MANCHESTER - 9

[rutankrd]

The problem with the London Midland trains is that they have far more scheduled stops and take almost an hour longer to cover the journey than the Virgin services

Talk about missing the point few are suggesting travailing all the way to Euston on a LM class 350 :=

A few train spotters might and just a few on a very tight budget where a near 4 hour journey time could be unimportant -Still quicker than a coach;)

It IS those intermediate stops along the Trent Valley abandoned by stagecoach (Virgin branded) pendulinos for which direct access to Ringway would be a benefit should they gain open access beyond Crewe :ok:

[Capetonian]

I'm not missing the point at all, but perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. I understand that the local communities need service to the airport but the links are slow and impractical, which is why I drew the analogy with the local services to/from LHR.

The terms of the LM franchise are that they have to serve the local communities, which is precisely why their services between, e.g. London and Birmingham are pretty useless for most people other than, as said, train spotters, nerds,and penny pinchers.

[rutankrd]

MANFOD

This could get rather off topic however i'll try and answer and with reference to previous comments and the LM franchise -North of Rugby they have paths into Birmingham and operate all stopping trains through Trent Valley on WCML.
Local services around Birmingham are operated/co-ordinated by Centro the West Midlands equivalent of TFGM.

They also hold the franchise to operate Birmingham- Lime Street stopping trains.

So at Crewe they have two converging franchises .

Currently they have no authority to run from Crewe towards Manchester as this forms part of the Northern Franchise operation.

However they can apply for what is called open access (True commercial operation with NO subsidies what so ever).
Granting such the regulators would require a detailed business plan and would have to find suitable paths along the line - LM would also have to pay significant charges to Network Rail for those paths.

And yes should such be granted they are likely to be extensions of the Trent Valley services rather than Birmingham operations so as not to impinge on Arriva Cross Country and Virgin traffic rights.

All the convoluted mess that is the modern railway industry !

[rutankrd]

I'm not missing the point at all, but perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. I understand that the local communities need service to the airport but the links are slow and impractical, which is why I drew the analogy with the local services to/from LHR.

The terms of the LM franchise are that they have to serve the local communities, which is precisely why their services between, e.g. London and Birmingham are pretty useless for most people other than, as said, train spotters, nerds,and penny pinchers.

Sorry MOD but I have to reply!

Agreed local rail connections at Heathrow other than towards town are non existent cepting the many and varied coaching links to Feltham, Woking and Reading and the Carrousel bus service to High Wycombe oh and the 724 Greenline all the way the Harlow all link a multitude of rail lines in many directions

True the cross border Surrey bus services are abysmal - That coz Surrey are cheap stakes and won't/don't contribute to good public transport.

As to the Chilterns well I think living in Wallingford for more than a decade and travelling right across the region to places such as Leighton Buzzard Thame, Missenden, Chesham, Marlow frequently on the train and buses I can sympathise.

Might be a Mancunian but an exile these days in North West London !

As for denigrating LM those services in their rump franchise south of Rugby and Northampton are some of the busiest and profitable commuter routes in the land !

[Capetonian]

cepting the many and varied coaching links to Feltham, Woking and Reading and the Carrousel bus service to High Wycombe oh and the 724 Greenline all the way the Harlow all link a multitude of rail lines in many directionsThey are slow, infrequent, and unpunctual. Have you ever, for example, tried the 555 between LHR and Walton-on-Thames, which goes through all the industrial areas and suburbs, stopping at every other lamppost. Just not practical.

[rutankrd]

They are slow, infrequent, and unpunctual. Have you ever, for example, tried the 555 between LHR and Walton-on-Thames, which goes through all the industrial areas and suburbs, stopping at every other lamppost. Just not practical.
Short axle mini bus and yes just few times to Chertsey for job interview of all things - Truly rubbish and extensive !

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Reference MANFOD's post:

Discontinued Manchester Airport rail-links (southbound) which spring to mind are the aforementioned Airport - Euston service (four daily?) and a frequent through-service to Skegness (some trains terminated at Nottingham). I don't believe these were abject 'failures' as such. IIRC, they were casualties in a drive by Network Rail to improve network punctuality by rationalising some duplicated services at chokepoints. The Skegness / Nottingham service, which was operated by one or two coach DMU Sprinters, was culled following this review. Line capacity was also an issue for the Euston service. That's what the rail mags reported at the time anyway!

If any new service uses existing London Midland paths in the Midlands and requires incremental access for the lightly-used Crewe - Manchester Airport section only, hopefully the earlier issues would not arise again.

[MANFOD]

I'm sure your points about rationalisation and line capacity are valid Shed, and I'd forgotten some of the Notingham trains went on to Skegness.

From a usage perspective, I have to day on the few occasions I saw those and the Euston trains at the Airport station, there were relatively few customers, although of course there may well have been much more traffic further along the routes.

On specific aviation matters, I understand flynas are scheduled to reduce to 2 x weekly over the winter. Given a couple of the recent outbound loads reported elsewhere, it's difficult to see the route lasting at all, unless there is a maximum amount of freight being carried below. Does anyone know if the decent Saudia loads have been maintained? The CAA stats reported 4,999 pax to Jeddah in May, but it's hard to assess Saudia without knowing just how bad the flynas figures were. If the latter averaged say 40 per flight, it would suggest an average for Saudia of around 150 but I imagine the J class loads and freight are vital components.

[Crazy Voyager]

Sounsd like reasonable numbers to me, I think Saudia carried 189 outbound today, not sure what it was in. Flynas was the usual less than 20 numbers IIRC.

I don't know what keep those two going, even 189 for a B772 sounds very thin to me, but then again, I know very little about the runnings of an airline.

[All names taken]

At a time of rumoured unprecedented long haul expansion and the biggest redevelopment in the airport's history out to consultation, all you can find to talk about is......trains.......? :ugh:

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Not just trains. We're actually talking about surface access to Manchester Airport by public transport generally. Big changes are afoot with the imminent opening of Metrolink to the city and the fourth heavy rail platform for inter-city trains. A major opportunity exists for MAG to push forward its policy of encouraging increased usage of public transport by both passengers and staff. This includes existing users and others who may be attracted to use Manchester Airport by more practical transportation options from their localities.

Of course we're interested in discussing new air service expansion. But in order for new services to succeed good surface access to the airport must be provided. Significant improvements on this front are vital to the success of Manchester Airport in their own right. If you consider the big picture and the customers' door-to-door journey in real life (as opposed to just runway to runway) you will understand the logic and importance of the topic. No need to bang your head like that!

[All names taken]

I understand where you're coming from but the head banging is the emoticon for frustration which, in this case is borne of the lack of debate about two of the biggest positive developments to affect MAN in its history.

I suspect it is because hardly any of the posters on this forum are actually 'in the know'.

[Capetonian]

I think Saudia carried 189 outbound today
Booked :
F5 (capacity 24)
C16 (38)
Y 171 (170)

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

If Saudia are already able to fill Y Class, I genuinely hope that FlyNas have a decent sales-rep talking to the leading ethnic travel agencies as a matter of urgency. Customers clearly exist … FlyNas just isn't reaching the market.

All names taken … I agree with your assessment reference discussion of the 'big ticket' topics you raise. I'm sure those subjects will be discussed to death once clear information emerges into the public domain. In the meantime, speculation and wishlists are of limited value. I will contribute to discussion if I feel I can add something new to the thread knowledge-base, but prefer not to post empty speculation for the sake of it. It is quite likely that afew regulars here are 'in the know' but they will be restricted by confidentiality considerations. Best regards.

PS. Ever since first posting on the subject of Saudia and FlyNas on this and another well-known forum I've been receiving loads of banner ads for Hajj and Umrah packages. Some of the prices look very attractive for the exotic flying element alone … but I'm not sure the Saudis will be admitting an Infidel like me to their country any time soon! Meanwhile, Tesco is marketing 'Ramadan Mubarak' groceries (delivered to my door) right here on the PPRuNe page. I'm not sure what they are. Perhaps I should order some. Maybe FlyNas should talk to Google and the like ...

[CabinCrewe]

Are FlyNas still on the route...? And if so for how long ?

[Capetonian]

Schedules show FlyNas operating MAN-JED on days 3,5,7, until end of OCT after which nothing is shown, which does not necessarily mean not operating.

[MANFOD]

Quoting Capetonian re SV loads:

"Booked :
F5 (capacity 24)
C16 (38)
Y 171 (170)"

If 189 was the final figure, the booked numbers suggest 3 no-shows, but F & C combined is 1/3 occupancy. That doesn't strike me as too bad, and the total load of 189 is about 82% LF on the 232 seat a/c. If that is typical, I imagine SV will be pretty pleased in the first 3 months of operation.

[Capetonian]

That depends on the yields (which I could work out and publish but clearly that is confidential commercial information).

The majority of the passengers were on fairly heavily discounted tickets in lower yield buckets, fairly typical of that ethnic market. Only 16 in full Y and and none in full C class. Similar loads over the next few days.

[Bagso]

I sincerely hope i am wrong but it appears to me that a certain airline are being left to swing in the breeze.

Now that may be of their own doing, so be it.....

but if other competition on the route did not exist ill bet somebody / somewhere would have been a wee bit more agile in retaining this destination, if Allah forbids there were only one operator.

Seems to me there is a bit of complacency in the air !

I don't want to quote the line

"We are alright Jack"with a smirk.

....but I recall a similar level of smugness when the locos arrived at Liverpool in the early 90s.

Not sure how many times I have to repeat this but we are not LHR we should not miss ANY opportunity. .

I am sick to the back to the teeth of this gain 3 lose 1 mentality!

Make every route offered by EVERY airline work !

It really is not that difficult. ......to at least try !

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Capetonian - Without breaching confidentiality, are you able to confirm whether the bulk of passengers were ending their journeys in Saudi Arabia? It would be interesting to learn whether there are efforts to feed flights beyond Saudi to markets such as Pakistan and India. Thanks for your info.

[Capetonian]

Quick answer ......... yes.

But can't do it right now, will try to remember to do it later or tomorrow. In order not to breach any confidentiality I will just say :
Out of 'x' passengers, 'y' are connecting to destinations beyond SA. That information is not confidential, anyone willing to pay (lots of money!) for it can get full details from the MIDT figures.

[Capetonian]

Done, quickly.

60 pax connecting onwards within 24 hours. >24 hours is not considered as connecting and it would be a bigger job to pull that stat.

57 to destinations within SA (majority to RUH), ergo, 3 to an international destination.

Looking at loads over the next few flights, those figures are pretty typical, in fact some have less international onward connecions.

(For avoidance of doubt SA is correct ISO code for Saudi Arabia,
South Africa is ZA)

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Thanks for that information, Capetonian. And what a revealing statistic that is. Just 3 out of 192 booked passengers continuing travel beyond Saudi Arabia. WOW!!! So underlying demand for travel to Saudi Arabia itself is pretty strong to/from NW England (at the right price). And for FlyNas, there must be significant brand-awareness at the Jeddah end of the route. Maybe Saudia is winning on price?

One consideration which had crossed my mind … and it may be totally "out there", so feedback is welcome. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is fiercely proud of its role as the guardian of Islam's holiest sites. The emblems and logos on Saudia aircraft relate to the Qu'ran and each aircraft carries the slogan "God Bless You" on the front of the fuselage. The airline is an extension of the country's Islamic identity and ideals. It also reflects the Saudi Royal Family's Muslim values internationally.

As such, yield on fares may not be the only consideration at play here. Saudi Arabia is over 99% Muslim (excluding foreign guest workers). 85%+ of these are Sunnis, and many of those are Wahhabis - following a particularly devout, ultra-conservative interpretation of Islam. As such, the 'Five Pillars of Islam' govern every facet of life. One of these - Zakat - relates to charitable giving, a sacred duty to every Muslim of means. Another is Hajj - the sacred duty to make pilgrimage to the holy sites.

For a devout Muslim, there can be few greater gifts to another Muslim than to assist in enabling a less financially-able pilgrim to visit the holy sites. Saudia - an extension of the immensely wealthy and supremely devout Kingdom - is in a position to provide affordable travel to those holy sites. Commercial YIELD may not be the key driver in this case … putting the sacred duty of pilgrimage within the financial reach of additional devout Muslims could be a far greater consideration. It can form part of Saudi Arabia's gift to the wider Islamic community. Money is a total afterthought to religious obligations … Saudi Arabia has financed grand mosques in many other countries. Maximising access to the holy sites is considered an honourable religious duty.

Of course, whilst Saudia is an extension of the Islamic Kingdom, FlyNas is a private commercial concern (albeit owned by a reportedly wealthy backer). Perhaps they must provide fares governed by commercial returns rather than operating as a conduit to discounted sacred pilgrimage travel?

Certainly, Saudi Arabia deeply values its role as home to Islam's holiest sites. Is it a stretch to suppose that the state airline is subsidising pilgrimage travel to maximise numbers able to visit them? Observing the Five Pillars is absolutely fundamental to devout Muslims. Enabling others to do so is deeply honourable. It is perhaps a far greater consideration than maximising yield on economy ticket sales ...

[Logohu]

Ref JED. It would also be interesting to know how the freight loads have been so far, and whether Saudia is getting the lion's share of that as well ?

A healthy revenue base downstairs gives an airline more ability to withstand lower yields and/or demand in the passenger cabin, especially with 777 and A330 aircraft which have plenty of volume available under the floor for freight.

[Una Due Tfc]

Goes to show just how many Saudis live in the greater Manchester area, and reflects extremely poorly on the marketing department of FlyNas

As an aside, is Saudi Arabia the only place currently in existence where the ruling family named the entire country after themselves? Maybe Britain should be called "Habsburg Island"? Just a thought.....

[Bagso]

Chancellor George Osborne set to announce plans for new 'HS3' line between Manchester and Leeds - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/chancellor-george-osborne-set-announce-7308026)

Election in the offing ?

At bloody last, this is more important than Hs2 and more relevant..but what about Liverpool ?

I think we should all toast Evan Davies for this.
MAG could do with somebody with this vision !

With Manchester at the centre this can only be a boom for Manchester Airport.

Re Saudi, thee largest followers to holy sites from Birm to Hull to South Yorks to Lancs are actually from Pakistan not Saudi.

...that may or may not be relevant to Arabic thinking but either way it's a massive market.

Here's an innovative idea why not push Jeddah and The HOLY SITES on twitter/Facebook in various languages targeted at specific groups ....its free

AND may be comercially more rewarding than the current campaign

ie ....10% off breakfast

[Capetonian]

Shed : I would be wary of placing too much interpretation on those figures, although you make some very valid points.

It is possible that some of those pax are continuing to destinations outside SA but with a gap of greater than 24 hours.

Others may be continuing on tickets sourced elsewhere, for example going to Pakistan using tickets sourced in that country. Ethnic agents in the UK and elsewhere are very skilled at finding the best deals through wide networks of contacts.

Neither would show on the lists that I have pulled, although it would be possible but very time consuming to get such details (which is why MIDT data is so expensive!).

