MANCHESTER - 9

[j636]

Well done Manchester!

Steady on, I'm sure immergration at MAN help reduced the "real" waiting times for baggage.

[pwalhx]

Didn't take long for someone to come up with a negative did it. Howver not sure what immergration is.

However reading the article 'all respondents were then asked ‘Baggage carousels aside, what do you consider to be the most time consuming aspect of the airport experience in the UK?’ to which the majority of respondents, 33 per cent, stated ‘security/customs’. As well as this, respondents also considered ‘check in’ (27 per cent) and ‘boarding’ (21 per cent) to be some of the most time consuming aspects of travelling via an airport.' No mention of immigration although I guess Joe public may refer to that as customs.

[LAX_LHR]

In terms of leaving it to a survey to see how long people wait at baggage carousels, surely the handling agents can, on request, supply the times from chocks on to first bags, or, is it only certain airlines/companies who record this for targets etc?

That way, its could provide a more accurate, and surely larger demographic, of waiting times (this survey size was a couple of thousand compared to the x million people who actually do fly per year).

For example, flight XYZ111 arrives at 1200 if Mrs Jones gets off the plane at 1205, then queues at immigration until 1235, and waits until 1245 for her bags, then she may only record for a 10 minute wait, whereas the bags actually took 45 minutes to arrive.

On the flipside Mr Bloggs gets off the plane at 1204, queues at immigration until 1215 but waits until 1245 at the same carousel as Mrs Jones, his bag wait time will be 30 minutes, so already there is a 'discrepancy'.

Therefore Chocks on (1200) until 1st bags (1245) is the more accurate measure.

[750XL]

First and last bag times are all recorded by the airport systems (In MAN's case, Chroma) and are all important to airlines, scheduled carriers especially, it's usually written into the handling contract.

One of the MEB3 expect first bag to be on the carousel 10mins after 'on chocks'.

[PhilW1981]

Lots of experience on this one at MAN. Different handling agents have massively differing performance. Emirates flights are usually spot on, BA is always touch and go either way as are Thomson and Ryanair. Monarch and easyjet are horrific. Not sure of the handling agents for each respective airline.

[750XL]

Airlines like Emirates will always shout the loudest, and as such, will usually always get the service they want from handling agents. Those airlines without their own ground staff and who do not actively monitor handling agent performance will continue to get a sh!te service from the two big handling agents at MAN :ok:

[PhilW1981]

So why don't all airlines monitor performance?

Personal record with Emirates was 8 minutes from doors opened to in car on the way home. (albeit from First) On the flip side Monarch, cleared immigration within 15 minutes of doors open, (from row 15 of a 321) and then waited a further 55 minutes for luggage.

In the case of the latter, immigration wasn't a factor, purely down to poor baggage delivery.

[easyflyer83]

Whilst I'm sure EK et al are demanding upon the airport/handling agents there are other carriers who have the airport jumping through hoops, and they aren't necessarily the airlines you expect.

[j636]

Didn't take long for someone to come up with a negative did it. Howver not sure what immergration is.

Was not being negative just saying it may not be as clear as the PR around it. As for the miss spelling it was predictive text that changed it.

LAX explained my point much better!

[j636]

American are putting the 757 back on ORD 19 August.

AA/US merger shown lots of changes, first CLT cut by around 4 weeks and now 763 being replaced mid season to a 757.

[kieb92]

Fedex A300 on approach to MAN. N727FD as FDX9063

[Ringwayman]

The CLT route starts today and AA is expecting American passengers to make up most of the market and not the MAN catchment, and they hope to run it for longer next year according to the Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/american-airlines-first-flight-manchester-7161028)

[MANFOD]

Thanks for the M.E.N. story Ringwayman. The publicity should please Bagso.

Looking at available seats on the web site for the CLT flights in the first few days, (I know this is only a guide), bookings look reasonable - only 2 seats showing today for the outbound. Perhaps later in June early July will be a better test when there are no school holidays.

Disappointing that Chicago is going back to a B757 so early. From a quick look, it does however appear to be daily in the winter at this stage, unless someone knows differently. I had a feeling it went down to 5 or 6 weekly some years.
On the other hand, PHL is shown as a A333 on certain days I checked but I guess that could change also.

On yesterday's diversions, apart from an EI that went to BHX and the AY to AMS, the rest were all BA as far as I know, to LGW, BHX, NCL and MAN. It still
surprises me how long some of those long haul flights are able, and prepared, to hold for LHR. There were some serious delays yesterday and I was curious how much longer some of them could have held out before diverting as I imagine the length of delay was not easily predictable.

[ATNotts]

j636

As for the miss spelling it was predictive text that changed it.

Suggestion from old fogie - try disabling useless technology, end engaging useful brain!!

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Suggestion from old fogie - try disabling useless technology, end engaging useful brain!!

Oh the irony of it:ouch::ouch:

[Bagso]

Yes..Mr Manfod rejoicing in Bagso towers hopefully they have put out some PR in CLT as well. But I doubt it !

Still bemused that despite claiming to represent a catchment area of 2 hours they only ever seem to be able to generate any PR in the M E N , a relatively narrow geographic and demograhic channel !

[blue_ashy]

Re MANFOD -

It's pretty annoying that capacity is being decreased and also that people are seemingly under the illusion that the demand isn't there hence the downgrading of equipment. The problem is the prices. The prices certainly don't point to any problems in filling seats. It all smells to me like airlines are consolidating operations so that they can charge top dollar for a smaller amount of seats.

An example of this is I want to make our yearly summer trip to Florida and to fly to the USA in mid-July it will cost me £5,5k for 5 people to get to Miami. Considering it will cost 2k in food, at least 2k in hotel costs... Going to Florida just isn't possible this year. We have even considered going MAN-MCO with Virgin and then driving down. Low and behold though Virgin are charging exactly the same for one flight as it would cost to go on 2 via JFK/ORD with AA or with US Airways via PHL/CLT to MIA.

I paid 2,5k for 5 people to go via LHR to MIA with BA a few years ago, why it is double this year across the board with capacity being increased I just cannot fathom.

[Curious Pax]

Depends how long a few years ago was. The levels of APD tax, and the rise in fuel price has made a significant difference to prices compared to (say) 2007. Having said that a quick search of one of the price websites shows MAN-MIA via Charlotte for £825 (so £4,250 for 5) going out July 14th, returning July 29th, so may be not quite as bad as you think.

[LNIDA]

open skies between the USA & Europe was meant open up competition, all that's happened is the legacy carriers have code shares and alliances and are using this power to make a killing on these routes to prop up other loss making routes, why do you think they have launched a major assault in the US to stop Norwegian flying between Europe and the USA?

[All names taken]

BLUE ASHY

Won't help you this year but next year Thomas Cook will be doing non-stop MAN-Miami.
Apart from the convenience of a non-stop, I imagine they will be cheaper than the legacies.
I would book now for next year to get the best deals if I were you.

[ATNotts]

Suggestion from old fogie - try disabling useless technology, end engaging useful brain!!
Oh the irony of it

Looks like my brain is only marginally more useful than technology!!!!

[LAX_LHR]

The CLT route starts today and AA is expecting American passengers to make up most of the market and not the MAN catchment, and they hope to run it for longer next year according to the Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/american-airlines-first-flight-manchester-7161028)

Given it is unlikely that AA will cut JFK, ORD or PHL as they are the stronger of the 4 routes, this is the first positive indication that AA will be 4 daily still next year despite many across several forums suggesting that it was unlikely to be 4 daily next year.

[LAX_LHR]

Regarding Charlotte flights, another interesting quote from Clive Cook at American Airlines:


The route will begin as a seasonal, but if there's demand, we'll look at the potential for a year round service."


Also:


Ken O'Toole, commercial director at Manchester Airports Group, said his team were looking next at increasing the frequency of flights to New York as well as bringing a direct Beijing route in the coming months


With Air China applying for an addendum to the UK-China bilateral, I wonder if this is bearing fruit as 'coming months' to me quite certain and pretty much a sealed deal (I say this as announcing that a China flight I imminent without the security of a done deal could pave the way for other airports to swoop in with a counter offer). Its not the first time in recent months that its been announced a China flight is only a short wait away.

Rest of the article (it is free registration only):

International Trade / American Airlines begins Manchester-Charlotte service THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/621604-american-airlines-begins-manchester-charlotte-service.html?news_section=273985)

[Skipness One Echo]

There's nothing wrong with cross subsidising some poor performing routes so long as you keep a good balance....

The people doing the Charlotte PR are saying the expected marketing script and prose, there's nothing unusual there, however no decision has been made on a route that's just begun. Post merger AA Charlotte may be a little different, those decisions will be fought over but marketing PR is the ladt place to look for guidance on what will happen next year. The whole point of the merger is to consolidate and focus market presence thereby strengthening yields, cutting costs and redeploying capacity where AA and US used to compete where suitable.

Btw Hong Kong is in China......just saying ;) I assume you mean "another".

[Ringwayman]

I wonder if the "coming months" for a mainland China route could be more pinpointed to between 9th and 13th June when there'll be an Airport City roadshow - it's going to Beijing, Shanghai and Shenzhen. Could be an ideal time with bit of Chinese exposure?

[Bagso]

Re CLT Marketing

AA person says most pax are from USA....therefore, and this "might" be visionary / radical !

..why not send the PR to the media at the CLT end.

Preaching to the MEN guarantees limited coverage here but may be meaningless ...and its a limited geographic area For God sake !

We have something called email, twitter, facebook with massive reach and its free.......

Contact the Editor of the CLT Star , Dwight Diddly Bumbum and get some PR over there , bloody hell this is simple basic stuff that they could give to an apprentice to at a junior level !

[LAX_LHR]

The people doing the Charlotte PR are saying the expected marketing script and prose


But most marketing I have seen usually centres around 'route doing well', 'happy to be serving the route' or 'supports X number of jobs' etc.

Specific details about future scenarios, such as extending to year round, or adding more flights etc normally comes into play when some behind the scenes scenarios have been discussed in depth.

For example, Saudia stated 'we are looking at adding more flights to Manchester by the end of the year'. Hey presto, a 4th flight is already appearing in some GDS systems.

Therefore, 'look at potential go year round' announced to the public, to me translates to 'we have done some sums, had some meetings and its actually quite a serious proposition should the route perform how we expect'.

[Skipness One Echo]

Therefore, 'look at potential go year round' announced to the public, to me translates to 'we have done some sums, had some meetings and its actually quite a serious proposition should the route perform how we expect'.
Of course it is, the US guys are fighting as hard as they can to make sure as much of former US Airways has a future in the new American. However that is a fluid situation and the decisions around transatlantic strategy will be driven out of Dallas and not Phoenix. Whatever happens I have no doubt this is a good opportunity for MAN, but decisions will be made around the basis of the B757 leaving sooner rather than later I believe.

btw you should change your location in the box on the left :)

[Suzeman]

Btw Hong Kong is in China......just saying I assume you mean "another".

AFAIK Hong Kong has a separate bilateral arrangement with the UK to that of the rest of China

[tattbenj]

Does anyone know what's happened to today's EK18? The MAN website doesn't say anything and neither does EK or The EK Source

[LAX_LHR]

Reported elsewhere, AA to Charlotte had 155 in 170 out. Quite encouraging!

Also, the flynas load increased by a huge margin today, it had 67!! :}

[Una Due Tfc]

Check your PMs

[Bagso]

And 67 pax outbound, whilst undoubtedly well short of break even, marks a very encouraging jump for the FlyNas service. Maybe the message is getting out at last.

Quoting somebody who always talks some good sense on here and on this occasion on another forum !

What made FlyNas choose Manchester ? They had 200+ major airports across Europe and they chose us, am I missing something, does that not deserve a bit of support ?

Given the catchment area in terms of demographics this market re Hajj, Makkah etc could be huge !

Surely its not difficult to promote a "destination" rather than being seen to promote one airline over another if that is their concern ?

It's MAG / Manchester that has the regional knowledge to promote ALL these routes from here.

They know where the major media outlets in the NWest, NWales, Potteries and South Yorkshire are, local Radio stations / regional newspapers etc and if they don't somebody needs a p45 !

Widening the remit they must have contacts groups for influential gamechangers such as Business, Civic Leaders, Community/Religous Leaders , Tourism Chiefs etc

....AND in reverse they MUST surely have the nous to seek out similar organisations in the Countries of origin of these flights !

Sorry I simply do not get this narrow minded "Tell The M.E.N. " er job done attitude because that is where route announcements start and indeed invariably stop !

They still seem to be using a PR model from 30 years ago, good God its 2014 !

As was quoted by another poster BA/AA have a massive number of flights from LHR, in the face of overwhelming competition MAN really does have to fight its corner.

The country is hypnotised by the London Centricism of Westminster, nobody is going to help "The North" apart from "The North" so it really is about time somebody got stuck in, and Man Airport as a major conduit to business and tourism inward and outward, AND with these "opportunities" is in pole position to lead that charge .............

[LAX_LHR]

Cant help but notice Brussels Airlines now use the A319 on 2 of the 3 flights this summer.

[Skipness One Echo]

AA to Charlotte
They're not dead just yet, the carrier remains US Airways.

As was quoted by another poster BA/AA have a massive number of flights from LHR, in the face of overwhelming competition MAN really does have to fight its corner.
In what terms? I'm sorry you're just ranting bagso. What are you fighting? What's "victory"? UK passengers can choose to fly MAN-LHR-xyz or MAN-US Legacy Hub-xyz, both options have good pricing. United and Delta also offer good options over LHR as so VS with Little Red. I assume you want Little Red closed so everyone has to fly over the US hub and connect there. Either way, the MAN-US market is not infinite. In terms of "much cheapness" connecting over LHR, those are the people you don't want flying on UA/US/AA/DL out of MAN as that sort of yield isn't matched by insane London prices down the front. You need to let the super price conscious customers connect over LHR, as that keeps the yield on MAN-US decent.

[Bagso]

What on earth are you going on about Skippy?

Who mentioned "Victory", "connecting over "London", "Little Red " ?

------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll clarify in simple terms for the hard of understanding !

If a food manufacturer brings out a new product they have to have a vehicle to sell it, they could use direct sell via the internet or more likely a retailer like ASDA TESCO.

That retailer therefore has a vested interest in "promoting" and "marketing" the product as they need to make a margin to cover costs and make a profit.

If you walk into ASDA you might see something called "advertising", it can cost money BUT cunningly using the internet and using Facebook, Twitter, Email you can also do this for free !

It's a great way to tell your audience what you are doing and how you can provide them with a service that they "may" want !

They could of course leave it to the manufacturer but hey its that "vested interest" again !

Manchester Airport provide the infastructure to sell their services, they make money on landing fees BUT as has been well documented they make more money from what might be described as peripheral activity which is now at the core of their business plan. Therefore in My World it makes perfect sense to promote what the airlines have to offer as potentially Man Airport will ultimately benefit indirectly from the indirect profits of higher footfall !

If therefore AA/USAir start a flight from a new City in the US, by all means use the local mouthpiece that you have been using for 30 years to tell the locals what's going on, BUT use other "free" marketing tools to extol the virtues of using your product over the opposition !

I'll simplify further.

If a businessperson in North Carolina is wishing to export a product and sees that there is a major tradeshow representing his product on in Manchester or indeed The North Of England, will he book a ticket via Heathrow because he assumes "Englondon" or "LondonLand" has only one airport ?

Will he choose price ?

Will he choose frequency ?

OR indeed due to lack of knowledge maybe he doesn't even know that we even have a direct flight !

At least he is aware that said service exists if he has.......

Read the Charlotte Observer
Watched the local TV affiliate WSOC Business round up
OR Dealt with his local trade association

He may even be a follower of those media outlets and local business chamber on facebook, twitter etc etc

This does of course assume "somebody" issues a press release to a targeted audience in the Charlotte OR North Carolina region to let somebody "over there" know reinforcing same with regular updates.

