IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK [Archive]

StephenM_SMC

25th Jan 2007, 10:17

All I could get from the Executive summary under the Sligo section was this;
Continued support for Knock and Sligo Regional Airports;
In the full text they had this to say about the regional airports in Ireland;
Regional Airports
The six regional airports in the State — South East Regional Airport Waterford, Farranfore Airport Kerry, Ireland West Airport Knock, Sligo, Galway and Donegal, which are all in private ownership, are eligible to apply for State assistance under the Transport Programme. In addition, the Government has committed \7.5 million to the development of the City of Derry Airport which will benefit citizens throughout the North West region. The key role of regional airports is to complement that of the State Airports and to help promote regional development. A provision of \96.5 million of capital funding will be available under this heading over the period of the Plan. The purpose of the funding is two-fold. Firstly, it will fund existing and future essential safety/security requirements of the regional airports. Secondly, there will be Exchequer support for capital investment in developmental projects at these airports up to 2010, where sustainable demand for additional air services can be demonstrated and where an economic case can be made to justify
increased investment.
In addition to capital funding, subventions are provided to the regional airports for core operational expenditure and to airlines operating public service obligation routes. This is an important regional development intervention and the scheme will continue to operate subject to periodic review. In principle,
the objective should be to promote, as far as possible, commercially viable routes from and between the regional airports.
In the past, support for the development of Ireland West Airport Knock has also been provided under the CLA´ R Programme and the Western Investment Fund operated through the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The provision of additional support under these programmes which are encompassed by the Rural Social and Economic Development Programme of the Enterprise, Science and Innovation Priority will be kept under consideration.
Source: NDP 2007-2013 Transforming Ireland Complete Text - National Development Plan (NDP) Ireland
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/NDP2007-2013/NDP-2007-2013-English.pdf

Devonair

25th Jan 2007, 20:59

I believe a press conference is being held in NOC on Monday. BOS and NYC have been mentioned as services from the airport via GLA and LPL.

Charlie Roy

25th Jan 2007, 23:12

Glasgow, Liverpool, New York, Boston and military flights!

Cork could learn a lot from Knock! Well done Knock :D

Tom the Tenor

25th Jan 2007, 23:42

EI-DHC

25th Jan 2007, 23:51

Glasgow,:D

Will Globespan be offering the Knock-Glasgow leg of the route for sale seperately aswell?

gaelgeoir

26th Jan 2007, 09:54

Devonair, you refer to the flights from Knock to be via GLA & LPL. Flying east first to then head west again out over the North Atlantic? Or is this is how the project be will scheduled to get around the Shannon stopover?

The service is planned LPL-NOC-JFK-NOC-LPL under the terms of the U.K./U.S. bilateral which permits intermediate stops subject to the approval of the intermediate State. A similar operation could be permitted via Cork, but then you'd have a Cork stopover as well as the Shannon and Knock versions!

sawtooth

26th Jan 2007, 12:29

From the Flyglobespan thread:
"All GSM flights to New York departing Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday will stop at Knock. The aircraft will now land at JFK at 1800 rather than 1530 but departs Liverpool half an hour earlier.
The return flights on Sun, Tue and Thur operate via Knock inbound too arriving at Liverpool at 0845. This applies to the summer schedule only at the present time...

The Glasgow/Boston operates westbound via Knock on Wednesday and Sunday and eastbound on Tuesday and Saturday during the summer period."

I could see this being popular for summer months if marketed well. I haven't experienced Flyglobespan (or any low cost long haul ) yet myself but I'm wondering how attractive these flights will be using a 738 and requiring a fuel stop in St Johns. Not so bad for Knock pax, bit of a rollercoaster for Liverpool though. But if the price is right...

diesel36

26th Jan 2007, 15:10

The liverpool flights are all on a 757-200ER so will operate

LPL-JFK-LPL OR LPL-NOC-JFK-NOC-LPL

The Gla-Bos is on a 738 but having seats taken out so it can make it direct

So that will be GLA-BOS-GLA OR GLA-NOC-BOS-NOC-GLA

So no need for stops anywhere

Tom the Tenor

26th Jan 2007, 23:54

Yes, it will be a great day for Knock when the first Flyglobespan aeroplane takes off on the inaugural flight to New York. I am sure Knock will have every good wish from everyone in Cork for the success of the new series of flights to New York and Boston.

The crowd in the midwest will hardly be too pleased at your welcome new US routes though so with that in mind I would advise the followers of Knock Airport to keep your friends close and your enemies even closer until the flights begin. Between now and when the first flight goes out it is important for Knock not to take her eye off the ball, not for one second.

They will shaft you if they can so like what the boy scouts motto says 'Bigi Ullamh!'

Fate is now knocking on the door of Cork Airport.

ryan2000

27th Jan 2007, 09:24

Getting the flights is one thing, filling them is another. When Slattery's put on a ORK-JFK charter inn 2005, it was warmly welcomed. However when push came to shove people booked on the cheaper scheduled flights out of Shannon.
Other lame excuses such as "my friend can't go on Thursday" and "my mothers sister wants to come back on Sunday" also led to people taking the journey to Shannon rather than supporting their local airports initiative. Best of luck to Knock but watch your back and keep Flyglobespan happy.

Vapor

27th Jan 2007, 13:07

Well i think price will be the key. If the price is much lower than SNN or DUB then it will have a chance. Globespan are a low fares airline so i would expect this to be the case.
This is probably why the scheduled charters ex cork didn't do as well as they could have done. ie. comparable or cheaper prices avail from SNN and DUB.

This is very good news for NOC, has the Irish govt given the green light yet?

Jet_stream

27th Jan 2007, 18:09

Flight with flyglobespan will originate in LPL and GLA. LPL - NOC - JFK and GLA - NOC - BOS. Both these routes are daily however will probably only go via NOC 2 or 3 times a week.

johnrizzo2000

28th Jan 2007, 16:04

Pricing and advertising will be key to the success of GSM at Knock. Its not available for booking yet on GSM's website, which isnt great either. A lot of people are planning there summer holidays now, so GSM needs to get moving. I also would have thought that the Knock route would attract more inbound traffic, so is GSM's brand strong in the US, and will they advertise stateside?

runawayedge

29th Jan 2007, 11:09

Think you will find that Knock have thrown the kitchen sink at GSM in terms of marketing support and rebate, which probably includes stateside promotion. A shared aircraft a couple of times a week won't generate any significant additional pax, I hope therefore that Knock have kept between the lines on the EU new route support guidelines, otherwise FR and EINN will have something to say

EI-BED

29th Jan 2007, 11:19

From RTE

Knock airport to go transatlantic

January 29, 2007 12:08
Twenty one years after it was inaugurated, Knock Airport in Co Mayo is to introduce its first scheduled transatlantic flights.

The flights will operate to and from Boston and New York and the airport board says they will bring up to 35,000 tourists to the western region.
The low cost UK carrier Flyglobespan will begin operating the flights to and from Ireland West Airport in May.

There will be three flights a week to New York and two to Boston. These flights will originate in Liverpool and Glasgow.

The airport board says the services have the potential to give the region a €28m boost in the first year of operation.

Managing director Liam Scollan said the US flights were a 'hugely significant development' for the airport.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0129/knock.html

Devonair

29th Jan 2007, 12:01

Flights are now available to book in the GSM website. Lead in one way fares inc taxes seem to start from €211 to JFK and €240 to BOS.

runawayedge

29th Jan 2007, 12:51

A welcome announcement.....don't think maths was Mr Scollan's best subject in school though. I reckon there are approx 21,000 seats available inbound from Boston and New York to Knock, Liverpool and Glasgow. Assuming 60% originate stateside that's 12,600 and a 50/50 split LPL/GLA/NOC (optimistic for Knock) the best case scenario I arrive at is 6,300 inbound figures who between them will spend €28m (megaspenders). Finally I see LPL and GLA are not being sold, probably too difficult to manage the turnaround! Hope it works!

akerosid

29th Jan 2007, 13:37

I seem to recall, from the ORK thread, that an aircraft flying any route from Ireland to the US, needed to be Irish. I note what is said about permission from the intermediate state (and also, the deafening silence, so far, from Kildare Street), but what about the US authorities? Will they permit Ireland-US operations by a UK carrier? Is this exemption about aircraft on an intermediate stop actually written into the current Irish-US bilateral?

Wasn't there a proposal some time ago that Y2 would put an aircraft on the Irish register. I really hope this can go through, but I have a niggling suspicion that there may be trouble ahead.

That said, it could be a good ploy by the NOC authorities; will the govt - in an election year - obstruct this? They may have to say no initially, but I'm sure that there will be an "added incentive" to sort out any difficulties in the interim.

sawtooth

29th Jan 2007, 13:44

Well according to posts in the Flyglobespan thread the US DOT approved the routes, and Minister Eamonn O Cuiv launced the flights today so they have both sides in agreement. The NY Mayor Bloomberg was also involved, he met the board of IWAK last summer and is visiting again next week.

EI-BED

30th Jan 2007, 08:10

Cullen - proposed new air services linking Ireland West Airport Knock with the US
http://www.transport.ie/Images/spacer.gif
29 January 2007
Monday 29 January 2007: The Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen T.D. has approved, in principle, the granting of traffic rights for new air services linking Ireland West Airport Knock with the US and the UK. The new services will be operated by UK carrier Flyglobespan, and the routes in question are Liverpool to New York via Knock and Glasgow to Boston via Knock.
The Minister understands that the services are scheduled to commence in May 2007, subject to the finalisation of security arrangements at Ireland West Airport Knock. Authorisation is to be granted to the airline for an initial period of 12 months. This position will be reviewed in light of future progress towards a wider EU Open Skies agreement with the United States.
Commenting on the proposed new services, Minister Cullen said: "The Government's air services strategy promotes competitiveness, flexibility, consumer choice and diversity of product to satisfy different consumer needs. I am very pleased that Flyglobespan will be bringing new competition into the market place and introducing choice for the Irish passenger. It is a positive development that residents in the west of Ireland will be able to fly to New York and Boston from County Mayo. This presents a great opportunity to grow tourism and exploit business opportunities for the benefit of the BMW region."
The services are the first transatlantic scheduled services to be operated out of Ireland West Airport Knock.
"The Government's continued support of our regional airports plays an important role in promoting more balanced regional development and the commencement of transatlantic services at Knock would underline the value of that strategy," the Minister said.
ENDS

asianfly

30th Jan 2007, 09:59

Here is a report from today's Irish Independent...gives some background to the airport's interesting history and the new US route. I imagine we will be hearing a lot more announcements re Irish airports in the run up to the election.

It's take-off as Knock lands first flights to the US

A PLAN for Ireland's first low-cost transatlantic flights from Knock has been unveiled.

Some two decades since Monsignor James Horan's vision for a truly international airport in Co Mayo was dismissed, the dream has finally taken wings across the Atlantic.

Msgr Horan was the founder of Knock Airport, now officially called Ireland West Airport Knock.

But critics and sceptics were confounded and 21 years later, the airport has truly come of age with the launch of three-times-a-week flights to JFK Airport in New York from May 27 and a twice-weekly service to Boston Logan International Airport from May 30.

The flights, originating in Liverpool and Glasgow, are being provided by Scottish low-cost carrier Flyglobespan, which has signed a five-year contract with the west of Ireland airport.

Prices

Return prices, including taxes, could cost as little as €460, according to airport managing director Liam Scollan.