Despite the demonisation of Islam which has been, understandably, brought about by the deeds of a number of fanatical murdering scum, and despite what we may see as primitive and unacceptable practices in some Muslim countries, I would add that I have spent some time in Saudi, and also elsewhere doing some work for Saudia, and was treated with kindness, generosity, and courtesy.

[750XL]

While Saudi offer decent international connections, both RUH and JED are absolutely awful to transit through and you'd have to be either brave, stupid or very adventurous to use them (I fell into the stupid and adventurous category).

[anothertyke]

Good that Mr Osborne clearly saw the PPRUNE debate about surface access to MAN before the mods knocked it off.

[Bagso]

The vision, comment, tone of the Osbourne speech re HS3 on enhancing Manchester as a powerhouse to London is almost exclusively lifted from the first class BBC2 programme "Mind The Gap", presented by Evan Davies and aired over 6 months ago.

Sorry, no original thinking from the Chancellor here I'm afraid !

If it does come off (this side of 2050) and with the metrolink expansion to the airport plus crossrail Manchester it really will offer some excellent connectivity in respect of Man Airport.

On a theme Transport for London of have been spouting copious amounts of hot air re domestic connectivity or lack of it at Heathrow and how a 3rd runway will bring back those connections, hopefully in circa 15 years time when the thing actually gets built.

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/making-connections.pdf

Maybe somebody at MAG could respond by indicating that Manchester serves more than double the domestic airports served by LHR and LGW as at, er NOW !

If you couple our 12 routes plus the easy road/rail connection to 5 other major cities which are less than an hour away, connectivity to long haul at Manchester is not that far behind Amsterdam !

[MANFOD]

The similarity between yesterday's comments and the Evan Davies documentary "Mind the Gap" is indeed quite uncanny. I just wonder though whether the idea for the program came about because it was thought the government was privately already considering the concept of a Northern powerhouse.

Nevertheless, irrespective of how much political motivation was behind the move, having been put on the table as it were, it's important that business organisations including MAN, MPs etc. don't let the matter quietly subside because it's years in the future.

Today's M.E.N includes reactions from "experts" on infrastructure which are very positive, (the CBI was slightly more cautious) and there are some outspoken remarks about the infrastructure spend in London compared to Manchester. I know some will argue that London is a global city, free market forces prevail etc. but the relative spend is so outrageous that it's almost obscene. If Crossrail 2 were ever given the go ahead before vital projects elsewhere in the country, it could prove politically disastrous.

As far as implications for air travel are concerned, if the line of cities is felt to be from Liverpool to Hull, then Leeds could argue that it is just as much central as Manchester. I do hope that before too long Manchester Airport with over 21 million passengers and a (currently) growing list of long haul destinations will make its voice heard and respond to the ideas put forward yesterday along with the Davies commission. This is surely something where MAN has a vital role to play, but may need to win the support and cooperation of some of those other northern cities to press its case for continued expansion, particularly for long haul routes, as well of course as persuading airlines that demand exists.

[Skipness One Echo]

On a theme Transport for London of have been spouting copious amounts of hot air re domestic connectivity or lack of it at Heathrow and how a 3rd runway will bring back those connections, hopefully in circa 15 years time when the thing actually gets built.
Hot air bagso? Hmmm
I think it's a good idea to allow the UK's only world hub airport to have domestic connections, you're intentionally mixing together two issues, (again).
Maybe somebody at MAG could respond by indicating that Manchester serves more than double the domestic airports served by LHR and LGW as at, er NOW !
Except MAN will never be able to offer the level of connections of LHR, nor is anyone suggesting it could, simply because of a comparably smaller O&D market. You can have as many flybe connections to Etihad as you like but it's a drip in a puddle without a based hub and spoke carrier.
connectivity to long haul at Manchester is not that far behind Amsterdam ! ROFL OK, seriously? AMS with KLM's based fleet of 117 mainline aircraft of which 69 are long haul heavies compared to MAN's ~ 18 scheduled long haul heavies per day? You have a career awaiting in politics young man :)

[eggc]

Skippy I think the comment re AMS relates to connectivity only from points within the UK

[North West]

Which begs the question.....if I'm an operator holding slots at LHR with a market value of £20m per pair, why don't I take the cash, move the operation to MAN and benefit from this fantastic connectivity ? The fact no one is doing this surely tells us everything we need to know about the relative attractiveness.

[LN-KGL]

I would compare selling slots with peeing in the bathing shorts - a momentary pleasure before the cold water again hits you in full force.

[Bagso]

A comparison with long haul connectivity between Manchester and Amsterdam is of course quite ludicrous I was merely making the point that Manchester has much better connectivity than LHR, in terms of the 12 domestic points served and its geographical relationship to Liverpool, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield, its a point that should not be lost in any "sensible" debate on airport capacity.

But both of the last two posters are as usual quite correct !

The case and appetite for regional connectivity Ex LHR is so truly overwhelming BA used all the slots it inherited from BMI, (how many was it 56 slot pairs), to fully re-establish connectivity to quite a significant number of regional cities

oh hang on, they didn't did they ! Only Leeds comes to mind !

With regard to slot values the basis on which these values are held seems to be me to be a bit like The Emperors New Clothes.....

£20M for a slot pair , I don't doubt the valuation, but which route exactly could realistically generate that kind of return and over what timeframe?


MANFOD, sensible comments as ever, according to the economists and now Mr Osbourne , critical mass seems to be the power behind economic activity with 7m people living within an hour of Manchester the largest conurbation outside London, its Manchester which is at the epi centre dare I use the term "hub" off a number of spokes !

[Skipness One Echo]

The case and appetite for regional connectivity Ex LHR is so truly overwhelming BA used all the slots it inherited from BMI, (how many was it 56 slot pairs), to fully re-establish connectivity to quite a significant number of regional cities

oh hang on, they didn't did they ! Only Leeds comes to mind !
You can't argue with the cost benefit analysis on that one, a thrice daily Inverness versus three more slots on profitable routes crying for more capacity is a no brainer. The key point is that a three runway Heathrow would allow enough spare capacity to change the equation in that argument as additional long haul capacity requires additional feed and would allow hitherto unlikely routes to make a comeback if managed properly. I think the Highlands should be connected to the UK's main hub airport as a LHR-INV offers way more options for the consumer.
£20M for a slot pair , I don't doubt the valuation, but which route exactly could realistically generate that kind of return and over what timeframe?
So your point is that Continental, Delta and American should have stayed at Gatwick as the LHR price wasn't worth paying? Clearly the commercial departments of the relative airlines disagree with you bagso as I have yet to hear of anyone clamouring to sell up and shift back round the M25 to get their money back.
Main point, there is not one thing stopping anyone taking advantage of MAN's existing excellent connectivity but there is a constraint on additional capacity at LHR. I think you place too much emphasis on big, bad London doing down MAN, it's the airlines by and large who make the decisions, not the governments nowadays. All the connections MAN has cannot and will not be maximised without a hub operation by a based carrier, and I mean something well beyond flybe, or a proper focus city by one of the alliances Neither of which is likely, so the domestic connectivity will do what it has always done well, point to point business and leisure with some oddball connections. Beyond that, there's little scope even if you get George Osbourne to move Heaven and Earth to try.

[kieb92]

TCX to lease RAF A330 Tanker for 3 years:

Thomas Cook to lease A330 from AirTanker - 6/24/2014 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/thomas-cook-to-lease-a330-from-airtanker-400698/)

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

EMIRATES has signed up for a new office building located in Manchester Business Park close to Manchester Airport. Emirates will occupy the entire building, bringing some 300 staff together. Many of the staff currently work in Wilmslow. The principal activity will be the operation of Emirates' customer contact centre covering passenger services (multi-lingual), SkyCargo and the Emirates Holidays division.

Who said that only BA in London is good for the UK economy? :-)

[This Charming Man]

Today Belgian ATC Belgocontrol went on strike . Airports were asked what they could accept in the way of diversions should the need arise , here are the answers taken from the Eurocontrol Operational Website.

quote

The following airports are available for flights diverting due to Belgian ATC strike:

EDDF: FRA
All diversions are subject to PPR. EDDF spvr telephone number: +49 610 370 76200
Can take 10 aircraft up to code D and E but request individual coordination in case of 747 or 380

EDDL: DUS
Has already coordinated with Brussels Airlines to take their 6 long hauls (A330) if needed

EDDM: MUC
Can take 8 wide body and 8 medium body

EDDK: CGN
Can take up to 7 aircraft up to size of 767/MD11 and 2 to 3 larger ones.

EDDS: STR
Limited capacity due to taxiway and position marking/demarking activities but:
short stop ~15 a/c; 3 to 4 medium if staying longer than 2hrs; 1-2 Dash or similar
1 medium, 1 light

EHAM: AMS
from 0500 to 1200 local: NO DIVERSIONS

EGLL/EGCC: LHR/MAN
no diversion possible

EGKK: LGW
3 mediums + 2/B757 + 2/Heavies EGSS:
mediums (many)

EGGW: LTN
6 mediums + 2/B767

EGFF: CWL
5 mediums

NMOC Brussels NMOC Brussels

unquote

[BDLBOS]

LHR cannot take anything as it is full.
MAN cannot take anything because it is MAN.

[Bagso]

BDLBOS

....If you send me your address I'll send you some crayons and a Maccies Menu :ok:

But given such an illuminating post I suspect you may be to intellectually challenged to use them to best effect.

The long sweaty days in Laura Lumpur must fly by !

[BDLBOS]

Too fast and smart for me Bagso, well and truly put in my place.

No need to post the crayons, I will arrive at MAN tomorrow morning (Sat), you can deliver yourself, meet you at T3 around 0820.

Laura Lumpur, you are just too classy for me to bother with a comeback.

Keep up the good work :ok:

BDLBOS

[Bagso]

BDLBOS

Too fast and smart for me Bagso, well and truly put in my place.

and here is me thinking irony !

Despite the disparaging remark re Manchester delighted it has come to your rescue tomorrow....

8:20 arrival gosh you might see a over a dozen plus long haul tails at that time.

.......YES as Cilla Black would say "Laura Laura Lumpur"

[Turtle controller]

Bagso I think he means turn up and offer him the ironic crayons in person rather than hiding behind the endless stream of tedium that you write. Would love to see the outcome.

[Bagso]

My God Turtle Controller ....so so astute, I really hadn't grasped that you know !

I would have thought that living in Bramhall you would have been a keen supporter of Manchester, clearly not.

Lets read the posting again that kicked off this piece of vitriol !

LHR cannot take anything as it is full.
MAN cannot take anything because it is MAN.

What a highly illuminating piece of verse. Lots of facts, well researched , good balanced argument etc

I do find it odd that there a number of posters who contribute no meaningful debate to the MAN forum but rely on stupid soundbites to antagonize others.

Are you really so sad that you spend every waking hour waiting to pounce when certain people appear ?

No information, no news, no rumours, no pax figures, no observations, no comment, just a diatribe of revulsion aimed at everybody else.

I'm more than happy to refrain from posting anything further as it so offends you.

Infact i'm sure the audience would love to see your comments instead of mine so the floor as they say is yours.......:ok:

...although having only posted 10 items since 2010 we may have to wait a while for another although we can at least guarantee it will be pretty dull, monotonous and tedious like all your previous offerings.

Have you considered a job as a bingo caller ?

[LN-KGL]

You must admit Bagso, there is some truth in what Turtle controller says. LHR is balancing on the knife edge with its movements in and out of two runways, and with bad weather inbound aircraft may end up searching for shelter at other airports, even across the Channel. MAN on the other hand has for years now opted to use parts of the apron for parking cars because it's more money in that than having spare parking space for aircraft. I guess MAN have made themselves a bit unpopular within the aviation industry by relying on other airports helping them out during bad weather conditions and not offering corresponding relief in return. Airlines too will notice this unwillingness to help out, and these airlines may end up flying with heavier aircraft than necessary due to alternates more distant from the destination airport have to be filed in the flight plan.

The crayons can be delivered on one of SK4609 arrivals during the last part of August - you see we have an apprentice with us this time. :)

[Bagso]

...had the comment been balanced with objective reasoning as per yours i would totally agree.

Its the personal sniping that is the issue, some cannot help themselves !

Anyway as I said I will leave the floor open, the 10 postings in 4 years should make for an interesting read moving forward.

[easyflyer83]

I just sometimes think it's like a load of spotters throwing their toys out of the pram because they don't get to see more heavies landing into MAN.

[pwalhx]

I think there is a grain of truth in easyflyers point. What would you have the airport do, keep it's current operation running and customers happy or accept diversions that may put the former at risk.

[roverman]

One could say that there should be a certain quid pro quo within the industry to accept as well as to expect receipt elsewhere of diverted flights when circumstances dictate. This however requires the support of many stakeholders, not just the airport operators.

I think it is a measure of an airport's maturity when inbound diversions cease to be a big deal and a notable business consideration. I can't imagine that anyone at Heathrow gets excited about them. Manchester should have passed that point some years ago, even if not all of its aficionados have got there yet.

[OltonPete]

Surprised not a single post yesterday about a new (reincarnated) long-haul route that has started. I know it has been covered in earlier posts after the announcement but I assumed there would a bit more coverage on here.

Manchester Airport Air Canada Rouge Toronto flight: Airport boost as non-stop Toronto flight from Manchester takes off - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-air-canada-rouge-7339503)

The only surprise is the end date of 13 September - I assume "testing the water" before plunging in?

Any hint of it returning next year?

Pete

[BasilBush]

I do hope Bagso continues to post. His enthusiasm for MAN would be sorely missed. And he never tries to belittle others whose views he doesn't agree with, unlike certain frequent posters on this thread....

[750XL]

There's one major handling agent at MAN who are really struggling at the moment. Anybody 'in the know' will know who and what I'm on about, but dumping a load of diverts on top of their scheduled flights would cause chaos. Well done to MAG for refusing anything and potentially causing a lot of bad PR :ok:

[VickersVicount]

Think Rouge did a similar thing on their launch at EDI. Minor tweekings but schedule remained the same for the second year which was surprising although the aircraft config increased to pack em' in in economy. Air Transat appear to be unaffected which should be the same at MAN.

[MANFOD]

Quoting 750XL
"There's one major handling agent at MAN who are really struggling at the moment"

My impression is that this is not a new situation. Shouldn't the agent's airline customers, the airport and handling agent management be doing something to sort the problem if they are not already doing so? Why is it such an issue at MAN?

On another matter, I second the post by BasilBush.

[Mr A Tis]

A short series of about 7 weeks - lets hope next year it is longer.
I would have preferred Montreal, where there is no direct service at the moment. Anyway, I'm trying out the route next week.
Manchester Airport Air Canada Rouge Toronto flight: Airport boost as non-stop Toronto flight from Manchester takes off - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-air-canada-rouge-7339503)

[ZOOKER]

Many years ago, Manchester frequently had loads of 'diverts' dumped on top of their scheduled flights flights. It didn't cause chaos, in fact, it was usually handled with aplomb, - and the amount of available pavement was a fraction of what exists today.

