer. Because there was no increase this year, I think some assumed that growth would resume next year. It may well still happen, but nevertheless a dangerous assumption to make.

Another factor is that EZY are I think expanding at LTN but not at STN, the MAG airport where Ryanair are reinstating frequencies and routes previously withdrawn. It may or may not be coincidence that it is RYR who are expanding at MAN this winter by continuing services started in the summer. Whether this reflects deals in place with the respective airlines, I've no idea, but to my mind it would be preferable to see steady growth by both carriers.

Perhaps another factor is that Ryanair seem more inclined to serve MAN with non-based a/c than are Easyjet. There is a significant proportion of RYR flights that don't originate here. Given the congestion early morning in the summer it would surely be beneficial if Easyjet could do likewise.

[LAX_LHR]

There appears to be changes afoot for Saudia in the Winter schedule.

A new flight number SV199/198 has now appeared in our system operating 4 weekly on Mon/Tue/Thu/Sat. However the existing SV123/124 is still showing on Tue/Thu/Sun as well


Interestingly, SV198/199 were the original flight numbers that the service was showing.

GDS has just updated but continues to only show SV123/124 flights, so, will be interesting to see what happens.

[Logohu]

GDS has just updated but continues to only show SV123/124 flights, so, will be interesting to see what happens.

Today's Airline Route update states the Saudia flights for the winter are remaining as SV123/124 and at 3 weekly, but operating on Tue/Thu/Sat instead of Tue/Thu/Sun. Also the Thu service will be on a 2-class 772 from 18Dec - 31Jan. This matches what Saudia's own website is now showing, so seems to be the most likely outcome.

[nigel osborne]

Logahu,

Noticed this today perhaps might explain some slight Thurs changes to 2 class machines ?


Saudia has updated planned operational schedule for Jeddah – Manchester service on/after 26OCT14. The airline will continue to offer 3 weekly flights on board 3-class Boeing 777-200ER aircraft. However, from 18DEC14 to 31JAN15, Thursdays flight sees 2-class aircraft operating with no First Class service.

SV123 JED0430 – 0815MAN 77L 26
SV123 JED0430 – 0815MAN 772 4

SV124 MAN1200 – 2100JED 77L 26
SV124 MAN1200 – 2100JED 772 4



Nigel

[BHX5DME]

1991 10,463,682 1992 12,051,560 1993 13,099,080 1994 14,569,665 1995 14,750,928 1996 14,659,803 1997 15,946,986 1998 17,351,162 1999 17,577,773 2000 18,566,209 2001 19,307,011 2002 18,809,360 2003 19,699,256 2004 21,249,841 2005 22,402,856 2006 22,442,855 2007 22,112,625 2008 21,219,195 2009 18,724,889 2010 17,759,015 2011 18,881,788 2012 19,732,444 2013 20,751,581
2014 22,000,000 ?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

I suspect that EasyJet's rate of expansion at MAN is heavily influenced by factors wholly unrelated to the performance of this airport. The lengthy dispute between EZY management and major shareholder Stelios (and family) resulted in a long delay in placing an order for new aircraft. Whilst an order is now in place, delivery dates are further out than might have originally been the case.

On top of this, EZY has understandably taken advantage of unanticipated opportunities to expand at its core bases. The chance to acquire a large block of scarce LGW slots from FlyBe … the chance to capitalise on Alitalia's troubles … EZY had to react to these. But the aircraft required to take advantage of these short-notice opportunities have to come from somewhere, and the delivery situation means that units must be sourced from existing bases.

So far, MAN has been fortunate that the base here has grown to eight units and no aircraft have been withdrawn and reallocated. EZY closed at EMA and has reduced its fleet at bases including NCL, LPL, BFS and STN. In most cases, the airport 'locals' despair that their airport appears to be doing badly. The reality is simply that those scarce aircraft must be deployed where they will generate maximum profit in the long-term. And that means that those 'use-it-or-lose-it' LGW slots must be quickly grabbed and occupied.

Against this backdrop, slower-than-anticipated expansion at MAN must not be viewed as some sort of local failure. Any additional aircraft availability will be allocated according to EZY's internal company priorities … MAN is on the list but (I guess) not at the top of it! Keep the fingers crossed that MAN can keep hold of its existing based fleet of eight EZY units. That is a good result at this point. Appreciate any additional expansion which does come our way in the short-term. Then look for further fleet expansion once new aircraft deliveries pick up (barring the effects of any merger and acquisition activity in the meantime).

On a similar note, RYR faces a comparable problem for very different reasons. The company endured a lengthy stand-off with Boeing when negotiating for additional B738's on terms acceptable to both parties. Again, an order is now in place but a delivery hiatus has resulted. This will affect the rate of expansion at bases across the company. Units will be transferred to where the company foresees the best profit opportunities going forward. Some airports will lose based aircraft ("But … but … they were always full!!!!") in favour of the company's identified priorities until deliveries pick up again.

[Bagso]

Re EZY "slower-than-anticipated expansion at MAN must not be viewed as some sort of local failure".

Possibly not but it was only Nov that EZY said.....

"Manchester had been its best performing hub over the past financial year, with passenger numbers soaring 16 per cent to 3.4 million"

If that is the case and we really are "that good"....

it would surely be nice to "divert" some aircraft or at least more routes to our operation ........in tandem with the opportunities at Gatwick !

If anybody has a complete net rundown of new routes , increased frequencies and cutbacks since, then it would make interesting reading !

In other news the Daily Bugle today suggested that Manchester as a City is thee most name checked City in Westminster and before the snipers come out most comments appear to be positive:D

Manchester the most mentioned of any English city in Parliament - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-most-mentioned-any-english-7666856)

However given the continuing ignorance expressed by "Visit Britain" to the UKs second most popular City for tourism, some moves here would dramatically effect Manchester throughput ....

AND the red tape that Egyptair "appear" to be mired in, maybe Manchester Airport could drop them an email !

This is just TWO interventions that WOULD make a difference ....alternatively we could just sit on our hands !

[Alsacienne]

Why bother with any aircraft at all? Departed Manchester T2 yesterday and couldn't find the gates without walking through the extensive and intermidable shopping mall. MAG should be able to earn a pretty penny from these high end retail outlets (and no I'm not talking about WHSmith!).

[pwalhx]

I am sorry, but we have had this before, it is hardly a trial to walk through the shopping area into the departure lounge in T2. As for can't find the gates I am speechless.

I regularly use T2 and rarely if ever shop and it takes a couple of minutes to walk through.

Finally there are a long list of airports that use the same, walk through the duty free area to get to the gate style, Manchester is far from alone.

[ericlday]

Even TFS has the same arrangement.

[Alsacienne]

it is hardly a trial to walk through the shopping area into the departure lounge in T2. As for can't find the gates I am speechless.

Please reconnect your voicebox!! Tongue strictly in cheek ... :ok:

[Bagso]

This sort of thing is infuriating

Concern over rail shake-up for Lakes Line (From The Westmorland Gazette) (http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/11427880.Concern_over_rail_shake_up_for_Lakes_Line/)

It follows on from similar reports about scrapping trains direct trains from Humberside.

Anybody following Manchester on twitter will no doubt have noticed the puerile games emanating from our illustrious twits.......

"Where is Di Maria"

Rather than playing silly games on twitter would the airport not be better using its energy to support campaigns of this nature ?

Not only do passengers come from these regions they do actually go in the other direction, there seems to be an obsession with passengers from Manchester flying OUT but total ignorance of those flying IN ...

A direct link from the airport to The Lake District one of thee best tourist attractions in Europe would seem seems absolutely vital to me ............

[Bagso]

This sort of thing is infuriating

Concern over rail shake-up for Lakes Line (From The Westmorland Gazette) (http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/11427880.Concern_over_rail_shake_up_for_Lakes_Line/)

It follows on from similar reports about scrapping direct trains from Humberside.

Anybody following Manchester Airport on twitter the last 36 hours will no doubt have noticed the puerile games emanating from our illustrious twitters or as I prefer to describe them "The Twits".

"Where is Di Maria"

Rather than just playing silly games on twitter would the airport not be better canvassing support from influential groups and focusing its energy to support campaigns of this nature ?

Campaigns that might actually put bums on seats (see above).

Not only do passengers come from these regions they do actually go in the other direction, there seems to be an obsession with passengers from Manchester (The City), flying OUT but total ignorance of those flying IN ...

