IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK

[Kinocker]

Very decent loads for the time of year given the sheer number of sun flights now available from Knock. Good recovery from Gran Can as well after some bad numbers before Easter.

447 passengers also travelled to/from Jerez in May.

[sawtooth]

ALC - 69% - 26 flights - 3404 filled out of 4914.
REU - 66% - 26 flights - 3283 filled out of 4914.
LPA -76% - 10 flights - 1443 filled out of 1890.
ACE - 86% - 8 flights - 1305 filled out of 1512.
TFS - 77% - 8 flights - 1170 filled out of 1512.

Good for May, would expect better numbers for the summer months. No surprised LPA improved, lots looking for some variety in holday destinations.

-----

Business Post ran a long interview with the airports manager this week, summarised the main points:

Interview Joe Gilmore (http://www.thepost.ie/news-features/business-interview-joe-gilmore-56831.html)

Cost cuts:
"The bitterest pill was a salary cut tiered from 10 per cent up to 30 per cent for senior management, and a major reduction in overtime. Gilmore credits his staff with recognising that the airport was fighting for its survival"

- Turnover dropped by 23 per cent
- Total operational costs cut by 15% since 09
- Full-time equivalent workforce fell by 11% over the same time
- Total human resource costs slashed by 19%
- Employee costs per passenger have been reduced by 20%
- Operational cost for every passenger has fallen by 17%

Routes:
‘‘What business people are looking for is a flight direct into Schipol or Frankfurt or Charles de Gaulle, or direct services on a small jet to Heathrow that would give them connectivity," he said.

- Gains in passenger numbers last year "obliterated" by the Icelandic ash cloud (estimated 25,000 passenger loss)
- The forecast this year is 646,000
- Leeds and Bristol, have load factors of less than 50 per cent
- Average London Stansted and Luton are "high - up to 78 %"
- Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham and London Gatwick are all in the mid 60s
- Wants to open routes into Germany, similar to Kerry airport’s Frankfurt and the summer Munich services into Cork

Marketing:
‘‘The tourism agencies have to be accountable to deliver certain targets and not just deliver broad-based objectives," he said. "Tourism Ireland doesn’t have regional targets for the west of Ireland. It operates on national targets.
People are coming to the west of Ireland regardless of the work of the tourism agencies, not because of it."

Future development:
- Ambitious plan presented to government for funding of €25million over the next ten years
- Would grow passenger numbers over 1 million
- Includes €6m to extend the number of aprons stands
- €3.5m to develop the arrivals to the same standard as departures hall
- RESA and runway refurbishment of €9 million

"Department of Transport analysis shows that, since 2000, Knock has delivered the second-highest return on Capex investment, in terms of increased passenger numbers, among the regional airports."

[Jamie2k9]

STN - daily
LTN - daily
LPL - daily
EMA - 3 weekly

[FR-]

Glad to see EMA is to stop with BRS and LBA both gone for the winter.

fr-

[LBIA]

Ryanair's Knock - LBA route should be back on sale tomorrow for the winter.

As it was announced today that the Knock route will be 1 of ryanair's 13 winter services from its LBA base this coming winter season.

[Jamie2k9]

I wouldn't think so as Ryanair say that LBA - FAO is not operating when it has being bookable for weeks. The table with the routes was probaly copyied from the other press relase and the two new LBA routes added to it.

[sawtooth]

May UK figures:

STN 8860 +17%
LGW 6376 -1%
LTN 5833 +42%
LPL 5440 +52%
MAN 4051 +2%
EMA 3832 +7%
BHX 3776 +8%
BRS 2700 +10%
EDI 1039 (new)
LBA N/A

[Kinocker]

EDI loads staying on the right side of 50% for May which is good to see. Some of the other loads are average enough though given that the ash cloud had a fair impact in May of last year.

When the scheduled and charter flights to Faro and all those charters to Lourdes are thrown in the total passenger numbers for May should end up at about 60,000.

Ryanair going back to daily on the Luton route for the winter means there will be a serious abount of Knock to London capacity on offer for the time of year, three return flights a day. Yet the timings are still hopeless for day returns - you would think it would make sense for Ryanair to at least put Luton and Stansted on at opposite ends of the day and let Aer Lingus do Gatwick in between rather than have all three flights running between mid-morning and early afternoon.

[sawtooth]

Yet the timings are still hopeless for day returns - you would think it would make sense for Ryanair to at least put Luton and Stansted on at opposite ends of the day and let Aer Lingus do Gatwick in between rather than have all three flights running between mid-morning and early afternoon.

LTN 11.25 daily
STN 13.25 daily (8.30 Monday)
LGW 15.45 daily

Last year there were at least early morning flights out. With the messing going on with GWY-LTN you'd think they would at least attempt to offer a viable alternative to users in the West. Late service on Fri and Sun would facilitate so many workers and weekenders both ways :ugh:

Guess you have to be grateful for small mercies with FR, could have had both flights at 5.20am!

[Knock63]

It would appear that those in power at IWAK seem to prefer the "in between office hours" approach to flight times. Keeps the working day (wages) down to a minimum.

[Roll to the end]

It would seem that way Knock63, I guess they're main objective is to make the operation viable so perhaps its the airport to an extent is getting in the way of an early and late flight to Lon.

[iwak]

I would prefer to see man sorted with flybe than a double daily stn.

[sawtooth]

It would appear that those in power at IWAK seem to prefer the "in between office hours" approach to flight times. Keeps the working day (wages) down to a minimum.

Really, I was under the impression the airports have little input into FR schedules? If it was worth staying open for 10 pax on an ATR every evening surely benefits of a proper schedule to London and resulting growth is worth it.

It would seem that way Knock63, I guess they're main objective is to make the operation viable so perhaps its the airport to an extent is getting in the way of an early and late flight to Lon.

I know there the implications of longer operating hours with ATC, fire cover, met, staff and energy costs etc. CAT2 morning flights may also come at a cost. Does this imply shorter operating hours after PSO ends, or "tea breaks" like GWY?

[Knock63]

Definitely a shorter working day after the PSO has gone.

[Knock63]

Heard a rumour today that FR are going to take on the Man route when BMI step aside. It came from a good source. Don't know if it would be viable with them already doing LVP unless they think the footy fans could fill both.

[Jamie2k9]

It might happon but I think it wont. Would love to see Jet2 operate the route. They have B737-300.

[iwak]

Manchester is a well established viable route I think fr would jump at it .in the winter I think 4per week would be ample on a 738 however with a Flybe 195 it could be daily all year round which would be much more attractive to pax.

In saying that it would be good to see jet 2 at knock.

[FR-]

What based crew would do the NOC-MAN? EMA has the spare a/c hint hint dublin.

fr-

[sawtooth]

MAN was double daily in summer at one point, and offered a hub connection option from NOC. I'm sure FR appeal would draw a lot back to the route in terms of numbers, at the expense of LPL/LBA.

But I fear that would mean low frequency on the 738, WW were 6x733, but the route could sustain daily with a smaller carrier and make it more attractive as a hub connection.

[iwak]

I would imagine it would be a dub based aircraft if fr were to take the route. I think a flybe 195 with a 2nd dash 8 on certain days over the summer peak season would be a perfect set up. Here's hoping for flybe but I doubt fr would let this one go .

[Roll to the end]

Exactly I really hope the airport are pursuing Flybe for Manchester, in my opinion they're a perfect fit and could have a lot more to offer in the future. I also wouldn't rule out EI either.

It would be great for Ryanair to take it up but it doesn't offer anything new, what Knock needs is connectivity something EI and Flybe have to a small extent in man.

[NorthernCounties]

I think it'll be BE that takes it in the end. I could definitely see NOC getting the Thursday slot which LDY currently has due to under performance on that day.

[Knock63]

LGW hit by lightning today and diverted to Heathrow, lots of unhappy Lingus pax, been a bad few days with Sundays late flite too, glad to say that none of it was IWAKs fault.

[Jamie2k9]

It took just under 2 hours after departure from LGW to divert to LHR.

One thing the airprot need to improve on is updating the Live Flight info on website.

At 7 this evening it was showing Aer Lingus arrival and departure to LGW as Delayed when it was cancelled hours before that.

[sawtooth]

Couple of unusual visitors, presumably private charter? Swiftair arrival on the board today from Pamplona. Also Swiss air ambulance made another visit last week, their Bombardier 604 was in last summer also.

[JobsaGoodun]

If the MANNOC route is vacant then I'm sure that BE might take a look but I don't expect you'll see a E95 anytime soon. BE go for business frequency over capacity so much more likely to get a twice daily DH4 if anything.

[iwak]

Well knock man is mainly a leisure route. during the winter months ww operated 4 per week with 737 300 149 seater giving just under 1200 seats per wk.

A daily e195 would give 1652 however the extra 450 seats could be justified with having a 7 day week service which would be more appealing to travellers and compete with aer arann in Galway.

[Knock63]

The Swiftair Pamplona flight brought in Spanish children for their Irish summer experience on an MD83.

[iwak]

Well it looks like ryanair are to announce a base at man according to the man/ryanair thread. So i would be very surprised if they didn't take the noc route.

Would have liked to have seen flybe but fr will produce the volumes the airport needs .I would hope to see a daily service which would be possible as ww were four weekly to man and lba was 3 wkly with fr.

[NorthernCounties]

According to Jame2k9:

NOC is due to be one of the routes.

So you can take it as set in stone! Pity BE didn't pull there finger out!

[sawtooth]

I'm sure FR will make a good go of MAN, hopefully daily. Dampen the loss of LBA.

More frequent services to the hub would have been better for passengers, but FR are the carrier to put good numbers on the route for NOC.

[Roll to the end]

I'm not sure about this news, I'd be very surprised if Ryanair did take it up surely they'll put the Liverpool service under pressure.

The only way I could interrupt this is they're protecting home ground, flybe could be looking at opportunities from knock and the man route was definitely one of them.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Roll to the end -

MAN-NOC is a current route which supports B733's several times per week (frequency varies according to season), regardless of what happens ex-LPL. This mature proven route will be vacated when BMI Baby close their MAN hub; replacing them is an opportunity for another carrier ... why not RYR? If not them it will be somebody else. And don't forget that whilst the MAN and LPL catchment areas overlap they are far from identical. It is a myth that services between the two are interchangeable ... hence the likelihood that RYR will have bases at both of these airports (plus EMA & LBA relatively nearby).

[Knock63]

I was told today by someone that was speaking to an FR pilot over the weekend that FR was DEFINITELY taking on the Man route. I'm sure they'll do a great job of it, same old fear though, O'Leary having an even tighter grip on Knock, upset him and it's "Bye-Bye IWAK".

[anna_list]

Hi Shed-on-a-Pole and Roll to the end,

I think you're both probably right: Yes, LPL and MAN have their own catchment areas, but when you're dealing with a small market (e.g. NOC) there's evidence that the two airports affect each other.

As you can see from the CAA data below, bmibaby's MAN-NOC service has been losing passengers ever since Ryanair launched the LPL service in 2007. The LBA 'pincer movement' undoubtedly added to the pain last year. Loads on MAN-NOC have also been declining, from an average of 77% in 2008 to 64% last year. Loads on NOC-LPL have been consistently awful, averaging 52% last year. I doubt that yields have been spectacular for either carrier.

If Ryanair are going to do NOC from both LPL and MAN, they will almost certainly need to adjust their frequencies from LPL. I'm sure that daily B738 services are not sustainable from both. How big is the market at ticket prices that are sustainable? Maybe 100,000 per year from both MAN and LPL? In which case I would suggest that a total of 7 or 8 services a week from both is what we will end up with. Come back to me on that one next year ;) The same problem will occur if they try LDY from both LPL and MAN.

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7061/mannoc.jpg

A similar situation exists on NOC to BHX / EMA, where growth to EMA has been at the expense of BHX. However, so far bmibaby are holding out.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7784/bhxnoc.jpg

[CARNMANORLAD]

Id like RYR to give both NOC & LDY the MAN route as roughly how mant PAX would travel from the North-West to BFS or BHD to get to MAN? I bet quite a few do, i know i did last week as i needed to travel on a Tuesday and BE didnt do MAN from LDY on that day. I travelled with WW although i must admit the load was pretty dirr bout 30-40 PAX!