[kieb92]

Delta to upgrade Atlanta flights this winter from an A330-200 to a 767-400. Nice upgrade as only 2 operators of this type. Extra 12 seats per flight and daily over winter:

DELTA W14 International Operation Changes as of 28JUN14 | Airline Route (http://airlineroute.net/2014/06/28/dl-w14update1/)

[bar none]

ZOOKER.

Many years ago Manchester may have had less apron space but critically it had more available space i.e south bay, old runway 28 etc. There were less night stopping aircraft and most importantly the handling staff were not cut to the bone so there were people available to handle.

[MANFOD]

For the last 2 summers, it seems to me that MAN has taken a calculated risk by deciding that it would be financially beneficial to convert 12 a/c stands into car parking which has taken away a fair amount of apron space.

Quite aside from the issue of space for diversions, available stands must be very tight for normal operations at night and first thing in the morning. I happened to be on level 13 of the MSCP at 06.00 one day recently before the early departure rush started. There was very little space on T1 or T2 or the remote stands and I'm sure T3 was the same. It did idly cross my mind that if there were long delays to a significant number of those flights - for example due to the French ATC strike which was then looming - there could well be a problem when MAN's early arrivals wave started at 07.00, notably the long hauls from the States and the Middle East. It may well be that MAN's decision can be justified if there is no serious disruption, and it was suggested elsewhere that the airport will be getting all the stands back at the end of this summer. Is that still the case does anyone know? Ironically, there were a couple of occasions a few months ago when MAN did accept several w/b diversions in a short period of time from LHR after 07.30.

The question of the ability and willingness or otherwise of handling agents to accept diversions because of staffing issues is unfortunately not a new one but seems no nearer to being resolved.

[Crazy Voyager]

During the french strike the engine test bay was notified as unavailable because it was to be avilable for parking, if it was used I do not know.

Also taxiways Q and P double as stands and taxiway, but that also means that if you lose them as taxiways there is even less flexibility and less space to put moving aircraft, or aircraft waiting for blocked stands.


In terms of space there is very little slack, it's not uncommon for aircraft to land even in the middle of the night and have to wait for a stand. Also common to see widebodies parked remote due to lack of stands, and stands like 100, 101 and 66R are commonly used for routine parking as well due to lack of space at the terminals.


From what I've heard the stands will be reverting back to aircraft parking when the new car park under the 23R approach is finished. If that holds true though I don't know. The bit past stand 216 has even been taken out of the AIP parking chart.

[ZOOKER]

Stands for diversions??
If an a/c requests a diversion to 'x', it's first requirement is to be on the ground. The handling of the pax/crew is of secondary importance.
If that diversion is not allowed, (due to accountancy taking precedence over professionalism and common sense), the possibility of an emergency situation may arise, - which nobody wants.
If you want to find out how to handle non-emergency diversions, check out the pictures of Halifax, Nova Scotia, taken on 11th September 2001.

[kjsharg]

Any news on any rumours of airlines moving handling agent? I've heard TCX to Menzies don't know how true this is.

Any news on CX?

Ty

[MClayton]

What happened to the new route announcement or have I completely missed it ?

[mytravela330]

The last time Menzies did TCX they made a right hash of it....

[The96er]

The last time Menzies did TCX they made a right hash of it....

Let me explain airline handling contract negotiations:

Airline: "Will you be prepared to do handle us for less money than what we're paying now with our current handling agent"

Handling agent: "errrrrrrm - yep"

Airline: "We want many more bells and whistles"

Handling agent: " We'll promise you everything you so desire"

Airline: "You win the contract" :ok:

[Hangar6]

Add.

Can we the airline assign the delay codes and any delay code we assign to you our handling agent means you give us money,

Agent errrr yes sahib

Can we give you ludicrous turnaround time?
Etc etc

[spannersatcx]

Any news on any rumours of airlines moving handling agent? I've heard TCX to Menzies don't know how true this is.

Any news on CX?

Ty

any news on CX regarding what?

[kjsharg]

Handling?

I know they self handle in LHR would be good if they did in manchester but doubt it as it's starting at 4x weekly?

Everything in T2 at the moment is swissport would be nice to see another handling agent over there

[mytravela330]

The96er i know how they negotiations work especialy at Menzies as i use to work for them, i spent 10 years at MAN first with RHS then Globe Ground/Servisair and then Menzies......

[spannersatcx]

Handling?

I know they self handle in LHR would be good if they did in manchester but doubt it as it's starting at 4x weekly?

Everything in T2 at the moment is swissport would be nice to see another handling agent over there

I presume you are talking pax services/check in, to my knowledge there will be 1 airport manager 1 manager on duty and 1 PSO (they are the advertised (positions), the check in staff will be contracted, no idea who.

[LAX_LHR]

Vueling look to be adding MAN-BCN, as the option has appeared on the vueling site in the past few hours, but no flights bookable yet.

Given no footy fixtures have been announced, we can discount any charter flights for that.

Looks like the BCN route is about to get busy! I suppose with Ryanair, Monarch and Jet2 flying into one of Vuelings main bases, it was only a matter of time before they reacted.

[EI-BUD]

'Manchester International' has been in the Vueling booking engine for over a week but no schedules were there ...

[LAX_LHR]

Ah, I looked yesterday for a Cardiff flight and MAN was not avilable then?

Still, could be interesting as its only been added recently and there are no football charters due, which is why they have used MAN in the past.

The fact it is down as 'Manchester International Airport' rather than just 'Manchester' like their other destinations signifies that the MAN addition is still a work in progress.

[kieb92]

Hopefully fingers crossed for Vueling as hopefully they may expand further like they have done at Cardiff to places such as Florence, Rome etc where they have bases.

Also looks like Norwegian may be looking at long haul from Dublin to Bangkok:

Norwegian's Irish subsidiary mulls Dublin - Bangkok in 2015 - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/29167-norwegians-irish-subsidiary-mulls-dublin-bangkok-in-2015)

[kjsharg]

Thats fab, how would I go about applying for PSO? Will it be done through the recruitment place same as LHR or direct through Cathay?

Any idea when recruitment will start?

Many thanks again!

[Bagso]

As there has not exactly been a deluge of comment /information from Turtle Towers.....

I think Lax suggested catchment area of Manchester is larger than Dublin therefore would the proposed Ethiopian service to Los Angeles via Dublin have have not been a market that MAG would have chased, (...maybe they did) ?

Same applies to Bangkok re Norwegian !

Don't wish to be greedy but "if" there is the merest hint they might work Ex Dublin surely they would be a banker for Manchester ?

Should somebody get on the phones before deals are finalised or is that too radical ?

Re Rouge given the large number of flights into LHR via Air Canada , is it possible some pax were given the oprion of rtg direct?

On a theme did anybody actually see any marketing of this service last 4 months ? Apparently it was extensive !

Loads on Facebook/twitter re launch last week BUT personally I didn't see anything in that crucial pre booking stage prior to start up.

Did this and others not need same momentum as Cathay ?

The tedium is alive and well....

[MAN777]

Heres something to break the tedium

This weekends fly-in in relation to the below event. All aircraft parking next to the Runway visitor park.

TAS Festival (http://www.tasmanchester.com/TAS_Festival.html)


MANCHESTER AIRPORT AVIATION and TRANSPORT FESTIVAL & No. 613 SQUADRON 75TH ANNIVERSARY EVENT
Saturday 5th July - all times Local

(1300) (Spitfire replica)
1300 Luscombe Silvair
1315 Cessna Airmaster
1330 Miles Gemini
1345 DH Chipmunk
1400 Moraine-Saulnier MS.317

Up to 20 different hot air balloons will be tethered in the rear field of the RVP 09.00hrs - 17.00hrs on Saturday and Sunday.

Sunday 6th July – all times Local

(1300) (Spitfire replica)
1300 Feisler Storch
1315 Stearman
1330 DH Tiger Moth
1345 Jungmann pair
1430 Dakota multiple flypast

[LAX_LHR]

I think Lax suggested catchment area of Manchester is larger than Dublin therefore would the proposed Ethiopian service to Los Angeles via Dublin have have not been a market that MAG would have chased


Bagso,

I don't think we can begrudge DUB of this Ethiopian service. The ADD-LAX flight is a long one, and has to stop somewhere. So, as DUB has pre-clearance, why not stop there? May as well get the customs formalities out of the way while the aircraft is sat there being re-filled, so market size aside, DUB makes sense for this one.

[j636]

Would be surprised if O&D between MAN and LAX is larger than DUB. Anybody have MAN estimates?

[BasilBush]

I believe MAG's estimate of the O&D demand between MAN and LAX is around 80,000. I think this uses a 2 hour drive time as the definition of MAN's catchment.

[All names taken]

Out to DUS with Lufthansa yesterday morning. How long has this been on the A319?

Also watching the activity on the apron around 7.15 or so, the place was incredibly busy and in my opinion, the issues around the airfield layout were truly exposed. I can't imagine what pilots must think - it must be one of the most difficult aprons to negotiate around in Europe.

[LAX_LHR]

All names taken,

MAN-DUS is seeing a fair few A319's and A320's all summer on various flights. Family member got an A320 on Sunday evening.

[kieb92]

TS-IEG Syphax A319 on approach operating as TAP324 from Lisbon! Odd combination.

[Skipness One Echo]

@LAX_LHR any word on the new long haul route you had the inside information on?
Handling in place, Midlands link etc etc ? Keen to know more. Do we have a start date?

[spannersatcx]

Thats fab, how would I go about applying for PSO? Will it be done through the recruitment place same as LHR or direct through Cathay?

Any idea when recruitment will start?

Many thanks again!

Internal recruitment has already started, not external as yet.

[j636]

I believe MAG's estimate of the O&D demand between MAN and LAX is around 80,000. I think this uses a 2 hour drive time as the definition of MAN's catchment.

Thanks BB.

Both more less the same.

[MANFOD]

Re. MAN-LAX

We were given some figures at a meeting I attended last year of unserved and underserved routes from MAN. These included pax who flew from/to MAN via another hub and those who didn't use MAN but were from within the 2 hour catchment criteria. The latter were classsified as leakage to London airports, so may not have included pax from say LBA going via AMS or say from BHX via DUB.

Afraid I don't recall the actual numbers but what was rather surprising, to me at least, was that SFO was about 5th in the list of unserved and underserved routes and LAX didn't make the top 10. New York was the highest followed by Bangkok and Hong Kong I think.

Of course, the 2 hour catchment is a bit misleading as passengers within that area from the Midlands may well prefer to fly from LHR to New York for example with the vast frequency of flights and choice of airlines.

[BasilBush]

Manfod

Yes, I've also seen that chart. And it does include passengers going on indirect routings such as LBA-AMS-XXX.

As you say, SFO has much higher O&D demand than LAX. I suppose that LAX also suffers from it not really being on the way to anywhere, limiting ongoing connections. There is Hawaii and, at a push, Australasia (but lots of competition to Oz/NZ). So I wouldn't put it high on the list of potential new routes ex-MAN.

I agree with your comments about the crudeness of defining catchment on the basis of 2-hr drivetime. You really need to factor in competition. You'd have to be a serious LHR-hater (or MAN-lover) to choose to travel from, say, Warwick to MAN to pick up a once-daily (or less) service to, say, LAX, as opposed to the multiple dailies out of LHR.

[Bagso]

But hang on this isnt a daily 777 to LAX !

With a transit flight we are only talking 75-100 seats twice a week tops are we not ?

Stick a flight on to Los Angeles at cheapish rates and even though Ethiopian are not exactly a household name I suspect most punters would not have a clue who they are flying with or care even less.

And are there no opportunities Eastbound where there is bound to be a modicum of interest.

I revert to original question would we not be better placed than DUB, given this formula that said I do accept pre clearance is a major bonus.

ON this basis , if precleareance is a deal maker, does that not also kill any chance of a thru MEB flight as well ?

[crewmeal]

Stick a flight on to Los Angeles at cheapish rates and even though Ethiopian are not exactly a household name I suspect most punters would not have a clue who they are flying with or care even less.

Until they find out it is a dry airline. Most won't be too bothered who the carrier is on short haul/sunshine routes, but I believe being stuck on an 11 hour flight to the West Coast of the USA then the carrier becomes more important.

Having said that there seems to be so much anti BA feeling elsewhere on this forum from Passenger's experiences that carriers flying in and out of the regions will do well. Good luck MAN in promoting LAX/SFO which ever carrier decides to start up.

[GrahamK]

Until they find out it is a dry airline.

Not so bad if flying from MAN, but a dry airline from DUB? Absolutele madness! :}:ouch:

[Betablockeruk]

a dry airline from DUB? Absolutele madness!

Lots of diversions to Shannon to unload 'unruly passengers' then.


Father Jack :}

[LAX_LHR]

Another B767 on the Charlotte flight today.

[LAX_LHR]

Regarding Vueling.

Interesting to note, 'Manchester International Airport' has now been changed to 'Manchester', in line with how their other destinations are listed.

Definitely something going on......

[Skipness One Echo]

Any more on that new long haul route? The one where handling is in place? The Midlands link etc etc?

[BasilBush]

Skipness you are a very wicked man.......:O

Seriously though, this thread would be a lot better without these regular feuds. Time for a truce?

[LAX_LHR]

Re: Recent discussion about a new long-haul route from Manchester
Westbound.

Can I suggest Norwegian Air to LAX......


Ive just seen on another forum that 'rumours are gathering pace regarding Norwegian and long haul' for MAN, but, given rumours of a B737 base never materialised, and now this, I don't buy Norwegian long haul rumours just yet.

Would love to be proven wrong if it means getting an LAX link, however.

[DomyDom]

It would be interesting to know if there are any further developments regarding the new long haul route. If anyone has any inside information it would be interesting to know. Thanks. DomyDom

[LN-KGL]

Let's change the wording from rumours to wishes and it would be more correct. Norwegian Air Shuttle has now 7 Dreamliners in their fleet, and the 8th and last on order 787-8 will first be delivered in April next year. The four first of the 9 x 787-9 on order will be delivered in 2016 and it is when these are delivered you can find capacity for European cities like BCN, BER, EDI, GOT, MAD, MAN, NCE, ... or expand at existing European airports.

[LAX_LHR]

To keep the Vueling momentum going, Manchester now makes the destinations page, with 'flights from 29.99':

Destinos (http://www.vueling.com/en/cities/cheap-flights-to-manchester)

January 2015 seems to be the month they start, but still nothing bookable yet.

[Bagso]

Has anybody else had the .......

"book now for summer with ROUGE to Toronto email " ?

Its 7 weeks to September, this should have been issued Jan - to April :ugh:

Whilst it "may" pick up some late passengers and a number who have perhaps come across it accidentally via "ticket portals and Air Canada booking engines a good marketing campaign highlighting Toronto as a destination where both Rouge AND Transat BOTH benefit would have seen even higher loads.

