MANCHESTER - 9 [Archive] - Page 15

Bagso

20th Jul 2014, 06:31

‘Aerotropolis EMEA’ Conference report: Part 1

The Aerotropolis ? a strategy, not a project. ?Aerotropolis EMEA? Conference report: Part 1 | CAPA - Centre for Aviation (http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/the-aerotropolis--a-strategy-not-a-project--aerotropolis-emea-conference-report-part-1-178262)

Some soundbites /observations by CAPA

In a dig at the south of the UK Sir Howard said the north could be an industrial powerhouse through better surface and air connectivity if only central government would let it.

It was not possible to extract from MAG speakers what MAG’s external investor, Australia’s Industry Funds Management (IFM), thinks about the airport city development

In the latter sense Manchester enjoys an advantage owing to its central location in the UK and the airport’s GBP50 million investment in the Metrolink tram service, which is being extended to the airport.

In the case of some of the investors the number and quality of graduates staying in the city after graduation is of paramount importance. In Manchester’s case this is up to 40% of each year’s graduate output, from what is the UK’s largest city campus.

Interesting points raised in original piece !

Personally I still feel there is a total disconnect between those at the top who at least appear have a clear vision and strategy.... and those charged with actually telling potential passengers about routes once we get them !

There is very little point actually having an Airport City if having gained a route it is not marketed to absolute potential and that connectivity is broken

".....if its marketed for Macduff but then fails, so be it"

at least one tried !

MANFOD

20th Jul 2014, 08:03

As always, thanks for spotting this Bagso and for the link. I'm surprised the conference didn't get coverage elsewhere unless I missed it.

If the CAPA summary is a fair balance, the comments of one speaker give cause for concern.

"Simon Bedford, partner at Deloitte Real Estate: has been involved with the MAG Airport City and described it as still being very much ‘embryonic’. The economic geography in this case is suitable but he re-emphasised the point made by Professor Kasarda that not every airport should aspire to have one; the driving force should be a metropolitan strategy and not every airport is situated in a sufficiently large metropolitan area.

There needs to be an economic case made. For example:

That the airport has global connectivity;
That benefits and outcomes are demonstrated;
That a planning case has been put forward and is supported;
That surface transport has caught up with other developments
.
In Manchester’s case there was a failure to get the strategy right from the outset. There was no joined-up strategy in Greater Manchester regarding employment prospects across the wider region and this became a serious political issue."

The bits in bold print are my emphasis. Hopefully, the points he raised are being addressed.

The CAPA report does of course refer to more positive aspects of Airport Cities and Manchester's case. but it's to the credit of the organisers that it was not merely a flag waving exercise.

Bagso

20th Jul 2014, 08:31

I agree MANFOD

By way of example I assumed that the Southern build would be going full tilt by now based on the ground works which were started a few months back.

I assumed it was a case of building the units first similar to a shopping mall and THEN renting out.

That philosophy "may" seem naive as the build seems to be piecemeal as and when new tenants appear. Only the one unit has gone up.

All the more reason to ensure that ALL new entrants on the airline side succeed.

Joined up thinking or lack of it seems to be a running theme, Cathay are now only a few months from launch, other than Intu training staff to host Chinese spenders I would love to know what other initiatives are happening across the North Of England.

The emphasis thus far seems to be on punters heading East with a complete abdication of punters coming in the other direction !

Passengers wont just fall into our lap, although that seems to be the belief !

LN-KGL

20th Jul 2014, 10:12

I have one comment to the paragraph quoted below from the Aerotropolis article

The consumer population of airports is greater than might be realised, and much larger than that of tourist sites. For example95 million people passed through Atlanta Airport last year, while only 40 million visited Disneyworld and the Grand Canyon combined.

Big tourist attractions like Disneyland and Grand Canyon only count visitor IN to the attraction - airports count both inbound AND outbound. In other words the difference isn't that big as Professor Kasarda try to show when you count visitors (people), but the hassle is larger passing through an airport (border control, baggage claim and customs inbound and check in and security check outbound).

kieb92

21st Jul 2014, 09:24

SSG006 TU154 over Brussels due into MAN at 11am - also 23R.

Bagso

21st Jul 2014, 14:27

Bhx thread suggests Manchester Waterford is canned in Oct. -

Bagso

22nd Jul 2014, 07:39

BHX absolutely milking the charter in there today !

Interesting tweet on BHX twitter today

@Welcome2Brum @ChinaSouthernKR @bhx_official Thank you! Looking forward to serving Birmingham.

Key phrase"looking forward to serving BHX"

Interesting !

crewmeal

22nd Jul 2014, 07:54

Yes Bagso for the next couple of weeks I guess.

Bagso

22nd Jul 2014, 09:16

Let's hope so. I'm in the trenches with you, trust me !

Daza

22nd Jul 2014, 10:00

Bagso wrote Bhx thread suggests Manchester Waterford is canned in Oct.

The flight is not bookable after 25th October. This happened earlier in the year and both flights were removed from sale and then later re-instated.
Daza

MANFOD

22nd Jul 2014, 10:14

I just wish flybe were as proactive at MAN as they are at BHX in terms of routes to mainland Europe. Sure, we've an extensive domestic route network which hopefully also provides some transfer pax, but there are still some unserved European routes that might be viable. Stuttgart and one or two French cities being obvious examples.

LAX_LHR

22nd Jul 2014, 10:19

but there are still some unserved European routes that might be viable.
Stuttgart and one or two French cities being obvious examples

Oporto, Stuttgart, Lyon and Bordeaux would be prime routes for Flybe.

However, I'm slightly cautious about their expansion. They were in quite bad financial shape, and cut bases left right and centre. They seem to have gone all out on expansion at BHX/SEN, and left wondering if that will pay off in the long run. Expansion is good, but, that was a LOT of expansion.

Shed-on-a-Pole

22nd Jul 2014, 13:49

A greater financial concern is FlyBe's expansion plan at LCY. The SEN operation is basically a Stobart Air programme franchised as FlyBe … presumably Stobart will bear the risk there.

BasilBush

22nd Jul 2014, 14:07

FlyBe's financial problems were massively eased by their recent share placement. But the previous management did have a habit of burning cash, including the original BA dowry and the proceeds of the first IPO. Hopefully the new management team will pay more attention to cash flow, but I agree that the LCY venture seems doomed to fail.

Shed-on-a-Pole

22nd Jul 2014, 14:13

With compelling news stories concerning Ukraine and Gaza dominating the headlines, it may have escaped the notice of many that the civil war in Libya has hotted up again. Recent battles between rival factions seeking control of Tripoli Airport have resulted in a reported 47 dead and 120 injured. Several aircraft have been damaged or destroyed, some hit by RPG's. One source suggests that MAN regular TS-INN is amongst the damaged aircraft.

I suspect that the Libyan Airlines MAN-TIP scheduled service will be taking another lengthy sabbatical, but I would love to be proven wrong on this.

MClayton

22nd Jul 2014, 16:04

Does anyone know what terminal our Air France flights arrive at, at CDG ?

CabinCrewe

22nd Jul 2014, 16:13

Terminal 2 E

MClayton

22nd Jul 2014, 17:19

Cheers CabinCrewe

Bagso

22nd Jul 2014, 19:51

Just thinking about MANFODs concerns re Airport City...

I do think this was somewhat telling and was announced few weeks back.... it missed our small portal !

New DHL facility at Manchester cost £100 m

DHL facility "extension" at EMA cost £120 m

We have much back slapping and champagne corks popping re Airport City but this puts things in context

Until we see some mega deals its a bit like the Greg Dykes denial syndrome reflecting on the World Cup,

"Roy Hodgson is a wonderful manager" REALLY ?

I tend to be in the "Geoff Boycott" camp if your assessment is that you believe the cups half empty, you are complacent and should be constantly looking to ways to improve !

MAN777

22nd Jul 2014, 20:25

Im no expert but Im sure that relatively small grey shed that has sprung up for DHL hasnt cost £100 million.

Manchester Kurt

23rd Jul 2014, 03:35

Bagso

23rd Jul 2014, 06:43

£100m DHL Investment ! Really ?

I must confess that's what I thought but a few links one of which I have attached here suggests as much.

I think the leader writers have clearly got there knickers in a twist regarding the overall investment in airport city and the DHL facility.

DHL to open £100m logistics hub at Manchester?s new Airport City (http://www.postaltechnologyinternational.com/news.php?NewsID=54332)

As you can see above it quite clearly states £100m in the headline !

By contrast other articles including the airports own blurb suggest that the whole of Airport City south is only £100m see below

Latest News & Updates | Airport City Manchester (http://www.airportcity.co.uk/news/2012/planning-approval-for-100m-world-logistics-hub-at-manchester)

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Must confess when you hear of the DHL investment at EMA which is after all "only a wee extension" and then look at the comparative investment in terms of mega £s at Manchester I do wonder what we are actually getting ?

They seem to have levelled a good chunk of green belt simply for a fairly basic level of storage/ warehousing.

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Regarding HS3 and 30 mins to Man Airport ...

Does this not suggest the planning of all this is a complete balls up ?

We have HS2 offering the promise of fast transfers from a station near Hale, which effectively will offer the option of high speed transfer for former Manchester passengers to Heathrow (assuming they build the spur) in 1h 8mins.

As I have said before , unless Manchester expands to same rate as LHR (not likely) why would you actually then use Manchester when HS2 is built ?
Does the Man airport USP not erode ?
OK there will still be charters , Lo cost at Man but whose is to say they won't have appeared at LHR by then ?
With investment in a 3rd Runway to pay for absolutely no reason why this won't happen !

Certainly if the focus was on long haul scheduled traffic you would take option of hopping on a train at Hale and get the access to higher frequency, cheaper fares, increased destinations would you not ?

But now (whilst very welcome) we have HS3 offering 30 min tfr into Manchester Airport from the other direction !

In effect passengers from Liverpool , Leeds and Sheffield will be funneled into a central station at the airport itself

OR

as I would describe it the hole left by Mancunians who presumably have just caught the 930am express to Heathrow from Hale !

It all seems a bit disjointed and ill thought out to me !

Everyone seems to be looking at their own bit in total isolation to whats going on next door !

Manchester Kurt

23rd Jul 2014, 07:19

The Heathrow spur won't happen, people will be expected to transfer to Crossrail at Old Oak Common.

HS2 and HS3 are primarily about connecting people economies, take off your aviation glasses see exactly is given existing tracks south full.

It's odd in over 4 years all those who think HS2 is a bad thing haven't offered any alternative that's better joined up, costs less causes disruption.

Maybe the alternatives don't exist.

MANFOD

23rd Jul 2014, 07:40

Although comparing the value of different investment projects can perhaps be misleading at times, it can also put an interesting perspective on things.

Airport City has been quoted I believe as an investment of £650m or £800m and either figure sounded a heck of a lot of money when first announced, but then seems very modest when compared with the sort of sums projected for HS2 or indeed Crossrail currently in the great metropolis.

The logistics hub at MAN according to the MAG article involves over 90 acres of land but 40% of that is for habitats and landscaping. My understanding was that the whole project was £100m and that DHL is just the first tenant. Have I got that wrong? If that is the case, and DHL is only part of it, their investment at MAN, as Bagso suggests, does appear very modest compared to the 'extension' at EMA given as £150m.

I guess it's easy to get impatient with longer term projects but I can't help feeling the initial momentum with Airport City has slowed somewhat with the focus shifting more to the Northern Hub, HS2/3 and other rail projects, and the concept of a Northern cities powerhouse.

Bagso

23rd Jul 2014, 07:55

North West battles for £1m of free advertising

Northern regions battle it out for Heathrow?s £1m of free advertising - Prolific North (http://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/2014/07/northern-regions-battle-it-out-for-heathrows-1m-of-free-advertising/)

OR we could mention that we have a major gateway airport on the doorstep for Lake District, Peak District etc

Words fail me !

And look whose leading the charge, the bloody Tourism Minister !

Where on earth is the challenges / opposition from Manchester airport and our MPs who should be kicking down the door of this imbecile !

That said this is same person who welcomed Birminghams new scheduled service to China on her twitter feed !

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I'll take off my "Aviation glasses" when somebody comes up with an ounce of common sense !

see contradictions re HS3 and HS2 in my last

It not just a case of build and be damned its about joined up thinking and strategic plan !

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Routes have just officially announced the cancellation of Flynas.

But hang on there is good news ........

Man Airport have been heavily "marketing" a 10% discount voucher off breakfasts per twitter feed !

If it can be done for breakfasts maybe, just maybe it can be done for actual services

eggc

23rd Jul 2014, 08:30

airlineroute ‏@airlineroute 4m

flynas Ends Manchester Service from early-August 2014

paul atkins

23rd Jul 2014, 09:35

The two largest-scale investments will be at the firm's East Midlands Airport hub (£90 million) and Southern hub site near Heathrow (£32 million).

Sites in Manchester, Croydon and Sheffield will see changes to their infrastructure including additional warehousing, sorting facilities and operational processes to improve international trade, cut transit times and drive more efficient supply chains for UK businesses. The investment will be made by 2016.

Ken Allen, chief executive of DHL Express, said: "This investment in the UK forms a key part of DHL's global growth and service improvement strategy, following the recent investment of 177 million US dollars (£103 million) in the Middle East.

"With ongoing growth in the US and the development of our European hub in Leipzig, we're strengthening our leadership position through improved service capabilities."

Chancellor George Osborne said: "I am delighted that DHL is continuing to invest in the UK, supporting the growing number of British businesses selling their products abroad.

"This new investment is further evidence that our long-term economic plan is working and Britain is coming back. But the job is not yet done and we must make sure the world's largest companies maintain the confidence they have regained in the UK if we are to build a resilient economy."

Phil Couchman, chief executive of DHL Express in the UK & Ireland, added: "As we celebrate DHL's 40th year in the UK, this investment demonstrates our confidence and commitment to enterprise and British export businesses."

MANFOD

23rd Jul 2014, 09:57

Thanks paul atkins.

That puts some relativity on the MAN investment although there has been talk of introducing their own flights to MAN. Has there been mention of any other (potential) customers for the logistics hub?

LAX_LHR

23rd Jul 2014, 10:12

That said this is same person who welcomed Birminghams new scheduled service to China on her twitter feed !

It sounds like Helen Grant doesn't know much about the aviation industry at all:

Tourism Minister Helen Grant said: “With 13m passengers using the airport every year, Heathrow is the ideal place to showcase the wonderful tourism offer in the UK.

Cant be too picky with that though, its only about 57 million out!

MANFOD

23rd Jul 2014, 10:30

On that evidence, I'm not sure we'd want Helen Grant shouting for MAN!

pwalhx

23rd Jul 2014, 10:31

Regarding DHL you have to remember that EMA is already a major hub in Europe for them, Manchester is merely a spoke, which may well though attract some direct flight injections time will tell.

On the subject of HS3 and other projects I have attended several meetings over the last few weeks which indicate there is a great deal of joined up thinking between Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield on infrastructure projects.

Bagso

23rd Jul 2014, 10:31

You will have to join me on the Grumpy step Lax.

The comments by this MP are completely unacceptable at a time when her boss is talking about rebalancing the economy.

My God she is Tourism Minister, Lakes, Peak District, Dales....they are all within an hour of Manchester

BUT my angst is directed at those tasked with representing us, why are they so mute ?

Even the airport does not seem to have the wit to monitor this type of tripe and respond in kind.

Considering the size of the organisation it appears to project itself with about as much venom as a church mouse !

I can appreciate it may not wish to draw attention to itself but come on, someone has to raise their head above the parapet occasionally.

Charlie Cornish should be rightly apoplectic !

The point is that she is in a position of responsibility, her comments are rehashed to a much wider audience and churning out this trash will leave a mark with some people reinforcing a completely false premise.

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HS3 - But that is the point of course , local government up here will support this and rightly so, BUT that implies that Manchester is the major hub airport for the North of England does it not ? cue Tourism Minister again ?

Therefore why build an HS2 station at Hale ?

It seems inconceivable that they would not put the spur on to LHR despite comments to the contrary. Therefore both projects need consideration in the round
specifically regards Manchester Airport !

One line will funnel demand into a station "on airport" the other "off airport" will draw demand away to the South !
If we are talking joined up thinking AND why isn't the line going anywhere near the World Logistics hub ?

The Lord Giveth, the Lord taketh away

Ian Brooks

23rd Jul 2014, 10:33

Sounds like Yes Minister

Ian

MANFOD

23rd Jul 2014, 10:48

LAX_LHR

23rd Jul 2014, 10:58

I tend to be sympathetic towards MAN but am surprised just how low a profile we maintain most of the time. To misuse a metaphor, I very much hope the legs are paddling extremely hard, but unseen to the general public, below the surface and making worthwhile progress.

To be honest, while advertising is a source of frustration, MAN do seem to do more work behind the scenes than they do up front. Look at it this way.

This year alone, we have had new long haul routes start/announced to Hong Kong, Jeddah, Puerta Vallarta, New York JFK, Miami, Toronto, Charlotte and potentially Los Angeles. There have also been increases in capacity to Abu Dhabi, Chicago, Islamabad and Lahore. Short haul wise, we have had many more new routes, based aircraft, increased frequencies and increased capacity.

There has been very little fanfare about all this.

Then we look at Birmingham. They have been in the media so much promoting their airport, and long haul wise, all they have for '3 years of work', are 3 charters to Beijing. Short haul news is almost exclusively comprised of flybe, with Icelandair and Aegean thrown in for good measure.