At least then our Amercan friend (fully armed, so to speak) can decide exactly what he wants to do...

A direct flight to Manchester ?

OR

if he so wishes in a free democratic country a flight to Heathrow and a connection via little Red !

Touche

[anothertyke]

Marketing an airport is kind of weak. What strikes me is how bad the North is at marketing its tourist and other assets relative to Scotland, Ireland and the South. You would think there ought to be a big market for the people who have done the London-Oxford-Stratford circuit and would like to do more. Then flying conveniently direct from half a dozen US gateways can be part of a bigger story. I suspect everyone in the US has heard of London but beyond that, a lot have only the vaguest idea of the geography, let alone the cultural and scenic assets.

[Mr A Tis]

Most American tourists do Europe in a fortnight. Fly to London - Paris - Rome - Venice - Amsterdam - back to US. Not likely to want to see the Stockport hat museum, or the great wall of Piccadilly Gardens. If there is any marketing budget, I suspect it's being targeted east, where most of the inbound VFR tourist & business is likely to be generated. More so, if they - UK GOV-sorted out the China visa nonsense & costs.3

[MAN777]

I have just spent a couple of hours in Piccadilly gardens (doing some commercial photography) I was amazed by the number and diversity of overseas tourists, not quite like the tourist honeypots of London yet but definately there are significant numbers breaking away from the Europe in 2 weeks crowd. I dont know if this is fact but I have been told Manchester has passed Edinburgh in terms of visitor numbers ? Making it number 2 in the UK.

[Bagso]

What strikes me is how bad the North is at marketing its tourist and other assets relative to Scotland, Ireland and the South.

Precisely why the airport and associated agencies up here need to do get their proverbial marketing backside in gear because nobody else will !

Not helped however by the utter @@@ that is @visitbritain !

Here we really need a smiley face icon with a singular erect finger !

Check out the images on page 1 to see where this site promoted by central Government is going, London Cab, Knotting Hill Festival , Bucks House, it may as well be called visitLondon.

Helpful discounts for The London Eye, Oyster Cards but every other "English" region can take the high road.

The page references outside London appear begrudging, there is little balance !

As for the page re getting here from abroad..... yes its Heathrow !

Whilst there are links to Wales and Scotland, AND London which incredibly ALSO has its own site, there is barely anything to suggest worth visiting in The North, this despite the fact that Manchester is indeed number 2 inward destination after London.

Chatsworth less than an hour from MAN is the second most popular stately home in the UK precisely the type of market for US/ Chinese tourist agencies assuming somebody tells them they do not have to use LHR !

Lake District, Peak District, Chatsworth, Chester, York, Golf Coast, N Wales Castles .... are you there !

PS ...I'll tip my hat to Stockport, hardly that bad, AND at least only 15mins from the utterly gorgeous High Peak, Beats Buckingham Palace and those lovely London hotspots, although beneath this flimsy veneer I raise you Tower Hamlets, Newham, Tooting, Hackney, et al, AND only 5 minutes away. !

[Skipness One Echo]

Manchester has not overtaken Edinburgh as a tourist destination.

[ATNotts]

Bagso

Check out the images on page 1 to see where this site promoted by central Government is going, London Cab, Knotting Hill Festival , Bucks House, it may as well be called visitLondon.

Helpful discounts for The London Eye, Oyster Cards but every other "English" region can take the high road.

The page references outside London appear begrudging, there is little balance !

As for the page re getting here from abroad..... yes its Heathrow !

Have to agree with you 100% on that. This would never happen in some other countries. Visit England is actually "Visit London" - and if you bored of London (how dare you!!) there a few other places around England that may possible, perhaps worth seeing - but be warned, they don't necessarily have red buses and jolly policemen!!!

Scotland has it's own machine - N.Ireland has thrown it's lot in with the (very successful) Bord Faillte. Yorkshire, to their great credit, market themselves.

If Visit England is funded from national taxation then it is an absolute travesty - funding should come from Boris's coffers.

On the tourism theme, it would a good idea if our hotels and attractions actually realised the whole world doesn't speak English - but sadly most websites are devoid of even one non English language - thus making the UK even more difficult to negotiate for many European travelers who consider their english to be below par. Contrast and compare with many small, family run hotels and gasthofs in Germany for example.

[Skipness One Echo]

funding should come from Boris's coffers.
London does rather cross subsidise a lot of the largesse being showered on the poorer regions mind, but I think we're getting a little off topic and into the realm of JetBlast...
If London was a country on it's own terms, the GDP alone would be pretty impressive, success breeds success. If the rest of the country is to succeed it needs to do so on it's own merits and not compared against a world city like London.
What MAN needs, is a Gil Thomson for the 21st century to pull all the disparate threads together and really drive a proper inbound tourism and business benefit. I would make the further point that the concept of MAG, as a group, in itself takes focus from Manchester Airport.

[Capetonian]

I've spent about 10 days in Manchester over the last couple of months. Some attractive contemporary and traditional buildings in the city centre and some good eateries. The Metrolink is brilliant, last week I stayed out in Salford Quays which I found very pleasant and convenient. Plenty to see there and in the city and surrounding areas. The city has a bad reputation but look under the surface and there are plenty of worse towns in the UK.

On balance I prefer Liverpool, it has more character and history, but Manchester has its own charm and I'm always happy to go there. It does need to be better marketed.

[Suzeman]

Bagso old bean

Whilst you are quite right to lambast Visit England, your constant criticism of what you perceive to be MA's Marketing Strategy being only in the MEN is getting rather like a stuck record.

Re CLT Marketing

AA person says most pax are from USA....therefore, and this "might" be visionary / radical !

..why not send the PR to the media at the CLT end........

Contact the Editor of the CLT Star , Dwight Diddly Bumbum and get some PR over there , bloody hell this is simple basic stuff that they could give to an apprentice to at a junior level ![/QUOTE]

The press release done by MAN and US Air was certainly in the press there when the route was announced. How do you know what else there is? Are you constantly monitoring all the media outlets in the States?

And how do you know that, given the quote from the AA person in the States, that AA is not marketing the route there? Are you an AA frequent flyer living in the States? Has there been anything sent to them about it? I have no idea and I suspect you haven't either.

What about MAN working with Charlotte Airport at that end? Are you privy to what is going on there with their Chamber of Commerce and other business organisations that CLT will work with. And AA/US working with tour operators at that end? These things won't be on any public forum that you or I see.

Widening the remit they must have contacts groups for influential gamechangers such as Business, Civic Leaders, Community/Religous Leaders , Tourism Chiefs etc

....AND in reverse they MUST surely have the nous to seek out similar organisations in the Countries of origin of these flights !

Do you know that they don't? Do you know how it works? Most of it goes on behind the scenes - not in the public gaze. Have you any evidence to show that these channels are not being used?

They know where the major media outlets in the NWest, NWales, Potteries and South Yorkshire are, local Radio stations / regional newspapers etc and if they don't somebody needs a p45 !

How do you know they don't contact all these media outlets you mention above? It's one thing to send them the information; a very different thing to get it in the paper or broadcast where it will be competing with very local news and sometimes the press release will only go in as a space filler. I'm sure you must monitor all these to be able to accuse the airport of getting nothing in them?

Preaching to the MEN guarantees limited coverage here but may be meaningless ...and its a limited geographic area For God sake !
and

Sorry I simply do not get this narrow minded "Tell The M.E.N. " er job done attitude because that is where route announcements start and indeed invariably stop !

I think you are so way off beam here. Just because that is all you see in the MEN (the same group also control most of the local Manchester area free and local papers) DOESN'T mean that there aren't lots of things going behind the scenes to inform and influence Chambers of Commerce, interested business groups, ethnic groups and tourism groups. These meetings and contacts have no public minutes or press releases, so YOU and I won't know about them. But the important influencers should be getting the message.

The proof of the pudding is whether all parties - airports and airlines - have a an effective marketing plan and the route is a success.

[Airfrance7]

Maybe tourists have heard how an Emirates A380 EK18 on Saturday 24th was delayed for over three hours because a push back tug had broken down and it took three hours to replace it with an similar push back tug......! When travellers have connection flights to catch this clearly is just not good enough. This does Manchester no favours when Swissport or TCR do not have appropriate cover in case of mechanical problems.

[Bagso]

The press release done by MAN and US Air was certainly in the press there when the route was announced. How do you know what else there is? Are you constantly monitoring all the media outlets in the States?

Not constantly, infact I do have a life, so its a very casual observation but If it cannot be found in the obvious places by potential passengers when the route actually starts, (and periodically referenced) they (potential passengers) won't know the flights exists, de facto you fly to London because that's the way its always been.

Frankly just putting in a number of keywords Manchester- Charlotte- launch- route-service new etc will identify pretty quickly any reference to a new service in the public domain !

These things won't be on any public forum that you or I see.


Well no if AA contact there frequent flyers I agree but do you not target all the potential market in the region not just "some" passengers who have flown with you before ? My God if that is the sum total of the effort it WILL be a limited target audience.

AND as for MAN contacting the North Carolina Chambers Of Commerce who then circulate in a private forum ?

...well to be honest Suzeman that is ludicrous, all they have to do is a free tweet on "their" feed or a facebook reference.

Its exactly what every other company advertising a product would do, its the whole point of social media re Twitter, facebook, instagram etc.

-------------------------------------------------------

There are a number of tools you can use to see market information, press releases etc

RSS (at the other end of your target market where you identify "obvious" websites that SHOULD be used).

Google alerts

PRWeb

Other than the MEN, CIT Magazine and Planet Confidential which are over here there has not been any other references.

I take your point that just because you issue a press release it may not necessarily be published, but I would then contest if you do not get any coverage at all ........maybe you are doing it wrong , Holmes!

I will turn it round Suzeman, if you feel that there has been comprehensive coverage in the US then you show "ME" where the launch of Charlotte - Manchester was covered which is after all where the service originates ?

YES, first port of call should be AA its "their" service but given they may be somewhat lukewarm as they inherited this by default, it surely falls on Manchester to get the message out there as they will benefit more so than the airline.

Lets be clear given the Tsunami of flights into London by AA and indeed via codeshares with BA, this service is pretty small fry BUT to Manchester its another major spoke so needs as much coverage as poss !

And there are simple things that can be done , like getting the route mentioned on the CLT web page, pretty sure if somebody emailed them they would add it to their news feed (not there as at today) !

If load factors are good and they make money it places more pressure on them at the end of what will sadly be a period of grace to maintain the route !

May sound like an old record Suze but I am right as well as modest :ok:

[LAX_LHR]

This does Manchester no favours when Swissport or TCR do not have appropriate cover in case of mechanical problems.

Agreed its not great, but, its no worse that the A380 itself suffering a mechanical fault (which it has done several times at MAN alone), so its hardly indicative of a prototypical situation. Just like Emirates cannot just miraculously produces a spare A380 out of a hangar at MAN, they may have only had one tug (and when you only have 1 A380 flight per day, is hardly a worrying situation).

Things break occasionally, its a fact of life. Hardly a massive issue.

[TURIN]

Oh give over LAX!

It's an international airport. Are you telling me there is only one tug with the capacity to push a 380? :*

[Ian Brooks]

Quite probably as they are very expensive pieces of kit and as things are
at present the handling agent probably cannot justify an extra one

Ian

[Skipness One Echo]

Is a B744 tug really not up to the job? btw who are "TCR" in terms of handling?

[LAX_LHR]

It's an international airport. Are you telling me there is only one tug with the capacity to push a 380?


Why not? When you only have 2 A380 movements per day, with little prospect of more due to the limited number of A380 stands, then why would you have dozens of A380 capable tugs either sat around doing nowt?

There may well be a 2nd or even 3rd on site, but if they were owned by another company and that company refused to help, it could hardly have been MAN's fault that company politics came into play.

Like I say, things break. And frankly, I think there are bigger things to worry about in life. Just seems strange that an OOS tug, on 1 movement out of hundreds that take place per day seems to be bringing the airport into 'disrepute'. Obviously not a lot else going on if this is at the forefront of peoples minds......

[Airfrance7]

Don't TCR lease all ground handling equipment to Swissport? Poor maintenance issues!

[easyflyer83]

I must admit these things happen from time to time. Far from ideal, not a great experience for pax but far from scandalous. These types of thing happen occasionally and it isn't unique to MAN.

In this specific case, what others have said is true. There is only one A380 a day being pushed back, an expensive piece of equipment used for 90 seconds. There aren't going to be an abundance of A380 tugs when they hardly get used. Now if this became a regular problem then obviously there might be some cause for concern but there is no indication that it is or that it will be.

[LAX_LHR]

Tue 3rd and Wed 4th June, Delta will use the A330-200 instead of B767-300 on the DL64/65.

[Bagso]

Do we have a glimmer on pax re todays FlyNas

[LAX_LHR]

19 in 26 out by all accounts.

Saudia was 185 in 131 out yesterday.

[Bagso]

Many Thanks Lax

[Skipness One Echo]

On the A380 tug, do they really have a tug for this single daily movement? At PIK, they use a B744 tug for AN124s so am curious if they have a bespoke tug for the A380. Who are TCR? I thought Emirates were handled by Swissport?

Cheers!

[Lord Toofouright]

Forgive me bretheren and forgive me also if I'm talking tripe, but am I to assume that THE tug that's capable of pushing back the Daily A.380 can / is only used for that one movement?

If so then it truly is an expensive piece of kit to have lying around all day just for one movement and would definitely preclude having "A spare" one lying around !

If it is not the case and these tugs can be employed pushing back B.77Ws, B.747s and the like, then surely a second one would be / could be fully justified and almost essential! What happens when said Tug requires maintaining, is another one hired in ?
:D

Only a couple of replies are required and then knock-it-ont-thed like, as things like this can get a little out of hand and become very tedious.

[Suzeman]

What MAN needs, is a Gil Thomson for the 21st century to pull all the disparate threads together and really drive a proper inbound tourism and business benefit. I would make the further point that the concept of MAG, as a group, in itself takes focus from Manchester Airport.

Hit the nail on the head there Skippy. On the first point, it would be nice, but will it ever happen? I hope so, but I doubt it. On the second you are quite right and something that people were concerned about after the takeover of STN.

And for my chum Bagso, I bow to your superior knowledge on what has been tweeted, facebooked and posted etc as I have no time to monitor such things. Have you tried to send your thoughts to the PR and Marketing people at the airport as it would appear that information for the general public is lacking in some ways?

Marketing Director is Jeff Howarth, so maybe [email protected]

Aviation Development contacts
MAG World - Aviation Contacts (http://www.magworld.co.uk/magweb.nsf/Content/aviationcontacts)

or [email protected]

I'm sure they would appreciate your feedback.

PS - SQ get some publicity for the 21 millionth passenger and shock horror, it got in something other than just the MEN

https://bdaily.co.uk/industrials/27-05-2014/manchester-airport-tops-21-million-passengers-market-for-first-time-in-six-years/

Manchester Airport welcomes 21 million passengers for first time in six years | Granada - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/granada/update/2014-05-27/manchester-airport-welcomes-21-million-passengers-for-first-time-in-six-years/)

Manchester airport reaches passenger number landmark | News | Travel Trade Gazette (http://www.ttgdigital.com/news/air-travel/manchester-airport-reaches-passenger-number-landmark/4691539.article)

Travel & Leisure: Passenger numbers reach six year record - So Cheshire (http://www.so-cheshire.co.uk/travel-leisure/9782/passenger-numbers-reach-six-year-record)

https://www.facebook.com/manairport

News / Airport toasts fresh passenger number hike THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/622967-airport-toasts-fresh-passenger-number-hike.html?news_section=4148)

Manchester Airport passengers hit 21m for a six-year high - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/manchester-airport-passengers-hit-21m-7180103)

[Bagso]

And for my chum Bagso, I bow to your superior knowledge on what has been tweeted, facebooked and posted etc as I have no time to monitor such things. Have you tried to send your thoughts to the PR and Marketing people at the airport as it would appear that information for the general public is lacking in some ways?