[Roll to the end]

My point is that at the moment it's ryanair and Bmi competing, so if the baby left why would ryanair come in and coax passengers from both sides at the expense of yield from lpl. Surely it would be better for them to operate one of them.

Hence my feeling that it mainly is a territorial move against flybe than anything.:8

[sawtooth]

Airport chairman Liam Scollan has an op-ed article in todays Independent on future of "regional" air access, interesting comments in light of regional debate, particularly on raising our low tourism targets.

Fittest not fattest should survive terminal decline (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/liam-scollan-fittest-not-fattest-should-survive-terminal-decline-2812134.html)


...Are we to be content with small single-digit increases on current visitor numbers from a small seven million base or should we look to countries like Austria, with similar size and 22 million international visitors?

Perhaps the idea of even doubling tourism revenues in the next three years sounds daft -- almost as daft as building an airport on a foggy boggy hill! OUR own airport achieved 300pc growth in the last nine years despite the terminal decline that was predicted.

Our client airlines such as Ryanair, Flybe, Aer Lingus, and bmibaby, form a basis on which further significant tourism increases can be achieved. To get it right we have to throw out outmoded twin-track policies for state and non-state airports and replace them with policies that favour efficiency, independence and ambition.

Tourism equally needs a radical shift to recognising that the development of new routes is the real driver of tourism growth and the way to achieve a major uplift in national and regional economies.

[EI-BUD]

Hence my feeling that it mainly is a territorial move against flybe than anything


Roll to the end; Ryanair seem to avoid Flybe like the plague, it would seem that the Q800 is very suited to thin routes and FR dont bother going after them. For this reason I cannot see FR following BE onto anyroute anytime soon, and if BE were to vacate a route, it is argueable that there is far too limited a market for FR in any case!!??

EI-BUD

[iwak]

So winter 2011/12

Ltn daily same as last year

STn daily same as last year

Man ?...

Bhx 4 weekly same as last year

Ema 3 weekly same as last year

Lpl daily same as last year

Edi 3 weekly new route

Tfs 1 weekly new route

Ace 1 weekly new route

So a loss of 6 movements from fr with brs and lba gone however 5 gained with edi and canaries and we will wait and see what Manchester brings.

Liam scollan said in Sunday world yesterday that Germany,France and italy are the countries they expect to have routes to before too long.

Lgw daily

[Kinocker]

Gatwick is gone daily this winter from 4/week last winter as well so it looks like a net gain in flights and pax overall as things stand. Off memory I thought LPL was 6/week last winter?

We will need to see what the MAN announcement brings and whether this has any impact on LPL but given that previously we had MAN 4/week and LBA 3/week with MAN being run by the more expensive Bmibaby you would think that any new Ryanair MAN service could operate without a reduction at LPL.

Any new routes beyond that would likely be european destinations (unless someone else fancies a crack at Bristol) so I'd guess you'd be looking at the summer 2012 schedule for further route expansion. Hopefully the seasonal routes all come back next year but there seems to be issues at the Reus base. Gran Can may also not return.

[Jamie2k9]

Reus base is closing and FR said it wont reopen but they would operate flights from other bases. They may do NOC as a W route.

Don't know the latest with the fallout in ALC is but I would expect most if not all routes to return next summer.

[Cyrano]

Airport chairman Liam Scollan has an op-ed article in todays Independent on future of "regional" air access, interesting comments in light of regional debate, particularly on raising our low tourism targets.

"...Are we to be content with small single-digit increases on current visitor numbers from a small seven million base or should we look to countries like Austria, with similar size and 22 million international visitors?"

He omits to mention that according to the OECD stats, (http://books.google.ie/books?id=bQum9p3q6UYC&lpg=PA123&ots=QSUSA_tRyY&dq=austria%20inbound%20tourism&pg=PA123#v=onepage&q=austria%20inbound%20tourism&f=false)11 million of the 22 million visitors to Austria are coming from Germany, most of whom will just be driving down the autobahn rather than taking ferries/planes etc., and a good proportion of whom will be coming for ski weekends. I'm all for aggressive targets, but let them be realistic aggressive targets!

[Knock63]

That's Scollan for you tho, head in the clouds and no idea what's happening on the ground!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Roll to the end]

Well ya gotta give Liam some credit he's probably the only one out of the regional airports that speaks sense and doesn't necessarily expect handouts unlike other airports, he really has turned that place around since he showed up.

One wonders if fr as expected take man where does that leave flybe? are there any opportunities from noc for them? perhaps a summer Jersey service I assume the airport see Flybe as the one that in the future may possibly give them that all important service to cdg.

But i do wonder could ei be persuaded into a lhr service if a slot became available.

[iwak]

Still no announcement of fr man base yet. If things haven't gone to plan we could well see flybe on man .

[Knock63]

I hope someone does take up the Man route, and soon, whether its FR or BE or any one else for that matter. I'm sure any positive news would give the workforce a lift, with the main season well and truly on the way they'll be worrying about what cut backs are on the way this winter ???

[sawtooth]

I'm sure any positive news would give the workforce a lift, with the main season well and truly on the way they'll be worrying about what cut backs are on the way this winter ???

Does seem to have been a tough year for staff from the cuts outlined in the Business Post article. End of DUB may be a bigger worry, operating hours not currently NOTAM'd.

An earlier post by iwak suggested movements would be about the same as last winter with the additional winter sun/EDI and some frequencies up, latest projection is for 630,000.

No mention of NOC in relation to the Governments travel tax incentive either, just talk of delaying it as the airlines haven't played ball. So unlikely to be any new winter routes at this stage.

[Jamie2k9]

Just in relation to NOC airport management going on about adding routes to Italy, France etc. What the management need to do is have a morning and evening service to London. Its all well and good having 3 in the middle of the day but its not use for business travel.

If an airport like WAT can stay open from 06.00 - 23.00 Mon - Sun (7.00 - 21.00 Sat) why can't NOC. It just hard to believe a small airport like WAT can and the 4 busiest in ROI can't.

On another note the charter flights to Faro for summer 2012 have being dropped.

FR timetable change:
ACE - NOC - 14.50 - 19.15
NOC - ACE - 19.40 - 00.05

[sawtooth]

What the management need to do is have a morning and evening service to London.

I totally agree and it's a recurring point. Someone hinted a while back that NOC were more focused on operating costs this year.

I know it's mostly leisure/VFR based, fine for most routes where people will trade frequency for direct and low cost. But not building on LON frequencies is madness. It's is in a position attract regular business travelers and connections with a more reliable twice daily, or at least facilitate leisure traffic with late Fri/Sun return service (you would think the airport built on emigration would have this covered).

This is the exact time NOC should chasing those services as two nearest airports lose PSO DUB hub connections and may close. Should they just let GWY-LTN users move to more frequent connections from SNN?

Frequency was a luxury when it was a tiny airport struggling to keep a handful of routes. If NOC wants to live up to it's stated aim of becoming the key access point to the region it needs a decent LON schedule at a minimum.

If an airport like WAT can stay open from 06.00 - 23.00... why can't NOC.

Good point, though WAT needed about €2m in annual OPEX funding as a result.

On another note the charter flights to Faro for summer 2012 have being dropped.

That leaves ACE, DBV and some pilgrimage charters down from a peak of 12. Not surprising given FR sun expansion, but would be good to see charters try more diverse routes rather than go up against FR. PMI, BOD, PUF, VRN, LQA, HER worth a try, GNB for winter?

[Roll to the end]

Exactly, from what can seen there is this kinda "get through this year attitude" I'd like to think improved London frequencies is on the agenda up there. I'll be flying out there next week so it will be interesting to see how busy it is.

With the loss of faro next year, charters that are out of the range of Ryanair need to be pursued to salvage any charter operations. Routes to Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria are very popular with Irish.

I was curious is there many connection options from Gatwick, I know of people meeting emirates to dubai using this service but thats it. Does lgw offer more, and if so perhaps this needs to be advertised a bit more.

[j636]

Good point, though WAT needed about €2m in annual OPEX funding as a result.


Does NOC not get over a million funding to. Think the WAT is now about a million to.

The morning and evening London services could be done within the current hours that flights depart. They could get FR to do a morning STN and evening LTN or something like that.

arrive NOC - 08.00 - depart - 08.25
arrive NOC - 19.00 - depart - 19.25

Charter flights to PMI and Bourgas operated before and they were dropped for a reason.

NOC management want to get European routes when they can't provide a proper service to London.

[Knock63]

I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the management at IWAK appear to be quite happy at the moment to be operating "office hours" which they will be doing in a couple of weeks time when the Aran goes. This keeps the wage bill down and whilst you would think that more flights equals a bigger influx of passenger spending, the "team" at IWAK don't agree, what they are saying is "the pax numbers are up but they're just not spending". It appears they seem to think that it'll cost more in wages to open later hours than they will take in, its not profitable enough. Early AND late flights to London is a brilliant idea, I'm up there quite a bit and ALL the London bound planes seem to be running at a high level of numbers, come on Mr. Scollan, Mr.Gilmore and whoever else pull the strings up there, SORT IT OUT.

[sawtooth]

Surely that makes numbers more important than ever! The pax spending may not return for a very long time, if ever, it's as much to do with a change in habits as the economy. A large part of NOCs appeal is speed in and out. Airline policies discourage carry baggage and endless fees make pax cost sensitive. It's a long way off the shopping centre ambience of a large hub.

Drop off visitors used to stay in the viewing lounge but are put off by parking and bar costs. Instead of costly fast food why not offer quality to attract spend. If retail units were added high street retail brands might have more success and bring in rents. Why not differentiate with parking fee deals, they had offers for weekend and holiday parking in the past that were very attractive.

Bums on seats are the bottom line (pardon the pun). Departure fees and parking charges pay the bills. 100,000 more on LON would surely outweigh operating cost, and further justify capital investment plans. They might even buy more breakfasts.

[Knock63]

I couldn't agree more, bums on seats etc..... but why are there no flights on a Sunday til 13:10........... Sunday pay rate ???

[iwhak]

Can someone please tell me where 189 'day return' business pax are going to emerge from? On another note, NOC and yield do not go hand in hand!

[Knock63]

They could always try someone with a smaller aircraft if they can't get enough pax to fill a 737. Would someone like City Jet work ?

[Jamie2k9]

If the flights do well in the middle of the day they would do even better in the morning and evening.

If another airline steped in FR would not take long to have morning and evening flights.

[Mayfly1]

I fully agree IWAK needs better London connectivity to serve all it's travelling passengers..with early morning and late evening jet services preferrably from a main hub airport, like Heathrow. No business person wishes to travel on a turoboprop to London, despite what they may say, especially in the middle of our winters. The issue for IWAK is one of financial and commerical realities, especially when they have to operate as an independent business without the safety net of the DAA/state backed support structure. Look at Shannon their main competitor for jet access on the west coast, it has lost €10 million in 2010, (after a similar loss in 2009) and with 3 times the pax numbers (including the high spending military business)..and the DAA writes the cheque to keep it open.

If IWAK operated in this manner it would be closed many years ago.. In IWAK's case it has to literally "beg" government for any future finacial support despite it being clearly a very well run operation from a financial perspective. The core issue here is future government aviation policy and where IWAK is positioned in this, and what the west needs in terms of business/tourism and vfr connectivity. The political leaders in the west of Ireland need to play a much greater part in shaping the future of aviaiton and aiport access in the west of Ireland.

[Cyrano]

They could get FR to do a morning STN and evening LTN or something like that.

arrive NOC - 08.00 - depart - 08.25
arrive NOC - 19.00 - depart - 19.25


I have to smile at this "they could get FR to do..."

Do you not understand the basic dynamic here? Airports don't "get" FR to do anything. They take what FR gives them. And no, this isn't an anti-Ryanair rant - it's the same with other carriers, except that the power imbalance is probably at its most extreme in the case of FR and small secondary airports.