Quite frankly, as long as there is a degree of retention, I would much rather be in MAN's position, quietly adding and adding, than in BHX's position, where quite frankly, they are shouting over nothing, and being quite misleading while they are at it.

I mean, Christ, MAN has just run 2 long haul charter flights, an Atlas Air to Los Angeles and a Virgin Atlantic to Kansas City. Lets all run to the media and try and get that plastered all over the media, obviously huge news! :rolleyes:

anothertyke

23rd Jul 2014, 11:22

There is no chance of the Heathrow spur going in to HS2 phase one. The Bill is just about to enter the Committee stage. OK some amendments are sure to be tabled but not of that magnitude.

So, better start thinking now -- if Govt is up for putting the hat on the Y network (Leeds/Sheffield to Manchester/Liverpool), what do the northern cities actually want to max connectivity between them and their hub airport? This is a huge opportunity. Progress needs to be made in the next six months while Ossie is in charge. His successor might be less infrastructure friendly.

TSR2

23rd Jul 2014, 11:22

Very well said Sir.

MANFOD

23rd Jul 2014, 11:24

I agree LAX that MAN through Business Development has been very successful in winning new routes and commend them for it. The passenger figures over the last 2 or 3 years support that view. If I'm not mistaken, I suspect Bagso's arguments are more to do with how publicity might help to ensure new routes from MAN are successful and viable once they've started - the point about a degree of retention you mention.

On the general publicity front, I agree there is a danger of over-hyping a project or announcement if in reality it turns out to be far less than expected or simply a damp squid.

Fairdealfrank

23rd Jul 2014, 15:11

I hear that northern cities local authorities will respond to Osborne HS3 proposal next month.

Plans include Leeds, Sheffield and Liverpool all being 30 mins by rail to Manchester airport.

Also hear plans have cross party support in Whitehall.
Linking up the northern cities is actually a very good idea, the present links are not nearly good enough. However, the Liverpool-Ringway/Manchester-Leeds-Sheffield routes need to use existing main stations at the airport and city centres. It should also be built as soon as…..it is as urgently required as LHR’s third rwy.

As I have said before , unless Manchester expands to same rate as LHR (not likely) why would you actually then use Manchester when HS2 is built ?
To avoid the higher fares of HS rail and the hassle of travelling to an inconveniently located HS station (Hale) and then to avoid faffing around at Old Oak Common, while carrying luggage. It will be much longer than (the frankly laughable) 1 hour 8 minutes.

A flight from Ringway goes straight to LHR-5 (BA) or LHR-2 (VS) or AMS, CDG, FRA if preferred, with luggage checked through to final destination.

Does the Man airport USP not erode ?
No.

OK there will still be charters , Lo cost at Man but whose is to say they won't have appeared at LHR by then ?
They may do, but that will impact on LGW, LTN and STN more than on MAN.

Certainly if the focus was on long haul scheduled traffic you would take option of hopping on a train at Hale and get the access to higher frequency, cheaper fares, increased destinations would you not ?
One has got to get to Hale, inconvenient, expensive and time consuming for most, especially with luggage. May as well fly out of Ringway and connect at Heathrow (see comments above).

It's odd in over 4 years all those who think HS2 is a bad thing haven't offered any alternative that's better joined up, costs less causes disruption.Nothing wrong with the principle, it’s the cack-handed way they’ve gone about it:

stations in the middle of nowhere when they should be at rail hubs (same principle as aviation);

via Birmingham for pax travelling Manchester/Leeds-London and vice versa;

a route designed to upset everyone and require expensive tunnelling.

Using centally located stations for interchanges and following existing rail/motorway corridors (with the "Y" at or near Rugby) surely makes much better sense as the environmental impact has already been made.

getonittt

23rd Jul 2014, 15:17

Then we look at Birmingham. They have been in the media so much promoting their airport, and long haul wise, all they have for '3 years of work', are 3 charters to Beijing. Short haul news is almost exclusively comprised of flybe, with Icelandair and Aegean thrown in for good measure.

I agree with you and BHX is my local airport . The hype is cringe-worthy to be honest . Yes , I myself congratulate any new service but do not keep reminding ppruners at every opportunity .
But hey , what about the flip side. When a service is pulled or reduced we have at least a page and a half of doom and gloom and the snipes from all corners . Take Air Blue as a case in point , the tremors from that went on for at least a week and yet when they ceased the Manchester flights it just quietly slipped away . And what do I see here above ? "Flynas ends Manchester service " Just one line and everyone carries on as normal - be thankful for small mercies!!

Manchester Kurt

23rd Jul 2014, 15:43

HS2 station at Hale serves the vast number of premium fare passengers who currently use the WCML from Macclesfield, Wilmslow and Stockport with great motorway access to south Manchester and north Cheshire and also had benefit it'll be next to airport and will no doubt receive additional Metrolink / alternative connections to the airport before opening.

Again, after >4 years no one has suggested anything credible as alternative, the pattern continues here where no one has offered a credible alternative.

The idea being that if there are loads of point to point passengers between Manchester London Brum and London, take off the full WCML onto a new track leaving much more space old network for more services to places with lower passenger flows.

Why you'd possibly force those Manc passengers to change at Brum when they fill the train good knows.

kieb92

24th Jul 2014, 04:01

Do we have any information regarding the potential DHL base at Manchester that was rumoured a few months back?

yeo valley

24th Jul 2014, 04:56

read back a few posts and its on there about DHL

kieb92

24th Jul 2014, 05:42

Yeah read about the infrastructure in one of the previous posts, just wondered if there was any plans for flights as rumoured?

Bagso

24th Jul 2014, 07:53

"LIVERPOOL business and tourism chiefs are hoping to score with investors in the US during Liverpool Football Club's pre-season tour.Marketing Liverpool and Liverpool Chamber of Commerce are working with the football club to make the most of opportunities to promote the city region, with a focus on the match against Manchester City in New York’s Yankee Stadium on July 30"

International Trade / Business and tourism chiefs hope to score with LFC US tour THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/646719-business-and-tourism-chiefs-hope-to-score-with-lfc-us-tour.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NorthWest_23rd_Jul_2014_-_Daily_E-mail)

This is precisely what I said Manchester, and Manchester Airport should have been doing on the MUFC and indeed MCFC tours.

We have one of the largest sporting brands in the World and seemingly nobody has a clue how to capitalise !

Quite incredible really.

Fortunately at least Manchester Airport with numerous flights to the US should more by accident be the beneficiary of this move by Liverpool.

MANFOD

24th Jul 2014, 08:17

The BBC Business reporter for 'Breakfast' was at MAN this morning in T2.
Only saw her on the News Channel just before 09.00 talking to an airport guy about security - don't know if she was on earlier. When asked about the time to get through security with the extra screening, I didn't hear him mention they had recruited more staff to help matters, which might have been useful (unless I missed it).

Also a couple of items today in the M.E.N Business section - comments by the new Divisional Chief Exec. for MAG Property and a piece referring to Airport City with a survey showing we are getting more business travellers from the likes of India and China.

Nothing earth shattering but welcome all the same.

LAX_LHR

24th Jul 2014, 17:08

New Ryanair Shannon flight times:

FR4777 SNN 0715 MAN 0825
FR4776 MAN 0850 SNN 1000

Mon-Fri SNN based A/C

FR4776 MAN 1845 SNN 1955
FR4777 SNN 2020 MAN 2130

Sat MAN based A/C

FR4776 MAN 2025 SNN 2135
FR4777 MAN 2200 SNN 2310

Sun MAN based A/C

Flights from 26th October.

LAX_LHR

24th Jul 2014, 17:27

In other news.

It looks like Icelandair are adding a 4th weekly flight on Sundays from next summer. Fares are bookable in GDS but not on the website yet. Uses same flight times/numbers as the Mon, Wed, Fri flights.

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Vueling have some flights bookable from Manchester.

Dates are 20/27/29 December, and 2/3 January.

Flight numbers are VY8732/8733. No idea what these flights are for, but, still hearing that January will see s full schedule launched. GDS is showing 4 weekly flights from 2/1/15-26/7/15, so, I guess we will have to wait and see.

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Ian Brooks

24th Jul 2014, 18:14

guess they are keen to get Christmas and new year up and running asap

Ian

LAX_LHR

24th Jul 2014, 19:05

Vueling have also finally added a full destination page for MAN:

Destinos (http://www.vueling.com/en/cities/cheap-flights-to-Manchester)

They also have MAN airport info in the airports section too.

Ringwayman

24th Jul 2014, 20:48

MAN timetable has it showing 3 weekly (Mon, Fri, Sat)

daynehold

24th Jul 2014, 21:45

I've been catching up on the Manchester forum & its left me feeling pretty grumpy. May be mistakenly I thought PPRUNE was a pilots (aviation) website and not a review for the film Planes Trains and Automobiles!! So please stop talking about HS2, buses and the like and focus on aviation issues at Manchester Airport. Yours etc "Humbug"

ZOOKER

24th Jul 2014, 22:18

daynehold,
all the other subjects discussed affect the operation of the airport and it's surroundings. The other airport threads cover a wide range of related topics pertinent to each individual airfield.
Far more interesting than a 'who's flying where with what' rumour mill.

kieb92

25th Jul 2014, 04:52

From this post, is it referring to 1 of 5 new routes from MAN or Shannon?

https://twitter.com/Ryanair/status/492326267262627840/photo/1

Ringwayman

25th Jul 2014, 05:49

It's from MAN but the SNN route is the only "proper" new route as the others are already currently being flown but have not been done in the winter timetable before, so proper FR spin at play.

Bagso

25th Jul 2014, 06:36

They are Manchester

Have already been announced albeit with a touch of RYR spin.....but hey why not !

LOW cost carrier Ryanair has added a fifth new daily flight to its winter schedule out of Manchester Airport with a Shannon service.
The schedule also includes new routes to Barcelona, Fuerteventura, Gran Canaria and Lisbon and increased frequency on three others, Madrid, Riga and Rome. It is also flying to the Dutch city Eindhoven four times a week.

Re Vueling, is this the first time that an airline timetable has actually appeared 6 months ahead of launch on the MAN website ?

I will have to go and lie down !

Perish the though that somebody has a bit of vision and a whiff of creativity and actually thought potential passenger may actually be planning their trips 6 months before they fly rather than 6 days !

Maybe there is a spotter from here in account management ?

Shame a certain Middle East airline didn't use the same Irish and Spanish template re marketing or were given a helpful nudge !

And what of Icelandair, 4 a week according to PM, great news !

brian_dromey

25th Jul 2014, 13:24

It is good to see the, eventual, arrival of Vueling to MAN. I wonder if VG will launch flights to other destinations, of most interest could be MAD, which could be a good connection to IB flights to south america. Many VG flights carry IB flight codes and can be booked as interline flights.
I can only assume that it is not coincidence that VG serve ALC, BCN, PMI, AGP and SVQ from Cardiff, which was a previous bmibaby base. VG is owned by IAG, which purchased bmi. I would assume that VG have direct access to any information they want from the WW days.

GrahamK

25th Jul 2014, 13:54

Just a point to note with regards Vueling and Cardiff - Seville is only 2 positioning flights, this is not a regular route.

Does MAN need more carriers on BCN, AGP, ALC, PMI, IBZ, MAH? Fares are substantially cheaper than other UK airports as it is, suggesting overcapacity?

Shed-on-a-Pole

25th Jul 2014, 15:08

This additional Ryanair capacity is great news. To put it in perspective, the new SNN service alone will bring far more new passengers through MAN's doors than the loss of FlyNas will deduct. Indeed, whilst it is always extremely disappointing to see a scheduled service fail, it always seemed a big ask for MAN-JED to support two 3x weekly widebody operations. Those relatively few customers who booked with FlyNas can easily be absorbed by the Saudia operation. Disappointing for FlyNas and the aviation enthusiasts amongst us, but at airport level those passengers will still be coming through the doors at MAN.

Air transport has always been a cut-throat business. Failures and setbacks are part of the landscape, but if new business exceeds the capacity withdrawn then we're on the right track. The new Ryanair to SNN will put pressure on the existing Aer Lingus Regional schedule on the same route. The additional Barcelona runs with Ryanair and Vueling will impact incumbent players on that route. It would be nice (but probably naive) to hope that business is sufficiently robust to allow all carriers to prosper. In reality, there will be more like FlyNas and the industry must take such setbacks in its stride.

Bagso is of course entirely correct in his assertion that MAG should ensure that all MAN's airline customers are given the best possible support in terms of publicity. Give them the best chance we can. MAG needs to actively promote awareness of services available, but in a manner which does not appear to favour one carrier over another. There can be no repeat of the Cathay - SIA PR disaster. But that all comes down to sound knowledge of the airport's full portfolio of services, something which one hopes that MAG will henceforth be paying very close attention to. It is incumbent upon them to support all its loyal operators equally, not just the 'flavour of the day' newcomer.

Right now it looks like 'business as usual'. Extra Ryanair routes, Vueling, Cathay on the launch-pad; FlyNas (gone), FlyBe - Waterford, Libyan - Tripoli, EgyptAir - Cairo giving cause for concern. Expansion by Thomas Cook and Condor, Etihad's upgrades to B77W's, possibly extra Qatars and Icelandairs. Potential capacity reductions from Monarch and Jet2? There will always be winners and losers.

Personally, I'm hoping that MAG will endeavour to hone its PR efforts along the lines that Bagso has called for. They need a joined-up plan to promote awareness of the full portfolio of services offered by carriers operating through MAN. Their initiative must be driven by an in-house team with inherent knowledge of MAN's existing portfolio. A sub-contracted PR-type tasked with a narrow brief to promote a product they don't understand will not suffice. Does MAG contract out its PR? I don't know, but I wonder whether an internal PR chief would have been unaware that SIA operated (daily!) to MAN? That fiasco MUST serve as a wake-up call to MAG. There can be no return to PR blunders of such magnitude. Incorrectly briefing the Prime Minister for a high-profile speech on links to the Far East has to mark the lowpoint of PR failure. Line in the sand moment. No repeat, please!

Manchester Airport does present quite a tough challenge from a PR point-of-view. This is because the airport has an unusually broad portfolio of carriers rather than one overwhelmingly dominant player. MAG must tread a careful path between promoting 'XYZ Airways' to Barcelona as opposed to ALL carriers serving Manchester - Barcelona. So perhaps MAG needs to focus on destination-marketing as opposed to identifying too closely with one named carrier. It is good to note recent moves in this direction because inaction is not an option. 10% off car parking and breakfast vouchers is all fine, but let's see real effort directed towards promoting things to do around Shannon, Eindhoven, Barcelona, Reykjavik, Miami and the rest. THEN tell 'em how to get there! When services do fail (and some will), let us not lament in hindsight that "its because nobody knew Manchester had flights going there!"

Bagso

25th Jul 2014, 20:42

It's worth being here just to read "The Sheds" occasional musings.

As a template the London City output is worthy of note. This week they focused on Cities and whilst I suspect each route is dominated by one airline the strategy was the same, similar wording "why not fly London City to xxxxxxxx" followed by a good link with the offering.

Of course its debatable who is following, let alone who is actually reading but on that basis offering a 10% discount for parking to a twitter follower in Bolivia is as equally worthless. ...but if you have 120k following , at least have a go.

In order to dispel the mutual appreciation syndrome I would disagree with Shed in terms of why it failed.

The target audience to me were visitors to Mecca, rather than Arabic, they were predominantly Pakistan Muslims, a massive catchment area and one which I feel could have been exploited on a low cost basis.

By way if example with the BBC always anxious to appease all sectors of society I'm pretty sure an interview promoting access to Holy Cities could have easily been picked up by Radio Manchester, Blackburn, Leeds.

Target Jeddah. ..NOT a specific airline but have the message couched in terms that doesnt promote one over the other.

It may not have made any difference but the other option appears to have been sit on your hands.

One failure is one too many , grab the opportunity by the b@@@s and at least have a go !

Don't forget whilst easy to dismiss other entrant airlines may think look at this and think , fragile market, no support from hosts, and walk away !

Bagso

25th Jul 2014, 20:58

Is it outsourced ?

Pretty sure myself, Shed and Manfod, plus a few others could put in a suitable tender !

rkenyon

25th Jul 2014, 21:38

LIVERPOOL business and tourism chiefs are hoping to score with investors in the US during Liverpool Football Club's pre-season tour.Marketing Liverpool and Liverpool Chamber of Commerce are working with the football club to make the most of opportunities to promote the city region, with a focus on the match against Manchester City in New York’s Yankee Stadium on July 30"

International Trade**/**Business and tourism chiefs hope to score with LFC US tour THEBUSINESSDESK.COM

This is precisely what I said Manchester, and Manchester Airport should have been doing on the MUFC and indeed MCFC tours.

We have one of the largest sporting brands in the World and seemingly nobody has a clue how to capitalise !

Quite incredible really.

Fortunately at least Manchester Airport with numerous flights to the US should more by accident be the beneficiary of this move by Liverpool.

And what a great job they did of it... Putting a tacky "Liverpool Tour 2014" scarf on some Boston Bombing memorial whilst looking glum. That went down well...

Griefest.

Skipness One Echo

25th Jul 2014, 21:39

Maybe this wider discussion around the region and the ongoing thoughts around marketing and PR deserves it's own thread? Please. Pretty please?

See also trains. Lots of trains.

