IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK

[Runway_approach]

Knock wont hit 800,000 this year - they on track to do about 700,000 - proba small decline then to 650,000 or thereabouts going on the current route losses for 2015 - expect to get back up to the 700,000 mark then for 2016 - big ask to hit 1m as you say AerRyan - probably more a ten year target

[Kinocker]

I'm sure very few people thought 10 years ago that they'd reach the numbers they are at now. The key part of my post was the phrase "in time" and yes, in time, I think they can reach 1m pax p.a. But no, it won't be next year or the year after.

[iwak]

Noc man is now bookable at 5 weekly frequency for summer however bhx seems to be ending at end of march now even though it was bookable for summer 2 days ago!I hope it's not transferring to shannon!

[mart901]

I cant see much logic in cutting NOC in favour of SNN other than lack of a/c, given that both routes have grown over the last year, unless BE can offer t/a connections through SNN similar to their DUB routes.

[iwak]

Some positive news

Brs to be 4 wkly for summer 2015 m/w/f/s

Ema to be 6 wkly for summer 2015 daily except sat

This is obviously in response to stobart pull out in shannon and flybe pulling bhx route.

I was wondering would ei mainline put a 319 on bhx noc route . My travel used to do daily a320 I think 4 wkly 319 would be perfect . I would imagine fr will serve shannon from bhx when aircraft become availabl

[AerRyan]

That is an increase of 2 flights p/w for knock. Great news for a 2015 that's not looking especially promising. This is not yet bookable from the website, where did you get this Information? Also it may only be the extra 2 flights for the months of June and July.

Ei could not/will not operate a A319 on the noc/bhx route.
1). I doubt they see a market.
2). They do not base aircraft at Knock or Birmingham
3). I really do not see any new short-haul routes for anywhere outside Dublin.

It also looks like Ryanair will start serving the UK routes from shannon from September onwards.

[iwak]

Look at April ,any extra flights is positive news for the airport!

[AerRyan]

The extra flights only go from april-may. Very strange....

[Runway_approach]

That's positive you would imagine ryanair would see a decent spike in load factor on the ema service next summer which should offset pretty much the loss of pax on BHX- I'd expect also them to pick up the BHX service prob from winter onwards

[iwak]

The problem is shannon are looking for a bhx route also so I would imagine they will get first pref.

I just think ei using an a319 4 wkly on a w from dub like they will do the lgw would be a runner my travel and bmi baby used to have great loads

[Runway_approach]

True iwak but my travel had the route to themselves, ryanair now doing over 50,000 a year on EMA and this impacted significantly on bimbaby particularly in last few years - that said definitely a market for both EMA and BHX

[AerRyan]

LGW is not operated on a W pattern, AFAIK its actually operated by the A320 based at LGW.

[EI-A330-300]

LGW is operated from Dublin and no aircraft goong to be based at LGW from April.

[TRY2FLY]

I often wonder at the lack of Scottish routes. If it doesn't work on a jet why does the airport not approach turboprop operators such as Stobart Air/Loganair/Eastern Airways. I'd imagine a couple of times weekly to EDI/GLA/ABZ could work?

[Kinocker]

Flybe operated EDI-NOC for a few years until they restructured. As far as I know, of the routes flybe cut at the time, that was one of the better performing ones and summer loads were strong - but not strong enough for the route to be saved as flybe switched their focus more towards strong business routes.

At that time the route was competing with EIR's EDI-SNN which is about to be cut by Stobart so any operator now would have the market to themselves, which would certainly help - but there is no obvious operator out there. Given the summer numbers on PIK-NOC this year I think Ryanair could have some success on EDI-NOC which would be a stronger pairing as a summer route.

However, with Shannon seemingly able to offer Ryanair virtually free landing slots these days since they were handed a big bag of money by the Government, EDI-SNN as a summer route would seem more likely at the moment. I think it has been shown that Knock does not work from any Scottish airport other than EDI at this point in time - and any airline looking at EDI would only find money to be made during the summer months.

IMO there are a handful of routes around the country at airports like WAT, SNN and NOC that would suit a turboprop airline. However, there are only two turboprop airlines operating to Irish regional airports at the moment and neither seem interested in growth at these airports.

[CONAIR11]

However, with Shannon seemingly able to offer Ryanair virtually free landing slots these days

Seemingly and virtually. Which is it? Rubbish talk. And to be pedantic about it since when did Shannon have slots?

[Una Due Tfc]

Shannon is slot free. Only DUB would possibly be busy enough to warrant their use in ROI, and seeing as I've never worked there, I can't say whether they use them for sure

[Jamie2k9]

Shannon is slot free. Only DUB would possibly be busy enough to warrant their use in ROI, and seeing as I've never worked there, I can't say whether they use them for sure

DUB is slot-coordinated.

[Una Due Tfc]

And thats why I'm on here, always good to learn :8

[AerRyan]

What about the supposedly "big bag of money" knock is getting from Mayo County council? Didn't think of that did you? Knock is actually getting the money from the council, which means that people in the county will have to do without other services. Far worse than the money the DAA used to pay a debt that was endowed upon Shannon while in their leadership. If the money had not been given to Shannon, it would of been wasted somewhere in the DAA. I don't see that having any negative effect on taxpayers anywhere. Research your facts.

As well as that, Knock should have a Scottish route, but sadly there is very few available turboprop's in both countries. Shannon not having a Scottish route hurts knoc ks chances of getting such a route, not only due to the fact that Shannon has a better route support scheme, but also due to the fact that Shannon would have a better ability to gain passengers on the route. Basically Shannon has a better catchment, is connected to a motorway network and is well connected to 2 cities.

Ryanair may set up these routes in September when the aircraft become available, but until then its rather unlikely that either knock or Shannon will see Birmingham or Scotland.

[Una Due Tfc]

Don't go down that rout AerRyan or you'll spark an enormous row, the previous propping up of SNN with state funds is a sore topic for everybody who wouldn't consider it their local, especially those in DUB which suffered the worst as a result

[AerRyan]

I had a massive point discussed and made in a post I was about to make, acknowledging all sides of the argument, praising the Irish aviation system and coming to a very detailed conclusion made to avoid any severe arguements, when my phone spasmed out and restarted. Despite me copy all the paragraphs bar the conclusion, I lost the entire post. Its 2:40 and I REALLY am not in that state of mind to spend another 15minutes typing out the same post. I may try again in the morning if I have not disabled my phone in some sort of way from my agitation.

I do apologise for this possibly spammy post, but I do agree partly with all points.

[Una Due Tfc]

The joys of technology eh? Don't worry about it, my tongue was firmly in cheek for my previous post :O

[confused atco]

turboprop operators such as Stobart Air/Loganair/Eastern Airways
I'd imagine a couple of times weekly to EDI/GLA/ABZ could work?


Loganair currently offer Donegal to Glasgow using spare capacity from the PSO Dublin - Donegal to access their Glasgow base.

It will be interesting to see if Stobart offer a similar service.

[fivejuliet]

Yes 4pw service.

Anyone else spot the homecoming picture from Knock on the front page of the Irish Times today? Usually only DUB gets a look in!

[EI-BUD]

Stobart Air ( when Aer Arann ) did CFN PIK then changed to GLA. They too operated this route when they had the PSO.

Naturally it is right to say Loganair in its various guises have been operating this route on and off over the last few decades ...

Realise slightly off the NOC topic

[AerRyan]

Yes stobart are offering CFN-GLA. I suppose if there is demand there, why not?

[Kinocker]

Sounds like the airport broke the 700,000 passenger mark for the first time on December 30th.

[Kinocker]

The total for Knock in 2014 was 703,324 with a strong Christmas taking them over the 700k mark for the first time. Hopefully it wont be too long before these kind of figures are seen again, but it won't be in 2015.

[Runway_approach]

I hear there's a press conference called by the airport and the shrine in knock tomorrow assume some form of pilgrimage announcement anyone heat anything?? European maybe Rome ? Hardly transatlantic

[AerRyan]

I hate to burst your bubble, but I cannot imagine it being good news. A Rome route would be very unlikely due to Shannon not having one and having lower fees and T/A would be a long shot.

Although a slim amount of light is possible with someone announcing a Scottish routes, most of the west coast doesn't have a route there.

[Runway_approach]

It's unlikely to be bad news if it's a joint press conference with knock shrine - what bad news could they possibly be announcing in conjunction with the shrine? Has to be some form of pilgrimage angle to it - hardly anything from Scotland

[AerRyan]

Popes visit?
Once off pilgrimage to rome? Maybe a 747 again to do it?

[fivejuliet]

I believe the announcement is that Aer Lingus are flying a pilgrimage charter to JFK from Knock

[Kinocker]

16/01/2015 - Historic day for Knock Shrine and Ireland West Airport as Aer Lingus to operate first Transatlantic Pilgrimage Flights from New York to Ireland West Airport Knock in 2015

A bit OTT for a one off flight like - although I suppose since there's been nothing else to announce this year...

[Runway_approach]

Did you burst that bubble AerRyan!! Ya good news albeit just one flight - good to see aer lingus though going to operate it hope it can lead to something bigger in the future

[AerRyan]

Not really. Knock actually had a service once, this is just a useless charter.
Aer Lingus will never operate anything T/A from knock before cork. Maybe United, but thats it.

Good news for knock though. For anyone interested, it will operate using a Dublin based 757-200 and will operate like this DUB-JFK-NOC-JFK-DUB twice.

[ryan2000]

Does that mean there will be an outbound leg from Noc? I assumed it would position to Dublin after bringing the pilgrims to Knock.

[AerRyan]

Oops, I think your right! There is no outbound leg, it positions to DUB

[Runway_approach]

Brave words AerRyan 'never' is a very strong word! I could see them doing a seasonal service to JFK/BOS from knock in the medium term - proved in 2007 there is a market there and that was with an airline nobody had heard of - a route you would imagine with the national carrier would perform even better particularly given the huge west of Ireland diaspora in the States - never say never!!

[AerRyan]

Remember, that "market" had most of its seats filled by the Time it reached knock. You could argue that knock hads only a small market and the only economical way to fill it is through having a stop. But I don't want to aggregate you that much :)

Knock has a market, there is no denying that, but it needs to prove that putting a plane there is more profitable than putting the same plane in Shannon, Dublin or even Cork. Cork will always be the more profitable option, so in the medium term, unless cork gets a route, I can be almost sire knock won't see one.