A typical airline (e.g. operating several flights a day on a route) will make more revenue from morning and evening flights because there'll be more business passengers on those than on midday flights. From the network planners' point of view, their aircraft are therefore more in demand morning and evening than in the middle of the day - that gap between the prime times is where the "midday fillers" go, the low-frequency routes whose revenue is less and whose timing is less critical. While Ryanair doesn't focus on business passengers in the same way as some other carriers, they've clearly reasoned that it's not currently worth their while to change the times of their NOC flights since the main market is non-time-sensitive leisure. IWHAK is quite right with his/her comment:
Can someone please tell me where 189 'day return' business pax are going to emerge from? On another note, NOC and yield do not go hand in hand!
There are only two reasons Ryanair would switch to a twice-daily morning and evening schedule here:

if someone else threatened to do it and they wanted to see them off.
If the airport made them an offer they couldn't refuse ("fly twice daily and we'll pay you €10 per passenger").

It will not escape your notice that the latter approach does nothing for the airport's profitability or sustainability.

They could always try someone with a smaller aircraft if they can't get enough pax to fill a 737. Would someone like City Jet work ?
Sorry, but NO. How on earth would a relatively-high-cost-but-high-yield operator like Cityjet could find the Knock-London market attractive? As a quick (in)sanity check: booking now, I could fly NOC-STN on Wednesday morning for about €71, for tomorrow morning €128 (so that's likely to be close to the highest fare that FR is going to sell on that flight). The cheapest DUB-LCY fare on any Cityjet flight on Wednesday is about €170 (€190 for tomorrow). LCY is an expensive airport, but AVRO RJs are expensive aircraft to operate too. How do you propose that Cityjet, already loss-making, would make money flying a much longer sector for much lower yields?

Hope springs eternal, and all that, but these ideas that NOC will support a twice-daily prime-time London service, or a daily continental European hub connection, are just not realistic. I'm all for setting aggressive goals, but as I said in this thread a few days ago, let them be realistic - otherwise you may as well target an Emirates service.

C.

[sawtooth]

Cyrano, yes we might be going a bit far suggesting double daily or high yield business carriers. And yes NOC has to take what it gets in a time where numbers have fallen.

But if GWY had 3 midday LON services it would have closed years ago. LTN was successful for many years even with high RE fares because it offered some flexibility for business or leisure alike without forcing traveler to take extra days off work to go to an event or visit friends. What business traffic is in the region for NOC we'll never know as it's never really been tested.

I think this all started when it was inferred in earlier posts that NOC were the party against early and late services, and deducted that therefore FR were interested, they have double daily on some STN-LDY rotations for instance. I don't know if that's true.

The general point is some of us believe a better schedule is critical to sustain and increase numbers and yields. If better frequencies were available then pax might have an incentive to pay more, I'd happily pay another €50 rather than take 2 days off work to fit their schedule.

I still believe it would be in FR interest to at least offer some weekend flexibility for the main leisure market, extra FRI/SUN late service or later departure times on existing.

[EI-BUD]

How on earth would a relatively-high-cost-but-high-yield operator like Cityjet could find the Knock-London market attractive?

This is exactly right cyrano.

It is not just important that airports get the right routes going but also that the right carriers are to serve them. A route that cityjet would operate from Knock would soon be deemed unviable, while an airline with appropriate cost base and fare structure that suit that market ie Knock more leisure than business, and IMPORTANTLY has the appropriate MARKETING PRESENCE. Apart from Cityjet being a challenge in the level of fares charges, getting the customer to identify Cityjet as an airline to consult for flying between Knock and London would be equally challenging.

I am thinking of the short lived Knock US scheduled service operated by Flyglobespan. Unfortunately, the route closed as a result of the collapse of the airline. This makes it equally difficult to fill this market again as the previous operator didnt survive and to attract an airline this would need to be overcome.

EI-BUD

[Cyrano]

It is not just important that airports get the right routes going but also that the right carriers are to serve them.

:ok: Buy that man a Guinness. Glad to see someone gets it. :)

[vkid]

Look at Shannon their main competitor for jet access on the west coast, it has lost €10 million in 2010

Just to correct your figures, Shannon lost 5m last year. Cork lost 10m
Profits at Dublin airport exceed DAA expectations, states report - The Irish Times - Sat, Apr 16, 2011 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0416/1224294801818.html)

[Knock63]

I only said someone LIKE CityJet.............................:rolleyes:

[Mayfly1]

Tks for the clarification I was quoting figures from clare
champion that recently stated shn lost between
7 and 10 mil last year... Anyway nobody really
knows as DAA don't publish seperate transparent
accounts for each of the seperate airports which makes
it almost impossible to see what the true situation is in regards
to individual airport performace and costs

[Cyrano]

I only said someone LIKE CityJet.............................:rolleyes:

There, there, it's OK...

All the same, my argument applies to carriers "like" CityJet too. Regional operators, unless they are out-and-out focussed on low cost, need to achieve premium yields to compensate for their higher costs. CityJet is not exceptional there. Sorry, but NOC-LON is just not a premium-yield market.

[iwak]

So no manchester route yet anybody got any idea what's going on.normally they put new routes on sale 3 to 4 months ahead of launch date so time is ticking. Come on flybe get in there!

[Jamie2k9]

Take FR Kerry - London services.

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday
Arrive from STN 09.00
Depart for STN 09.25

Everyday
Arrive from LTN 19.10
Depart for LTn 19.35

It may of being just luck it turned out like this.

[airnoc]

Hi
Flying from noc 2 alc tomorrow and give report on things go when i come back.

[Jamie2k9]

May - 59,818 up 29%
June - 62,885 up 10%

Also Flybe have changed the Thursday EDI flight to a Friday for winter.

[Kinocker]

More very impressive passenger numbers for May and June there. June is particularly interesting because it is the first month in a while where you can genuinely compare this years figures with last years and an increase of 10.8% is good going and is ahead of earlier forecasts. Again Knock is also well ahead of the three state airports in terms of percentage growth for both months.

For the first half of the year the airport has seen 49,354 more passengers pass through compared to last year, an increase of over 20%. This means that even if the airport only maintained last years numbers for the second half of the year it would still break the previous passenger number record with a bit to spare. In all liklihood it will do considerably better than that in the coming months.

The June figures show that passenger numbers are slightly up on the existing UK routes, but there is little growth here really. The new Edinburgh route does give the UK numbers an extra boost though.

The Ryanair sun routes are the ones that are doing particularly well, all the Spanish routes produced good loads in June and these will only increase in the next two months. August 2011 could well turn out to be the busiest month in the history of the airport. I had thought that 12 scheduled bucket and spade return flights per week might prove to be overkill but the numbers are proving that, during the summer months at least, this is not the case. Perhaps even more will be added next summer, Malaga or Malta anyone?!

The change to Friday for Edinburgh flights is a welcome one for me, and will better suit weekend traffic with Friday to Sunday and Friday to Tuesday options for travellers. As with most Knock-UK routes though, the flight timings could be a lot better. The route seems to be a big success though, I travel on it frequently and the loads are almost always comfortably over the 50% mark.

This week marks the end of the PSO routes, including the Knock-Dublin services. Although it will make little difference to passenger numbers at Knock (average loads were down to five or six passengers per flight), it will probably have a significant effect on the opening hours of the airport on certain days of the week.

[sawtooth]

Ireland West is having another open day Saturday 23rd July 5.30pm - 8pm to celebrate 25th anniversary, free entry and parking.

Aircraft and aerobatic displays, fire tender and air sea rescue helicopter display on the apron. Aer Lingus replica first aircraft IOLAR also visiting.
Kids events, discount shopping and entertainment in the departures retail areas.

Last years was thronged so looks like no tower visits this time.

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=271)

[Knock63]

Looks like FR won't be doing the Man flight from Noc, they're not coming to Ire at all from Man. I hear its between EI and BE, ATR and a 400 are the planes being suggested.

[iwak]

What about jet2 they might be an option .I think they should have a jet service as it gives a bit of advantage over Galway and Shannon. A lot of people don't like flying on props and would travel to Dublin to avoid a prop .


Flybes 195 would be perfect for the route ,would love to see a 195 on the apron at knock.

I see fr are doing an evening flight from noc to ace for the winter leaving noc at 19.40 on a Thursday.

[CCR]

Think an aircraft like an ATR would provide a lot more regular sustainable service than a jet on the Manchester route though.

[NorthernCounties]

I prefer sustainable aircraft use as opposed to aircrafts I'd like to see. A jet may work 4x per week, but with a prop you could have 5/6/7x per week.

[Jamie2k9]

Aer Arann would have to base a aircraft there to operate MAN. What else can they do in UK that is not already served. Would expect BE to pick it up.

[sawtooth]

Aer Arann would have to base a aircraft there to operate MAN.

RE have a frosty relationship with NOC other than PSO, only LPL was operated briefly and RE GWY-MAN still operating. Airport won't want downgrade to impact numbers on a route operated by a 735/3 since 2004, would drive more pax to FR LPL.

Wouldn't have much faith in EIR on the route either, brand more attractive but loads from SNN haven't been great and high fares aimed more at business frequency than leisure/VFR. EI could operate LGW-NOC-MAN-NOC-LGW, but 320 probably too large.

Still think FR may have plans, extra aircraft due at MAN next year and Gov route incentive to please.

Fingers crossed for BE who have the UK brand and flexibility to upgrade the aircraft down the line should numbers grow.

[airhumberside]

Aer Arann would have to base a aircraft there to operate MAN.
Not at all. Could do a w pattern

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Not at all. Could do a w pattern

No.

Galway aircraft - GWY - MAN - KIR - MAN - GWY.
Waterford aircraft couldn't do a W pattern.

[airhumberside]

Based on current routings/frequencies yes, but routes can get dropped, frequencies reduced etc to accomodate MAN-Knock if Aer Arann so wished

[Knock63]

quote : I see fr are doing an evening flight from noc to ace for the winter leaving noc at 19.40 on a Thursday.

I can see that flight time being changed. With operational hours being hit by the loss of RE I cannot forsee the management at Noc bringing in a crew to de-ice an aircraft, runways, footpaths and the ramp itself just for one late flight.

[iwak]

But sure the staff won't be starting early any more as there won't be any early flights earliest check in will be ltn starting at 9.30 .with aer arann the airport opened at 5.15am for the 7.15 departure so an extra 40 mins in the evening won't make difference . They will still be saving on man-hours and unsocial pay supplement which would apply when working before 7am.

[Jamie2k9]

Ryanair had it at the early morning departure from NOC and they changed it to the evening a few weeks back. So don't see it being changed again. Do the airprot plan to get a carrier for BRS?

[sawtooth]

MAN may BE bookable already...

[NorthernCounties]

Well spotted... 4x weekly from November! :ok:

[Kinocker]

Good to see the route being continued and happy that it is flybe that are taking it up but...4 weekly on a Q400 is a fair old capacity drop, I hope that will just be an initial offering and the route will either be upgraded to an e-jet or increased to daily by next summer. With LBA going there will be plenty of demand for this route.

Still good news though - the press release says onward connections to Amsterdam will be bookable and it would be a far more geographically sensible route to Paris than via EDI. I understand that the SNN-CDG route is going so the NOC route may gain some passengers from this also. Hopefully it might lead to a direct route to AMS or CDG at some stage in the future with onward connections bookable.

[sawtooth]

fair old capacity drop, I hope that will just be an initial offering and the route will either be upgraded to an e-jet or increased to daily by next summer.

It's appx 766 less than June 2011, 281 less than Nov 2010 with same frequency as WW, so I'd expect an increase in coming months unless there is a falloff.

Hope the change to prop doesn't affect the route, it's the right aircraft for the numbers but also has lower thresholds in some winter weather conditions than the jets. Flew on a very noisy D8 a few years back but have yet to try the more modern Q400.

As for connections I wont get excited, past MAN/LGW/EDI announcements all talked up connections, but none were in anyway practical. MAN connections not yet loaded on the site.

Wonder if BE are looking at BRS.

[Kinocker]

Hopefully the same thing will happen as happened with Edinburgh and the frequency will be increased before the route even commences. NOC-MAN was getting close to 50,000 pax per year even when NOC-LBA was competing with it. 4x weekly on a 78 seater wouldn't even go close to that at 100% occupancy, there is definitely more potential there.