A direct link from the airport to The Lake District one of thee best tourist attractions in Europe would seem absolutely vital to me ............AND one worth fighting for !

Sometimes they just seem clueless about issues relating to the airport !

Ps ...where are all those opinion makers re "OneNorth" and transport investment, the noise is deafening!

[LAX_LHR]

Bagso,

Im sorry that this is going to come across as rather blunt but.....

You are not happy with the way MAN are using social media to promote the 'right thing', we get it.

In the nicest way I can word it, would your frustrations and energy not be best focused on MAN itself, instead of an anonymous internet forum where your half page rants are unlikely to change anything?

Like I say, I am sorry to come across the way I do, its just you seem to be covering similar ground each time, with just a slight tweak on the actual subject matter, and with the best will in the world Bagso, you are preaching to the wrong people.

If you are so passionate about change, direct it at the right people and that change may have a better chance of that change happening.

(or, as seen as social media is such a sore point, why not fight fire with fire and use social media to promote services at MAN and pester MAN to re-tweet noteworthy news?)

[Skipness One Echo]

NATS hold onto MAG Airports at MAN and STN after the recent loss of both LGW and BHX.

MAG and NATS announces ten year deal (http://www.nats.aero/news/mag-nats-announce-ten-year-deal/)

[MANFOD]

Skip, thanks for that information and link. I was wondering when the MAN contract for air traffic services was due for renewal after the recent news from LGW and BHX. Those that listen to ATC will continue to hear some familiar voices.

LAX, I would be surprised if Bagso doesn't air his views to those more directly involved. Irrespective of the media aspect, there is a valid point about train services to the airport. Work on the 4th heavy rail platform at the station is advancing at a fair pace now and my understanding was that its purpose was to provide a more efficient operation of trains and to enable more services to the airport. While some of the extra trains would hopefully be to the south, I thought it would also lead to additional services to Piccadilly and beyond, given the work on the so called 'Hub' and the Ordsall curve (edit: should be 'Ordsall Chord') designed to give a better flow through Piccadilly. It seems strange therefore that at a time when improved connectivity to MAN is forecast, direct train services to Hull and the Lake District may be cut. Yes, passengers can change trains, but it's not much fun if you've lots of luggage and it can be a hassle for the elderly or disabled, plus the worry (as with airports) of missing connections especially if tickets are only valid for a specified train.

My own observations are that most trains (not always the local ones) are now well used to the airport and I suppose the changes arguably might lead to more trains to say Leeds or Preston, even if Hull (edit: should be Cleethorpes), Windermere and Barrow lose their direct services.

Anyway LAX, have you any good rumours? We seem to be starved of positive stories just at the moment? Maybe September and the end of the holidays will bring about a change.

[Bagso]

I take your point Lax but not everyone is as informed as yourself.

Cancellation of the a direct train service from both The Lake District and indeed Humberside may not exactly set the juices flowing but it is relevant. I'm sure I also read somewhere that some NEast services are facing reduction.

I'm sure we all want connections extended..... not reduced !

Equally relevant (at least in my view) are the airports thoughts/comments (or not as the case may be) on issues that in my view do clearly effect them and the wider region.

In years gone by this was not the case, prior to the internet many opinion makers were very vocal, it "usually" resulted in a positive reverse !

Other than occasional missives thru the M E N there are very few opportunities to canvass opinion on exactly what the airport managers think on this and other issues !

Of course they are not obliged to reference every point simply because "a few spotters" have an opinion, note - I am not so naive to believe they have to respond to every armchair comment, but I personally would hate those same Airport Managers to "move on" a few years down the line without doing their absolute damndest to make sure they do everything they possibly can to make the place a success whilst they are in its current employ !

Their thoughts on retaining train services, retaining routes Eg Egytptair and indeed their thoughts on infrastructure planning would therefore be of real interest !

There may be much paddling below the surface ,
They may not wish to disclose "their hand

I understand and get all that but it would be good to get an occasional opinion !

Thee ONLY medium which is updated on a regular basis is twitter, but not everyone who is on here is on there , so again my last posting was very much an attempt not to "rant" but to inform and indeed try and place in context what "they" themselves are actually saying whilst other issues seemingly are not getting any airplay!

I shall however try and refrain from mentioning that horrible word "tweet" again :ok:

AND yes I do ask them DIRECT. the responses are how shall we say "off piste" .

[LAX_LHR]

Bagso,

I think you have mis-understood what I was saying.

I was not bemoaning the content, but more the frequency, repetitiveness and choice of outlet to which these rants come.

Yes, they are issues, but sustained posts on this particular site are not going to change that.

MANFOD,

While there is a lack of news at this particular time, little snippets of good news rarely generate much discussion, but, negative news gets posted and by god do we know about it, followed by pages of self pity. (for example Summer 2015 is still 7 months away with airlines schedules far from finalised, but the doom and gloom is already at the forefront of some peoples minds!)

Im not saying we should ignore and cover up bad news, but by god, can we not celebrate the success we do have, as its like slit-wrist central on a few forums at the moment!

[Manchesterbound]

There is a delegation from Hainan Airlines in Manchester this week. Having met with them this morning they are "confident" in introducing a Manchester - Beijing route from late Spring, early Summer 2015. Operating a A330 4 x weekly, 186Y and initially 36J.

[Bagso]

HAINAN

Well I shall lead the charge ...brilliant news. Fingers crossed !

[MANFOD]

Well, there you go LAX, Manchesterbound has produced a good news story with hopefully a positive outcome.

As to your point about too much doom and gloom on various forums, I think it's important to get a balance. The present growth at MAN of 6.2% in July was excellent and I suspect the summer has been better than even MAN targeted. However, looking towards winter, it has to be said that MAN's TATL schedules are disappointing even if the cuts can be rationalised due to maintenance etc. On the other hand, CX starting is a great boost and Ryanair's additional services are very welcome. Swings and roundabouts for the winter maybe.

As to summer 2015, I acknowledge that some of us may have been ultra cautious based on schedules currently loaded for some airlines and hopefully the final picture will be much brighter. Certainly MAN seem confident about continuing growth.

Do you happen to know if discussions are still ongoing with airlines regarding the possible major redevelopment of T1/T3? It must be a giant headache as to how to maintain operations, particularly if growth in passenger numbers and flights continue in the meantime.

[Suzeman]

Warning - this message contains lots of information about trains and the relevance of the new franchises from 2016 on services to Manchester Airport. People who think rail connectivity at the Airport is b*gger all to do with the prospects of the Airport should look away now....

Bagso

Any current flapdoodle about train services to / from the Airport comes as a result of the just completed consultation on the re-letting of the Northern and TPE franchises. Here's the link

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/320806/northern-transpennine-consultation.pdf

I'm assuming you have had your say :ok: and I'm sure the airport have done likewise, considering there are threats but also opportunities to enhance not only the range of destinations to / from the Airport, but the service quality and capacity of the trains in use..And if the Airport haven't responded :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Bagso, what you describe are some of the questions asked in the consultation and are about what routes should be specified in the Invitation to Tender for the two franchises. In an unbelievable moment of joined up thinking, DfT are looking at route swops etc between franchises and letting them both at the same time.

In respect of the South Transpennine /Cleethorpes service I recommend you read paras 5.6 -5.16. I have reproduced paras 5.12 and 5.13 below.

5.12 In the case of South Humberside services, stations between
Doncaster and Cleethorpes currently have an hourly TPE
service from Manchester Airport. Passenger loadings are
relatively high between Manchester Airport and Doncaster but
low between Doncaster and Cleethorpes. The majority of
passengers from Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Scunthorpe are
travelling only as far as Sheffield or connecting at Doncaster or
Sheffield for onward services, rather than travelling over the
Pennines.

5.13 We are therefore examining the option, subject to operational
constraints, of terminating the TPE service from Manchester at
Doncaster with a replacement Sheffield-Cleethorpes service
being operated by Northern, possibly as an extension of the
existing hourly Northern Sheffield-Scunthorpe service. A wider
package of changes could also feature the transfer of one of
Northern's two services between Doncaster and Hull in each
hour to TPE, allowing a through TPE service to Hull via the
South TransPennine route (i.e. via Sheffield)


These are all still ideas on which everyone was asked to give their views and we will know the franchise spec soon enough when the Invitation to Tender is issued in December 2014. So the Airport to Cleethorpes service could terminate at Doncaster, or be extended to Hull, which would be a new direct train connection for the Airport.