It is estimated that the services have the potential to bring up to 35,000 US tourists and an estimated €28m spending boost to the West and North West in the current year alone.

According to Mr Scollan, this is expected to grow to more than 56,000 US tourists, with an estimated spend of up to €45m by 2008.

"We can see the floodgates opening. For 160 years, the largest emigration to the United States was from the west of Ireland so there are massive cultural and social links, particularly with the east coast of America.

"And four-fifths of all the Irish that emigrated to the US came from counties of the West," he said.

But unlike the past when no work made emigration a necessity and the ticket was usually one-way, today's traveller has a very different profile.

Weekend shopping trips to New York and Boston and holidays in Cape Cod are more likely to be the order of the day, while many of those on inbound flights will have west of Ireland blood coursing through their veins.

Tourism bodies have estimated the direct flights will boost spending in the West by up to €45m by 2008.

"These transatlantic services will connect neighbours, friends and relatives that have long been separated by a century of emigration from this region to the US," said Mr Scollan.

They would also foster the growing business links with the US in the region.

At yesterday's historic event, political, community, church and tourism leaders united to welcome what airport chairman Joe Kennedy described as a milestone in aviation history.

Anita Guidera

StephenM_SMC

30th Jan 2007, 21:05

Theres a nice summary of the whole thing on knocks website.worth a look
Summary? How long was the full thing? (The report on the website is pretty lengthy!)

Slightly disappointed that GLA+LPL wont be offered from the airport. But that could change.

I've been thinking about this, but if they sell seats on the legs between Ireland and the UK they may loose out on transatlantic passengers, such as those joining in the UK taking up the seats to NOC but may get off, leaving less opportunities for passengers from the UK through to the states if the empty seats are not taken up at Knock. Best thing to do is just skip the doubt!

ryan2000

30th Jan 2007, 23:24

What happens if the Globespan 757 arrives and there is a 738 on the ramp?

sawtooth

31st Jan 2007, 13:35

Well I'm sure they plan schedules around other services and the 757 isn't the biggest of birds. Apron space is tight but it easily fits 2 large jets and I have seen them fit a MD80, 738 and A320 on a busy day. They are planning the apron extension, pending Government investment under the NDP.

StephenM_SMC

31st Jan 2007, 18:24

If they can do this, I dont think a 752 & B738 is a problem

http://www.connaughtaeroclub.ie/photos/bigbird.jpg

Anyway they do have a second apron that people can be forced to walk to. :}

EI-BUD

1st Feb 2007, 09:03

Read this morning an interesting interview in the Irish Independent with Liam Scollan , of Knock airport.

The whole mood is very upbeat and its great to see it. He said that the US routes are part of a 5 year agreement with Flyglobespan. In addition he said he doesnt expect easyjet to come back to the airport,no surprise.

All in all he outlined the broader plan for the next few year including a business park.

Next trip to US I think I will support the route and try to use it even though it means driving to the West, I've heard that the parking is much cheaper there !

He was also asked would did he not think Aer Lingus would be a better airline to market and serve the route. He said that Aer Lingus were not at all interested. I wonder will they change their mind on this if the GSM service is a success. I think it will do fine.

sawtooth

1st Feb 2007, 10:34

There’s also an article in on the development funding saying they expect a decision in the next two weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if part of the US flights agreement is dependant on some of the upgrades being in place, especially the ILS CAT II upgrade.

gaelgeoir

1st Feb 2007, 10:58

Cat II ILS installed within three months? Unlikely, given public procurement requirements etc. The Minister's reference to approval subject to the necessary security measures being in place seems to be the only operational hurdle to be cleared.

runawayedge

1st Feb 2007, 17:38

Yes.....I agree funding is required.....to replace the lights 747 pictured above blew away on departure....IAA were most interested as I remember!

ad hoc

1st Feb 2007, 20:07

NY Mayor, Michael Bloomberg will be returning from a trip to Israel and Jordan in the next few days via Knock airport so as to promote the new route to New York.

MarkD

2nd Feb 2007, 14:24

gaelgeoir

public procurement? Thought NOC was a private concern? :confused:

gaelgeoir

2nd Feb 2007, 14:56

If State money is being spent, public procurement regs. apply.

flyerz111

8th Feb 2007, 22:31

Just as well Globespan didn't start this side of the summer if the images of NOC on http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0208/weather_av.html?2217612,null,230 (about 30 seconds from the start) are anything to go by - ATR42 stranded due unable to clear the apron and runways of snow. In fairness, snow is probably rare out there but it looks like they shut the airport all day because of snow.

StephenM_SMC

9th Feb 2007, 10:22

Snow is a rarety in Mayo, theres a great picture on the front of the Irish Times today of 2 Aer Arann pilots walking on the apron infront of their AT43
http://www.ireland.com/homepage/images/1170364041778.jpg

Knock airport was closed for a large part of the day and flights to six British airports from Dublin, Cork and Knock were cancelled or disrupted.

Bmi Baby cancelled two flights on its Knock to Birmingham route and diverted a flight from Manchester, due to land in Knock, to Shannon airport.

Flights into and out of Ireland West Airport, Knock - the highest airport in the country - were either cancelled or postponed because of the heavy snowfalls there. By midday, there was snow cover of up to seven centimetres on the runway, according to Desmond O'Flynn, the airport's customer relations manager.

Source: The Irish Times - ireland.com
http://www.ireland.com/

gaelgeoir

8th Mar 2007, 11:50

It's apparent from comments on the Flyglobespan thread that the GLA-Knock-BOS service is to be operated by a B737-800 this summer. This re-inforces earlier scepticism regarding the passenger (and tourism, and spending) benefits proclaimed by the airport's M.D. when announcing the new routes. Whereas it's probably the perfect aircraft to inaugurate transatlantic service on a thin route, no mention of the equipment proposed can be found in the Flyglobespan website, nor in any publicity around the Knock-Boston service. Irish aviation's best-kept secret?

sawtooth

8th Mar 2007, 13:46

The Flyglobespan chairman specifically said the they were using a "757 extended range" at the launch event in New York and he also mentioned it would have winglets. He may have been referring to the JFK route alone.
But a 738 2 x weekly isn't going to be very attractive long-term on the BOS route.

runawayedge

8th Mar 2007, 16:08

Rumour is that Knock received over €1m from the state to support the US services for what will only amount to 5 or 6 thousand inbound pax. How many of them would have travelled through SNN or DUB anway? Knock will do about 500,000 this year if its lucky after the departure of Easy yet the government seem to have an insatiable appetite for throwing taxpayers funds at it. I will hand it to them though they are really good at overstating PR.

en2r

28th Apr 2007, 20:02

I'd say any chance of BHX going double daily went out the window when FR started EMA. BHX and EMA aren't that far apart

Tom the Tenor

29th Apr 2007, 06:29

Hats off to Knock on how well the New York and Boston bookings are doing. They seem to be getting it all together just at the right time at Knock. One remark about the press release above though. Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech is noble, moving and is surely famous for all the good reasons rather than any way infamous as is stated in Knock's press release. Someone might encourage the team at Knock to have a another look at that bit?

Now, as for infamy, an example might be what the Shannon stopover was to the rest of the country? ;)

virginblue

3rd May 2007, 10:54

This is slightly off-topic, but I shall ask anyway:

I am experiencing difficulties hiring a car at Knock airport arriving on the evening flight from DUB in mid-June. When booking through the usual car brokers, I am told that no pick-up is possible after 1800hrs. I cannot believe that it is impossible to hire a car when arriving from Dublin. Could someone please tell me which companies are open after 1800hrs so that I can tell the broker over here to make a reservation with them?

ad hoc

3rd May 2007, 11:34

Budget meet all confirmed reservations, regardless of time.

gaelgeoir

28th May 2007, 08:50

Any info on how the initial transatlantic services got on over the weekend, anyone?

RE72

28th May 2007, 09:47

AVIS

The AVIS desk at knock stays open until 1915, to accomodate the arrival of the 1900 RE DUB-NOC flight

sawtooth

4th Jun 2007, 11:58

Found some images of the first JFK flight arriving on 09 and.

http://www.castlebar.ie/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=10770

JFK 752 & BOS 737

http://www.castlebar.ie/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=10797

eirbus06

6th Jun 2007, 16:09

How many seats are in the 737-700 when it has reduced seating? :confused:

GEAR_DOWN

6th Jun 2007, 18:46

still 149 pax on the -700. row 1 to 10 pax are not allocated seat B or E to allow for premium seating. ie. No pax between A & C, D & F

airhumberside

7th Aug 2007, 21:19

XL Airways starting LGW-NOC this winter - see their UK site flight timetable. Daily except Saturday service

XL currently serve NOC, with a weekly Bourgas charter

iwak

10th Aug 2007, 19:59

Hope this route does materialise. Didint think any other carrier would challenge Ryanair on its home turf after the easyjet debacle. Take it that it will be a 737 800.

Tom the Tenor

11th Aug 2007, 01:12

Fair play to yez at Knock to go again for Gatwick with XL! Hope it will be a great success - it is richly deserved.

iwak

25th Sep 2007, 21:47

knock to gatwick now bookable on xl operating from December

GW76

25th Sep 2007, 21:57

NOC-LGW with XL....? Very odd route. I give it 6 months, especially starting it mid winter, unless of course they are just making the most of a ferry flight to NOC for an alternative sun route ...?

iwak

25th Sep 2007, 23:11

Odd route! dont think so ,over 150,000 pax carried from jan to october 2006 when Ryanair and Easyjet were flying the route. Was the most successful ever route from Knock.

However it will be interesting to see how Ryanair will react to competition on its profitable knock/london routes

Charlie Roy

26th Sep 2007, 01:15

Problem is that most people in the Knock region don't know of the existence of XL, and never will.

asiolgw

26th Sep 2007, 08:40

The best news I've had in a long time, since MOL forced EZ out of Ireland and then cancelled their own LGW/NOC operation. Let's hope he doesn't see the XLA operation as another thrown down gauntlet to FRs right to be the only carrier on a sector.
Even if XL is not a known brand in Ireland, it's well known in the UK, and I for one will be spreading the word.
Well done XLA.:D

aidoair

26th Sep 2007, 15:57

XL already have some summer holiday flights from Knock this summer using the Dublin based aircraft so its a brand thats beggining to be more recognised in Ireland.

en2r

8th Nov 2007, 11:22

New route to Glasgow with BMI Baby 3 times weekly - Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday. Flights already bookable.

OltonPete

8th Nov 2007, 12:16

That would explain why the Cardiff aircraft appeared to stay in Glasgow
for several hours without doing a flight, I thought that was a bit odd.

Never guessed at GLA - NOC though

Pete

airhumberside

8th Nov 2007, 12:47

baby press release says the route is until end of March only. I presume it will also operate in summer?

aidoair

8th Nov 2007, 12:57

Yes most likely if the demand seems good. It just looks like they are waiting to finalise all their summer schedules before releasing the rest of these flights for sale.

Skipness One Echo

8th Nov 2007, 13:28

Expect Ryanair to announce Prestwick - Knock next month in that case....

sawtooth

9th Nov 2007, 09:04

They just finished the new perimeter fencing and runway inspection road. Fire was upgraded to category 7 earlier in the year, so the infrastructure should be there for 27 CAT II upgrade. 09 should get CAT I also.

iwak

10th Nov 2007, 23:25

It remains to be seen if ryanair will retaliate as they havent reacted very quickly to xl airways lgw/noc announcement.