Bristol would certaunly suit a 3xweekly Q400 service, similar to Edinburgh there is a market but not enough to support a 738. Flybe might be put off by having to operate a W route though as they do not have a base at Bristol. However, numbers on the Ryanair service have been improving through this year so they may choose to bring it back next summer.

[Roll to the end]

This is good news, hopefully flybe get established at the airport and who knows open some new routes in the future and increase frequencies. Certainly a capacity drop but i wonder what the load would be like during the winter months on the baby.

[iwak]

Great that man is sorted i personally think the 4 weekly will be under capacity with the dash maybe the 195 will be used for summer 12.

Flybe are the perfect airline to do a 3 wkly brs with dash.

Next thing should be to get a late evening fri and sun flight to stn.

Hopefully the reduction in capacity to man won't affect pax numbers too much.

I think ei should base the a319 on noc /lgw route would be perfect aircraft for the route .how is it performing?

[Jamie2k9]

Was in EDI last weekend and Aer Arann flights to/from EDI were full on Friday and Sunday. Both arrivals and departures. Don't think Flybe are affecting them very much as people thought they would. Suggests there is enough demand for both carriers. Anybody know what load factor on BE flights is?

Good news about MAN being filled.:ok:

Knock63 are the airport aware that Ryanair are dropping BRS and LBA as it wasn't made public like bmibaby MAN closure and its lightly NOC wont get there winter schedule for another while. Are they in talks with anybody about filling the gap for BRS.

[JobsaGoodun]

Everyone seems so hell bent on capacity. Flybe have 14 E195's that are pretty much fully utilised on much higher capacity trunk routes that MANNOC.

Flybe are not about capacity. They're much more about frequency and you're far more likely to get a twice daily Q400 than an upgrade from a single Q400 to single E195.

Remember, 45% of Flybe's passengers are flying on business. If the route proves popular then they'll most likely be looking to increase yield by running two a day at higher day return prices that putting on more capacity with a larger aircraft.

[Knock63]

Hi Jamie, I'm sure the Airport are well aware that the flights have been pulled. Don't think anyone will fill the gaps, it'll probably be a case of knuckling down, hold on tight and see what comes up in the spring time.

[airnoc]

HI Travel from Ire West to ALC 18/07/11.
Check in straight through as had only hand luggage no hold up.
Breakfast for 4 €22.00 very cheap http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Flight in a bit late left 20 minutes late plane full arr ALC 30 minutes early
Coming back arr in Ire West 30 minutes late due to a/c delay and strong headwind and plane also full.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif
Car park for week €44.00 cheap http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif
Overall very happy with Ire west airport staff helpfull and friendly which is nice and should not be lost. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[sawtooth]

WRC7737 from Kiev on the board tomorrow, childrens charter?

[Jamie2k9]

Bringing the football team over to play Sligo.

[NorthernCounties]

It'll stand out on the apron...

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/5/2/3/1954325.jpg

Currently over Poland.

[FR-]

I think all planes should be painted like this for a foggy NOC

[sawtooth]

If Dynorod ever need an aircraft...

Confirmation regarding BRS route end from NOC, looks like they'll miss some of the busiest weeks around Cheltenham and SW music festivals next spring.

@irelandwest: Ryanair are cancelling the Bristol flight from Oct 29. We are working to source a new carrier to operate route for summer'12.

[Kinocker]

Good to see some decent connections and prices to Paris now available via MAN. 150 Euros return to CDG and a total journey time of 4.5 hours should make it a shorter and cheaper overall journey from the west than going via Dublin. Hopefully it gets some marketing because without a direct route most people are otherwise unlikely to know that the option exists.

[iwak]

Hi knocker great to have the new connections but do be have onward connections with air France at Paris or with klm at ams.

How have the loads been to edi lately?

[Kinocker]

Hi knocker great to have the new connections but do be have onward connections with air France at Paris or with klm at ams.


Not from Knock, no - it's just NOC - MAN - CDG at this stage. Still a lot better than the previous Edinburgh option though.

How have the loads been to edi lately?

Consistently in the 40s whenever I've been on it, so between 50% and 60%. I think BE have the frequencies right with 3 weekly year round and 5 weekly in the summer. Don't think the route would support much more than that but it certainly seems to have been a success for them.

[Knock63]

Just came across this ???


11 Leeds Bradford winter routes

Alicante
Knock
Barcelona
Krakow
Dusseldorf
Lanzarote
Dublin
Malaga
Fuerteventura
Venice
Gdansk










Leeds Bradford Airport’s John Parkin said,

“We are delighted to unveil an exciting new Ryanair winter schedule from Leeds Bradford with a great mix of low fares routes to winter sun and city break destinations as well as connections to the East and West of Ireland. Leeds Bradford Airport’s successful partnership with Ryanair delivers vital tourism and business connections to the region and we look forward to another successful winter schedule.”

Does anyone know if this has changed or is it ON for this winter at Noc ?

[Jamie2k9]

That was released before Knock was pulled. On the route map on NOC webstie it says that LBA is ending.

[Knock63]

Ok, thanx for the info Jamie.

[iwak]

Lba is definitely gone it was overkill to the northwest with lpl and man. Brs is more of a loss it has been performing nicely this summer when operating we'd/fri/sun. Last winter it was tues/thurs/sat which is no good for the noc Market as itis mainly vfr and travelling for weekends over the winter months.

Do flybe operate any Bristol routes? I remember them closing a base there a few years ago. A q 400 would be the ideal aircraft for this route.

[MerchantVenturer]

iwak

At the moment Flybe operate from Bristol to Belfast City, Jersey and the Isle of Man but it's not a base for the airline.

[Kinocker]

Local radio reporting that 'over 72,000' passengers used the airport last month, up from 70,000 last year. I would guess that with all the extra sun routes, UK routes must be fairly static if the overall increase is only 2,000.

[Fly_bill]

UK routes up 6% in July so looks fairly positive all round

[Kinocker]

Spanish routes from Knock for July:

Alicante 4363 (LF 82.4%)
Reus 3973 (LF 80.8%)
Lanzarote 3165 (LF 95.5%)
Tenerife 1370 (LF 90.6%)
Gran Can 1277 (LF 84.4%)
Pamplona 167

[Mayfly1]

Wow, where do you get these stats from so quick?

[Kinocker]

Aena provide them on their website. They get them up very quickly unlike the CSO who have about a two month delay in publication.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

I see Knock airport will be open until at least 23.00 tonight. Suprised they haven't diverted the flight into SNN insted. Hoiw will they manage to pay staff!!!

[Knock63]

Minimal staff and mostly part-timers I'd say, gotta keep the costs down ya know :rolleyes:

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Flybe here to stay. MAN & EDI on sale for summer 2012.

[Kinocker]

Excellent. I would still be hopeful that the Manchester flight will be switched to daily before too long, at worst for next years summer season if not this side of Christmas.

I had another flight on the EDI route yesterday (flybe at Knock are doing well out of me!). Seems to be a very consistent passenger flow on the route, always showing solid loads of 50-60% while never really going much above that. This would appear to be more than enough to keep flybe happy with the progress of the route.

EDIT: Had a look at flybe's timetable there with Christmas flights in mind - the Edinburgh flight will be going on hiatus for six weeks from January 6th and is scheduled to return from February 17th onwards into next summer. It's a quiet time of year so no big worries there provided that it does indeed come back.

The MAN flight will operate right through the winter but the Sunday flight is not scheduled to operate for four Sundays between the 8th of January and the 12th of February (but the route will continue to operate Mon/Wed/Fri during this period). Seems a little bit pointless cutting just four individual flights and I wouldn't have thought the Sunday one would be the appropriate one to drop since Wednesday is generally a quieter day in terms of traffic at NOC.

[Kinocker]

73,237 passengers used Knock in July, up 4.5% on last year.

For the period Jan-Jul 2011 more than 52,000 additional passengers have used the airport compared to the same period last year. Each of the seven months has seen a passenger increase compared to the same month last year.

[sawtooth]

Had a look at CAA stats for July, MAN had a big fall, not clear if that could be attributed to WW closing the route/promotion, but LPL seems to have picked up the slack.

STN +2%
EMA +6%
LBA +7%
LTN +9%
BRS +23%
LPL +35%
LGW -2%
BHX -11%
MAN -30%
EDI - new

[Jamie2k9]

73,237 passengers used Knock in July, up 4.5% on last year.

For the period Jan-Jul 2011 more than 52,000 additional passengers have used the airport compared to the same period last year. Each of the seven months has seen a passenger increase compared to the same month last year.


Think we will see slower growth for the next while and possible slight decline over the winter.

[Kinocker]

Looks like a small reduction in total seats available this winter compared to last then although a better winter weather wise, particularly pre-christmas, would perhaps offset the drop in numbers. November may be the only month this year to show a passenger drop.

Nov/Dec 2011 schedule compared to 2010

Stansted - no change (daily flight)
Luton - no change (daily flight)
Gatwick - up 3pw (from 4pw to daily)
Liverpool - up 1pw (from 6pw to daily)
Birmingham - no change (4pw)
Manchester - change from 733 to dash-8, no change to frequency (4pw)
East Midlands - down 1pw (from 4pw to 3pw)
Edinburgh - up 3pw (from 0 to 3pw)
Leeds - down 3pw (from 3pw to 0)
Bristol - down 3pw (from 3pw to 0)
Tenerife - up 1pw (from 0 to 1pw)
Lanzarote - up 1pw (from 0 to 1pw)

Also the little used Dublin service is of course no longer in operation. 97 people used it for the whole of December last year (it was almost always cancelled).


Busy looking day tomorrow though with 27 movements on the boards. Probably the busiest of the year.

[airnoc]

Busy day though with 28 movements and no sun route. Was this busiest of the year or busiest than 28/08/2009 with 4,500 pax? How is aug overall with pax number. thanks in advance

[Kinocker]

Impressive...


06/09/2011 - Knock's busiest year ever!


This August 84,000 passengers used Ireland West Airport Knock showing a 5.9% increase from August 2010, and recording the busiest month in the airport’s history, surpassing the previous high of 2006. It has also been the busiest year in the airport’s history with a total of 451,186 passengers using the airport between January and August inclusive, a 14% increase on 2010 levels.

August traffic from the UK was up 5% on 2010 levels, while overall passenger numbers for year to date January to August increased by 10%. The latest figures also show that Ireland West Airport is fast becoming a departure point for sun and continental holiday makers. Over 94,000 passengers made mainland European and sun holiday trips between January and August this year, a 41% increase on 2010.

Commenting on the results, Joe Gilmore, Airport Managing Director, said: “New routes this year to Lanzarote, Las Palmas and Tenerife added to the other sun destinations in Spain and Portugal have proved a success with families in particular finding the ease of access into and through the airport very convenient.”



August 2011: 84,052 pax
Jan - Aug 11: 451,186 pax
% change v 2010: +14%





Hopefully with these numbers and all those extra E10 departure fees in the bank they can look to extending their opening hours to accommodate better timings and double daily services on busy routes at peak times.

[sawtooth]

Great news on growth and success of new European routes, UK numbers may be slightly skewed by the previous years ash disturbance for some months. Hopefully increased frequency on London routes offsets the other decreases over the winter season.

Article on 2010 financials in today's Irish Times:

Accounts just filed at the Companies Office show the company behind the airport – Connaught Airport Development Ltd – recorded a pretax profit of €293,960. That was down 48 per cent on 2009, with directors attributing much of the reduction on the impact of the ash cloud which impacted on Irish airspace. Without the Department of Transport grant of €760,948 the operation would have recorded a pretax loss of €466,988 despite a fractional increase in revenues last year to €10.3 million from €10.1 million a year earlier... On the company’s revenues for 2010, the directors say that although both aviation and commercial income incurred a significant decrease, an increase in fuel sales helped offset the shortfall.

Irish Timesl (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0907/1224303638573.html)

I'd imagine the significant cost cutting highlighted earlier this year coupled with increased fuel and pax revenues will improve the 2011 figures. But loss of PSO revenue and reduced OPEX have to be factored in, not leaving much scope for planned capital developments.