It is also suggested that TPE could operate all the fast Sheffield - Manchester services taking over the current East Midlands Liverpool - Nottingham train. In addition, a third frequency could be added from Dec 2018 when capacity enhancements in the Hope Valley allow. The report says
Previous work carried out by Network Rail suggests that for most of the stations served by the TPE and EMT services the economic benefits of a direct service to Manchester Airport are similar to the economic benefits of a direct service to Liverpool. On this basis, we expect the ITT will not specify particular cross-Pennine linkages in these two cases but will instead leave bidders to make a commercial decision based on the relative strengths of the passenger flows.

This means that all three trains from Sheffield could go in theory to the Airport if the franchisee wishes although I wonder whether the paths are available. Most likely that one will remain to Liverpool and the other is up for grabs.

In respect of the Airport - Windermere and Barrow, the situation is more complex and is covered in paras 5.18 - 5.32. Barrow currently has 5 through trains a day to the airport; Windermere only has one. Both these routes plus Airport - Blackpool could be transferred to Northern. Northern would use 4 coach electrics on Blackpool instead of TPE's 3 coach diesels; there is no guarantee that Northern would run Airport - Windermere or Barrow although the consultation asked the question as to which destinations should be served.

I should add that when Northern introduce their "new" 4 coach electric units (cast offs from Thameslink) in the December 2014 timetable change, the first route is almost certainly to be Manchester Airport - Liverpool via Earlestown; so faster journeys and more capacity...

It is suggested that North Transpennine service patterns should be left to the bidders in the same way as South Transpennie because-
Previous work carried out by Network Rail suggests that for
each of the eastern destinations (Newcastle, Middlesbrough,
York, Hull or Scarborough) the wider economic benefits of a
direct service to Manchester Airport are similar to the wider
economic benefits of a direct service to Liverpool.

Paras 3.62 and 3.63 of the consultation say
3.62 This means that we do not propose to specify a particular
timetable or service pattern for TPE, but instead to have a
more flexible train service specification which could include the
following service characteristics (note that these would be
specified separately for weekday, Saturday and Sunday
services):
 Number of calls at each station per hour/per day
 Specified first and last trains, including specific
consideration of Manchester Airport services
 Certain calling patterns

3.63 This would give the franchisee the freedom to develop
services to respond to changes in passenger demand and to
grow the market in the areas where there are commercial
incentives to do so as well as protecting minimum service
levels for social and economic purposes on the remainder of
the TPE network.

I would hope that the Airport will work with the bidders and others to ensure a maximisation of relevant services to and from the Airport. There once used to be a very clued up Ground Transport Team but I'm not sure how it is handled nowadays

As far as Northern are concerned, the consultation remains silent on all routes and specifications apart from the potential route swops, so we shall have to see what comes out in the ITT specification - See Section 6 of the report if you are interested.

So there you have it. Plenty to think about.

[manniashraf]

Hi is this correct and when will we see it be announced roughly? This has put a amazing excitement in me!

[LAX_LHR]

As to your point about too much doom and gloom on various forums, I think it's important to get a balance


Yes, it would be nice. However, despite the myriad of new routes this summer, despite the increase in passenger numbers and despite the improvements on hand at the airport (airport city, proposed terminal re-developments), people still find need to bemoan much, much more than celebrate.

So yes, balance would be nice, I mean, look at the Hainan rumour. Barely been questioned or congratulated (regardless as to whether it comes off), yet loosing a train link or the prospect of less flights next summer, and hey presto 2-3 pages can be reeled off with no issue. Does that sound like balance? Any casual observers to this thread would think MAN was in dire straits?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Not entirely fair comment IMHO. There is a big difference between a juicy rumour and a firm announcement. Hainan is a rumour. I honestly wouldn't rush to 'congratulate' a rumour. Most experienced contributors are very wary where rumours are concerned … too much can still go wrong. When Cathay Pacific was *confirmed*, pages of discussion rightly ensued. There was also healthy discussion of the Thomas Cook long-haul announcements. Confirmed positive developments generally do receive the attention they deserve on here. The main driver on this thread seems to be the perceived magnitude of the news item rather than whether it is perceived to be 'good' or 'bad'. That seems healthy to me. There are plenty of examples of 'bad news' stories receiving little or no attention on here as well as 'good news' items.

One example of bad news receiving no attention: Tripoli Airport was captured by Islamist extremist militia during the weekend. They burned down airport buildings and 'danced around wrecked airliners'. Charming and highly educated bunch. I think we can safely say Libyan's MAN-TIP schedule is a goner for the long term. Although in this case, our main concern has to be for the suffering of those innocent Libyan civilians who are not in thrall to barbarism reminiscent of the Middle Ages.

Meanwhile, on the subject of trains. Did anybody notice that the May 2014 timetable reorganisation left Manchester Airport with through-trains beyond York to Newcastle axed? Change at York … not good news for pax with luggage to consider. I didn't see 2-3 pages on that one either.

For me, this thread has it about right. Each discussion topic - positive and negative alike - receives the attention it merits. I have little interest in either moaning about or celebrating news snippets on here. I don't want to see the thread develop an irrational sunny / gloomy 'editorial slant'. My aim is to objectively assess and analyse developments at MAN with a view to forecasting future trends with some modicum of accuracy. Like most here, I welcome success at the airport. But for the emotional partisan cheerleading stuff it is far better to stick to the Etihad Stadium!

[kjsharg]

Dnata starting at manchester? Full ground servicing? Apparently got Emirates from Oct and Cathay to!

If true it's a good start for Dnata!

Can anyone confirm?

[MANFOD]

Thank you Shed for your comments, which I believe to be accurate, fair and 'balanced'.

Your point about rumours being just that until an official announcement is well taken and there have indeed been examples of strong rumours either proving to be incorrect or which originally had a sound basis but which for whatever reason didn't come to fruition. The recent story of a new long haul service, which was eventually confirmed as being DL to DTW, was apparently true but plans were aborted. It was only when I asked a second time about the status (on another forum) that we were told it wasn't happening. As you say, some of us are more wary about such rumours and I have to say when they turn out not to be happening, it's a pity they are not knocked on the head as quickly as they could be sometimes.

Back to trains, and thanks to Suzeman for the extracts from that report and the link. Have to admit I did spend half an hour scanning the more interesting bits. It seems to me this particular quote that Suzeman gave is of relevance to MAN and an example of where they should be responding with vigour. Maybe they have,

"Previous work carried out by Network Rail suggests that for each of the eastern destinations (Newcastle, Middlesbrough, York, Hull or Scarborough) the wider economic benefits of a direct service to Manchester Airport are similar to the wider economic benefits of a direct service to Liverpool".


Shed, it had vaguely registered that there were no longer direct trains from the airport to Newcastle, which presumably now start at Liverpool instead.
The report refers to previous work by National Rail showing that most pax from the airport only travel to Doncaster on the Cleethorpes service and I assume a similar conclusion was reached on the Newcastle service with most going no further than York. I had also referred to the issue of having to change trains with luggage and I also feel the type of passenger, not just the number, is important. For example, changing trains for an elderly couple with heavy luggage travelling to the airport is going to be more of a hassle than to say a student with a rucksack travelling to Liverpool or vice versa. I wonder if that analysis was done. In addition, Northern Rail will need better rolling stock with more luggage space if they are to run more of the airport services.
The bottom line is that Manchester Airport should be fighting hard, if not already doing so, to ensure maximum connectivity by rail from the wider region to support and grow its air services.

[Skipness One Echo]

If true it's a good start for Dnata!
They're (almost) owned by Emirates so a bit of a competitive advantage there.
Back to trains
Oh dear.

[MANFOD]

Quote:

Quote:
Back to trains

Oh dear.

Well Skip, if you'd rather discuss airline business models, cost benefit analysis and the advantages of LHR, fire away.

If someone could tell us how many passengers arrive/depart MAN by train, it might give a clue as to whether it's relevant in terms of connectivity and potential for further growth.

Edit: To partly answer my own question, an Airport fact sheet included the following:
"The number of passengers using the train has steadily risen as the Airport has grown and in 2007/08, around 2.5 million rail journeys were made to the Airport"

Sadly it is somewhat out of date, as it also forecasts 40m pax for MAN by 2015! If anyone has more current figures for train usage it would be helpful but even on those old figures, it's not insignificant. Aren't MAN/MAG due to produce a new long term plan?