As usual i'm utterly perplexed. It "may" have gone in SPAM but this is the first marketing I have seen personally.

Were there some taxis in Manchester with advertising ? I seem to recall there was, but like the Saudi billboards in Birmingham this is a narrow demographic, are we not told by MAG that Manchester has a much larger catchment area ?

If the route development team did have some initial input in persuading ROUGE to come to MAN surely they must feel somewhat letdown with both this service and others regarding subsequent impetus.

I have no idea if flights are doing OK or not but with a healthy dose of marketing they would clearly have done much better.

Is there a strategy /timeline, at times this is so frustrating we seem to "get by" despite ourselves.

What would loads be like if potential passengers actually new about these routes ?

[DomyDom]

LAX_LHR,
It interesting that it looks like Vueling are about to start BCN from MAN from Jan 2015. It will also be interesting to see if they have any other routes in the pipeline. I see they have started SQV from CWL and I would have thought that would be a good fit for MAN alongside say MAD. Definitely one to watch.
DomyDom

[BasilBush]

Yes Bagso, I got that email a day or two ago. And I had the same thoughts as you... And it also went into my Spam folder. Not good, really.

Incidentally, a couple of months ago my brother was researching flights to Canada, and Rouge were wildly uncompetitive. Either they are misjudging the market or they are able to earn a premium against competitors.

[MANFOD]

Re Rouge, there was a heck of a queue the other day at T1 lower level check-in and there were still some pax waiting at scheduled departure time. It's suggested elsewhere that there have been problems with their system, hardly an ideal start. The flight left over 2 hours late I understand.

Reports on another forum indicated the first two inbound loads were high but outbound only about half full as I recall. If the length of the queue Monday was anything to go by, then that load was better.

Out of interest, how are tickets mainly being sold - on-line, direct with the airline, through travel agents or internet booking companies?

[kieb92]

AA55 departed at 10.38am and is now diverting to Dublin. Landing overweight at Dublin in 10 mins

[Fernanjet]

AA55 departed at 10.38am and is now diverting to Dublin. Landing overweight at Dublin in 10 mins




at least they can do their US clearance!!

[ETOPS]

Ah the perils of FR24 :eek: Dropped a relative off at MAN this morning to catch this flight and then, at home, looked at track to see if was on time - only to watch the "sudden plunge" ;) into DUB.

If we are going to have a guessing game as to why I'm going for medical...

[EI-A330-300]

If we are going to have a guessing game as to why I'm going for medical...

Engine Bleed

[ETOPS]

Bleed

So I was right :ok:

IGMC....:rolleyes:

[Suzeman]

AAL 55 departed DUB again about 20 mins ago c 1615 - got about 30 miles to the North and is returning to DUB again

[MANFOD]

JUNE Stats are out early.

Pretty good results:

Terminal pax for month up 5.79% (including transits 5.59%)
with
Domestic up 10.6%

Sch Intl. up 12.37%

Charter down 11.94%

Moving annual total for Terminal pax is now 21,218,973 ( up 5.42%)
Including transits 21,329,389 ( 5.13%)

Freight though was down 8.12%

[nigel osborne]

MANFOD,

Good increases in Sced and domestic, but another fall in freight, is this one due to CX pulling off cargo flights ?

If so hopefully will get some of this back when they can carry belly cargo in the 77W hold when it starts.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Anybody any idea who shredded a tyre on T/O from 23L about 0845 this morning? Only ask as I was sitting No1 @ Tango1 whilst they were sweeping the runway

[MANFOD]

Re the drop in freight in June, I guess CX was the main factor Nigel, although I think the flights were already on an ad hoc basis before they finally finished near the end of May. Not all that many years ago, we sometimes had 3 x B747 freighters on the ground at the same time.

MAN's record year for cargo carried was 2007 when it was 165,000 tonnes, the record for pax numbers being the previous year with 22.42 million.

Passenger-wise, things are going very well at present and if growth were to continue at 4-5% then 2015 calendar year could be a record for MAN. Of course, much could happen in the meantime be it terrorist alerts, wars, oil price hikes, volcanic eruptions or just economic downturns to change the picture, and as we know some airlines have issued profit warnings or talked about a soft market for this summer's bookings. Still, there are those rumours of new long haul routes for MAN to be announced with CX and the TCX routes to the US already confirmed so let's hope the upward trend continues. Other UK airports such as LGW and BHX have also been performing well.

[Mr A Tis]

Tuesday was little better. Only 3 serviceable check in desks. Meaning Premium Rouge was merged with bag drop. Only 3 prem rouge pax, took 45 minutes to check in. Baggage check not given. Although aircraft arrived at MAN on time, took off 45 minutes late due to slow bag loading. Meaning a 2hr 15 min turn round. Prem rouge not pre boarded either. AC + Swissport need to get the product sorted if they come back next year. I paid twice the economy fare and got nothing extra on the ground for it.

[TURIN]

Anybody any idea who shredded a tyre on T/O from 23L about 0845 this morning? Only ask as I was sitting No1 @ Tango1 whilst they were sweeping the runway

Rumour of a Thomson 737 damaged tyre and flaps on landing. A LH 320 then took off and sustained damage from the debris.

Lots of red faces. :O

[Bagso]

Ouch.......

M E N leading the charge again !

"Holidaymakers queue outside terminal at airport"

Queues out the door at Manchester airport | Granada - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/granada/update/2014-07-04/queues-out-the-door-at-manchester-airport/)

An airport spokesman was quick to play down that it was anything to do with increased security adding

"it was just a typical day in the holiday season"

bloody hell...... well that's ok then !

Rightly or indeed wrongly this was a perfect opportunity to place cause and effect somewhere else, utterly lost with the blame heaped firmly back into the airports lap.

Is the "PR" outsourced do we know ?

Does anybody from the airport actually work in communications and spin ?


"yes over here"
"blame us",
"totally our fault"

[MANFOD]

Actually Bagso, I'm not sure it would be beneficial to redirect blame onto the extra security measures. That would still raise questions as to why MAN was effected if other airports were not. Yesterday's reports suggested there were longer queues at MAN while other airports including LHR & LGW were operating normally.

However, some additional facts in today's report might have been helpful, such as:

Were all security lanes staffed when the queues extended outside the terminal?

How long did the problem last - was it 05.00 to 07.00 or what?

How many security lanes and machines are there in T1?

Mind you, if the answer to the first question is "no", that begs the question "why not?"

I do agree though it wasn't great PR and if passengers are alleging it took them nearly 2 hours to get through security it's somewhat meaningless advising folk to arrive 2 hours before departure. Some comment as to why it was exceptional or what steps were being taken to improve matters for the rest of the summer were needed rather than implying "look how busy we are, isn't it great"!

[MKY661]

I had long Queues out the door in Terminal 1 back in October 2011, so This is definitely not the first time it's occurred :)

[AldiAl]

Just a bit of info...wife's friend went out on this on Good Friday, returning some 5 weeks later. She says it was 90% full on both legs!
She was off to South Africa and a previous poster on here said they had good African connections. She found it cheap, too.


I appreciate that this is just a quick snapshot but hope this route stays.


Anybody else heard how they're doing?

[Bagso]

I take your point MANFOD was just underwhelmed by the phraseology in the PR statement !

There may well be faults but was there really any need to issue such a bland statement.

"Yes it's our fault" and sorry "it's summer that's how things are up here".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Make no apologies for lifting this from the DUB thread re Ethiopian.

The DAA (Dublin Airport Authority) has gone out to several airlines and ET is not the only one to have been approached, just the first one that seems to have bitten.

The DAA would not have made these approaches if the govt were going to obstruct it - and the govt's policy is to encourage fifth freedom rights; the new aviation policy will enshrine this as policy - and a good thing too. If EI doesn't fly the route, it can't act as "dog in the manger". I can't see US carriers being too pushed, as no US carriers has sought to fly LAX-DUB.

There are still quite a few cities to which we don't yet have a link and I'm sure the govt would encourage the DAA to tout for routes and if fifth freedom rights work as the bait to reel them in, then let them do it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes, yes, yes, I know they have pre clearance

....AND doubtless there will be objections from other airlines.

BUT look at the creativity of thinking, the gist of this is "we don' t have a service so we are going to look at options and hunt down the traffic".

They are seemingly looking at their location and airlines that are routing over the top from A To B.

In addition they do not seem too bothered about tip toeing around their current customers !

....NOT only that the Government changed aviation policy to promote growth at Dublin recognizing it as a major player !

We are getting lots of weasel words from our political parties about "rebalancing The North" but little action, Manchester is staring them in the face, but both Tory and Labour seem oblivious , would it not be be refreshing if we had same creativity of thinking on airport policy?

In the meantime lets hope MAG are ALSO hunting down such opportunities !

Lets also hope our Government are also helping them, despite "appearing" somewhat mute on aviation policy other than increasing taxes OR runways !

[Skipness One Echo]

Bagso can you list your top three quick wins that you honestly and relaistically think can be accomplished with focus and determination?
1)
2)
3)

[Bagso]

SKIPPY

1) Transport spending:
£2731 per head in London
£134 per head in the North West

2) 12 out of top 20 major infrastructure projects involving public funding benefit only London and the South East compare this with just 5 of the top 20 in the North.

3) Main Tourism site, centrally funded but almost exclusively the preserve of ....er London.

Will that do for focus, determination and how about this......"FAIRNESS"

[Skipness One Echo]

Cool thanks, you got a link to the source for those numbers please?

[Bagso]

IPPR Think Tank for Northern values

...next question

you usually have one !

[BasilBush]

Can I add a follow up question, please?

The comparison of transport spending is very striking. But as always with statistics (damned lies...) it's important to understand the reason for the difference. I wonder how much of the huge figure for the London area is related to the one-off impact of the vastly expensive Crossrail project.

However, my main question for Bagso and others is to identify which specific transport projects might be favoured in the Northwest, and which are currently being denied funding. My general impression is that in recent years funding has generally been provided for schemes such as Metrolink expansion, A555, various rail schemes etc.

It's one thing to point out the huge imbalance in spending, but surely the real issue is to identify those projects in our region that are currently being denied funding. And then go after those responsible....

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

I've often seen it alleged by our home counties brethren visiting this thread that we Mancs "hate" BA or harbour unreasonable bias against that company. I have always responded that I consider it illogical to "hate" BA … I simply find them quite irrelevant to my travel needs as on most journeys from MAN a risky and stressful LHR transit is a requirement.

However, today I was making plans for a trip to London itself and it seemed logical to consider BA for the gig … especially having afew unredeemed 'Avios' in the bank.

Here is the deal. For MAN-LHR-MAN you use 9000 Avios and must pay 'taxes and charges' (that much-abused nebulous concept).

How did that work out for me? Well …

Option 1: 9000 Avios plus 'Taxes and Charges' of GBP109.65.

Yes, that's correct. GBP109.65 in add-ons for a BA MAN-LHR return. Awesome!!!

Well obviously, I had to try the same flights via the standard BA.com booking engine. Result:

Option 2: Return Fare via BA.com GBP113.65

So, in exchange for my lovingly-accumulated 9000 Avios I'm offered a princely saving of exactly FOUR POUNDS! To put that in context, you have to convert GBP15.00 of Tesco vouchers to even reach 9000 Avios in the first place! Some deal that is. Is it unreasonable to expect slightly more than that for our loyalty?

Time to check Option 3. Virgin Little Red, same dates similar flight times.

Price: GBP95.96 … and no loyalty points burned off.

So I'm passing up BA's enticing offer yet again. Not because I "hate" them. But because not only are they irrelevant to my travel plans to points beyond London, they're not even competitive traveling TO London anymore!

As for that loyalty points scheme … what does it take for the 'serious fraud' bods to take a look?!!! It's back to money off Tesco groceries for me!

[cumbrianboy]

Really?

I often use my avios and book reward flights LON-MAN return, 9000 avios and £30 in taxes.

Seem a pretty good deal to me, and every time I have looked at little Red, they are always more expensive than BA …

[BasilBush]

That seems odd, Shed. BA's Reward Flight Saver deals are very good. You should have been charged only £35 in cash, plus the 9k Avios. The only criterion for eligibility for the reward flight saver is that you have generated 1 (yes 1) Avios in the last 12 months.

Maybe your Avios account has been inactive? Worth checking with BA anyway, as these RFS deals are one of the best uses of Avios at the moment.

[Ametyst1]

The Avios must have expired.

I have just booked two Avios flights one MAN-LHR-MAN for 9000 Avios plus £35, and the other is

MAN-LHR-FRA & v.v also for 9000 Avios plus £35.

You would only be quoted full taxes if you have not collected a single Avios point in the last 12months.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

All very curious. The Avios show up as present in the account. I'm also receiving ads from BA telling me I've earned enough points for a short-haul business class trip. And why would the fare come up as four pounds different rather than the same if the Avios were ignored completely? I'll give them another try some time, but this booking has already migrated elsewhere. Thanks for the feedback.

[Manchester Kurt]

£8bn currently being spent replacing the entire tube train stock - with no negative media coverage from the London based media.


Railways across the north are full, no spare capacity into Manc from the south or Liverpool port from the east.


There is clearly a huge disparity on infrastructure investment whereby funds are waved through for London but have to meet all sorts of criteria in the north.

[EI-BUD]

Hi Shed,
I may be wrong but to qualify for reward saver fare of £35, you must have have had activity on your exec club in last12 months. Ie booked something using avios . Equally , the account must be12 months old.

I sometimes use my points and book one way BHD to DUB ( yes I know sounds mad) and it asks would you like to make a stopover, I say yes for london eg 3 days and continue my journey = 4500 avios and £17.50. Technically 2 for 1. Excellent . Same may be possible say edi to GLA but you'd need to check.

[Bagso]

my main question for Bagso and others is to identify which specific transport projects might be favoured in the Northwest, and which are currently being denied funding.

Gosh , where do you want to start.....

It isn't necessarily specific transport projects but uplifting the whole region by which prosperity and GDP would increase which in turn will increase use of the airport.

BUT as Manchester Kurt states London funding is ringfenced , the tube trains need replacing and it simply gets waived thru....what are our MPs actually there for ? We had the recent debacle where rolling stock "up here" was inexplicably shifted "down there" without so much as a whimper from the Honorable members !

When there is a consensus MPs seem to then back the wrong horse.

HS2 is a case in point, muddled thinking and totally disproportionate investment.

We need a counterweight to London NOT something that sucks even more demand into the South East. I have said before if you are going to build an HS2 station in Hale that gets you into Heathrow in an hour what will then be the point of Manchester or indeed Birmingham airports ?

.... you may as well hop on a train to catch a train to LHR giving you a wealth of options than risk missing a service which is more likely to be in the singular from MAN or non existent from BHX !

And yet to a man everyone seems to think this is the answer !

HS2 "appears" to be the only idea in town , major capital project which MPs actually think may make a difference, personally I would get across some of the Norths big thinkers Bernstein, Prof Brian Cox, and hire in Evan Davies to push forward ideas, now that that would be a plan !