Good uk network in place now just new york and boston to be sorted for next summer!

ryan2000

11th Nov 2007, 10:23

Ryanair has never really reacted to BMI Baby at Cork or Knock . Easyjet were the only lowcosts to really produce a reaction from them at these airports.

EI-BUD

11th Nov 2007, 10:30

I wouldnt think that Ryanair will launch the Prestwick Knock sector, as the 738 would be a bit big??? Kerry Liverpool wouldnt work so I dont think a Knock Glasgow would be any different with a 738.

While I hope it goes well I think that it will be a tough one for WW. The Embraer was on a few years ago and I remember reading that the demand was terribly bad, with that in mind Baby will need to appeal to the leisure traveller who will go to Knock due to low prices.

dumdumbrain

11th Nov 2007, 10:49

Ryanair does EMA-NOC and works very well, with good loads and sales. . . . So I think Ryanair could do PIK-NOC. After flying into NOC several times I can see why it is such a fast growing route, the views of West Ireland really are amazing year round.

But I just don't under stand why Baby didn't do another sun route, where you have familes going on holiday, those pax who spend a fair bit on the inflight bar service.

And I guess Ryanair hasn't reacted too fast, because at the moment we are expanding, and aircraft are taken up at the new bases, 4 new bases within a month, VLC, ALC, BHD and BRS I think it's just a case of get your priorites right.

Lee

4567

21st Dec 2007, 18:37

Is NOC getting the BOS and JFK services back ?

sawtooth

10th Jan 2008, 10:48

The airport management said they were looking for a new carrier to maintain the routes and avoid a repeat of the globespan issues last summer and hinted at an announcement later this year. Not sure who could work the routes, unless they were split with ORK or another UK airport.

NOC is to get a full Garda immigration unit from March. Not sure if that is related to US flights.

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5i98ZMbgj-vvCLLVcqJNWLOhhAdug

Roll to the end

14th Jan 2008, 11:11

Knock have released their passenger numbers 567,000.
Which is down on 2007, but they expect a rise to 700000 in 2008.

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/news.asp?ID=236&dbtype=News

iwak

26th Feb 2008, 23:03

Just tried pricing a flight from Knock to East midlands on ryanair then hit new search at end of screen which brought me to a new booking screen which shows London Gatwick as one of the drop down options from Knock. Are Ryanair feeling the pinch from XL?

sawtooth

26th Feb 2008, 23:33

2 x Gatwick would be nice, and there should still be good demand in the region given the loss of SNN - LHR. But FRs previous history on the route has proven to be purely tactical. So not surprising, they have to do something with all those aircraft.

Looking at the UK CAA stats January FR loads are down but not unusually so for time of year and current economic climate. XL haven't had a massive start considering how many previously used the route, however it's only 2 months in with summer to come, they are still a new brand in the Irish market and the times are a bit random.

Bmi Baby are adding an extra Sunday flight to MAN. The airports phase 1 departure terminal expansion got the go ahead this week also, it will increase the passenger handling capacity to 800,000.

iwak

27th Feb 2008, 00:16

I hope they dont loose xl , although had Ryanair been the carrier on the lgw route this time we probably would have seen bigger passenger numbers being carried in the first two months.

Any idea how the glasgow route is performing?

Thanks

Roll to the end

27th Feb 2008, 13:48

I was actually on the Glasgow flight last week my first ever flight from Knock. I was surprised that it was almost full, that was during the week and I came back on the Sunday but it was maybe 60% full. So it must have its good and bad days.

Regarding Ryanair coming back on the LGW flight I think it would be good both airlines offer completely different services. XL is kind of in this day and age a full service airline they don’t charge for bags.

iwhak

27th Feb 2008, 15:51

When if ever are NOC and the Irish government going to get real about this airport's potential. Firstly, the only positive thing about NOC is their ability to generate self hype and get away with blatantly erroneous PR. Take for example the US services of last year, talking about bringing millions to the region, tens of thousands of passengers etc. It came to nothing, even though the Irish government invested 2m in this one route alone in marketing support, crazy. They were talking a couple of years ago at being at 1m pax this year, they will be lucky to do 600k. How can NOC with no catchment area possibly support two carriers on one route? Has onyone looked at XLs figures, especially in light of the other London services! I am close to NOC and I could rant on further, but let's get real, it's all talk, but no substance, and a lot of carriers have lost a lot of money on NOC operations, they do have a future, but let's be real about what it is.

iwak

27th Feb 2008, 16:57

Sounds promising on the Glasgow front considering its only 2 weeks off the ground.

As regards pax figures for this year knock is looking at 700k with around 600k scheduled and 90k caharter. These figures are based on current services and will only grow.

The us flights were a big success and a 5 year contract had been signed with flyglobespan. However it was flyglobespan that pulled the plug due to the huge amount of aircrat problems and also lack of demand in liverpool. Flights were achieving an 80-90% load factor with knock sector filling the bulk of seats each flight. So it is clear there is a definite demand for these flights and will return with another carrier im sure.

iwhak

27th Feb 2008, 17:29

iwak....no axe to grind, but in a nutshell, XL need now to be protected on LGW and allowed to grow the market and yield. No more debacles like last year. SNN is the airport with the infrastructure for transatlantic along the West Coast - the total population along the Western seaboard is approx. 1 million people, there are bigger European cities with no US services, the West has one, no need for another. Heard Flyglobespan were not getting the yield. It is hard to see where 600k pax will come from on scheduled alone, let's hope it does, but don't encourage services for the sake of it, focus on sustainable business, and if XL faces competition on LGW I hope the competitor pays the full published charges in line with EU.

StephenM_SMC

27th Feb 2008, 18:11

How can NOC with no catchment area possibly support two carriers on one route?

Where did the 567k passengers appear out of in the last year then?

I'm guessing the only reason there was such huge demand for LGW when Ryanair and EasyJet were on it, was the resulting bargin fares of having those two cutting into each other. I wouldn't expect any less than Ryanair to restart LGW and close it again if XL Pulled off the route.

840

27th Feb 2008, 18:35

iwhak->EU rules about airlines paying the published prices only apply to public airports. Knock is privately owned, so can make whatever deals it likes.

That said, I agree that it would be counter-productive to give Ryanair preferential rates compared to XL. It would mean that no other operators would touch the airport in future.

iwhak

27th Feb 2008, 22:17

840.....your interpretation on the EU rules is incorrect, in fact the Irish public airportscome under less scrutiny from the DOT than the regionals, it is a questionable policy, but becuase they receive 'grant aid' from the Department the DOT effectively tell them how to run their business. Up until two years ago NOC was heavily subsidised. After they received their capex 20 odd million this has been cut back, but I can assure you Dept. look at regionals a lot more than the state airports!

sawtooth

28th Feb 2008, 10:20

Hi iwhak, not having a go but I don't understand some of your points:

When if ever are NOC and the Irish government going to get real about this airport's potential.What has a private company launching a route from a private airport go to do with the government?

Firstly, the only positive thing about NOC is their ability to generate self hype and get away with blatantly erroneous PR.I accept they have been in the news a lot with route launches and site development, but all small airports rely on media and PR to get the message out about their services and compete with the state airports.

Take for example the US services of last year, talking about bringing millions to the region, tens of thousands of passengers etc.I presume you are referring to the initial projection of 45000 passengers on the 2 routes and their prospective tourism spending. This would have been the capacity on the route, so yes there was an element of marketing spin, but isn't that normal of most business launches.

It came to nothing, even though the Irish government invested 2m in this one route alone in marketing support, crazy.I'm not saying NOC should or can sustain a transatlantic service, especially with current oil prices/economic outlook. But they did carry almost 35,000 and the airport reported high load factors for the summer above 75% on both, hardly a disaster given that many commentators would have said it had zero potential. FlyGlobespan were the weak link due to their internal organisation problems, ETOPs aircraft issues, and lack of demand from LPL. FlyGlobespan bit off more than they could chew and have stopped virtually all of their transatlantic operations this year from the UK.

As for government investment the tourism board invested in regional marketing, that is their remit as an organisation, and they pointed out at the time that the North West was in need of tourism investment as it is last on the list fro US visitors.

They were talking a couple of years ago at being at 1m pax this year, they will be lucky to do 600k. How can NOC with no catchment area possibly support two carriers on one route?Their long term development plan aimed for 1m by 2010, if connections to European hubs and US could be achieved.

NOC has had several years of double digit growth, however when 2 services are lost in a year (FR/U2 -LGW) from a small airport it is always going to have an impact on the bottom line. 2006 figures passenger were probably artificially higher due to Ryanais fare war with U2. However NOC have added 4 UK new routes in 2007 and the holiday charters continue to grow as a signifigant part of the business, so 700,000 should be realistic this year.

Has onyone looked at XLs figures, especially in light of the other London services! I am close to NOC and I could rant on further, but let's get real, it's all talk, but no substance, and a lot of carriers have lost a lot of money on NOC operations, they do have a future, but let's be real about what it is.Ryanair enjoy good yields on their NOC - London services, with average load actors in the 70 - 85% area. So it is not surprising that they will react to competition, what is unfortunate is when this ends in the total loss of a route as in 2006.

Airlines like any other business will provide a service if it is profitable, Easyjet lost money because of fierce competition, what's the problem, they weren't forced to use the airport.

iwak....no axe to grind, but in a nutshell, XL need now to be protected on LGW and allowed to grow the market and yield. No more debacles like last year.Agree totally, but NOC aren't in a position to say no to a new FR route and piss off their largest carrier.

SNN is the airport with the infrastructure for transatlantic along the West Coast - the total population along the Western seaboard is approx. No problem with SNN, lucky to have such a facility on the west coast at all and it serves our needs very well, though from the North West Dublin is as close. Some will argue that seasonal direct connections to the North West should be developed for tourism as currently the majority of US visitors ignore the region, focusing on the Shannon, Kerry/Cork and Dublin.

don't encourage services for the sake of it, focus on sustainable business, and if XL faces competition on LGW I hope the competitor pays the full published charges in line with EU.Again I agree totally, while a morning and evening european hub connection would be the ideal, it would only be of use if both are operated by the same carrier longterm. But again they are a small airport and FR have a lot of power.

The MD Liam Scollan has given some insightful interviews recently where makes a clear business case for quality, sustainable development of the airport for the propose connectivity aiding regional tourism and business, a refreshing voice when compared to the poor mouth "we deserve" attitude of some western campaigners.

Up until two years ago NOC was heavily subsidised.Forgive my ignorance but how was NOC "heavily subsidised"? A far as I can see prior to the Transport 21 infrastructure package for regional airports in 07 NOC received virtually no investment over the last decade other than the odd WDC, Board Failte tourism grant. The only subsidy being on the EU Public Service Obligation route to Dublin.

iwhak

28th Feb 2008, 10:41

sawtooth....nice reply, not intended as criticism, and you have put points forward very well. Points are, it is well known that Tourism Ireland put nearly €2m in to last year's US services. The state announced infrastructure grants last year worth over €20m, and up until then gave in the region of 750k marketing support annually, and have effectively bankrolled NOC since inception, that is why the state have such an influence in its affairs, in that every capex expenditure must go through the same procurement process as the state does. The infrastructure as stated already is in place to support US routes - at SNN. On route incentives NOC must submit their subvention programme to the Dept. for approval, as all other Irish regionals do. Mr Scallon projected at the launch of the US services that the services would bring 35k inbound pax with a spend of €28m to the West region, that makes 70k in total, that was a load factor in excess of 100%, in the end the figures were half his projections at a very low yield, it's not just numbers. With regard to LGW why allow competition, because at the end of the day you were left with no LGW service. There is no doubt there is a catchment area, but it's a very very small one, NOC has done well in recent years, but it's too overstated and opinionated, Mr Scallon was on national TV and issuing press releases over the EI SNN/LHR issue, why? Don't get me wrong I wish it well, but more substance please, too many failed starts!

iwak

26th Mar 2008, 13:29

I see Ryanair going double daily to stansted from summer timetable obviously a retaliation to xl .