Suzeman

It would be easy to skulk in the shadows and criticize without putting ones head above the parapet. Occasionally, maybe all the time (?) I feel you have to counter prevailing orthodoxy. Cynicism is the enemy of all of us who want something to succeed, in this case Manchester Airport.

If its something that you have a genuine interest in, do you sit back ?, what the hell, does it really matter, personally I prefer activism, and raising a glass to Skipps comment, reinforced by your goodself that is exactly what Gil Thompson was,an activist able to galvanize and bring about collective pressure.

Maybe that is the frustration between then and now....

Maybe I did speak with them, maybe not.

Check Pms :ok:

[MClayton]

Not sure if today is the last day for Cathay Pacific 747's but todays is B-JLA in the Hong Kong World trader livery
May or may not be the last scheduled one so don't count me on it

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Yes, today marks the final scheduled Cathay Pacific Cargo service to Manchester according to recent reports. Very sad to lose a service which can be traced all the way back to twice weekly Air Hong Kong Boeing 707's. Hands up if you remember the Hong Kong Bong! At its peak, Manchester often saw three Boeing 747 freighters per day on this service with two in Cathay's own colours and a Dragonair example … all absorbed into Cathay Pacific Cargo these days. Now we can't support two flights per week.

The forthcoming B777 passenger service will (eventually) support decent underfloor cargo uplift, but the fact that Cathay is prepared to let things slide with no cargo offering at all between May and December says it all. They will be like newcomers to the freight market by then. All the established relationships with forwarders defunct, contracts forged with replacement carriers. It must be party time in the UAE, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Singapore. End of an era.

[pwalhx]

The relationship with forwarders has died already, fact is they have been more expensive than the competition for some time. We offered them a guaranteed 7-10,000 kilos per week into China and they were still 50% more.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Fair point. And of course, many China-originating manufactured products have been shifting further away from Cathay's Hong Kong / Shenzhen / Guangzhou hinterland. Manufacturing centres such as Wuhan and Chongqing have experienced exceptionally strong growth. This business does not naturally gravitate to export via Hong Kong.

[pwalhx]

That also is a point to a degree, add in more competition from Mainland carriers like for example Yangtze River Express operating into Amsterdam and offering very attractive rates. However more pertinently is the fact buyers have adjusted lead times to use sea freight and make the major cost savings that involves. There simply isn't at the moment the same amount of cargo flying in, this is not confined to Manchester. Apart of course when they launch a new iphone or games consol when you cant find space for love nor money and that is when we may see the promised ad hoc freighters coming in.

[MANFOD]

AA to ORD
There was a posting a couple of weeks back indicating this service was reverting to a B757 early from 19 Aug.

Tried dates late August and September on the AA web site booking section and it still shows a B767. Can anyone clarify?

Any update on the US loads to CLT. Looking at the available seats, there is some evidence the inbound loads are better than the outbound. Not very scientific and I appreciate pax on the first few departures from MAN have to return. I suppose the other aspect is have the CLT flights affected the loads on PHL?

[LAX_LHR]

The B767 now stays on the Chicago run until at least Wednesday November 5th. However, looking in GDS systems, it currently shows a B757 from 6th November, but, a B767 seating plan throughout winter. Lets hope they keep the B767 on, as there were quite a few last minute upgrades from the B757 to B767 last winter.

[MANFOD]

Much appreciated LAX. That's good news.

[nigel osborne]

Skipness,

Don't know about the MAN tug, but the lads driving the 747/77W tugs at BHX say in very wet or icy conditions,they would struggle in traction to push and tow an A380 with them.

We therefore have an A380 tug now..no A380s but a tug for one ,which EK requested ,in case they drop an A380 in. They nickname it "The Beast"

Its used each week to push some of our 777s

Nigel

[kieb92]

AUA1471 OE-LPE B772 on approach presumably for air livery?

[Una Due Tfc]

A380 tugs can indeed be used for smaller aircraft. On a dry day a 747 tug could probably do the job, but you might nacker it if the 380 is particularly full

[LAX_LHR]

Apparently PIA are looking at starting a 2 weekly LHE-MAN-LAX-MAN-LHE next year when their next batch of B777's arrive.

Obviously very subject to change given its PIA we are talking about.

[doublesix]

Did I see a SAUDIA 747 into Manchester today. If so was it replacing the 777 or what??

[Ringwayman]

It was a cargo flight. Meant to be another one soon.

[LAX_LHR]

Maybe SpannersatCX can answer this one.

Are CX planning on upping MAN flights already? Was having a browse through GDS to see how the flight was selling, and noticed that Friday and Sunday from April 2015 had direct flights against them, but when clicking on the flight numbers to investigate, both just came up with an error message.

The other 4 flights were loading up and viewable, and the LHR codeshares were also present.

[All names taken]

Interesting point LAX,
From the business flyer perspective, a route needs to be daily - or say 6 days pw - otherwise the route isn't going to get close to its potential.

Much as I welcome the CX route, at its 4pw schedule, it is unlikely to attract much premium traffic.
When you need to be there on a certain day, you are not going to change your schedule (and inconvenience your colleagues) to suit the airline schedule.
Once you've finished your business you want to come home pronto, you're not going to hang around for another day for the non-stop flight.

My recent trips to HKG from MAN have been with EK - upstairs on A380s all the way there and back - a hard act to follow.
A daily non-stop on CX would be a game changer though.

[Crazy Voyager]

I have very little understanding of this, so feel free to tell me I'm completely wrong, however.

What if CX isn't opening this route mainly for pax but rather for cargo? They have flown a lot of cargo flights for a long time, now by opening this route they can still carry it as hold-cargo, but they can also dip their toe into the pax-market and see what the demand looks like. If they can make money on the pax (as well as take some off their middle-east competition) then they will do so, but if not the cargo might be what keeps the route going.

Any thoughts on this reasoning?

[spannersatcx]

Don't know (or pretend to know) the politics with regard pax/freight, the freighter schedule although suspended! is still available on an ad-hoc basis. Mainly for outsized stuff, I understand we've finally slashed our prices, too late for most though. Very much shot themselves in the foot on that one.

I think it's more to do with the pilots and where the company wants them, i.e. HKG, as it is cheaper.

My understanding is that the pax flts are selling very well indeed, bookings are strong both up front and down the back. It is one of those that if it does well then you would most likely see an increase in flts, eventually to daily, I don't know at this time. I've been informed, as I say, that advance bookings are very good, so maybe come summer 15 it may well be daily, but once it is it has to be sustained. It's all about supply and demand and yields of course.

[chinapattern]

From what I understand demand for cargo has been dropping for a while - no doubt due in part to the increase in capacity to the middle east. CX have reached the point where dedicated freighter service is no longer viable so running a pax flight and tapping into the demand for HKG and China means they have the best of both worlds - but the seven month delay between the services could mean that CX will have to claw back their custom from their competitors.

[pwalhx]

Trust me us Cargo agents aren't choosy, CX as spanners said have finally woken up to the fact their cargo rates were too high. The thing about freight is it doesn't care where it flies from. OK that is an over simplistic view as there are factors to take into account such as urgency. However CX will attract freight below decks from December, if their pricing is competitive, but even if it is not then it will attract premium cargo.

[Crazy Voyager]

All interesting thougts, thanks.

Will also be interesting to see what happens if CX go daily with regards to stand, most the wide-bodies are now in the morning and stands are quite short at times, a few days back I think there were 3 wides parked remote due to lack of stands at the terminal (at least so I was told).

[Skipness One Echo]

They usually remote park a Thomson or a Monarch before bussing a long haul heavy, if they're not doing that, that's a rookie mistake in terms of international reputation. Like the year Virgin decided not to pay for an airbridge......

[Bagso]

Good news re Cathay certainly helped by the wealth of initial and indeed ongoing publicity / marketing !

(If only we had equal emphasis on the other new long haul services which have been launched !).

With United now doing Edinburgh Chicago and Aer Lingus, San Francisco, MAN is not just up against London and European hubs but is also getting squeezed by competition that did not exist back in the day.

[All names taken]

Can we just analyze the 'Dublin threat' from a reality perspective rather than hysteria.
Have you ever tried it Bagso? If you had you would not think of it as such a threat - I did it a couple of years ago and thought it was awful but more recently I flew to the States on an expensive J Class ticket from MAN. My partner wanted to join me but found that the cheapest Economy ticket was £1000 from MAN so she booked a flight with Lingus from DUB for £600 or so.
When we met up Stateside she described the experience as 'terrible', and said she would never do it again, just as I had warned.

The much lauded 'pre-clearance' means having to go through security twice, once for the DUB authorities and once for the US authorities. Once through the virtual border, as she said, there is absolutely nothing to do but be corralled in a crowded Ryanair style holding area with no shops.

Apart from the ceding of UK sovereign territory to the US in order to do the pre-clearance, why would an airport like MAN (or any other) want to get its US bound passengers away from the shops as quickly as possible? since that is exactly what happens - people freak out at the prospect of long queues and missing their flights so they go as quickly as possible to the pre-clearance channel.
Not good business for the airport.

As for the EI transatlantic experience, well, no more needs to be said if you've done it yourself.
No, I wouldn't lose much sleep over the Dublin 'threat' as you see it. But good luck to them.

[BHX5DME]

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/003B78111B8F6B0480257CED003B01AF/$File/May+14.pdf

[j636]

All Names Taken

You should try it again, did it 2 week ago the new expanded both space and staff have big improvement pre clearance and they make improvements to the transfer hall.

Your got a bad service however numbers transfers suggest otherwise. Don't think its a major threat however not being able to restore UA second service to EWR is more of an issue in my book and MAN always say extra capacity is needed.

Very few English people in this case would want to shop in MAN or DUB, they will be saving it for returning to the UK.

[All names taken]

J636

Interesting perspective; this was only three weeks ago but I was reporting the comments of my partner - and to her shopping was important but I guess mainly to fill the time.
To her, the whole experience was a 'never again' thing.

APD is the real menace when comparing the UK with DUB; now that does put us at a clear competitive disadvantage.
I guess it means that DUB will suck up the very price conscious end of the market.

[Bagso]

Thanks for the advice All Names Taken, I thought (clearly on an incorrect basis) that my posting was merely a factual observation !

I will certainly recheck any further postings for signs of .........hysteria !

[j636]

All Names Taken

I don"t think APD is a major issue as if you book a single ticket you are still being charged APD. If APD was scrapped tomorrow I don't see major change in UK long haul market just more profit for airlines but Short Haul would see best benefits as would regional airports.

[Bagso]

Backing Heathrow (http://archive.unitetheunion.org/campaigns/backing_heathrow_-_backing_bri.aspx)

Quote

"Manchester wants expansion at LHR in order to provide connecting flights from its airports. ...."

I don't think so UNITE. ......

[Skipness One Echo]

Well said Bagso, and why not stop BA and Virgin offering any connections via Heathrow! That'll learn them. Then anyone who was looking for a good deal in Economy subsidised my the suits on expenses will be forced to fly..... er from Dublin with Aer Lingus? Sorry I appear to have missed your point. Again.

Irish jobs for British workers? I am very confused but bagso is right. Frequency, connections and more jobs for UK based flight and cabin crew are bad. Somehow. Best to spread it around "fairly". Somehow.

Denying feed to MAN airlines using LHR won't mean they'll add capacity into MAN you know.

[Bagso]

Well said Skippy.

What we really need is 12 A380 a day to LHR. Canx AA, Delta, SIA etc

Oh hang on BA have a much reduced frequency from 5 years back, Virgin already down from 4 to 3..

But fingers crossed somebody else will step in !

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

MAG's response is slightly puzzling in this case. MAN already offers connecting flights to LHR operated by two carriers. Significant expansion of frequencies on these services is unlikely following the successful WCML rail upgrade. The emergence of the beloved "I hate planes - vote for me!" tax which has slashed demand for domestic air travel also inhibits expansion prospects in the future. HS2 would further negatively impact demand for MAN-LHR. Meanwhile, STN, BOH and EMA are unlikely to offer LHR connections however many runways are constructed there.

Personally, I think there can be little argument that LHR does need an additional runway for its own reasons, though consequent benefits for MAG airports will be negligible and STN would be actively disadvantaged.

Just one other point, Skipness. In common with many 'gone native' naturalised Londoners (WOW! Am I in trouble for that!!! :-) ), you again appear seduced by the myth that only London-based jobs count as worthwhile British jobs. Not so. Long-haul services (by all carriers) from MAN support high quality BRITISH employment both directly and in the businesses attracted to our region by the availability of direct airlinks. The much maligned MEB3 (from an employment standpoint) are also big employers in the North-West. Both Etihad and Emirates operate large support call centres in the area providing BRITISH jobs which pay tax to the same exchequer as people employed at LHR. MAG itself, its sub-contractors, all the carriers which operate here (including many UK airline companies) … all are providing good jobs for BRITISH workers. Remind your colleagues that London does not have the monopoly on this. We regional types are not foreign competitors. Taxes generated by employment growth in the regions are just as useful to the exchequer as those generated by Heathrow.

[kieb92]

Back to aircraft movements and HOP! E190 F-HBLA arrived on Wednesday from Paris to operate a charter to Alicante. Apparently they have several charters from MAN over the summer. Just wondered if anybody knows anything more?

[Skipness One Echo]

What we really need is 12 A380 a day to LHR. Canx AA, Delta, SIA etc
Why must you always define this in divisive terms? It's always "north v south" when you fail to understand that undermining the main UK hub will only favour AMS/CDG/FRA or any offshire Alliance hub. You don't like BA, fair enough they have a poor history at MAN. Yet Virgin only operate holiday flights with wide bodies from MAN, the EWR/JFK often winked and hinted at, never came in 17 years of the base. Yet now VS offer a one stop Virgin service to whole long haul network and all you do is see the negative, again. They also offer more options to connect with Delta over LHR, and whilst I would live to see the MAN-JFK back, it's still a commitment and a decent option. No one except you is suggesting A380s on domestics, however anything that offers the consumer more choice at a decent price and protects UK jobs is good in my book. Who is suggesting Delta or AA should pull out of MAN in favour of only LHR? You're making up a bogey man for an unfounded fear.

QANTAS and Cathay left when BA codeshares came into play, but QANTAS left everywhere except LHR and Cathay are coming back. Not every connecting option means non stop is removed bagso! Shed, your point about jobs is a good one, but bagso is being anti LHR in order to be pro MAN. Robbing Peter to pay Paul won't help here, and I have never suggested London jobs are in any way more British than any other part of the UK. More jobs and links from both airports are the aim surely.

[LAX_LHR]

Aegean are now flying MAN-ATH year round. Flights fully confirmed and bookable on their website and all GDS platforms.

Up until 25th October, flights will be 3 weekly. From 28th October until 1st April, flights are bookable 2 weekly on Tuesday and Saturday, with different timings to the summer flights:

A3638 ATH 0835 MAN 1035
A3639 MAN 1120 ATH 1715

A320 operates.

[Ian Brooks]

Hajj is in October so that will be crunch time

Ian

[Dairyground]

Now all we need is T1 and T3 demolished and that nice new terminal


But not necessarily in that order.

What seems to be missing from current plans is a direct rail link to Stockport (and on to Tameside and Oldham) that does not necessitate travelling via central Manchester.

[easyflyer83]

I can't see that happening. Even the train link between Stockport and Tameside (Stalybridge) only sees one train per week and in just one direction!

[LAX_LHR]

Seems Manchester is getting a few increases this winter, all which help address the seasonality imbalance.

Next up with the confirmed increases is TAP.