We are getting RW3 rammed down our throat in terms of its prosperity to the UKPlc why do we not get the same impetus with say Airport City ?

Investment in Heathrow is apparently good for the Country but investment in Airport City "appears" to be only good for Gtr Manchester !

A topical example at the moment when the Tour De France was in London few years back "this was great for the Country" , now its in Yorkshire it seems to be great for well , just Yorkshire !

It's going out to 160 Countries, is it not showcasing "The UK" ?
Will the legacy of images of great scenery pull in tourists to "The UK"

Maybe that is the issue in terms of our consciousness, investment in the regions is seen as only good for that region, investment in London however is touted as being for the greater good of the Country as a whole.

With regard tourism, potential tourists who have been given an insight into the delights of our scenery outside London "might" be tempted to use a short haul gateway such as LBA and a major long haul entry point located less than an hour away such as MAN, but that is the trick, joined up thinking between all relevant agencies "in The North" be that Airports, Tourism Agencies, Accommodation etc.

[BasilBush]

Hi Kurt

I don't want to be seen as defending investment in the London area- that's not really my point. But the example you refer to certainly doesn't fall into the category of being "waved through". The last time I used the Victoria Line I noticed the new trains, but then I realised that these were replacing the original 1967 trains. Renewal of near 50-yr old rolling stock shouldn't be too surprising. And a lot of the trains are even older - I may be showing my age but I remember that it wasn't all that long ago that the 1930s era Bakerloo Line trains were still around!

You talk about the capacity limits on rail lines to the south of Manchester. But isn't this precisely the justification for HS2 - that there is no capacity for growth on the WCML? And if there's an example of investment being waved through it has to be HS2, which struggles to meet the economic criteria that are applied to all other rail projects. As for Liverpool, I don't know if there are any proposals to deal with this, but if there aren't then the criticism needs to be levelled at the regional transport bodies, rather than blaming the Westminster mafia. Osborne's recent statements suggest that improvements to East-West links in our region are a priority.

Please don't think I'm taking sides in a North v South debate - I was born and bred here and now live in the region again after some time in the evil South. But what frustrates me is when people focus on the issue of "fairness" without being explicit as to what they actually want for our region. Like Bagso I was very disappointed that MAG's submission to the Davies Commission was long on rhetoric but sadly lacking in concrete proposals. A timid and unrealistic proposal on APD, modest tweaks to route licensing, and a bit more surface access investment (much of which has now been approved). That was about the sum total of MAG's message - they really could have been more ambitious. Instead, the submission came across as a corporate whinge, rather than a constructive set of proposals aimed at cementing MAN's role as the pre-eminent airport outside London.

[BasilBush]

Good to hear from you as always, Bagso.

I think we agree on the obsession with HS2! A very expensive vanity project that will just increase the concentration on the South East. We should learn from France, where the vast TGV network has only reinforced the dominance of Paris.

You suggest including Bernstein in coming up with alternatives. But he's part of the HS2 mafia, I'm afraid, throwing Manchester's support behind that misguided project. Perhaps Osborne's focus on regional rail links is a better approach (pause for well-aimed kicks)!

I'm not sure I agree with you about the downplaying of the importance of Airport City and the Tour de France. Both seem to be being pushed at a National level.

Again, I think our focus needs to be on making specific and constructive proposals for our region, rather than an unproductive moan about how much money is being spent down South.

[AndyH52]

BasilBrush, until the funding for major transport schemes is properly devolved to local bodies then the buck generally does stop with DfT in London. They are the ones (along with Treasury) who set the rules in terms of project eligibility and financial appraisal. As a result projects are generally assessed on a 'competitive' basis against projects from other regions plus London. Projects in the south east always come out way ahead in any assessment as there are so many more people down there and the per capita costs therefore so much lower.

The scales are weighted against us...

[BasilBush]

Thanks AndyH52 - that's helpful. But I repeat my original question - which specific transport/infrastructure projects are being held up by Treasury/DfT? I'm not aware of any major ones in our region, but I'm not all that close to the issue.

I'm certainly not seeking to be a cheerleader for Whitehall, just trying to find out which projects are facing a stone wall. As far as I can see, every single one of the transport infrastructure projects that MAG identified in its Davies submission has been approved by Whitehall, so I'm genuinely puzzled by Bagso's concern in this particular area.

[LN-KGL]

For Manchester there one project that need sorted out ASAP and it is Manchester Piccadilly station. It is utterly chaotic during my visit mid day in July last year. Responsible for the rail network and its stations is Network Rail and its subsidiary Network Rail Infrastructure, statutory corporations that will be reclassified this year to government bodies. In other word the Government and the Parliament will from this year be in full control of Network Rail's £140bn net debt and the quality of the rail network in Great Britain (except the London Underground network - it's Boris' domain).

More about the Railways Act 2005 here:
Railways Act 2005 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/14/contents)

[BasilBush]

Kurt you are absolutely right. But again there are plans for a major redevelopment, linked to HS2. Clearly the work is needed irrespective of HS2.

See http://www.manchester.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/21210/hs2_piccadilly_regeneration_framework_aug_2013

[750XL]

RE Egyptair:

While the service isn't great, and neither is Cairo airport, they offer some great connections and pretty decent prices. Average loadfactor is about 60-80 pax, sometimes busier during Umrah/Hajj periods :ok:

Shame they're pulling out after the summer though!

[Manchester Kurt]

Basil - you ask for infrastructure that is delayed - well, Metrolink was by about a decade, that is only just happening now that we are paying for it locally.


Add to that electrification of the railway around Manchester, only a small proportion is currently being electrified.


Add rail capacity into the south of the region - there is none.


Then we can get to roads - how is the Manchester to Sheffield motorway coming along? 40 years of waiting for funding and still getting no where.


So yes, there are loads of infrastructure investment that we need in the north, investment that has been asked for over many decades that is never ever forthcoming.


You miss the important point that developing business plans for these schemes is hugely expensive, there are no such plans on the board, developed by norther authorities to develop a HS3 to Leeds etc because the cost would effectively be wasted - the chances of getting the money miniscule - just wasting valuable local money.

[LN-KGL]

But BasilBush, HS2 is 19 years away - Manchester and MAN needs something done to Piccadilly yesterday.


The MAN Master Plan specifies the public transport share to be between 25% and 28% dependent on if the tram will be open to MAN in 2015. Below is a graph showing how well the different passenger groups are doing it, and now doubt they have difficulties with the locals (source: CAA yearly surveys 2000-2012).


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23931688/Graphs/Manchester/PTS_2000-2012_2015.jpg


But if we return to rail transport vs private transport, rail loses always on time except if you live in one of neighbouring houses to Piccadilly station. I have looked at 24 towns and cities within this magic 2 hour driving distance to MAN, and it is very clear - today's train franchises are not suitable to bind together counties. As an example: It takes 38 minutes to drive to Chester from MAN, but if you want to use the train it takes at least 1 hour 29 minutes included one train change. MAN is better connected to Yorkshire if we look at differences between train and car. The five destinations with the smallest difference in my comparison were Huddersfield, Sheffield, Doncaster, York and Leeds - all with less than 15 minutes more using the train, but all these trains have to visit Piccadilly station before continuing to MAN.

[BasilBush]

ManchesterKurt and LN-KGL

I don't disagree with you on the need for more investment. What I find odd, however, is that none of the schemes you refer to were mentioned by MAG in its Davies Commission submissions, as far as I can see. If there is a desire to see these schemes funded, then surely it's a major missed opportunity on MAG's part. Especially as there currently seems to be a rare cross-party consensus on the need for major infrastructure investment in the region.

And I agree that the excessive focus on HS2 is distracting attention from the need for other, more urgent solutions. But I'm afraid that MAG, Bernstein and others are in thrall to HS2 when they ought to be focussing on more immediate issues.

[Bagso]

Sorry to derail the interesting chat on rail , such topics are very compelling when news is thin and doubtless will return, but now we are back on piste so to speak, well and truly !

Egyptair

...well "if true" that's a sting in the tail but not unexpected !

AND at risk of being a bore , sorry I told you so !

Fragmented , scatter gun , sparse enthusiasm in marketing about new routes seemingly resulting in same old , same old 18 months on !

The Manchester Epitaph ;

"Here lies an airport unquestionably brilliant at gaining new routes, utterly abysmal at making any attempt to actually retain them"!

And therein lies the rub, if we try and fail fine, no argument, we can at least put it down to finite demand but at least bloody well try !

Social media

AGAIN , Lots of focus, nay backslapping about Cathay whilst core airlines/routes already in situ are allowed to wither on the vine !

Lots of endless chit chat on MAN social media about cheap parking, er' no good if the 80 passengers 5 X a week are not there in the first place.

Lots of endless chit chat on social media on about "cheap breakfast vouchers", again no good if the 80 passengers 5 X a week are not there in the first place.

Nothing about our network once a route starts.

Always lots of huff and puff on launch day (and of course following the 1980 template, a bit of standard PR to the M E N), but then it never sees the light of day again well not unless its Chinese !

There is barely a mention of current services !

SOCIAL MEDIA ADVERTISING IS FREE FOR GOODNESS SAKE !

When will somebody at MAG, Account Management/ Marketing actually wake up to the fact its 2014 re publicity !

Either personnel or an agency should be accountable and measured for publicity and performance, especially on new "thin" routes, at the very least have a strategy in place to give them a leg up until established ?

I do appreciate Egypt is volatile and has its issues, but the mere fact that up to 80 passengers at a time have been using it without a shred of promotion is
surely an indicator that there could have been potential to retain ?

AND lets not start lining up excuses...

"its because SAUDIA have started etc "

The fact is there has been barely a mention that the route exists, no publicity , no marketing activity , no mention of connections, no promotion English or Arabic etc.

Does somebody at board level not look at this failing strategy and think "hang on" ?

Does nobody have any vision of what to do or any passion to at least having a damn good go ?

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Further public transport projects urgently required in this region:

1) A large single-location comprehensive BUS STATION for Central Manchester. Terminating buses are currently strewn on side-streets all around the city centre. Bus stations such as Shudehill serve only a minority of routes. Bus operations at present around Piccadilly and on areas such as Oldham St. / Lever St. are dangerous to pedestrians. Connection locations are random and baffling to visitors. Manchester has to be one of the worst cities in the UK from a bus transfer point of view. I would dearly love to see a large public transport interchange project for local bus (ALL routes), Metro, coach (National Express etc.) and rail travel made a top priority in Central Manchester.

2) Rail Rolling Stock - Replacement of old units (Pacers etc) urgently required. Capacity enhancement urgently required. Example: the two-carriage Class 158 trains which operate Liverpool - Manchester - Sheffield - Nottingham - Norwich. Demand is controlled by ultra-high tariffs … I was recently quoted GBP184 return Manchester - Norwich on this (two weeks in advance), but GBP55.50 if routing Manchester - Euston / Liverpool St - Norwich. Crazy difference … the London route it had to be. Lots of similar regional routes with demand artificially repressed by tariff management.

3) East-West Rail Line Capacity - Recent enhancements to enable 5 fast services per hour Manchester-Leeds (via Huddersfield) have by necessity squeezed local stopping services using the same track. Local commuter communities deeply unimpressed. Funding not approved for re-opening the existing but mothballed (original) Stanedge Tunnel bores which would significantly increase capacity on this constrained stretch. In the long term, a four track corridor should be the aim (unless "HS3" finds an alternative less curvy route to use).

Other projects mentioned on the thread also important … I'm just not repeating what has already been covered. There is massive potential for putting more equitable transport funding to very constructive use in this region. Our airports need to be at the heart of a northern transport regeneration effort.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

EgyptAir: I can't confirm whether MAN is losing this service or not. However, it has been subject to similar withdrawal scares in the past as the change of season approaches. Isn't it on some 'rolling renewal' temporary licence which tends to get the nod very late in the day?

[Fairdealfrank]

Further public transport projects urgently required in this region:


Shed, you mentioned HS3, you forgot to mention the need to build it now, before the much flawed and potentially disasterous (as presently constituted) HS2.

[Skipness One Echo]

AND at risk of being a bore , sorry I told you so !
Oh it's not a risk anymore believe me ;)
Egypt is in turmoil and in an ongoing state of counter revolution with the military at war with the Muslim Brotherhood. In all fairness Bagso, this one might not be the fault of the Manchester Airport twitter feed!

You should write them a latter bagso, a long letter detailing their faults, what they're doing wrong and your recommendations for taking forward the social media strategy team at MAG. Now I believe someone was talking about the railways?

[Ian Brooks]

They are building platform 4 at MAN so services can be expanded but Chester is a problem as going via Piccadilly is going in the wrong direction
first

Ian.

[LN-KGL]

Ian Brooks, MAN - Chester takes over 2 hours if you change to Arriva Wales at Piccadilly. You have to take Northern Rail to Crewe and change there to Arriva Wales if you want to home in on 1 hour 30 minutes, but since this line only has an hourly departure you may well end up with an arrival at Chester station over two hours later.

[Dairyground]

They are building platform 4 at MAN so services can be expanded but Chester is a problem as going via Piccadilly is going in the wrong direction
first


MAN suffers from a local version of the"everyone wants to go to London" syndrome. With the exception o a few bus routes, all public transport hesds for central Manchester.

Access to Chester and North Wasles (and even Liverpool) could be vastly improved by taking the reail link out to the west, joining the existing Stockport to Chester line somewhere around Altrincham of Hale. To the east, a direct link to Stockport is needed. One possibility would be a chord from the Stockport-Chester line onto the Styal line. Another would be a link from the WCML south of Cheadle Hulme, running alongside the extension of the A555 into the airport that is currently predicted to be built "soon". Combined with reinvigoration of the Stockport to Stalybridge line, either of these schemes could improve acess from Oldham, Tameside and Yorkshire.

[kieb92]

All 3 Thomas Cook 767's to go to Condor permanently the end of summer 2014 - now confirmed:

Thomas Cook Airlines to retire last three B767s this summer - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/29363-thomas-cook-airlines-to-retire-last-three-b767s-this-summer)

[Bagso]

Ah Skippy, was just checking my watch.

Where would we be without a good dose of scepticism from this corner of the forum !

An answer to everything but as ever a solution to nothing !:ok:

I did write to them actually, 2 years ago, and was somewhat staggered to get a reply .

I am not going to qoute the response ver batum but suffice to say it was very positive, they did indicate that the observations were "well founded" and would doubtless be acted upon as a new manager was going to be looking at that whole area in the near future.

To me that was a tacit admission that there we failings but these would be put right.

I do appreciate that Egypt is not exactly a modicum of calm, but that is not really my point, what about Flynas, Rouge or indeed Saudia.

Do all the potential passengers read this forum because from this corner of the UK it seems like that is the only way they will get to know about these services. ......

I thought you were an aviation analyst ?

I enjoy your criticism but just occasionally how about you put forward what your strategy would be I'm sure we would all be interested to hear some ideas, a vision , some creativity !