Any news on what Glasgow loads are like?

Angry Rebel

26th Mar 2008, 13:56

Regarding government support/"subsidy" for Knock, the Western Development Commission currently help Knock, as Shannon Development help Shannon. Both constitute government money being spent.

sawtooth

5th Aug 2008, 08:50

Mixed news for Ireland West Airport Knock and air access to the North West this week. Passenger numbers at the airport are up 20% for the first 6 months, but the current economic conditions will make it tough for regional airports to grow in the coming year.

Building work on the new departure terminal has been underway for the last two months, space which is badly needed especially at weekends where charter and scheduled departures in the same time slots can stretch the current facilities. Works are also underway on the CATII ILS/lighting upgrades, RESAs and preparatory work for the extended Apron. The government are cutting-back €13m in regional airport investment, blaming the slow drawdown of funding, no details of where from yet. Cutbacks are understandable with the current public finances falling, but weren't Transport 21/NDP investments supposed to be ring-fenced?

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/images/iwak02.jpg

No word on the Dublin PSO yet after Cityjet declined the contract citing lack of aircraft due to a delay in completing their VLM merger. FR have said they will apply to run a midday service, which is outside the terms of the original PSO and probably unsustainable as most users on the route are business people seeking an early morning connection to Dublin.

XL are to end the daily NOC - LGW route from September 2nd saying the current economic climate and oil prices have resulted in a re-focus on its core leisure business. Loads for last month were 60% and they had invested a lot in building the brand in the region, but FR have been heavily discounting STN and LTN in competition all summer and added 2nd STN rotations on peak days. Obviously there is demand on the route (the only hub link in the region), but it will be hard to see anyone taking on FR for a third time. The airports best hope of route growth in the coming months is continued expansion of FR routes to the UK and Europe, FR now operate 5 routes from NOC with the addition of LPL next month, they could be persuaded to base an aircraft with the right deal, as they are currently doing at KIR.

EI-BUD

5th Aug 2008, 09:52

Sawtooth I read with interest your post, you said that Ryanair have applied to run a mid day service on Knock Dublin? That's amazing. I remember when they did an EMB on the route I remember in one of the time tables they did 2 flights on monday wednesday and Friday !

If MOL wants to operate this route it is clearly for the love of the place as it is madness in financial terms. I read that when Aer Arann did the route it was like 10-15 pax per flight, however, I dont know how accurate this is.

I have to say that I think that Ryanair has been kind to Knock Airport and since the new directors have come on Ryanair has added extra routes and MOL has been around the place for photos etc, I think that he gets on well with them. What do you think?

EI-BUD

sawtooth

5th Aug 2008, 10:34

MOL just wants to take the PSO money so no one else benefits, he has stated many times he is against PSO, as he is against most aviation spending that doesn't go to his bottom line.

From my own anecdotal experience of the Dublin route the flight usually had around 25-30 pax morning and evening. The main users are the business community going to Dublin meetings or catching onward connections from DUB. Others use it to access medical services or leisure. But to dismiss a PSO service because it is not commercially profitable is ridiculous given the founding premise of the hundreds of European PSO schemes it that they provide a public service on routes that would not otherwise be economically viable. Driving from the North West still takes 3 hrs and the earliest trains do not arrive into Dublin before 10.30, were better road and rail links available it would not be needed. Many have said GWY and KIR would be commercially viable today, so should they be the be removed from PSO?

I can't comment on the airports relationship with FR (I have no connection with them), there is a lot of history there as NOC-STN is one of their longest running routes and high yield from what I hear. But the airports management are very proactive and innovative in providing route support. Despite what MOL says about the regional airports future it also suits FR to serve the UK regions from NOC and take market share from RE/WW.

virginblue

5th Aug 2008, 10:55

What stops aer Arann from picking up the pieces on the DUB route? Their flight used to be little more than a tag-on for one of the DUB-based ATRs, with the aircraft overnighting at NOC rather than at DUB. I assume that the POS money was attractive enough in the past, so why don't they try to keep the flights now that Cityjet has pulled out?

iwhak

5th Aug 2008, 12:22

Well O'Leary strikes again.....sole operator at Kerry, now Knock and he may as well be at Shannon, his strategy is working, clear out the rest, and then he'll slowly reduce services to kill off the regionals. I expect a major FR blow to Shannon is on the way! Sawtooth there is no financial case for a PSO on NOC it should have been abandonded years ago. It's interesting that you say you have no association with NOC yet all your posts have been on that airport and at times very quick on announcements. What's the bet FR reduce frequency at NOC or LTN for the winter! Finally, I hope that the major cuts in the capex programme happen at NOC as there is no financial case to support it, its business case was based on a flawed transatlantic dream! As previously the only thing NOC are exceptional at is political lobbying and PR in support of a non-existent business case. Waiting for the backlash!

EI-BUD

5th Aug 2008, 12:29

But to dismiss a PSO service because it is not commercially profitable is ridiculous given the founding premise of the hundreds of European PSO schemes it that they provide a public service on routes that would not otherwise be economically viable

SAWTOOTH
Are you saying that simply because a PSO route gets funds it automatically becomes viable?

Why on earth would Ryanair put a daily 738 onto a route that may achieve at most 50 pax each way, one which wont allow for Business passengers? (ie timings as suggested).

Ryanair is a commercial organisation and must deliver shareholder return, and they should make decisions on a commerical basis.

If it was a smaller aircraft with realistic operating economics for the route that would make perfect sense. I would also suggest that Aer Arann would be after the route if it delivered a return, I would also suggest that it does not.

Some of my colleagues who have used the flight say that there are mostly fewer than 15 pax, but at a level of 25-30 as you suggest I would take it Aer Arann could make it work given the fares and the grant?

EI-BUD

5th Aug 2008, 12:45

So XL Airways are now abandoning the Gatwick route and Ryanair have ensured that they get out due to their usual carry on, rock bottom fares, and increased frequency on STN route and a rotation to LTN. Let see what frequency that they have next summer, anything less than 3 a day (2 to STN, 1 to LTN) and it a case should be taken against Ryanair by XL for predatory behaviour? Their new approach to XL ie instead of flying head to head on LGW they flooded the market with seats and prices on other airports. Liverpool failed in the past for Ryanair, and they will fly 40% full aircraft on this route until WW drop Manchester. Same as for BHX, how long will WW sustain BHX while Ryanair are on EMA?

IWHAK-alot of what you are saying is true, Ryanair has gone public about its Shannon situation and we can expect a major row to erupt, surprising that they have not announced a grounding of at least 1 aircraft at Shannon this winter, if things are so bad.

en2r

5th Aug 2008, 12:54

sole operator at Kerry, now Knock
Ryanair isn't the sole operator at Kerry or Knock. Aer Arann operate to Manchester from Kerry and BMI Baby operate to Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow from Knock.

sawtooth

5th Aug 2008, 13:23

Quote "Are you saying that simply because a PSO route gets funds it automatically becomes viable?"

Not at all, I have no interest supporting any individual PSO. There's a lot of the criticism of the PSO system in the media at the moment which seems to miss the whole point of the PSO. I simply pointed out that the purpose of Public Service Obligation flights is to provide a public service where it would not be commercially viable otherwise. I'ts a subsidised service, like rail or buses profit is not it's key measure. The public service is presumably providing feeder services between the capital / main hub on the island and the regions airports.

Now if the public service is questionable that criticism should be directed towards government policy, or lack of. I don't know why MOL is propping up the PSO system he gives out about so much, I can only assume he want's to damage his competition. Of course it would be better served with a smaller aircraft, I doubt the government would be so daft as to agree to his plan, but this is a commercial tender and comes down to the best bid at the end of the day.

IWHAK

As a member of the western business community my interest is in promoting good air access to the region. This is the airports forum on a public airline news website, so when I find relevant news I pass it on.

iwhak

5th Aug 2008, 13:46

Sawtooth.......no the PSO subsidises a route that provides critical air access to/from peripheral/disadvantaged regions. The PSO is a subsidy, and that only, the route must still generate additional revenue from moving pax. However, as BUD correctly stated the numbers were more 10-15, so even with the subsidy it was lossmaking on a S340, insufficient demand. Did FR apply for NOC, because if not it is my understanding that it must be offered to the other tenderers in turn. en2r, yes point taken, I was talking however in general terms, and do predict that it is only a matter of time before FR are the sole players.

sawtooth

5th Aug 2008, 14:05

IWHAK "Did FR apply for NOC, because if not it is my understanding that it must be offered to the other tenderers in turn"

MO'L claims to have applied after Cityjet declined the route.

Extract from his presentation to the Joint Committe on Transport:

Mr. Michael O’Leary: We wrote to the Department of Transport in recent days because we understand that whoever won the Dublin-Knock tender will not now operate the route. We have again stepped into the breach to rescue the regions of Ireland by informing the Department of Transport that we will operate the Dublin-Knock route, but as a mid-day service. If the Department wants it, it can have it.

iwhak

5th Aug 2008, 14:33

Sawtooth.......Did FR apply in the original tender process, if not it must be offered to the next unsuccessful candidate, FR can't just pip up and say we will operate it....there is a process!

sawtooth

5th Aug 2008, 15:14

As I said MO'L claims to have applied after Cityjet declined the route. I'm only going by what has been said in the public domain. I would presume it has been offered to Aer Arann who did also apply.

MarkD

6th Aug 2008, 20:23

Airports like NOC should start preparing for a world without PSOs. When Kyoto starts to bite, and Ireland will clearly be in trouble there, subsidising air travel will start to look very off. With the improvements in the rail service implemented and planned, GWY's subsidy should already be looking shaky.

As for FR - it's one thing to step up to an unaccepted/withdrawn PSO, as RE has done at least twice with Loganair and Euroceltic, but it's another thing to refuse to operate as tendered - I wonder if the impact on economic development of a flight unhelpful to business travellers would give Brussels cause to intervene, as they sign off on PSOs I believe.

StephenM_SMC

6th Aug 2008, 21:53

Airports like NOC should start preparing for a world without PSOs.

As far as I am aware Dublin is the only PSO route, and it seems to manage just fine without it?

iwak

8th Aug 2008, 23:26

On a positive note bmi baby are retaining a weekend service to glasgow over the winter months. Im sure a friday and sunday service will be more popular than the current tue/thur and sunday.As for the Dublin route I could see Aer Arann taking the route with an upweighted subsidy .

They originally put in a tender along with cityjet so they must have made something on the route.

Last I heard the route carried 18,000 pax anually that was at the last pso tender in 2005.

Roll to the end

9th Aug 2008, 12:39

Aer Arann did ok on the route to be fair when ever i was back on it there were about 25 or so pax but some days were very bad.