Lisbon-Manchester is 11 weekly this winter compared to daily last year.

TP324 LIS 0705 MAN 1000 MTWTFSS A319/A320
TP329 MAN 1045 LIS 1335 MTWTFSS A319/A320

TP322 LIS 1405 MAN 1700 --WTF-S A319
TP323 MAN 1745 LIS 2035 --WTF-S A319

Flights are bookable on all platforms including TAP website.

[ATNotts]

Bagso

We well written and fair assessment of the "job" that Visit Britain (doesn't) do for Britain.

I think though we should leave it there, as whatever we think and write (and I believe we are at one) it won't change things one iota and we living outside the southeast are going to have to lump it.

[LN-KGL]

I've been visiting every region in England and if we move to English counties only Cumbria and Isle of Wight is missing for my visited list. There was only one common denominator I picked up during the last ten years: We don't get our fair share. Another thing that surprised me was how small size this "We" area had. Bagso is talking about the north of England and the North West region and compare it with the South East region - this is very uncommon. But if you look at some parts of the South East, they are even worse off than the large majority of communites in the North West when it comes to let's say public transport and other forms of communication. We have a subsidiary in the south west corner of Hampshire and you can't imagine how hard (and expensive) it was for me get this site hooked up to our world wide Telepresence system.

[PPRuNe Pop]

North/South divide, trams trains - all nothing to do with the topic of this thread.


I'd appreciate it if you stopped wasting my time and STICK to THE topic.




PPP

[rutankrd]

Moderator or not I disagree.

All topics discussed are/have a direct reference to Manchester Airport operations economics and development .

[easyflyer83]

Absolutely. Trains, trams etc are all intrinsic to the success of MAN, for which this thread is about. Also, whether we agree with bagso or not, the promotion of inbound tourism also affects, you've guessed it, MAN. With that in mind I think you should perhaps rethink your stance as, in my opinion, the discussion is largely linked to the subject in hand... I.e Manchester Airport. I usually agree or sympathise with the views of Mods (even if it doesn't always come across very well) but I do think you are being a bit hasty and seeing the debate out of context.

[rutankrd]

North/South divide, trams trains - all nothing to do with the topic of this thread.


I'd appreciate it if you stopped wasting my time and STICK to THE topic.

Are you also going to censor Fairdeal and his one man "women" crusade for a four runway Heathrow project on every thread including this one ?

No disrespect to those views btw.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I have to admit, without any knowledge of having missed any posts which might have been removed, this thread has been a more interesting thread of late. It has gone from the immature and inane, dare I say, anorak content to a thread which has been discussing Manchester and its role not only on a standalone basis, but in the context of the region, nationally and in relation to other component parts of the national transport infrastructure.

I wish some recent formal discussions had shown so much thought towards MAN in the national context.

I've long argued you can not discuss MAN in splendid isolation, and if we are being restricted to do doing only that, I fear the thread will lose much of its current quality which has been such an informative read. :::shrugs:::

Soz Pop. :sad:

[Bagso]

MODS - I'd appreciate it if you stopped wasting my time and STICK to THE topic.

Hang on...what IS the topic....inbound tourism is fundamental and critical to the success of Manchester Airport , Visit Britain is supposed to represent all of Britain, my posting "now removed" detailed its major failings.

Therefore can you clarify what does one say ? I'm struggling to find what forms a reasonable argument !

"er its no good" is that it ?

POINT 1

The north south divide has absolutely everything to do with the prosperity of Manchester Airport. That' s blindingly obvious !

Strategy, vision, investment etc by outside agencies impact Manchester Airport !

POINT 2

As long as nobody is offended and the comments are not of a racist, bullying, homophobic or offensive nature I really fail to see why we have to have an intervention ?

It's an interesting debate which is engaging discussion what on earth is the problem ?

If i don't agree with somebody i will say so and likewise i am pretty sure some posters will disagree with me.

You have to add detail which may seem remote from the subject to ensure the point is made..... a glib comment without depth of colour is uninformative dull and unimaginative !

We have a "robust" exchange of views with some barbed comments, but we get on with it, so to speak

So I have transgressed on what of the face of it appears pretty flaky evidence I suspect a few posters will flee to the Mothers Union,
suddenly baking cakes seems quite an attractive proposition !

For clarification again "what is the topic " so we can stay precisely "on topic" and drown in the banal !

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Dear PPRuNe Pop,

In my more than 500 postings to PPRuNe (the majority of which appear on the Manchester threads) I have always endeavoured to be respectful towards other contributors and towards yourselves (the mods). I understand that you have a difficult job to do. However, respect on forums such as this one is a two-way street. I have noted other internet forums which have withered to irrelevance as over-zealous moderation drove well-informed regular contributors to alternative venues. It would be very sad to see that happen here. Good quality user-generated content is a valuable resource which should be appreciated by the host website. It is specifically this which attracts traffic to the site. The best forums are moderated with a velvet glove, not the jackboot.

In this case, my own posting discussing the North-South divide was directly relevant to Manchester Airport and relates to the ongoing fallout from the Davies Report. This report will directly affect the future distribution of business across UK airports including MAN. Bagso's posting on London-centric taxpayer-funded inbound tourism promotion tackled a topic which is fundamentally important to MAN. It must have taken him a couple of hours to research, compile and post it. Some may disagree with his opinion, but that posting was directly relevant, interesting, respectful, thought-provoking and non-abusive. Exactly the type of constructive submission which a forum-based website ought to appreciate.

Postings such as my own, and those of Bagso, Skipness, FDF, LAX-LHR, LN-KGL and many others do not just magically appear. These more involved submissions require knowledge borne of in-depth research, professional expertise and considerable time invested in acquiring that. If we are to invest our precious time contributing to these discussions in good faith (and in a wholly respectful manner), then it it is most disappointing to find our postings abruptly deleted because a moderator disagrees with the views expressed. I have to tell you that I contribute a great deal of valuable time in doing my bit to help make PPRuNe the vibrant resource that it has become. You moderators are the law, but frequent contributors are the lifeblood and soul of the site.

I will do my best to respect the rules of the forum (as I always have) … respectful exchanges with those who hold different opinions, no foul language, no abuse. I am happy to continue informing, educating and answering questions across the PPRuNe forums where my years in the industry have afforded me the insights to do so. This effort and time I happily contribute free of charge. In turn, I appreciate the opportunity to learn from the expertise of others and bounce ideas off them.

Bagso, FDF, Skipness, LN-KGL, LAX-LHR and so many others similarly donate their time and professional expertise to PPRuNe discussions. However, if one finds respectful and entirely relevant postings randomly deleted by the invisible hand, it becomes difficult to maintain the enthusiasm to contribute. Can the time and effort required still be justified? Please be careful not to kill the geese.

We respect you. Please reciprocate that respect to your dedicated regular contributors. They are well-informed professionals with valuable insights to share. They are not naughty schoolchildren.

Best Regards, SHED.

[LAX_LHR]

US Airways has used a B767-200 on the US746/747 CLT-MAN-CLT route the past 2 days due to higher than expected loads.

[Turtle controller]

Have none of you read post#11 in sticky?

[Malchester]

After the recent contributions to this forum, as a very interested amateur in all things related to Manchester and its airport with no inside knowledge at all, I want to thank all the contributors, those I agree with and those I don't agree with for their contributions. Surely that is the point of a forum like this, to share discussion, information, comment, conjecture. I for one really enjoy reading it. All I do is fly from Manchester 2 or 3 times a year, usually T2, as I will be again next week.

[Bagso]

As we still await clarification regarding what is a relevant posting and what is not ....I'll put this out there.

Here is the latest release from the Davies Commission who in answer to one very vociferous South Yorks Politician who yelled at Davies during a select committee meeting

"This inquiry was supposed to look at UK capacity , have you guys ever actually been to Manchester Airport ? "

Well shock, horror it seems Manchester may be relevant unless the report is merely a ruse to actually show the lack of London connectivity at Newquay, Inverness , and IOM etc

Somewhat lamentably they have produced the following and curiously after laying dormant for months they are currently tweeting for England the importance of wait for it "Regional Airports".

Blimey who threw the anchor out on that one ?

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/318211/utilisation-existing-capacity.pdf

Might just be me being cynical but the leader in the business section of The Times of Sunday (pure coincidence re timing of course, m'lord) suggested that

"the MEBs will have so many point to point flights into regional European airports by 2020, the need for Eastbound connectivity will quote
make LHR expansion unnecessary & unworkable".

The inference being that LHR once clearly the bridgehead of the EU/USA block will in effect be marginalised as power shifts to the center of EU/Asia.

......might well be worth remembering that quote as I have a feeling it will raise its head again in coming months, are they perhaps clearing the decks for a quick about turn on Heathrow expansion.

If it does airlines may look for opportunities elsewhere , maybe they have noticed the recent long haul interest in Manchester ?

As Captain Mainwaring used to say "Right Men All ahead ..........STOP ! "


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And a nice ref in the Los Angele Times travel section reference Manchester, from @VisitManchester who it has to be said have done an excellent body swerve past @visitbritain

http://www.latimes.com/travel/la-tr-d-manchester-20140608-story.html

Can only help the airport !

[Skipness One Echo]

US Airways has used a B767-200 on the US746/747 CLT-MAN-CLT route the past 2 days due to higher than expected loads.
There's only 4 business and 10 economy difference between the B762/B752 with US. Is the service at 100% capacity already? If that's the case, that's pretty impressive for a service in it's first month and before the school holidays.

[anothertyke]

Massive food for thought in the gov.uk doc linked above by Bagso. Informs the debate and takes it to a different level. It is a consultation doc, six weeks or so to respond.

[Suzeman]

North/South divide, trams trains - all nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
I'd appreciate it if you stopped wasting my time and STICK to THE topic.


I wish to support those who have been talking about trams and trains and connectivity and the regional economy etc; they are correct to say that topics like this are highly relevant to the discussion about MAN and its place in the UK airport system...

Forsooth, MAN Airport has a Ground Transport strategy which talks about trams and trains, as well as buses, coaches and cycles and footpaths......

http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/alldocs/1CFD0FFD6000513E80257393003BBAA2/$File/Grndtrans-screen.pdf

A bit long in the tooth now but maybe there will be a revision soon if anyone at the Airport is reading this.....

It contains amongst many other things the following

The profile and characteristics of the passenger market are highly relevant to the planning of surface access. It is important to understand the demand profile in order to better understand passenger behaviour and develop targeted strategies that influence travel mode choice.

Air transport is a dynamic business and airlines and airports are currently undergoing a period of radical change. This is in part driven by the continued growth of low cost carriers and consolidation in the charter market. This is an ongoing trend. In 2002 the split between scheduled and charter traffic was almost 50/50; by 2005 this was 60/40. By 2015, we expect that scheduled
services, predominantly driven by growth in low cost carriers, will make up 75% of our business. This has important implications for our surface access strategy as our own research shows that passengers travelling on low-cost airlines have a higher propensity to choose public transport, where as only 6% of charter passengers use public transport.

The main objectives of our Ground Transport Plan are to:
• Significantly increase public transport use
• Reduce dependency on the car
• Manage and mitigate road traffic growth
• Maintain and enhance the Airport’s accessibility


On Metrolink - that's the tram for those who don't know - it says

The extension of Metrolink to the Airport is a pivotal element of our Ground Transport Strategy – particularly for employees where we forecast an 8% mode share by 2015. It will complement our heavy rail services and penetrate areas of highest employee density, enhancing the accessibility of the Airport and offering opportunities for employment for residents of Wythenshawe, Chorlton and Trafford. It offers the potential to secure a major shift away from employee car use with significant savings in emissions, congestion and pollution.


Oh - and other airports have these too - here's Gatwick's which is more up to date and there's talk of trains in there...

http://www.gatwickairport.com/PublicationFiles/business_and_community/all_public_publications/2012/lgw_asas_2012_web.pdf

The state of regional economies is integral to the future of ANY airport, not just MAN and so any discussion of the merits of other regions, especially those who may be getting an unbalanced tranche of infrastructure investments is indeed relevant. Major inputs to forecasts of future traffic will include the state of the national and regional economy and the attractiveness of other airports to take traffic from local catchments

MAN's Master Plan states

Aviation is one of the key drivers of regional economic growth.

and
There is a very close connection between the economic prosperity of
Greater Manchester and the North West and the success of Manchester Airport

So anyone who doesn't look at the state of an airport in the round taking into account all the factors - physical including access, economic including demand, finance, environmental etc is deluding themselves. This includes such things as infrastructure spending in others areas where airports are competing for business as well as the political and regulatory arena where the "London-centric" concentration of policies and investment are becoming ever more to the fore - some good examples have been cited here already.

Luckily on this thread we have a few individuals who are prepared to argue their points cogently and respectfully and I would submit that these topics are entirely relevant to a discussion about Manchester - or any other regional UK airport for that matter.

[LAX_LHR]

There's only 4 business and 10 economy difference between the B762/B752 with US. Is the service at 100% capacity already? If that's the case, that's pretty impressive for a service in it's first month and before the school holidays.


Apparently 1 spare seat inbound and 14 outbound today. They made the effort to fit everyone on by swapping CLT-BRU to the B757 and CLT-MAN the B767. Also apparently very little slack in the other 3 flights for overbooking.

Maybe it goes to show that for at least summer, 4 daily AA isn't quite as crazy as first thought?

[Bagso]

Good news .......

Manchester is second most popular destination in England for overseas tourists - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/manchester-second-most-popular-destination-7241214)

Most telling figures here is not just the reference to Manchester, (2nd after London) but Liverpool, Leeds and arguably York.

Combined these are significant numbers and Manchester is the long haul entry point at the heart of this !

VisitBritain bosses are now "APPARENTLY" anxious to draw more foreign tourists to other attractions outside London.

Strategy director Patricia Yates said: “We need to encourage people to come back time after time, which in turn will mean our visitors venture out across Britain. London is the global superstar of tourism destinations, a city that all around the world people want to visit. Because of this, we need to make sure we are inspiring them on the Britain-wide offering and informing on how easy it is to travel across the country in such a short space of time.”

Keep hammering at there door chaps...embarrass their tweets, and emailing OUR MPs

They don't like it up 'em.

Imagine what Manchester and indeed The North could attract if words turned to actions !

[Skipness One Echo]

I maintain four daily is daft if you can get them all on three bigger aircraft :)
The B757 is in it's twilight years so I would imagine ORD B772, PHL A333 plus a.n.other, I would suspect B763 on JFK would be the way forward. Looks like a capacity gap if they're already full so early. Let's wait and see, I still want to shoot some of the B757s before they all go with the seagull trapped in letterbox livery. (I actually like it a lot)

[Fairdealfrank]

Are you also going to censor Fairdeal and his one man "women" crusade for a four runway Heathrow project on every thread including this one ?

No disrespect to those views btw.



Think it may already have happened.

Pity, there were some important and relevant points in it.

[Fairdealfrank]

Postings such as my own, and those of Bagso, Skipness, FDF, LAX-LHR, LN-KGL and many others do not just magically appear. These more involved submissions require knowledge borne of in-depth research, professional expertise and considerable time invested in acquiring that. If we are to invest our precious time contributing to these discussions in good faith (and in a wholly respectful manner), then it it is most disappointing to find our postings abruptly deleted because a moderator disagrees with the views expressed. I have to tell you that I contribute a great deal of valuable time in doing my bit to help make PPRuNe the vibrant resource that it has become. You moderators are the law, but frequent contributors are the lifeblood and soul of the site.

I will do my best to respect the rules of the forum (as I always have) … respectful exchanges with those who hold different opinions, no foul language, no abuse. I am happy to continue informing, educating and answering questions across the PPRuNe forums where my years in the industry have afforded me the insights to do so. This effort and time I happily contribute free of charge. In turn, I appreciate the opportunity to learn from the expertise of others and bounce ideas off them.