ZOOKER

25th Jul 2014, 22:55

Bagso…….
"and what of Icelandair, 4 a week, great news".
Assuming there are botties to sit on the seats.
In 2002, the Zookermobile was off the road for a week…I had to get the bus to Ringway. Fortunately, that nice Mr. Bullock had laid on a spanking-new bus-service, just for me.
Used the bus for my 0600 UTC start for a week, - excellent. There were only 2 of us on the bus…Me and the driver.
Zookermobile repaired, bus service withdrawn about a fortnight later.
Can't get to the airport, bot if I could, there'd be a plane to Keflavik.
Monster.

Shed-on-a-Pole

26th Jul 2014, 02:53

Skipness … I do understand your point, but your comment amply demonstrates that your location is remote from Manchester Airport and the issues which affect the site.

If you were at Manchester Airport you would see the new Metrolink infrastructure which has now reached Manchester Airport Interchange. Services should commence by the end of 2014. Metrolink will be a godsend to a number of airport staff (notably shiftworkers), some of whom read PPRuNe. If you were at Manchester Airport you would see preparations for the fourth 'heavy rail' platform at the airport station. You would also see the new trains which now operate hourly between Manchester Airport Station and Scotland. These alternate between Glasgow and Edinburgh, then link Carlisle and points South to Manchester Airport. Carlisle to Manchester Airport now takes H2.11 with no changes required. All part of the 'Northern Hub' enhancements which also improve access between Manchester Airport and points east of the Pennines beyond Leeds. Hence we discuss trains. Lots of trains. Because the improvements to them directly impact the reach of air services using Manchester Airport. And they affect staff access. They're relevant. Although I do understand that such is difficult to discern from your vantage point in Babylon-on-Thames.

If your livelihood depended on Manchester Airport you would be concerned when a scheduled flight fails with few in the region ever having realised the service existed. Who knew about FlyNas? Where is the publicity for EgyptAir? Who knew we used to have a Ryanair scheduled service to Tours … perfectly located for visits to the beautiful Chateaux of the Loire Valley? Who told the NW public that Tours is the perfect point-of-entry for visits to the Loire Valley region? Nobody … that's who. Such failures constitute valid discussion points for those whose professional futures rely on the success of carriers serving Manchester Airport.

Manchester Airport's marketing used to be the best in the business many moons ago. Individuals including Paul Connellan and Tim Jeans did an outstanding job promoting the airport … they were visible, everybody knew they were the guys responsible for marketing. Do you remember how the airport encouraged Tal'at Mahmoud in leveraging his links with Asian carriers? I think he also assumed responsibility for domestic services as well (before the big downturn). Yes, Manchester did have a couple of marketing dumbbells as well (mentioning no names, but particularly the guy who was too grand to engage with no-frills carriers when it really mattered). At least back then the marketing guys were accountable. They were visible. We knew who they were.

Who does the marketing now? Is it all done in-house or not? Didn't they consolidate the role down at EMA at one point … a truly dumb move. I'm not sure MAN has ever recovered from that, but such scenarios could explain why the airport's PR crew didn't know that Singapore Airlines operated here. A misunderstanding duly promulgated by misinformed parties including the Prime Minister and the 'Manchester Evening News'.

I like to think I know more than the average punter about Manchester Airport, but I don't know who the current marketing chief is. Why doesn't this person have a public profile like Connellan and Jeans used to have? Why are they invisible? Is MAG's marketing still consolidated off-site (at EMA???). Their profile is so low it is difficult to even know. And when we see poorly-researched press releases … EasyJet: Manchester's first scheduled service to Moscow? … Cathay Manchester's first direct service to the Far East (???!!!) with the PM and the MEN fully briefed with that message … well, I think that is a valid concern for discussion on the Manchester Airport thread.

Manchester Airport's hit-and-miss marketing strategy controlled by invisible and seemingly unaccountable personnel is a matter of legitimate concern to those who have a vested interest in the future success of Manchester Airport. It is a valid topic for discussion amongst the airport's staff and customers. We want to see enthusiastic, joined-up marketing driven by a visible leader in the tradition of Paul Connellan and Tim Jeans. We need that high-profile personality networking with the regional media from their onsite office at Manchester Airport getting the message out there!

The marketing efforts we see now are just a shadow of what they have the potential to be. And when some services are falling by the wayside due to lack of awareness … see the recent discussion with LN-KGL about the impression NAX now have of MAN … well, there is legitimate cause for concern. Yes, passenger numbers have grown in encouraging fashion of late. But we're STILL below 2006/7 levels. And don't even mention the collapse in air freight … who is marketing to that sector? There is no room for complacency yet.

And where is the correct venue to discuss marketing issues at Manchester Airport? For me it has to be the Manchester Airport thread. Where else? Do you genuinely believe that the mods would like to see seperate threads entitled 'Public Transport Access Improvements at Manchester Airport' or 'Marketing Strategy at Manchester Airport'? I'm guessing they might not be overly impressed!

Bottom line: the new developments improving [heavy / light] rail-access to Manchester Airport are of primary importance to the future success of the operation. The effectiveness of MAG's marketing strategy is critical to the future of Manchester Airport. Such issues are directly relevant to discussion here.

Of course, we all have preferred topics which engage us more than others. But it is easy to skip posts which don't interest us personally. Marketing, infrastucture developments and ground transport issues don't interest everybody but that does not mean they should be ignored. I tend to gloss over the posts discussing handling agents winning / losing contracts, but I recognise that they are essential reading to many staff at the airport … hence it is fitting that they are discussed on the thread. Those posts shouldn't be excluded because they bore me. It is incumbent upon the individual reader to decide which Manchester Airport topics interest them in particular … then read, skim or skip accordingly. By definition, postings in a well-frequented public forum cannot be tailor-made to suit the specific tastes of any one individual reader. We must each be our own 'editor'.

Let the lively discussion continue. All of it. Even the handling agent chatter which doesn't interest me personally! 'Manchester' is one of the best threads on PPRuNe with lots of well-informed contributors and intelligent discussion. Why discourage that? Why dumb down to appease those who don't appreciate the big picture overview?

I'm going to drink to continued lively debate on ALL issues pertinent to Manchester Airport's future progress. In fact, I'm off to fetch the Vimto right now!

Best Regards to all! SHED.

MANFOD

26th Jul 2014, 06:58

Shed, I enjoyed reading your last 2 posts as always for the clear, articulate and polite way you express your views.

In this case, your knowledge of some of the past executives who made an impact at Manchester Airport even rang a few bells in my failing memory bank.
Tim Jeans went on to hold very senior positions at Liverpool Airport and Monarch Airlines so was something of a rising star at Manchester.

As I recall, Paul Connellan was a director at MAN in Gil Thompson's time, but didn't his role encompass both Marketing and Business Development? (And Gil himself was fairly prominent and influential in that area!). Haven't these two functions been separated, and there is maybe a perception that while the latter is rightly regarded as an increasingly vital part of the Airport's business, the former has been downgraded somewhat. The other change in the management structure over the last 20 years or so has been the growing importance of the wider commercial activities of the airport other than pure aviation, from shopping malls to car parking and the property portfolio.

As regards Aviation Business Development, there have been periods of economic downturn when I gather effort in that department has had to be concentrated on retaining the airlines and routes we held rather than on gaining new business. It seems to me this is where coordination between that department and Marketing is still a key factor, and it's not hard to conclude that isn't always happening as evidenced by the recent CX/SQ PR disaster and the lack of any obvious promotion for the Cairo and Jeddah services.

I do of course agree that topics such as Marketing, Infrastructure developments and Transport links are essential ingredients to the future of Manchester Airport and trust they will continue to be intelligently discussed by you, Bagso and others on this forum.

Ian Brooks

26th Jul 2014, 07:21

What a very good post Shed, to me Manchester has the most balanced
selection of any and always interesting reading

Ian

Bagso

26th Jul 2014, 08:38

Tim Jeans is I believe is torch bearer at Monarch

---------------------------------------------------

Skippy as an "aviation analyst" why not give us your views on exactly what we s/b discussing ?

Marketing , no not keen on that ....!

Local transport , Trains, yuck definetily not keen on that !

Building Infrastructure, no not keen on that .....!

Strategy, no not keen on that......!

Movements/Diversions maybe, hmmm bit spotterish, no not keen on that !

UK Capacity maybe, ah the sweet taste of consenus, but seemingly that only effects LHR so NO we can't discuss on MAN as we are merely a regional, (don't want to infect Westminster policymakers with some pesky expansion up North).

Is it rumours/routes if so Lax provides some excellent info , but hold fast , he also seems to get it in the neck.

I'm genuinely not sure what is left !

Do we really have to hold up a an illuminated sarcasm sign every time somebody posts something with which you disagree ?

So with that in mind , fire away the floor as they say is yours :ok:

Mr A Tis

26th Jul 2014, 10:25

Another great post by Shed - hits the nail on the head.
I'm trying to find out the people / department responsible for the chopping of the bus subsidies. These subsidies were part of the "deal" for the second runway and the 2030 strategy for shifting passengers and staff from car to public transport.
The point is, MAG has become invisible, apart from offering breakfast vouchers, they appear to not want to engage with people.
Twitter posts are lamentable and don't even think of getting a reply from customer services.

By the way Bagso, Tim Jeans left Monarch in 2011. I think he is involved with Canadian Affair these days & maybe other companies too.

110Cornets

26th Jul 2014, 10:56

Is it true that the bilateral with China was signed mid July?

If so can we expect the imminent announcement of MAN - BJS on CA?

Fairdealfrank

26th Jul 2014, 11:49

LAX_LHR

26th Jul 2014, 12:12

EgyptAir - Cairo giving cause for concern

Just to repeat what was said earlier in the thread, Egyptair are operating CAI-MAN this winter, they are always late putting the next seasons flights on offer due the current CAI-UK bilaterals.

The late loading of flights has happened every season since they restarted.

Bagso

26th Jul 2014, 15:06

LAX

Just to repeat what was said earlier in the thread, Egyptair are operating CAI-MAN this winter, they are always late putting the next seasons flights on offer due the current CAI-UK bilaterals

Is that UK Cairo bilaterals OR Cairo -Manchester ?

Do you happen to know if they have same issue out of LHR ?

LAX_LHR

26th Jul 2014, 19:49

Is that UK Cairo bilaterals OR Cairo -Manchester

It is a UK wide policy.

UK-rest of Egypt is unlimited, however Cairo is subject to bilaterals.

LHR-CAI has a permanent long standing agreement, but carriers have to apply to up frequency. Equipment type is allowed to be changed.

MAN-CAI runs on a temporary licence, that has to be applied for each season. Egyptair have applied for a long term licence, but Im not sure why its taking so long to grant.

On the subject of bilaterals:

Is it true that the bilateral with China was signed mid July?

It was due but not signed yet. Air China have spent their own money trying to get an addendum to add Manchester flights, but as yet has not been granted.

LAX_LHR

26th Jul 2014, 19:56

Worth noting that the Manchester destination page on Vueling now lists many connecting possibilities.

Cant be just charter flights offering all that?

RoyRoy

26th Jul 2014, 20:02

Hi

Whats wrong with the TOM145 today? Is it cancelled?

TSR2

26th Jul 2014, 21:18

Whats wrong with the TOM145 today? Is it cancelled?

Still listed as arriving on-time at 06.40 tomorrow morning.

Do you know something otherwise?

Bagso

26th Jul 2014, 21:49

Re Egyptair and Air China.

Totally unacceptable if what we are hearing is correct.

This would be fixed with a swipe of ink if it were London.

So where are the "custodians of Manchester", don't forget they hold the keys, they do not however have entitlement to them.

Are they kicking in doors, even at 2300 on Sat night ?

AND the Hounorable Member for Wythenshawe Labour ..hellooooo

AND The Honourable Leader of the 1922 backbenchers a local fellow ATory last seen suggesting RW3 is a splendid idea.

What the hell are they doing in respect of this ?

Bloody hell if there were gongs handed out for "relaxed complacency" we would have a queue up here.

This is simply not good enough !

RoyRoy

27th Jul 2014, 07:32

Hi TSR2

Family on the flight said flight was cancelled, which im guessing why its now due at 21:55

Regards

kieb92

27th Jul 2014, 08:52

Are there any updates with regards to the long haul route for next summer? All seems to have gone fairly quiet on that front.

LAX_LHR

27th Jul 2014, 09:10

Are there any updates with regards to the long haul route for next summer?
All seems to have gone fairly quiet on that front.

The airline in question has now begun to announce new routes for next summer, so, if the rumours are true, we should see some movement soon.

kieb92

27th Jul 2014, 10:32

Well if rumours are correct then Delta has just announced Salt Lake City to Amsterdam for Summer 2015. Delta seemed to be the front runner on the rumour front. Fingers crossed for an announcement from which ever airline it maybe.

All names taken

27th Jul 2014, 19:17

Re Egyptair and Air China.

Totally unacceptable if what we are hearing is correct.

This would be fixed with a swipe of ink if it were London.

So where are the "custodians of Manchester", don't forget they hold the keys, they do not however have entitlement to them.

Are they kicking in doors, even at 2300 on Sat night ?

BAGSO
Quite right.
What we need is a 2014 version of the dynamic duo of Gil Thompson and Margaret Thatcher who fixed it for SQ and AA - who are both still here 25 years later.
Where is the fire in the belly from back then?

Problem ==Solution == Sorted == Carry on.

Suzeman

27th Jul 2014, 19:28

Shed - very perceptive posts on here as usual, making the important points that infrastructure, access and marketing issues are integral to the health - or otherwise - of the airport. Anyone who does not realise that should not be in the airports' business......So entirely legitimate points to make in any discussion about Manchester.

Some interesting recollections of some of the "visible people" in days gone by. Paul Connellan is still around the aviation business and Tim Jeans was of course a big cheese at Ryanair before going to Monarch and then onwards. These faces and more were to be found at Gil's memorial service last year.

A big re-shuffle of Airport middle and junior management took place in 2006 when the airline marketing side was reduced to a small number and numerous other departments were also reduced in size. I am given to understand that re-organisations have been commonplace thereafter, so I wonder how many people stay in the same post for any length of time. In the days Shed is talking about there was a certain longevity to organisational structures and faces which I suspect enabled people to "get under the skin" of their subject. Which in those days was of course only Manchester ...Now it's a group with multiple airports to look after, maybe the focus is lost?

Once upon a time Airline Marketing, Marketing and PR were quite well integrated. Have no idea how it is done now and I kept arguing with Bagso that things must be happening behind closed doors and he just wasn't seeing them. But it would seem from what I read here that the actual flight and promotional messages are not even getting out, rather than getting out and having no effect. So sorry Bagso.

It also seems entirely frustrating that the Airport is still reportedly having a problem with bilaterals after all the decades of effort put into lobbying and influencing. Gil would have had his team "kicking in doors, even at 2300 on Sat night" and local MPs would have been mobilised to get the Chinese thing sorted. Is this going on and we just don't know? Let's hope so and that some good news will be forthcoming soon.

Don’t talk Ringway down, it is an important part of the UK’s aviation structure and the most important apart from Heathrow/Gatwick. It’s much more than just a regional airport.

Don't think people are - but they are arguing it could be a lot better if some of the basics were done correctly - especially when it had such a good record in the past.

Suzeman

27th Jul 2014, 19:59

What we need is a 2014 version of the dynamic duo of Gil Thompson and Margaret Thatcher who fixed it for SQ and AA - who are both still here 25 years later.

Just for some political balance, there were a fair few successes too under the Labour administrations. Most of this was done in conjunction with the airline and government departments in the background rather than the high profile public campaigns concerning AA and SQ.

MANFOD

27th Jul 2014, 20:23

Suzeman, I'm sure you are right about the changes in management and its structure that have taken place at MAN.

As I understand it, there was a period of years when management consultants were brought in several times to assess the structure and personnel involved.
Consequently, staff were having to re-apply for their existing job or to apply for new posts. I imagine it must have been a difficult and unsettling time for junior and middle management employees.

Interesting if Paul Connellan is still around in the aviation business. Was he still at MAN when Gil retired do you recall? I met him but can't just place the time scale relative to when Gil retired and GM was eventually appointed.

When you refer to Airline Marketing I assume you mean what became known as Business Development (on the Aviation side). I'm sure those guys work hard to court airlines, win new business and build relationships with them, not least to help try and retain their custom when times get tough. Surely, as Bagso, Shed and yourself have stated, it's imperative that MAN seek to ensure the destinations served are properly promoted while not being seen over time to favour a particular airline over another.

A final question - at one time I had a feeling that minutes of meetings with Manchester Council and the airport were available to the public. Was this before the other 9 local authorities were involved as shareholders?

Shed-on-a-Pole

27th Jul 2014, 21:22

MANFOD … Check your PM's! Best Regards, SHED.

North West

27th Jul 2014, 22:19

There are two schools of thought re: MAN.

An industry perspective, which is that it over performs relative to the immediate catchment. Something like 75% of the passenger throughput comes from outside Greater Manchester. The competitive battle lines are with the airports that also serve markets that the 75% originates from; mainly LPL, LBA, DSA and BHX. There are roughly 8m of the passengers a year using these airports that could use MAN and at least another 10m using MAN that would happily consider using one of others. The numbers at stake are huge and it requires an ongoing rear-guard action to protect what MAN has and to claw back passengers.

The second perspective, which I hear more from folks inside Gtr Manch but who are outside of the industry, is that it under-performs. Most comments in this regard focus on a (perceived) under performance in long haul services and as such, they believe the competitive battle lines are with London, and Heathrow in particular. Often they seem to conflate this issue with broader North vs. South issues and believe MAN should be managed in a way that showcases the fact there is life outside of London.