[EI-BUD]

Aer Ryan,
Firstly, I suggest it is remiss of you to call this a useless charter. It is excellent PR and again firmly putting NOC firmly on the map. Ok there is no link on this route but it is worthy of PR. Reinforces for me that Knock Airport has far exceeded almost all observers predictions. Even over the last five years the airport has went from strength to strength. The numbers are impressive in terms of visitors.

In terms of your commentary about the ' market' having most of its seats filled before it reached Knock, where is the data to support this? The debate and discussion on the time said something different. Flyglobespan recognised the opportunities that existed ex the west of Ireland, sadly their demise was untimely.

EI-BUD

[EI-BUD]

Also I wouldn't rule out that when FR do eventually decide to do TA Ireland to East coast US will be logical. SNN and NOC would be logical points for FR to operate from.. Plus could be done on 737.

[AerRyan]

Aer Ryan,
Firstly, I suggest it is remiss of you to call this a useless charter. It is excellent PR and again firmly putting NOC firmly on the map. Ok there is no link on this route but it is worthy of PR. Reinforces for me that Knock Airport has far exceeded almost all observers predictions. Even over the last five years the airport has went from strength to strength. The numbers are impressive in terms of visitors.

It is a honestly useless charter, I cant see much benefit except the small few Americans it will bring through the doors of Knock.
I cannot see any airline thinking "Oh, look, an airline is operating a return service to Knock from New York in august, there must be a Major market here!" I cannot see much of a PR value here.

Aer Lingus yesterday operated a charter into Belfast-International (Who is currently suing Aer Lingus) for the Ulster match in Tolon. Why did they do it? Because the payment was good enough. No other reason. Any commercial business will operate somewhere if they are paid enough to do so. I have no doubt they are being well paid to do this Knock charter.

Sure Knock has done great on European routes, Transatlantic routes are completely different. Very few Americans like landing into the absolute middle of nowhere an hour away from any city and a while away from any notable town, with a horrible road network around. Sure its great for the locals, but I cannot see the T/A tourism worth.

Another point is that airlines want to protect their routes from Shannon and Dublin already. Even if they can make a profit at knock, would it lower their profits at dublin and shannon by an extent that its not worth the movement of an aircraft?

I hate to rain on your parade, but a service from knock is unlikely in the foreseeable future. But I would let a weekly service off the agenda.

In terms of your commentary about the ' market' having most of its seats filled before it reached Knock, where is the data to support this? The debate and discussion on the time said something different. Flyglobespan recognised the opportunities that existed ex the west of Ireland, sadly their demise was untimely.

EI-BUD

I have read figures that 67% of the Flyglopespan loads came from Liverpool/Glasgow and the others came form Knock.

Flyglopespan recognised that there was no way they could fill all the seats in Liverpool and Glasgow, but they couldn't route the network via Dublin and Shannon as JFK and BOS are already full markets there, so Knock was the next best thing. There is defiantly a market there, but is it sufficient for a non-stop service?

Also I wouldn't rule out that when FR do eventually decide to do TA Ireland to East coast US will be logical. SNN and NOC would be logical points for FR to operate from.. Plus could be done on 737.

Ryanair will never EPTOS test their 737's so you will not see a 737 service. What ever aircraft they use, it will be likely that they are too big for the Knock market and even Shannon. The only reason they would target Shannon is to get rid of the competition there.

[confused atco]

I would slightly disagree with your point of it being a "useless charter".

Its the Mick O'Leary school of "there is no such thing as bad publicly".

Expect RTE news to be invited along to cover this auspicious event.

[EI-BUD]

Aer Ryan,

My point was that this flight is a strong PR message to the travelling public. Not at all relevant to PR for the airlines, who know there is an airport there.

AerLingus flying to Belfast BFS is a useless comparison, Belfast have wide range of destinations and the similarity bring that EI operate the charters on Z commercial basis.

I have no particular interest in NOC having a US route, so no parade mate.

Thank you for the clarification on the ETOPS position with FR aircraft, good to see there is somebody on here who knows the specific plans that FR have.

It is worth nothing that FR have had a more than commercial interest operation ex NOC trying routes that most others wouldn't - but no giving up , many Euro routes have been tried and tested yet FR havent given up on NOC. Hence my assertion that if FR looked to North America, NOC and indeed SNN will be in with a sporting chance.

[EI-BUD]

With reference to passengers on NOC USA routes;
The 2 scheduled Globespan routes operated in 2007. Months
May to October inclusive; CSO stats show that 16,600 people used the NOC - BOS and JFK routes.

Globespan did operated BOS and JFK originating in LPL and GLA, half the flights did a stop at NOC the others did nonstop ex UK.

Globespan carried 33,373 in terms of pax in that same period on GLA and LPL to BOS and JFK respectively. If half the flights did NOC stop; shows that NOC punched truly above its weight in terms of share of passenger split for the routes.

Data as per CSO in ROI and CAA airport stats in the UK. Hence, the 67% sounds questionable...

[confused atco]

I am open to correction but did GLOBESPAN stop in Knock on both legs?
Going to USA and on the way back?

[EI-BUD]

Confused ATCO,
From memory; the same plane didn't do LPL-NOC-JFK-NOC-LPL, but rather;
LPL-NOC-JFK-LPL and the next flight would do
LPL-JFK-NOC-LPL

And the same rationale on the trips ex GLA...

[Una Due Tfc]

If the 737MAX has the legs and FR want to send theirs Trans Atlantic, it'll be through SNN all day long in my opinion. U.S. pre-clearance would mean they could fly to secondary airports in Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania etc that are not equipped with full border control, immigration etc, giving them a big cost advantage.

[Runway_approach]

Stats ion globe span completely wrong from what I understand AerRyan - the NOC legs on both route accounted for over 70% of the sold seats - there's that never word again !!!

[EI-BUD]

Massive assumption that all 'will remain well' between SNN and its biggest customer ... Relationship with NOC on the other hand has 'appeared to be' much more collaborative and 'working together'. Hence why I believe NOC would feature in any TA activity. However, massively subjective as in the future some day...

[Runway_approach]

Genuinely feel with ryanairs move into more primary airports across Europe and more high yielding markets that regional airports like shannon and knock might find their growth options with ryanair challenging - their strategy has and will very much change and that makes filler routes into regional airports challenging going forward - thst said one thing about aviation is that's it's ever changing !!!

[iwak]

I have to say fair play to knock for wangling aer lingus for the charter .all be it one flight it will prove they can handle 757 American flights. With a bit of luck we will see an increased service in 2016.

Birmingham route ending in march. First time knock is without a bhx link since 2003.It will probably be winter before we get a new bhx route!

[AerRyan]

I have to say fair play to knock for wangling aer lingus for the charter .all be it one flight it will prove they can handle 757 American flights. With a bit of luck we will see an increased service in 2016.

Birmingham route ending in march. First time knock is without a bhx link since 2003.It will probably be winter before we get a new bhx route!

I dont think the decision had much to do with Knock and Aer Lingus, although Im not educated enough in the matter to know whats what. Was Aer Lingus hired by a charter company for the Pilgrimage? Knock has already proved it can handle 757 american flights with Flyglopespan, this tbh proves very little.

BHX has ended in Shannon and will end in Knock, which I find unbelievably peculiar. Surely with the ending of the shannon service the Knock service would gain quite a few passengers? Shannon almost defiantly get a bhx route in September, its quite possible that knock may have to wait longer. There is a strong market for Birmingham, just no aircraft available to do it. EI regional have no spares, flybe obivously have a better use for the aircraft, and that only leaves ryanair, which in fairness isnt too likely until at least next summer. I hope im wrong though:P

I have came across slightly anti-knock in the past few posts, but Im not. Its great to have these 2 airports on the west coast as it brings employment to these Disadvantaged areas. I just dont see an airline doing a scheduled T/A service from knock. The aircraft is already being used on which is probably higher yield routes. If there was 100 more 757's in the world, I wouldn't doubt Knock would have one, but there is a severe shortage of these longer range, low passenger capacity aircraft.

If there was no 757's, Shannon would probably have a year round service to new york and a seasonal one to Boston, thats it. This is why the introduction of the A321 NEO is vital to the survival to thin t/a routes. In 10 years, the new A321 NEO will probably lead to plenty more thin long haul routes, but for the time being knock looks like it will be at a loss to a T/A service.

[Kinocker]

Very interesting comments from Willie Walsh on the proposed Aer Lingus takeover by IAG this afternoon - he has stated that one part of the plan would be to strengthen the Knock to Gatwick route to become a genuine connection route onwards internationally. I had thought that this route would be quickly dropped following a takeover but maybe not.

[adfly]

We could possibly see it go double daily then to offer more connection to BA's LGW network, although that is quite a lot of capacity. EI regional could be an option 2-3 daily although LGW isn't the most cost effective place to be flying an ATR which makes that seem unlikely. One things for sure once BA move to the South Terminal during 2016 connections between them and EI will be a good deal easier than they are currently.

[TRY2FLY]

Birmingham post reporting that Knock is getting the chop along with a number of other BHX routes

[AerRyan]

NOC-BHX IS getting the chop, and we have known this for quite a while now.

[mart901]

Sunway will be operating ADB during Sept and Oct.

[iwak]

Bit of positive news at least I wonder what the plans are to replace bhx this is a huge loss to the airport

[mart901]

Indeed....being honest I don't think there's many options where that's concerned other than FR, and if that's the case it would almost certainly be at the expense of EMA.

[AerRyan]

If Ryanair are going to start BHX anywhere it will be shannon.

In my opinion it will be several years before a return of bhx to knock.

[Runway_approach]

The only real carrier likely to pick up BHX from either knock or shannon is ryanair - it says a lot about ryanairs new strategy that they haven't picked up any of the lost UK routes out of shannon - they obviously have better utilisation and more profitable opportunities in primary airports across Europe - this will be the challenge going forward for regional airports like knock and shannon - I can see ryanair picking up BHX from knock but it will be at the expense of the EMA service. There simply are no other carriers out there to service these routes from knock or shannon - Otherwise they would have been picked up ahead of the summer season

[AerRyan]

Runway, that has been stated several times over.

Anyway, I very much doubt Ryanair will take up BHX from Knock, as Shannon supported over 100 daily seats to BHX on expensive tickets. Knock wasnt so lucky.