And further, Wiki has this, based on estimated ticket sales for pax starting or ending their journeys at the airport:
"2011/12 pax 3.163 million"

[pwalhx]

Firstly, I would probably side with World Rep's comments, but everyone is allowed their opinions.

On the subject of trains, I was on the train from Newcastle yesterday which does indeed terminate in Liverpool and passengers for the airport were advised we had overtaken a train near Thirsk so they would be able to connect at Picadilly for the airport.

Finally in the FT we are advised that FR will introduce 'business class' which we could probably see at MAN I would think.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/360ac340-2db2-11e4-8346-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3BaRN3SCC

[spannersatcx]

Dnata starting at manchester? Full ground servicing? Apparently got Emirates from Oct and Cathay to!

If true it's a good start for Dnata!

Can anyone confirm?

Yes I can confirm that CX have not signed with anyone as of yet.

[MANFOD]

Spannersatcx, Have you any indication on how forward bookings are looking and whether they are up to CX expectations?

Thanks for any info.

[LAX_LHR]

Have you any indication on how forward bookings are looking and whether they are up to CX expectations?


Average loads so far seem to be about 12-20 in J each way, 10-ish in Y+ each way and about 70-80% in Y.
While they would never tell us the true figure, fares have been quoted as 'comparable' to LHR.

[MANFOD]

Ah, thanks LAX. That looks pretty encouraging given that we're still over 3 months from the start date.

Is the configuration 40 / 32 / 268 or have I got the wrong version of the B777?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Sorry, Skip … a bit more on the airport trains! They are really important at MAN (really!) and further significant changes are on the way.

With respect to the Transpennine routes serving Manchester Airport, the Train Operating Companies seem to plan on an 'all or nothing' basis. On the Newcastle - York - Leeds - NW corridor there is an hourly service and the eventual ambition is to increase this. There is a strong case for Newcastle - Liverpool, but there is also a strong case for Newcastle - Manchester Airport. But apparently ALL trains must run exactly the same route! Is it beyond the wit of TPE to ALTERNATE these trains with a two hourly service to each destination? And in conjunction with this, alternate the corresponding hourly York - Manchester Airport service with Liverpool as well? This seems a far more sensible way to service the demand and keep everybody happy. And, by the way, the new set-up also means there is now NO link between Manchester Piccadilly and Newcastle / Durham / Darlington [Newcastle - Liverpool ops via Victoria] … also important for many transfers.

MAG does have a role to play in knocking some heads together at TPE, Northern Trains and the Office of the Rail Regulator. Northern is currently proposing to introduce an 'evening peak period' rule which will destroy the utility of most Ranger/Rover tickets too. Inspired thinking out of these companies of late. What price creativity and common sense?

[Facelookbovvered]

I agree trains are very important part of any integrated transport policy particularly at an international airport like MAN

i 'm surprised that you can't do the airport to NCL though? i would have thought you could change at Leeds for York and onto NCL or do you mean without changing trains, frequency is important of course and given the variable nature of luggage retrieval a frequency of less than hourly is unacceptable unless less its to somewhere off the beaten track (no pun intended)

[anothertyke]

Some absolute classics in this thread recently. Talk about glass half empty syndrome.

The TPE timetable since May is the best thing to happen for a long while on that desperately overcrowded route. 20 mins off the journey to Liverpool from York and Leeds, doubled frequency on that run, direct to Victoria on a half decent train still with four an hour to Piccadilly. It's an improvement. OK if you're going from Newcastle to Mcr Airport you have to get off at Leeds and stand on platform 16 for 10 mins. Interworking the trains --all very well until something goes wrong, a cancellation happens, then it's a mess.

At least in Yorkshire the rover/ranger ticket validity other than the WY Day Rover is unaffected by the changes to off peak fares. (nothing whatever to do with air travel BTW).

One North---have you guys got any idea what lining up five different lots of politicians both local and central with subtly different priorities involves? The initial report was a good effort in the time and there is a lot going on. More important right now to get ducks in a row than make a lot of untargetted noise .

Moderator--sorry if this is insufficiently on message.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

anothertyke -

I'm glad you think this topic is a classic. The TPE timetable change is an overall improvement but there are winners and losers. Manchester Airport pax to / from the NE are clear losers. Luggage is a huge issue for holidaymakers changing at York … I've had to do this in the past and the number of times the onward reserved seats have been scrubbed is beyond a joke. TPE love scrapping the seat reservations on busy PH & Christmas trips. Stand York to Newcastle! Well, many can't / won't do this. Note that alternating the final destinations on the York - Airport and Newcastle - Liverpool runs would NOT require additional paths. The trains run already.

My future journeys on this route will be with National Express TFN … assured seats, cheaper too. But to show that the glass is 'half-full' elsewhere, services up the WCML from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh and Glasgow are significantly improved. Blackpool is well served too. We'll see what the fourth heavy rail platform brings to the airport when that comes on line.

By the way … the bit about local Ranger tickets not affecting the airport … ever heard of STAFF?

[Skipness One Echo]

The TPE timetable since May is the best thing to happen for a long while on that desperately overcrowded route.
Whoah when did China Airlines start MAN-TPE? #amazing
Oh wait. It's trains isn't it. Trains......still :confused:

Is the configuration 40 / 32 / 268 or have I got the wrong version of the B777?
Yes, should be the non F class subfleet at the start anyway, one from
B-KPY/Z
B-KQA/B/C/D/E/F/L +

[MANFOD]

Skip, thanks for that confirmation of the CX configuration. 340 is a lot of seats to fill but previous data from MAN has shown HK to be one of its most unserved routes. I guess selling a good proportion of those 40 J class seats at proper prices is key as I'd be very surprised if they don't get decent loads at the back.

[Armodeen]

I guess the HKG route is pencilled in for daily A359 when they arrive at CX? Unless we can fill a daily 77W by then ;)

[golf yankee one one]

As a fairly regular traveller from the airport via the station, my feeling is that rail connections to anywhere north, east or west are excellent, whereas points south are rather poorly served. The last direct train to Crewe is at 1811, and after 1930 it is necessary to go via Piccadilly. Crewe opens up Staffordshire, Shropshire and the Welsh border line through Shrewsbury.
I suspect part of the problem is that Northern trains control the airport station and shut out other operators like Arriva trains Wales. If their service to Piccadilly which already stops at Wilmslow went via the airport rather than via Stockport it would improve connectivity for many passengers and maybe draw a few people from BHX!

[easyflyer83]

I don't think that northern managing the station really affects what calls there. Also I think TPE manage the station though I could be wrong.
Diverting the arriva Wales service away from Stockport could arguably be tunnel vision on our part. I'd say there is a stronger argument for that service to serve Stockport rather than a self contained, albeit large, facility such as MAN.

Comparably speaking, the number of journeys into the airport station will be relatively small when compared to our major towns and cities and diverting services away from these centres is not ideal planning.

[spannersatcx]

Spannersatcx, Have you any indication on how forward bookings are looking and whether they are up to CX expectations?

Thanks for any info.

I can't see actual bookings, I was told a month or more ago that advance bookings were good, recently told they are now very good, whatever that means, so good that...........!

Just had a look at making a booking on the system and the first weeks flights, for staff, are wide open, so not sure what is meant by very good!

[Fairdealfrank]

A vast network of available direct rail destinations accross the north has long been Ringway's unique selling point. Discussions about changes/reductions are therefore relevant on this thread.


Good news about Hainan, hope it comes off!

[manniashraf]

Hi guys I emailed hanain saying I wanted to travel to baijing on there airline from manchester directly and if the rumours are correct.
There reply was "good afternoon manni great to know your a loyal customer towards us and we are sorry to tell you we are unable to tell you any information regarding opening any routes but we would strongly advise you to keep a eye on the local and international press conferences for the next couple of weeks"

This is exititing as this sounds promising..
Anyone with more Info please let me know..

[LAX_LHR]

Unfortunately Aer Lingus will cancel its 3 daily SNN flights due to Ryanair entering the route, but, will shift some flights to Cork, which will be increased and announced next week. An increase on MAN-DUB is expected too.

Lets hope the Hainan rumours are made clear soon, although, to be told to 'keep an eye on the news for the next few weeks', is a more defined time frame than just 'keep an eye out for an announcement'.

It all very intriguing.