The management of the airport and the airport group and their external investors are firmly in the first camp. Passionate supporters of the 2nd view mis-interpret this as everything from incompetence to ambivalence, yet the reality is that the management are following the most logical commercial strategy for the challenges and risks they face. In pursuit of that, they are well regarded and well know in the industry - which is the core audience for business development, trade support and the other B2B marketing activity. B2C marketing, as with all airports, is not core simply because the general public don't react or engage with it that well. I know many airports that are trying to make social media work for them, with mixed success.

Shed-on-a-Pole

28th Jul 2014, 01:20

North West … Thankyou for your observations. Interesting food for thought there. Unfortunately, I cannot agree that we all slot neatly into one of the two categories you describe. Business schools like to apply neat labels to people like us but reality is far more complex.

Few contributors here are criticising the entirety of MAG's performance … quite the contrary. Opinion is broadly positive. MAN is back around the 21 million pax per annum mark and could finally overhaul the 2006/7 peak afew months from now. Prestigious new scheduled services have been secured. A balance appears to have been struck between encouraging growth in both the no-frills and legacy sectors. Infrastructure development continues apace, particularly that concerning ground access. Airport City is evolving. Rumours abound of major terminal redevelopment ahead. Of course, not everything is rosy (cargo throughput, engagement with the public) but there is much to applaud and I think most here give credit where it is due. Few on PPRuNe expect MAN to mirror LHR. The airport is performing creditably in many respects and is of huge benefit to the region.

What you do see on here is a desire for MAN to be the best that it can be. In certain areas MAG appears distracted (by STN?) and sometimes complacent. Marketing is a case in point … engagement with the public is a good thing but we see very little of it. Hard-won scheduled services (kudos for attracting them, BTW) have faded away because the public were largely unaware of their existence. Of course, scheduled services do not fail on PR alone (see FlyNas) but a bit of promotional assistance from MAG wouldn't go amiss. It is a cop-out to claim that the carriers alone are responsible for marketing. It is entirely in MAG's interests to ensure that the general public is well-informed concerning the airport's portfolio of operators and destinations. Strong public awareness is mutually beneficial to both MAG and its airline partners.

Let us briefly cite the example of Norwegian Air Shuttle. Here is a carrier which *could* potentially establish a MAN base at some stage. But our well-informed Norwegian friend LN-KGL advises us that the company is despondent over the lack of interest in its offerings from the Manchester end of the operation. Few Brits are booking with them. They even question whether nationalistic prejudices are to blame. Frequencies have been pared right back. Of course, I reckon we on PPRuNe can identify the true problem. I think it can be summarised as: "Fly with who? Never heard of them!" Now if MAG wishes to engage with NAX and help them get the message out to the general public there could be a rich reward at the end of the rainbow. Like a couple of based B738's and possibly a long-haul B787 as well! Is it OK to sit back in a comfy swivel-chair and pronounce that communicating with the customers is "not core" … it is the sole responsibility of the airline. We don't need MBA's to see where that attitude will lead.

The criticisms you do read on this thread are rarely of the blanket 'MAG is rubbish' variety. Quite the opposite … plaudits are generously forthcoming when deserved. But there can be no room for complacency. The airport is doing quite well … but is that enough? Are we all satisfied with 'OK' or would we rather see 'white-hot' [see what I did there?!!!] and 'absolutely on the ball' instead? The criticisms we make highlight very specific areas of the business and they are valid points which MAG would do well to take on board. Can anyone in MAG hold their head up over the botched Cathay Pacific press-launch? David Cameron's misinformed speech is an enduring high-profile embarrassment.

On the North v South issues I believe most here are quite realistic. MAN is not LHR, nor can we expect it to be. But LHR isn't entirely irrelevant to MAN's aspirations. It is still favoured by some bilaterals. The runway capacity situation there means that carriers will cling on to LHR slots for grim death, sometimes resulting in regional services being axed or not developed to their full potential in order to keep LHR flights force-fed. It is unhelpful to obsess over LHR, but it is also unwise to disregard its influence completely. Similarly unhelpful is the perception we see from some commentators that flying BA via LHR is laudable and patriotic, whilst using a direct EK/QR/EY MAN service which supports the NW economy is somehow disloyal. LHR does enjoy considerable political support based on BA's halo and the ingrained belief at Westminster that BA's interests and the national interest are synonymous. Our LHR concerns are legitimate but should not be overplayed. Perspective applies.

I believe that it would be unfair to label regular contributors here as "passionate supporters of the second view [in your post]". Nobody here is suggesting "incompetence and ambivalence" across the board. However, elements of those traits have been evident in very specific areas of MAG's business (which we have identified). MAG has done very well in many respects but it does have room to improve in others. I sincerely hope that MAG's attitude going forward will be one of striving for constant improvement and learning from incidents where the company has fallen short in the past. Because the alternative is to hide behind the excuse that the public are a bunch of clueless numpties who just don't understand what an awesome job we do … so we'll carry on regardless exactly as before. And keep repeating the same mistakes? We can just say we're 'following the most logical commercial strategy for the challenges and risks we face'. That sounds great! David Brent would be proud.

Manchester Airport is not a hotbed of incompetence and ambivalence … far from it. But MAG could do certain specific things much better. Eradicating smugness and complacency is healthy in any company. Strive to be the best. Mistakes have been made in very specific areas of MAG's business (notably engaging with the public). Is it wrong to aspire to see such shortcomings acknowledged and proactively addressed?

Every business makes mistakes. The great ones don't repeat them.

Skipness One Echo

28th Jul 2014, 07:25

Norwegian are big enough to have made a major impact at LGW, there is nothing to say they could not do as well if not better at MAN. I thought they would be the next Aer Lingus, the truth is they're that rarest of things. Something properly new in the market.

However they are over extending themselves and I think they understand that. People will book anyone offering the right frequency and value via any of the usual websites nowadays.

I appear to have a smiley attached to my post. I don't know why!

LN-KGL

28th Jul 2014, 08:53

Let's face it; Norwegian hates to compete against Ryanair and their vocal MOL. Competing against EasyJet is a completely different situation. Therefore the LGW expansion, and not at MAN. Both Norwegian and EasyJet have more than one single dimension, money, and they are the top two on the Skytrax best European LCC 2014 list - Norwegian is even given the title 3rd best LCC in the world after AirAsia and AirAsia X. A Norwegian MAN base you won't see the next years, and I'm sorry to say there are a number of stonger candidates than MAN on their list.

Shed-on-a-Pole

28th Jul 2014, 09:00

Skipness - You highlight a great point in mentioning that most travellers will happily book the best deal they find online regardless of air carrier. But this is an area where airport PR can really help. Returning to the example of Ryanair's axed flights linking MAN with Tours, I'm sure many of us know people who would greatly enjoy touring the chateaux of the Loire. Unfortunately, relatively few of those people would be inherently aware that Tours was the ideal base for visiting that district. Before people will search for flights to Tours the desire to travel there must first be established. Good airport PR is vital in this education process. Give people a good reason to visit Tours and they will actively consider doing so. Leave them clueless and that flight search will never happen. Clearly, the overseas property-owners' market was insufficient to sustain the route alone. Now that particular opportunity has been lost.

Extending this concept to the NAX situation … how many Mancs are sitting out there thinking: "I must check out leisure fares to Stavanger!" Very few, I suspect. However, if MAG were to put out afew teasers actually educating the public as to why a visit would be a great idea … well, that might just help. Generate travel features in the regional media, arrange occasional competitions etc. Be proactive. Use social media links. If efforts such as this can generate an additional ten passengers per flight (for example), that margin can be the difference between the success and failure of a new route. Proactive engagement with the public. It is worth going for. Naturally, the same principle applies to many other routes. The public generally knows why they wish to fly to Dublin or Malaga; for lesser-known destinations they sometimes require a little help to make up their minds! The airport operator can play a key role in this process.

Of course, regular contributors to PPRuNe are totally familiar with using the internet and wouldn't think twice about booking flights online. But we must remind ourselves that there is still a swathe of people who lack the expertise (or just the confidence) to arrange their own travel online. Many of these will (still) use travel agents. And airports should (still) prioritise keeping them well-informed about their route portfolios also. Generate trip recommendations and the bookings will follow.

I am not a travel agent, but I do help out a good number of friends and neighbours in booking flights online. Knowing these people well, I sometimes suggest destinations they might enjoy visiting, aside from their regular flights to visit family. One lady was quite surprised when I suggested an Icelandair offer to Reykjavik … she and her friend decided to book and absolutely loved the place. They'd never have considered Iceland without that initial prompt. Similarly, I suggested a trip to Keukenhof (tulip gardens) via Amsterdam to some gardening friends. Great success again. BUT … the desire to visit a place MUST be implanted first. The flight search can only follow as 'stage two'. So, in an age where the public are largely left to make their own travel decisions (without professional guidance), airports have a major opportunity to engage with their public and generate interest in their new destinations.

It's actually the classic 'chicken and egg' situation … no desire to visit (awareness deficit) = no search for corresponding flight deals. It has never been more important for airports and airlines to communicate with potential customers and implant that desire to visit those lesser-known leisure destinations, because most of those people no longer consult a travel professional. Yes, they can adeptly fill in the online booking form and select "pay now / confirm". But do they have the expertise to select the destination which would really 'wow' them? Many don't have that knowledge. That is both a challenge and an opportunity for those promoting leisure travel. Let's hope that MAG choose to proactively 'engage' their public rather than abdicating this "non-core" activity to the silent void.

LN-KGL

28th Jul 2014, 10:06

MAN could start doing something to the booking engine they have on their website. For a specific Friday in August I know both Norwegian and SAS fly to MAN, MAN-SVG does not give any result all. On the airlines websites, DY has one direct flight, SAS has 8 one stop options, BA has 7 one stop options, KLM/Air France has one stop 12 options and Luthansa has 6 one stop options.

Skipness One Echo

28th Jul 2014, 10:33

But this is an area where airport PR can really help.
I think this is overstating things greatly.
Joe Bloggs goes on line, has a favourtite site to look at best prices. A decision is made on "top box consideration" and a booking follows.
Premier customers will have a company travel policy or agent and are more savvy in terms of frequent flier programs. PR is incredibly difficult to quantify. Essentially a lot of the stats you see are not actual lies but as close to being useless as it gets. The moment someone starts talking about "likes" on Facebook then the immediate challenge is great, now monetise it please? You can't put a value on the fluffier stuff as it's not often possible to assign a cause / effect relationship to it. However there are many of my colleagues in the business who believe otherwise and great budgets are given over to Customer Service Indicators and how much people know or feel about a brand.

To which the obvious response is look at Ryanair who got incredibly far without caring. There are some good points made, but airport PR won't much of an impact, that's the reason it usually sits with the customer airline. It's their baby to run with for good reason.

Shed-on-a-Pole

28th Jul 2014, 11:45

Yes, Skipness … but remember that by the time Joe Bloggs goes online he is typically visiting his favourite site to check best prices to a specific destination which he has ALREADY decided upon. The trick is to reach the customer's consciousness BEFORE the booking stage such that the urge to visit destination XYZ is a consideration. As I mentioned earlier, 'educational' PR will not fill an aircraft. But in a business where the margins delineating success and failure are thin, an extra ten seats sold on a 180-seat aircraft can make the difference between failure and viability.

I take your point about premier customers having access to professional advice or a company travel policy. However, such people are in the minority in the leisure travel sector.

Suzeman

28th Jul 2014, 12:15

What a contrast between the wide ranging big picture painted by Shed and the blinkered spread-sheet approach of others....I know which I prefer.

Blending these two approaches is what makes a great company where lots of the touchy-feely things that it is difficult or impossible to put a monetary value on are integrated into the business ethos because they are perceived as bringing added value.

And who is travelling on a lot of these flights and routes we've been talking about? Answer in the main -Joe Public. So for example an article about a new destination in the MEN (sorry Bagso!) or other local press or on-line media may trigger people to go and look at that destination in more detail and this may result in a booking. The article may be as a result of taking the journo there, or a paid for advertorial - and this could be jointly funded between the airport and airline. Some of the route development pitches to airlines must surely cover this joint approach. As Shed has said, another 10 bums on seats as a result could mean the difference between a route's success or failure, but these things are difficult to quantify.

But for sure Airport "PR" is an important piece of the package of things which should be done to get the message out to the people making the booking decisions.

pwalhx

28th Jul 2014, 13:12

I am happy to do my bit, anything Manchester Airport put on twitter about new or current routes I am happy to re tweet on my company twitter account.

Diver

28th Jul 2014, 17:02

Holidaymakers face nightmare delays at Manchester Airport as queues snake into car park ... and council closes road to TRIM THE GRASS :ugh:.... where do they get these people from?

eye2eye5

28th Jul 2014, 17:45

Once is a blip, twice is a co incidence but three times is a trend. There are too many reports of queues at Manchester when the airport is compared with its peers. The function of management is to manage and that includes anticipation of events such as peak volumes. Focus purely on the bottom line and not on quality?

MANFOD

28th Jul 2014, 18:02

Queues and waiting times.

I don't know about queues for security at LGW but there have been serious complaints about waiting times for bags for flights arriving at night. One report mentioned 2.5 hours with the usual comment about lack of handling agent staff.
Even MAN in the past has managed only 90 minutes in reports I've seen.

That said, MAN's goal shouldn't be to avoid being the worst when it comes to security, or for that matter the airport experience generally, but to seek to be the best. And, as has been said many times, the longer the wait in security, the shorter time for passengers to spend money in the shops and restaurants. What I'm not sure about is to what extent the present building lay-out in the 3 terminals would easily allow for security areas to be extended, even if the airport were prepared to invest in additional equipment and staff.

Skipness One Echo

28th Jul 2014, 18:07

What a contrast between the wide ranging big picture painted by Shed and the blinkered spread-sheet approach of others....I know which I prefer.
If you mean me, and I hope you don't, that's unfair. Try running any business without a spreadsheet and see what happens. Typically empire building in a business takes hold and people put in bids for large marketing projects with lots of staff, talk about visibility and CSI, awareness, social media etc. None of which comes cheap, so at some point you have to show a causal link between your activity and an acceptable goal, incremental sales, uplift or other KPI. What happens a lot is no one really measures the activity properly and a lot of faffing about ensues with lots of people being terribly busy having little effect. This means you have lost control of your costs and you can't attribute a measurable benefit against each specific activity.
e.g. Great creative agency, no data analysis team to provide measurable insight :)

I disagree btw, I think most people have an idea where they want to go, top box consideration comes from decent prices and deals to one of several destinations they might want to go to. It's basic SEO coupled with a good offering.
Cathay will fill MAN-HKG easily if they sell it in such a way that is is attractive on site against their own LHR offering and the ME3. Again this sits with the airline, a load of twitterings from the social meeja intern at MAG won't do much to change that.

LNIDA

28th Jul 2014, 19:38

I'm glad you recall that you thought Norwegian would be the next Are Lingus at LGW but Manchester is another matter all together, Norwegian started its base at LGW with a strong base of flights to Scandinavia and has built frequency and routes on that, put simply there is nothing like the same demand for flights to Scandinavia from MAN, having said that the loads on the flights they do operate are good.

So to develop a base from there it would mean Med routes up against Monarch, Jet2, easyJet & Ryanair, i have no doubt they could do it but the pricing would be crap, so why bother? 2015 will likely be a year of consolidation for Norwegian, the net delivery position is small next year, so not much recruitment or expansion.

I'd love to be proved wrong but i don't see MAN as a priority, LGW is

Skipness One Echo

28th Jul 2014, 19:57

I have been surprised at how well DY are doing. I think market presence was zero on non Scandinavian routes but local visibility counts for less and price and reliability count for a lot more. I am genuinely astonished about how they deliver such a good product at a decent price. (My concern was their downward pressure on ts &cs but that's for another thread). Nowadays outwith the loyalty card market people shop around more for a good deal. Hence the USP of DY being quality at a decent price, a la Monarch.

Interesting point ref MAN, the gap might be p2p on the B787 as MAN does have some pretty underserved destinations unsuited to a year round legacy network carrier.

*now I have a fish. What am I doing and how do I make it go away?

Shed-on-a-Pole

28th Jul 2014, 20:24

With respect, Skipness, HKG is one of those high profile destinations where the customer base already knows what to expect. HKG enjoys high public awareness already. Plus that route is not dependent on the impulsive leisure traveler. MAN-HKG will attract business traffic, ethnic / VFR, and customers connecting onwards to points beyond in Asia and Australasia. As with my earlier examples of DUB and AGP, these are destinations with a critical mass of customers who know exactly why they wish to travel there regardless of promotional activity. All that is required is for the public to be informed that the destination is served. There is little need to explain what HKG has to offer and why it is worth a visit.

The scenarios I referred to relate to lesser-understood destinations. This is where the airport has a useful role to play. I cited the examples of Tours and Stavanger, but many other names could fill those slots. You say that people have an idea of where they want to go. Well, that is what they end up with AFTER having learned about the attractions of their preferred choice, either by educating themselves directly (brochures, magazine articles, internet research etc.), or through personal recommendation. Most do not book to visit some random city they know nothing about … some do, but they are very much a minority. The strategy I am putting forward relates to educating the public about these more peripheral destinations. The Blue Lagoon … lots of people will love it there … but only once they know what the heck it is! First must come the awareness of the destination, only then does the desire to visit it arise. Checking prices / deals is a later step in this process. This is where carefully targeted 'educational PR' can generate new demand and give a niche route the opportunity to succeed.