With a larger market and lower fees at Shannon, you can be guaranteed that FR will not be taking up BHX from knock without them picking it up at Shannon first.


Meanwhile, 4 flights heading to Knock diverted to Shannon today. 3 of them flights returned to Knock and did the return Journey, and the other 1 flight to London Stansted took off with passengers transferred from Knock transferred by bus to Shannon.


A new charter to Turkey runs next September/october bookable through Sunway.ie

[Runway_approach]

AerRyan you should know there is no such thing as 'guarantees' in aviation - from looking at the stats Knock were supprting over 60,000 PAX with bmibaby even with the EMA service there so clearly a significant market, which Ryanair would likely stimulate event further. easily a market of close to 100,000 if there was no EMA service. if the market supported such volume at expensive prices in Shannon why isnt there a new carrier jumping to get in there for summer 2015??

Weather playing havoc last couple of days in Knock credit to ryanair for coming back and operating the outbound services

[AerRyan]

I know there is no guarantees, but theres smart business decisions and not so smart ones. Im not guaranteeing a BHX service to either NOC or SNN. Im also not doubting the market at NOC. But there is clearly a larger market at Shannon.

No carrier has the Aircraft to start a service. The BHX service would have stayed if EI regional had not started a CFN-DUB service with the help of getting paid to do so.
Flybe are pursuing other ventures so they are intrested in neither Knock or Shannon.

Also, why give credit to Ryanair? It's really an operational issue and any airline would do the same if they could. FYI they operated one of knocks services from Shannon.

[confused atco]

credit to ryanair for coming back and operating the outbound services

It would have cost a small fortune to compensate the stranded passengers.

They were always going to try get in at some stage.

[EI-BUD]

Shannon supported over 100 daily seats to BHX on expensive tickets

AerRyan,

Please define 'expensive tickets'. This is a fantastic statement, where on earth do you get your information from?

There is no compelling reason why Ryanair would ever want to fly from Knock to Birmingham when there is no existing carrier on the route, as they have East Mids, which is there alternative and the midlands airport that they have developed the most. Once can only assume due to lower cost base etc.

Shannon on the other hand had an incumbent on a route to the midlands and therefore FR went after that.

Equally, there are no carriers, who wish to come in and burn cash trying to occupy the space where Ryanair is at. Day returns on business are an attractive proposition, but with a daily 738 plying the route, the day return piece will never be sustainable.

EI-BUD

[AerRyan]

Despite me having stated on PPRuNe at keast twice before, I'll say it again.

With Stobart air, you could not get to Manchester for cheaper than €80 return with 7kg hand luggage only.

With Ryanair its often as cheap as €20 with 10kg luggage.

For the regional routes, Ryanair underprice Stobart and everyone else by a mile. They will always be the winners at high demand regional routes.

I believe that a 1x daily BHX service is sustainable from SNN while a 1x daily EMA service is at NOC.

[mart901]

I will say there is some truth in this, if you look at EIR on a lot of routes their starting fares
are £70-£80 return. Indeed FR are very competitive - at times. Dont however expect £20 return to last forever. There is no profit in that whatsoever. You mention BHX, I will give you an example, since some point last year FR and EI have been engaged in a fares war and even EI have £19 one ways in place this long time. However for a period of years even prior FR had been cutting capacity and at times starting fares were £70 return and often EI were undercutting them and had become dominant.
BHX-NOC seems to work best with a low cost carrier, MYTlite and WW both had their success in terms of pax numbers and I wouldn't doubt FR would.

[iwak]

I think ei 4 weekly service on a w rotation from dublin would work.An a319 would be ideal

[Kinocker]

I think the argument here is missing the key point that Knock has sustained a regular service to the English midlands for years and continues to do so throughout 2015. Shannon, on the other hand, has not been able to sustain a regular service to this region which is currently unserved from that airport. If such a large market existed for routes from Shannon to this region as is claimed I'm sure either Birmingham or East Midlands would be served at this time. Nonetheless, I'm sure some airline will make another attempt to operate a route to the region from Shannon in the future.

[fivejuliet]

EI Regional- SNN-BHX 2010-2015
Ryanair- SNN-BHX- 2007-2010
Ryanair SNN-EMA 2004(?)-2007
Flybe/Jersey European SNN-BHX way back-2004

No, not a market from SNN to the Midlands :ok:

The point is both SNN and NOC have both had such routes historically and can continue to do so together. SNN route not the most lucrative in the world, but nor is Knock, however expect Ryanair to make a go of it by year end

[EI-BUD]

Despite me having stated on PPRuNe at keast twice before, I'll say it again.

With Stobart air, you could not get to Manchester for cheaper than €80 return with 7kg hand luggage only.

You can say it 100 times. You don't know much revenue EIR were collecting on this route. Taxes and charges play a part and these combined with fuel and staff and other costs are substantial. Unless you work in the airline you do not know how marginal or otherwise this route for EIR was. Irrespective of what fare EIR was collecting.

[Runway_approach]

4 times cheaper - moral of the story is doesent make money which means better opportunities elsewhere in Europe - UK routes from regionals outside of core London stuff is very very marginal and in most cases loss making

[Runway_approach]

It's gone awful quiet on this thread guys no post in over 2 months - any news or developments in knock ? Looking at caa stats very strong numbers and growth in first few months of 2015

[AerRyan]

Bristol up alot due to the loss of the SNN-BRS service.

I doubt that we will see a BHX route anytime soon either, SNN will have one from next month and it's a small market with very few competing airlines.

[Runway_approach]

Bristol up alot due to the loss of the SNN-BRS service.

I doubt that we will see a BHX route anytime soon either, SNN will have one from next month and it's a small market with very few competing airlines.

Bristol has an extra frequency added for months of April and May hence the extra numbers even when Shannon had Bristol the knock Bristol performed decently good market west of Galway

Disagree on Birmingham been a proven service from the airport and would expect they will have a carrier back on it from next summer although I
Notice their EMA service has picked up dramatically good to see they haven't gone elsewhere !!!

[AerRyan]

I'd say the EMA pax will drop once the SNN-BHX service comes into play.

Of course there's a market in NOC for a BHX service, it'll just be a while until one arises due to a lack of aircraft now.

[iwak]

I would say bhx will be back before too long I was thinking norweigen might have taken it up as they seem to be expanding at bhx. It's not a base but I thought a w leg might be an option. It needs a low cost 4 times a week to get volume !

I also thought fr would introduce brs for winter considering snn has no service either .

Joe Gilmore did say he was very hopeful of transatlantic flights in 2016 .

A lot of people on social media looking for a Scottish service also.

There's defo demand but it's the lack of carriers these days that's the problem.

[Kinocker]

There is room for one Scottish service to the western seaboard you would think. Nothing between Derry and Cork at the moment. EDI-NOC and EDI-SNN seemed to be the two most successful pairings when they existed, but then again if either was that successful it'd be operating today. The M6 and M7 are taking a lot of traffic away from SNN these days so previously sustainable routes from the mid 00's may no longer work from that airport, even with the apparently outlandish route subsidies they are now in a position to offer. Neither EIR or Flybe look too interested anyway so it would probably need to be Ryanair if it was to happen. Most likely nothing will happen before April 2016 at the earliest.

[Runway_approach]

I'd say the EMA pax will drop once the SNN-BHX service comes into play.

Of course there's a market in NOC for a BHX service, it'll just be a while until one arises due to a lack of aircraft now.

I don't see the BHX having any impact whatsoever on the EMA if anything the opposite why would someone in the likes of Galway as an example fly to BHX on a turboprop at an average fare of between €100 to €150 return when you can fly on a jet to EMA for €9.99 one way? Unless you want to go direct to the city of Birmingham whic naturally there will be a certain element - agree though challenge at minute is lack of carriers and capacity but these things can change quickly and when they do expect NOC to get their BHX back

[AerRyan]

I don't see the BHX having any impact whatsoever on the EMA if anything the opposite why would someone in the likes of Galway as an example fly to BHX on a turboprop at an average fare of between €100 to €150 return when you can fly on a jet to EMA for €9.99 one way? Unless you want to go direct to the city of Birmingham whic naturally there will be a certain element - agree though challenge at minute is lack of carriers and capacity but these things can change quickly and when they do expect NOC to get their BHX back

Notice their EMA service has picked up dramatically good to see they haven't gone elsewhere !!!

Fairly hypocritical. You said its good to see the BHX pax have not gone elsewhere and are using EMA, yet your saying that they won't fly to BHX on a turboprob for €100-150 return.(Incorrect fares from €80 return are available compared to fares from €20 to EMA.)

I can see a lot of the old NOC BHX pax going to Shannon, and I also suspect Knock won't have a BHX service for the coming years. EI regional have no interest and Flybe don't have any extra capacity until late 2016!

[Runway_approach]

Fairly hypocritical. You said its good to see the BHX pax have not gone elsewhere and are using EMA, yet your saying that they won't fly to BHX on a turboprob for €100-150 return.(Incorrect fares from €80 return are available compared to fares from €20 to EMA.)

I can see a lot of the old NOC BHX pax going to Shannon, and I also suspect Knock won't have a BHX service for the coming years. EI regional have no interest and Flybe don't have any extra capacity until late 2016!

Let's see how long the €80 fares last with EI Regional - not long is my guess - by elsewhere I mean other airports ie Dublin which can easily happen when you have gap in service - can you genuinely see people West of Galway going to Shannon when knock has a 5/6 week service to EMA?? you may eat those words saying knock won't get a BHX service in coming years - you should know things can change very quickly in the aviation world but then again opinions are opinions I for one think they will hopefully have it back next year - for the record Flybe have available capacity out of BHX and can see their current route strategy changing in coming year to 18 months and who knows what an AIG takeover could do for EI Regionsl ie fleet expansion - interesting times ahead !!!

[TRY2FLY]

I'm sure Loganair or Eastern has the spare capacity to do a Scottish route, the question is have they been approached. I doubt it.

[EI-BUD]

Knock Airport has been consistently resilient. Growing in the toughest of times. Ryanair has been an ardent supporter and stuck with the airport through the hardest and best of time, they have tried margin routes, some worked some did not.

BHX has a long history ex Knock Airport, I'd suggest that as long as EMA NOC is in place few will look at BHX again. If it does not work for BE, few others wilL look at it.
And FR unlikely to duplicate abother Midlands route unless they have to.

Perhaps if VLM can make a go of WAT BHX they may look at increased presence at BHX... But unlikely...