[MANFOD]

As you say, the Hainan situation is getting intriguing so fingers crossed.

The advantage of EIR to SNN being 3 x daily was that they afforded a return trip on the same day, which FR's daily flight obviously does not. Whether that is significant I've no idea. Any extra flights to Cork will be welcome though.

Was in T1 late morning and no surprise that the check-in for EK18 was very busy. I've never seen such a long queue for J class before. Perhaps all the Business pax arrived about the same time but I doubt there were many, if any, empty seats.

[Crazy Voyager]

Any ideas what equipment EIN will be using for the increased frequencies? Is it a shift of ATRs from Shannon to Cork or are there more jets being thrown into the mix too?

[Bagso]

I see EI as a big loss as it provided connections from SNN to Europe and code shared with Etihad. More Dublin is just beyond as it simply bleeds yet more pax to US routes.

In more positive news Daily Bugle suggest Deutsche bank may be relocating a large operation from Birmingham to Manchester.

Gazprom are also rumoured to be setting up in Manchester.

Good news for Moscow as long as WW3 doesn't cock things up !

[All names taken]

Gazprom have been set up in Manchester for a good while now - Quay St in the city centre if I'm not mistaken. I have a friend that works there.

[chinapattern]

If Hainan do suddenly jump in and launch MAN-PEK then what on earth has stopped Air China given all the rumours and reports of how much money they have a allegedly spent in attempting to secure MAN?

[Bagso]

Gazprom have been set up in Manchester for a good while now - Quay St in the city centre if I'm not mistaken. I have a friend that works there.

Tell him/her they may be on the move to new dwellings in the order of 40,000 Sq ft.

[eye2eye5]

Good spin by the MEN, my colleague's husband has worked for Gazprom in Manchester for at least 5 years. Similarly, I'm sure Ryanair will trumpet their daily Shannon route a being new (which indeed it is to Manchester) although I share the view that the loss of a 3 per day Aer Lingus is a diminution of service. Bear in mind the fact that Ryanair's Liverpool to Shannon was only planned for 3 per week and I'm sure the Ryanair route planning dept have earned a glass of bubbly today for a job well done. Now, which Aer Lingus route is next.......?

[AndyH52]

Is it fair to assume that Hainan won't be 'jumping' anywhere near MAN until negotiations are concluded to amend the current Bi-lateral Air Services agreement with China? They are not a designated carrier under the current agreement...are the timescales for negotiations between the Uk and Chinese Governments known?

[LAX_LHR]

The current bilateral only has 1 un-allocated slot for Chinese carriers.

2 can be sourced from the old Air China Cargo flights, and, if the bilateral arrangement is a 'use it or loose it' arrangement, then maybe Hainan can 'pinch' the un-used slot from China Eastern for their potential 7th weekly flight.

So, as the rumour is for 4 weekly flights, 4 slots can be sourced at a push, but, we will have to wait and see.

[AndyH52]

You may be right LAX, but as per my original query given Hainan is not currently listed as a designated carrier under the existing agreement, services presumably cannot start until the revised agreement is concluded. I would presume also that slots may cease to be an issue in the new agreement as surely the total number of flights allowed and the number of destinations permitted will also increase?

[manniashraf]

Let's hope there's some news this week with hanain as Charlie Cornish told the m.e.n they are inches away from securing another direct flight to mainland china back in April when cathay was announced.
New flights to china does have a lot twists and turns don't they!
Also can't the british government not do something about creating slots as I genuinely personally feel they don't want designated carriers from china to fly direct to other city's in the UK other than London as I'm sure a direct flight to china would of started years ago...

[Manchester Kurt]

Hi


Quick question.

I am looking at flying to Gdansk next summer, see Ryanair do not have flights loaded for next summer (certainly on this route).


Is it a case that Ryanair have....


1 - ceased to operate this route next summer
2 - not loaded summer 2015 routes yet


Thanks

[FRatSTN]

Ryanair only have Dublin, Edinburgh, Glasgow (Intl and Prestwick) and London Stansted on sale for Summer 2015 at the moment. The rest should be there by mid to late September at the latest.


Hope this helps.

[pwalhx]

Sorry to bring up Twitter again, but the airport deserves praise today for the trolling of Piers Morgan, brought the airport lots of free publicity both on Twitter and in the news.

[pallan]

I was thinking the exact same thing when I read the Piers tweet, it has had over 1600 retweets.. excellent publicity!

[Bagso]

Yes at last , My goodness a spark of ingenuity :ok:

Now all we need with 128K of followers is ......(deleted)

[pwalhx]

I know it will never be good enough for some, but give them their due they are trying, there has been the Piers the Prat Morgan thing, they also got a mention on Radio 5 with the photos of where is Falcao. Also there has been mentions of flights.

[LAX_LHR]

Cargo contracts now out for Hainan Airlines:

''we are pleased to announce up to 300,000kg of weekly cargo space on the new 4 weekly A330-200 on Hainan Airline (HU) direct from Beijing to Manchester from 12th May 2015''

Im on my phone at the moment so will try and link a site when i get access to a desktop computer.

[Bagso]

I know it will never be good enough for some, but give them their due they are trying...

Trying ?

Hang on before we get too euphoric this isn't primary school !

This is a high profile , "corporate" organisation, very savvy with hopefully bags of manipulative nous.....

worth remembering lest ...."some" forget !

[Suzeman]

this isn't primary school !

Anyone that upsets Piers Moron is due a gold star :ok:

[pwalhx]

trying ... to engage with people... trying to get attention ..
The thing with twitter is, as I am learning in my business, is the straight forward 'advertorial' style isn't always the right tack.
I am told by people who know, is you have to engage, create a discussion, which is what they have done of late, so well done.

[Skipness One Echo]

Ryanair only have Dublin, Edinburgh, Glasgow (Intl and Prestwick) and London Stansted on sale for Summer 2015 at the moment.
*cough* Just DUB-GLA in place of PIK remember.
Hainan's last foray into the UK at Gatwick as Hong Kong Airlines was a mistake on every level, this one should be more succesful if it comes off.

[pwalhx]

Back to to airlines, looks very positive we will get good news on the Beijing flight pretty soon then, certainly will be using that service when I can.

SOE was the Gatwick-HKG flight not business only, which I am sure you would be the first to tell us is a completely different animal.

[kieb92]

EC-LZO B763 Privilege Style due in 10 mins as CFG3710 to operate the Condor flight to Palma. First visit?

[Bagso]

On the day Boris Island was rejected the internet was awash with PR put out by STN, in terms of a major master plan for developing Stansted.

Whilst it did not get any airtime on BBC who rightly or wrongly cannot see beyond Heathrow or Gatwick , well done Andrew Harrison for some adept marketing guile.

Reading the script however was more worrying as this points at a £260m investment plan to develop STN over the next 5 years.

This is worth investigating, whilst there is an £800m investment in "Manchester Airport" this appears to be specifically on Airport City and the peripheral areas, whilst welcome it does not appear to be on Terminals, Taxiways, Aprons, Piers etc ?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a second point it has been suggested that a few of us on here see our cup as half empty,

Maybe, but being realistic 8 months ago it was very much a case of onward and upward, Cathay had been announced, USAir, Rouge, Flynas etc
increases on US carriers for summer , then came The Thomas Cook rumours......all jolly good news !

Since then ?

Hainan, if true fantastic, but as with Cathay and Saudia, they do need filling, just parachuting in a new service without some tactical changes to passenger flows not just from Gtr Manchester but across the whole catchment area is risky.

To me at leas,t somehow the airport need to generate that "LHR connectivity WOW Factor" !

You sometimes get the impression that Manchester "The City" props up all these services because "primarily" although not exclusively, that's where the publicity normally resides.

The BBC Angle as above

"LHR serves the UK"
"Manchester serves ....well Manchester."

But what else has happened ?

FlyNas...no comment

The great news about the new US flight to Charlotte was tempered by a reduction in another, is the market so small that we are reduced to simply moving a very limited number of pax around on a chess board. If as Skip originally suggested Charlotte goes, where does that leave Philly given the numbers have since diminished..... ironically as a direct result of the new Charlotte service ?

Chicago - a 30 year old service now effectively reduced to seasonal without a by or leave, does The North only trade with the United States in Summer !

Egytpair..... it stutters on, maybe bilateral agreements will get resolved now Whitehall is back from its hols, there again it's not London and nobody is seemingly banging on the door with any ferocity so maybe we sit on our hands for another month or two....by then it might be a distant memory another carrier gone !