On your general theme, you appear to be arguing that because marketing results are difficult to quantify objectively the best strategy is therefore to do nothing whatsoever. I profoundly disagree with that. I'm certainly not advocating unrestrained runaway budgets … I do actually want to see MAG make money (!!!) … but targeted spend does have a positive role to play. It may be challenging to quantify the results of marketing spend, but it must be borne in mind that inaction bears costs of its own. Part of this takes the form of routes which may have worked out with a bit of effort expended in informing the public (eg. Tours). And then there is also a cost (difficult to measure again) in the form of relationships with airlines which may come to believe that the airport doesn't care whether their programme succeeds or fails. From what LN-KGL tells us, it sounds like NAX is in no hurry to extend its relationship with MAN. Do you think that receiving zero visible support in getting their message out to the marketplace might have influenced their thinking slightly? There are plenty of hungry airports out there which are prepared to go the extra mile if MAN can't be bothered. I hope that MAG will see the sense of pursuing the more constructive course rather than adopting the strategy you advocate which simply uses pure Brentspeak to justify permanent inaction.

EDIT: This posting was made in response to message #3619. The two additional NAX postings were yet to appear when this was composed. Regards.

Suzeman

28th Jul 2014, 20:37

If you mean me, and I hope you don't, that's unfair. Try running any business without a spreadsheet and see what happens. Typically empire building in a business takes hold and people put in bids for large marketing projects with lots of staff, talk about visibility and CSI, awareness, social media etc. None of which comes cheap, so at some point you have to show a causal link between your activity and an acceptable goal, incremental sales, uplift or other KPI. What happens a lot is no one really measures the activity properly and a lot of faffing about ensues with lots of people being terribly busy having little effect. This means you have lost control of your costs and you can't attribute a measurable benefit against each specific activity.

I wasn't suggesting for a minute that you could run a business without a spreadsheet. But there important features of any business which is hard to quantify and some companies are ruled by people who purely look at the hard figures and sometimes big opportunities are missed.

And you're right - measurement is very difficult but can be done but the measurement costs and is often one of the first things to be chopped. A good management team is able to navigate a way forward, understand these unquantifiable features and benefits to the business and proceed with certain appropriate measures accordingly.

And of course empire building is frequently found which does no good at all and this often produces "silo management" where co-ordination and the big picture is lost.

Anyway on to more practical things - grass cutting. Here's an extract from the Evening News...

Manchester council insisted that grass-cutting was only one of the tasks that took place and that other agencies had been consulted.

A spokesman said: “These are essential works, which have taken place over a few weekends, to ensure the area is safe.

“They includes inspecting and replacing necessary signage and lighting and are not limited to clearing overgrown vegetation.

“These works have been planned with the airport management group and working closely with the Highways Agency. My emphasis.

Seems to me that there was no understanding of the impact here. End result - the airport gets more bad publicity. Oh dear.

Full story here
Manchester Airport: Council closed part of M56 to Manchester Airport on busiest weekend of year so far... to cut the grass - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-council-closed-part-7517068)

Skipness One Echo

28th Jul 2014, 20:39

you appear to be arguing that because marketing results are difficult to quantify objectively the best strategy is therefore to do nothing whatsoever.
No one is going to spend money without being able to quantify a result. That's how business works except in parts of the Public Sector where money is no object. Bagso is very fond of saying "they", like a big generic blob of otherness. Whose budget is that going to come out of? For the airport to market niche destinations, they need some bang back for their buck. By making the usual deal of introductory landing fees and charges, the airport is already assisting with costs, there's no harm in advertising and tweeting of course. What you will find Shed is that no one is going to put serious money that way without some comeback. It's not worth it from a commercial standpoint. The airport is there to make money and a return for shareholders, any benefit to the wider region is off the back of that.
There's been a lot of words on this subject, but few relevant numbers I think.
95%+ of the time, it's all about the spreadsheets. It really, really is, as one bad year can kill almost any commercial airline.

But there important features of any business which is hard to quantify and some companies are ruled by people who purely look at the hard figures and sometimes big opportunities are missed.

And you're right - measurement is very difficult but can be done but the measurement costs and is often one of the first things to be chopped. A good management team is able to navigate a way forward, understand these unquantifiable features and benefits to the business and proceed with certain appropriate measures accordingly. Interesting. What are you getting at? A good example would help? Not public subsidy junky SRB please :) that ship sailed in the 90s....

Bagso

28th Jul 2014, 21:29

First class debate..

I'm clearly missing something because to me what Shed /Suzeman is saying makes absolute common sense.

Suzeman

28th Jul 2014, 22:03

Quote:
But there important features of any business which is hard to quantify and some companies are ruled by people who purely look at the hard figures and sometimes big opportunities are missed.

And you're right - measurement is very difficult but can be done but the measurement costs and is often one of the first things to be chopped. A good management team is able to navigate a way forward, understand these unquantifiable features and benefits to the business and proceed with certain appropriate measures accordingly.

Interesting. What are you getting at? A good example would help? Not public subsidy junky SRB please that ship sailed in the 90s....

Political lobbying both at a local level, nationally and internationally once unlocked a lot of doors which allowed airlines to operate where barriers had once existed to Manchester access and smoothed the way to getting the second runway built. A lot of time and energy and cost was spent on this with no guaranteed payback - it was a business risk - but in the end it did pay off. You have a raft of services that are well established and some decent infrastructure. But that was then...Now

95%+ of the time, it's all about the spreadsheets. It really, really is, as one bad year can kill almost any commercial airline.

I'm sure you are right. So a little bit of marketing assistance from the Airport to any airline may make a difference ....And there's far more to it than just introductory offers on fees and charges, but of course no guarantee of success, so we'll not do it as the bean - counters will get upset. We hear that the Chinese have been trying to unlock the bilateral - no guarantee of success, so the airport won't put time and effort into it. Hope that's not the case...

Sad but true that many of the things were done in the past don't fit into today's business models, but there we are.

Now back to access. It looks like next weekend could be even worse than this one as the M56 is closed for 55 hours between Junctions 5 and 6 whilst they remove a bridge.

Drivers reminded of M56 weekend closure at Manchester Airport junction - News - Highways Agency (http://www.highways.gov.uk/news/press-releases/drivers-reminded-of-m56-weekend-closure-at-manchester-airport-junction/)

Airport are already tweeting this, and hopefully there is an operational plan in place -along with extra staff - to help smooth out problems. Oh hang on - how much will these staff cost?.....

Glad to be nowhere the airport this weekend - hope it all goes well.

j636

29th Jul 2014, 01:13

Anybody know how Moscow is doing for EZY, going by prices yield must be very soft as flights to Dublin, London and Amsterdam are way above Moscow fares in November....

kieb92

29th Jul 2014, 05:25

Double Germania flights today or MAN Airport mistake?

T2 ST3594 06:50 Heraklion Go to gate
T2 ST3594 08:00 Heraklion Scheduled 08:00
T2 ST3616 17:00 Heraklion Scheduled 17:00
T2 ST3616 18:10 Heraklion Scheduled 18:10

Suzeman

29th Jul 2014, 08:43

As the flight numbers are duplicated, I would assume that each flight has 2 planned slots, presumably one put in the system originally and then revised. Somebody forgot to cancel the old one I guess

kieb92

29th Jul 2014, 09:56

However different actual departure times?

T2 ST3594 06:50 Heraklion Departed 08:35
T2 ST3594 08:00 Heraklion Departed 08:51

LNIDA

29th Jul 2014, 10:14

It is difficult to say what factor(s) can be credited with NAS success at LGW, price obviously is used to get attention, but i think on routes such as CPH/ARN/OSL/HEL frequency is a major factor, a lot of the traffic inbound is attracted by the appeal of London and it's low prices compared with the Nordic countries. That not going to be case with Manchester whatever attractions it has to offer

Load factor on the new US routes is very high as one would expect at this time of year and a fair chunk of transfer passengers, as to whether they are making any money is another question.

I think long haul from MAN with Norwegian will have to await the 738MAX

STATSMAN

29th Jul 2014, 13:10

Appeal of the north west is football on all NAS flights inbound on Friday/Saturday and outbound on Monday. Outbound on Friday/Saturday and inbound on Monday is the problem. Good time for duty free on the outbound after the weekend.

pwalhx

29th Jul 2014, 14:56

Noticed on Twitter that Westjet posted - We will be adding four Boeing 767-300ERW aircraft to our fleet next year. I responded asking if they had plans to operate to Manchester to which they replied - We'll see what happens as we expand overseas!

Centre cities

29th Jul 2014, 15:22

That is because emails are answered by Customer Service Staff who do not have a clue what is happening operational and they have a KPI to empty their inbox with in a certain time.

Centre cities

LAX_LHR

29th Jul 2014, 15:28

That is because emails are answered by Customer Service Staff who do not have a clue what is happening operational and they have a KPI to empty their inbox with in a certain time

While its true the customer service team will not give away sensitive info, the poster did not email them, they used social media, to which they are not obligated to reply to.

BHX5DME

29th Jul 2014, 15:34

I would hope Westjet considers BHX as we have ONE flight a week to Canada !

But knowing our luck it will be Manchester !!

j636

29th Jul 2014, 15:58

The tweet stated that they will be flying in the US for 2015 and eventually used overseas so 2016 at earliest.

pwalhx

29th Jul 2014, 16:13

I merely mentioned this as there had been reports before of WestJet coming to Manchester.

LAX is correct they had no need to respond and they did so very quickly. In the thread I responded to it clearly stated that they would be used on flights overseas.

LAX_LHR

29th Jul 2014, 16:53

When Westjet launched Dublin, they did go on record to say Manchester, London (didn't state specific airport) and Edinburgh would be their initial UK routes.

kgoodall

29th Jul 2014, 17:19

I really hope they do pick Manchester or Birmingham. I'm originally from the Midlands but now live in Ottawa and use Westjet on a regular basis for work. They have a very good product, sort of halfway between a loco and legacy airline. Given their network over here with the regional, national and international connections it could open up a lot of possibilities.

GaelForce

29th Jul 2014, 18:06

Yes, likely be MAN. However, they, WestJet, have never been shy about using close-by smaller airports as a starter. They did it with Hamilton (YHM) Ontario before decamping for YYZ. They now have quite a presence at YYZ. So, even if they start with BHX/EMA or LPL it would probably just until they tested the water.

WestJet have also announced that they are to start offering an up-market configuration on some routes. This to compete with Air Canada for premium customers. Also, they, WestJet have announced a Q2 $52 million profit. Everything looking rosy for them at present however, "big bad red" (Air Canada) is still lurking and has very deep pockets and is not adverse to using them to protect it's interest.

justplanecrazy84

29th Jul 2014, 18:08

If Westjet do start at MAN could it benefit BHX regarding Transat?

OltonPete

29th Jul 2014, 20:00

With summer 15 released for MAN, BHX, LTN and LGW can anyone give me any insight to Monarch's Manchester base and how does this release stack up against previous first releases?

The Luton and BHX schedule seems very stream-lined with the exception on the night flights especially Ibiza with BHX an aircraft down from this summer, at present.

Manchester's schedule seems as bad as BHX when comparing August 14 to August 15 although with Manchester having more IT flights it is difficult to judge what is happening overall especially in light of the recent press releases.

Venice is up on to 4 a week from 3.

However I estimate around 28 fewer weekly flights with 2014 in brackets

ALlicante 7 (14)
Antayla 2 (4)
Dalaman 10 (12)
Dubrovnik 0 (4)
Faro 9 (10)
Ibiza 0 (5)
Arrecife 6 (7)
Larnaca 5 (6)
Palma 11 (14)
Malaga 9 (12)

Last summer BHX first release clearly had nine based with some gaps and flights were added later.

I would imagine Manchester would have been the same and we can probably say Ibiza will be added later plus the July and August night flights but even that said is it still likely be down or is it really too early?

East Mids and Leeds still to be released.

Pete

Bagso

30th Jul 2014, 18:22

No one is going to spend money without being able to quantify a result. That's how business works except in parts of the Public Sector where money is no object. Bagso is very fond of saying "they", like a big generic blob of otherness. Whose budget is that going to come out of? For the airport to market niche destinations, they need some bang back for their buck. By making the usual deal of introductory landing fees and charges, the airport is already assisting with costs, there's no harm in advertising and tweeting of course. What you will find Shed is that no one is going to put serious money that way without some comeback. It's not worth it from a commercial standpoint.

Who is talking about spending money Skippy ?
Who suggested money is no object ?
Whose budget is that coming from ?

All terms designed to suggest that a few of us are suggesting we throw heaps of money at marketing , at what point did anybody actually suggest that ?

How about this modest approach at minimal cost ?

Generating discussion of the service in the media THREE MONTHS before it starts and in the lead up, NOT on the day of launch, you potentially end up with months of lag before a more thorough take up ? Cost nothing !

In terms of Jeddah surely it wasn't beyond the wit of man to suggest the mass market Pakistani community in Northern England (and others) who visit The Holy Cities, would be an ideal target audience.

Why therefore could the airport have not taken a few initiatives that would benefit both airlines and by way of example invited faith leaders, The Rushholm set and other prominent members of this community across The North to a pre-launch to "get the message out". cost, fairly modest.... really.

Why could they not have prepared a press release to media outlets in Manchester , Oldham, Bradford, Blackburn etc extolling the virtues AND benefits of traveling DIRECT from Manchester on what "would have been" an almost daily service to Jeddah, Mecca and beyond. Cost, time.

Financials are normally released every quarter to business outlets within BBC, Newspapers etc EVERY other organisation use these opportunities to promote their goods, could/can Manchester have not done likewise with this route and other services !

Cost, again nil !

Social Media - Twitter/Facebook other than flogging parking, omelettes and occasional forays with Hong Kong , I don't recall seeing any mention of Eg Jeddah

Again who is monitoring output versus traffic levels, did nobody think we could do with factoring some publicity dare I say impetus into the "marketing plan!
Cost, nil !

Email, see above Cost again Peanuts !

Airports OWN website, oh Lord, some simple design changes that actually promote OUR OWN DIRECT SERVICES over connections, if this isn't the biggest own goal, I really do know what is ! Cost of upgrade relatively minor, cost of not doing it, potential leakage to other airports !

So you see Skippy it isn't down to a specific dept throwing oodles of cash at marketing , its more a case of using a bit of nous and being a bit
subtle to convey a message at little cost.

You suggest landing discounts are a marketing subsidy, maybe they are but there is little point one dept actually taking a hit on introductory fees if there is little focus elsewhere and no bugger knows the route exists.... and as a consequence the service then only lasts three months !

Who is the actual Aviation Analyst here :ok:

Manchester IS most definitely going in the right direction, we should congratulate those specifically involved in recent route expansion but hopefully "somebody" is mindful of complacency in other areas !

Skipness One Echo

30th Jul 2014, 18:54

Bagso you talk a good game but you genuinely have no idea how this works in the real world. Good luck with the soap box.
If it was as easy and straightforward as you suggest, it would have been done years ago, be honest.

Bagso

30th Jul 2014, 21:59

Well I have put my template forward, I genuinely have absolutely no idea if its right, it might have fallen on its back side.

But you know what have a go...

AND by all means you do likewise !

You are in the box seat, whats your view ?

You have the industry experience !

I do not !

I might be talking a good game to one .....full of hot air to others !

To be frank im not that bothered !

but to some it might just chime as common sense ?

BUT rather than bat away with insincere platitudes please provide us with your factual view

What does an airport do to launch a route.
How best do they connect with potential passengers ?

Just tell us ?

Mr A Tis

30th Jul 2014, 23:02

If Skipness 1E is 100% correct, then it's a failed philosophy.
You cannot always measure what someone does, although this is the current trend. But over the decades these "ideas" have come and gone. You can measure the end results...but it's not always practicle to measure everything that moves / breathes.

I don't know who does their Twitter & Facebook messages, but I don't think they've grasped it.

Facebook message from MA today read re security queues....."only take onto the flight items you will need during the flight. You do not have to place hair straightners, large cameras etc in hand luggage, ..." What ???
So that large expensive camera will be absolutely oki doki being stacked on a trolley, dropped on the apron & thrown into a hold? And what about electrical items like cameras etc that have lithium batteries in them ? They should not be in the hold at all.

I digress slightly, but MA need to get a grip on social media or leave it well alone. So, Bagso- given the CX fiasco they are probably best keeping away.

All names taken

31st Jul 2014, 02:37

I've vaguely followed this rather esoteric debate with mild (or is that too strong a word) interest although some of the posts have been, with apologies to Twain, written by those who don't have time to write something shorter and would themselves fail to register a single Twitter 'tweet' as a result.

Anyway.....criticism of the Facebook message today (by Mr A Tis) is wide of the mark. I have to say that this is highly practical advice, given the season, aimed at ensuring that security queues don't get out of hand. Anyone that travels regularly (which I'm not convinced many commentators here do) would get that - based on what you see at security most days.

Shed-on-a-Pole

31st Jul 2014, 06:42

Two points there. Many pax are not putting ANY luggage in the hold because several airlines are charging around GBP25.00 per bag (to Europe) to do so … maybe it is this which is slowing down the security queue? And secondly, I'm completely with Mr A Tis re the camera advice … my trusty Nikon stays with me!

Just one further aside. I received a new marketing e.mail from MAG yeterday … it included four destination guides. A step in the right direction. Hallelujah!

By the way, Mr A Tis is the most regular traveller I know. He's never at home!

Mr A Tis

31st Jul 2014, 07:40

Yup, I've seen more bags drop off luggage carts & mistreated than I care to mention. To think people pay extra for that priviledge.
Once again - Shed is spot on. It's LCC high baggage fees that feed the massive hand baggage - security queues.