From what i have heard is that aer arann dont have the a/c to operate the route. Since they lost kerry aswell they leased out an a/c dont no if theres ne truth in it......

iwhak

9th Aug 2008, 21:52

markd......your mouth and brain don't seem to be connected! Heard a rumour that airport management courted Cityjet and voiced objections to RE. It now appears it may be a Scottish J31, RE were perfect for Knock but as the airport heads lost the run of themselves openly stating they didn't like turboprops it seems to have backfired.......badly!

iwak

9th Aug 2008, 23:09

Cityjet were never going to operate a jet on the route it was going to be a vlm f50 but the takeover of vlm by cityjet has taken longer than expected. I do think that cityjet should have handed the route back at least a month before start date to give the dept of transport some time to get the situation sorted.

sawtooth

10th Aug 2008, 12:56

iwhak: "Heard a rumour that airport management courted Cityjet.....It now appears it may be a Scottish J31"

Now who's the insider :) But thanks for the info.

NOC would obviously love to get a new carrier in, especially WX who might have been able to develop the route with an interline connection to a hub like CDG. Nothing against RE but they are unlikely to offer any growth at NOC as their current strategy is to avoid competing directly with the jet carriers and are committed to their home base in GWY.

I'd be happy see the money spent on decent early-bird train service to the west introduced and end the constant winging about PSO subsides.

virginblue

10th Aug 2008, 15:02

Isn't there some sort of penalty clause built into the PSO contract? I am surprised that an airline can walk away from the PSO contract within days of the agreed start-up date. I mean although it is not a flight chartered by government, it is, with big tax payers' money involved, not a regular commercial route either on which airlines can do as they please.

I note on Jethro's that Highland are due to acquire two more Jetsream 41s in addition to the two acquired for corporate shuttles - so might thse 29 seaters be an option as well?

Realistically, most of the PSO routes only require a 40-50 seater, if at all. So with Aer Arann disposing of their ATR42s, the ATR72s seems to be a bit of an capacity overkill on the long run to places such as Derry, Knock, Sligo or Carrickfin. Maybe time for another operator with a better suited fleet composition?

MarkD

10th Aug 2008, 21:24

iwak - not sure where exactly you're going with your ad hominem there.

Given that the PSO is public money on a State issued tender (http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=10340&lang=ENG&loc=432), I'm not sure what NOC was doing "courting" one airline over another as you posted above, but I'd be delighted for you to enlighten us on that one.

Incidentally, since the 2008 tender (PDF1 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:025:0017:0019:EN:PDF), PDF2 (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:024:0011:0011:EN:PDF)) revises the 2005 tender (PDF (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2005:039:0006:0006:EN:PDF)) but not in respect of aircraft type/size, how does a Jetstream 31 meet the following requirement - or is the government allowed to negotiate it away if a tender is not accepted by the first choice?

2.2 Type of aircraft used:
(a) The services must be operated by pressurised aircraft with a minimum capacity of 30 passenger seats;

liffy2A

11th Aug 2008, 14:27

Just for a little info VirginBlue an Atr 72 is just fractionally more expensive to operate than a 42.Hence Aer Aranns decision to have mainly 72s. The main cost on the Noc route would be overnighting the extra Cabin crew Member.I hope Aerarann get the Noc pso again I can tell you an Atr is alot more comfortable and modern than A Jetstream or a Fokker 50.

iwhak

11th Aug 2008, 15:25

Markd......it has been well known that while the airports, have no final say in the tender process the Department do seek an opinion form them. In this case NOC being smart thought well let's support Cityjet and we might get a CDG service by default if the aircraft was to go there. However, it backfired, and currently the route lies idle. In relation to the 30 seats, that is the maximum number of seats the PSO will support and finally a J31 is pressurised.

MarkD

12th Aug 2008, 02:56

In relation to the 30 seats, that is the maximum number of seats the PSO will support
No iwak - it says MINIMUM, right there in the quote. Show me where any reference to a maximum of 30 appears in the tender docs.

iwak

12th Aug 2008, 19:27

Agree Liffey

I would rather walk than fly in a jetstream its like a flying pencil. Many passengers didnt like the saab when Loganair were flying the route , I think they were spoiled with the ATR however I wouldnt say no to a f50.

sawtooth

12th Aug 2008, 20:15

Apparently there was an article in the Sunday Times about Highland Airways getting the PSO next week (no link online) so probably a Jetstream 41 if it has to follow the letter of the contract.

The ATR was fine, and I liked the Dash 8 when Air SouthWest covered some routes AerArann last winter, really friendly crew too.

liffy2A

12th Aug 2008, 22:41

I have seen the article in a western paper too, I hope this is not the case. I would prefer to see an Irish carrier be awarded the route first especially when they have bid for it and have a more comfortable aircraft. I hope the thought of Aranns monopoly on the pso routes does not play a factor because of some rants in the media as they do have the correct aircraft to operate the route if they can.Even Ryanair after that but a 738 is total over kill.I think these would be a sounder options after loganair being awarded the route before dropping it out of the blue.

sawtooth

13th Aug 2008, 00:14

Or Cityjet could be contracting the route out, not sure what the legality is of refusing to take up the tender.

iwak

24th Aug 2008, 17:20

Oleary is quoted in the irish times saying he wants to operate the knock pso route and has sent two letters expressing his interest but still hasnt heard any reply from the department of transport.

The only way he could operate the route would be to base an aircraft in Knock similar to what he has done in Kerry.

It also stated in the article that cityjet were trying to offload the route to highland airways the j41 is one seat below the required min of 30 seats each way I wonder would this be acceptable or maybe they might lease an aircraft to service the route and operate an inverness dublin sector since aer arann are pulling the route.

JDB1052

2nd Sep 2008, 21:10

Aer Arran have Dublin to Knock back on sale again for travel from October.

Charlie Roy

2nd Sep 2008, 21:46

And some details:

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=61)
RTÉ Business: Aer Arann to restart Knock PSO route (http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0902/aerarann.html)

There is currently no service on the route as CityJet pulled out, having won the tender earlier this year. Aer Arann had operated the route until July.
Aer Arann will provide a daily early morning service from Knock to Dublin and an evening return service, beginning on October 1.

iwak

3rd Sep 2008, 00:00

Thats great news I thought they were ruled out due to lack of aircraft but obviously not. It was looking like highland airways there for a while but give me an atr anyday over a j41.

EI-BUD

3rd Sep 2008, 20:16

iwak- I was in Aberdeen some time ago and watched a J41 of Eastern push itself back , it was amazing!

I also prefer ATR! But it probably will be 42?

Captain Planet

4th Sep 2008, 18:13

Both 72 and 42's can push themsleves back too. Arann just don't do it.

CP.

UFGBOY

5th Sep 2008, 07:39

RE back on route 1 x a day from 01 October

iwak

14th Jan 2009, 13:45

Hi guys

More positive news for knock today with the introduction of the first international scheduled route to alicante with ryanair. Considering all the doom and gloom knock is still moving onwards and upwards. Aer lingus returning in march with a daily lgw service and new terminal opening in march .

On the negative side glasgow seems to be gone after winter timetable.Personally I think that route would be more suited to a flybe dash 8.Wont be a big loss as it was only twice weekly.

On another topic Ryanairs challenge on the Knock pso being awarded to aer arann is in the commercial court on jan 20th so we may see ryanair doing double daily on the dublin route should the route be retendered.

iwhak

14th Jan 2009, 15:04

iwak....

For once I have to agree.....the fortunes of NOC have not been badly affected by the seismic downturn, unlike Galway, which is now a ghost town. Incidentally mentioning Galway, has anyone noticed that they have introduced a turning pad on the 26 end, and most unusually with inner taxiway markings, however, if you follow the markings you end up with a mainwheel in the grass, surely this is an incident waiting to happen, particularly an unfamilar jock at nightime. But, back on track yes well done to NOC. How's the rest of the management keeping up there wak? :)

airnoc

14th Jan 2009, 21:42

fr twice daily from std in apr.
is this a hit at EI:rolleyes:

iwak

14th Jan 2009, 22:25

Hi airnoc

This is the same as last year and they have been twice daily at the weekends over the winter timetable.

I wouldnt be surprised if fr stepped in to do glasgow or maybe even edinburgh for the summer. Edinburgh would be great !

airnoc

26th Jan 2009, 21:27

Congrat to Liam Scollan on now being chairman. Glad that Joe kennedy has stay onboard http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif.
Interesting to see which Fr or EI will launch the next European route into Knock now that ryanair has fail so far in its bid for Aer lingus.
Is Bmi baby gone from the glasgow route should try Edinburgh route.

iwhak

27th Jan 2009, 09:51

Airnoc.....would you mind de-coding your last post! Edindurgh is a non starter.....FR are struggling with it out of SNN and RE currently operate it from Galway.

sawtooth

27th Jan 2009, 10:28

I think he's referring to management changes at the airport. Liam Scollan is to become chairman replacing Joe kennedy.

Scollan in new role as Knock chairman - Irish - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/scollan-in-new-role-as-knock-chairman-1614429.html)

Also noted in the article that they made a modest profit in 08, a rare achievement for any airport, so they do seem to be doing well given the current market and considering they say they receive no annual subsidy.

Angry Rebel

27th Jan 2009, 11:10

That profit was in 2006. Given that quite a lot has changed since then, the picture is probably very different now....

Also refers to the PSOs which is a common mistake as it's the airlines that benfit most from the PSOs...

iwhak

27th Jan 2009, 11:50

Angry rebel.....actually no it's the airports that benefit most, because they get to charge their full published rates, which are amongst the industry highest (landing and pax). Have a look at the charges for the regionals. As an aside during the few mins I spent looking at the charges Galway's shedule of charges seems to be copied from BOH's, is there a link there?

sawtooth

27th Jan 2009, 14:31

Scollan is on record at the Dail Transport Committee saying they were profitable in 2008. From their website:

“Contrary to some perceptions, Ireland West Knock provides low cost aviation charges and is a profitable and independent airport receiving no operational subsidy with 97% of traffic stemming from international connections to 28 destinations,” said Mr. Scollan.

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_archive_details.aspx?id=120)

Sikpupi

27th Jan 2009, 22:45

Yep.. they're doing all right.

Does any know - do Ryanair have their own staff in there to look after their flights etc??? If so... that's a handy saving on the Knock payroll!! Which of course helps the bottom line!!

They have done alright on the auld Capital Development Grants - good luck to them. They obviously had a crystal ball and seen what was coming down the line...recession!!!

Angry Rebel

28th Jan 2009, 07:25

From work I've done with Knock in the past my understanding was the main way they benefited was in charging a premium for "out of hours" [you can define that any you want when you run the airport!]. This meant being able to take a bit of extra cream compared to the standard rates, as any PSO operator would always be doing early morning and late evening rotations.

sawtooth

28th Jan 2009, 09:29

Sikpupi "Does any know - do Ryanair have their own staff in there to look after their flights etc???"

No Ryanair don't do handling and only employ airport staff at their bases. The airport have their own handling company - Ireland West Airport Handling.

Sikpupi

28th Jan 2009, 09:32

Saw...thanks for the clarification. Thought that it would be too good to be true!!!

iwak

28th Jan 2009, 12:42

Ryanair actually do have their own check in staff and ticket desk at knock .They have had their own uniformed staff there for years. Knock looks after all ramp activities for ryanair though. Even when you ring the airport you are given an option to transfer to the ryanair office.

Knock handeling provide check in for all other carriers.Anyone know have they opened the new check in hall yet?