The logical next steps for growth at NOC is a US route, and continued growth in traffic on UK routes and focus on driving holiday flights for locals...

[virginblue]

an US route operated by whom exactly? i can think of a few other places a US carrier would operate to before serving NOC, given the existing services to BFS, DUB and SNN.

[EI-BUD]

Thank you Virgin Blue. My point is in terms of priorities, I think a US route should be a priority for Knock Airport. I realise not a big pool of airlines that would be most suited to this but it is the logical aspiration for the airport..

[AerRyan]

Thank you Virgin Blue. My point is in terms of priorities, I think a US route should be a priority for Knock Airport. I realise not a big pool of airlines that would be most suited to this but it is the logical aspiration for the airport..
So why exactly should an airport focus on the unachievable?

[Runway_approach]

I'm sure Loganair or Eastern has the spare capacity to do a Scottish route, the question is have they been approached. I doubt it.

I think trying to make the eastern airways model work in the west of Ireland be very challenging - they don't do low fares leisure markets tend to focus on high frequency city pairs with big focus on cities with major oil refineries

[AerRyan]

I think trying to make the eastern airways model work in the west of Ireland be very challenging - they don't do low fares leisure markets tend to focus on high frequency city pairs with big focus on cities with major oil refineries
That's also a reason why we will never see VLM venture out of Waterford. VLM are a high fare (but high quality) airline. Ryanair are very protective of their home soil so they would easily beat them at NOC, SNN, KIR, ORK, or DUB, but they cannot operate out of WAT, so VLM can operate there.

There will be a BHX service back at NOC if the airport want it, but it will be a while. My estimate would be September 2016 operated by Flybe. Flybe will have spare suitable aircraft then and plan on basing a few at BHX.

I don't think the airport has many areas left to grow. They should focus on getting their LPA and Scottish route back and possibly a French route. Oh, also a weekly German/Swiss/Austrian charter for the tourists would be in order. After that the airport is at Max for the next few years.

A U.S service is a long way off, I cannot imagine who would operate one.

[Una Due Tfc]

Agreed. Every US and Canadian long-haul carrier already operates something to DUB and/or SNN, so they're unlikely to launch a service that compete with ones they already have, not unless DUB totally fills up, which is a long way off, if ever happening. A service to one of the big euro hubs by e.g. HOP! or Eurowings might work though.

[EI-BUD]

So why exactly should an airport focus on the unachievable?


Aer Ryan,
Sorry for the slow reply...
Yes it would appear like a long shot. However, my point is the level of emigration ex the west coast over the decades, means that for VFR and Americans visiting, I believe that Knock airport could sustain a service, less than daily but certainly 4 weekly in Summer. The challenge is the range of carriers for such a service or rather the lack of, and I accept it would be difficult to attract one of the legacy carriers to the market. Somebody like Norwegian may be the right style of carrier but unlikely to be interested at this point of time.

This is very subjective but it is my opinion, Flyglobespan certainly got the support in terms of demand, but obviously we dont know about the margin they made on the service ... sadly their situation put paid to the routes life span...
EI-BUD

[Runway_approach]

Agree think Scotland and getting LPA back for 2016 and maybe somewhere like Majorca are realistic targets for 2016 especially with Ryanair starting to take delivery of new planes there maybe additional opportunities - re the U.S. The 2007 services certainly proved there is a market there and they had loads j understand of 85% plus on the NOC legs which you would imagine with a credible carrier would do even better - a 2/3 per week summer service should certainly be sustainable there's a whole west and northwest of country to use it and as you pointed out there is a huge diaspora from these regions in the likes of New York and Boston - remains to be seen over coming years if any carriers give it a shot - I hear on grapevine there is the interest there from carriers

[AerRyan]

Personally I cannot see why any airline would compromise their DUB/SNN services. If they are to start anything, it would be a service to ORK.

Also, the Flyglobespan, they included the LPL and GLA pax, yes?

[EI-BUD]

yes Globespan did New York and Boston and every flight was operated ex the UK some ex GLA some ex LPL. I think it you look back far enough on this thread you will see much commentary on the operation, but the indicators available to the general public were very good.

Surprising that Ryanair dont dip their toe in the water, I think the 738 could make it, Norwegian use 738 on Oslo Dubai and Norway to the Canaries and the distance is similar... as well documented FR not read to do the US, though the West of Ireland to the Eastern Seaboard could prove the demand and give a chance to prove the commerciality or not!

[Runway_approach]

Personally I cannot see why any airline would compromise their DUB/SNN services. If they are to start anything, it would be a service to ORK.

Also, the Flyglobespan, they included the LPL and GLA pax, yes?

The load factor I detailed was for NOC legs only - I think cork is too close to Shannon and their runway isnt long enough to take most transatlantic type aircraft (could be wrong on that) as 2007 proved I think knock could stimulate some additional traffic with a seasonal service without cannibalising Shannon / Dublin particularly from
The U.S. Side which is booming and much lower cost base into knock but just my opinion !!

[Angry Rebel]

@runway approach - it's a long standing myth about Cork's runway. The vast majority of aircraft can operate unrestricted to East Coast USA including all the most likely aircraft e.g 757-200, 330-200/330-300. Even the 747-400 can do it.

Newer aircraft like A350 and B787 can do West Coast with 100% payload.

[737aviator]

EI-BUD, Ryanair have also flown Norway to the Canary Islands for 2 winters now. This is an incomparable route, although while it may be quite similar in terms of ground distance, is not subject to the same influence of jet streams that an East/West route to the US is. The 737-800, even with limited pax numbers, would be unable to guarantee non-stop west bound trips. Even this past winter, many 757s were having to make fuel stops westbound due to strong winds.
Also, the runway is too short at Knock to ensure that a 737-800 can take off at MTOW in a variety of weather conditions. Some days maybe, winter days with low atmospheric pressure then it'd have severe limitations.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Globespan planned for the 757 to operate the routes, but when the 757 was gone tech they swapped in the 737-800s, which then usually had to make fuel stops at various places such as Gander, KEF, etc.

[OltonPete]

AerRyan

The flybe schedule at BHX this summer is very light at times and room could have been made for Knock if it was viable. However I agree with you that I would not rule out a return and certainly as a route currently not served it will once again qualify for discounts at both end. I not sure what the BHX's rules are on the length of time before the same operator can come back on a route to be eligble for discounts. These used to be available on line but now seems to give an e-mail address for route incentives.

At present the BHX-NQY-STN-NQY-BHX Q400 arrives back at 18.30 and night-stops Monday to Friday and plenty of spares Saturday evening although Sunday I believe is tight.

However I suspect a policy change by flybe relating to the high utilisation due the Q400 - This Saturday all aircraft needed in the morning and the operation went pear-shaped putting BHX at number 4 or 5 on FR24 re departure delays (worldwide) and considering there were no Midlands weather issues that takes some doing. To be fair Flybe recovered it with the help of the 175.

Pete

[AerRyan]

@runway approach - it's a long standing myth about Cork's runway. The vast majority of aircraft can operate unrestricted to East Coast USA including all the most likely aircraft e.g 757-200, 330-200/330-300. Even the 747-400 can do it.

Newer aircraft like A350 and B787 can do West Coast with 100% payload.

Completely incorrect. The only aircraft able to operate a transatlantic service from Cork is the 757-200 and even that faces restrictions in some conditions. All of them wide bodies can land at Cork, but they cannot operate a viable service from Cork due to the payload restrictions. A B747-400 would not make it far with the restrictions at ORK.

Of course, a T/A service can be operated from Cork. Thats commonly the mistaken fact.

[840]

Without wishing to take the IWAK thread off-topic, the truth is somewhere between the two.

There are aircraft other than the 757-200 that could operate transatlantic unrestricted from Cork - the 737-X00ER, A319LR, 767-200

There's another set that, while restricted, can probably be operated commercially - A330-200, 787-800 - because even with a full cargo load, they don't need to leave at MTOW.

Then there's a large set that can be operated in a restricted manner, but could never be profitable.

However, profitable is the key word, and the lack of a decent cargo business in Cork (and Knock) seriously undermines the potential profitability.

[confused atco]

I think a US route should be a priority for Knock Airport.

re the U.S. The 2007 services certainly proved there is a market there and they had loads j understand of 85% plus on the NOC legs

The load factor I detailed was for NOC legs only -
This is the question you should be asking.

How many seats in terms of a full airplane is 85% of the KNOCK Leg?


Say for argument the Knock leg was 100 seats out of 200.

They only managed to sell 85% of 100 not 85% of 200.

Totally different load factor.

[Runway_approach]

This is the question you should be asking.

How many seats in terms of a full airplane is 85% of the KNOCK Leg?


Say for argument the Knock leg was 100 seats out of 200.

They only managed to sell 85% of 100 not 85% of 200.

Totally different load factor.

It's 85% of what they were permitted to sell so doesent matter if it was 200 or 500 they were allocated a set amount on each flight and across the season sold 85% of their allocation - from memory I think they had about 120 out of 170 odd on the JFK service!

[AerRyan]

I highly doubt they managed to sell 120 seats on a 757/737 on the NOC leg of the flight. I would have imagined that the vast majority would have came from LPL and GLA. They are both large population centers and LPL didnt even have a Transatlantic flight! Knock a population center? Not so much....

[Runway_approach]

I highly doubt they managed to sell 120 seats on a 757/737 on the NOC leg of the flight. I would have imagined that the vast majority would have came from LPL and GLA. They are both large population centers and LPL didnt even have a Transatlantic flight! Knock a population center? Not so much....

I'm afraid your wrong knock certainly had 60% if not more of the flight I knew some of the guys working on it at the time - liverpool had no transatlantic but their neighbours 20 minutes down the road in Manchester had plenty - throw in a stopover in knock and not as attractive! Ps I'll see if can get more info on the breakdown but NOC leg was certainly the stronger on both particularly the JFK lots of ex pats used it etc

[confused atco]

I'm afraid your wrong knock certainly had 60% if not more of the flight

B757 has typically 200 seats.

Knock filled 60% say 120 which is 85% of their allocation.

Stripping out the rest they had no competition for passengers and still only managed to fill 60% of the available seating.

Load factors of that magnitude do not support a viable service.