All names taken...please note:

Lifted from Air Canada baggage policy : The following are permitted in carry-on baggage only*:

Consumer electronic devices containing accepted lithium metal cells or batteries

Most airlines advise silmilar. From a safety point of view, MA should mention this. Not encourage the hold to be stacked with these battery operated electronics.

From the CAA website :
Portable electronic devices
containing lithium batteries
such as lap top computers and mp3
players. Such devices should be carried in
hand baggage; spare batteries MUST be
protected against short circuit and carried
in hand baggage

So the MA advice is wrong IMHO.

MClayton

31st Jul 2014, 07:57

As Virgin Atlantic get there 787-9's in the next few months would they be likely to get the cabin crew use to them on routes to Manchester and Edinburgh etc as they do not have short haul destinations like BA when they flew into Stockholm ( not sure if I am correct about the destination there )

MANFOD

31st Jul 2014, 08:57

OltonPete. and your post 3643.

Thanks for the work you did on Monarch's schedules for s2015 loaded for MAN & BHX. Have you by any chance an indication of the position for LTN & LGW, which might give a clearer picture as to whether cut-backs at this stage are across the board or at selective airports?

It should be said that this also reflects the situation with Jet2 at MAN with the schedules loaded so far showing frequency reductions on Palma, Faro and Murcia of several flights weekly, and small reductions on the likes of Budapest, Barcelona, Pisa and Nice. Reaction has included the optimistic view that this is what normally happens when schedules are first loaded and more flights will follow, and a more cautious view suggesting that Jet2 may simply wait to see how bookings develop before deciding whether to restore frequencies.

There are a number of apparent contradictions between noises from some airlines on the one hand and passenger figures so far reported for this summer. For example:

Some tour operators and airlines have referred to a 'soft' market for this summer, capacity issues, bookings below expectations, having to discount prices, lower yields etc. On the other hand, haven't EZY and RYR posted better results than expected for the latest quarter?

ACL's Start of Season Report for MAN indicated that Seats allocated for S2014 were 3.8% higher than at the start of s2013 and 5.2% higher than the end of s2013. Terminal pax at MAN increased by over 11% in April (inflated due to late Easter), 7.5% in May and 5.8% in June, which, assuming the ACL figures were up to date and correct, suggests that LFs overall have so far increased. However, the timing of when flights start and finish for the season may distort the figures. And of course within the mix, some airlines and destinations will have seen better LFs while others will not.

For British holiday markets going abroad, the pound is relatively strong against the Euro and is higher against the dollar which you might expect to give a boost to bookings. The price of oil has been fairly stable for some time which should help operators depending on their forward buying policy.

Given also the slowly improving economy, it is perhaps a little surprising that the mood in the industry seems somewhat subdued.

The hope of course is that Monarch and Jet2 will indeed increase their program in due course. Other than some more long haul flights, I'm not sure what the charter and schedule position is like for TCX, or for that matter TOM. Meanwhile, we wait to see what Easyjet and Ryanair have in store for us at MAN for next summer. There's certainly no shortage of competition on some routes!

GavinC

31st Jul 2014, 10:01

Testing of the MetroLink line to MAN has now started.

viscount702

31st Jul 2014, 10:22

TCX

Flights by TCX for S15 are down on this year based on the currently available schedule. PMI and some other destinations show reductions. However I don't think the full schedule has yet been released well I hope not.

We are aware of the possible LAX flight on top of MIA and JFK already announced.There are some other European destinations showing which are new but no schedule as yet. What concerns me most is the lack of UVF and BGI for S15 at present which are supposed to be year round and are operating this summer.

OltonPete

31st Jul 2014, 11:55

MANFOD

Thank you for your reply.

I have now compared BHX, MAN, LTN and LGW August 14 to August 15 only and roughly and in weekly terms (schedule)

BHX 22 flights fewer
MAN 25 + flights fewer
LGW 21 flights fewer
LTN 1 extra

I think there is little doubt the BHX, MAN & LGW peak season night flights will be released later and this will probably include Ibiza as they are mainly at night.

However taking that into account it would seem to be one less aircraft at each base at present without considering the IT schedule.

The other noticeable aspect is that Leeds and East Mids are still not released and could there be changes at these two bases?

Jethro's still shows 2 x new A321's due 2015 and of course the 757's leaving this winter.

I guess more to come.

Pete

Bagso

31st Jul 2014, 14:24

Is Dublin Airport eating Heathrow?s lunch? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11000457/Is-Dublin-Airport-eating-Heathrows-lunch.html#)

Is Dublin eating Heathrow's lunch !

Is it eating Manchester's as well ?

GrahamK

31st Jul 2014, 19:20

AA suspending MAN-ORD between Jan 2015 and the end of March 2015

MKY661

31st Jul 2014, 19:27

we can probably say Ibiza will be added later

It's not bookable from all bases, so I think it Probably will :)

spannersatcx

31st Jul 2014, 19:31

LAX_LHR

31st Jul 2014, 19:34

AA suspending MAN-ORD between Jan 2015 and the end of March 2015

Its a backtrack on original plans to use B767 during the winter, and a huge let down considering they were very seriously looking at a 4 weekly Miami for this winter.

Seems the MAN-USA market is well down this winter, but, with several Euro cuts, at least its not indicative the just the MAN market, and at least its only Jan-Mar. DUB looses all AA service (not including US to PHL) for the whole winter with JFK being cut too.

eggc

31st Jul 2014, 19:44

highly unlikely, VS are keeping the 744's until 2020, so expect to see them at LGW and MAN for a long time.

Think flying them on LHR - MAN/EDI for crew training was meant, rather than MAN-MCO.

j636

31st Jul 2014, 19:47

Bagso

31st Jul 2014, 20:47

M56

The Bridge Over the River ...sigh

Notwithstanding "somebody" has waited until the 1st week of August to decide on "blowing the bridge" , a decision which apparently has gone unchallenged by the suits at MAN ! !

Did the Christian calender not include the months of November or February ?

It seems totally incomprehensible (to me at least) that there has been little warning of the impending doom/chaos that is about to unfold !

Highways Agency seem more concerned about the village Lane into Titty Hill, Sussex, UK ! Not a word on their site although to be fair we are not London and despite handling 25m pax a year I actually doubt anybody actually bothered to pick up the phone to tell them. This would have at least ensured it made 5 Live etc !

At least thank God the M56 only leads to a small "regional airport in the North"

Perish the thought this would happen in August if it was Gatwick or Heathrow !

Me Bitter ? never !

LAX_LHR

31st Jul 2014, 21:04

It seems totally incomprehensible (to me at least) that there has been little warning of the impending doom/chaos that is about to unfold !

Why has it come as a surprise to people, its been advertised for at least 3 months.

Bagso

31st Jul 2014, 21:16

Its not a suprise!

Only the timing of the event.

I suspect your average family from Stoke off for their two weeks in Ibiza Sat AM have NOT been monitoring the media......but I may be wrong, i usually am !

BUT pretty sure this would have been mentioned on national news if it were London !

I'm sure as you imply it will all go super smoothly after all closing the main arterial road from The South and West should make little difference to the main day to day traffic flows.

MClayton

31st Jul 2014, 23:10

Yes eggc I meant that, didn't exactly word it correctly

BDLBOS

1st Aug 2014, 05:03

Bagso, why do you always write a whole life history when your point can be made simply in one line? Still waiting for my crayons too!!

hammerb32

1st Aug 2014, 06:52

Bagso has a very good point, this is the first I've heard of it, it is the main/only route from the south to the airport, a huge amount of MANs catchment area. I am almost worried to ask but have MAN been talking about in on twitter etc?

MANFOD

1st Aug 2014, 07:25

After the cut-backs by UA & AA for part of the winter, I notice that CLT is not bookable on the US Air web site for dates tried in May & June next year. (PHL is)
Do we read anything into this, or are they still deciding whether to resume the route and if so when? I had a feeling it was suggested the route would restart earlier and may be year round but I could be wrong.

As LAX LHR mentions, ORD is showing as a B757 this winter until the suspension, but it's also a 757 when the service restarts although I guess that could change.

eggc

1st Aug 2014, 07:49

The closure is all over local media, Radio and Newspapers. Its been planned and know for months. Personally I think MAN has done a good a job as possible to get this out there.

If your coming from the Manchester direction you can actually get to the airport without diversion, its only the other direction where you have to come off one junction early, so the diversion is short and with it being Sat and Sun it should be OK missing rush hours. Fuss about nothing IMO.

As for Twitter, think they have passed on banging that drum...

Manchester Airport @manairport · 22h Please remember as of tomorrow evening there will be a full closure of the M56 Jct 6-5 until Monday morning: http://ow.ly/zMG6M

Manchester Airport @manairport · Jul 28 This weekend the Highways Agency is carrying out essential works on & around the main routes into Manchester Airport http://ow.ly/zEQK1

Retweeted by Manchester Airport
Highways Agency @HAnews_nwest · Jul 28
Man Airport affected by motorway closure this weekend. Eastbound M56 drivers use J.6 at Hale instead. Tell friends! http://ow.ly/zEoyK

Retweeted by Manchester Airport
GMP Mcr Airport @GMPMcrAirport · Jul 27
Travelling to @manairport next weekend? There is full weekend closure of the M56 between J5 & J6 scheduled for 1st - 4th August. PC Fi Jay

It is also plastered all over the home page of the website, so if people don't know about it can't say MAN hasn't tried !

ATNotts

1st Aug 2014, 07:54

Seems the MAN-USA market is well down this winter, but, with several Euro cuts, at least its not indicative the just the MAN market, and at least its only Jan-Mar. DUB looses all AA service (not including US to PHL) for the whole winter with JFK being cut too.

Looking as an "outsider" it seams to me that certainly for winter, MAN has reached it's level as regards capacity to major US hubs (not pure leisure destinations) and capacity may be being trimmed down to more economic levels which the carriers hope will raise yields.

The shear amount of capacity eastwards via the gulf may also result somewhere down the line in some retrenchment, although as the requirement for the ME3 to make profits (given their ownerships) is probably less than for US carriers.

Either way, the apparent weakness doesn't bode so well for other airports aspiring for additional / new links to the US of A.

Bagso

1st Aug 2014, 08:59

........my ire was actually more directed at the Highways Agency they in turn actually supply content and feed to the BBC travel units both at a national and regional level.

They ALSO supply feed to airlines .

It may well have been mentioned hopefully by now and will continue to be so over the week end...

but if you have a look at their home page whilst their are references to closures over the week end on A38, A1, M27 et al there is absolutely bugger all
(as at 10am Friday) about the main junction outside the 3rd largest airport in the UK on one of the busiest week ends of the year !

Yes granted it is on the Airport home page AND if you alight on the page when the large banner appears at the top that is great, BUT stunningly it appears as part of three rolling adverts combined with "summer sun" and the "escape lounge", given the attention span of your average joe that is 1 in 3 chance that it will be missed !

Users alight on a page and target the link they need they will not wait around for a banner to roll round every 20 seconds !

It should be a fixed message sorry that is standard stuff !

There is a permanent line reference to the work but it is barely visible.

Hopefully the airlines/tour operators have advised customers.

2 years back I was warned about congestion IN LONDON around the Olympics "ON THE M56 MATRIX, again controlled by the H.A.
this week those same signs suggested " Take a break at next services", perhaps M56 Full closure 1/8 - 4/8 was more appropriate

AND as I said my main point was timing, I do appreciate it has to be done but undertaking the work on just about the worst week end of the year seems crazy.

Even the airport spokesman in today's MEN has suggested the airport is at its "Summer peak".... there were 4 mile tail backs last week end and the mway was not fully closed !

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aberdeen, Glasgow and Southampton are going up for sale, no doubt an opportunity for MAG !

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re AA.... will the market still be there when they comeback ?

Maybe somebody s/b on phone to EK Re

Dubai - Manchester - Chicago
Or
Dubai - Manchester - CLT

...there is clearly a market !

FlyNas, AA, USAir....... maybe a few of us were right on the mood music !

chinapattern

1st Aug 2014, 09:01

After the cut-backs by UA & AA for part of the winter, I notice that CLT is not bookable on the US Air web site for dates tried in May & June next year.

Can see US/AA dropping MAN-CLT in favour of the new LHR-CLT route they are planning with the slots acquired from Cyprus Airways.

GavinC

1st Aug 2014, 09:06

Closures are often deliberately timed to be at the weekend and in the summer as traffic flows are lower due to it not being a working day and more people are away in the summer.

Ironic I know.....

Based on the same principle, you'll see several day closures of road and rail at both Christmas and Easter.

BasilBush

1st Aug 2014, 09:11

I disagree with Atnotts on this. CAA stats show substantial unfulfilled demand to the US from/to MAN's catchment. New York alone has 250,000 pax from the region who travel via LHR or other indirect routings. There are a lot of other destinations where MAN is not currently meeting the demand, and which could be served by better frequencies on our existing US gateway hubs.

What disappoints me about MAN is that US routes don't seem to develop much once they are started. After 25 years (or whatever), ORD is still only served once daily at best. Schedule depth - or lack of it - is perhaps more of an issue at MAN rather than the range of destinations. I travel to/from ORD quite often and frankly a once daily departure back to MAN at 18.00 isn't much use if you have an afternoon meeting in the city. As a result the route loses a lot of potential high yield J class traffic, with such pax having to route via LHR on a 21.00 flight or whatever. This might explain why I've rarely seen the J cabin on a 767 more than half full, despite AA's fondness for doling out free upgrades (SWUs) to its top tier frequent fliers.

My own view is that there is often too great a focus (including on this forum) on new destinations, when perhaps MAN would capture a better share of long haul traffic - especially higher yielding traffic - by improved frequency on existing routes, especially those to US hubs.

Bagso

1st Aug 2014, 10:09

Quite right Basil

UK's Manchester airport to start flights to Hong Kong | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/09/airport-manchester-hongkong-idUSL6N0N13LZ20140409)

Great news that MAN are chasing new routes but surely there should be meetings going on as we speak re news from last 48hours.

LAX_LHR

1st Aug 2014, 11:03

Regarding AA MAN-ORD,

The short suspension is due to a large scale maintence and paint project which is going on over winter.
This combined with the B757 starting to get pulled away from TATL ops means some routes have to be trimmed back.

This is a 1 winter programme only (so no suspension planned next winter), and MAN is relatively strong for AA hence the Jan-Mar suspension, which are the very low travel months, rather than full winter like DUB/DUS etc are seeing.

Skipness One Echo

1st Aug 2014, 11:15

This is a 1 winter programme only (so no suspension planned next winter), and MAN is relatively strong for AA hence the Jan-Mar suspension, which are the very low travel months, rather than full winter like DUB/DUS etc are seeing.
Unless LAX-LHR works for American Airlines the brutal truth is that we can have no idea what their intentions are for next winter. The painting is almost complete, unlike the winglet installation, the program in question is a cabin refresh. I'd be careful not to minismise the damage here as AA have dropped the ball here too often before. B757s fuel stopping in winter etc. What we'd be looking to see in my view is something like an A330-200 on Chicago and AA/US consolidating slightly to get what was a very strong route back up to speed. When BMI launched ORD, AA took a huge hit as their offering to market wasn't up to scratch. Maybe I'm biased but this route's been in place most of my life and I sometimes get the feeling they don't really know what they want to do with it. This is also an opportuity to test whether business traffic will come back after a seasonal drop in service and see if they can hold onto their frequent fliers via another routing, ideally over PHL or JFK direct from MAN.

j636

1st Aug 2014, 11:18

Lax

Cut the crap here, maintenance or not if MAN was profitable it wouldn't be cut over that period. As for next year AA do not know what is happening never mind you.

The key difference between MAN and DUB/DUS is at these airports there is intense competition between carriers on routes which are being cut something which is not seen at MAN.

BTW comparing with DUB, last year was the first winter season in a while AA had a presence as JFK was resumed the previous summer and it was a very low freq.

Don't dress it up, time for a reality check!

Ian Brooks

1st Aug 2014, 11:26

Don`t think the A330 fleet is transferable from US Airlines points so will not be seen on AA sectors for a while from what I`m told, same problem
problem Delta/Northwest had as mixed fleets don`t work to well.
The 757s and some of the 763 are getting quite long in the tooth now, the 757 are getting a lot of flack on the ORD
and until the replacements come through it`s not going to be easy and as we know LHR is always going to win over anywhere else in Europe for
AA

Ian

LAX_LHR

1st Aug 2014, 11:55

Oh dear, seem to have ruffled a few feathers from such a simple comment.

I think some people need to take a chill pill, this thread is for a passing hobby, stop taking it so seriously :ok:

OltonPete

1st Aug 2014, 12:47

Now I have absolutely no access to yields and I didn't monitor the individual websites during the period re fares but here are the CAA stats for passenger figures and number of rotations. I have used various websites for seating plans. I realise that not all flights were due to operate daily but Atlanta has been upgraded this coming winter and based on these figures they obviously know a lot we don't.