Sikpupi

28th Jan 2009, 16:12

ooooohhh!!! So. as I said earlier...there is a saving to Knock on wages here!! 3-4 Staff could save the €100k a year that other airports have to pay. All helps the bottom line!!! Strange that one...do they provide Checkin Staff in other airports like SNN & ORK which one would consider bigger airports???

iwak

12th Aug 2009, 00:18

Well another good day for knock with the announcement of a thrice weekly service to leeds.I always thought this would have been a good route for jet2 but however thankyou to Ryanair.

Knock has a good solid UK schedule now with the exception of Bristol which doesent get the greatest of load factors

I still think edinburgh would be a good route for Knock better than Glasgow with it being a good city break destination. Jet 2 or flybe maybe.

It would be Good to see a few other airline brands come into the mix at Knock to keep Ryanair on their toes.

Well done to Knock:ok:

EI-BUD

12th Aug 2009, 17:21

Ryanair did used to operate a twice weekly Leeds Bradford to Knock service in the late 80s. A few years before they reinvented themselves before the opening of the new Stansted.

It was BAC 1-11s, which were a great little plane!

Sober Lark

12th Aug 2009, 17:44

"It was BAC 1-11s, which were a great little plane!"

Yes, they were so loud sitting in Dublin you could still hear them over Strumble!

airnoc

14th Aug 2009, 21:25

How are charters flights doing and load factor.
Are the lourdes flights as busy as last year?
Any new charters flights for next year?

Airbus321-200

14th Aug 2009, 23:59

Monarch was a new charter carrier to Knock this year. I think the average load factor for these flights have been 90-100%. People dont want to go to DUB,ORK or SNN anymore to go on holiday!!

Well done knock airport. Just need a bigger ramp area!

Shamrock350

15th Aug 2009, 01:20

Aer Lingus carried 8111 passengers on their LGW-NOC route in July compared to 7336 in June so it's continuing to do well throughout the summer. Hopefully it will be able to hold it's own during the winter.

EI-BUD

15th Aug 2009, 08:37

It is encouraging to see the LGW flight grow. The load factor for July was 76% which is very good.

However, Ryanair's STN flights showed good growth over last year at 16128 (giving load factor of just below 70% (assuming 2 a day frequency)up from 6988 same month LY.

Elsewhere;
Birmingham 6011 TY 6676 LY
Manchester6174 TY 8385 LY
Liverpool No record in CAA stats for this route. Strange
East Midlands No figures returned for 09. LY 4905
Luton 9485 TY 10217 LY
Bristol 0 TY 3993 LY
Glasgow 0 TY 2092 LY

Overall on the UK routes it shows a drop in passengers, however that measure excludes Liverpool and East Midlands. Making an assumption of these 2 routes numbers being similar to last year I think that the airport did quite well for the month.

However as stated earlier Charter work doing well this year (not sure on year on year numbers) aswell as the new Alicante route which is only 2 per week. Some good performances especially STN and LGW!

Roll to the end

15th Aug 2009, 19:52

I used the LGW flight to connect from Dubai last month, service was grand, few empty seats but the crew said its one of their good flights, people buying a lot.

Apparently all Charters doing very but the obvious problem is baby, will it withstand Ryanair? BHX is surely feeling the pressure!

But they are Cat II now and have a nice modern extension to the terminal hopefully will be able to hold on through the summer.

Will be trying out the Alicante flight next month so it'll be interesting to see how its performing.
:)

airnoc

16th Aug 2009, 21:48

Why was the aer arann flight from dublin cancel this evening.
Was it because of mist or fog at the airport?

sawtooth

17th Aug 2009, 09:18

No, METAR was for broken cloud 1200 ft and 14kt winds, so nothing too challenging but I believe Aer Arann pilots/aircraft aren't CAT II rated, often divert from ORK in low cloud base situations. Or it may have been a tech aircraft in DUB.

iwhak

17th Aug 2009, 12:09

Iwak.....personally I think the FR announcement of a 3x weekly LBA is bad news. It is in my view FR applying further pressure on Baby, and is saying hands off to any carrier interested in moving in should Baby falter. You will not see any further scheduled brands at NOC in the near future, in fact you may see a dilution. FR are repeating at NOC to a lesser extent what they did at SNN.

sawtooth

17th Aug 2009, 13:03

While there is a sizable Irish community around Leeds and the NE, I agree with iwhak, it will further dilute BMI numbers on MAN, with LPL to the West and EMA to the South. BMIs numbers are down a couple of thousand compared to the years before EMA/LPL, though the LF held up last month at 70% (they may benefit a little over the winter from FR pulling SNN - MAN). The 733 is a good size for Babys routes, but many of Ryaniars regional routes would be better served with something smaller like A319 or RJs.

iwak

17th Aug 2009, 14:24

I honestly dont agree with you I think lba can co exist with man. There is a huge west of ireland community in the north of england and a knock connection has been looked for for a long time.

I would say the airport offer a deal of some sort to lure airlines onto routes and I would imagine that they wouldnt be handing out money for one route to lose another .

I would not be surprised if Aer lingus took up the man route should baby go ,I dont think fr would let anybody else operate a bhx service since they have a base there. Im sure this has been discussed already and a plan is in place.

In times like these its about getting growth and in fairness to knock they have been adding to their list of destinations whilst others have been loosing them. However they need to be careful not to put all their eggs in the one basket with regard to Ryanair.

Shamrock350

17th Aug 2009, 15:01

I don't think Aer Lingus will plan anymore expansion from Knock, at best there might be a twice daily to Gatwick but I'd say that's a long way off. Can't see them starting MAN but then again you just never know with Aer Lingus.

Roll to the end

17th Aug 2009, 15:07

There is a huge market from the north of england to the west, but how many of these have been travelling to manchester? But the flight does well at the moment but its bound to feel the strain when all this begins. Maybe they can hope Aer Arann stop from Galway and baby would have the whole the region. It would be interesting to see if EI would be in a position to step in if needs be.

I think the airport are very warey of fr and the damage they can do to competition, but in the end they bring in the numbers and revenue.

I guess the next step for knock would be the continent, but the question is who would be brave enough to chance it?

840

17th Aug 2009, 15:13

The problem for Aer Lingus is that they don't have aircraft based in Manchester or Knock. That doesn't rule it out; some Manchester-Cork services have operated as W-patterns out of Dublin in the past. However, it does make it less likely.

Until Aer Lingus open another overseas base (and I don't think that will be soon considering the state of the company's finances), I'd be surprised if they offered more Knock services.

If they were to look at W-patterns, a more interesting option might be to offer a connection to an international hub. At the moment, that service is just not available in the north-west and there must be some level of market for it.

globetrotter79

17th Aug 2009, 15:18

If WW did pull the MAN-NOC for whatever reason, I'd guess that Jet2 would be the more likely ones to do this.

Remember that they have a relative lack of short sector flying ex-MAN (lack of domestics or ROI routes) so one would assume that they'd jump at the chance of doing this if the opportunity arose.

I am sure this fact is also not lost on the management both of MAN and NOC airports...

sawtooth

17th Aug 2009, 15:48

I heard Jet2 were on the verge of launching a NE route from a couple of years ago but it never happened (NCL?)

If they can retain the current routes then UK market is well served from NOC now, in a better economic climate they might be able grow frequency on some routes and possibly sustain EDI with the right carrier/aircraft. LHR will never happen unless under some sort of PSO scheme.

NOC should focus on securing a daily hub connection like CDG to aid long-haul and business access to the NW (Cityjet seem to be doing well with 2x SNN). AMS & MUC/DUS might offer potential also, Ireland had a big inbound Germany/Dutch tourist market in the past but it would require the support of tour operators with strong marketing (Falcon have operated a summer Avro service from ZRH for several years, fishing package holidays I think).

They've done well to maintain their sun charter routes with the loss of XL and several tour operators. I'd say there's demand for weekend break destinations like FCO, BCN. Ryanair could do a couple of rotations weekly like current ALC, but probably a long way off unless they decide to use NOC as a stick to beat SNN.

EI-BUD

17th Aug 2009, 18:15

All interested parties want to see Aer Lingus succeed at Knock. The loads have been quite good, but we dont really know about the yield which obvioulsy is very important.

If Aer Lingus axe Gatwick it is most unlikely that any other airline will come in and fill the void. Could Knock Airport management try to secure the LGW route long term by offering Aer Lingus favourable charges for another route to be operated as a W pattern ex Knock (ie LGW machine go on to say Manchester, Birmingham or wherever?) (ie if baby defected?)

What about a few flights a week on Knock/Malaga? Knock/Girona???
Any thoughts?

EI-BUD

Based

17th Aug 2009, 19:04

If Aer Lingus axe Gatwick it is most unlikely that any other airline will come in and fill the void.

You never know what will happen with the Knock - Gatwick route seeing it's been operated by Easyjet, Ryanair, XL and Aer Lingus in the past 5 years!

Roll to the end

18th Aug 2009, 00:29

I would think twice weekly flights to one or two holiday destinations would work, why not? I'm under the impression that a lanzarote flight operated through the winter at some point (not sure how it worked out).

The Gatwick service is in its fourth month and it will take time for the route/airline to establish themselves on the route (EI are only new to LGW too).No doubt yield has taken a hit but it is early days and the route is maturing. Would think a BA codeshare would probably improve the routes prospects.

Of course a connection to a major hub such as AMS would most definitely be welcome to the region as there is no such service. I guess with cat II up and running its opening the doors to new airlines like EI and maybe some new faces and destinations.

But again we are in a recession; let’s not get ahead of ourselves :ok:

anna_list

18th Aug 2009, 06:46

Hi,

The new NOC-ALC route appears to have got off to a pretty decent start in terms of loads: 81% flown LF in June, followed by 92% in July. I haven't been watching the yields though. Personally, I would have thought that there is a very good chance that both ALC-NOC and ALC-LDY will be back next summer.

In my view, the current situation on the London route (2x daily FR to STN, 1x FR to LTN and 1x EI to LGW) is unsustainable. Here are the CAA stats for the last 20 years to show why I believe this is the case:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/687/noct.jpg

Until 2005, the number of passengers on the London route only once exceeded 150,000. Although roughly 50% more passengers were using the route in the early 2000s compared to the late 80s and early 90s, it is possible that Ryanair were deliberately restricting growth to milk the yields.

Then in 2005 Easyjet opened NOC-LGW, FR retaliated and the ensuing fares war sent the market crazy with over 350,000 passengers in 2006. Of course, this could never last, and U2 and FR both pulled off Gatwick in 2006. Then XL had a go on Gatwick and now EI are trying too.

This year will probably see almost as many passengers on the London route as in 2006. The current level of capacity far exceeds the historic 'natural' size of the market and sooner or later I suspect that something will have to give. Enjoy it while it lasts.

iwak

18th Aug 2009, 13:58

I think the lgw route is here to stay .Both ezy and fr had good loads on the route but obviously overcapacity at two daily.Ezy would have made the route a success only for Fr driving them off it.

XL were not a well known brand which didnt help the situation.

Ltn and Stn are still performing well considering the economic climate and the arrival of the lgw route.This tells me there is a good solid passenger base using these routes and are not just reliant on low fares to attract the leisure passengers.People using these routes want to travel to Knock and are not just travelling because of low fares and the want of a random break away.