[Angry Rebel]

@AerRyan Perhaps we should continue on the Cork thread, but I am not incorrect. I have directly read a technical report prepared on the subject (ie Rny 17/35 in Cork for aircraft range) and the aircraft types I quoted can operate at 100% payload assumption, using standard weather assumptions.

If you still persist in disagreeing please outline your source.

[Runway_approach]

Your calculations are wrong! Knock had 120 seats available to sell and on a season average sold 102 seats of their allocation. They had no ability to sell the remaining 80 seats which were allocated to Liverpool airport so Im failing to see your point on this. My overall point is they performed quite well on JFK / BOS services with a little known airline who had zero brand recognition in the West of Ireland and the US. You would assume if a big name like United or Aer Lingus operated a season twice weekly service between may and september it would drive the load factor and performance even better - we will never know unless one of them takes a chance in the coming years!

[confused atco]

Your calculations are wrong!
Bit severe:{
Knock had 120 seats available to sell
I have no access to the exact stats which you appear to be quoting.

I am basing my calculations as guestimates based on the info in this thread.

B757 has typically 200 seats.

Knock filled 60% say 120
200/100*60 =120.

which is 85% of their allocation
Several posters claim this is the gospel figure so who am I to argue.

nd on a season average sold 102 seats of their allocation.

Out of a possible 120 seats they sold 102.
102/120 = 0.85. 0.85*100 =85%.

All is good in the world.

They had no ability to sell the remaining 80 seats which were allocated to Liverpool airport so Im failing to see your point on this.

They could not even sell 120 seats in the height of the boom so accessing the remainder of the aircraft is moot.

The problem is that the notional aircraft to be used (B757 or some future variant of the A320/B737 families) all have seating capacities of 180+.

102/180 = 0.57. 0.57*100= 57%.

Despite the claims there is no "pent up demand".

The pilgrimage later this year is a charter flight so is operated at no loss to the airline.

You can bet that this will be heralded as some kind of second coming but the numbers would appear to be against it.

Airlines are not charities.

[fivejuliet]

Aer Lingus were quite emphatic at the announcement of the charter flight that they won't be launching any scheduled USA flight from Knock anytime soon.

[Angry Rebel]

The LF debate is interesting, but all a bit moot when you don't know the yields?!

[Una Due Tfc]

Given thelast airline to run the service went bust, and it hasn't been picked up despite the fact this year is on course to be the record year for Trans Atlantic movements, I think we can guess.

[confused atco]

The LF debate is interesting, but all a bit moot when you don't know the yields?!

If you are only filling less than 60% of the plane either the airport is paying you or the price (yield) for everyone is saucy.:eek:

[AerRyan]

US flights from Cork face ?barriers? | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/us-flights-from-cork-face-barriers-234132.html)

“We would love to have a transatlantic flight from Cork into the East Coast of the United States, but I think we need to be realistic about that. There are a number of limitations that stop us; because of the length of the runway in Cork, there is only one aircraft that could actually fly to the east coast and that is a Boeing 757, which has 205 passengers,

Thats from the chairman of the DAA.

(Of course, hes talking out of his hole, because a Transatlantic Boeing 757 carries roughly 180 passenger. He also states that the knock on effect of the low capacity of the 757 could result in higher prices (Complete and utter BS) and would result in 1 or 2 flights a week (Like an A330 would do daily?)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evening Echo ? Transatlantic flights on way to Cork Airport (http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/transatlantic-flights-on-way-to-cork-airport/)

“The runway is not suitable for aircraft to travel to the West Coast of the USA, but at 2.1 kilometres, it is capable of serving 757 aircrafts on flights to New York, Boston and Chicago.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On the Knock side of Transatlantic flights, I found this fourm FlyGlobespan airline Transatlantic flts JFK and BOS to NOC Ireland west airport - Page 2 - FlyerTalk Forums (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/other-european-airlines/653719-flyglobespan-airline-transatlantic-flts-jfk-bos-noc-ireland-west-airport-2.html)
stating that the NOC-JFK flight was 50/50 NOC and LPL.

[AerRyan]

If you are only filling less than 60% of the plane either the airport is paying you or the price (yield) for everyone is saucy.

They went bust, id say the yield was fairly saucy. They would need nice and Looww fairs to compete with the Airlines At MAN,SNN and DUB.

[Angry Rebel]

Well if it's from the Evening Echo I bow to it's superior knowledge. It's never been shown to be wrong in the past ;)

I won't comment on whether there could possibly be any ulterior agenda from DAA Chairman.....

[Kinocker]

Back on topic - there was reference to Knock in the report on the IAG takeover of Aer Lingus, talk of connectivity into IAG's range of Euro routes from Gatwick. If IAG are serious about this they would perhaps want to restructure the flight times to and from Knock or look at going double daily (unlikely I would think). Longer term, Knock might benefit if Gatwick were to win the ongoing London airport battle against Heathrow for further expansion.

[Runway_approach]

Back on topic - there was reference to Knock in the report on the IAG takeover of Aer Lingus, talk of connectivity into IAG's range of Euro routes from Gatwick. If IAG are serious about this they would perhaps want to restructure the flight times to and from Knock or look at going double daily (unlikely I would think). Longer term, Knock might benefit if Gatwick were to win the ongoing London airport battle against Heathrow for further expansion.

Agree an early to mid morning slot would work well on the Gatwick if the interlining possibilities are opened up as you would imagine they will be - looking at the BA network in particular potentially opens up access to the likes of Las Vegas and Orlando and s host of European cities - if you can book a through flight from knock would be certainly a major development for knock

[iwak]

Flybe launched winter 2015/6 today no sign of noc/man after October could that be the end of flybe!

[AerRyan]

Flybe launched winter 2015/6 today no sign of noc/man after October could that be the end of flybe!

No need to worry yet, the schedule isnt fully released yet. Only about half of it is.

If it does go, its not that much of the surprise as I'd imagine the SNN FR service has has a massive hit. No turboprob can compete with €9.99 fares on a 737.

Still, no need to worry.

[Runway_approach]

No need to worry yet, the schedule isnt fully released yet. Only about half of it is.

If it does go, its not that much of the surprise as I'd imagine the SNN FR service has has a massive hit. No turboprob can compete with €9.99 fares on a 737.

Still, no need to worry.

Be a Shame if goes its more the Ryanair liverpool service that has affected it from knock now doing 80000 per year says it all - a lot of the Manchester people I know now use the liverpool service

[AerRyan]

Yep I'd say the two of those together has given a hit. Although I still know a few hardcore Man UTD and Man City fans who refuse to fly to Liverpool, so you never know, it may still be there.

[Runway_approach]

Yep I'd say the two of those together has given a hit. Although I still know a few hardcore Man UTD and Man City fans who refuse to fly to Liverpool, so you never know, it may still be there.

Even sir Alex Ferguson flew out on the Liverpool flight a few weeks ago !!! It's back to the age old problem Ryanair are cornering the market now from the regionals with the only regional options ie stobart and Flybe retreating more and more as it appears they can't compete against €9.99 fares and who can blame them ! As you say hopefully the service might appear on the next draft of the Flybe winter schedule

[heneghan_j]

Hi Guy's

I've been checking max distances for the A320 and 737 and most of them would be safe to fly direct from NOC to either JFK or BOS.

However, does anyone know the realistic technical limitations that may arise depending on pax load, fuel, weight, weather conditions, delays etc

Was just wondering as you know there is an increase in low cost long haul ops beginning to arise. WOW air or WestJet would be two i'd day may offer talks to Knock? WOW air would seem promising if they attempted direct service from NOC rather than via Reyjavik.

I work at LGW and was just announced WestJet will begin ops next March, and our Norwegian USA ops have increased, (low cost long haul) so I believe anything is possible once the airline and airport negotiate a suitable aircraft that's available to operate the route. (.ie 787)

[AerRyan]

Based on previous conversations.

*Very few airlines have made TATL on a 737/A320 viable.

*No airlines to put TATL in Knock. Wow air are in Reykjavik and Norwegian won't use 737's.

*Is there even a market.

*VERY heavy competition from DUB/SNN.

[737aviator]

heneghan, still air distances don't translate into ground distance. A 100kt headwind westbound means a tech stop for fuel. Globespan usually tech stopped on the westbound whenever they used the 737. Pax don't like looking out the window at Gander or St Johns for an hour. ;)
Also, as I mentioned above, a 737NG cannot take off at MTOW from Knock on days with low atmospheric pressure (i.e. winter) as the runway isn't long enough.

[AerRyan]

As part of their new focus on Ireland, Falcon are looking at starting operations from Knock again. PMI is a likely contender.

[Runway_approach]

Anyone hear any further news on the knock - Manchester service and if it plans to operate beyond October - I know they still finalising schedule at present - hopefully it remains - from looking at CAA stats the airport hadn't been adversely affected by the loss of BHX service looks like the EMA service had improved considerably and picked up all this business in April anyway - would expect LPL to do same if they lose MAN service

[heneghan_j]

Thanks @AerRyan and @737aviator for the very clear detailed information. Makes clear sense now. I just wasn't sure on the technical requirements in regards to the runway and weather conditions, a/c size etc. It's clear all the barriers that face the persuasion and likeliness off the route commencing.

Thanks Again!

[AerRyan]

Any word on MAN yet?

[Mayfly1]

expecting positive news on MAN from talking to lads at airport, its a case of slots and aircraft availability

[Runway_approach]

Reading boards.ie its not promising.

Boards.ie hardly the most reliable source of information - it was on there that the BHX service was replacing which is complete rubbish - from looking at Flybe site the winter months are loaded but not bookable yet which wasn't the case last week (ie winter months weren't even showing ) guess next week
Or so we will know hopefully it's good news

[wheelbarrow]

And which airlines serve that place, never heard of it. Do Air Lingus fly from it? What's board.ie? Is it that spotter site where they all willy wave?
Not much happens in Shannan either, seems lots of regional airports in Eire

[confused atco]

And which airlines serve that place,
RYANAIR/AER Lingus/FLYBE


What's board.ie?
An online chat room (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=905) where like minded people freely exchange ideas.

Is it that spotter site where they all willy wave?
:E :E :E

seems lots of regional airports in Eire
Too many but that's not going to change any time soon.

[vkid]

Funny people discounting boards.ie when the whole basis of the a380 story for Dublin seems to be a post on the same site from someone who heard something from someone who knows someone...or something.
The recent post on there about knock going to be the busiest airport because it has a shrine was comedy gold though.
I have no idea about the route in question from knock though

[sawtooth]

EI / IAG merger approval from EC includes condition freeing 5 LGW slot pairs.