Atlanta

January....8183 pax...average 191 pax...load factor...84%....only 44 flights - max 62
February...6843 pax...average 180 pax.................80%....only 38 flights - max 56
March......8506 pax...average 193 pax.................86%....only 44 flights - max 62

Chicago

January....6569 pax...average 126 pax...load factor...72%....only 52 flights - max 62
February...4484 pax...average 102 pax.................58%....only 44 flights - max 56
March......7672 pax...average 132 pax.................75%....only 58 flights - max 62

New York - JFK

January....7927 pax...average 142 pax...load factor...80%....only 56 flights - max 62
February...7567 pax...average 146 pax.................83%....only 52 flights - max 56
March......9439 pax...average 152 pax.................87%.........62 flights - max 62

New York - Newark

January....9307 pax...average 150 pax...load factor...89%.........62 flights - max 62
February...8513 pax...average 152 pax.................90%.........56 flights - max 56
March......9493 pax...average 153 pax.................91%.........62 flights - max 62

Philadelphia

January...11140 pax...average 180 pax...load factor...71%.........62 flights - max 62
February...9537 pax...average 170 pax.................68%.........56 flights - max 56
March.....11910 pax...average 192 pax.................76%.........62 flights - max 62

Washington

January....4725 pax...average 113 pax...load factor...67%....only 42 flights
February...3028 pax...average 101 pax.................60%....only 30 flights
March......6886 pax...average 128 pax.................75%....only 54 flights

All that I would say is that in this day and age with an ageing aircraft on the the ORD and IAD are these figures are going to be acceptable? It is also worth noting the PHL figures are dipping as well.

MANFOD

Here are the CAA June 2014 figures with the new Charlotte operating - hardly a quiet month for Air Travel and they are moderate to say the least.

Atlanta...... 11498 down 18% from 14058
Chicago......11148 flat
JFK............ 9440 down 3% from 9778
Newark....... 8878 down 5% from 9374
PHL.......... 11964 down 17% from 14386 - Charlotte was 7664 pax
Washington. 8381 down 9% from 9223.

Now BHX, EDI & GLA Newark were all down as was most of the Heathrow US flights so something more widespread was happening here but it seems that extra Charlotte really put a spanner in the works.

Pete

Logohu

1st Aug 2014, 13:02

Ref AA/UA seasonal reductions. Jan-Mar is low season so if essential maintenance is really the reason then it's probably the best time for them to cutback on services and get it done. Let's face it, they have to somehow fill all those empty Y-class seats out of LHR in the low season as well. They can't reduce frequencies there as they will be eaten alive by BA, not to mention risk losing those precious slots. So the regions are a much easier cut for them, unpleasant as that may be for the airports on the receiving end.

These two, and the US legacies generally, have been enjoying unusually good profits lately due in part to them using ageing equipment for longer than they perhaps originally planned - thanks to Mr Boeing and his 787 delays for that - not to mention keeping a much tighter control of capacity than they did previously. As a result their economy fares from the regions can be quite eye-watering at times too. But they are businesses and are in it for the bottom line, so the longer they can prolong the status quo the happier their shareholders will be, if not their customers.

I think S1E is right when he says AA don't really seem to know what to do with MAN-ORD, and considering the effort that went into getting the route started back in the late-80s. They've pulled a lot of transatlantic service out of ORD over the years, but the fact MAN has always survived means it must be profitable. But the chopping and changing between 767s and 757s and fiddling with the frequency in recent years is a cause for concern. It will be interesting to see what they do next year.

Perhaps Bagso is right....a dose of the MEB3 on transatlantic could be just the wake up call one or two airlines might need. Given the choice between a shiny 77W with all the bells and whistles, or a clapped out 757 with possibly a free stopover in Bangor in February, I know which option I'd be choosing ;) Though if this ever became a serious possibility I've no doubt they'd pull out all the stops to ensure it never sees the light of day.

MANFOD

1st Aug 2014, 13:33

OltonPete, thanks again for your efforts.

Re. the 3 winter months Jan-Mar, and purely based on LFs (as like you I've no knowledge of fares or yields), my reaction is that the 2 New York routes and Atlanta are actually not bad at all. ORD, IAD and PHL are a different matter, and it's not hard to see why the first two have been suspended for 12 and 9 weeks respectively this coming winter.

As for June, the LFs if all flights operated would be:

ATL 85%

ORD 85%

JFK 89%

EWR 88%

IAD 83%

PHL 79%

However, I think there may have been the odd cancellation due tech problems (United?) and even weather in the US, but I'm not sure.

If 60 flights operated to/from CLT, the average was 128, not disastrous for a new route on a 757.

No doubt CLT has caused some dilution, mainly it would seem on PHL. The latter is a concern, as for several years when the A333 operated, it was often reportedly full during the summer. Whether we'll see either of the 2 US routes next summer is in my view questionable, not least because of what may result from the AA/US merger.

That said, the other 5 routes in June are pretty reasonable in terms of LFs, despite the percentage drops from 2013.

I wonder whether the Dublin effect of US pre-clearance and no APD is having just a marginal or a more significant impact on the non-stop flights.

BasilBush

1st Aug 2014, 14:21

Regarding CLT and PHL, both routes are regularly showing good availability for mileage redemptions in J class (especially CLT, which seems wide open). This is particularly evident at the AA MileSaaver rates, which are otherwise hard to find on transatlantics. This can't be a good sign in terms of overall route yields.

Bagso

1st Aug 2014, 15:55

Not sure its LAXs fault that ;

Flynas pulled out

AA are pulling Chicago for 3 months....

and if rumours are true USAir switching CLT to Heathrow

-----------------------------------------------------------

If you feel that strongly try tweeting the airport !

While you are at it ask them why, if you go to THEIR website "Book flights" and put in

Manchester - USA
Direct
Dep 14/8 retn 21 /8

You can ONLY input country

...the website falls on its @@@@, sorry I mean backside !

Try going to the

Destinations - Want 2 Go There (http://www.want2gothere.com/man/destinations/) Interactive map

choose Country View all, Airport View Chicago.....

Nothing happens !

OK try the map

Choose Chicago website stops sits there "loading"
Toronto - same
Washington -same
Reykavik -same

Now lets try the Go West page

Manchester Airport : Fly-Manchester-West (http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/manweb.nsf/Content/fly-manchester-west)

Choose Chicago
Explore Now
Airlines Book Now takes you to AA site...fine

But try Chicago 7 night 19/9 £839....falls on its @@@@ AGAIN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At that point I gave up, Im trying to book a flight not test coding !

Quite frankly I'm of the opinion they deserve what they get.

Who is managing this output, its actually embarrassing !

If the CEO sees this he s/b apoplectic ..........AGAIN !

If the airport is seemingly unable to direct passengers to its OWN flights on its OWN web page quite frankly what hope do we have ?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good News - Highways agency tweeted earlier today M56 closed weekend see web site !

Maybe somebody alerted them....?

Bad News 6 hours later as at 1700 as the "Witching Hour" approaches .....no reference (as far as I can see) anywhere to M56

Not on front page, news page, breaking news or planned ?

BasilBush

1st Aug 2014, 16:10

Bagso, I think you may have browser problems. The various links work fine for me, even on an iPad which isn't always stable. Both the airportdirecttravel and AA.com links work, and give price quotes.

Bagso

1st Aug 2014, 16:16

Take your point Basil.

I'm on windows 7 using latest IE

Don't have any other problems so know idea !

I have two more laptops so will try on them.

Maybe others can give a go.........?

avturboy

2nd Aug 2014, 00:41

I am gob smacked at the timing of this closure by the Highways Agency. The bridge has been in place for 40 years, it is not in immediate danger of collapse, this could have been timed for later in the year without causing any problem to the development of airport city (which is why we are told the bridge replacement is necessary).

To carry out this work at this time on an airport link is diabolicle bad timing. However much advertising has been done it will cause chaos and it is completely unnecessary.

It is all well and good saying that traffic flow will be reduced over the weekend, not a working day. However this is an exit route from the North West to North Wales it is just as busy at the weekends ... The closure at this time is ludicrous and unnecessary.

Highways Agency 0/10 ......

Ian Brooks

2nd Aug 2014, 07:13

just looked at webcam for m56 at Hale and all flowing smoothly
but if you look at traffic camera for J5 you can see how work is coming on
BBC - Travel News - Manchester : Traffic Jam Cameras (http://www.bbc.co.uk/travelnews/manchester/trafficcameras)

Ian

eggc

2nd Aug 2014, 07:45

A new bridge has to be built, in Oct or Nov I think, and it'll be closed for a little longer, and this type of work is rarely carried out in the midst of winter.

As Ian says, traffic is flowing, people are getting to MAN pretty easily, and again this is all very much fuss for nothing. Before you know it it will be open again.

Did anyone watch regional news last night on TV ? Fairly lengthy reports on both main channels about it.

MANFOD

2nd Aug 2014, 14:34

Ian, the pictures from the traffic cameras for J4 & J7 as at 15.30 indicate lengthy queues. Significant delays I imagine.

DavidWoodward

2nd Aug 2014, 16:35

You say about not doing it in August but if you do it at any other time you're going to impact on commuters in and out of Manchester as well as travellers at MAN. There's no perfect time for doing it but this weekend is as good as any in my opinion.

Ian Brooks

2nd Aug 2014, 17:41

MANFOD this was due to a separate problem as there there was a very serious accident nr Hale involving a car and a bus on one of the diversion routes and caused a delay coming off motorway (looking at picture lucky nobody killed as bus is a write off by looks.

Ian

Ian Brooks

2nd Aug 2014, 17:43

not good
BBC News - Two injured in A538 Hale Barns car and bus collision in (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-28621801)

Bagso

3rd Aug 2014, 11:16

With the colossal interest in the Manchester United, City and dare I say it Liverpool games in the US , i'm reminded again that no organisations in Manchester where we have the airport have seen fit to make any promotion of visiting a game over here.

To me at least it seems an incredible missed opportunity.

Never mind a 39th game over there Manchester as a City , Manchester City, Football Museum, Hotel Football etc AND the Airport s/b be pushing to get these fans over here on 4 day packages.

Given the size of the US it would not take much to get a few hundred fans a week on our flights to Manchester !

It just needs relevant parties to organize themselves.

Again the impetus is utterly non existent !

Is there no organisation in the NWest with any vision able to pull all the relative strands together ?

rutankrd

3rd Aug 2014, 13:57

Is there no organisation in the NWest with any vision able to pull all the relative strands together ?

No because our friends in the North East scuppered the idea of English Regional Assemblies and City Mayors with clout some years back.

MANFOD

3rd Aug 2014, 14:28

RUTANKRD, Was it a Freudian slip or did you intentionally write "fiends" instead of "friends"?? A good point you make though. It's fair to say Boris carries some clout, except perhaps when it comes to building new airports.

Ah, you've corrected it!

spannersatcx

3rd Aug 2014, 15:23

I can assure there are many many 'non locals' at Old Trafford every week, from all over the world. The inherent problem would be getting match tickets, not the easiest thing to do.

Skipness One Echo

3rd Aug 2014, 15:35

So the answer is more politicians? Are you serious? You had a look at the current thought and actually went "Smashing, more please!"
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson has no clout, delegates everything meaningful and plots. He is an entertainer and journalist with no credible record of notable achievement in public office. I say that as someone who voted for him. If more of that sort of malarkey is your answer, then your question is ill defined. People don't want more snouts in the trough pond life climbing aboard the public sector gravy train, and rightly so.

What Boris does have is Eton connections via "Call me Dave", similar to "son of Harman", "son of Straw" and God help us, "son of Bliar"! Don't encourage them.

rutankrd

3rd Aug 2014, 15:51

Skip we have been here before.

Actually I would sooner fewer and larger regional assemblies than the hopeless and amateur system of local government we have today.

As for Boris through agree with you and I didn't vote for him or Ken the clown !

Mr A Tis

3rd Aug 2014, 17:12

If anyone is thinking of bringing their budding aviators to the MAN Aviation Viewing Park this August. Be aware- they have chosen the school holidays to close the AVP cafe / restaurant / shelter for refurb.
I understand closed until Sept 5th (ish)

eggc

3rd Aug 2014, 18:03

That will be because it is absolutely rammed with school trips during term time. Daft as it sounds it is probably not as busy during school holidays. Less staff are needed during this time anyway, so my last statement sort makes sense if you look at staffing levels.

MANFOD

3rd Aug 2014, 19:05

Skip, I think the issue regarding politicians is whether MAN could make more use of them as part of its armoury, be it MPs, Councilors, Mayors or whatever.

As a relative youngster compared with some of us, you may not be so familiar with how the late Sir Gil Thompson helped to make his mark as CEO at MAN in the 1980's. He got local MPs on his side to lobby parliament and had a team who regularly met with civil servants from the Dept. of Transport to help raise MAN's profile and apply pressure on matters such as the vexed question of bilaterals. It was slow progress and must have been frustrating at times, but I suspect a number on here would agree it paid dividends. Business leaders were also co-opted to press Manchester's cause. What would have happened to MAN's development had those links not been established is a matter of conjecture but some would argue they were an important cog in the marketing wheel.

That was 25-30 years ago. Have politicians changed and would that sort of lobbying be as effective now? Don't know, but if it's not happening, maybe it's worth a try.

rutankrd

3rd Aug 2014, 19:17

Gil Thomson and Alf Morris were a working partnership, and regrettable his niece the Baroness of Yardsley doesn't seem so inclined towards our City !

Todays lobbying is of a differing magnitude however far more open to external scrutiny at every opportunity.

Things change not always for the better !

Skipness One Echo

3rd Aug 2014, 19:49

Oh no I am aware of Gil Thomson and I paid tribute to him further back in the thread in terms of a laser like focus working with people to promote Manchester Airport rather than the current fragmented MAG model.
This focus brought SQ, CX, AA et al but I think today's landscape is much more fragmented with less focus and certainly less talent. There was something of an aviation policy back in the day, not a great one mind but they had one.

MANFOD

3rd Aug 2014, 21:58

Delta winter14/15

It was initially reported that DL were upgrading their MAN-ATL service to a A332 this winter and then a further upgrade was announced to a B764.

On checking flights we have booked this side of Christmas, I found the a/c is now back to a B763, although dates I looked at in Feb. are still showing the 764.

Logohu

4th Aug 2014, 02:40

Ref Delta winter 14/15. Our booking system now shows DL64/65 reduced to 5 weekly from 26Oct until 04Jan and on a 763. The no service days being Thu and Sun (ex MAN). Then from 05Jan it shows the flight operating daily on a 764.

Armodeen

4th Aug 2014, 03:57

I was chatting to a family friend the other day who happens to be a training captain on the b777 for Saudia, who since retirement from flying duties has gotten into the management there. Naturally I asked about their Manchester service, the very mention of which caused a noticable wince. He said the route was doing very well and that it should never have been stopped in the first place. He says that when the route was originally operated the then station manager begged for a direct flight but was declined and hence the route failed. Now he said the intention is to increase to daily b777 flights late next year.

He also said some interesting things about the poor marketing of Saudia which he thinks is largely attitude based, and also a product of the 'jobs for the boys' mentality within the airline which sees non marketing professionals being put in charge of exactly that.

Bagso

4th Aug 2014, 06:03

Greater Manchester to strengthen bilateral trade with India, maybe ?

Greater Manchester to strengthen bilateral trade with India - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/greater-manchester-strengthen-bilateral-trade-7555115)

This perhaps is an example of being seen to be really innovative, (it is most welcome), BUT then when you scratch below the surface it all gets a wee bit flaky !

Its precisely what I was eluding to , 3/4 postings back !

The MP chairing this is from The Midlands, notwithstanding she may have "close ties with the Indian community" could we not have somebody from The North, eg Sir Howard Bernstein etc heading this up ?

Is she really going to put heart and soul into batting for us when her constituency is The Midlands ?

If direct flights to India are required will she be shouting for BHX, or Manchester, does that really work ?

It has to be talking shop for the North of England as whole, it has to be mega regional not micro regional, we need companies from across a wider swathe of the North Of England , to include Merseyside and South Yorkshire.

We keep getting initiatives from individual Cities Eg Liverpool #IFB2014, there was another in Leeds a month back, now we have one for "Greater Manchester", its about time The North started to think big as a region, by all means have Manchester at the epicentre of the impetus driving change but one City is not going to be enough to make a large difference and certainly not if the sum total of marketing is 10 lines in the M E N.

"Showcasing" is a good term, if all the parties attending here are not just there for a day at the Cricket and are passionate about this , maybe they could have done this in the US market by a piggyback on the MUFC / MCFC tour as I just mentioned.

Forget 109K in the stadium . the matches were also live on NBC and ESPN across the US and indeed carried across the World.

What an opportunity that was ........!

How many sporting events have you witnessed where initially the scene is set via a promo as to where the teams come from !

Where were are all these representatives whilst that was going on ?

It "appears" some key players are in attendance strengthening these ties, super...except there appears to be no reference to the Airport, if you are building ties with the one of the fastest growing economic powers on the planet surely you need the airport there ?

It may be represented as a part member of one of the other groups but c'mon it s/b leading the charge not batting as 12th man !

More fragmentation instead of a cohesive approach !

....as was said in last posting but one, Gil where are you now !

MANFOD

4th Aug 2014, 06:33

Quoting logohu:
"Ref Delta winter 14/15. Our booking system now shows DL64/65 reduced to 5 weekly from 26Oct until 04Jan and on a 763"

Doesn't surprise me. So much for increased capacity this winter. We're lucky so far in that the flight is down to operate on the days we travel. As for a daily 764 from 4 Jan. let's wait and see, given what's happening with ORD and IAD in February/March, although DL does tend to serve a different market. I suppose an optimist might suggest the 764 is still planned later because of what's happening on ORD and IAD. Not a particularly encouraging development though for TATL from MAN this winter.