Bagso, FDF, Skipness, LN-KGL, LAX-LHR and so many others similarly donate their time and professional expertise to PPRuNe discussions. However, if one finds respectful and entirely relevant postings randomly deleted by the invisible hand, it becomes difficult to maintain the enthusiasm to contribute. Can the time and effort required still be justified? Please be careful not to kill the geese.


Good point Shed, and thanks for the comments. Arbitary censorship is always a bad thing.

[Bagso]

Skip - How would placing extra capacity out of say JFK, substitute for a chopped and apparently successful service out of Charlotte, currently a major US Air hub ?

Are the pax using this new service not coming from the region itself or at least a number of local commuter services OR would they be coming from right across the Southern States ?

I'm not being facetious btw way i'm just interested in your thinking ?

If its a general capacity issue USA - UK you could in effect put a service on from pretty much anywhere or increase frequency and it would presumably do well ?

PLUS as I have been saying for sometime "if" it becomes hugely successful rather than simply being pulled does it not get somebody somewhere within the new organisation changing their mindset ?

Either way great news...... AND "praise be" its being marketed !

Only my opinion but one wonders what may have happened had we had the following adverts

re Facebook/Twitter/website /Email call etc

....in the "pre booking stage", rather than after the service actually arrives ?

anyway some good advertising via the US Air feeds. (I wonder what or indeed who could possibly have spurred them into action:ok:)

http://www.usairways.com/en-US/travelplanning/planning/destinations/charlotte_to_europe.html?cint=hp_newslink_21197

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other news re Manchester

Surge in passengers from BRICs

Tourism data shows surge in BRIC tourists to Greater Manchester - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/tourism-data-shows-surge-bric-7240717?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Surge in Passengers from everywhere else

Manchester Airport passenger numbers to soar past the 22m mark - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/manchester-airport-passenger-numbers-soar-7241131?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)


The latter still seems to have the whiff of a self congratulatory puff piece, as the promotion of routes still seems adhoc, random
and fragmented ?

Absolutely fantastic stuff "on the road" with the Chinese currently especially re links to MUFC but what about say Egyptair, TAP, Transat and a few of the others ?

The marketing gaps are filling up but at times the speed of delivery can be glacial.

It needs people with the same relentless passion and enthusiasm we see channeled in one area used across not one BUT EVERY single route to every single follower using every single possible outlet.............otherwise well done 7/10

[Skipness One Echo]

The US majors reprioritise their hubs after a merger like this. Some will win, some will lose, some might close. Delta used to hub at CVG, offering flights to LGW, as did Continental from CLE to LHR/LGW. Most of the traffic is connecting on elsewhere which meant it could be accomodated over the remaining hubs fairly easily. Delta out of MSP is not as big on long haul as NWA wa out of their home base.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I maintain four daily is daft if you can get them all on three bigger aircraft

If your argument held water in the bigger picture, the A380 would be flying off the shelves to all the majors and the B77W would be a flop.

[Ian Brooks]

Yes lets move all the Heathrow TA flights to JFK and have 1 every 10 minutes
a guy I work with was over the moon when I told him of the Charlotte service as his family live there and saves
having to go through that awful JFK

Ian

[LAX_LHR]

Its been reported on the BBC that UA EWR-BFS is being cut for 9 weeks from 9th Jan-11th March.

It also reports MAN has been cut during this period, although all flights remain bookable at this time and seem to be 'unconfirmed'.

DUB thread reports both DUB-IAD and DUB-EWR are being cut for 9 weeks.

If this is true for MAN too, I would be astounded and very worried.

The loads (and at a glance yield) were reported as strong to excellent last winter, and this will leave us with just 7 flights a week on a B757 to JFK.

What also confuses me, and, before I get jumped on this is not meant as any disrespect to BHX, just an observation, but, BHX has traditionally been cut to 5 weekly the past 2 winters, yet no word this is suspended. So, how MAN looses 2 routes over this period against a route that traditionally gets cut back, all sounds quite strange and I can't quite get my head around what has apparently gone so very, very wrong?

Even more baffling MAN is potentially about to be completely cut from the UA network for 9 weeks, yet Delta are staying daily this winter instead of going down to 5/6 weekly as winters past (and using the ever so slightly larger A330-200 instead of B767), and AA looking to use the B767 on ORD all winter. Why such strong confidence at 2 airlines but a stark cutback at another?

[nigel osborne]

LAX-LHR.

Perhaps you answer your own question.

If Delta are not cutting theirs back this winter as before, then this may have forced Uniteds hand, if during this period yield is marginal.

BHX only goes down to 5 a week for 1 winter month and is 6 a week for the rest. BHX is not mentioned in the press article but could easily get suspended also.

Not sure Ive heard of a US carrier suspend services for just 9 weeks before ?

Nigel

[Ian Brooks]

I believe it may be maintainance issues with B763 causing the B757 fleet
to be redistributed for a short period. United has a problem in that many of the fleet are now quite aged.

[MANFOD]

Re United:

The BBC report 12 hours ago included this:
"Earlier, United Airlines also announced it will suspend some transatlantic flights from Dublin, Rome and Manchester in the same period"

Has anyone traced that announcement? It also refers to "some" t/a flights.
Does that imply all flights or just a reduction in frequency?

Like LAX LHR, if the story is true and complete, it is very puzzling if some other UK routes are surviving for that 9 week period. Is MAN really considered the weakest in terms of profitability? On the occasions I've looked on the web site, United's fares are usually more expensive than AA to New York and often dearer for connecting destinations than other US carriers. Checks on specific flights a day or so before suggest there is little or no availability in Business Class.

Sadly over the years, I've found that Bad News stories often prove to be true, while Good News rumours tend to take longer to come to fruition, if indeed they happen at all. Still, there's been a lot of positive developments recently so I guess some negatives are almost inevitable. Suspending both MAN flights for 9 weeks would however be pretty drastic if it happens, and some regular business customers may not easily be won back.

[All names taken]

Crikey - all a bit gloomy.

Quote: "Earlier, United Airlines also announced it will suspend some transatlantic flights from Dublin, Rome and Manchester in the same period"

Where does it say in those few words that United are cutting MAN out of its network for the winter? It just doesn't. Where does it say EWR? It doesn't - people seem to have read a negative story about BFS and because that is a EWR service have done a 2+2=5.

First of all Manchester has two United transatlantic routes EWR and IAD - the latter of which was reduced last winter anyway. The words 'suspend some transatlantic flights' could easily be construed to mean a reduction in frequency as in 'suspending the Tues/Weds flights'.

Let's get some perspective.

[MANFOD]

Quote: "The words 'suspend some transatlantic flights' could easily be construed to mean a reduction in frequency as in 'suspending the Tues/Weds flights'"

All Names Taken, that was exactly the question I was raising, as the wording is ambiguous. Apologies If I sounded too gloomy but I did acknowledge the very positive developments recently, (not least the CX announcement).

Anyway, let's see what the final outcome is with United. The suggestion that cut-backs on whichever routes relate to B767 maintenance with some 757's being redeployed sounds plausible and logical, but if it is the case, the choice of which services lose out is certainly of interest.

[All names taken]

MANFOD

Sorry, wasn't specifically referencing you, just the general tone of the whole discussion on the subject.

My money would be on a cut to the IAD - not a huge deal if the EWR remains - similar connections and the train takes you from EWR airport directly to Union Stn in downtown DC, if that's your final destination.

In any case low season temporary cutback - it happens everywhere.

[chinapattern]

What also confuses me, and, before I get jumped on this is not meant as any disrespect to BHX, just an observation, but, BHX has traditionally been cut to 5 weekly the past 2 winters, yet no word this is suspended. So, how MAN looses 2 routes over this period against a route that traditionally gets cut back, all sounds quite strange and I can't quite get my head around what has apparently gone so very, very wrong?

Can only offer that Icelandair launch BHX during that period; can't see UA wanting to give a new player in the market such a significant advantage.

[LAX_LHR]

Can only offer that Icelandair launch BHX during that period; can't see UA
wanting to give a new player in the market such a significant advantage


While it may have been established that MAN-EWR is unlikely to be cut, I would be interested to see why you think a 2 weekly Icelandair would be perceived as such a threat to UA at BHX, but, in the case of MAN, a 3 weekly Icelandair, 7 weekly AA to JFK and all the other USA carriers would not be seen as a bigger and more direct threat?

[Skipness One Echo]

a guy I work with was over the moon when I told him of the Charlotte service as his family live there and saves
having to go through that awful JFK
Everyone has "some guy I know" who uses a flight 'cos it's near his house. It is not business practice to undertake route planning on that metric however. Though it's always good for the consumer to have more options, I agree.
If this is true for MAN too, I would be astounded and very worried.
The Continental/United merger has been a rougher ride than Delta / NWA and American / US thus far. The promised savings and synergies have not arrived in sufficient numbers, what's happening now is a battle to fix it.
Not sure Ive heard of a US carrier suspend services for just 9 weeks before ?
NWA used to do it out of PIK and SNN in the deep, dark winter only, about 8-10 weeks some years.

[MANFOD]

Quote:

"Everyone has "some guy I know" who uses a flight 'cos it's near his house. It is not business practice to undertake route planning on that metric however"

That's a bit harsh Skip. The original poster wasn't suggesting that route planning was done on that basis; merely pointing out he had a happy colleague who was grateful for a convenient non-stop flight rather than having to change at JFK.

[hammerb32]

Only a guess on my part but UA have a large corporate contract out of Brum that is taking business class seats on most flights, if Brum is not being cut back which is by no means certain it would not surprise me if it's to apease this specific contract.

Bagso - in terms of the marketing for the Charlotte flight or lack thereof it was being advertised heavily around the Midlands right through the winter, as was the Saudia services, they were MAG billboards rather than the airline. As a perception MAG are very good at marketing themselves around here and very good at marketing new routes - you shouldn't always be so hard on them.

[Hazzie]

Dont suppose anyone has any thoughts on the chances of one of these 'European' Airports being Manchester.
International flights starting in 2015 could be announced for T.F. Green this month | Breaking News | providencejournal.com | The Providence Journal (http://www.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/content/20140611-international-flights-starting-in-2015-could-be-announced-for-t.f.-green-this-month.ece)

I remember the days of there being a direct flight to Boston from Manchester and T F Green being 'just down the road' from Boston it would be nice to see the route back.

[LAX_LHR]

International flights starting in 2015 could be announced for T.F. Green this month | Breaking News | providencejournal.com | The Providence Journal (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_14025857820006&key=1e857e7500cdd32403f752206c297a3d&libId=288b154c-d031-450d-bcdc-7024d62ce262&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewrep ly%26noquote%3D1%26p%3D8518572&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.providencejournal.com%2Fbreaking-news%2Fcontent%2F20140611-international-flights-starting-in-2015-could-be-announced-for-t.f.-green-this-month.ece&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fairlines-airports-routes%2F493949-manchester-9-a-158.html&title=PPRuNe%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=International%20flights%20starting%20in%202015%20could%2 0be%20announced%20for%20T.F.%20Green%20this%20month%20%7C%20 Breaking%20News%20%7C%20providencejournal.com%20%7C...)


He said the airlines would offer service four days a week — one of them on
Mondays and Wednesdays, the other on Tuesdays and Thursdays.


Service on 2 days a week from 2 different airlines? This has got Condor from FRA and Thomas Cook from Manchester written all over, especially since Boston keeps appearing as a MAN destination on the Thomas Cook flights website.

Technically 2 different airlines, but one set of negotiations, which is a the best scenario given providences size.

[LAX_LHR]

Also just thought of something very interesting.

On 10th May, post 2962 on this thread, I said:

There seems to be 2 gaps that a MAN-BOS flight could run, which is Tuesday and Saturday, and depending how the LGW long haul flights rotate(ei a MAN based machine or the 5th 'floating' aircraft that goes to STN/GLA), there could possibly be room for a Thursday flight too.

And the guy at Providence stated this:


He said the airlines would offer service four days a week — one of them on
Mondays and Wednesdays, the other on Tuesdays and Thursdays


Now that is a huge co-incidence!

[chinapattern]

While it may have been established that MAN-EWR is unlikely to be cut, I would be interested to see why you think a 2 weekly Icelandair would be perceived as such a threat to UA at BHX, but, in the case of MAN, a 3 weekly Icelandair, 7 weekly AA to JFK and all the other USA carriers would not be seen as a bigger and more direct threat?

The competition at MAN is already there and has been for a long time; United have the BHX-USA direct market to themselves and I'm sure FI will be chasing a lot of this traffic and UA won't be willing to just hand it to them. For all we all know BHX could also have been under threat also but fought harder to keep there only transatlantic service.

[Bagso]

As a perception MAG are very good at marketing themselves around here "BHX" and very good at marketing new routes

My issue is not in traditional forms of advertising but the fragmented scatter gun approach manner in which social media is embraced !

Its 2014 !

Every other major origination is using Twitter, Facebook and other forms of social media etc to maximum effect !

Whilst a billboard on a main carriageway in Birmingham is fantastic, it only reaches a very specific demographic group, it won't by example reach a trade organization in say Manchester, Merseyside, South Yorks or Humberside.

It certainly does not reach potential inbound business passengers from Charlotte !

OR

what about promoting Hajj flights to religious organisations in say Oldham, Blackburn, Bradford, Leeds etc ?

What about cargo forums etc ?

Contrast the launch of a new US service from Edinburgh this was plastered across 25 web pages by EDI themselves both here AND the US !

Our Charlotte service reached a mere, wait for it ....2

Edinburgh were equally vocal on twitter / facebook, with the multiplier effect you can reach a vast audience at little cost !
You can repeat the message in the language of the originating country Eg Arabic etc

Manchester has one of the largest twitter followers in the World , all I am saying is capture every opportunity !

LAX often quotes some gems , TAP increasing frequency over Winter, likewise Aegean, surely it cannot be much trouble to actually tell people ?

[MAN777]

Not sure if will make much difference to PAX figures but some unusual aircraft due at the annual Aviation & Transport Festival (previously known as fair)

https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/irorsb

https://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/cqfi3i

[Baltic Skies]

My brother, who is an airline captain has just related his horrific holiday experience at Manchester T2.
Travelling with Thomson to Menorca, having checked in online, he and his girlfriend waited 45 minutes in the bag drop queue, along with hundreds of other unfortunates. the desk for airport check-in was deserted !!
Having dumped his luggage, the next hurdle was security. Again a horrendous queue and upon reaching the front was confronted by shrieking staff, hurling aggressive instructions such as "don't take a tray", despite the airport signage requesting you to "take a tray".
Another 40 minutes of his life wasted, he finally reached the departure gate with just 20 minutes to spare.
This is in early June, how terrible will the process be when the kids are on holiday??
A very relaxing week spent in Son Bou, but any benefits of the holiday destroyed by having to wait for nearly an hour to clear immigration on arrival at Manchester and that's as a British passport holder !!
He uses airports throughout the Uk and worldwide and rates this as probably his worst experience to date and he has been flying professionally for many years.
never again will he use Manchester for a short Mediterranean break. An extra 30 minutes in the car and he can enjoy the relaxed experience of East Midlands.
How has Manchester Airport allowed it's standards to fall to these levels?
Everyone deserves to enjoy their well deserved break
and not be treated like cattle.

[Musket90]

Baltic Skies - These sort of airport experiences happen too frequently and airport marketing, which promotes the positive experience, can give the expectation of a smooth process from check-in/bag drop to going through Security to the gateroom. Sadly this can be very different to what happens in practice and marketing will never tell you the negatives. So if the East Midlands experience is better, then go for it.