Irish Times article suggests EI looking at moving the NOC service. LHR hub feed?

Sources speculate that Aer Lingus intends to maintain at least five Gatwick flights to Dublin and one Knock flight to London, although it is unclear if this will be a Gatwick flight.

Gatwick proposal a surprise remedy for Aer Lingus deal (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/gatwick-proposal-a-surprise-remedy-for-aer-lingus-deal-1.2285059)

[PPRuNeUser0176]

I bet those "sources" decided to look at summer 2016 on the EI website and concluded because 5 daily is on sale that's what happening (couldn't be more wrong btw). I can't see a LHR link but been able to book connections ex LGW will be a boost in itself.

Would also say if LHR was the plan IAG would of brought it up during the sale as it would of been a big + for them getting approval from opposition parties.

EI also hold more slots than stated!

[Runway_approach]

Manchester route on sale as expected for the winter looks like those reliable sources on boards.ie were wrong again :)

[AerRyan]

Manchester route on sale as expected for the winter looks like those reliable sources on boards.ie were wrong again :)

In fairness the user did put in a quote from the airline.

[iwak]

Good to see flybe still flying to Manchester for winter . Just have to get Birmingham sorted now we might see ei operating it yet with a bit of luck. 3/4 wkly service on an a320 with low fares would definitely work!!

I would have thought Bristol would be successful as a winter route considering no service from Shannon !??

[AerRyan]

Think you will have to let go of that one. An A320 won't work on NOC-BHX (nor would a 737-800), especially not under Aer Lingus' fare structure). You would also not get Aer Lingus introducing the route on anything but a stobart, it would be very rare for them to do so.

A jet aircraft is simply too much plane for that route. Look at SNN-MAN, it went from 3x daily flights on turboprops to a daily flight on a jet, despite the far lower fare structure.

[iwak]

Back in 2003 till 2008 my travel lite operated a daily a320 noc bhx service and carried 8000 pax a month during peak season. It was a great success for them until the company decided to concentrate on charter ops!

Bmi baby operated successfully and operated against Ryanair on ema route for many years.

Rumours of norweigen setting up a base at bhx for summer 2016 we might get a few flights from them!!😜

[AerRyan]

A 76% LF during peak season doesn't work on many airlines. I can't see it happening on anything except a turboprop imo.

[EI-BUD]

Manchester route on sale as expected for the winter looks like those reliable sources on boards.ie were wrong again :)


Runway_ approach,


I couldn't agree more, not unlike Wikipedia, a lot of wishful thinking going on to get chat going on.....


EI-BUD

[Runway_approach]

Good news for knock http://www.highlandradio.com/2015/07/27/donegal-county-council-agree-to-knock-airport-funding/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter could be but think only Galway City left to approve their investment which would mean investment of over €7m for the airport and 7 local authorities taking part ownership - expect this to be a big development for the airport ?

[MarkD]

The Shinner makes some good points in the second audio track to that Highland Radio piece. If Donegal CC supports NOC and not CFN or LDY it seems very odd indeed.

[confused atco]

If Donegal CC supports NOC and not CFN or LDY it seems very odd indeed

Irl GOV "encouraged" the local authorities to see things their way.

[EI-BUD]

Reported in a certain aviation journal that on the date of the Aer Lingus transatlantic service into NOC, that the head of Aer Lingus was having discussions with NOC airport management about the possibility of 757 scheduled services from NOC to Boston and New York JFK. Upon reflection this could prove to be a good way to boost and sustain the LGW NOC route in the form of offering a JFK NOC LGW connection at competitive pricing....

[AerRyan]

Aer Lingus have said they aren't interested in T/A at NOC, why would they dilute the SNN and DUB markets? It's also unbelievably unlikely they would connect pax through Knock.

[EI-BUD]

The Aer Lingus chief executive Stephen Kavanagh was at Knock Airport for the arrival ceremonies on 09 August, at which he said that the airline was in discussions with management at the airport with regard to the possibility of operating scheduled transatlantic services from New York and Boston into Knock Airport





The above is exactly what was stated in the journal. I'd have thought as much AerRyan, but that is what was stated....

[Cozy F]

Indeed. I'd say you should have a large helping of Saxo close to hand!

[virginblue]

Airline bosses will say anything at route openings and similar events to make airport operators and the locals happy....

[iwak]

All very quite on the iwak front lately !! The turkey charter series began yesterday. Any news on bhx route??it remains to be seen wether ei will remain as operator on lgw or will ba take over the route as ei have to give up 5 of their slots at lgw as part of the iag takeover

[AerRyan]

The BHX route is not likely to be taken up as SNN-BHX has recommenced.

IAG have to give up 5 slots for the Belfast and Dublin routes, not for the Knock routes. Any operators bidding won't operate a service to NOC, but theoretically they could take away the slot from NOC, although that's unlikely as its a top preformer.

How's the Izmir charter doing? Any news on the bookings?

[EI-BUD]

Iwak,

I think you raise an interesting point in relation to the LGW NOC route.

IAG will certainly evaluate the value of all routes ex LGW when deciding which flights /slots will be given up. In which case I hope LGW NOC gets kept, EI have put a lot into it.

That said, I'm not sure what the requirements are of IAG in relation to the spread of times of the day for which the slots must relate... Which may have a bearing. I note the NOC flight is off peak times..


Aer Ryan,

A 'top performer', please explain?
EI-BUD

[AerRyan]

From what I have heard NOC-LGW operates with a LF of 75% and very good yield.

Why did this need explanation?

[Kinocker]

One of IAG's selling points of the EI deal was the potential to increase european connections for passengers using the Knock route so, if they keep their word, an expansion of the service in the future would seem more likely than a reduction. For the time being though, I'd expect the current daily schedule to conyinue as is.

[brian_dromey]

I think NOC is probably one area in the EI fleet that would really benefit from a 100 seat Jet. It would be perfect for 2x daily LGW and a European route, likely to the med hot spots, inbetween.

[Fly_bill]

The BHX route is not likely to be taken up as SNN-BHX has recommenced.

IAG have to give up 5 slots for the Belfast and Dublin routes, not for the Knock routes. Any operators bidding won't operate a service to NOC, but theoretically they could take away the slot from NOC, although that's unlikely as its a top preformer.

How's the Izmir charter doing? Any news on the bookings?

First Izmir flight was full bookings seem to be promising - I see no reason why noc-bhx won't return in the short term regardless of the situation in Shannon - serve largely different markets and Noc-Bhx always a solid performer think it's matter of time before picked up

[heneghan_j]

I happened to notice on Ryanair's route map that LPA has been removed, I'm not sure if this has already been said on here previously. I double checked on IWAK website and same on there. What I also noticed which I found funny is they have put New York on the route, under the category 'Inbound Charters', so they really trying to show how much they want JFK.

[AerRyan]

LPA was cancelled for this summer?

[confused atco]

What I also noticed which I found funny is they have put New York on the route, under the category 'Inbound Charters',
How many Catholic shrines are there in the USA?

so they really trying to show how much they want JFK.
They have been chasing this market as long as I can remember.

[EI-BUD]

Ryanair flight to/from Eindhoven tomorrow.... Charter or new flight? I assume 1 off??

[irish lad]

Any ideas why Ryanair flights holding over Knock? Nothing seems to be landing..

[AerRyan]

Dense morning fog. Should be gone by the afternoon

[irish lad]

Thanks I see there diverting to Shannon now

[AerRyan]

The two diverted flights position later and went to their destinations at about 1pm.

[AerRyan]

Seems things have stagnated on the NOC front. Next summer will see little or no change to this summer. LGW may be strengthened passenger number wise by the IAG takeover of EI. After that NOC should try and build numbers on the routes they have. Retaining routes is most of the battle for airports.

The IWAK facebook page is actually quite good compared to Cork and Dublin's very cold and un-personal approach. I find it very friendly and welcoming.

[Fly_bill]

Seems things have stagnated on the NOC front. Next summer will see little or no change to this summer. LGW may be strengthened passenger number wise by the IAG takeover of EI. After that NOC should try and build numbers on the routes they have. Retaining routes is most of the battle for airports.

The IWAK facebook page is actually quite good compared to Cork and Dublin's very cold and un-personal approach. I find it very friendly and welcoming.

Do ya think is summer finalised now for all carriers ? Would have thought still plenty of time to secure some additional capacity / new routes ?? Was January last year from memory when they announced the pilgrimage and turkey service ??

[airnoc]

HI All
For summer 2016 IWAK will get 4 charter Aer Lingus From New York Pilgrimages, so hopefully 2017 weekly flights :ok: :D :ok: :D :ok: :D

[AerRyan]

If you mean weekly for 3 weeks then your onto something.

[Dreamliner_01]

any truth on the US charters for next year? Gone very quiet out west as a regular user of the airport hoping they get the BHX service restored for next year - plenty of demand for it easily a good route for a potential carrier

[heneghan_j]

Thomson and Falcon Holidays commensing a new weekly service (Tuesday's) to Costa Dorada (Salou) from June-Aug 16!

[Dreamliner_01]

Great to see that always was a popular service - hopefully more good news to come!

[Kinocker]

Having never been to that part of Spain I had to do a bit of digging to find out exactly what airport the flights were to. It's Reus. Once a week - that route should be a safe enough bet for Thomson. Reus was fairly popular back when Ryanair served it three times a week.

[Kinocker]

Also - a tweet this evening reported that the EI Gatwick service would be a BA codeshare from next week. That could open up some useful onward connections from Knock.

[sawtooth]

Flybe announced they will operate EDI, BHX (both 6 weekly, year round) and increased frequency on MAN service starting March 2015.

Ireland West Airport Knock - News (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=383)

[AerRyan]

Amazing news! Thats at least an extra 12 weekly rotations! I must ask though, the main international gateway for the Wild Atlantic Way?

[Kinocker]

That's a serious announcement for the airport - well done to all involved. It will be interesting to see if rumours of Ryanair operating a Scottish route to Shannon materialise now, if they do it would result in change from a complete lack of service to a serious capacity overload between central Scotland and the west and mid west of Ireland.

Regarding the Wild Atlantic Way statement I believe there is a statistic out there somewhere that states that Knock is the nearest airport to something like 8 of the 15 Signature Discovery Points on the route. I have no idea if the stat is factual or not but I think that is possibly where the 'main international gateway' statement originates from.