I see Fr have reduced the stn route to 9 services a week for the winter so again this will help the Lgw route. I honestly think that Aer Lingus will make the route a success.Against 3 services from Ryanair and a Recession Aer Lingus achieved a 70% load factor from the start and 76% for the month of july,pretty good in my book!

iwhak

18th Aug 2009, 21:23

iwak....yes it's a new route. Load factors are only ok, considering it is the national brand, and it is peak season, recession apart. However, a route has to perform all year round and even now looking at forward pricing I suspect the yield is rock bottom. When FR roll out their winter 1c specials I fear for EI for the coming winter. Don't be fooled, majority of pax now travelling if fare is cheap, and for no other reason unless they have to! Market is not big enough for a full daily scheduled service to both MAN and LBA. Reason no carrier has made a success of LGW is yield, volume was always pretty good. Someone suggesting Arrecife for winter, not a hope, already oversupply ex ORK, DUB, SNN since FR announced it last month, tour operators struggled with yield during peak season for last few years even at peak season, that's the reason there are so few charters ex NOC this year. I'm not a NOCCER (sic) just don't want ya gettin carried away!

iwak

18th Aug 2009, 23:18

You say the market is not big enough for man and lba to co exist but yet ema and bhx co exist for over 2 years . I wouldnt like you to be running Knock airport it would be at a standstill with no new routes and passenger numbers in decline.

Knock is one of the few airports that will maintain passenger numbers if not get marginal growth this year and you dont get that from existing routes only.

iwhak

19th Aug 2009, 17:45

Iwak....the point I am trying to make is that business development must be sustainable. A lot of money has been thrown at a lot of routes out of NOC that have not been viable. If an airport gets a reputation for encouraging airlines to develop routes that fail, it will prove increasingly difficult going forward to drive new routes abd pax numbers. LGW is a case in point, I doubt very much that the route has generated any contribution to the airport's bottom line when you consider the amount of incentives that have been thrown at the various operators to date. Since EMA commenced the figures on BHX have diluted enormously. Case in point, BHX May 06 totalled 7,500 this May total 4,500. The route is dying on its feet because FR launched EMA, and MAN will go the same way, and yes the recession is having some impact, but you would have expected growth in 07 and 08, which would offset some of the industry wide 15 - 20% declines experienced this year. My original point is and has not changed that NOC will go the same way as SNN with FR, and there will be NO new carriers. As an aside I have no wish to manage NOC, or personalise the debate, I am merely attempting to be constructive!

sawtooth

19th Aug 2009, 18:49

Blurb on the airport website today says they haven't had any weather diversions in the 5 months since CAT II went live.

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=176)

EI-BUD

24th Aug 2009, 21:50

Bit of a random one but I just read in an old Ryanair printed timetable from 1990 (May23-Oct27) the schedule for Knock/Leeds Bradford;

Once per week 0925/1020 FR462 NOC LBA B11
1100/1200 FR463 LBA NOC B11

The new schedule goes from NOC at 1505 on TUE, THUR & SAT from next year!!!

EI-BUD

airnoc

24th Aug 2009, 21:52

How does CAT II ILS implementation work?
What are bmibaby ontime flights like?

airnoc

28th Aug 2009, 13:28

Why was the lanzarote flight delayed today?
Is today the busiest day for the number of flights to arr and dept at Ire West Knock in its history?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Aer Lingus would not do flights into Knock when Fr Horan was alive and now there nearly gone bust. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif
Ryanair started flights into Knock which was Fr Horan dream and are still going boominghttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

EI-BUD

28th Aug 2009, 21:57

Is today the busiest day for the number of flights to arr and dept at Ire West Knock in its history

airnoc, I think you might be right, it certainly is close to the busiest in terms of aircraft movements! There were 3 Lourdes flights showing on the dep board, 3 to London and the rest of the UK flights! It's really great to see it!

Aer Lingus, not so sure that they are nearly bust, in the past when a crisis occured at Aer Lingus they usually needed an instant bail out. They will survive one way or the other and they have some cash in the bank (and yes b4 everybody advises the rate at which it has declined).

When Knock did open it was certainly questionable if a 737 sized aircraft could be sustained on flights to say London, but the Ireland of today is a different place and air traffic is so much more popular now than it was then thanks to airlines like Ryanair!

Roll to the end

29th Aug 2009, 17:43

ya from what i can see it there were 14 flights in the space of seven hours.....wouldn't think there would be much room to spare on that apron.

sawtooth

4th Sep 2009, 10:21

Yes they announced that it was the busiest day in the airports history with over 5300 people traveling through the airport. August was also the busiest in 3 years with 81,000, good going in the current economic climate.

Overseas visits to State fall 12% - The Irish Times - Thu, Sep 03, 2009 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0903/breaking34.htm)

EI-BUD

1st Oct 2009, 18:36

Nice to see such a busy day tomorrow at Knock; up to 310pm there are 12 flight arrivals and then Dublin after 7!

On top of the usuals there is Bmi from Lourdes and Travel Service from Lanzarote.

Not bad going for October...

airnoc

1st Oct 2009, 20:31

Hi Wonder if ryanair would do a base at Ire West Knock seen that shannon term there is comming to an end with flight been cut therehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

fivejuliet

1st Oct 2009, 20:40

Given the problem at Shannon is partially to do with the travel tax, its unlikely they will be setting up any new bases in Ireland soon...

EISNN

1st Oct 2009, 21:41

5Juliet If Ryanair don't get a new 'deal' with SAA/DAA for flights outta SNN there'll be every chance that they might pull a number of flights if Knock Ireland West take them on. !!!NB!!! I'm saying CHANCE and MIGHT. There's a relatively good market there in SNN considering the current economic climate and I don't think MOL would give it up completely or hand it over to another carrier/other carriers on a gold platter.

sawtooth

19th Oct 2009, 08:48

Quoting airnoc (post has moved to Flyglobespan forum)
"Hi. Was in knock shrine. Heard that there is to be a new route to germany and france. Anyone know more?"

Hmm, was your source human or spiritual, sure you weren't staring at the sun at the time?!

I think there is potential for more european connections from the west, with the loss of AF at SNN a well timed daily EI hub connection to CDG could work from NOC. They have only had 1 diversion since the ILS upgrade in February making the airport more attractive for morning flights also.

MUC might work, Falcontravel run a successful weekly ZRH charter to NOC. DUS operated as an inbound charter in the past when the western coastal scenery was very popular with Germans, a popular german soap was also shot around Westport last year with a lot of scenic locations which could be exploited in marketing a new route.

However EI are in cutback mode so it's more likely to be FR BVA/HHN if true.

iwak

21st Oct 2009, 23:00

Good to see alicante route back for summer 2010 now bookable on ryanair website from end of march to oct. Seems it was a good success this summer despite the economic climate.

As regards new services to Germany and France I would say a 3 weekly to bva and hahn would work very well . I also think a four weekly to edi would also work . The thought of too many ryanair routes makes me a bit nervous too many eggs in one basket and all that.

Liverpool has been a bit disappointing in terms of passenger numbers I think 6 per week is overkill and will shortly be back to daily for the winter but the lpl fc fans should help numbers.

Anybody got any idea of pax numbers on the dub route?

sawtooth

22nd Oct 2009, 09:04

The timings for Alicante were good giving people the option of a week or weekend break, and with some of the tour operators going bust this year there was a need for some more Spanish routes out of NOC, great to see it extended.

airnoc

22nd Oct 2009, 20:28

Liverpool has been a bit disappointing in terms of passenger numbers.
i though that 4 per week would be better but fair play to keep it going and now going daily. Knock is on the up and the other irish airport are look at Knock to see what they are doing right but it is simple there are no trade union running Ire West Airport at Knock

anna_list

24th Oct 2009, 11:18

Hi,

Note: All of these figures are meaningless without data for yields, but you might find them interesting nevertheless.

First of all the good news:

NOC-ALC (FR) has carried 11,000 passengers at an average flown LF of 86%, which looks very promising.

Now the not so good news: NOC to the UK seems to be having a bad time:

NOC-LGW (EI) has carried 44k pax with an average flown LF of 72%. At a first glance this looks ok, but July and August were the only months where the LF exceeded 70% and Sept was 64%.
NOC-BRS (FR) is FR's worst surviving route from BRS in terms of LF, averaging 44% this year, down from 54% for the same period last year.
NOC-EMA (FR) is FR's 2nd worst surviving route from EMA in terms of LF, averaging 55% this year, down from 62% for the same period last year, capacity down by 17%.
NOC-BHX (WW) is averaging 65% this year, down from 74% for the same period last year, capacity down by 12%.
NOC-LPL (FR) is FR's 3rd worst surviving route from LPL in terms of LF, averaging 50% this year (LPL-SNN is worse with 45%).
NOC-MAN (WW) is averaging 72% this year, down from 80% for the same period last year, capacity down by 22%.
NOC-LTN (FR) is averaging 74% this year, down from 78% for the same period last year.
NOC-STN (FR) is averaging 68% this year, down from 75% for the same period last year, although there has been a 19% increase in flights and an 8% increase in passengers.

FR almost certainly launched NOC-LPL with such a high frequency to try to destroy WW's NOC-MAN. It looks as though they have taken a large chunk of the market (just over 50%), but they are flying aircraft only half full in the process. NOC-LBA will almost certainly increase the pressure on NOC-MAN next year.

Of course, we're not having the best of times economically at the moment, but even so some of Knock's routes seem to be suffering much more than other routes between the UK and Ireland. Does anyone have an explanation, other than simple over-capacity?

heidelberg

24th Oct 2009, 12:34

anna list.

In answer to your question/statement.
'Of course, we're not having the best of times economically at the moment, but even so some of Knock's routes seem to be suffering much more than other routes between the UK and Ireland. Does anyone have an explanation, other than simple over-capacity?'

Answer.
1. UK in recession.
2. ROI in recession.

I'm not trying to be 'smart ass' but the fact is 'bums on seats' will not increase until the UK and ROI come out of recession sometime late 2010.

840

29th Oct 2009, 14:20

I'd suggest the following

Knock has experienced greater percentage capacity growth in recent years, which will always be harder to maintain in a recession
While Cork, Dublin and Shannon have a mix of business and leisure passengers, Knock is almost exclusively leisure.
It's more dependent on inbound UK pax than the others. With the weakness of sterling, this is not a happy market at the moment

airnoc

29th Oct 2009, 22:02

Hi Heard on M.W.R today that a early bird train from westport to dublin will start Nov 30th. Will this affect Aer Arran morning flight from Knock?
By the way 840 Knock airport was built in recession and is stiil growing todahttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gify.

Tom the Tenor

30th Oct 2009, 00:03

As far as I can remember Mgr Horan cornered Haughey at Garda funerals for the dough to get the work started on the airport at Knock. Fair play to Horan. He has my admiration - he knew how the game works in this country. You could call it outshannoning the snn crowd!

GnRdL

30th Oct 2009, 10:14

@anna_list
First of all the good news:
NOC-ALC (FR) has carried 11,000 passengers at an average flown LF of 86%, which looks very promising.I don't understand, why they don't extend the route in the winter.
Good numbers for NOC-ALC.

ryan2000

30th Oct 2009, 20:54

irish people only like Alicante when the sun scorches them. Pleasant winter sunshine doesn't seem to interest the bucket and shovel brigade.

Aerlingus operated ORK ALC and ORK NCE throughout the winter some years ago and the loads were disatrous.