[gsky]

I also went thru MAN to Menorca a couple of weeks ago.
I breezed thru security.. but then I had the foresight to pay £3.50 for Fast track.I am sure an airline captain could afford to pay £3.50 to avoid another dreadful experience.
Upon my return, using my 'chipped' passport, I passed thru immigration within 5 minutes . no delay whatsoever.
Sadly the bags then took 45 minutes to come thru.
Two out of three aint bad!!
Delays happen at all airports. its the luck of the draw but prior planning eg fast track, can reduce the risk and the hassle

[rutankrd]

You have three whinges and are subject to differing considerations

1Travelling with Thomson to Menorca, having checked in online, he and his girlfriend waited 45 minutes in the bag drop queue, along with hundreds of other unfortunates. the desk for airport check-in was deserted !!

Recent conditioning by the mainly flexible fare operators mentality and Thomas is not one. If you have baggage you might as well check in and collect boarding card from a human! - Thomas don't charge extra and it doesn't add/save any significant time !

Did they even approach the check in desk to see if they would take the luggage off them ?

Not really the Airports problem !

2Having dumped his luggage, the next hurdle was security. Again a horrendous queue and upon reaching the front was confronted by shrieking staff, hurling aggressive instructions such as "don't take a tray", despite the airport signage requesting you to "take a tray".
Another 40 minutes of his life wasted, he finally reached the departure gate with just 20 minutes to spare.

This is a combination of Home Office dictate on security and Airport operator problems in actioning it with due reference to available logistics and infrastructure.

Especially at and around peak traffic flows.

Again this is compounded by the modern flexible fares business model such that more baggage is being hand carried than ever to save a few bucks !

Right now i am of the opinion that if the CAA/JAA and government were to ban cabin carry on beyond a hand bag/ very small over night bag these security queues could be substantially reduced.

A very relaxing week spent in Son Bou, but any benefits of the holiday destroyed by having to wait for nearly an hour to clear immigration on arrival at Manchester and that's as a British passport holder !!

The actions of UK Borders are politically motivated at the highest level with un acceptable and direct interference in day to day operations.

It is un-acceptable and un-necessary to inspect every bl**DY UK/EEA passport/ID card however thats what the UK government wants and believes is in the national security interest (Political and xenophobic b*llo*ks!)

Again not the airport operators fault.You can be absolutely sure MAG and their retail tenants would far sooner see the foot fall in those cafes bars restaurants and partaking in the retail experience than pushing/not pushing a plastic tray or sorting out an even more pointless plastic bag and having 250mil aftershave bottles confiscated !

[anothertyke]

Not sure a stressful experience which however does not result in missing the plane should be allowed to ruin a holiday. My experience with MAN T3 is that service levels both at check in and security are quite variable at the same time of day--- you can be through both in 20 mins or it can be well over an hour. So the best way these days is to arrive two hours before the flight time and accept you may be sitting about or you may not. I can't comment on EMA but at Leeds I wouldn't like to allow less than one and a half hours at peak time if you're not going to pay for fast track.

I've been in much worse queues at hub airports in the States!

[rutankrd]

It is un-acceptable and un-necessary to inspect every bl**DY UK/EEA passport/ID card however thats what the UK government wants and believes is in the national security interest (Political and xenophobic b*llo*ks!)

Its even more so because UK Borders are in receipt of pre-clearance and detailed passenger lists for every UK bounds flight and have been for many years.

This gives them more and a little opportunity to meet and greet suspect or other persons of interest at the gate if they see fit whilst leaving the majority of legally travelling persons to go on their way !

As for customs checks for contraband thats a differing matter.

[Facelookbovvered]

I use both MAN & LGW several times a month and a lot depends on the day you hit MAN, but as an object lesson in how to handle security LGW does it far better IMHO

[rutankrd]

I use both MAN & LGW several times a month and a lot depends on the day you hit MAN, but as an object lesson in how to handle security LGW does it far better IMHO

However the infrastructure issues differ "the worst for MAG for sure" .
North Terminal was designed for common usage in the first place and has plenty of space to accommodate post 9/11 style security.
South Terminal has had oodles of cash spent by GIP and again had plenty of space for extended security

Manchester on the other hand has T3 a terminal designed for primarily one carrier domestic services and with reference to a future Schengen membership "that never happened" for regional flights only so no effective security hall was even envisioned !

Rump of T1 is so over stretched today it simply is unfit for propose .

Whilst T2 was designed for a time when the value of quick kerb/airside was in vogue so again lack of space for those post 9/11 security lines we all now have to live with.

Within these existing infrastructure limitations and government dictates on security and border control Manchester Airport is in a rock and hard place right now.

Its an airport thats' evolved from being primarily a tourist departure point for the Med to having flights arrive from some of the riskiest places on the planet at the moment such as Libya, Egypt and Pakistan.

Whilst runway capacity is nowhere near used - Its got a operating limit of over 320,000 annual movement and handles around 180,000 at the moment.

The Terminal capacity is notionally about 30 -32 million mark,however Manchester is among the most variable in Europe with peak flows at times already close to capacity.

Little wonder it records some of the worst onetime dispatch figures either .

To some extent MAG and its customer airlines need to re-think Terminal usage as a matter of urgency.
Its certain they will have to if/when the proposed T1/T3 redevelopment is moved forward anyway.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

horrific holiday experience at Manchester T2....hundreds of other unfortunates... horrendous queue... confronted by shrieking staff, hurling aggressive instructions...Another 40 minutes of his life wasted...benefits of the holiday destroyed by having to wait for nearly an hour...probably his worst experience...never again...

You don't happen to write for the Daily Mail do you..? :}

[MANFOD]

Quoting rutankrd:
"The Terminal capacity is notionally about 30 -32 million mark,however Manchester is among the most variable in Europe with peak flows at times already close to capacity"

You're quite right I'm sure. You've only to look in T1 check-in for departures for example at say 09.00 to 10.30 to see how relatively quiet it is once the early morning rush is over. And runway movements from 10.30 to 12.00 or a bit later are significantly reduced.

It must be something of a concern to MAN as I imagine they can't accommodate many more based a/c all wanting to depart between 06.00 and 08.00, but there's no easy answer as to how those quiet periods could be filled. I suppose in theory EZY and FR could use MAN on a W pattern with an early departure from LPL or STN, on a fairly short sector to say a French provincial city, or perhaps foreign airlines utilise slots during mid morning or mid afternoon like Air Portugal. But which airlines?

In response to that earlier post about a bad experience at MAN, our own was considerably better but still raised one or two concerns. It was also a TOM flight from T2, with an early 06.10 departure. I too was surprised at the length of the queue for bag drop compared to normal airport check in, but it was well staffed and took less than 20 minutes, probably nearer 15 although I didn't time it exactly. It was a similar wait at security but I noticed only 5 of 10 channels were initially open although a 6th was just about to open as we reached the front by which time the queue had grown. The handling of the B767 didn't seem to go smoothly. There was a delay in loading the luggage containers and boarding didn't commence until less than 20 minutes before scheduled departure, not helped by the fact there was then only 1 person checking boarding passes and passports at the gate to start with. It did speed up but the Captain said there had been handling issues and, at 06.20 as the last pax boarded, he said that if we didn't get away inn the next 5 minutes (push chairs were still being loaded in the belly) ATC had warned we would be slot restricted. Fortunately we made it.

The return arrival also raised an interesting point but perhaps best left to a separate post. This one's long enough!

[Ian Brooks]

Again there are separate issues MAG/handling agents and border agent(not this time)

Ian

[MANFOD]

Ian, I appreciate there are separate issues. I wasn't trying to apportion blame, merely relating our experience. Overall, we had no real complaints. Plane left 15 minutes late but arrived Palma on time. However, there was enough evidence to suggest that MAN can be on a knife edge as regards waiting times, which can suddenly increase significantly - for departures and arrivals - not least due to the variation in traffic flows that rutankrd referred to.

Over the years, our experience at MAN has been pretty good but I accept that some travellers have been less fortunate.

[LN-KGL]

We need only to move one week back to see what was said about the importance of a well functioning ground transport system at the airport. I would say it is equally as important for an airport to be a well oiled machine on the inside. Obviously one or more cogwheels have a bad tooth or three or a complete cogwheel need to change its bearings. An airport is one unit consisting of many operators, but only one operator failing is enough for the airport to lose its reputation.

[FFHKG]

Whilst those who understand how an airport operates or are frequent travellers, realise that many parts make up the whole experience, most of those travelling through once or twice a year going on holiday, do not understand this. To them, Manchester Airport is responsible for their good/bad experience and as such its reputation can easily be tarnished. If MAG really care about its reputation, it's important for them to be proactive in making sure the overall experience is good, and not just those parts that they directly profit from.

Many airport operators around the world understand this - MAG should take a look at SIN or HKG and learn from how they operate. Even at peak periods,you rarely wait more than 5 minutes to clear security.

[pwalhx]

Fair point about security in Hong Kong but on the opposite side the immigration queues have regularly been horrendous. Whilst I personally love HKG as an airport I usually look forward with trepidation to the wait at immigration.

[MKY661]

Just seen this on Plane Mad:

Expect a new route announcement from a airline that has operated into MAN before very very soon..... All is in place handling wise ...... It will be a long haul route starting summer 2015

Any Ideas? :)

[chinapattern]

Was rumoured a while back MH looking at KUL-MAN-EWR. Long haul wise I can't think of anyone else it could be.

[LAX_LHR]

Delta look to be keeping the A330-200 permanently at MAN when it gets introduced this winter, as Summer 2015 also showing the type.

[Skipness One Echo]

The DL64/65 remains non daily over the winter on a bigger aircraft than the B763?

[LAX_LHR]

No DL64/65 is down in all systems to remain daily A330-200 all winter at this stage.

UA100/101 to IAD is the only conformed 'cut' this winter, aside from the seasonal Charlotte ending.

[FFHKG]

Re. HKG Immigration Queues & response to my earlier message : Don't know how many travellers are aware that if you travel frequently to HKG, you can register your passport with HK Immigration desk after Immigration. They take your finger print, attach a bar code to your passport and you can then forget the immigration queues and use the automatic gates just like HK residents. You can also use the same gates leaving HKG airport. at the Macau ferry terminal and at the border crossing into China into Shenzhen.

[Logohu]

Been through Singapore's Terminal 1 a few times this year at peak periods and never less than 45 mins wait at Immigration both inward and outward. Last time had a 5 hour transit again at SIN T1 and the eateries upstairs were a disgrace with filthy uncleared tables. The security staff at the gate lounges can be very abrupt too. Yet they consistently win awards for world's for best airport !!

From my experience MAN when busy is no worse, and a breeze at off peak times.

[j636]

Been through Singapore's Terminal 1 a few times this year at peak periods and never less than 45 mins wait at Immigration both inward and outward. Last time had a 5 hour transit again at SIN T1 and the eateries upstairs were a disgrace with filthy uncleared tables. The security staff at the gate lounges can be very abrupt too. Yet they consistently win awards for world's for best airport !!

From my experience MAN when busy is no worse, and a breeze at off peak times.

Are you honestly comparing a 3 terminal airport in MAN which handles around 22 million to a 3 terminal airport in SIN which handles 54 million passengers.

Compare like with like and you will soon see MAN worse than similar airports of its size.

[Logohu]

Are you honestly comparing a 3 terminal airport in MAN which handles around 22 million to a 3 terminal airport in SIN which handles 54 million passengers.

Not at all, they are different airports serving different markets and the fact they process more passengers is irrelevant as they were designed and built much more recently than most UK airports to do just that.
The point is that whenever anyone has a moan about their latest UK airport experience they tend to quote airports like HKG and SIN as being the holy grail, when in fact they all suffer from congestion and queuing same as any other airport when there's a peak in demand.

[All names taken]

I think a lot of the criticism of MAN is just your average Brit having a moan and saying how much better everything is everywhere else. We just love slagging our own places off at the expense of just about anywhere else.
The same people that huff and tutt in UK queues are generally the same people that laugh and joke in queues in HKG, SIN, etc etc

MAN has improved immeasurably over the last few years in all respects other than Border Control, it deserves considerable praise for the investments it has made in security areas and the like to alleviate some of the bottlenecks.
What it can't change overnight is the inadequate nature of both T1 and T3 but if rumoured demolition and rebuilding of both come to pass, we will end up with a short term pain for long term gain.
Given a) the high seasonality of the airport and b) the peaks and troughs as the large based fleets depart and return, it's a wonder it functions at all.

Just out of interest - extrapolating the peak morning summer flows into an annual norm..........what passenger number would that produce on an annual basis?

[Bagso]

Expect a new route announcement from a airline that has operated into MAN before very very soon..... All is in place handling wise ...... It will be a long haul route starting summer 2015

It had better be Air China !

Former operator freight service
Lots of chit chat re China Forum
Current Chinese Premier Visit and a self congratulatory opportunity for Gideon to emphasis what he is doing for "The North"

Lots of back slapping down South on the news but we need some of the impetus re these trade deals/retail /tourist opportunities up here.

I'm sure BA are sniffing for opportunities let's hope MAG are.


Talking of representation has anybody actually seen or know of the Honourable Member for Wythenshawe, last seen catching a train to Euston.

Considering he has a major employer in his constituency he has not exactly been Mr chatty !

Perish the thought he has succumbed to the bright lights of London never to return to represent the thoughts /aspirations of the individuals who voted for him !

[BDLBOS]

Logohu, just how many times have you actually been through SIN this year. I assume it may have been a stop over one way and transit on the way back?

[chris789]

New long haul routes are no doubt a great thing, but I hope new entrants have time to establish themselves before further new additions risk cannibalising customers; especially where they compete for connecting customers.

In terms of a new long haul route with an airline which operated previously, all I can think is:

Malaysian Airlines:
possible, though KL is not high yield traffic, is it? With competition from ME3, plus Cathay and SA, might be tricky to justify such a long haul route with all its associated costs at a time of turbulence for the airline

Air India:
Always possible and BHX flights have not been pulled by the airline, suggesting a possible confidence that AI has in UK non-London airports. MAN doesn't have the same Indian VFR traffic as BHX, but perhaps there is sufficient business links to make a Delhi flight viable and there is no direct competition

South African:
I'd love it, but I doubt it. The lack of an sub-Saharan African airline (Kenyan, Ethiopian) at MAN is a hole, I believe, but I don't have confidence SA will be the ones to plug it.

El Al:
Not quite long haul, but I'm surprised that they leave the route to easyJet. They have operated the route before.

Gulf Air:
A very competitive market and they are not doing well, but I could see them wanting a piece of the pie.

My guess would be Air India, but given MAN's boom recently, it could be anyone!

Any other punts?

[eye2eye5]

Given the current thawing in relations between the UK and Iran, I would think that the return of Mahan is a strong possibility.

[LAX_LHR]

Air India:
Always possible and BHX flights have not been pulled by the
airline, suggesting a possible confidence that AI has in UK non-London airports. MAN doesn't have the same Indian VFR traffic as BHX, but perhaps there is sufficient business links to make a Delhi flight viable and there is no direct competition


Its worth noting the O&D between MAN and DEL is actually larger than BHX-DEL. BHX's main India draw is ATQ, and given DEL is attracting about 60% loads seems to confirm what the CAA stats show.

[MClayton]

Considering that Emirates going through Milan was recently stopped whats the possibility that it could be that route but redirected

[Bagso]

Considering that Emirates going through Milan was recently stopped whats the possibility that it could be that route but redirected

I may have spotted a flaw in that cunning plan !

Emirates are not a former operator, well not yet .....

[MANFOD]

Bagso, it's being said on another site that in fact the airline in question is a current operator at MAN on a daily basis. This is adding to the mystery and intrigue. But it's not EK to SFO apparently.

Lets just hope that whoever it is and to wherever it plans to fly, does actually happen.

[110Cornets]

Hmm could it be PIA to LAX? Has been rumoured...and fits all the recent hints.

[Bagso]

Changes to Chinese Visa applications announced !