Aer Lingus - retraction of a good commuter filler 3 a day - shifting yet more capacity to Dublin, but worse , at the same time EI announcing LBA - Dub - > USA.

Dublin eating away at the margins as they prosper from pre-clearance/APD or lack of ! I suspect the Airport Authority cannot believe their good fortune re APD its effect on Manchester ......and our Chancellor !

And now Scotland awaits, even if they do not get independence the margins are so tight they will benefit, AND if scrapping APD is given as an option rest assured they will grasp it.

Trains (sorry), if Manchester has aspirations about connectivity and an Airport City these should be massively expanded not reduced, but again nobody seems able to challenge these decisions let alone campaign against them , they just, well happen... the towns they effect are vocal but what about the Airport, vociferous enough ?

Of course its not all bad news far from it , 6% increase in traffic, (as economy improves), Metrolink opening early, AND YES I do focus on failure not success ?

BUT I don't want this silent arrogance that we can lose US routes, Cairo, or indeed a reduction to trains links outside the coverage of the M.E.N. without some real fight that we did our absolute damnedest to retain ALL of them, so yes maybe my cup is half full !

Cheers

[pallan]

Some big changes coming out of VS this morning...

One of which, they are going to be taking over DL's MAN-ATL route...surprising? I thought so

[LAX_LHR]

Major changes at Virgin Atlantic announced today.

LHR-BOM/CPT/YVR and NRT cut.

But:

VS to take over MAN-ATL from Delta (confirmed), and very distinct possibility of MAN-JFK (not confirmed yet). 2xbased B747 2xbased A330-200 for Summer 2015.

Honestly didn't see that one coming! Hopefully this could see a new direction for Virgin where Manchester is not see solely as a leisure B747 base.

It will be sad to see Delta leave Manchester, but, I wonder if this frees up a frame for the long rumoured Detroit flights?

[LAX_LHR]

Delta to JFK now confirmed:

Network changes | Virgin Atlantic (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/gb/en/travel-information/customer-service/latest-news/network-changes.html)

A transfer of operations with joint venture partner Delta Air Lines that will see Virgin Atlantic fly a daily service between Manchester and Atlanta and Delta fly one of Virgin Atlantic’s existing London Heathrow to Newark services**. Across the joint venture, Virgin Atlantic and Delta Air Lines will now offer ten daily services from London to the New York area.
In addition, Delta Air Lines will launch a new daily service between Manchester and New York JFK in Summer 2015.

[kieb92]

Thats great news with 2 extra A330 based at MAN and now a new Delta JFK flight. So Delta still serving MAN is again great news plus Virgin.

2 new based A330? Do we know of what the 2nd aircraft may be used for? Presuming 1 will be for the Atlanta flight.

[adfly]

I think it will be 2 747 (MCO, BGI, LAS) and 1 A330 (ATL) as the JFK route is to be flown by Delta.

[LAX_LHR]

Im not sure what the 2nd A330 is used for, unless the announcement was a bit muffled and a 2nd A330 operates at MAN when GLA-LAS and BFS-MCO run on the B747? (so technically correct even if they are not all based at the same time)

[j636]

Any ideas what DL will fly to JFK. Last time round was it 752 or 763?

[LAX_LHR]

Apparently JFK will be B767-300 in the summer, B757 in the winter.

When Delta last ran, it was a B767-400 at the start, then B767-300, then B757-200.

[Skipness One Echo]

In addition, Delta Air Lines will launch a new daily service between Manchester and New York JFK in Summer 2015.
FFS it's not *new* in any reading of the word, good news all the less. It was overwhelmingly a B757 was it not?

[MKY661]

FFS it's not *new* in any reading of the word, good news all the less. It was overwhelmingly a B757 was it not?

If someone on Wikipedia puts (begins Summer 2015) then I'll change it to (resumes Summer 2015) :ok:

[All names taken]

Can't see why VS don't just fly the JFK instead.

As a regular user of MAN-ATL I can't say I'm happy at the prospect of DL being switched with VS.
The DL C Cabin is pretty good in my opinion and well patronised - often full even though the prices are often sky high. DL is I believe to be the best of the three major US carriers by some margin, mainly due to the better service on board - that good ol' southern hospitality ?????

I can see, if VS take it over, a more leisure based service on the route (or dare I say it a Mickey Mouse kind of service, as that is what VS is to me) with an overall inferior product. No doubt the inferior product will still be at the same price as the superior DL product.
That is going to make me think about other options in the future.

I've flown VS numerous times and never been really convinced by them.

[Bagso]

VS

Now that is more like the "gamechanger" we need , a "proper" increase

My cup brimeth over.....

[Skipness One Echo]

Now that is more like the "gamechanger" we need , a "proper" increase
How? It's a re-introduction of an exisiting and recently suspended service, it's in no way a game changer. Exisiting MAN-ATL are going to be less than impressed with the VS A330 Dream Suite when existing VS elites go out of their way to avoid it in favour of the older VS A346/ B744 version. The truth is in the numbers not the PR come on ! The product out of MAN will therefore be inferior to the B788 out of LHR and even the revamped existing Delta lie flat B763s which have been deployed into the London market.

It's a plus having JFK back for sure but losing ATL to Virgin is a retrograde step IMHO. Look closely at the focus here.

[MANFOD]

Skip, it doesn't surprise me that you've brought LHR into this, but I'm not quite clear what you are saying. You refer to Virgin Elites preferring the older A346/B744 and giving the A330 a miss, but are you suggesting that DL's regular J class pax from MAN will switch to travelling with VS or DL via LHR rather than flying direct. For starters, it would depend whether ATL was their final destination I would have thought, but even if it is they would have alternatives to LHR if they felt that strongly. They could even fly on the new JFK service from MAN with DL if it is a B763, although I accept transferring there is not ideal.

MAN claims that New York is vastly underserved so to get an extra daily service is a big boost, assuming AA & UA continue to operate it. I agree it is the re-introduction of a previously suspended service (a few years ago), but how can you refer to it as a re-introduction of an 'existing' service?

The only thing that crossed my mind regarding VS to ATL is whether it would have any impact on the 10/11 weekly flights to MCO.

[chinapattern]

Seems a very complicated way of doing things; I don't see why Virgin just didn't open up MAN-JFK and leave ATL to Delta.

[Armodeen]

Also posted on the DL website with timings

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=20295&item=124581

:ok:

[Bagso]

It's a gamechanger in terms of

"at least its an increase , and not a reduction"

Given the loss of ORD and reduction of other services this is positive news !

If one was mischievous one could imply they they cancelled Narita, Mumbai , Vancouver, etc and in effect reallocated part of the fleet to Manchester.......

don't choke Skip !

[MANFOD]

Do VS still operate the A333s with both a 3 class and 2 class configuration?

The 2 class has/had 314 seats and the 3 class 266 seats. I was under the impression they had all been converted to 3 class for LHR operations?

I took it Skip that you were being critical of Virgin's Business Class but then I started to wonder, is it definitely a 3 class that will operate MAN-ATL?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Very pleased by this VS/DL announcement. MAN-NYC in particular has been a real concern in recent times with just two B752's per day serving the route. This limited capacity has resulted in extremely high fares which further suppress the inherent demand for the route. A vicious circle has become established. However, from Summer 2015 we will have the daily Delta B763 and the new Thomas Cook A330 schedules in addition to whatever American and United decide to offer to New York. This additional capacity will take the Manchester - New York route back to levels which the airport has successfully supported in the past.

By the way, I'm surprised by the negative comments regarding deployment of Virgin A333's to MAN. I flew on G-VUFO quite recently and was impressed by the aircraft's interior and the service provided on board. I can't imagine why customers would be scurrying away to avoid this product. And if Virgin's new initiatives work well from MAN … with the support of Delta network connections stateside … VS seems far better placed to expand its future operations ex-MAN than Delta would be.

The jury is now out to see how other Transatlantic carriers respond. In particular, American / US Airways. Will MAN-CLT return? Will the combined carrier retain its four MAN routes? If MAN can hold on to these (plus the two UAL B752 operations) we finally have a chance to reverse the decline of MAN-USA capacity which can be traced all the way back to the loss of BMI's A332's and the daily BAW B763.

The bulk of MAN's long-haul good news has been coming from points East lately. It is satisfying to see signs of life returning to the North Atlantic market again.