[Knock63]

Quote:

"Hopefully with these numbers and all those extra E10 departure fees in the bank they can look to extending their opening hours to accommodate better timings and double daily services on busy routes at peak times."


Extend their opening hours :rolleyes: Don't make me laugh!!! The rumour I'm hearing for the winter schedule is that the 'management' are trying to convince FR to move their one and only early flight, STN on a Mon @ 08.05 to 13.05 in the afternoon. That REALLY helps the workforce :ugh: let alone the Business people looking for early flights to the Metropolis. They're supposedly offering FR a free flight, ie no landing fees etc.... in exchange for the slot change. The next earliest flight is at 10.40 on a Weds and latest departure time is 16.15. International Airport, you're having a laugh.

[NorthernCounties]

Although it is laughable, at least the airport is trying to economise and safe costs. I doubt though that it well help passenger numbers on that route.

[sawtooth]

That's really worrying. I didn't believe earlier rumors that NOC were behind the current FR schedules. But either financial situation is poor enough to warrant limiting growth through awful schedules, or after a few good years NOC management are heading back to the bad old days.

I try to use NOC for all my travel, but for the last year I've had to use DUB more and more rather than lose 3 days downtime for a few hours business meeting due to in-frequency or late flight times. As I've said many times on this thread you can't even do a weekend trip to most of the current destinations and London ends up requiring a long weekend and back early on Sunday, the Monday morning offered some respite.

This is exactly the time NOC should be bending over backwards to facilitate a double daily or at least early morning schedule. GWYs well timed LTN services are gone, GWY/SXL/NOC PSO is gone, GWY airport may soon be gone, the opportunity is there to establish itself as viable option for anyone connecting or doing work in London. :ugh:

[Jamie2k9]

Knock 63 you were right about both ACE and STN

STN Mon flight departing at 13.45
STN Wed flight departing at 13.25
ACE Thur flight departing at 11.55

[Kinocker]

Crazy. So the airport will only be open for six or seven hours a day from November until March at the earliest. Mornings and evenings should be the busiest times of the day for maximising footfall, but the airport will be shut. This is lunacy.

[sawtooth]

Bus Eireann advertising additional services via NOC in local papers today, shame they will find the doors locked for most of them.

[Kinocker]

Had a search through the Knock winter timetable there, snug doesn't begin to describe it. Plenty of flights alright but there won't be many airports to be found with as limited opening hours as Knock will have.

Six of the seven days the airport will have its first arrival scheduled for no earlier than 10:40 and on all seven days there are no departures scheduled for later than 16:15. If you were to assume that an airport needs to be open two hours before the first departure and can shut half an hour after the last arrival, the opening hours of Knock this winter would be as follows:

Monday - 7hrs 15mins (12 movements)
Tuesday - 7hrs 45mins (10 movements)
Wednesday - 7hrs 35mins (16 movements)
Thursday - 7hrs 45mins (10 movements)
Friday - 7hrs 30mins (16 movements)
Saturday - 9hrs 5mins (9 movements)
Sunday - 7hrs 15mins (17 movements)

There is one early(ish) flight on a Saturday arriving from and departing to Liverpool but I wouldn't be surprised if the timings were changed for that one too. Saturday is the quietest day but has the longest operating hours. Are the airport management's backs really this far pressed up against the wall in financial terms or are they just being tight?

[ryan2000]

Opening for a few hours is shortsighted and will make it harder to attract new business. Airlines will think twice about investing in an airport that doesn't allow them flexibility with their schedules. I still think there's room for a sevice to a hub airport from Knock.

[Knock63]

Their backs can't be that hard up against the wall, especially as 'the wall' has just been freshly painted. The Airport has just been whitewashed, by outside contractors, and to make things worse I heard they even used their OWN in-house painter to just sit and keep an eye on them, for security purposes!!!! If money was that tight wouldn't they have used their own painter with a couple of young lads to do the job, even if it took them all summer to do it ?????

All the workers will be struggling to get hours this winter judging by the flight times, and struggle with their mortgages and other bills but I bet the management are all salaried.

[iwak]

At the end of the day any business needs to be run prudently.staff have got to be productive and big gaps during the day result in staff not being productive .

I totally agree that London should be double daily however summer might be the best time to introduce this.

With lba and brs gone from October the winter months will drag down passenger numbers. They will have to attract mainland Europe routes e.g Germany/France as mentioned by management previously to bulk up passenger numbers for 2012.

Manchester will also take a dip in passenger numbers with the loss of ww.

However going forward the airport seem to have a good relationship with fr and now flybe of which one may introduce brs again for summer 2012 .

[Roll to the end]

Well I was shocked to hear what's been going on in iwak. But I understand that these measures need to be taken to secure the survival of the airport.

BUT to prospective "new" airlines that maybe looking at whole setup it isn't that attractive. I do agree that the management are ill sighted, a double daily to london is needed to build a strong network..

From what I can gather from the previous posts is that the management/ops have very little if any experience in aviation and perhaps its time to really structure the whole company into a competitive force. It may be time to get rid of long standing locals and replace with people with experience that can deliver strong strategic growth.

A sitting duck will not achieve anything in the long run.

[sawtooth]

Well I was shocked to hear what's been going on in iwak. But I understand that these measures need to be taken to secure the survival of the airport.

I think the reason many are surprised is that the management seemed to have the right strategy for most of the last decade. Through the early 90s it was 'managed' by local counsellors and vested interests with no clear vision. Lets not forget you would have been laughed at if you suggested NOC would have 25 destinations and year round scheduled sun routes.

But after 2000 a new chairman was appointed and a seemingly strong management team assembled with key skills in business organisation, marketing and operations who:
- Reorganised business divisions and modernised operations
- Developed a sustainable low-cost base
- Developed a 20 year strategy and vision
- Conducted market research and data gathering to support the strategy
- Differentiated and raised profile through well executed, consistent visual branding
- Invested a lot in marketing campaigns including UK press and TV at the peak
- Developed a business case for investment and capital development
- Commissioned an independent 20 year development master-plan
- Delivered several key infrastructure projects to cater for expansion

Much of that seems like common sense but not easily delivered successfully or funded. I think they were well ahead of many other small airports in this regard as we see from the panic when state supports were cut elsewhere.

Yes survival is probably the new strategy in light of funding cuts, PSO cut, declining passenger spend, increased energy costs etc. The economic fundamentals are now very different from the years of double digit GDP. 2010 ash and winter weather problems must have been a shock driving extra caution. NOC have done well to maintain and add services, I just hope they aren't too aggressive in scaling back their strategy.

[RE-tard]

I think they were well ahead of many other small airports in this regard as we see from the panic when state supports were cut elsewhere.


lol, i can guarantee you that you would seem the same panic if Knock had its funding cut...

[Fresh_air1]

Excellent post Sawtooth, fully agree that the approach in recent years has been agreesive but given financial state of economy and airports reported debt situation and aviation sector in Ireland in general Knock airport cant afford to maintain 12-14 hour opending days for what is essentially a threadbare schedule. Double dailys to London would be great but no airline will introduce these in whats essentially a leisure market during the winter season when they already have 3 daily london flights - Id imagine management will be pushing hard for these for summer 2012. As Galway have found out to their cost maintaining 14 hour opening days for half full flights is no longer sustainable given diminishing Govt funding which appears will diminsh even further next year. Roll to the end, the management team at the airport are all relativley new, all the longstanding members are now gone so your post isnt valid whilst Knock63 you seem to have a vested interest in that you would rather see airport open at 6am to midnight to keep 12 hour days for staff when in reality 6 of these hours they will be twiddling their thumbs! what type of business can sustain this type of operation I wonder without haemoraguing cash? I would be of the opinion that managements strategy is spot on and hopefully they are preparing for growth and longer hours for summer '12 when airlines are more open to expand.

[Mayfly1]

Freshair, good to see some balance brought to this discussion. There has to be a sence of economic reality brought to the fore here and your post higlights
some of it. The aiport will deliver a 10 % Pax increase this year which will be a record, have added 4 new services, and also welcomed Europe's largest regional airline Flybe as a flag ship carrier!
The reduced operational hours for winter is a reality, the majority of traffic is Vfr and leisure and will work within these hours.
Yes business schedule/ traffic and opening hours are not user friendly and I'm sure mangement are working on this but as you have pointed out key hub business connectivity is the ideal target here in the medium term however the unprecedented economic climate makes this a very challenging target to achieve.

I say well done to IWAK they have their strategy correct to ensure longer term survival and I'm sure also we may be surprised what 2012 will bring in more new services

[Knock63]

I see the Minister for Transport is accompanying Mr. O'Leary and a few other big-wigs to Knock on Monday, let's hope it's good news they bring and that they're not ALL there for the 4 millionth Passenger celebration!!!

[sawtooth]

Great day for the TV cameras, gusts up to 130km forecast for Monday afternoon in the North West as Katia drops by.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

The aiport will deliver a 10 % Pax increase this year which will be a record, have added 4 new services, and also welcomed Europe's largest regional airline Flybe as a flag ship carrier!


Lost 2 and possible another one for next summer.

[Fly_bill]

Any insight into the third service potentially being lost next summer EI?

[Jamie2k9]

Think EI-EIDW may mean Reus if FR don't operate it on a W pattorn.

[Mayfly1]

Knock63 where did you see that? I can't find it anywhere? Are the public invited to attend at the airport on Monday to meet them ? I didn't see any media or press notice on it

[Knock63]

I know one of the summer staff that works at IWAK.

[iwak]

I like the sound of this I would say it's definitely positive news anyway. If Michael o leery is coming I'd say it's some sort of announcement which is being supported by the new govt incentive scheme for tourism.

I'd say inbound tourism routes and maybe double daily London if were lucky.
Fingers crossed!!

[airnoc]

Hi Found this on Dublin dep page
IRL West Knock Ryanair FR101P 12 Sep 10:30
Found this on arr page
IRL West Knock Ryanair FR1002P 12 sept 13:30

Sounds like a base announment or more Europe flight to France/Germany or bucket and spade to replace ALC/Reus which are supposing to be going and summer flight to bristol 2012
IRL West Knock Ryanair FR1002P 12 Sep 13:30

IRL West Knock Ryanair FR1002P 12 Sep 13:30

[Jamie2k9]

Why would FR announce a new base in NOC when the airport would not be able to stay open all day. FR are not going to pay more to cover operational hours. As Knock 63 said they are giving FR a free slot if they move STN to lunchtime on Mondays which they did. Why would FR do this and days lather announce a base. :confused:

MOL always travels to airport when they reach a major passenger number.

ALC is lightly to return next summer.

Would be great if it was a base!! but can the airport open from about 4.30am until 22.00 or 23.00 everyday.

Remenber FR have no base in France so rule that out un less its a base here.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

LPA, ACE and TFS on sale for summer 2012. Still once weekly. Don't see a FR base when they put these on sale last week.

[Kinocker]

MOL and Varadkar's arrival listed on the local news this morning - states that it is in relation to the 4 millionth passenger at the airport (4 millionth Ryanair passenger or 4 million overall?).

Does Varadkar generally attend this sort of stuff? If so, that's probably all it is. Hopefully he will at least have something interesting to say about future development of the airport even if there is nothing to be announced today. Maybe make some positive noises about developments for next summer.

Perhaps Knock63 could post if you hear anything interesting from up there...


2nd EDIT: Event went ahead despite the weather - doesn't sound like there was anything of note to report though. Govt yet to decide on Aer Lingus - Varadkar - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0912/aerlingus.html)

[Jamie2k9]

Ryanair Welcomes Its 4 Millionth Knock Passenger (http://www.ryanair.com/ie/news/ryanair-welcomes-its-4-millionth-knock-passenger)

Also EI LGW - NOC diverted to DUB - tech fault.

[sawtooth]

Some details from interviews at IWAK today. Michael O'Leary in buoyant mood, said Ryanair carrying over 400,000 each year through the "most profitable, best run regional in Ireland"...