[Manchester Kurt]

Basil - HS2 shows perfectly how London orientated this nation is.


EVERY single northern chamber of commerce has called for it to happen asap given the critical nature of rail (track) capacity adversely affecting northern areas - see access to south Manc, no new freight paths on the WCML for example.


Evrey single northern authority, other than Wakefield, supports the scheme.


Yet it will not happen for well over a decade and the London based media are doing all they can to disrupt such a critical piece of infrastructure for the north, with southern politicians often on the media telling us they know more about the northern economies than those that do business up here.


HS2 is desperately required, but so are far better rail links east and west, so are far far bette road connections - but whilst we get a fraction of the money spent on us compared to the SE we have to wait decades for anything minimal in terms of improvements.


Basil - I assume you'd support equal funding in the NW compared to the SE whilst we have the issues like ****ty old Pacers providing commuter services, no track capacity on the WCML, regional lines into Manc from south and very slow east / west services?

What is the argument to delay bringing those services up to something like those in the south benefit from by equalling out the spend?

[BasilBush]

I think you have me all wrong ManKurt. I'm firmly supportive of all you identify (except possibly for HS2 where I think the project is far too costly and will draw investment away from more immediate needs, while reinforcing the dominance of London).

My initial point was simply to suggest that it's more productive to identify specific ideas for better surface access, rather than complain generically about a southern bias. I think that you, Bagso and LN-KGL have all done that, so that's all good.

However, the fact that so few of your excellent proposals are currently being pushed by MAG is surely a matter for some concern! The only schemes that MAG appear to be pushing in their Davies submissions are ones that have already got approval, which seems a bit pointless and lacking in vision.

Anyway, enough train spotting for me for the time being so I think I'll draw a line under this one....

[Manchester Kurt]

Ref HS2 - so how do you suggest we create the extra paths into S Manc on the railway, or paths on the WCML for more freight from Trafford Park etc?

Good to see you, like many other southern commentators, believe you know more about the northern economies that EVERY chamber of commerce in the north that believe this is a critical scheme for the regions economy - odd that isn't it?


With regards Manc airport, the connection (due to no paths being available) south to Crewe and beyond are very limited - major investment - see HS2 - is needed to create that extra capacity.


Access from Cheshire into the area on the mid-Cheshire line - that would serve the airport via Baguley / Metrolink - is terrible with local politicians and authorities wanting money to electrify and increase capacity on the line - yet it won't happen.


So yes, there is a huge requirement for investment in the north and HS2 shows exactly the type of reaction we get when any such major investment is planned - it's dismissed, whilst people like yourself provide no alternative options to deliver what is needed other than saying you oppose the scheme.

[MANFOD]

On the wider transport theme, but which is relevant to MAN as others have so eloquently written, is this story in today's M.E.N simply a rehash of old news or confirmation of funding for proposals and schemes which had been approved in principle?

"Greater Manchester secures £476.7m Growth Deal from government"

I imagine that sometimes one has to look for any schemes that are not on the list but which were expected to be.

[Manchester Kurt]

Much of that is new money I think.


The list of schemes have been on the wish-list for some time, now they have confirmed, approved funding.


The biggest improvements from the airport point of view that is happening (in short term - HS2 is the biggest in long term) is the Ordsall curve that adds loads of paths through the city and provides connections to the airport from far and wide (already known though).

Salford Cres is part of that.

[BasilBush]

That's a bit harsh ManchesterKurt. I am supportive of new investment, including capacity enhancement on the WCML. I'm just not (yet) convinced that £50bn is the best value for money. I'm not alone in this - the YouGov survey suggests opponents are in the majority. Curiously, opposition is stronger in the North region than in London. So it can't easily be characterised as a North v South spat. Similar pattern when people are asked whether HS2 will benefit the North - people in London are more likely to believe that it will, as compared with those in the North.

Survey results at http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/hc3n8hendu/YG-Archive-140430-HS2.pdf

I don't know who paid for the survey so (like you) I would be slightly wary of reading too much into it. And you can argue that respondents are ignorant of the facts so we should not treat it too seriously. But that's always the problem in a democracy I suppose!

For the record, although you characterise me as a "Southern commentator" I do in fact live 10 mins from the airport. And I was born and brought up here. My location is only shown as London as I haven't worked out how to change it!

Anyway, I do welcome all of this passionate debate. Pity the passion doesn't always seem to be shared by those in a position to do something about it, such as those at MAG.

[chris789]

Is there any chance this thread could get back on topic, rather than debating HS2 and any other north-west infrastructure topic?

I know it has impact to the success of Manchester Airport, but this topic is straying into a general infrastructure moan.

[BasilBush]

Fine by me Chris

[LAX_LHR]

Easyjet to launch 2 weekly MAN-FNC in February 2015. Flights will be Mondays and Saturdays.

[eggc]

This new long haul announcement...did anyone suggest Norwegian ?

They fit the currently serve MAN clue, and I have seen them and long haul mentioned now on two other forums.

Possibility maybe ?

[LN-KGL]

mickeyman did suggest it in #3353. Today we know the last two holes in the winter schedule have been filled with two weekly CPH-BKK returns. Next opening comes with the delivery of 8th B788 in April 2015. We may be in for a surprise at Farnborough - The Wall Street Journal is talking about an order of 20 more B789.

[Bagso]

Davies belatedly invited responses from "regional airports" to the Commission Enquiry.

Whilst I despise the term and its connotations, has anybody seen any response ?

I appreciate it may be sent under confidential but MAG normally tell the MEN whats going on airport wise !

[BasilBush]

Bagso

I think you can be sure that MAG will be making a submission by the deadline of 25 July (the consultation was launched back in early June). The Commission's website states that "This call for evidence focuses on the domestic and international connectivity provided by regional airports and airports serving London and the south east other than Heathrow and Gatwick, and considers what recommendations the Commission could usefully make to shape this national picture."

This isn't the first time that Davies has requested submissions from "regional airports", but either way it's another opportunity for MAG to state its case.

For those insomniacs out there the Davies document is at https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/318211/utilisation-existing-capacity.pdf

[Betablockeruk]

Flynas website bookings from 1 Aug all via AUH on codeshare EY

Temporary blip or permanent concentration on LGW services?

SV 1-0 XY

[eye2eye5]

LAX LHR where has the EZY capacity come from to facilitate two circa 8 hour operations?

[Bagso]

An interesting last 48 hours !

If there is a weekly review of operations I do hope the CEO at Manchester having just returned from @metropolis is asking a few highly pertinent questions of his management team with reference to strategy and the business model .....or lack of it !

Especially after such a bullish presentation that Manchester and Airport City is the place to be.

I'll leave it to the house to decide what might be on the agenda but Bucharest , Cairo, and low cost connections to the Middle East might just be worth exploring !

Personally I would be apoplectic !

[Ian Brooks]

Romania is a very weak market and not much money to be made
we have this problem every year with MS because of licence and we have know from the outset that FlyNas has been weak yet Saudi are doing very well

Ian

[MANFOD]

Bagso, "Especially after such a bullish presentation that Manchester and Airport City is the place to be"

Can you elaborate please? This passed me by.

As regards the bad news, I suspect he won't be too surprised about flynas, annoyed about Egyptair if they are definitely pulling out, but possibly more agitated about not getting Bucharest, assuming of course it was an airline and route they wanted. While a new destination from the North West is welcome, airports are highly competitive and MAN will not be happy if it loses out to a competitor up the road.

For MAN to continue to grow, it seems to me we need to increase the average pax per movement with larger a/c or increased LFs, and to win more flights at the times of day when runway, apron and terminal capacity permits. Foreign carriers such as Wizz, Norwegian , Vueling and Air Blue etc. could provide such opportunities by using non-based a/c. Likewise, at present I'm not sure we could handle more EZY and RYR based a/c, but more services with non-based a/c during the day would always be welcome, assuming of course sufficient demand and potential exists and routes are viable.

Expectations for S2015 have been high with the prospect of new long haul routes. But it will also be interesting to see whether or not Rouge and AA/US to Charlotte return after their short seasonal offerings this year.

[Bagso]

I'll try and get you the link ......lots of presentations about Airport Cities, not just here but around the World, was held in Manchester yesterday.

CEO is saying one thing whilst opportunities are missed elsewhere !

I appreciate these routes are not high yield money spinners BUT hang on.....as was said by Domy Don on another forum, Bucharest should surely have been a shoe in.

The market for FlyNas should easily be there given the traget audience AND our catchment but I doubt anybody knows the service even exists, yes the airline may be culpable but my goodness so are Manchester.

Egyptair ."having to renegotiate a bilateral every 6 months what the hell that all about ?"

It's Utter and total complacency to say we can cherry pick , choose or dismiss routes as we see fit !

Every single opportunity needs fully exploiting, AND what do these messages send out it to other potential customers ?

Once gone they are gone for good !

Is anybody made accountable for this because to me it looks a mess !

[Ian Brooks]

Romania is a very difficult market and the mass arrivals of people from that country did not really happen and the ones over here in general don`t have a lot of money to spend.

Ian

[LAX_LHR]

Turkish Airlines are using the A330-200 and A340-300 on selected flights in August and September due to 'increased demand'.

Nice to see a TK widebody back at MAN.

[MClayton]

Has anybody noticed the post on airline route about Etihad's new route to Edinburgh, how do you reckon that'll effect loads at Manchester ??

[LAX_LHR]

In terms of Etihad, there may well be a decrease on passengers using the flybe codeshare from EDI, and possibly other Scottish airports, but ultimately, it will only work to free up needed capacity on our flights for North West and surrounding area passengers.

[LAX_LHR]

Condor based B757-300 goes back to Germany on 30th October.

Next summer however, there will be 2xB757-300 and the 3 TCX B767-300's going to Condor for the winter will be operated as Condor flights from Manchester next summer (Condor still on the side of the plane and DE flight codes).

Crews for the 2xB757-300 will still be fully German based using the W patterns that they currently do, and the B767's will be TCX crewed.

[The96er]

Turkish Airlines are using the A330-200 on selected flights in August and September due to 'increased demand'.


No doubt boosted by increased number of visitors transiting on to Syria ! :E

[Ian Brooks]

As long as they are one way

Ian

[Ian Brooks]

I thought he said August so stop trying to be wind up

Ian

[LAX_LHR]

I thought he said August so stop trying to be wind up


Hopefully August Ian, but, don't worry about Skipness, Im not exactly concerned at his postings. If he wants to be 'that guy', who am I to stop him. :cool:

[blue_ashy]

eggc- Anything from Norwegian will be interesting seeing as they have started their long haul operation at Gatwick this week. I don't think an LAX route will be viable nor anything really apart from something aimed at the leisure market but obviously Florida could be an option.

I would of thought there would be plenty of room for flight-only competition in that sector where Virgin and the package outfits are dominant. To me the offerings from Monarch/TCX could be blown apart by a superior Norwegian 788 straight into MCO.

[PPRuNe Pop]

It is well known that Etihad is not a subject for PPRuNe. Cease please.

[MClayton]

Not trying to be awkward or whatever, but how is it not a subject if a new route my take passengers from a route that is operated from Manchester ?

Plus it does say in the section this forum is in " Airlines,Airports and Routes " so would you not say it comes under this category ?

[Una Due Tfc]

We aren't allowed speak of a certain airline as a while back members of staff were posting things on the site which said particular airline did not want in the public eye, and legal action was threatened. Simply refer to said airline as the "unmentionable" airline or something similar. We'll all know what is meant and the mods will be saved some difficulty.

[MClayton]

Don't understand why, but if that's what happened then fair enough

So no mention of 'said airline' is not allowed or just negative remarks ?

[easyflyer83]

I've been coming on here for years and I didn't know that we couldn't mention Etihad.

Didn't want to be in the public eye? A patch of grass 6 miles from me is named after etihad and lots of people every other week stands round that patch of grass with shirts showing that name.

[Brian Fantana]

I thought that it was more to do with "the unmentionable" not wanting their employment T&C'S and contract/lifestyle info being talked about on the pilot Middle East forum, but what do I know??

Getting on my soapbox, but last time I looked we still had free speech in this country!! If the unmentionable or any other foreign airline/company/tourist doesn't like that then tough, but that's how this country roles!!
When I travel to the ME or any other country I abide by the rules they set as its their country, they run it how they want and I deal with it.
Here in the UK it's free speech deal with it!
Getting off soap box.

[LN-KGL]

Brian Fantana, you are on the Internet now and using the expression "this country" isn't the best to use. This website is American, and the owner is Internet Brands Inc. in California, USA. Hence American laws is applied to this site, and with that you bear personal responsibility for what you say and you can be sued of private companies according to US law.

[paully]

Curious attitude by the er unmentionable, that normally likes to court publicity though. Perhaps the best way to deal with this issue is to make sure you use one of their many competitors when flying out of Manchester :ok:

[lfc84]

big queues reported this morning. out of the terminal and into the car parks

[Bernoulli]

The Iad Airways should learn that money can't always buy silence, even with all the lawyers in the world. If they are offering poor terms and conditions (and that could be cultural as well as financial) or anything else that causes employees to gripe on the Internet then perhaps their best bet would be to improve their offering. I'm lucky enough to not have to work for them and reading about their attitudes and culture makes me glad that's so.

[Betablockeruk]

big queues reported this morning. out of the terminal and into the car parks

Local rag picked up on this. Reckons more security staff being drafted in for T1.

Forward planning :ok:

Anyone know if it's just a T1 thing or does T2 suffer with the added security for westbounds (DAL/VIR/TOM/UAL)?

[MANFOD]

Yes, BBC North West Today reported the queues as well.

In the M.E.N. comments by the airport spokesperson included:

“This morning in Terminal One we saw a build-up of passengers at security but kept the queue moving at all times by opening more security lanes and adding more resources".

It's not surprising if the question is asked: why weren't all security lanes open earlier? The impression is given that only when the queue gets very long is action taken, rather than anticipating the problem to try and prevent queues becoming too long in the first place. And as betablockeruk implies, it's a bit late in the season to start thinking about extra security staff. The airport were aware of the pax increase in MAY, airline schedules and must surely have information about booking levels and terminal throughput.

To be fair, there was no comment that I saw as to how long it was taking passengers to get through security, and given the limited space for queues inside the terminal (I assume the queue goes straight outside from the security channel entry point rather than snaking round inside the terminal causing more mayhem), the length of the queue may be slightly deceptive.

[eggc]

Never known so many new starters at MAN. By my reckoning there have been 150 new security already, 20 more just finishing training and 20 more in the next couple of weeks. It's never ending...

[MANFOD]

eggc, thanks for that information. Are you able to say whether they are all additional security staff, or are some replacing leavers?

As regards additional checks on electronic devices for certain destinations, are these being done at the gate? Otherwise, it would mean segregating those pax in some way at, or before, the main security area which I would have thought could create more delays.