[All names taken]

Take it from me as someone who has experienced the J/C product on both airlines multiple times this year - switching MAN-ATL from DL to VS is a backward step.

I would also be concerned about arriving on VS and transferring at ATL (as most do) as it becomes in effect inter-lining.
I have interlined between a DL national flight and a VS international flight as recently as two months ago and it was an irritating experience as the VS gate crew couldn't get my DL issued boarding pass to work on the scanner.
Priority boarding had gone right out of the window by the time they had sorted it.
I'll be avoiding the risks - like I say, I'll be looking for alternative routings after the switch.

[Armodeen]

The A333 also offers a significant seat gain over the B763 (I know we used to see more A332s in the recent past). DL via ATL is often the cheapest TATL option ex MAN and I doubt that adding VS into the mix will damage the route. VS has a decent reputation among UK economy travellers generally and the route is well established and often busy.

As for JFK they clearly felt the B763 was less risky for the restart than dropping an A333 on it, metal sharing in action!

[spannersatcx]

Sorry for being thick but where does it say additional 330's at MAN?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Under the new arrangements, Virgin will be supplying a very high number of transfer pax to Delta over ATL and vice-versa. Niggling problems with the scanners not processing the codeshare carrier's boarding cards are unlikely to persist for long in this environment. Getting the software engineers in is far cheaper than dealing with the fallout from missed / stressed connections. Hopefully, the gate staff will be reporting back on such occurrences too … with DL/VS working ever more closely together the two companies have every incentive to iron out IT issues of this nature quickly.

BTW, my impression is that Virgin Atlantic enjoys very positive market recognition in the North of England catchment. Whilst I have no firm data to fall back on, I suggest that the carrier is far better known / recognised than Delta in these parts. I would also see any interline demand for Florida via ATL as a bonus … remember that charter capacity on MAN-MCO/SFB is way down from its heyday (APD hasn't helped). The loads which formerly used the daily Travelcitydirect B743 are now combined with the pre-existing VIR B744 schedule; American Trans Air are long gone; Monarch appear set to abandon their last foothold in long-haul. Just Virgin, Thomas Cook and Thomson left. The last time I got a quote for MAN-MCO on Virgin the fare was eyewatering … if additional capacity via ATL can help that's fine by me!

[Bagso]

If MAN can hold on to these (plus the two UAL B752 operations) we finally have a chance to reverse the decline of MAN-USA capacity which can be traced all the way back to the loss of BMI's A332's and the daily BAW B763.


100% agree

Increase in capacity but crucially New York goes to 3 day, that is MORE like frequency of a major airport !
and dare I say it the Virgin foot print on social media (sorry said it again)is enormous !

Interestingly a reader of the M E N has now suggested a formal date for Hainan launch !

[LAX_LHR]

Spanners,

Ken O'Toole at MAN has said Virgin to use A330 in an MEN article on the news.

[All names taken]

SHED ON A POLE

you may be right about the perception of VS in the North of England but that is probably a leisure based perception. My comments relate to the DL business class product which I use a lot for work and which commands a decent following. The VS front end product is not as good, sorry, it just isn't and invites a perception of 'poshFlorida' rather than a serious minded J product.

There will be lots of enthusiasm amongst those myriad economy class Disney followers heading west no doubt, but at what expense to the premium passengers that used to enjoy the front end of the DL B763 with its lie flat beds etc.?

Time will tell I guess but I hope DL are not shooting themselves in the foot here.

[spannersatcx]

Spanners,

Ken O'Toole at MAN has said Virgin to use A330 in an MEN article on the news.
found it thanks.

[Bagso]

I do wish they would not use the term

Local Airport...

Rather than say "Gateway To The North"

Sorry it suggests

small, regional....etc Its not local if you live in Cleethorpes OR Windermere (still but a bloody site better than using LHR! )

Somebody please , please think.....we are not preaching to the M E N ....Manchester is thee major airport for Northern England and these puff PR pieces are being sent to other media outlets...just about !

It's an outstanding news day, make it count !

#punchfarhigher..!

[rkenyon]

I'm thinking this is a way for DL to quietly pull out of MAN. The JFK has failed before, so my bet would be that it gets dropped after next summer.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

If Delta's motive was genuinely to pull out of MAN by stealth, what better opportunity than the time when they're able to substitute codeshare-partner Virgin onto their existing MAN-ATL route? That would be seamless … no need for the charade of launching an unwanted MAN-JFK service at considerable cost. No, Delta and Virgin will aim to make these routes work. ATL is well-established; JFK is a tougher challenge. But aside from this, why would Delta require a ruse to exit 'quietly'? When an airline decides to dump a route they just dump the route. No sideshow required. Commercial aviation is no place for sentiment.

To see what this is really all about we need to look at the big picture. Virgin's efforts to become a serious player in long-haul markets globally have resulted in heavy losses. Delta is exposed to these. What we are seeing now is a strategic withdrawal from markets which are non-core to Delta's operation in favour of UK-US routes where synergies between the two carriers can be leveraged. Note that the four long-haul routes dropped by Virgin following this announcement are just the latest … the prestigious LHR-SYD route was another recent high-profile casualty. Note that the axed routes are NOT drawn from the UK-US portfolio. The LHR slots vacated are being redeployed on UK-US routes where the combined strength of DL/VS provides a heavyweight contender in the strategic North Atlantic market.

[Logohu]

Agree 100% with Shed's comments.

I further suggest the catalyst for the DL/VA moves is that LHR is full. Possibly these two airlines are coming to terms with the fact that they are not getting any more LHR slots for at least another 10-15 years, and only then if/when R3 is built. Therefore between them they need to :-

(1) squeeze as much profit out of their current LHR slot holding as possible (because they ain't getting any more !) and

(2) look beyond the LHR perimeter fence if they want to grow their alliance and their share of the UK/NAtlantic market. LGW is too close to LHR (they've both been there, done that), so they can only look elsewhere. MAN has a huge catchment, good and improving surface links, and two under-utilized runways for large swathes of the day. Maybe (just maybe) the penny is starting to drop in a few airline boardrooms !

[Bagso]

Logohu

"The penny is starting to drop in a few boardrooms"

My goodness Logohu that is a startling observation and one that a few of us had also considered. In no particular order you should be working for the


Airport Commission,
CBI,
Daily Telegraph


Apparently and it must be true because its been on all media apart from the Independent there are only two airports in the UK !

They are called Heathrow and Gatwick, they are really convenient for the UK because they are situated slap bang in the middle of the country, one is near London and the other near Brighton !

Unfortunately they are now as full as a full thing so they need a new runway ! This would be really good for business and is 100% supported by all the engineers, contractors , accountants who are advising the Government and will make lots of money by building it so it must be needed.

And its really frightening because these same engineers, contractors , accountants have said if we don't build another runway 200 miles away lots of people will go and live in Europe instead because they have airports that are empty !

Personally Logohu I really hope they choose Brighton , sorry Gatwick, this is actually nearer Paris than The North of England so in terms of planning would be absolutely ideal !

There was an idea to build a new airport in the Thames, which for Northern folk would have been brilliant and dead easy to get to (estimates vary between 5 and 7 hours)! but sadly that idea has now been dropped.

But what of this place Manchester, yes I know, like me your amased arn't you, I hadn't heard of this either !

But even more incredible Manchester sits in the middle of the UK in this vast catchment area of 20m people...check the map it sits just South of a place called Scotland (pop. 5m ) They are really lucky they are are not as big as Manchester but they got a bit restless, did a bit of shouting and now look....

Anyway back to Manchester it has motorway links to all these major cities in the North of England like Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds, AND get this, it EVEN has a train station, I know, exciting isn't it !

It has these two runways, three terminals and they are building these new industrial units right next door, this year lots of new airlines thought , that looks a good spot to do business and now we have a new airline called Virgin who want to use it !

Funnily enough Virgin said yesterday that rather than deploying aircraft to France and Holland and Germany like the engineers, contractors and accountants said they would, they have checked the map , scratched their head and thought hang on, why don't we use this place !

AND wait their is more good news, incredibly two more airlines are also going to join them, their the people building the new units !

So yes logohu it is a revelation, maybe word might spread ?