- Summer routes have gone "phenomenally well"
- In discussion with IWAK on 3 more routes next year, 2 European, 1 UK
- Airport needs help from Tourism agencies to deliver new routes
- Need to target marketing support where airlines are delivering capacity
- "NOC / KIR thriving through the downturn...government airports a disaster"

Leo Varadkar seemed to be on the same script...
- There to celebrate IWAK and Ryanair's success in bring in tourists to West
- NOC and SNN can survive but "NOC breaks even...SNN losing a lot of money"
- Lot more problems with SNN which is run by a state company..."lessons to be learned"
- No reversing cutbacks, "support to regional airports will be reduced in coming years"

[Kinocker]

Well that is kind of promising for next year, the sun routes have certainly been the big plus at NOC in 2011, great loads all through the summer. Good to see that Gran Canaria will be brought back next summer as well, it seems to have done well after a rather slow start.

Any predictions as to the possible new routes? I would guess two out of Malaga, Malta and Girona (maybe instead of Reus) as the European routes, although it would be great to see Frankfurt Hahn get a try out to bring some inbound pax - it has done well from KIR the last few years.

I dread to think where the UK route might be, all I would really want to see from Ryanair is more structure to their London airport schedules and BRS brought back seasonally April - October. I'm not sure where else they could go within the UK without damaging either their own existing routes or flybe's operations from Knock. I'd probably guess MAN though.

[dublinaviator]

Lufthansa to start daily flights from Dusseldorf to Knock next May:

Lufthansa announces Knock-Dusseldorf daily service | BreakingNews.ie (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/lufthansa-announces-knock-dusseldorf-daily-service-520531.html)

Fair play to IWAK management...

[Kinocker]

Incredible coup for the airport and could hopefully be the start of some decent inward European tourism routes to Knock. A daily service too - well done to all involved!

There are some cracking international Lufthansa connections available from Dusseldorf as well if the timings are anyways decent...

[dublinaviator]

breakingnews.ie obviously got ahead of themselves. Turns out its just a weekly service every Saturday running between May and September:

Lufthansa to start Knock Airport service - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0914/knock-business.html)

Still though, its a great achievement for the airport.

[Kinocker]

Big difference - Examiner and Breaking news say its daily but RTE says weekly. Given that they are projecting 2,000 incoming tourists as passengers it will most likely be the latter. Still though, its a start, although it is small scale in comparison to what KIR already have operating to/from Hahn...

Good to see Lufthansa coming to the airport nonetheless, hopefully they like what the see.

[sawtooth]

78 seat CRJ-900 showing on LH site with 2hr flight time. Only a couple of dates bookable so not fully loaded yet.

[Jamie2k9]

Most admit didn't see that coming but I fear that Ryanair will fly Weeze just to make a point. They have done it at many other airprots and have won the battle.

According to NOC website its once weekly.

[sawtooth]

Don't see this as a threat to FR, it's primarily going to be an inbound tourism route with this schedule and connections, like the Swiss Zurich route that ran for several years. Great route though and potential to grow. And FR have been on the inbound tourism bandwagon lately playing cat and mouse with Varadkar, so they cant then turn around and comlain when someone beats them to it.

Funny, looks like while MOL was giving interviews at NOC saying the airport should be focusing on German and French routes the Minister was upstairs doing the launch photo-op for Lufty!

[Fresh_air1]

Just heard the news, looks like a major coup getting Lufty in, canadair craft initially but I see this being much different to Zurich, no comparison with Swiss tourists compared to germans as thousands of Germans visit the west each year plus from looking at connections offers great connectivity (short layover time) to the likes of Frankfurt which opens up conenctions to Lufty network worldwide so see plenty of opportunity for outbound as well which wasnt case with zurich. Hopefully it goes well and they expand as great to see such an established brand in and im sjure if goes well we will see the 737-800 on the route in the future

[Kinocker]

Hopefully Ryanair don't do anything like that. Although if IWAK have been looking for airlines to set up German routes - and it appears from this announcement that they have - maybe Hahn is more likely to be one of the routes they are discussing with Ryanair. A three weekly to Hahn could maybe co-exist with the Dusseldorf service without them driving each other off the routes. Opening a Weeze route would just be petty.

[Jamie2k9]

And FR have been on the inbound tourism bandwagon lately playing cat and mouse with Varadkar, so they cant then turn around and comlain when someone beats them to it.



Its Ryanair they can do what they like so if they want to open Weeze they will.

Weeze done realy well while at SNN and KIR and don't see why it wont be the same at NOC if opened but hope they don't.

[iwak]

Well done to management at knock on this one ,great to have a brand like this at the airport.

I'm sure enda kenny is assisting his county airport in any way he can.

Rumour has it locally in the west that ryanair are going to launch a base at noc.We will have to wait nd see wether this comes to fruition.

I would imagine Hahn and Malaga are the European routes with Bristol being the uk route which fr are in discussions about, or maybe prestwick might be a contender. Anyway it's all about volume for knock and ryanair is the one to deliver it.

However they need to develop winter business ,I know it will never be near the same numbers as summer but day return stn and daily man for example could achieve decent loads if marketed correctly with low fares.

[CARNMANORLAD]

Congrats on gaining Lufty guys. I might have to try it out for myself. I've been trying to find out what the prices will be like but NOC doesn't seem to be on the Lufthansa webpage yet.

[sawtooth]

It's there if you search NOC - DUS, but the website database doesn't seem to have NOC added yet so it doesn't auto complete.

€377 return for a random date at end of May 2012, which includes baggage and €101 of heafty German air taxes and charges.

[Wycombe]

Lufty service sounds very similar to the Summer one that they run DUS-NQY, bringing German tourists to Cornwall (once weekly on a Sat, Jun-Sept IIRC).

This has been running a few years now and although planned to be on a CRJ did see a 735 for at least some of the season this year.

[CARNMANORLAD]

They are quite expensive, maybe i'll have a think about trying the route now!:hmm:

[Mayfly1]

Check fares again Lufthansa website being updated, returns starting at €137 for economy saver, then €188 for standard and so on...Might be worth a trip after all also possible to book one ways....

[airnoc]

Hi I was looking at clip on rte web the day ryanair 4m pax at Ire West Knock.
What was Stephen McMamara carrying with him or did anyone else this?

[Jamie2k9]

Ryanair have moved the Monday STN back to an 0810 arrival & 08.35 departure again. Did NOC ask them to move it back or did FR just do it. Very unlike FR to turn down a free slot at lunchtime.

[sawtooth]

Maybe the loss of Monday morning combined with early Sunday return flights were adversely hitting weekend bookings?

[Mayfly1]

The Monday early am outbound departure to London was an important part of the service offering from the airport for weekend commuters from London to the west last winter and I would say the airport recognises this and worked with FR to keep this service in place, despite the possible commerical implications of having an inbound London service departing 6.30am on a Monday to the west and the pax implications of that

[iwak]

Lgw on sale for summer 2012 daily. Faro on sale also, same as this summer. Anyone any idea of the 3 routes which Michael oleary mentioned for summer 12 on his recent visit to the airport

[sawtooth]

Over half the Summer scheduled routes now bookable, EMA only FR UK route so far:

June 2012
LGW EI 7x M T W T F S S
BHX WW 4/5x M T W – F – S
MAN BE 4x M – W – F – S
EDI BE 3x – T – – F – S
DUS LH 1x – – – – – – S
EMA FR 4x M – W – F – S
FAO FR 3x – T – T – S –
ACE FR 1x – – –T – – –
TFS FR 1x – –W – – –
LPA FR 1x –T– – – – –

ALC FR Not loaded
REU FR Not loaded
LTN FR Not loaded
STN FR Not loaded
LPL FR Not loaded
LBA FR Still in system
BRS FR Still in system

[StephenM_SMC]

The BHX WW should be 4/5x MT-TF-S. I don't see any Wednesday flight for them in June on the online timetable.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

NOC - BRS with FR back for summer 2012 3 weekly, LTN and LPL also on sale.

[Kinocker]

Switching BRS to seasonal makes sense, loads were good during the summer but terrible last winter. Hopefully that means it wasn't one of the 'three new routes' that were said to be under consideration by Ryanair.

[iwak]

Good to see brs back for summer 12. I see flybe have released their summer timetable and man is still 4 weekly . I would imagine knock will benefit from galways closure over the winter months particularly man and edi.

Looking forward to seeing what routes fr will announce over the coming weeks.I would say Malaga,Hahn and maybe Milan or Rome as the 3 European and an extra stn as the uk route.


P.s best of luck to all staff at Galway airport and the aer arann staff.

[Kinocker]

63,852 passengers used Knock in September, an increase of just under 6% from last year. I would say that is probably the busiest September ever at the airport, certainly busier than any of the previous three at least.

Knock will probably pick up some additional traffic from Galway over the winter months, however if the post on the Aer Arann thread about winter bookings is correct there won't be much impact at Knock from that decision.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

NOC - DUS start date has being moved form 5 May to 12 May.

[iwak]

1056 passengers on the edi route for the month of sept. I make this out to be roughly 50% load factor. I would imagine this to improve with the introduction of a Friday flight instead of a thurs making it better for weekend breaks and also the termination of aer aranns Galway edi route for winter.

I think this is pretty good for a tues,thurs and Sunday schedule.

[sawtooth]

STN now loaded for 2012, mostly early morning flights, very early from STN side. With the closing of RE Carnmore base there's no London connection later than LGW 15.00 outside SNN or DUB most days.

STN-NOC (M-S) 06:25 06:25 06:25 14:55 08:15 06:35 14:55
NOC-STN (M-S) 08:15 08:15 08:15 16:45 10:05 08:25 16:45

[Fly_bill]

EI its on sale from 5th May - where you see otherwise?

[iwak]

First flybe man flight today anybody know what numbers were like? Sad to see ww finish the man route however hopefully we will get a jet upgrade before too long from flybe.

I believe the main launch will be tomorrow when local radio will be doing an outside broadcast from the airport.

Any news on new fr routes?

[Kinocker]

Hopefully the first step from flybe will be to make the service daily for the summer season. I don't think there is a possibility of them putting a jet on the route any time soon. Four weekly on the Dash 8 seems to be enough for the winter months, but if they are going to take on Ryanair at Liverpool they will need more than that from March to October. Liverpool is daily all year round now and seems to be going from strength to strength and the weak competition to Knock from the north of England this winter will only re-enforce this.

It doesn't look like there will be much charter action at Knock next year, it has been mentioned that Europe Airpost to Faro might not be back and according to another thread on this site Dubrovnik Airlines has gone bust. That would just leave Lanzarote as the only sun charter unless something new is announced. I think there might be potential for sun destinations that the scheduled operators don't go to, like Cyprus, Greece or the Balearics. It would be a pity to see Ryanair gain a monopoly on sun routes from Knock.

The timetable looks a bit bare now for the winter compared to what we've been used to in the last six months, just six departures tomorrow and five on Tuesday, with nothing going any further than London either day.

Leeds/Bradford is still showing on the Ryanair website with crossed out planes for next summer, similar to Alicante and Reus. Maybe they are thinking of bringing it back seasonally like they did with Bristol, the loads might just about be good enough in the summer months to justify retaining it together with having the benifit of putting some additional pressure on flybe at Manchester.

Flybe's Edinburgh flights have gotten very expensive all of a sudden, it looks like they might be planning on taking full advantage of the closure of the Galway route by hiking up their prices as much as they can get away with. Flybe's prices on routes where they have no competition tend to be on the high side.

[Jamie2k9]

It doesn't look like there will be much charter action at Knock next year, it has been mentioned that Europe Airpost to Faro might not be back and according to another thread on this site Dubrovnik Airlines has gone bust. That would just leave Lanzarote as the only sun charter unless something new is announced. I think there might be potential for sun destinations that the scheduled operators don't go to, like Cyprus, Greece or the Balearics. It would be a pity to see Ryanair gain a monopoly on sun routes from Knock.


Thomas Cook have 2012 on sale and no KOC - FAO flights on sale and not in the brochure.

As DUB has no scheduled operators flying to Cyprus and Greece I think it will be a while before NOC gets them.