[eggc]

Not sure on how many are to replace leavers, but safe to say the huge majority are additional. Other departments are taking on just as many too, valet parking and bussing also seeing many additional staff. All good for the local economy :ok: The other point to note is that new starters are usually at the start of the summer season, and only for the summer season, but noticing that we're still seeing numerous batches of new starters throughout the year and beyond the end of the summer season, and they all seem to be permanent rather than short term seasonal posts.

[eaw]

I was on an Ezy at 0700 and passengers were rushing to the gate saying that it had taken over an hour to get through security.

The queues were zigzagged after security entry and also out of the terminal at one stage.

[LAX_LHR]

According to their online schedule, PIA seem to be operating a new triangle route as LHE-MAN-ISB from August. This makes flights from LHE 5 weekly and to ISB 3 weekly. Going the other way, to LHE is 2 weekly, to ISB is 4 weekly:

PK709 LHE 1405 MAN 1830
PK702 MAN 2110 LHE 0845

B777-300

Flight days for PIA:

LHE-MAN-LHE: Wed, Fri,
LHE-MAN-ISB: Sun
LHE-MAN-JFK: Tue, Sat
ISB-MAN-ISB: Mon, Tue, Thu

[eye2eye5]

Note recent comment on the Belfast thread that VS are expected to start services to MCO from Belfast, LAS from Glasgow together with some changes at MAN with formal announcement by October...........

[LAX_LHR]

Note recent comment on the Belfast thread that VS are expected to start services to MCO from Belfast, LAS from Glasgow together with some changes at MAN with formal announcement by October...........


I wonder what changes could be seen at MAN? I assume a LAS out of GLA could mean MAN is getting more flights? If not, could virgin be about to bow to the emergence of a newly revitalised TCX, which now flies to MCO, offers more LAS flights, ramped up BGI and starting MIA/JFK? Virgin have invested in the V-room at MAN so, one would hope that our services do not get cut.

But, on the flipside, the new JV with Delta, and TCX starting to push forward, could we about to see a new focus and direction on MAN, with DL? JFK perhaps? Although MAN is strictly leisure based for VS, we know for a fact they have looked at operating HKG, they have said as much themselves. Therefore, one could assume they have also looked into other non leisure routes from MAN?

Interesting times ahead, if the comments in the BFS thread are true.

[MANFOD]

"Note recent comment on the Belfast thread that VS are expected to start services to MCO from Belfast, LAS from Glasgow together with some changes at MAN with formal announcement by October..........."

Excuse my pessimism, or is it just being realistic, but unless VS can find a spare a/c from LGW or LHR, is not the most likely scenario that MAN will lose its second a/c in s2015, at least on some days. I think it's 2 x LAS, 1 x BGI and presumably 11 x MCO this summer, so simply dropping MCO to daily would provide 2 flights from both BFS & GLA even allowing for the long LAS sectors and positional flights I would have thought. Out of interest, was there one year when we had 3 x VS flights on certain days or is my memory playing tricks again?

On the other hand, it would be nice to think there's something more positive to come from the VS/DL jv for MAN; another case of wait and see I suppose.

[LAX_LHR]

was there one year when we had 3 x VS flights on certain days or is my memory playing tricks again


Could it have been when the A340-300 was used on the BGI run? Either that or it could have possibly been when the San Juan charters ran?

[Curious Pax]

In terms of aircraft availability don't forget that the 787s start arriving in the autumn, so they may be looking at things to use the displaced 340s for instead of retiring them?

[LAX_LHR]

There is no way we will see an A340-600 from VS on a flight from MAN (apart from the one to Kansas City later this month), and the A340-300's may be too premium heavy and inefficient from MAN. It would be more likely that the B787's could appear at MAN, but even them I have doubts about as they seem to be earmarked for LHR services.

[eggc]

I agree 346 won't come to MAN, much more likely to see 330's back or 787's...that is if we're even to get an extra a/c !

I am booked on VS MAN-MCO in Jan and to gain a couple of extra hours with Mickey we selected the later of the two flights, but I have had a mail from VS saying that we've been moved to the earlier flight as the later one is cancelled.

Hardly peak season though I know, and well before S15, but I do wonder if VS is still filling 11 p/w to MCO any longer...it's so bloody expensive to go these days pax numbers must be effected.

[LAX_LHR]

Ive seen on other sites that Egyptair over the winter is not bookable.

It will still run, this happens every season, in that the flights are not bookable until fairly later on.

This is because MS have to re-apply for the licence every season, as their current CAI-UK agreement only covers LHR, and MAN is always granted per season on a temporary licence. I have no idea why this is the case, and MS are working to get it made permanent, as they are aware that they are loosing bookings in the 'down time', but, they are unwilling to take bookings for flights until the licence is granted, just incase its ever denied for ay reason.

[Ian Brooks]

Have a look at the CAA figures that will tell you

Ian

[LAX_LHR]

Is Manchester finally about to get the much coveted West Coast USA link?

Los Angeles has appeared as a direct MAN destination on the Thomas Cook website, in exactly the same way Miami and JFK appeared before they were announced.

Would be amazing if this comes to fruition, and TCX 2 weekly is probably as much as MAN could manage realistically.

Lets keep our eyes peeled.

[LAX_LHR]

Rumours that tomorrow Norwegian will announce a MAN-Canary isle route.

Norwegian have gone as far as confirming 4 new routes for W14 will be announced tomorrow from the UK. They will be 2 sun routes, 2 ski routes. I would imagine the ski routes are firmly LGW territory, but, the 2 sun routes could be up for anyone to grab.

[LN-KGL]

Then it will be MAN-TFS and MAN-LPA. Both these Canary Islands airports have Norwegian Air Shuttle bases, mainly with Spanish crew.

[LAX_LHR]

Then it will be MAN-TFS and MAN-LPA. Both these Canary Islands airports have Norwegian Air Shuttle bases, mainly with Spanish crew


I would hope so LN-KGL. Like I say, the MAN portion is rumour (and has been rumoured on and off for a while), but the news of 4 routes announced has been confirmed.

[Mr A Tis]

When I left the UK 2 weeks ago on AC Rouge, not one single Rouge departure had been dispatched on time- despite the aircraft arriving at MAN on time.
I was told that Swissport had problems with the Air Canada "system" that affects check in. Does anyone know if this is resolved yet or are they still leaving late?
I was on one of the "better" days & made my connection at YYZ by less than one minute.
I would not have expected such severe disruption to check in a flight. I'd be interested to know what the problem is.

[LAX_LHR]

It seems the Norwegian rumour was a duff one, yet again! It seems the Norwegian stagnation/retraction in the North West continues for the time being.

(The new routes were Grenoble, La Palma, Funchal and Salzburg, not from MAN obviously)

[MANFOD]

Can't understand why this Norwegian rumour keeps cropping up. There were stories of based crew and 2 a/c at one stage. Is it possible something was a foot but they then changed their mind? As you say, the hard evidence is that all they've done is reduced frequencies at MAN and pulled LPL-CP.
Do I take it the the 4 new routes are all LGW? (Edit: I see from the Gatwick thread they are).

On the topic of rumours LAX LHR, is there any more indication Vueling might be considering MAN and other UK airports?

[LAX_LHR]

Can't understand why this Norwegian rumour keeps cropping up.


It pops up from different sources each time. This time it was supposed to be a 2 weekly flight from a Canarian based aircraft, with LPA the more likely suspect.

I genuinely do not know what the future holds for Norwegian at MAN. ARN has come down from a peak of 5 weekly to 2 weekly, OSL down from 4 to 3 and SVG staying at 2 weekly (although that's probably as much as it needs). CPH was pulled from LPL and never seen again, but, at a low frequency against 2 other strong carriers, Im guessing DY wouldn't touch with a barge pole.

If they cant even expand what they have got, let alone start new routes, then to me, a base is a definite 'unlikely' in my eyes.

is there any more indication Vueling might be considering MAN and other UK airports?

As far as I know its going ahead, it was loaded early on the website in error and unfinished, by all accounts.
Before it was taken down, no start date was loaded, but fares from £29.99 were loaded. January seemed to be when it was accepting and loading fare buckets.

[LAX_LHR]

I wonder if the new Easyjet base at Porto, to be announced tomorrow, will yield a route to Manchester?

Could be another gap filled if so.....

[Crazy Voyager]

Maybe the scandinavian market isn't holding up for MAN? London is the big destination for most scandinavians, Edinburgh probably gets high up as well but most people have probably never considered to go to Manchester. Instead you go for a weekend in london, go to dublin for the beer, or go to Edinburgh to be "cultured".

Manchester does have a lot to offer, and I'm sure it could be a very popular destination for scandinavians. It offers a big city (no the size of london, but still big compared to most scandinavian cities) and most of the things all the 3 mentioned above offer. I think it's also cheaper to visit than the 3 above mentioned cities. However at the moment, I think few have considered Manchester in that way.


Maybe this is emphasised by two routes that I think (anyone with more info?) are doing very well, the BA sunair operated routes to Billund and Gothenburg. They're small aircraft but from what I've understood they have a good load factor, and I assume they attract a lot of business travel.


I'm sure there is a potential in the scandinavian routes, but at the moment they don't seem to be doing great.

And as with all my posts, I know very little about this, the above is just my own speculation mainly based on personal experiences rather than facts and numbers. Any other thoughts always appreciated :ok:

[LAX_LHR]

I'm sure there is a potential in the scandinavian routes, but at the moment
they don't seem to be doing great.


Apart from a low cost alternative for Helsinki, the great thing about Norwegian is that it is no longer confined to Scandinavian routes.

There are bases at LPA/TFS/MAD and BCN?. They also offer Malaga to MUC/CGN so, the scope widens. Also a potential site for a base. Yes, some routes already have a lot of traffic, but many routes do not (MAD/LPA/TFS/VIE/IBZ), and lets face it, with their OTP and things like wifi, it would offer a competitive edge to some carriers.

It also offers seats for TUI, so, another potential source of passengers on any MAN-Sun route.

[MANFOD]

Quote: "I wonder if the new Easyjet base at Porto, to be announced tomorrow, will yield a route to Manchester?"

It did cross my mind too. Ryanair fly to Oporto from LPL (but not EZY). I've no idea how that route does but might check the CAA figures. EZY seem a little cautious about MAN expansion just at the moment after the 2 extra based a/c we got last year, although the recently announced Madeira route is very welcome.

[Bagso]

Awful lot of bunkum that LHR is purely a business airport, let's be clear, it isn't !

By providing a service Ex Manchester Thomas Cook could conceivably cream off a lot of tourist traffic to LAX that routinely uses Heathrow......

[All names taken]

What's with all the angst that Norwegian AREN'T starting flights from the Canary Islands to MAN?

Those routes are more than adequately served with countless departures a day.
Furthermore they are on British based aircraft, providing local British jobs and flown by British crew.
The only people who might think that Norwegian jumping in is a good thing are probably plane spotters so they can get their fleet books up to date.

[LAX_LHR]

The only people who might think that Norwegian jumping in is a good thing are probably plane spotters so they can get their fleet books up to date


Or perhaps passengers who may prefer the Norwegian brand perhaps? Free wifi. Good OTP records. Good onboard service? Perhaps despite the *many* flights, as you put it, on a route, any Norwegian propose may be better timing/day for some people?

As for British jobs. More flights = increased chance of a base = more jobs. Lets not forget the ground jobs ANY extra flights create.

Lets not pretend this is just a plane spotting thing.

[Armodeen]

Maybe this is emphasised by two routes that I think (anyone with more info?) are doing very well, the BA sunair operated routes to Billund and Gothenburg. They're small aircraft but from what I've understood they have a good load factor, and I assume they attract a lot of business travel.

I was asking the BA staff at MAN about these routes the other day. They said they are very unpredictable in their loads. The prices are extremely high on these services (Billund 10 months in advance £295). The wife wants to take the little one to legoland there and explore Denmark a bit, but the cost is prohibative. However at 9000 avios a pop they are very good value for redemption flights, and so the little one gets to play with lego afterall ;)

[duthcourage]

EasyJet is expanding @ AMS by creating a base of 3 planes wanting to increase from 3,5 to 7 million passengers annually. Wonder if they might want to compete with KLM on MAN (and other airports) by expanding their double daily flights?


source (in dutch): 'EasyJet-basis met minstens drie toestellen op Schiphol' | Luchtvaartnieuws (http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/easyjet-basis-met-minstens-drie-toestellen-op-schiphol)

[MANFOD]

Quoting LAX LHR
"Or perhaps passengers who may prefer the Norwegian brand perhaps?"

An interesting point about brand preference. Linking that to Bagso's point about a potential TCX service to LAX creaming off some of the leisure traffic that currently flies via LHR, (or possibly via US hubs) from MAN, I wonder if all leisure pax would necessarily choose that type of direct, non-stop flight to the US West Coast. I guess many folk are not too concerned about which airline, but for some brand preference is important.

3 years ago, my good lady and I booked a fly-drive holiday to California through a travel agent with BA, going into SFO but returning from LAX. It worked out fine. If we were to repeat that holiday, I just don't know whether we would automatically use a TCX direct flight if it existed. Price is evidently important, but so is comfort, service, reliability and frequency. Such a service could of course attract new passengers who may not previously have considered California and from a wider region, but could there be be greater potential with say 2 x weekly flights to both LAX and SFO to attract the more adventurous traveller and not just those focused on Disneyland, Hollywood etc?

[easyflyer83]

I think it is clear that the new TCX routes, welcome as they are, will be quasi-charters. I.e full of people who perhaps haven't the confidence or the will to organise holidays for themselves. That said, a lot of people still value direct flights.


I also agree with the sentiments about Norwegian. It is no good simply flooding already saturated routes. It helps no one. Not the new entrants, the incumbents or the airport.

[LAX_LHR]

I also agree with the sentiments about Norwegian. It is no good simply flooding already saturated routes. It helps no one. Not the new entrants, the incumbents or the airport.


But surely as a base, Norwegian would be one of these 'new' entrants? (yes they already serve MAN, but, as a base, it would be a different prospect to what they are now.)

Also, given the amount of sun routes, are Ryanair and easyjet not 'flooding markets' also? Quite a protectionist view to hold really.

Also, who is to say Norwegian would purely aim at 'saturated markets', and, what are the 'saturated markets'?

Las Palmas, for the size of the island and offering, is served significantly less than TFS/ACE for example?

There are plenty of destinations, that, MAN sees as underserved that Norwegian do serve, so could quite happily co-exist with the MAN incumbents. If EZY/RYR don't want to serve those routes, then frankly, let someone in that will.
Could there be slight over-capacity to places like TFS/PMI/AGP? Yes, but, its not like its never happened before?

[LN-KGL]

I think All name taken is right about the angst, but this may well be an anxiety for the new at MAN. The share of North Westerners on today's DY flights to/from MAN is next to nothing. DY has noted these conservative and also partly nationalistic attitudes in the North West. LGW and London it is very different from MAN and the North West - at LGW the quality of the service also plays a vital role, not only the price tag. The first quarter this year Norwegian had 10% of the passengers on international flights from LGW, up from 6% one year earlier (these numbers are according to DY). Of the 52% growth in passenger numbers around half of it was on the new non-Nordic destinations from LGW, partly with LGW based aircraft and British crew. The other half was from Scandinavia, but there too LGW based aircraft and crew flew a large share of the added capacity.