2016 looks like being a record breaking year for the airport based if the current services are maintained alongside the three new route announcements and the increase to Manchester.

[Dreamliner_01]

I think every airport is claiming to be the gateway to the wild Atlantic way note recent releases by cork and Shannon in this regard also !! Great announcement by knock fair play to all involved in securing these routes for the west !!

[Jamie2k9]

2016 looks like being a record breaking year for the airport based if the current services are maintained alongside the three new route announcements and the increase to Manchester.

I wouldn't expect it to top 2014 numbers unless there is a lot more to come from the airport for 2016 and the routes have 100% load factors.

[Kinocker]

I think it's a possibility - loads are significantly up this year to the point that 2015 may only fall about 20,000 short of 2014 despite the loss of Ryanair flights to Prestwick, Kaunas, Gran Canaria and Eindhoven. Considering that loss of capacity the numbers have been quite impressive this year - August was the only major fall off compared to 2014.

In 2016 the existing routes plus Edinburgh, Birmingham, Reus, the increase in capacity to Manchester and the probable BA codeshare on Gatwick should more than make up the 20,000 and get the numbers back over 700,000 and ahead of 2014 total.

[AerRyan]

But BHX is only a return of a lost route, so the only real route gain is EDI.
Which may I add is a massive gain, especially beating Shannon there!

[Kinocker]

Indeed, but in terms of passenger numbers v 2015 Birmingham only operated for the three quieter months at the start of the year this year whereas next year it's scheduled for nine months including the summer season so should carry far more passengers in 2016.

In terms of frequencies I wonder will these services really operate six times a week throughout or will it be more a case of 'up to' six services a week with lower capacity in the winter. Certainly I'd be amazed if Edinburgh ran six days a week all year, that frequency could work in the summer but three a week would probably be plenty at this time of year.

[BAladdy]

Does anyone know if the EDI route is planned to be operated by a BE or Loganair aircraft

[Kinocker]

It will be a BE aircraft. Almost certainly a Q400.

[Fly_bill]

It will be a BE aircraft. Almost certainly a Q400.

Heard a spokesperson on radio say both services six per week during summer and four per week during winter prob sensible schedules

[iwak]

Hi

Great day for knock today .Well done to the management for sealing the deal with flybe. ! couldn't understand how bhx was ever axed loads were always good.Edinburgh at 6 per week might be a bit much however 4 per week for winter is more realistic.I suppose with Shannon currently without an edi service and also the economy picking up demand will be better than previously.

What is man being increased to??

[mart901]

BE seem to be fighting harder and more up for the challenge lately, lets face it FR have had plenty of time to move their EMA service to BHX and have had opportunity to operate MAN also from NOC and have sat tight on that front. Looking from closer to here BE have took on EZY on BHD-LPL and have held their own on a raft of other domestic routes against EZY, I see no reason they wont succeed, especially with no competition from Scotland to the west of Ireland.

[Daza]

Flybe booking engine showing BHX-NOC as Mon-Sat no Sunday flight. :E

BE563/4 1230 1355 1040 1205

Daza

[Kinocker]

Here are the currently proposed flight times:

EDI-NOC / NOC-EDI

14:10-15:35/16:00-17:20 Monday to Friday
10:40-12:05/12:30-13:50 Sunday
No Flight Saturday

BHX-NOC / NOC-BHX

10:40-12:05/12:30-13:55 Monday to Saturday
19:00-20:25/20:50-22:15 Sunday

MAN-NOC / NOC-MAN

07:30-08:40/09:05-10:20 Monday to Friday
11:30-12:40/13:05-14:20 Sunday
No Flight Saturday

So Birmingham is daily then, not six a week as announced?

[Daza]

Great news for NOC! In the early hours BHX-NOC was showing via EDI on Sundays. It's about time BHX was reintroduced. I remember BMIBaby filling 737s on the route. :)

[AerRyan]

Will knock stay open until 9pm every sunday night?

[Kinocker]

It possibly might if one of the London services also moves to later Sunday evening, I think a later evening Sunday service to Luton or Stansted would be popular. Then again flybe may well change the timings between now and the route launch.

[AerRyan]

BHX back to 6x weekly. All the free council money has probably gone towards paying flybe to operate the routes.

[mart901]

BHX is 7x weekly not 6x daily. Exactly how do you come to the conclusion BE are being paid to operate routes at NOC?

[AerRyan]

Apologies, 6x weekly. Its not 7x weekly that was likely an error, have a look at the flybe website now, and the airport press release here :Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=383).

Of course that could have been solved with common sense, but either your lacking in that or you just refused to acknowledge it to annoy others.

Anyways, flybe in 2016:
MAN 7x
EDI 6x
BHX 6x

A nice 19 weekly rotations!

Also, if not being paid, why would flybe SUDDENLY be persuaded to bring back BHX?

[mart901]

AerRyan

I appreciate subsidy does happen but it's one big assumption when there's no evidence. Interesting that over on the DSA thread the same theories are being banded around. Things change, demand peaks and troughs, also I believe BHX have cut landing fees recently which may have helped swing the route in again, but in many respects I don't think they ever wanted to axe EDI or BHX but at the time they were making sweeping cuts to save money. The axe fell that way on that occasion.

[Dreamliner_01]

Apologies, 6x weekly. Its not 7x weekly that was likely an error, have a look at the flybe website now, and the airport press release here :Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=383).

Of course that could have been solved with common sense, but either your lacking in that or you just refused to acknowledge it to annoy others.

Anyways, flybe in 2016:
MAN 7x
EDI 6x
BHX 6x

A nice 19 weekly rotations!

Also, if not being paid, why would flybe SUDDENLY be persuaded to bring back BHX?

That's a pretty bold statement your suggesting - why wouldn't they do these routes?? BHX has long been a solid route at Knock and it's clear Flybe were rash in slashing so many routes last March - Edinburgh is a no brainer - no service from any airport in the west - it's s pretty substantial allegation your making there without any evidence to back it up but looking at your profile uve clearly a Shannon bias .......why did Aer Aran restore BHX in Shannon ?? For the good of their health !!!! Doubt it very much !!! I'm neutral here and want to see growth at both airports and I'm sure Shannon will continue to grow also their uk network - let's give credit where credit due to both airport and airline on this occasion !!

Ps looking at recent media cuttings on the council investment the airport has €9m of debt and the council contribution is to be used partly to service the debt

[Kinocker]

Why does any airline start any route Aer Ryan? There are many reasons but ultimately it is because they think they can make a profit from it. I'd say Knock have incentivised these routes to some extent as most airports do, not least your own airport of choice, but there is plenty else that any funding Knock might have received will need to be spent on.

[iwak]

Just looking at the 9 uk routes knock will offer next summer it will now have the uk well covered . Strong marketing and awareness campaigns will be crucial across the west and northwest for the Edinburgh route , I think Birmingham will look after itself.

It's a pity the Sunday flight is not timed like the bhx flight to give a decent weekend in either Ireland or Scotland .It will also be interesting to see how man performs at the early am slot as opposed to afternoon. Although bmi baby started the man route at the same time and it performed very strongly.

I see ei are cancelling their bhd Lgw route from next March .I hope aer lingus remain operating the noc Lgw flight and it's not handed Over to ba to operate.

[Kinocker]

Iwak - BA coming on to the LGW route might actually be a good thing if it was to happen in terms of easier connectivity to their network.

[iwak]

It wouldn't be the worst thing but ba won't be as cheap as ei for point to point flyers.

Anyway it's great to have noc as a destination on the BA site!

[PPRuNeUser0176]

BA are moving all operations to S Terminal in November 2016 at LGW and will join EI and IB there, would imagine VY will follow with BA.

[iwak]

Just wondering is there going to be more us pilgrimage charters for summer 2016.

[Dreamliner_01]

Just wondering is there going to be more us pilgrimage charters for summer 2016.

I've heard it's not looking likely at this stage - but who knows information could be wrong !!

[EI-BUD]

iwak


are you referring to US charter by Aer Lingus on 757, or is it the flights to Lourdes? The Lourdes always happens, as long as I can remember there have been Lourdes charters, for pilgrimage, and I US, my understanding and I think I read on here that there would be some for 2016... but not sure on specifics... I guess the local travel agents will know about Lourdes.




EI-BUD

[airnoc]

Re Knock /New York flights:D


Aer Lingus has provide four aircraft for Knock/New York pilgrimage to fill and they will land in IWAK. This on the strength of feed back from the maiden flight that took place in August 2015 and looking at return flights:D

[Dreamliner_01]

Hope your right but cant see it happening....

[iwak]

So Shannon is getting its edinburgh flight back next March it will be operated 6 weekly with stobart air .Im sure this will be a bit of a blow for flybe but I still think with the right marketing and with the stronger economy the two can co exist .In saying that I do think 4 weekly is a more realistic timetable.

Good to see Aer Lingus adding 3 extra rotations over the Xmas hols to Lgw !

[AerRyan]

Can't see flybe sticking around for long. Maybe for next year, off for 2017 and back for 2018. Flybe has to be the most inconsistent airline I have seen.

[Dreamliner_01]

Can't see flybe sticking around for long. Maybe for next year, off for 2017 and back for 2018. Flybe has to be the most inconsistent airline I have seen.

Flybe been at the airport since 2012 and appear to be having their best year on record on Manchester service - why wouldn't they hang around ?? Plenty enough market for both SNN and NOC although sgree six per week a bit heavy although only for the summer at those frequencies

[Dreamliner_01]

So Shannon is getting its edinburgh flight back next March it will be operated 6 weekly with stobart air .Im sure this will be a bit of a blow for flybe but I still think with the right marketing and with the stronger economy the two can co exist .In saying that I do think 4 weekly is a more realistic timetable.

Good to see Aer Lingus adding 3 extra rotations over the Xmas hols to Lgw !

Agree knock has all the north west to cater for big enough market for both I see adverts last week in the Galway market and on radio so at least they starting early !!

[AerRyan]

They won't stick around simply because they are Flybe. Okay maybe the MAN service will stay, maybe it won't. Looking at their past they really decide that new routes are more important than sustaining existing ones. Look at the amount of routes that have commenced and been pulled over the past few years in Ireland by Flybe.