Leeds/Bradford is still showing on the Ryanair website with crossed out planes for next summer, similar to Alicante and Reus. Maybe they are thinking of bringing it back seasonally like they did with Bristol, the loads might just about be good enough in the summer months to justify retaining it together with having the benifit of putting some additional pressure on flybe at Manchester.


Each season is loaded the same as the previous season. So summer 2011 is loaded as summer 2012. They the changes are made.

I would nearly gaurntee that ALC will be back and FR are just holding out to get there own way. If some ALC routes don't return I would say that the UK and Ireland won't be affected regaurdless of air bridge usage.

As for Reus would say its the weeker of the sun routes from NOC and can't say if it will be back.

On another note with EI base in LGW almost certain to close where does it leave NOC.

AGP being dropped in JAN. Fares gone form £30.00 to over £250.00 just like EI did when they reduced the base before. Don't see them basing aircraft to operate NOC, DUB and ORK.

Currently DUB aircraft are operating LGW - ORK this winter will they do this with ORK and NOC next summer. What are laods like on NOC - LGW? and how profitable is the route?

If the base closoure happons its because the base in not profitable or EI may be getting rid of the one or two of the A320 as the 4 A319 will be joining the fleet instead.

[Kinocker]

As DUB has no scheduled operators flying to Cyprus and Greece I think it will be a while before NOC gets them.


That's a fair point, I was thinking of the Scottish airports where charters to Greece are common, didn't realise that wasn't the case at Dublin. I just think the charters need to offer a bit of variety in terms of destinations, taking on Ryanair head to head at a small airport like Knock is not the way to go.

On another note with EI base in LGW almost certain to close where does it leave NOC.


Hopefully EI will keep the route as a W route from another base. I figure if they were cutting it they might have hiked the prices similar to what they have done with Malaga. The loads have been steady and the decision to keep it daily this winter had suggested that EI were happy with it. It would be a disaster to lose it unless EI fancied giving Knock some Heathrow slots instead (no chance) or Ryanair saw the opportunity to go double daily to Stansted or Luton (small chance).


Hopefully the hints about new Ryanair routes come to something in the next few weeks as it looks like there will be a few losses next year - Leeds, Dubrovnik, less capacity to Manchester and Faro, and possibly Reus and/or Gatwick too.

[sawtooth]

Good launch:

Ireland West Airport (@Irelandwest)
10/31/11 1:34 PM
Sir Alex ferguson launches new Flybe service from ireland West Airport Knock to Manchester pic.twitter.com/bXCS30Bc

http://twitter.com/Irelandwest/status/131001162831892480/photo/1

[Kinocker]

Very good. Press release says there will be additional frequency in the summer months but doesn't go into any more detail than that.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

NOC have updated there timetable says that ALC starts 30 March, LPA 27 March, BRS starts 25 March.

LBA completly gone and Reus still there showing the current summer timetable but it does not say it will restart in March.

They also updated summer 2012 charters.
FAO dropped
ACE operating
Dubrovnik TBC (the day it operates) but sure nothing set in stone about that one)

[PPRuNeUser0176]

NOC-LGW being kept by EI next summer. New times

Depart LGW-10.50 - Arrive NOC 12.20
Depar NOC-12.55 - Arrive LGW 14.25

[iwak]

Good to see aer lingus remain at knock for summer 12 .obviously they are happy with the routes performance. By keeping the base they enable an early arrival in dub from lgw giving advantage over fr.

They say most leisure passengers prefer to travel out in the morning however returning at lunchtime from noc on a Sunday might be a bit early for weekenders

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Knock - Reus now not showing as operating for summer 2012. All the crossed out planes gone.

[Jamie2k9]

It seems to be NOC with one or two others that are gone with the rest remaining.

Looks like anything over two hours from Reus to a non base has being dropped.

[Kinocker]

It seems to be NOC with one or two others that are gone with the rest remaining.

Looks like anything over two hours from Reus to a non base has being dropped.

The new sun routes did take a chunk out of the numbers flying NOC-REU in the key mid summer months this year, the route was 500 pax down in July and 400 down in August. Nonetheless the loads were still decent and I'd expect that (if it is gone) an alternative sun route will be installed in its place in the coming weeks as the issue seems to be moreso at the Reus end than at Knock.

--------------------

Its mostly old news at this stage but I stumbled across this article in the Western People from a couple of months ago when Varadkar and O'Leary were at Knock. A few interesting references other than what has been discussed already - O'Leary apparently claiming he will add another 12 routes from Knock in the next five years, Varadkar promising to continue to fund airport improvements and Joe Gilmore saying that the search for a carrier to operate US flights continues. It was probably one of those events where a lot of loose talk was flying about that might ultimately amount to little of substance but I thought it was worth posting even now a few months on.




Ryanair will double flights into Knock


RYANAIR plans to add three new routes to Ireland West Airport Knock by next summer and to double its number of services in the next five years.

As the low fares airline welcomed its four millionth passenger to the airport yesterday (Monday), CEO Michael O’Leary said he is committed to increasing the number of destinations to and from Knock. Since Ryanair’s first flight from Knock to Luton in 1987, the company now operates 12 routes from the airport and aims to add another 12 in the next five years. Mr O’Leary said that by next summer the low-cost airline hopes to have an additional UK destination and two more European routes on Knock’s schedule. However, he remained tight-lipped on the exact locations.

"I don’t like my competitors knowing where we’re flying to until right before we announce it," he said.

The outspoken CEO praised the work of the independently run airport.

"Knock is thankfully not a government-run airport. It is a local airport run by local people and succeeds where airports run by dead-handed governments don’t," he added.

Mr O’Leary urged the airport to forget about restoring transatlantic flights and to concentrate instead on the German, Italian, French and Spanish markets.

Joe Gilmore, managing director of Ireland West Airport Knock, said discussions were taking place about the possibility of flights to the US.

Mr Gilmore commented that the airport continues to buck the recession with an impressive 650,000 passengers coming through Knock last year. A recent study showed that €111 million was spent locally in 2010 by people who used the airport, contributing directly to more than 800 jobs in the region.

Mr Gilmore also stressed that the airport was keen to get direct access to Germany, French and Italian tourists. Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar, who was making his first visit to the airport, said the Knock story was a "phenomenal success". Loss-making airports like Shannon could learn from the way it is run, he said.

While warning that funding for regional airports will continue to decline in the years ahead, Minister Varadkar said the government would not be "walking away from Knock" and promised several million euro will be provided to carry out essential works, including runway improvements.

WesternPeople: Ryanair will double flights into Knock (http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/ojaueycwcw/)

[Jamie2k9]

ALC back but at 2 weekly. (saturday flights dropped). FR cutting a number of routes from there so could be worse. They may add the third weekly again.

[airnoc]

Hi
See that two flight were diverted last monday due to fog at noc one from std and the other from ltn. I was watching the ltn flight doing a go around number of times before going to snn. What was wrong with the Category II | Instrument Landing System (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system#ILS_categories) at noc or was the planes did not have it?
Also reus is back on wiki but no start date yet

[iwak]

Ema showing daily for dates I put in for next may also ltn showing mon,weds,thurs,fri and sunday .

Fr tryin to push bmi baby off bhx I'd say

[Jamie2k9]

Clearly FR plan to fly empty plans. Not a chance they can sustain daily flights and I don't see it lasting.

[iwak]

Tourism Ireland are on a big marketing drive in the uk so I would imagine fr will be well supported in this expansion should it go ahead. I still can't work out what other uk route fr are in discussion about apart from a second daily stn.any thoughts? Prestwick!

[Jamie2k9]

PIK would be a nice addition to the network but thats the only other UK route they could add without affecting there own or another carriers routes.

Was recently announced the state funding to regional airports will stopped.
Minister wants to end airport subsidies - The Irish Times - Thu, Nov 10, 2011 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1110/1224307309651.html)

[anna_list]

"Ryanair will next week unveil a number of new routes from Knock Airport, with at least one expected to be to the UK and two others to continental Europe."

Ryanair's new Knock routes - Irish, Business - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanairs-new-knock-routes-2935670.html)

[EI-BUD]

I wouldn't be surprised to see FR on LGW NOC as a UK route, however, I think that EMA NOC has been mentioned on the forum yesterday but to my knowledge it hasnt been announced yet so maybe that's that UK route.

EI-BUD

[sawtooth]

Can't see them back at LGW, EI well established now. A late service to STN more likely. And EMA is running 4 weekly for a few years now.It might be BRS which is on sale after a winter break. If Taoiseach is attending launch is say it will be European routes as that has been the focus of gov, on getting German/ French visitors in as part of the proposed travel tax cut.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Could Reus now be back on the cards with the new agreement. Don't think there will be a French route.

[Jamie2k9]

My money is on Hahn and Weeze.

[iwak]

Frankfurt I'd say is defo. Weeze not so sure as dusseldorf is being done by lufthansa. Maybe bergamo ? It's the uk one that's killing me. All the same it's great news and along with the increased capacity to ema should lead to healthy pax figures.

I presume with the deal been done with reus that we will see this route return. Just alicante to sort now.

[Jamie2k9]

Rues deal means a lot less traffic because of the less money FR are being offered so can't say what they will bring back yet.

LH on DUS is enough for FR to start Weeze which done very well when it was at SNN.

[sawtooth]

Take a look at the major European capitals on FR map, you'll find that no Irish destinations outside of DUB is served other than KIR-HHN. Even ORK is left with bucket and spade routes and the continent left to EI.

There has to be an opportunity to serve several of these from a second Irish airport. SNN is in the dog house, ORK too on charges, especially european routes where charges are higher and subsidies fewer.

So low-cost base like NOC can work for FR as it's proving on Spanish routes. In many ways it's the typical secondary airport FR pick all the time on the continent. People are willing to travel for cost and convenience of a smaller airport if it offers direct routes to their destination.

I may be wrong but I hope FR are thinking this way, it would also aid their agenda regarding DAA charges also.

[Kinocker]

The phrase 'a number of new routes' suggests that it will be routes that we haven't seen before rather than the return of routes that might have been cut. They surely couldn't class Reus, Alicante or Bristol as new routes, even a double daily to Stansted couldn't be classed as that.

I couldn't see Prestwick working either to be honest, bmibabys route to Glasgow didn't last long and had low loads because the market doesn't seem to be there. Maybe very low fares would attract people from south Donegal and Fermanagh but why bother when there is already a route to Derry?

However the expansion of the East Midlands route to daily suggests that they have decided to go after their competition and mark out Knock as their territory. I'm not sure that is at all good news longer term but there is nowhere else in the UK they can fly a 738 successfully without treading on someones toes. So it looks to me like they may try Edinburgh, Gatwick or, most likely, Manchester as their new UK route. If that is the case I don't think that would be anything to celebrate to be honest, flybe are doing a perfectly good job of serving Manchester and Edinburgh already, similarly Aer Lingus at Gatwick.

Hopefully the European routes will be positive developments, while I have no problem with Ryanair increasing passenger numbers with sun routes I hope a route to Hahn or a similar central european airport is given a try. Would the local demand exist to justify a route to Poland, there is still a large Polish population in the west and only one direct route available from the west coast?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

All UK routes except Liverpool saw a drop in passengers last month. LGW figures not available. EDI new not included.

[airnoc]

New uk route Newcastle?
New Eur routes Malaga and Paris?

[Jamie2k9]

Would expect Malaga but whatever the new UK route it will affect there own or another carriers unless its PIK which I don't see happoning.

Reus taken out of booking system and route map today. Thats the only route from Reus to be removed.

[Kinocker]

Talk of it being 4 new routes as well as funding to extend the apron on another forum. No sources though and half of Europe mentioned as possible destinations.

Given that it is Enda showing up this time rather than Leo its possible that there might be some funding being provided for airport improvements alright. Certainly with the way operations in and out of Knock tend to be scheduled the existing stands are regularly at capacity at various times of the day between 11am and 4pm during the summer season.

Adding in the expected new routes and frequency increases on LTN and EMA will leave the apron desparately needing some expansion. And if MOL is serious about his 24 routes within 5 years claim...

[Mayfly1]

Kinocker, what's the other forum? Tks

[aer lingus]

24 routes??? Where are all the passengers going to come from? Look what happened to Shannon when it got into bed with O'Leary.:=

[Mayfly1]

Now now...and word on the street is that your namesake has also tentative
expansion plans with NOC possibly westwards for summer
2013 ...