Announcing the changes, Home Secretary Theresa May said the number of Chinese visitors to Britain was "soaring".

We NEED a slice of this action and if packaged correctly there is massive appeal In terms of Manchester , Chester, Beatles tours, Lakes, Chatsworth etc.

Let's hope the Chinese forum bares it's teeth !

[Mister Geezer]

EK could be a very strong contender as creating more fifth freedom routes through Europe is on the agenda, with MAN apparently being looked at. If anything ever does happen, then it looks like JFK is perhaps more probable.

Outside of LHR, there is no daily all year schedule to YYZ and if diplomatic relations between Canada and the UAE had remained a little calmer, I suspect that YYZ would be worthy of a little more consideration. However, that is extremely unlikely for the foreseeable future.

[eggc]

Quite a guessing game going on on all forums, so I'll join in I think with my predictions, but both been mentioned already...EK to JFK, or PK to LAX.

[MANFOD]

I'm sure it's been said somewhere that it's a new route, which I suppose has been interpreted as a new destination. If it's a new route for a particular airline from MAN, but not necessarily a new destination, then EK to JFK could fit the bill.

That, I have to say, would be more interesting i.m.o. than PIA to LAX with MAN really being mainly a refuelling stop and presumably for security purposes.

Also, it has not been established whether it is a transit flight via MAN or a MAN originating flight; or even that it's to the US, although that seems likely on the hints given.

[LAX_LHR]

Ok I'll give more clues.

Its not a transit flight and as far as I know this route has never been served from MAN (IAH was mentioned earlier but that has been served from MAN in the past).

Its not another China flight, and while a good route, probably not 'exciting' (as in a 'I've always wanted to go there' route).

Primary driver of the route is cargo (Ironically cargo originating in the Midlands) and connections.

Then that really is all I can say.

[GLENO]

Cargolux to Seattle with Rolls Royce Engines!........

[Brian Equator]

UPS to Memphis?

[Bagso]

The fact it ISNT China is more of a worry.

If we are going to get Air China it should have emerged on this trip in terms of kudos etc.

Still time i assume but this needs to happen now !

[Betablockeruk]

Primary driver of the route is cargo (Ironically cargo originating in the Midlands) and connections.

Thought BHX had paid a fortune for a longer runway to service this sort of demand?

Anyway, I'll pop in the bookies and put a £10 on Detroit

[MANFOD]

Years ago, Detroit was often mooted but never happened. I thought the financial crisis had taken a heavy toll on industry there - are there signs of recovery?

Seattle doesn't really fit the connections criteria (I assume they would be at the other end not MAN) and the wrong industries I would have thought for cargo.

Pittsburg, an industrial city, was once a possibility but as far as I know has never developed as an international airport.

Phoenix or Denver come to mind for possible connections, but not sure as to whether they would be a driver for cargo, and Denver is a place you might want to visit so doesn't fit with the hints.

If, and it's not been confirmed, it is a US route, we seem to be left with BA and DL (UA, VS & AA, which I take to include US Air now, having been ruled out). If it's not the US, and not a transit flight, and it's a current daily operator into MAN, the choice is somewhat restricted I would have thought.

I bet LAX LHR is enjoying this!

[hammerb32]

Not sure how much cargo shifts between Brum and Detroit these days, rewind 10-15 years it was enough to fill an MD11 a week but that was when Ford engines were put in Jags. Assuming it's auto industry related freight than India, China and Saudi Arabia would be the obvious choices. With Saudi already covered, China ruled out and India served from Brum I'm a little stumped unless it's a new carrier to India or the flights from Brum are already full with cargo?

[Curious Pax]

This is a good game! Was confused about LAX_LHR's comment about giving more clues, as I didn't think he'd given one at that point. However thinking laterally about his DL 330 comment I wonder if Betablockeruk's £10 might be worth following. As he said, Detroit isn't renowned for being at the top of its game financially at the moment, but it is a decent sized DL hub, so if they funnel transit pax through there, with the bonus of ferrying loads of car parts below deck then who knows? For pax heading to the northern half of the US, it would be a more obvious connection than going through Atlanta.

[LAX_LHR]

However thinking laterally about his DL 330 comment


That comment was purely co-incidental, given the DL64/65 now remains a permanent A330-200 when it switches from the B767-300 in October.


I bet LAX LHR is enjoying this!


Its actually quite interesting to see what people can interpret from the clues. Some interesting ones so far!

In terms of China, Im very very disappointed that the recent meeting between our PM's and officials did not sign the bilateral addendum Air China so desperately need to start MAN. Its still on the cards, and this is the only thing stopping them starting.

In other news, it seems Flynas will drop to 2 weekly from September. Looks like they are wounded and on the verge of retreat.

Going the complete opposite way, Saudia have put on extra flights for the Hajj from September, with sporadic dates loaded, and all extra flights being the B777-300ER.

[Skipness One Echo]

Its actually quite interesting to see what people can interpret from the clues. Some interesting ones so far!
Is there a particular reason why you can't name the airline?
In terms of long haul, South African and Malaysia are in an appaling state financially.
The US legacies have AA/US over subscribed in my view, United adding IAD but at the expense of a EWR rotation in comparison with EDI where ORD was in addition to twice daily EWR which leaves DL which only recently dropped JFK, a much stronger O&D hub than DTW. The MAN-strong hub options are already served, the first tier is already covered.

Primary driver of the route is cargo (Ironically cargo originating in the Midlands) and connections.
Then that really is all I can say.
Which therefore leaves United to IAH or Delta to Seattle.

#boredwithgames

[MClayton]

Quite a few questions here so I apologize for that

Is this a cargo only flight or is that just one of the reasons why this route is happening ?

As you said the route has never been served before, has the airline ever operated a different route that came into MAN ?

Also does anyone know of any recent deals with companies in the Midlands that may have resulted in a boost in cargo ?

[LAX_LHR]

Is there a particular reason why you can't name the airline?


Confidentiality. I and others privy to the news can go as far to say 'a route will be announced', and give clues in the manner I have, but, cant go as far to name the airline and route.

[LAX_LHR]

#boredwithgames

#dontplaythen :ugh:

[MANFOD]

Re Saudia, are we still expecting the increased frequency (to 4 a week) from November that was mentioned previously and not just the ad hoc increase for Hajj?

On the guessing game, if it's a US route, I can't see beyond Delta, and Detroit would seem to meet the hints better than Seattle, although isn't the latter a new DL hub?

[Skipness One Echo]

#dontplaythen
Confidentiality. I and others privy to the news can go as far to say 'a route will be announced', and give clues in the manner I have, but, cant go as far to name the airline and route.
Tosh, never have I worked in a business where I have been told I am permitted to go around spreading rumours and playing guessing games. Someone said to you : "An announcement is forthcoming, go forth to the internet and give clues in the manner thus?" What company do you work for? PM me I want a job :)

"Confidentiality" means not playing games on an internet forum. Aside from the fact you're ex BA, now work at Manchester and play around in GDS a lot, nobody knows who you are :)
Save the pages of guessing for airliners.net?

[VickersVicount]

"save the pages of guessing for airliners.net"
..what, like you do ? , I fail to see the difference between that forum and here. Its been a long time since it was genuine pilot rumours in here unfortunately. Fine if you want to know about what package holiday 757 is operating from NCL or delays to a subbed TCX or gd forbid, which BA Airbus has a crest or not....:rolleyes:

[MANFOD]

Oh, and there's me thinking this was a rumour network as well as news!

Until a route is formally announced Skip I regard this story as a rumour.

You don't know why or how LAX LHR is privy to the information, directly or from a third party, or the circumstances in which it was relayed to him, so I'm not sure why you are so critical.

[CabinCrewe]

:D LOL. . . !

[LAX_LHR]

To be honest im not even responding to Skipness.

If he wants to be a grumpy old man, then thats his issue to deal with, but given he reports to the mods those who dare to disagree with him, its not even worth replying to him anyway.

Nobody else seems to be taking such an issue with my postings on the new route, so its clear its just him having a moan as usual.

[Ringwayman]

so if it's not been served form MAN before, it rules out 50 or so destinations alone that cover the period since 1986. From what's lefy....

In the USA, we're talking SFO (UA) or DTW (by DL).
For Africa, NBO (KQ) or ADD (ET)
And Asia, NRT (JL or NH)

Other possible places are all ruled out.

Forget the African routes as don't think there's quite enough demand to sustain a link. Are there any trade links between West Midlands and those countries?
Forget both USA routes, would UA really want to launch a marginal at best route to SFO and DL would surely want to restart JFK.

Therefore.... that leaves NRT. Bit of inward tourism possibility and auto industry links out of the West Midlands to Japan. Not sure if the connection from Japan will be that different from out of HKG when CX restart.

[BHX5DME]

Bit of inward tourism possibility and auto industry links out of the West Midlands to Japan

BHX has a runway that can support flights to Japan & China now so why not come straight to BHX ?

Interesting article yesterday re China quote .......

Birmingham Airport Welcomes PM's Talks With Chinese Premier Ahead of Historic Beijing-Birmingham Flights

You are here:Home (http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/)http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/img/breadcrumb-separator.gifNews (http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/meta/news.aspx)http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/img/breadcrumb-separator.gifBirmingham Airport Welcomes PM's Talks With Chinese Premier Ahead of Historic Beijing-Birmingham Flights


17 June 2014

http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/~/media/Images/content/news/800px-China_Southern_Airlines_Airbus_A330-200_web.ashx?h=186&w=275Direct charter flights between Beijing and Birmingham to operate this summer with China Southern Airlines - the first airport outside London to offer direct flights to China.

Birmingham Airport’s CEO has welcomed talks with Chinese Premier Li Keqiang on trade and visa requirements as essential for bolstering UK-China relations.

Paul Kehoe, Chief Executive Officer of Birmingham Airport, said:

“As the only region in the UK to have a positive balance of trade with China we know how essential these talks are. Businesses in the Midlands are telling us they want to fly direct to China which is why we have extended our runway for longer haul destinations and, on 22 July, are delighted to be playing host to the first Beijing flights to a UK airport outside of London.”

Home Secretary Theresa May announced on Monday (16 June) that the Government will introduce easier forms for visa applicants from China and an agreement to allow travellers from China or India to come to the UK on Irish visas.

On 22 July, Birmingham Airport will play host to the first ever flights from and to China from a UK airport outside of London. The charter flights are a result of a joint initiative between Birmingham Airport, China Southern Airlines, Caissa Travel Management Co Ltd and Birmingham China specialist agency, United Travel.

The West Midlands is the only UK region to enjoy a net balance of trade surplus with China, selling £1.74 billion more last year than it imported.

The Prime Minister visited Birmingham Airport in April to announce the completion of the Airport’s new long haul runway extension, allowing direct long-haul flights to emerging economies previously out of reach, such as Brazil and China, as well as tourist hotspots like the West Coast of the USA. The runway is part of the Airport’s £200 million long-term investment programme.

Birmingham Airport has recorded the busiest May in its history, as almost 900,000 passengers passed through the terminal last month, a 5.3% increase compared to the same period last year. May’s figures also saw a major rise in the number of passengers flying on long-haul services from Birmingham, up by 14.5% compared to May last year.

[rutankrd]

Sorry BHX5DME that article is pure fluff and re-work of the previous release of a few months ago when those 3 ! Charters were announced

Nothing exciting really.

You should be concerned that to-date the only new schedules confirmed are a couple of flights to Keflavik and just how is the Biman service developing - Oh yeah it isn't !

Whilst Manchester garner Cathay , TCX schedules to Miami and JFK , something about to be announced Long haul.

Close to completing on a scheduled Air China service as an amendment to the existing bilateral.

And seriously be objective BHX- Brazil and West Coast US really ?

[All names taken]

Look everyone, LAX said Midlands, why does everyone then assume he means West Midlands? And why does everyone assume car bits?

Come on, all we have to do is wait and find out when it's announced. Have patience.

[Guest 112233]

BHX5DME

As a brummie (former) your "Pprune Callsign" either puts you just over a well known hostelry; deriving its name from the origional Anglo-Saxon name for the area concerned. Guess where CATIII grew up -

[Pilots, it's where Concorde Crew's, confirmed three green's and 1240 QFE checks (the noisy power settings changes, for those flap landing settings, occurred over Oscott/Wylde Green,Sutton Coldield; BHX5D); were called as the ADF needle tuned to the GX wobbled]

or the very posh bit of Solihull, abeam a well to do bit, where my Boss came from.

Manchester is now really getting the ecomomic benefits of decisions about developement 40 years ago - Brum is comming along - We shold learn from their experence - The facilities are now in place at BHX. Man really has lead the way for the developement of Civil Avation in the the regions of the UK.

Re-posting of marketing fluff does not help.

Yours politley

CAT III

[Skipness One Echo]

but given he reports to the mods those who dare to disagree with him
I didn't realise you were a mod now as well, the only people I have ever reported I can count on one hand in ten years and were flagged for racist or homophobic abuse. I merely call you out on :
1) Pretending to be somewhat closer to the decision making process than you really are
2) Leading some good people up the garden path
Delta look to be keeping the A330-200 permanently at MAN when it gets introduced this winter, as Summer 2015 also showing the type.
You're just looking in GDS again, Delta have not done "permanently" in the history of the ATL-MAN route, from the B763, to the A310, the TriStar via the A330-300 and now the A330-200. Anyway if 33 is old God help the rest of you.... :)

[Bagso]

MODS

Re the BHX Forum

No other forum contains so many false comparisons and references to Manchester !

"they have services to X so why can't we"

On that basis I have in the past challenged this on THEIR forum and feel, I have put across some well balanced, well constructive and highly reasoned arguments with reference to the Birmingham forum, explaining why services from their are highly niche and very limited .....

(based on an historical dependent infrastructure model and very limited tourist opportunities )

ONLY TO BE SHOT DOWN BY THE MODS

..... I therefore really fail to see why we have to have inflicted upon us, a flagrant breach of the rules with a worthless "puff piece" ABOUT a small regional City near Coventry on the Manchester forum with mocked up images ?

Had this infected "their" forum you would I'm sure be making robust comments !

Please can we have some balance ?

The two airports and Cities are incomparable !

[j636]

Bagso,

give it a break, there is no difference in both forums :mad:

A certain MAN fan boy is always drawing conclusions to BHX on this forum and only today they had to make a post to drive home MAN has a better market than BHX but yet they are not at MAN. Air India......

[LAX_LHR]

I merely call you out on :
1) Pretending to be somewhat closer to the decision making process than you really are


And you know that because? Never realised you knew so much about my personal life (or little about it in this case)


2) Leading some good people up the garden path


Doing what exactly? As said, the only person that seems to have an issue with what I have posted is you, ergo the issue lies evidently with you.

the only people I have ever reported I can count on one hand in ten years

So, the only 2 times I have been reported to the mods, just co-incidentally, were the 2 times when I was interacting with you? Hmmm.


You're just looking in GDS again, Delta have not done "permanently" in
the history of the ATL-MAN route, from the B763, to the A310, the TriStar via
the A330-300 and now the A330-200. Anyway if 33 is old God help the rest of you.... :)


And theres the pedantic side again. You know exactly what I meant, and with that, you are now on my ignore list. As said, you obviously find 'what BA aircraft wears the crest' far more interesting, so, Ill leave you that. Please don't bother posting at me again, I will not respond.

[MANFOD]

Quote:
Bagso, give it a break, there is no difference in both forums.

I don't know what your problem is. He was merely asking the Mods to adopt the same policy to a long post about BHX on the MAN thread as he'd experienced (perhaps unfairly) on the BHX thread. Personally, I feel a reasoned comparison of the two airports for say potential Markets or catchment areas is valid on either thread but to focus on just one airport on the other's thread is not on.

Anyway, let's get back to decent discussion and rumours!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Keep to he topic.