Mr A Tis

4th Aug 2014, 16:14

Sure I saw an article last week (can't remember what in) saying Delta have made a sudden reversal on their B747 plans, with a number being withdrawn. From W14 a number of B763s and B777s are being moved from Atlantic ops to Pacific ops to replace the 747s. So, it's a surprise to see the B763 back on the MAN route for winter. Of course it could change again before then.

Bagso

5th Aug 2014, 11:18

Manchester business news and reviews from the Manchester Evening News team. (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business)

Talking about massive infastructure investment in North....hopefully good news as long as it's not electioneering. That said this is what Labour should have been advocating !

Certainly based on Radio 2 debate the midlanders are very very upset, maybe there are no votes in Birmingham ?

Sadly no mention of Manchester airport !

Ps Russia talking about response to EUROPE sanctions by stopping all Europe Asia over flights. It could only happen what Cathay about to start !

MANFOD

5th Aug 2014, 11:34

You beat me to it Bagso. I couldn't spot a mention of airports either, even in Bernstein's comments. Predominantly about rail and roads.

I see that the 3 main party political leaders have pledged jointly to give the Scottish parliament more powers in the event of a 'No' vote, including on taxation. If that includes the iniquitous and damaging APD, then I'm certain the Scots would decide to abolish it or at least significantly reduce the rates, which could prove disastrous for long haul routes from MAN in particular, but also for NCL and even BHX. It would be reassuring to think that sustained pressure is being applied by MAN and North West business leaders on the Chancellor, not only regarding the present situation on APD but on the increased threat if Scotland is allowed to adopt its own policy.

BHX5DME

5th Aug 2014, 12:12

If direct flights to India are required will she be shouting for BHX, or Manchester, does that really work ?

Air India have today confirmed their BHX service will go daily from November

Air India Commits to Daily Services - Birmingham Airport (http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/meta/news/2014/08/airindia-news-article.aspx)

ICEHOUSES

5th Aug 2014, 12:14

Just seen a eurofighter fly towards a qatar airways on five mile final 23r moving fast, anybody know the reasons?

doublesix

5th Aug 2014, 12:20

Yes, I saw it as well, over Stockport. I was driving at the time and only saw one but it sounded like there were two. The one I saw broke to the north at about four miles out.

avturboy

5th Aug 2014, 12:24

My daughter lives at Bredbury, under the MAN 23R flightpath, she just called me to say she'd seen the Qatar airways with a military jet "flying in circles around it" ... look forward to seeing further info here ...

kieb92

5th Aug 2014, 12:35

BBC News - Military jets escort passenger plane to Manchester Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28662561)

pwalhx

5th Aug 2014, 13:32

The reports on what the Northern Cities have proposed has been mentioned all morning on Radio 5 and it has specifically mentioned the rail links into Manchester Airport at times.

http://www.westyorks-ca.gov.uk/uploadedFiles/Content/News/Articles/One%20North.pdf

MANFOD

5th Aug 2014, 14:11

Re Qatar:

Glad all was well, and a decent pax load too.

"Qatar Airways can confirm that flight QR23 from Doha to Manchester, an Airbus A330-300, landed safely at Manchester Airport ahead of its scheduled arrival time of 13:15.

There were 269 passengers and 13 Qatar Airways crew on board".

Ex Cargo Clown

5th Aug 2014, 18:37

Must have been intercepted earlier, I live 2nm short and saw one, but sounded like two. My mum thought it was a Vulcan lol

Fairdealfrank

5th Aug 2014, 21:19

No because our friends in the North East scuppered the idea of English Regional Assemblies and City Mayors with clout some years back.

Very sensible, they clearly saw the writing on the wall: more jumped-up politicians and bureaucrats, higher taxation, more cutbacks and nothing positive to show for it.

Not another level of artificial political constructs, please!

We've seen the consequences of this with the various council "reorganisations" over the last 50 years.

I see that the 3 main party political leaders have pledged jointly to give the Scottish parliament more powers in the event of a 'No' vote, including on taxation. If that includes the iniquitous and damaging APD, then I'm certain the Scots would decide to abolish it or at least significantly reduce the rates, which could prove disastrous for long haul routes from MAN in particular, but also for NCL and even BHX.

Yes this could create a pig's breakfast. NCL would suffer, not sure about MAN and LBA, think BHX would not be affected.

Under the current terms of devolution, the Scottish executive already has the power to vary income tax by +/- 3% compared to the UK rate. This power has never been used. Perhaps there's a good reason for it (?).

It would be reassuring to think that sustained pressure is being applied by MAN and North West business leaders on the Chancellor, not only regarding the present situation on APD but on the increased threat if Scotland is allowed to adopt its own policy.

It needs sustained pressure from all UK business leaders, we need to get rid of this damaging and iniquitous tax.

LAX_LHR

5th Aug 2014, 23:21

Etihad has reported that Manchester is the 4th busiest route on their network after Bangkok, London and Manilla. Kuwait was 5th.

kieb92

6th Aug 2014, 00:02

Good new with Etihad. Just hope they continue to expand at MAN although have seen a couple of A330's recently rather than the scheduled 777 for both flights.

Also Air China have managed to secure 2nd daily LHR flights. Does this mean MAN is off the cards? Not sure where the slots have come from:

Air China Adds 2nd Daily London Heathrow Service from late-Oct 2014 | Airline Route (http://airlineroute.net/2014/08/05/ca-lhr-w14/)

Also seems it is that time of year again when aircraft have tech problems:

TOM - 2 aircraft down for Manchester base. G-TUIE engine failure yesterday and therefore diverted to Lajes and so will need an engine change.

Incident: Thomson B788 over Atlantic on Aug 5th 2014, engine shut down in flight

G-OBYH short haul 767 operated TOM122 to Sanford but due to crew hours will be delayed until Thursday so Thomson will be 2 planes down for Wednesday flights. 1 787/1 767. May need extra capacity. Also may see something interesting to take spare engine to Lajes??

MON - G-SMAN A330 out of service since Monday and G-EOMA positioned yesterday to operate TFS flight so 2 MON A330 at MAN now.

LAX_LHR

6th Aug 2014, 10:10

Also Air China have managed to secure 2nd daily LHR flights. Does this mean MAN is off the cards? Not sure where the slots have come from:

Its not the slots that baffle me, but, where the room in the current UK-China bilateral has allowed these flights?

Apparently, the bilateral is currently 'fully utilised', yet there are at least 4 new weekly flights this winter to China (MU have increased from 5 to 6 weekly, and CA have moved the 4 flights from LGW to LHR and added 3 extra weekly flights to the schedule.)

However, with this news, the big looser could be LGW, as, with the extra flights to LHR, one can safely assume they will not be back at LGW next summer.

kieb92

6th Aug 2014, 10:18

If the bilateral to China is currently 'fully utilised', does that mean no possibility of MAN flights either?

I think this pretty much confirms that Air China is not returning to Gatwick next summer; just hope MAN gets something.

LAX_LHR

6th Aug 2014, 10:39

If the bilateral to China is currently 'fully utilised', does that mean no possibility of MAN flights either

At the moment they cannot. There is talk that the bilaterals will change this year, in line with the 'welcome China' ethos, but, as to whether that will actually take place this year is another story.

Chinese airlines are eager to expand in the UK, so its frustrating when it is just a piece of paper preventing that from happening.

Skipness One Echo

6th Aug 2014, 11:55

I won't comment on something I haven't read.
Perhaps a link would be useful to those of us who have not read the Exec Summary of the UK/China treaty?

BasilBush

6th Aug 2014, 12:17

I stand to be corrected but I understand the limiting factor is the aggregate frequency limit of 31 per week for each country, to all destinations added together. There is also a limit of 6 cities per country, but I guess that isn't of immediate concern.

HKG and (I assume) Macao are covered by separate agreements and do not therefore count towards the frequency limit.

Regional UK airports (sorry Bagso) are not treated separately from London, so if China wants to operate 31 weekly services from London then there isn't the headroom to fly from MAN or elsewhere. But is a China approaching this limit - if not, then the bilateral can't really be blamed for the lack of MAN services?

Does anyone have any updated info?

See also http://www.aviationeconomics.com/NewsItem.aspx?title=United-Kingdom-and-China-begin-negotiations-to-increase-flights-

MANFOD

6th Aug 2014, 13:13

Basil, that link refers to "up to 6 departure points in the UK and China".

Are those departure points specified, and if not is it a total of 6 between the 2 countries i.e. could it be 5 in China and only 1 in the UK. Or does it mean 6 in each country?

The other thing that struck me is that it includes cargo carriers. That could imply that MAN is reliant on both passenger and cargo operators not wanting more flights into London before a MAN service is considered.

Perhaps someone has the stats for how many flights China currently has out of the 31 quota until a new agreement is reached, with and without the LGW flights continuing.

It has been argued by some that there is nothing to stop services to MAN starting under the present arrangement as Basil is trying to clarify. If that is the case, doesn't it suggest that Chinese carriers are more prepared to wait for suitable slots at LHR rather than take a risk on MAN?

The last point is how would Hainan fit into this arrangement as they don't appear at present to be one of the registered Chinese carriers?

BasilBush

6th Aug 2014, 13:49

MANFOD

It's 6 points in each country.

As for your other questions, re cargo flights and Hainan Airlines I don't know the answer. I would assume that Hainan would be included, as the definition in the ASA is based on airlines controlled by each country's nationals.

Your point about airlines perhaps not being prepared to take a risk on MAN is a fair one, and in that respect perhaps the frequency limit does indeed have an insidious effect even if it is not currently biting.

Armodeen

6th Aug 2014, 15:53

Lufthansa 434 A340-600 D-AIHP operating MUC - ORD looks to be diverting into MAN squawking 7700.

Shame I left half an hour ago :/

Bagso

6th Aug 2014, 16:34

Bilaterals - the bagso school of diplomacy !

This quite frankly really is complete and utter codswallop !

Allow Air China in to serve a secondary airport ie Manchester or God forebid BHX and grant same rights to a UK airline in China.

If this was LHR whatever the issue i do not believe for one minute there would be a problem, (and thus proven), it would be fixed in an instant !

The senior management at MAN really do need to grow some GT b@@ls and get after whoever is obstructing this.

I will repeat nothing will change until there is a hell of a row !

We have had the softly softly approach and Whitehall does not get it !

MANFOD

6th Aug 2014, 16:51

Bagso, the problem is that I'm not sure it's been clearly established that anything is obstructing Air China starting a MAN service.

For example, if the 4 LGW flights are being transferred to LHR and Air China are adding 3 to go double daily, does it not suggest that they could have elected to put those 3 extra flights into MAN? What I'm trying to say is even if the bilateral was amended to allow more flights between the UK and China, what guarantee is there that Air China would start a MAN service? And even if they did, would the result be the same as at LGW when slots at LHR became available?

Neither has anyone confirmed as far as I know that these 3 extra flights to London will fill up the Chinese quota of 31 weekly flights if this is still the maximum.

Just to add, if the bilateral was amended to increase the number of flights allowed and Hainan was registered as one of the airlines (which it may not be at present), then in my view MAN may have a better chance.

BasilBush

6th Aug 2014, 16:54

It does seem to be taking an unacceptably long time, Bagso. Here is the DfT press release from last October. Sounds all hunky dory, but what on earth is taking so long?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-agrees-start-of-new-aviation-negotiations-with-china

Skipness One Echo

6th Aug 2014, 17:24

CA 851 05:50 PEK LGW N 2014S 4
CA 937 17:45 PEK LHR T2 2014S 7
VS 251 17:20 PVG LHR T3 2014S 7
CZ 303 15:25 CAN LHR T4 2014S 7
MU 551 18:40 PVG LHR T4 2014S 4
BA 1168 13:00 PVG LHR T5 2014S 1
BA 38 15:10 PEK LHR T5 2014S 7
BA 88 16:10 CTU LHR T5 2014S 5
BA 168 16:25 PVG LHR T5 2014S 6

Which comes to 48 per week
26 between BA/VS
22 between the Chinese airlines.

The senior management at MAN really do need to grow some GT b@@ls and get after whoever is obstructing this.

I will repeat nothing will change until there is a hell of a row !

We have had the softly softly approach and Whitehall does not get it !
#rantyrantyranty

MANFOD

6th Aug 2014, 17:36

Thanks Skip. So with the 3 extra flights by Air China, it takes the total by Chinese carriers to 25, still well within the 31 allowed.

Final point. Unless Manchester has been excluded in some way e.g. if the British have only stipulated London, despite 6 destinations apparently being allowed, I really can't see the obstacle. Has anyone from MAN actually stated that the bilateral is the reason for the delay?

roverman

6th Aug 2014, 18:00

No-one at MAN is saying the bilateral is an obstacle. They are working through the relevant channels to secure a direct MAN-Beijing service, there is a commercial case and it will surely happen before long. I think we just need to trust the people tasked with achieving it.

MANFOD

6th Aug 2014, 18:35

Thanks roverman. That was the conclusion I was coming to. We seem to have got hung up on the bilateral being a problem when it appears it isn't, at least as things stand.

anothertyke

6th Aug 2014, 19:26

Thank goodness for a spot of clarity. So are there any other countries where bilaterals are known to be a binding constraint on ops out of MAN or is this all just theoretical?

BasilBush

6th Aug 2014, 19:36

As far as I am aware, MAG made no specific references in its Davies Commission submissions on the issue of bilaterals inhibiting the development of new services. So it could well be a red herring.

Ringwayman

6th Aug 2014, 20:08

Flybe slightly enhancing domestic routes...extra Monday to Friday Exeter service from the winter timetable plus a couple of extra Edinburgh services (Tues/Thurs(

LAX_LHR

6th Aug 2014, 22:09

We seem to have got hung up on the bilateral being a problem when it appears it isn't, at least as things stand.

I will have to see if I can quote an external source, but, the email I have seen and has been circulated amongst several other sources reads, and, this is a direct copy and paste:

''Air China has already spent £625,000 seeking an addendum to serve Manchester, to which they have the rights to serve from the CAAC (granted in 2009), but cannot start services at this time as there is no room in the current UK-China bilateral''

Now, given cargo flights are covered in the bilateral, the fact Manchester has been served by Air China shows MAN is one of the 6 points allowed in the current bilateral. Given there is room right now to start a flight, I am genuinely at a loss as to why Air China are reportedly having such an issue that they have already parted with that amount of money.

All names taken

6th Aug 2014, 22:31

And let's not forget they have already served MAN on a scheduled basis in the past albeit with freighters - but it proves they have rights.
All seems rather odd.

kjsharg

7th Aug 2014, 03:28

Hi,

Heard a rumour about airline services starting up full pax services

Also just read about dnata also starting at MAN

Can anyone confirm these and what airlines they have in mind

Any news on ground handling for monarch, cx or vueling?

Ian Brooks

7th Aug 2014, 07:06

dnata have had an operation at MAN for quite a while

Ian

spannersatcx

7th Aug 2014, 07:25

Any news on ground handling for cx?
The assessment has been done of the GHA's, contract(s) will be offered when ready I guess.

LAX_LHR

7th Aug 2014, 10:20

Lets hope any rumours of trans-Siberian route sanctions do not come to fruition.

You would expect that such sanctions would affect the yield of the new MAN-HKG route, which would be considered by many as one of the more 'marginal' CX long haul routes.

It wouldn't be the first time an issue concerning Russia has made us fall at the final hurdle regarding a Cathay Pacific and Hong Kong route

Logohu

7th Aug 2014, 10:52

At the moment it seems Russian overflight bans, if they do go ahead, would only affect US/EU airlines, or basically any countries that support sanctions against Russia. No idea where Hong Kong stands on that issue, although China as a whole is usually considered a friend of Russia.

110Cornets

7th Aug 2014, 13:44

Surely a Russian ban on EU flights over Siberia would be countered by a European ban of RU carriers into and over EU skies?

Bagso

7th Aug 2014, 14:52

I retract unreservedly my previous assertion that the Honorable Member for Wythenshawe had "gone missing ".

I refer those interested to the follow

Regional Airports | Digiminster Members Data Portal (http://membersdataportal.digiminster.com/Debates/Commons/2014-07-15/5489)

It appears Mr Kane managed to secure a debate on regional airports and although it quote "become something of a game of bingo as each MP batted for their airport" he at least was shouting for Manchester and it has to be said with some venom ! Hallelujah !

Something that cannot be said for Graham Stringer who in his responses was quite strident about building 2 more runways in London.

I am tempted to say let London MPs argue for that. He is voted in by Mancunians and in my view should be batting for Manchester regardless of his own opinions !

Ironically I tracked this down whilst looking for Graham Stringers comments on bilaterals it was on that basis that my posting was made as he has been outspoken about these in the past.

When he appeared on the Transport Committee he was VERY adamant this was an issue, I am trying to find the exact comments which are held in Hansard !

He kept trumpeting the view that Manchester s/b be outside UK bilaterals as it was infected with issues relating to London rather than the very simple formualae I subscribe to;

The airport wants the services
An airline wants to offer these
Solved

IF it isn't an issue of bilaterals however, it is more of a worry as it is becoming crystal clear that Air China etc clearly have no interest in Manchester !

Where does that leave Manchester, wasn't this such a key plank of the Manchester - China Forum.

Are we now down to Hainan ?

Did AC spend the £ to get into Manchester on the basis that there were no slots into LHR ?

Having now secured these maybe £600K will simply be written off as a by product of rights into the UK, rights that now take them to the Capital.

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On a separate theme has anybody seen Manchester's response to Davies ?

I appreciate the response from regional airport to his finding thus far was more about punting for connectivity to "their" airport but would still be interesting to see what MAG actually said ?