[sawtooth]

Said the same of all the uk routes, Tut tuts coming from EI types, no change there in 25 years.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

MOL talks a lot of bull, he says about all these major expansion plans but 90% of the time they don't happon as FR and airport fall out. All you have to do is look at so many press releases from FR and see if they have ever happoned.

Cork, Dublin, Shannon, Belfast and maybe Kerry next...

FR and NOC are happy for now but it will never last long term, as NOC is just about making a profit what will the airport do when Gov funding is scaled down over the next 2 - 3 years, they will have no choose but to increase charges or the departure fee for passengers. It all smiles now but for how long...being so dependent of Ryanair is like a ticking time bomb..Although NOC has other carriers coming, they will always be very dependent on Ryanair.

Not putting a downer on things but what I am saying is fact and NOC needs to be careful like other airports that deal with Ryanair.

[aer lingus]

@sawtooth
Shannon had to go crawling back to EI after FR regnaged on it's deal with them, and again I ask the question, in the middle of a ression with the country almost bankrupt where are all the passengers for 24 plus routes going to come from? I am not trying to get at NOC and FR, I just stating facts.

[Kinocker]

Kinocker, what's the other forum?

It was on the Boards Aviation and Aircraft forum.

Shannon had to go crawling back to EI after FR regnaged on it's deal with them, and again I ask the question, in the middle of a ression with the country almost bankrupt where are all the passengers for 24 plus routes going to come from? I am not trying to get at NOC and FR, I just stating facts.

As has been said, most outside observers couldn't have imagined that Knock would ever get to the level it is at now so who is to say that more cannot be achieved. Shannon is continuing to look more and more like a lost cause in terms of competitiveness so if the two airports go head to head for a route, Knock always has a chance of a win. In terms of passengers its catchment area is ever widening as more people begin to see it as an alternative to often more expensive DAA airports. The ongoing improvements to the N5 at Longford and Ballaghaderreen will aid connectivity to a wider population base also.

Of course, if such a level of expansion was ever to be attempted (and MOL saying he'll do it and actually doing it are two very different things) Knock would need to be careful to protect their position i.e. if the expansion failed they would need to be able to scale back to their current position without the airport going to the wall. As long as they can achieve that I see no reason why they shouldn't seek new routes.

What will the airport do when Gov funding is scaled down over the next 2 - 3 years, they will have no choose but to increase charges or the departure fee for passengers.

Lets face it, the reality is that Knock doesn't need to be overly worried about significant funding cuts while the current government are in power.

[Johnny Tightlips]

Are FR planning to have a base in NOC?

[j636]

Lets face it, the reality is that Knock doesn't need to be overly worried about significant funding cuts while the current government are in power.

That maybe so but the Irish Government is not making many decisions are they....EU/IMF doing most of it, and even though Enda is from mayo he can't get money to sustain NOC when he hasn't got it.

[Jack1985]

NOC at the moment brings me back to the days of 2000-2003 at Cork loads of UK services and EU expansion into bucket and spade routes (the majority). Credit is due to NOC with DUS from LH a good long term sustainable route, i think the idea though of launching European Sun has to change to European City Markets example Rome, Milan, Prague etc.. sustainable growth is needed not Summer Sun and Nuclear Winters (When the Sun routes cease).

[sawtooth]

Start dates for new/restarting routes now on FR site....

From Knock to
Alicante 26 Mar 12
Barcelona (Girona) 27 Mar 12
Bristol 25 Mar 12
Faro 27 Mar 12
Frankfurt (Hahn) 27 Mar 12
Gran Canaria 27 Mar 12
Milan (Bergamo) 25 Mar 12
Paris (Beauvais) 27 Mar 12

Ryanair - New flight offers (http://www.ryanair.com/en/new-routes)

Cheap Flights from Knock to Alicante (http://www.ryanair.com/en/cheap-knock-ireland-alicante-spain-flights)

[CCR]

Ryanair to add four Knock Europe routes - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1121/ryanair-business.html)

The success continues..well done Knock!!

[Kinocker]

Excellent news again - that takes the airport to 19 scheduled international routes next summer I think. 10 of those will go beyond the UK. Not much frequency details to be found yet, will they all be three weekly services?

Also, where will the plane originate to serve Beauvais - I assume they won't be overnighting one at Knock? It says something that they are willing to fly between two non-bases to serve Knock to Beauvais, maybe that there is political financial backing behind the routes, are there any details of Government funding to help the services get off the ground?

Either way it is great news for the airport and Ryanair have managed to resist directly attacking any other airlines' existing routes in the process.

:ok:

EDIT: from the airport's website -

Starting March 27th 2012 flights from Ireland West Airport Knock to Paris (Beauvais), Frankfurt (Hahn) and Barcelona (Girona) will depart every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, with flights to Milan (Bergamo) starting on March 25th 2012 and operating every Wednesday and Sunday.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Its says Paris BVA is operated by an aircraft from NOC. A W from a UK base.

Airport site being very miss leading about Frankfurt and Pairs. Hahn and Beavious over 2 hours away form the actual cities.

[FR-]

Which UK based a/c will be flying the NOC-BVA?

fr-

[Kinocker]

Which UK based a/c will be flying the NOC-BVA?

I wonder if it will perhaps be an a/c from EMA, the three additional days added to the EMA-NOC schedule are the same days that the Beauvais route is scheduled to operate.

I suppose the one downside of this announcement is that it greatly reduces the possibility of flybe going direct to CDG anytime soon, their link with Air France seemed like Knock's best hope of getting a major hub/alliance connection from the airport.

A few other snippets in the Irish Times article on the subject (other than the airport having apparently moved location):

- An early prediction from Joe Gilmore of 725,000 pax through Knock next year

- A commitment from Tourism Ireland Chief Executive Niall Gibbons to run a strong advertising campaign to promote the western region to potential European tourists.

Ryanair to open new Knock routes - The Irish Times - Mon, Nov 21, 2011 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1121/breaking29.html)

[j636]

NOC - ALC on sale for summer 2012. Mon and Fri.
ALC 15.15 - NOC 17.25
NOC 17.50 - ALC 22.00


Milan - 50% Irish 50 other (Lake Garda could be cast as sun area)
Barcelona 60% Irish 40% other
Paris - can't call but will struggle if on Tue, Thur and Sat operation
Frankfurt - 10% Irish 90% other

Anyone any thaughts?

[Kinocker]

More like 90% Irish into Barca I would guess - they've just moved the route from one Costa to the other! :)

Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday doesn't tie in too well for weekend trips to Paris alright, I'd say this route will be more focussed on enticing French holidaymakers to come the other way - maybe a 70/30 split in favour of inbound tourists for that one. Hahn is all about the German tourists, it has worked into Kerry, should work into Knock too.

[Jamie2k9]

Suprised about BVA to say the least. All those times on airport site will change and if BVA is being operated by W from NOC then it is lighlty to be STN but I think it will be done from the BVA side with aircraft from other bases.

Nothing about extending the apron?

[Mayfly1]

I say well done to the airport and ryanair,
it's a much needed boost for tourism access into
the west of Ireland from mainland Europe.
At least Knock has gone and ensured finally there is
direct air access from these markets that will give new
tourists the opportunity to fly in.

[iwak]

Well done to ryanair and knock airport , great day for the west of ireland and will provide a much needed boost to the wests economy.

Great route portfolio now for an airport built on a foggy boggy mountain!!:

[mart901]

Really strange one that, if a W pattern it would have to originate ex UK, my only thoughts are the UK route that was supposed to happen as part of the announcement is yet to come?? I can't see them going for the kill somehow in the current climate, maybe somewhere slightly obscure like Bournmouth, for summer months only?:bored:

[mart901]

Shame if bmibaby go, another competitor out of the market. Flybe or ryanair would very quickly fill that void of course. I wonder if Aer Lingus or Aer Arann will ever open anything else out of Knock?

[Roll to the end]

Fair play to all up there, it's great news.

I wonder how these new routes will work out and how long this good relationship will continue it certainly shows good faith in the airport. Does anyone want to guess what kind of support was offered to them by the government?

I would assume that's it for summer '12 at Knock unless Flybe come and announce something, I do think a summer flight to Jersey would be nice.

Baby is increasingly looking rocky and with fr turning up the heat it doesn't look promising.

[Kinocker]

Baby is increasingly looking rocky and with fr turning up the heat it doesn't look promising.

If bmibaby were to drop their BHX route at least it would be at an airport where flybe could step in like they did at MAN. I'd say that there would be enough demand for a route direct to Birmingham to make it worth flybe's while regardless of what Ryanair offered to EMA in competition.

While there will be timetable shuffles before the new routes commence, with only three aircraft stands and departure gates available it will be tricky to avoid timetable clashes like this one that is currently scheduled for Tuesdays from April onwards:

Edinburgh-Flybe------Arr 12:15 Dep 12:40
Hahn------Ryanair---Arr 12:15 Dep 12:40
Gatwick---Aer Lingus-Arr 12:20 Dep 12:55
Faro------Ryanair----Arr 12:30 Dep 12:55

What are the airport likely to do in this situation? There is a second apron but I'm not aware that IWAK have buses to ferry passengers down there, its used for GA I think. Would they be likely to invest in some airport buses, or try to get the schedules changed? Holding aircraft due to lack of apron space is unlikely to go down too well with low cost airlines like Ryanair I would have thought.

Here's a youtube video with a few interviews from Airport management although it is slightly outdated now with the Ryanair announcement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XchfxtB9Sw

[iwak]

Hi kinocker

Have you flown the edi route lately,how have you found flybe on the route.

Anybody any info on noc man route since flybe took over.

[Copenhagen]

With ryanair revenue, you cannot afford to spend any money on the airport. Capex to expand the apron for a once off, one day a week 30 minute congestion is money wasted, and cannot be accomodated with the FR revenue base.

[FR-]

Ok we like to have low fees but are yhu able to comment on just how much we pay and the other airlines at NOC? Also what is the airport doing with the 10euro off each pax?

fr-

[Copenhagen]

NOC had 580k pax in 2010 = 290k departing passengers. At €10 a head for pax 12 and over (lets say 85%), this equals €2.4m or €6,700 a day.

Department of Transport grant = €760,948

Total revenue for the airport is €10.3m

In 2009, operating costs made up 80% of revenue.

This means that there is just €2m left for non operating costs, including paying loans and urgent capex.

In 2010, profits equaled €293,960. Cant lay much 738 PCN standard concrete for that.

[sawtooth]

Cant lay much 738 PCN standard concrete for that.

Not to mention the site requires major infill work which would add to the cost. Up to 2008 DOT were providing 60% capital grant for essential upgrades. Remains to be seen if they still see any value in this type of capital investment given the huge cuts across all capital transport spending.

If it does go ahead I wonder if they will go for a straight forward extension of the current apron northward, adding 3/4 stands. Or will they also extend east to allow for the central pier plan and future looping taxiway to 27 (but requiring the relocation of the fuel farm)?

[Kinocker]

Michael Ring's turn today...


Monday, 28 november 2011 08:34

An investment of €4m euro has been announced this morning for Ireland West Airport Knock by minister of state at the department of tourism and sport Michael Ring.

The money will be used to extend the runway in a safety capacity and also for the upgrade of security equipment at the airport.

The announcement comes just one week after Ryanair announced four new routes out of the airport to Milan, Paris, Barcelona Girona and Frankfurt.

The funding is being granted under the capital investment programme and 35 construction jobs will be created when work begins on the project.

[Sal73x]

Hi all,
what will they exactly do with this 4M?
Resa? taxiways? Apron? thanks

[sawtooth]

I think the IAA required the RESAs be installed a few years back. 09 was installed first being the main landing direction, removing the drop at the end and adding a turn pad extension. So I guess this will complete that project on the 27 end.

So main benefits obviously safety and wider turning circles for wide body aircraft. Approach lighting may be included though I think it's already CAT3? It should also mean the displaced threshold on 09 is removed bringing the runway length up to 2490, anyone confirm?