The added capacity this year is 14 new B738, but at the same time 5 old B733 and 3 old B738 (from the LN-NO_ sersies) will be retired. Next year the capacity growth will be lower with only 8 more B738 and the last 5 old B733 retired. It looks like 2015 will be a year of consolidation. 2016 on the other hand looks like be next year with a significant capacity growth with 4 new B789 and 17 new B738 + maybe 4 A320 neo at the end of the year.

[easyflyer83]

Sorry, for some reason I can no longer use the quote function.


A lot of the routes you quoted LAX_LHR are indeed either saturated and/or low yielding so what I meant was that Norwegian would not benefit from dumping capacity on routes such as TFS (which are saturated...trust me), the incumbent operators, of which there are many, wouldn't benefit and if carriers start dropping routes then the airport doesn't benefit either.


As for Easyjet (obviously you're taking my comments as being tribal) they have been operating many of the saturated routes for many years. 2005 in some cases. Plus they also launched much needed routes for MAN including ATH and SXF and thinner routes like BIO. Now if Norwegian were to do the same then that is welcome but do we need more capacity on TFS/LPA/IBZ/PMI etc ???? No. And if Norwegian were to offer these routes they may struggle. They just aren't a strong enough brand to operate such routes ex MAN (or anywhere else in Northern England) in my opinion.

[All names taken]

Agree there Easyflyer.
Having flown both EZY and DY, the alleged difference in product quality is much less than people would have you believe.

I may also have been misunderstood.
I don't have a problem with DY setting up a base - why would I? - it would bring new (British based) jobs and investment. However flying in from a Canaries base on an over-served route seems pointless.
Plenty of other under-served or even un-served routes to go at.

And LN-KGL - how well do you know England? The North - Conservative and nationalistic? - I think you're completely wrong about that.

Anyway, signing off - work to do.

[easyflyer83]

I've not flown DY so I can't comment personally. I have heard that despite the free wifi offering that the service is very similar. Although I do like their cabins.


I think what LN-KGL meant by conservative is "they know what they want and know what they like". I don't think he meant they are all tory supporters.
I'm a proud Northerner but northerners can, rightly or wrongly, be rather suspicious of the new/unknown.


I'm trying to explain that without sounding offensive.

[Curious Pax]

In an unscientific poll of one (ie me) the respondent struggled to think of any advertising they have seem from Norwegian in my area of South Manchester. With so few flights, word of mouth isn't going to get round very quickly either. I don't know about the advertising they have round Gatwick's catchments area, but with the much greater volume of flights they operate there they will have become more widely known much quicker.

Ryanair for one seem to be doing quite well from 'conservative and nationalistic' north westerners, despite being quite a recent option for most of their destinations (apart from Dublin). They also advertise a lot......

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

LN-KGL -

I must strongly disagree with your assertion that folks in NW England avoid Norwegian for "nationalistic" reasons. This is just plain wrong. As you know, overseas carriers do extremely well out of MAN when there is strong awareness of their product offering and demand for the destinations offered. Look no further than the MEB3 for evidence of this. And within Europe, frequency increases by carriers such as THY Turkish and TAP Portugal also demonstrate the market's willingness to fly with overseas carriers. Are you suggesting that NW England customers are biased against Norwegians in particular but are fine with Arabs, Turks and Portuguese? This reasoning makes no sense in reality.

Norwegian's challenges ex-MAN lie elsewhere. Specifically, Scandinavia is served ex-MAN by SAS, "British Airways" [to the consumer, Sun-Air to us!], EasyJet and Ryanair as well as Norwegian. I put it to you that all four of these brands are significantly better known in NW England than DY. Most people here are familiar with SAS; BA, Ryanair and EasyJet enjoy very strong market recognition. Norwegian Air Shuttle … not so much. The problem for DY is not prejudice against their nationality, it is market awareness of their existence and of what they do.

The other factor influencing DY's penetration at MAN is that they serve only routes to Scandinavia itself. Beautiful destinations, yes, but also extremely expensive ones for those who count their savings in GBP. Also, Scandinavian cities are cultural destinations ideal for upmarket city breaks, but they will not appeal to the large 'sunseeker' market.

If Norwegian does eventually elect to venture into the MAN - Mediterranean market, they will find zero resistance based on nationality or provincialism. They will, however, have to create brand-awareness to differentiate themselves from widely-recognised strong incumbent carriers such as EZY, RYR, MON, EXS, TOM, TCX and all the rest.

Norwegian Air Shuttle does offer a great product in the cabin. But few folks in NW England know that. And only those traveling to Scandinavia need take an interest anyway. That is nothing to do with conservatism or nationalism. It is about product-awareness … nothing more.

[Bagso]

The share of North Westerners on today's DY flights to/from MAN is next to nothing. DY has noted these conservative and also partly nationalistic attitudes in the North West.

er , hang on there .....nationalistic attitudes, cannot let that one pass ?

We are not living under the umbrella of The Reichstag up here !

50% of the time I suspect your typical passenger has not but a clue who they are flying with unless its RYR, EZY , Emirates etc who have a strong brand offering and identity.

You could try an innovative approach, advertising !

Try letting people know you run these services......that would help.

[SWBKCB]

re Norwegian - a consistent flight schedule might also help - maybe fly to the same place on the same day at the same time for more than a couple of weeks??

Other news:

Greater Manchester councils get £30m windfall from airport - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/greater-manchester-councils-30m-windfall-7421612)

MAG is also close to securing a direct service to mainland China, as well as looking to win more routes to the west coast of America and other high-growth markets. (I know, I know...)

[eye2eye5]

Shed

Well put. I feel that your sentiments equally apply to the failure of the Liverpool to Copenhagen route. Little advertising until the route was dead on its feet and a strong alternative in terms of brand and frequency at Manchester. DY will have to invest more in front end advertising if they are to expand successfully in North West.

[Bagso]

Colleague at work Chester, off to Singapore with SIA....

Only issue, driving down m56 25mins, but then turning hard right for 4 hours for LHR.

£300 cheaper ! Bizarre!

[anothertyke]

Stockholm and Copenhagen are nice places to visit but pricey,cold in the winter and in competition with lots of other cultural cities. Finite markets which are not particularly easy to grow. Nothing to do with nationalism, something to do with wallets.

[Logohu]

Colleague at work Chester, off to Singapore with SIA....

Only issue, driving down m56 25mins, but then turning hard right for 4 hours for LHR.

That's interesting Bagso. How far ahead did he book ?? I've been looking at fares to MAN from overseas for my Christmas trip, and the SQ site only offered me the direct flight to MAN. I was surprised to find it was also the cheapest option I looked at. However for a relatively small amount I was able to get a slightly more flexible ticket on EK which allows cancellation if necessary and advance seat selection, both of which are important to me.

Maybe with SQ it's just a case of once MAN has filled it's allocation of cheap seats on SQ327/328 it defaults to the next cheapest option which happens to be via LHR ? SQ327/328 is only once a day and Munich must take a sizeable chunk of the seats since LH pulled their own MUC-SIN flight.

Hopefully SQ will upgrade MAN to nonstop again at some point when they have the right equipment available. They don't want to leave it too long though with CX now offering a nonstop product from the Far East.

[Bagso]

It was apparently booked via "an agent".
Departure date was late Aug or September I think.
I thought at first they had been booked direct on the London flights without ref to Manchester but a bit of quizzing suggested that they had indeed been offered Manchester but it was a £600 saving for 2 if they flew from London.
I should add it was actually first class as was part of a wedding holiday package with an onward connection to Bali.

Even so, we have the airport, we have the flight but still lose out due excess capacity and a degree of fare dumping due supply and demand.

Whatever the circumstances and im sure some on here will justify it, it is a completely barmy scenario !

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

M.E.N.

"Massive council windfall"

“The announcement of the first direct link between Manchester and China was significant and we have continued to perform well adding long-haul routes such as Charlotte, Jeddah, and Toronto at Manchester for this Summer.

Where would we be without the brazen soundbites offered and then so deliciously gobbled up by the M E N

Indeed all damn jolly stuff and a good excuse to crack open the Champagne or as some Southerners might suggest, twang your braces and have a
Brown Ale !

But wait, maybe that spokesperson should have placed emphasis on the longevity of "sun routes" stretching into late October with less focus on those long haul routes ?

Charlotte is summer only, a short season, AND some suggest it "may" have a shelf life which is completely out of the airports control !

I would add as an aside that it always intrigues me that some of these "business routes" are cut in winter as indeed this will be, does the UK and USA only actually do business May to September ?


Toronto must be the shortest schedule in the history of a long haul service anywhere ! My goodness it only started two weeks ago and will almost be gone before the next bank holiday !

Jeddah, hardly a roaring success, if rumours are to be believed capacity is slashed from August after just 4 months and this at the very start of the Hajj , pilgrimage season when both flights should be absolutely bouncing given the massive opportunities in our catchment area.

ten out of ten for generating oodles of cash

four out of ten for focusing on wrong criteria........ especially if they are all gone by this time next year, unlikely BUT nonetheless possible !

PS ....my "one-man and his dog" haranguing of marketing appears to have embarrassed them into action , in recent weeks their twitter feed (110K followers) has at last started mentioning airlines, services, and frequency to other destinations rather than just our much vaunted Hong Kong route , rejoice !

[pwalhx]

There was a complaint recently about T2 and Thomson check in and the delays with it and security.

Just to give an alternative account, last Monday 7th I was due to fly out on TOM156 at 10.30, left home at 6.45 a.m. for the 50 minute drive to the airport and there was an accident near Rochdale on the M62 and as a consequence did not arrive in the airport car park till 9.00 a.m. Whilst it could be argued that was plenty of time, still last minute for me.

Walked into T2 and there were plenty of Thomson desks open, went straight to the bag drop, no queue, up to security and was through immediately with no delay.

Arrived back yesterday, aeroplane was at the gate at 6.15 a.m. I was out of the terminal door at 6.45 a.m. with my baggage amongst the last through.

On a separate note, flew on the new Dreamliner (G-TUIE), whilst the leg room is significantly improved on the 767 for example I was slightly underwhelmed by the aeroplane itself, I was looking forward to the experience and came away a little deflated, certainly not as impressive as the first time I flew on the A380.

[LAX_LHR]

On the Belfast thread a few days ago, it was announced that GLA-LAS and BFS-MCO would start, with 'changes to MAN'.

Now that its been announced that GLA-LAS and BFS-MCO will be a short series of flights, Im safely assuming that the aircraft to run these comes from MAN, given the 'changes to MAN' comment?

[easyflyer83]

I think the problem with TOM is that if there are a number of flights departing at the same time everyone turns up for check in at the same time. Why? Because many charter pax still think that if they aren't there 2 hours before they won't be able to fly whilst many also see the airport as part of the holiday experience. Of course nearly all TOM pax will have a bag to check in given the length they are away.

Compare that to an airline with a mixture of holiday and business routes where fewer people check bags and the influx of pax tend to be spread over the time up to departure.

As for the Dreamliner, TOM IMO have oversold the aircraft. Technically I'm sure it will be a game changer. Ultimately for the average pax though it is just another aircraft. Having flown 4 times on the A380 I feel the same about that aircraft. Sure it looks impressive and somewhat unique from the outside but once you've sat on it for a few hours it is just a modern 747.

[blue_ashy]

I think the problem with TOM is that if there are a number of flights departing at the same time everyone turns up for check in at the same time. Why? Because many charter pax still think that if they aren't there 2 hours before they won't be able to fly whilst many also see the airport as part of the holiday experience. Of course nearly all TOM pax will have a bag to check in given the length they are away.

Compare that to an airline with a mixture of holiday and business routes where fewer people check bags and the influx of pax tend to be spread over the time up to departure.

As for the Dreamliner, TOM IMO have oversold the aircraft. Technically I'm sure it will be a game changer. Ultimately for the average pax though it is just another aircraft. Having flown 4 times on the A380 I feel the same about that aircraft. Sure it looks impressive and somewhat unique from the outside but once you've sat on it for a few hours it is just a modern 747.

I don't think they have oversold the 787 at all. The 787 is an unprecedented aircraft for a UK leisure airline to use. Most leisure airlines are still lapsing along with cramped seats inside old 767/757's. Even the A330's in use at MON and TCX are looking ridiculously aged compared to the 787.

Having a 787 gives them a competitive edge over every single other airline that might fly to those destinations. If I had a choice of flying to Mexico or any other long haul destination I would choose it everytime, it is by a country mile a superior product to any other offering. It is only right they should oversell it as much as possible because it really does beat everything out there in that market.

I flew on the A380 to DXB last year and I have to say the same about the A380, the economy experience is beyond anything I have ever experienced before. Compare economy on the A380 with the 77W I returned to Manchester on and there is just no contest.

Both the 787 and A380 are stunning aircraft and excellent examples of what the future holds for the average traveller who can get a level of comfort they won't have seen before. I have travelled on both and they both have two product offerings there to be very proud of.

[110Cornets]

Bagso and Logohu

Without knowing the dates of Bagso's friends' travel, it's impossible to verify, but it's likely that LHR is that much cheaper than MAN due to seat availability, as Logohu suggests.

Contrary to popular belief, when a flight first goes on sale, there are seats available from both MAN and LHR services at exactly the same price for almost every long haul airline, although the carrier can/will control the number of seats available on each flight at the lowest advertised price.

In the case of SQ we have the added MUC factor. If we assume that half of the available MAN seats are blocked for MUC originating traffic, then MAN to LHR's ratio of seats is 1:8, aircraft size excepted.

So the fact that Bagso's friend was quoted a premium to fly from MAN is in fact a credit to the Manchester SQ operation's success. The fact that SQ's yield department feel that MAN can justify a supplement over LHR is again a testament to MAN's worthiness. A sufficient number of people are paying the premium to fly SQ from Manchester, so Bagso's friend would have had to pay extra for one of the remaining seats. And some people will! That's how the market works.

[MANFOD]

Quoting LAX LHR re BFS-MCO and GLA-LAS

"Im safely assuming that the aircraft to run these comes from MAN, given the 'changes to MAN' comment?"

Afraid this was my immediate reaction a few days ago when these services were first reported. The Belfast flights are on Thursdays when we have an MCO and a LAS flight. Virgin having previously chopped our winter LAS service and with competition from TCX, I wonder if we may lose that altogether. However, over 15,000 pax flew the route in June but I don't know the split between airlines. I would have thought VS did well in Business from MAN (certain footballers for example?) so it would be disappointing if they did pull the route.

MCO was also well up in June but I think part of this was TOM? switching from the other Orlando airport.

Edit: It would appear that the series of GLA-LAS is also on a Thursday after the BFS-MCO flights.