[Dreamliner_01]

They won't stick around simply because they are Flybe. Okay maybe the MAN service will stay, maybe it won't. Looking at their past they really decide that new routes are more important than sustaining existing ones. Look at the amount of routes that have commenced and been pulled over the past few years in Ireland by Flybe.

In fairness plenty of other airlines that fall into that category as well

Stobart air wouldn't exactly cover themselves in glory in this regard either

[Kinocker]

They won't stick around simply because they are Flybe. Okay maybe the MAN service will stay, maybe it won't. Looking at their past they really decide that new routes are more important than sustaining existing ones. Look at the amount of routes that have commenced and been pulled over the past few years in Ireland by Flybe.

Flybe are no more or less guilty of this than any other airline that operate in this country to be honest. Fair enough, they didn't stick around long on the one route they started at Shannon, but with loads struggling to break 20 per flight for them down there it was hardly surprising.

I don't think the Shannon to Edinburgh route will have too much relevance to Knock to be honest. I can't imagine too many people in the west/north-west travelling down to Shannon to fly on an ATR at the prices Stobart charge. Similarly, next to nobody from or going to the mid west region was going to travel via Knock. Most passengers in the 'battleground' area between the two airports along the M6 corridor will probably choose Ryanair from Dublin rather than either turboprop option - and that's where both of these routes are competing really, to convince passengers in their respective regions not to fly via Dublin. Hopefully they will both succeed, with jet fuel prices down and staying down they should have a good chance.

The main concern I had for the Knock route was that Shannon might secure a Ryanair service to Edinburgh. Ryanair's fares tend to pull in passengers from further afield and a Ryanair service from Shannon to Edinburgh would have eaten into Knock's catchment area and put huge pressure on the new Knock route. However that hasn't happened.

[Dreamliner_01]

uve hit the nail on the head there Kinocker superb summary and I think you are spot on with your comments in this regard - your 100% right in that a Ryanair operation to Edinburgh out of either airport would have sucked up most of the traffic - both Stobart and Flybe have similar pricing models so galway be main battleground

[iwak]

I agree with kinocker also it's probably a better option having stobart rather than fr.Kinocker you were a regular user of the edi service the last time it operated and you always reported a pretty good load factor when you travelled .Timings are important for knock routes as they are mainly used for leisure .I think a late eve Sunday flight should be a must for the winter .i know there are many students from the west of Ireland studying in Edinburgh and good weekend timings are important for inbound and outbound passengers.

[AerRyan]

Comparing the two services now, on the cheapest days, SNN-EDI is €64.98 and NOC-EDI is €78.55. The lower fares are also alot less frequent on the Knock service. Both are 6 weekly and not operating on Saturdays.

[Fly_bill]

Comparing the two services now, on the cheapest days, SNN-EDI is €64.98 and NOC-EDI is €78.55. The lower fares are also alot less frequent on the Knock service. Both are 6 weekly and not operating on Saturdays.

I genuinely don't think €15 fate difference is going to entice people from either catchment to travel to the other airport - as rightly pointed out by most the big advantage would have been if either airport had got Ryanair on the route - the €10 fares would have mopped up the passengers - Flybe snd stobart are much the same so don't see that there will be very much at all between the fares on offer - plus very early days profile of UK bookers is 3-4 weeks in advance of travel

[AerRyan]

Not from each others catchment, but the place In the middle, Galway. At €65 it compared very favourably to Ryanair from Dublin, with also good bus links now from Galway to Shannon it may be a deal breaker.

[Fly_bill]

Not from each others catchment, but the place In the middle, Galway. At €65 it compared very favourably to Ryanair from Dublin, with also good bus links now from Galway to Shannon it may be a deal breaker.

Good point Galway is probably the price sensitive point - that said Ryanair will no doubt crank up the pressure on the fares and neither stobart / Flybe will be able to compete - you won't get the €60/70 fare from June to August but Ryanair will still drive the price down during these months

[AerRyan]

Where Ryanair will win is awareness. The amount of people who would just automatically pick Ryanair from Dublin would shock a person.

[Fly_bill]

Where Ryanair will win is awareness. The amount of people who would just automatically pick Ryanair from Dublin would shock a person.

Agree. I think that applies at all airports in Ireland really - some people think Ryanair fly ever route from all airports !!!! They win the fares battle hands down as well though in fairness versus the turbo prop operators

[iwak]

Just looking at the timings of the Lgw summer flight timetable can't see where the aircraft coming from as it doesn't fit with the dub Lgw timings.

[Dreamliner_01]

Another charter from the US - Boston this time to come into knock airport in July - keeps the momentum going after the New York charter last summer hopefully something more substantial for 2017! Definitely a market there to capitalise on in the summer at least

[AerRyan]

What market does a once off charter prove?

[Dreamliner_01]

What market does a once off charter prove?

One off proves nothing - market there as was demonstrated in 2007 when they had an unknown carrier service both Boston and New York - certainly a seasonal operation with an established carrier would do well - while north west of Ireland market to cater for - especially given the current strong dollar and influx of US tourists - you not agree ??

[AerRyan]

The Flyglobespan service proved little. It originated in GLA and LPL, only stopped in NOC and wasn't daily.

There may be some market peak season, but not daily, which is what US services really need and faced with strong competition from DUB and SNN, no airlines would be willing to further dilute their yields by going to Knock.

That's my opinion.

[Dreamliner_01]

The Flyglobespan service proved little. It originated in GLA and LPL, only stopped in NOC and wasn't daily.

There may be some market peak season, but not daily, which is what US services really need and faced with strong competition from DUB and SNN, no airlines would be willing to further dilute their yields by going to Knock.

That's my opinion.

Agree don't thinks daily service but certainly a 3/4 week could work - the GLA / LPL legs were weak majority of traffic was knock related - the Norwegian one is interesting as they obviously intent on taking on the established carriers in Ireland - could see them doing a knock if cork goes well when it eventually gets up and running

[AerRyan]

The Norwegian point is interesting, but I'd still be unsure as to whether they would actually try Knock.

[Dreamliner_01]

The Norwegian point is interesting, but I'd still be unsure as to whether they would actually try Knock.

Knock makes more sense than cork given the close proximity of Shannon to cork and level of competition there - noc has whole north west potentially to capture - interesting times who knows - the world is changing !!

[AerRyan]

Population is alot higher in Cork. In fairness there's very few up in the north west.

[Dreamliner_01]

Population is alot higher in Cork. In fairness there's very few up in the north west.

Think you'll find there's much of a muchness - cork pop 511,000 Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim, Sligo, Donegal and half of Galway (assuming south Galway chooses Shannon) is well over 500,000

[AerRyan]

There's a difference in catchment though.

Within 30mins are a lot more dedicated to the local airport. In Cork that's over quarter of a million, Knock is about 10 (okay maybe 20,000). I also don't believe the population of those counties even equal 500,000. A fair comparison would include Waterford, Kerry and half of Tipp for Cork.

[Kinocker]

I'm not sure that comparing airports based on a 30 minute travel time is particularly relevant in the case of Knock. Most of Knock's catchment isn't within 30 minutes drive of the airport - but they're not within 30 minutes drive of any other airport either. They're still people though, and they need to fly places. I wouldn't discount their business just because they live more than 30 minutes from an airport.

Overall Cork obviously does have a bigger catchment than Knock - and that is reflected in the respective airport passenger numbers - but I wouldn't agree that people who live 45 minutes or an hour or more from their nearest airport are any less 'dedicated' - as you put it - than anyone else.

[AerRyan]

If you live more than 30mins away, your choices are more open. Your more willing to travel to Dublin and what happens is people don't even look out of their regional (Shannon, Cork, Knock) and just go straight to Dublin.

[Dreamliner_01]

There's a difference in catchment though.

Within 30mins are a lot more dedicated to the local airport. In Cork that's over quarter of a million, Knock is about 10 (okay maybe 20,000). I also don't believe the population of those counties even equal 500,000. A fair comparison would include Waterford, Kerry and half of Tipp for Cork.

130,000 live in Mayo alone, Galway 250,000 check the stats out yourself if you 'don't believe it' :) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irish_counties_by_population

[confused atco]

the GLA / LPL legs were weak majority of traffic was knock related
Do you have a source for this?

[runawayedge]

Can't see this working for a number of reasons;

1. No potential for daily.
2. Seasonal demand only - suspect rock bottom yield
3. Zero business traffic.
4. Catchment area too limited. Galway catchment chooses Dublin then Shannon.
5. Departure fee at NOC.
6. No CBP
7. Lost opportunity to other profitable potentials.
8. Marketing costs of a three weekly for a couple of months to an unknown airport (in the US).

I could go on.

[Fly_bill]

Can't see this working for a number of reasons;

1. No potential for daily.
2. Seasonal demand only - suspect rock bottom yield
3. Zero business traffic.
4. Catchment area too limited. Galway catchment chooses Dublin then Shannon.
5. Departure fee at NOC.
6. No CBP
7. Lost opportunity to other profitable potentials.
8. Marketing costs of a three weekly for a couple of months to an unknown airport (in the US).

I could go on.

Very valid points but you never know a Norwegian or a carrier like that could take a punt similar to what they planning at cork to shake up the market - the US market is very strong so if it's ever going to happen it will in the next couple of years

[AerRyan]

Wrong, galway catchment generally chooses SNN for TATL, due to lower prices, cheaper car parking and it being nearer

[Dreamliner_01]

Ryanair havd added an additional weekly rotation on day two from June to August on EMA service - no doubt in response to Flybe BHX launch - great Selection now to that part of the U.K. Now for people from the west and North West

[AerRyan]

Will be interesting to see numbers and LF's on the routes.

[Dreamliner_01]

Will be interesting to see numbers and LF's on the routes.

Absolutely probably too much capacity but that said this part of the U.K. Has always been strong from knock have more or Always had services to both airports even had two jets for s number of years when bmi baby were still around

[AerRyan]

Reduction in SNN-MAN should help at least.

[Kinocker]

Knock's 2015 passenger numbers were 689,080, a drop of 2%. On their website today they are predicting an increase of 3% to 710,000 next year, which would be a new record for the airport.

[Dreamliner_01]

Knock's 2015 passenger numbers were 689,080, a drop of 2%. On their website today they are predicting an increase of 3% to 710,000 next year, which would be a new record for the airport.

Was expecting numbers to be a lot lower given they lost four to five routes last year obviously the UK routes etc performed very strongly - decent numbers in the end and great to see forecasting a record year this year