CCR

30th Oct 2009, 22:58

The weather in Nice & Alicante isn't just good enough in the winter. Gotta be the Canaries for winter routes:ok:

iwak

31st Oct 2009, 00:23

I wouldnt be surprised if Knock soon had a Ryanair based aircraft after the news from Shannon this evening. I would say Ryanair are getting free charges from Knock anyway considering the steady stream of new routes over the last few years.

Its not the ideal scenario to have ryanair as the only operator at an airport however Iwak has limited options when it comes to attracting low cost airlines. Easyjet aint coming to Ireland anytime soon and you need big brands to sell routes.

If Knock could hold onto Bmi Baby and Aer Lingus and Have Ryanair as their based airline with new routes they would be doing well.Although bmi babys future will be revelaed next weds from their new owner!

iwhak

31st Oct 2009, 16:32

Getting sick and tired of listening to the NOC rhetoric. Baby will soon be gone, FR operating LBA, LPL and EMA was the last straw. Eeven with WW gone FR won't continue them. LGW needs to improve for EI. Charter traffic will continue to die. NOC needs to focus on summer scheduled sun routes. FR will conclude a deal at SNN and NOC will not see any new FR routes until 6 months prior to the conclusion of the next SNN agreement. NOC need to be loving RE for further UK growth.

CCR

1st Nov 2009, 14:16

You can't knock Knock for getting its act together:}
I doubt we'll see much growth of Aer Arann at Knock since they have much larger (Ryanair impregnable base in Connaught) down the road in Galway.
I think we may see more Ryanair growth at Knock-Ireland West airport even if we don't see a last minute resolution between FR & Shannon by next April.

GnRdL

1st Nov 2009, 18:57

@ryan2000
irish people only like Alicante when the sun scorches them. Pleasant winter sunshine doesn't seem to interest the bucket and shovel brigade.

Aerlingus operated ORK ALC and ORK NCE throughout the winter some years ago and the loads were disatrous.@CCR
The weather in Nice & Alicante isn't just good enough in the winter. Gotta be the Canaries for winter routesYes, Alicante is a seasonal destiny, but in many cases these connections work during the winter (like SNN). Anyway, is truth that the winter results are not the same.

Off topic: Yesterday I was swimming in Calpe beach (Alicante province). Perfect weather and really quiet currently. :)

airnoc

15th Dec 2009, 21:16

Hi. Heard on midwestradio that there is good news for Ireland west airport Knock tomorrow dec 16th. Hope it is a new base. Any one know more?

iwak

15th Dec 2009, 21:42

I would imagine that its new routes from either faro or malaga to knock or from both considering michael o leary is having press conferences at both airports tomorrow.:ok:

Anybody know how the Dublin route is performing load wise?

eirbus06

16th Dec 2009, 07:08

Excellent for knock :ok:,but is this a stab at SNN or is the route from SNN also?

iwak

16th Dec 2009, 07:57

well its not a malaga route anyway as those routes are now on press release on ryanair website. looks like faro route. would have preferred a malaga as we already have a summer charter to faro.

StephenM_SMC

16th Dec 2009, 10:53

Twice weekly service to Faro was announced here:

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=54)

iwak

27th Dec 2009, 23:26

Anybody have any idea as to why aer lingus went to dublin today and the outbound from knock was cancelled!

On another thread a tie up between aer arann and ei seems to be looming .An atr 72 would be perfect for a gla or edi route .Uk would be nicely boxed off if one of these routes were taken up.

airnoc

6th Jan 2010, 22:31

Hi Why was the bristol flight divert to cork this evening?
Was Ire West Knock Airport closed for some reason?

eirbus06

7th Jan 2010, 09:05

Just announced,ireland west airport now CLOSED for the day!! :uhoh:

EI-BUD

10th Jan 2010, 11:33

I note that on the RTE news in the past week when travel updates come on they usually include Knock in the summary. Ie yesterday they said 'Dublin airport is closed but Cork, Shannon and Knock are operational'.

It is significant that Knock gets a mention now as it used not. The airport amazes me in terms of the choice of destinations for such a rural area.

For Summer 2010 the routes are as follows with frequencies;

London Stansted x13 per week
London Gatwick x 7 per week
London Luton x 7 per week
Manchester x 5 per week (varies per month)
Birmingham x 4 per week
Dublin x 7 per week
Liverpool x 6 per week
Leeds Bradford x 3 per week
Bristol x 4 per week
East Midlands x 3 per week
Faro x 2 per week
Alicante x 2 per week

I then make it that there are approx 5 charters per week including Monarch to Faro, Swiss to Zurich (via Shannon?), Lanzarote (Iberworld), cadiz? Reus Split and Lourdes? It wasnt straight forward to get clarity on what charters were definately going.

So thats approx 68 flight in and out per week. Not bad in the recession.

EI-BUD

StephenM_SMC

10th Jan 2010, 13:19

It is good for the airport to get a mention in the daily traffic reports by AA Road watch, even if it was the only airport to be closed at the time! Its somewhat disappointing to see Manchester and Birmingham reducing in the weekly services but hopefully things will pick up in the near future.

Swiss to Zurich (via Shannon?)

That route has been operating for many years which typically routed through Shannon after stopping at Knock. Operated on a Saturday morning/afternoon through the summer.

Tom the Tenor

10th Jan 2010, 18:03

Put it up on here if there is a Knock - Cadiz flight. Where is that to in Spain - Jerez de la Frontera?

sawtooth

10th Jan 2010, 20:59

NOC have lost a few charters in the downturn with XL Holidays, Great Escapes, United Travel, Slattery Sun and a few others ceasing trading. Bourgas, Crete, Malaga, Majorca, Ibiza, Seville & Las Palmas operated in previous years. But they have gained Panorama and Sunworld of Thomas Cook Group and the 2 Ryanair sun routes.

Cadiz-Jerez is listed on the airport website under Claffey Tours, looks like an occasional charter:
Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/flightinformation/route_map.aspx)

airnoc

10th Jan 2010, 22:21

Is there two more sun routes to be announed soon?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

iwak

10th Jan 2010, 23:10

Is there something you know that we dont?:ooh:

Airbus321-200

11th Jan 2010, 01:14

Will Monarch be doing a weekly service or twice weekly service to/from Faro??

I hope they introduce some new routes for 2011 our of NOC as i know the load was always 95% +. I'm sure the Charterer is happy.

iwak

3rd Feb 2010, 18:25

Another new Ryanair route from noc to Reus(barcelona) It will operate 3 times weekly every tues,thurs and sat from May. I think its about 1hr 30 mins from Barcelona so better for Salou which is the local sun resort.

At least this will make up for the loss of the falcon holidays flights which will not operate this year to Salou and Palma.:ok:

airnoc

3rd Feb 2010, 21:58

Another new route to be announce soon.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifCould it be French or German?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

iwak

3rd Feb 2010, 22:35

Ryanair seem to only have stn daily for summer with mostly early morning departure from knock .I wonder will this change or have the timetables been completed,

It is well capable of being double daily at least for a couple of days anyway.It was double daily except thurs last year.

The Derry posters reckon NOC will be a base before too long!

CCR

4th Feb 2010, 20:55

I think Cork and Knock will be the big winners due the the unfortunate events at Shannon regarding Ryanair. The Munster capital already has 7 new Ryanair routes announced this week and I'm sure that Connaght's main airport will also gain a few new routes at the very least:ok:

fivejuliet

4th Feb 2010, 21:40

Glad to see Knock doing well in this regard this summer. I'd much prefer to drive to Knock over cork if travelling to aforementioned places this summer

airnoc

4th Feb 2010, 22:19

Why were the two bmibaby flights into Knock cancel today and one cancel on monday?

sawtooth

4th Feb 2010, 22:55

The runway was closed with snow for a few hours on Monday. But BMI cancellations into ORK/NOC do see a bit random these days.

eirbus06

4th Feb 2010, 23:09

I'd prefer ORK myself fivejuliet but i suppose it's all about preference. ORK has a bit more variety.

iwak

5th Feb 2010, 23:34

Anybody any ideas as to where this emminent new route will be in France or Germany.

Will it be a ryanair or maybe it will be an inbound charter series from Germany operated by Lufthansa like they do into Newquay and Inveness during the summer months.:ooh:

Keyvon

6th Feb 2010, 18:39

I don't know why Irish tour operators do not offer any holiday charter flights to Turkish resorts from Knock, as these are actually increasing their popularity amongst local holidaymakers...instead of always sticking to the same traditional sun spots such as Algarve or Spanish islands/costas..that now are becoming to be well-served by low-cost airlines..

People need to be offered something new. Don't you think so?

Airbus321-200

6th Feb 2010, 18:59

I think Turkey would be a very popular destination from NOC but the Turkish government heavily restrict who operates charter flights. The operator must have an AOC from the country it travels ( normally). So it has to be EI-reg or TC-reg. Some Airlines had issues with this last year.

brian_dromey

6th Feb 2010, 21:11

I don't think there are any EI- reg charter operators left these days. :(

Im not sure why Turkey is so poorly served from Ireland, it is very popular from the UK, although the Euro may have something to do with that. My guess is the ability to sell Spain/Portugal/Islas pretty easily compared to the risk of not selling seats to Turkey are putting operators off.

Brian.

Airbus321-200

6th Feb 2010, 21:20

Izmir & bodrum and Dalaman are very popular from Ireland but mostly only served by Onur Air from DUB.

Last years Izmir had a load factor of 96% which is pretty good considering the " recession" :)

I believe Air contractors will have an EI-reg pax 737 out of Ireland this year. Gone are the Transaer & Eirjet days:)

airnoc

21st Feb 2010, 14:06

Just looking at Ireland west airport Knock and all flights are being dirverted to shannon.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif I know it mat be fog but the installation of the Category II Instrument Landing System should have stop all this or is ir not working or is there another sytem wanted instead?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

fullrich

21st Feb 2010, 14:57

EIKN 211530Z 12003KT 0050 R27/0075 FZFG BKN001 BKN005 M01/M01

With conditions like this you would need CAT 3 on the ground and in the aircraft. Not likely I think.

TRY2FLY

22nd Feb 2010, 21:57

Fullrich

To convert VIS to RVR, multiply by 1.5(daytime) or 2.0(night) {I may have those two backways but anyway} .......

metar vis 50m x 1.5 = 75m RVR

Therefore CAT lll would be necessary

airnoc

22nd Feb 2010, 22:31

What would CAT 111 cost to install now that CAT 11 is already there at Ireland west airport Knock?

sawtooth

22nd Feb 2010, 23:09

Quote airnoc "What would CAT 111 cost to install now that CAT 11 is already there at Ireland west airport Knock?"

ILS operations require a whole series of systems working together: runway surveillance systems, taxiway/guidance/approach lighting, fire cover, staffing (ATC operation and systems testing/monitoring/training, runway inspection and security), insurance and legal requirements, along with the obvious ILS antenna, backup and power systems. I believe EIKN has CAT II approach lighting which would need upgrading along with accompanied civil works which would be a significant cost to start with.

That's only the ground element, the airline would need to have CAT III equipped and serviced aircraft as well as regularly ILS rated crew. RE don't rate their pilots, WW rarely perform a CAT II landing and I'd imagine Ryanair probably don't have to do many CAT IIIs so may not pay for rating pilots. All in all this means CAT III is very rarely justified at small airports, and often not available at many larger. Even DUB had many weather diversions this week.

The CAT II upgrade seems to have addressed many of NOCs low cloud base diversions with very few in 09. This winter has been historically long and cold leading to ice and freezing fog which along with snow closing airports in the UK means cancellations are inevitable.