Ps I have Pm you

[Mr A Tis]

Very much a surprise this one.
DL is about the only US airline I would consider using. The ATL is very well supported & in summer can be overbooked. Used the service countless times in both classes.
Not sure how the VS will work with a single based airframe as presumably it wouldn't be interchangeable with the based beach fleet.
The last time I flew DL MAN-JFK was in 2000 it was a B763 & J class was full- I could never understand how they let the route flounder by messing with frequencies & types.
To be honest, I'd rather see them on a Boston run. DL have a fair hub at Boston-it's a relatively short sector & currently not served from MAN at all.
Delta are up against JetBlue at BOS and have been trying to bolster services from there to maintain market share.
Maybe VS/DL might add this at some point? I'd have thought BOS would have more potential than the sometimes rumoured Detroit.
None the less, the current changes are a nett gain...so half full...

[Skipness One Echo]

And its really frightening because these same engineers, contractors , accountants have said if we don't build another runway 200 miles away lots of people will go and live in Europe instead because they have airports that are empty !

Shed does this sort of thing way better Bagso.....

1) LHR's huge north atlantic connectivity does impact on MAN's ability to offer direct services as there is an immense amount of discounting available over the hub.
2) Most comparable countries have a single flag carrier that dominates their main hub, the UK is much more competitive where our main hub has a based legacy which dominates to a lesser extent than EK/LH/AF/KL do at their own homes.
3) The UK hub also has a world class new facility for the main alliance of it's main German competitor (STAR's new T2). As well as SkyTeam having T4.
4) London's position as a world city and one of / the most visited destination on the planet is going to skew matters in it's favour at the expense of regional focus.

So focus :
MAN-ATL's cost base is about to fall as SRB has not exactly paid his staff generously VS taking this one on is not going to go down well in Delta towers either I suspect, however as DL open JFK yet again, expect American to walk away as the route seems unlikely to be upguaged to a B763 now US Airways and Philly are on board. I would be surprised if CLT actually returned next year but time will tell. This is all about maximising revenue and cutting costs, a focus VS have been missing of late.
In the year of the Scottish Referendum / Divorce, which as a Scot I don't even get a vote in, I keep seeing the old chippy shoulder card being played time and time again. People should try and understand business is seldom personal, if the numbers support something, it will happen. The biggest mistake politicians think is that they have "levers of power" they can pull to make things happen when most of the time, that's actually a myth.

[take-off]

Good news for some , with the expansion of virgin flights from Man,even if it is swapping some with Delta. there obviously had to be some reaction from Virgin , what with all the new long haul from Tcx and Thomson and not forgetting , Virgin Holidays recently expanded and growing network of travel shops in the likes of tesco, and other large dept stores throughout the northwest, need something more than Florida and The Carribean to sell, not everyone wants to trek to London, to get to the rest of the world, on the plus side to , will this not bring more jobs to the area ?:ok::ok:

[Logohu]

Bagso.

We’re on the same team and (I think) we’re saying the same thing – I just used rather less words….

It’s great that airlines appear to be seeing the potential of opening or expanding at an additional UK gateway or gateways. It would be nice to think the recent return (or announcement of) more services at MAN by the likes of SV, AC, CX and now DL/VS is the start of a sustainable trend.

The point is that even if an extra runway at LHR or LGW gets the nod tomorrow, and LHR is clearly most needed, it will be 10-15 years before the first aircraft lands on it. MAN (and to a lesser extent a few others) is therefore in an excellent position to capitalize on the gridlock in the south-east by courting airlines who want/need to grow their coverage of the UK.

There’s nothing quite like a capacity crunch at your most profitable and only gateway to concentrate the mind of an airline planner. And even the most spreadsheet driven airlines tend towards the herd mentality occasionally – where one goes, others do the maths and sometimes follow. The airport’s job is to make sure they choose MAN, rather than go elsewhere.

Some airlines of course will be happy to sit it out in the waiting rooms of LGW or STN until new runway capacity at LHR becomes available. Other arguably more forward thinking airlines will see the opportunities offered by the large catchment areas of a more centrally located second gateway like MAN, many of whose constituents or visitors already choose to fly via European or Middle East hubs rather than the south east UK.

Bottom line is it’s the airlines that MAN has to convince, not the Davies Commission, CBI or Daily Telegraph (and no thanks, I don’t want to work for any of them). It’s the airlines who decide where and when they are going to fly, and who stand to make or lose the most money by doing so.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

First those Scousers nabbed Mario Balotelli … now it's Andrew Cornish! Liverpool Airport have a new CEO in the form of ex-Manchester Airport MD Andrew Cornish. He certainly brings plenty of insight into strategy at the competition. It seems we are in a week of big surprises ...

[MANFlyer]

Add me to the list of those slightly concerned by VS taking over ATL. I use DL and ATL for most of my NA trips at the moment and if they can keep the transfer in ATL as seamless as it is now, then fair enough. But if not then it will ruin what is easily the best way for MAN based pax to transit on their way around North America. DL have good flat seats, great crew and a great hub. I say this as someone who knows a few of the VS MAN based crew and as 'lovely' as they undoutedly are, providing top service on board would not figure high on the list of priorities for a few of them...

I just used rather less words....

:D

If only.....

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Yep … Andrew … isn't that what I said?

[Bagso]

You did.....just zapped it.

That said I think he stopped off at Aer Lingus en route to Liverpool

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Further to the Ryanair discussion simmering on the Liverpool thread, just a little observation. Following a lengthy hiatus, Ryanair is finally about to start accepting delivery of new-build B738's again. I have read elsewhere that the first unit of the 175-strong order is all painted up and ready to join the fleet.

According to 'Jethro's' site, 75 of the new aircraft will replace older units from the existing fleet whilst 100 will represent fleet expansion. It will be interesting to observe how Ryanair play this … whether the imminent new deliveries will be straight fleet expansion or whether early disposal of older frames will take priority. For the last couple of years, Ryanair capacity increases at growing bases have been the result of moving frames around from one base to another. Now the opportunity again exists to grow a base with new-delivery units straight off the production line.

Let's watch how RYR play it. Obviously, plans announced for the STN programme suggest extra units needed there. And of course there are bases all across the continent which I haven't tracked closely. But at least we're moving back into an environment in which MAN could eventually gain an extra frame or two without the need to cannibalise another base. Fingers crossed!

[MANFOD]

Ryanair

On the LPL thread, it mentions that it currently looks like 7 based a/c for MAN for S2015. the same as this summer, but more flights. I thought we only have 6 based at present or am I out of date?

[FRatSTN]

In Summary, based on June 2015, Manchester has:


7 based aircraft
35 destinations
193 return flights per week


It appears Bremen has been dropped and Reus only currently scheduled to operate in August 2015.


However new routes starting this winter and the odd frequency increase here and there results in a small overall increase in the number of weekly flights compared to the same period this year.


Still very early days but it seems at the moment in time, onwards and upwards for FR at MAN. (In reality there's little reason why they'd cut flights now but you never know, so any new routes between now and next spring should bring an even bigger bonus).

[LAX_LHR]

Bremen will operate. Currently, most MAN routes not on sale, schedules to be amended around Jan. Also expected to be 8 based.

[FRatSTN]

LAX LHR


I kind of hope so. The schedule is no shambles by any means, it looks as if it makes sense and clearly showing 7 a/c at the moment.


The only thing is that it looks very peaky. MAN has always been quite peaky for FR flights (I think because they fly a lot of non-based aircraft in from Europe around the same time) but looks particularly so next year. There's some quite large gaps in the day where not a lot happens and then other times where they have maybe 10+ flights in an hour.

[Bagso]

Did I read somewhere that Thomas Cook are putting Scandinavian pax thru MAN for the USA routes ?

We trod this path with Condor/FlyBe ...has it re-emerged ?

[LAX_LHR]

They appear to be doing so Bagso. Im also sure I had seen the flybe/TCX transfers were still going?

In terms of growth from the low costs, one that appears not to be growing is Norwegian. Next summers schedules have been put on the site, Stavanger/Stockholm continue at a measly 2 weekly each, and now Oslo has intermittent periods of 2 weekly too.

Seems the North West is just one market Norwegian don't seem to be able to crack, or are reluctant to do so.

[LN-KGL]

I will not ignore the fact that Norwegian has been training Virgin Atlantic's 787 pilots the last months. Maybe more information has flown between VS and DY?

[Armodeen]

I will not ignore the fact that Norwegian has been training Virgin Atlantic's 787 pilots the months. Maybe more information has flown between VS and DY?

Or some cash?