There are NO brownie points on PPRuNe.


Keep your views about mods to yourself - - it is 'YOU' -- whoever you are who make the noises and we have said more than once that MAN is MAN and BXH is BXH both have topics on their own.


I have found in practice that closing a thread to rid us of trolls and the like usually works. Both are earmarked.


If you all try to enjoy PPRuNe we will be happy! I will probably wish I had not said that! :ugh:

[kieb92]

Back to aviation news and according to Jethros all 3 TCX 767-300 to transfer permanantly to Condor so will leave the TCX fleet. Can anyone confirm or indeed whether they will be still Manchester based for 2015 operating as Condor?

According to Thomas Cook website the following flights to transfer to Condor:

1 of 2 weekly Bourgas - Friday Flight

1 of 3 weekly Heraklion - Friday Flight

Also of other things to note, Santorini increases to 2 weekly, Enfidha increases to 5 weekly and 2 flights to Orlando on Tuesday

[Bagso]

Must confess personally I am rather enjoying Man Airport Cluedo

Louisville ?

UPS ?

...does the new warehouse open in 2015 ?


-------------------------------------------------------------


With The Chinese Premier visit over or almost over where is our route to China ?

I utterly disagree with all this on going prevarication re a new Chinese route Ex Manchester.

Quite frankly it is Bollocksology, there really is absolutely NOTHING to negotiate in my book, if this was about London it would be done
"tomorrow" !

I don't see why we have to prostitute ourselves to some faceless civil servant in Whitehall "supposedly" negotiating on behalf of UK interests.

I am interested in Manchester and the benefits to the NWest !

If Air China wish to operate to Manchester Edinburgh or for that matter even Birmingham WHAT is the problem ?


We have "UK Interests" across all the British Isles and if UK airlines will not set up these links but foreign airlines will, then so be it !

[Betablockeruk]

Louisville ?
UPS ?
...does the new warehouse open in 2015 ?

You may mean, when does the DHL logistics hub open? Probably learning from the Berlin debacle, it's hard to find a opening date. I've heard rumours of a daily flight to somewhere but that might just be spotters 2+2=5 theory.

[Bagso]

apols was replying/correcting #3190

UPS to Memphis ?

.... surely UPS is Louisville and FedEx is Memphis

The warehouse should indeed have referred to DHL whose hub is I believe Cincinnati.

Can anybody confirm ?

AND they do operate already "i think" using the 777F operation do they not ?

I would take them all :ok:

[MANFOD]

Quoting Bagso re China service:

"Quite frankly it is Bollocksology, there really is absolutely NOTHING to negotiate in my book, if this was about London it would be done "tomorrow" !

I can't help wondering if London is part of the problem. Could the Chinese, or of course BA, be insisting that any amendment to the bilateral to incorporate MAN has to include extra rights to and from LHR?

[Skipness One Echo]

I don't see why we have to prostitute ourselves to some faceless civil servant in Whitehall "supposedly" negotiating on behalf of UK interests.
I am interested in Manchester and the benefits to the NWest !
If Air China wish to operate to Manchester Edinburgh or for that matter even Birmingham WHAT is the problem ?

Well said bagso, in my experience the problem is not a London one pre se, more an Oxbridge problem. Some of the cleverest people can also be the most hopeless as they cannot see the wider picture and benefits. There are heaps of clever types running MOD Procurement and the Foreign Office and it's not often you can stand back and say "Wow that's working well." Much of the freedoms we enjoy were actually forced through at a European level, and I say that as a Eurosceptic.
Past excuses have been it would be cataclysmic for British interest if American launched MAN-ORD, Singapore were allowed MAN-SIN or even SABENA being permitted to continue MAN-NYC (nearly said JFK but this is old......). Even PIK lost KLM and SAS long haul to save BOAC who of course no longer serve long haul from Scotland, or Manchester. BA are big enough to take care of themselves on this one.
Politics runs on a five year cycle and has no institutional memory within transport I find, so there are genuinely posters on here who know more about MAN than some of our "civil service".

[pwalhx]

When the DHL logistics centre was announced I met with a senior Manager from DHL not long after and he indicated that a flight was possible, but that had not been confirmed at the time. His feeling however was it would be to Leipzig rather than across the pond.

[750XL]

Slots to Leipzig were in the system a while back for DHL but nothing ever came of it.

[Bagso]

The size of the DHL warehouse would surely suggest linkage to the US would it not ?

[Curious Pax]

Doubt it - have you seen the size of the DHL facility at East Midlands? There and Leipzig are their main Euro hubs, which already have US flights, so feeding Leipzig (who also have long haul connections to the east) would make more sense. Given that East Midlands is only 90 minutes away from MAN by road I'm actually surprised that they would consider a flight from here, and can only think that they believe they can fill a 757 several times a week. Given that FedEx can't (our flight goes via Birmingham of course) then we may be suffering from spotters overenthusiasm again - time will tell.

Possibly the main angle in our favour is that the EMA facility does seem very busy, so it may be that a MAN flight would take off some of the pressure there.

[hammerb32]

DHL do a large chuck of JLR's logisitcs - not sure if this ties in to the clues offered by LAX-LHR.

[pwalhx]

Curious_pax is correct, whilst it is a decent size warehouse, it is by no means 'big' in the hubbing sense.

With regard to FedEx one of the main 'raison d'etre' for that flight is so they can offer a next day delivery to all U.S. cities (pre 10.30 in the main metropolitain areas) which is why it goes from Manchester via Birmingham.

[BasilBush]

QUOTE: Must confess personally I am rather enjoying Man Airport Cluedo

More like Twenty Questions (for those old enough to remember). However, the ridiculously boastful teasing around this issue brings to mind my 11 year old niece - "I've got a secret and I can't tell you about it, so don't even ask me." I'm tempted to put on my best Joyce Grenfell voice and respond "well it isn't clever and it isn't grown up!"

[Brian Equator]

Oops sorry must have got my wires crossed, got carried away with the game of "Guess the new destination" and posted in haste.

[DomyDom]

BasilBrush,

I agree this secret squirrel stuff is a little tiresome. It would be better if posters would contribute interesting information rather than playing silly games. My suspicion is that there is no significant new route that the poster is aware of and the whole thing is a 'hilarious' wind-up.If you look at genuine intelligence it either doesn't come out before the route is launched or our usual trusty posters have no issue with passing on snippets as soon as they are able to. A healthy dose of skepticism is definitely in order...

[BasilBush]

DomyDom

Yes, tiresome isn't it? Whether there is any truth in the matter is not really the issue, though. What comes across is a rather sad desire to show how important and well-informed one is, but without actually imparting the relevant facts. A psychologist would have a field day...someone needs more hugs!

[DomyDom]

Good post BasilBrush. My thoughts exactly!

[Bagso]

I feel I must rush to the defence of our esteemed poster disguised as the Reverend Green, sat scrutininig GDS, in the drawing room , holding the candlestick. ....I hope others will !

75% of the most interesting information on here with regard to new routes, pax loads, changes of equipment is in my view actually posted by the one and only poster you are now critising !

The other 20% is usually a peppering of my rants as I toil endlessly about people not doing their job effectively, this is usually laced with some relevant and very worthwhile responses from the usual suspects who agree or beg to differ.

Occasionally "The Shed" is stirred into action and raises his head above the parapet and those postings are always a worthwhile read.

The last 5% usually relates to a few highly detailed moans very specific to an actual experience. Like my my ramblings its nice to "get if off your chest", so to speak, but save for irritating a few people , they fail to raise the pulse level like a good rumour re say Jet Airways, a new route to Detroit OR an increase in capacity/frequency.

Can the same people now criticising, post at least 3 or 4 contributions a week in the same way that the Reverend does, well not seen much lately !

So whilst some "may" find it tedious and irritating why not save your breath for more worthwhile targets as I do, why not put HS2, 3rd party marketeers, local MPs, etc in the crosshairs ?

..otherwise sit back and play the game.

The suns out, we are out of the World Cup BUT hey Crickets on long wave today and im on holiday for 3 days !

[DomyDom]

Mmm.....we will see I guess.

[MANFOD]

Amen to that Bagso.

And for those critics, the original rumour / story was a different poster on another site. Our esteemed contributor on here was initially sceptical, evidently checked it out and concluded the story was correct. As I recall, the hints were in response to questions raised by me and others, so can we have a bit of fair play please.

In my view, this site and this thread would be a lot less interesting if folk were not prepared to air snippets or rumours of new routes, while respecting their right to confidentiality over specific details.

[750XL]

May as well get it over and done with and face the consequences on here :*

I'm hearing 3 x weekly Air China using A330 equipment?

[pwalhx]

Think we all would be happy with that as a start.

[Bagso]

I also heard from a local media organisation that it is a done deal re direct Chinese mainland service.

Still surprised it was not announced during Chinese Premiere visit however.

Best of both Worlds for the Chinese as they are only an hour from the Midlands but catchment also includes all of Northern England to include Merseyside and South Yorkshire.

Major opportunity for business, tourism, freight, etc

[750XL]

Virgin Little Red are back to 4 daily over the winter

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

According to the 'Manchester Evening News', the Manchester Airport Metrolink construction project is running well ahead of schedule (as many of us suspected). Passenger services are expected to commence before the end of 2014. Initially, Manchester Airport to Cornbrook will be operated every 12 minutes. In 2017, following the opening of the second city centre crossing, services will continue to points beyond the city centre. In the meantime, Cornbrook is a useful transfer point.

This is of course excellent news for the airport, and if service is launched more than a year ahead of the originally projected 2016 start-date then plaudits are due to all involved with the project. We are quick to criticise when things go awry. Some bouquets are due here!

I wonder if any Metrolink project planners fancy a job in Berlin?

[viscount702]

May as well get it over and done with and face the consequences on here :*

I'm hearing 3 x weekly Air China using A330 equipment?

We know that a mainland China link is on the cards as it has been talked about for some time. If so great news.

The latest speculation however has been about a flight which was said not to be a China link.

Are there two routes?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Thomson to Phuket would be a logical choice; they already serve Thailand from Gatwick and Tui Nordic fly there from Scandinavia.

[Bagso]

Great news re Metrolink :ok:

....in light of new info on PM maybe its Emirates ?

Seems to be a lot of uncertainty about US carriers in terms of equipment so are they really going to complicate matters further, by identifying the need for another frame, well lets hope so :ok:

That said if they do have spare equipment I think there is a lot to be said for adding more frequency on current routes.

I cannot help thinking that if we had more critical mass that would attract more punters. I am sure with LHR there is the

"damn missed that but we can get the next one syndrome"

Manchester does not have that , multiple frequency would really help !

BUT if its not them I would personally prefer Emirates !

I think I said 12 months ago that everything they touch "appears" to turn to Gold so I am pretty sure that they would make it work.

Like Ryanair they generate traffic where it did not previously exist.

Those business passengers that covert Dubai would instantly use a US service if they did business westbound, pretty sure it would pull in a lot of tourists.

It would also add frequency to Dubai in the other direction which I am sure we now need.

Might be well wrong but great news if its somebody prestigious like them or indeed EITIHAD OR SIA all the better.

Personally I'm convinced its a stopover IF its a current operator.

My only continuing frustration is how mush more could Manchester do if these service were really pushed hard here and at the originating point,
CLT being a case in point.

On a them any news on Rouge bookings......

PS Two Thumbs Up in one post, it must be Summer !

[Bagso]

On a separate note has Manchester responded yet to the Davies enquiry ?

Representation was "finally" called for last month in terms of how regional airports like Birmingham, Leeds etc etc would effect capacity.

Given the tsunami of new long haul services since the Commissions first reported I would have thought Manchester could add some highly critical dare I say cryptic observations to the debate !

[MANFOD]

Quoting SHED-ON-A-POLE:
"I wonder if any Metrolink project planners fancy a job in Berlin?"

I think they may be needed at MAN if that rumoured huge redevelopment of T1/T3 goes ahead!

On the theme of the station, do we know when Platform 4 of the main rail network will be completed and in operation? Or is the timing all tied in with the wider Northern Hub project? More trains means another little boost to the airport.

Bagso, I thought it had been established, or at least suggested, somewhere along the line that the much discussed new long haul route was not a transit flight but is a new destination with an existing (daily) airline, which is why focus has been on a US carrier.

edit. not sure why the smile has appeared just there - never mind, good reasons to be cheerful but don't mention the World Cup.

[roverman]

The rail station 4th platform will lag some way behind the opening of Metrolink (platforms 5 and 6). There is still considerable work to be done on the No.4 trackbed, and to move existing crossover points further down the line to make way for No.4 to tie-in. Capacity of the line going north towards the city is pretty much full, although increased use of electric trains (delivered in the Northern Hub project) may release another path. There will be longer trains of 6 to 8 cars. Plans are in discussion to add another service going south - presently only one per hour to Crewe. Looking at London Midland serving the airport directly from Birmingham or even London.

[rutankrd]

Looking at London Midland serving the airport directly from Birmingham or even London.

Would that be an open access operation as their franchise don't cover any Manchester paths as far as I understand, just the Trent Valley to Crewe and Birmingham to Liverpool and points South of New Street into Euston

[roverman]

According to a First TPE source the intention is to extend existing London Midland service to Crewe on to MAN. I am a regular rail commuter to MAN but not an expert in the rail industry, so my posts on this subject come with a certain caveat. It would seem to make sense though, the airport is well-served by rail from Northern England and from Scotland but not so from the Midlands where a good number of MAN's air passengers originate.

[Bagso]

"According to a First TPE source the intention is to extend existing London Midland service to Crewe on to MAN ".

If true this will make Manchester Airport thee best connected airport by rail in the UK by some distance and something that MAG should be promoting !

It is also something Davies should have also focused on but didn't in his deliberation re UK Airport Commission.

If London Midland do extend Crew to the airport it makes connections to Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke, Stafford, Lichfield etc quite easy improving the airports rail catchment quite impressively.

Ironically Heathrow is one of the worst for majors airports in Europe for public transport "if" you don't live in Central London !

If you live in the Midlands and decide to use LHR you invariably have to go in the opposite direction to your intended location first.

[Capetonian]

Ironically Heathrow is one of the worst for majors airports in Europe for public transport "if" you don't live in Central London !

If you live in the Midlands and decide to use LHR you invariably have to go in the opposite direction to your intended location first.I have more or less stopped using LHR in favour of LGW because transport links are so bad. Between Heathrow and the places I most often go to (Weybridge and the Chilterns area) the public transport links are inadequate, despite the relatively short distances. Mostly it ends up as an expensive taxi ride if I do have to use LHR.

[MANFOD]

Re train services, there have been a couple of unusual ones in the past that proved unsuccessful.

I forget the operator, but there was a Airport - Euston dmu service at very cheap fares (about 15 years ago?) but which wasn't allowed to call at mainline Virgin stations. It stopped at Sandbach for example but not Crewe.

The other was a service to Nottingham via Crewe, Stoke, and Derby which was usually only a 1 coach train. Neither lasted very long.

I assume an extension of the London Midland trains from Crewe would call at some of the Trent Valley stations - Tamworth, Lichfield etc. - but wouldn't go via Birmingham, would they? The alternatives, and I don't know the franchise situations, would be a service via Birmingham to say Bristol, or possibly to South Wales via Crewe, Shrewsbury and Hereford, or simply to route some of the existing services via the airport.

There is of course an hourly local service from Crewe to MAN on Northern Rail, but which involves a change for pax from further south, or they go into Piccadilly and change there.

I guess the extension of the Midland trains makes most sense with perhaps the greatest potential in terms of catchment.

[Capetonian]

The problem with the London Midland trains is that they have far more scheduled stops and take almost an hour longer to cover the journey than the Virgin services. They are significantly cheaper, but for most people, specially travelling on business, the saving would not outweigh the extra time an inconvenience.