IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK [Archive] - Page 5

Locker10a

17th May 2012, 15:46

Fantastic news about EIR on NOC-BHX !
I understand what people are saying about the ATR being to small and i would agree but i wouldnt be surprised if EI put on jet service if the demand is there!
I doubt they would increase frequency as was mentioned above with regard to the Cork route, because of the nature of the NOC-BHX route i think it would be more likely to see the flight swaped for an A319/320 on certain days,e.g. FRI,SAT,SUN to begin with if the demand is there. Fingers crossed but its still great to see EIR take on the route.

mart901

17th May 2012, 15:53

My fear would be it just lending FR a massive hand at EMA because the fares could sky rocket at weekends. That said, they are only just announcing now for a June start so they wont have months of advance bookings but any which way its roughly half the capacity. As I said before, great for winter.

MarkD

20th May 2012, 14:38

Maybe something might happen in 2013 when 319s -EPT and -EPU arrive if the communities on both ends support the route heavily - unless the 319s are already spoken for?

Seems like in this case BE would have been a better result for NOC overall - looking at the BHX departures board the extensive BE network could have given NOC some marketing opportunities for Europe.

PPRuNeUser0176

20th May 2012, 15:50

Aer Lingus have said that the 2 A319 due in December will be replacing two A320 whos lease ends so I can't see NOC going to Airbus. As was already said EI regional have 16 weekly ORK-BHX flights, approx 25 weekly on DUB-GLA route and if they can't sustain an Airbus how will NOC?

What I can see in the near future is it going two daily and this may happen for the winter schedule. At least on Fri and Sun.

MarkD

20th May 2012, 16:30

thanks for the info on the 319s

sawtooth

20th May 2012, 17:33

Everyone is talking like EI and EIR are one and the same airline. I can't see EI moving aircraft onto the route in the near term, as mentioned EIR have high frequency on other routes which have not been upgraded.

We don't know the full details of the EIR agreement or what involvement EI have in planning. But why would Aer Arann open and build up routes, paying EI a franchise fee, only for EI to cherry pick once established, potentially wiping out their business? Perhaps there is some clause allowing this, anyone illuminate us on the workings of the partnership?

Does seem like NOCs plan A failed, perhaps the race to replace WW routes at EMA, BHD & BHX have left them back of the queue for aircraft?

sawtooth

20th May 2012, 17:59

Any word on FR winter schedule? London times are worse if anything this Summer. No early service most days (STN rotation split with BVA), lower LTN frequency. The extra FRI/SUN services failed to materialise.

This is the main complaint I hear about NOC these days from people both sides of the water, losing out on a lot of weekend and commuter demand.

mart901

20th May 2012, 18:58

On the point of EIR and EI its worth remembering that EI is the client and as its their colours and brand at stake they will have a good sway in planning. From the outset EI have stated EIR was designed to help them expand into regional routes where they couldn't utilise an A320 size aircraft and deliver high frequency, and also of course to feed transatlantic (although clearly this isn't their aim at Knock). EI have also said in recent months that one of the purposes of the franchise was to grow routes to a point where they can operate them, one quoted route was EDI-DUB, that doesn't however mean they have capacity to operate it at present or there isn't richer pickings to be had elsewhere. Whilst I'm glad to see them on the route and another carrier at Knock it is somewhat concerning to see the capacity halved and the concern would be the same effect BE have had on MAN-NOC, the best hope for the shorter term is as has been stated they top up capacity at least at weekends.

ryan2000

20th May 2012, 19:05

Same has happened in Cork where Aer Arann's entrance on BHK and MAN has halved the capacity althought it's debatable whether the routes would still have 2 Jets per day with the imminent demise of BMI Baby. The other problem with commuter types is that they tend to increase fares rather than capacity when demand grows before eventually attracting a low cost predator.

mart901

20th May 2012, 19:53

In fairness though now BHX-ORK is up to 3 daily and even at 2 daily its only about 24 seats off the daily A320 EI were running. WW went before their arrival. At NOC the capacity is dropping from 148 to 66 a day. A think the wash of seats at £19 o/w will dry up very quickly, that said it does probably make more commercial sense than a jet aircraft flooded with loss making passengers.

dochealth

21st May 2012, 19:30

Last Friday there were 3 empty seats BHX to NOC. Leaving aside likely fare hike, thats a lot of people unable to get home for the weekend once EIR take over...

mart901

21st May 2012, 19:36

Indeed, and thats in May. As I've said its great to have them on the route but the capacity is the issue. WW have really grown the route in recent months, it would be a shame if they haven't the capacity to offer extra flights. It really could just help FR at EMA which would be a shame.

johnrizzo2000

21st May 2012, 19:53

Well if the EI Regional route performs well, they may add frequency, or we may see EI operate a 320 on the route

sawtooth

22nd May 2012, 09:40

For those who say passengers don't care about aircraft type... The BHX discussion made it to local radio in the West over the last two days.

Several callers commented negativity abut Aer Arann operating the route, concerned about aircraft size and ability to cater for multiple old and wheelchair pax. Comments included higher prices, "not enough capacity on small plane", "lots of delays", "they won't send the plane", "you'd be thrown around in those things" from one caller.

Radio chat shows always taken with a pinch of salt but those were the same complaints often heard about the PSO service. EIR have some work to do in winning back trust after their poor history at NOC.

mart901

22nd May 2012, 10:34

In terms of the a/c scheduled in they are the 72-212's, two of which are re-fitted air contractors SLL and SLN. The other two in the fleet are REH and REI which have had half a re-paint and not sure about the interiors. It might be worth people on the radio pointing out that most PAX at NOC fly with FR and they are not exactly wheelchair friendly

Kinocker

22nd May 2012, 11:27

Interesting post Sawtooth, just shows the animosity that remains towards Aer Arann at Knock. Although this is different to the PSO in that if they 'don't send the plane' this time, the passengers will have some job on their hands getting to Birmingham. I think, in an ideal world, you'd like to tell RE to go do one and stay away from Knock but they're coming back and without an airport up the road at Galway to pre-occupy them, you can only hope they'll do better this time. However, if they become another flyglobespan, or we get a repeat of the PSO shambles, maybe someone else will compete with them on the route and do a better job. Otherwise Ryanair will clean up on their EMA route.

airnoc

22nd May 2012, 11:57

Hi Could Aer Lingus Regional not lease the bmibaby aircraft and change the colour scheme on as it would be best suited for this route

I still think that the aircraft on this route will have to be change as this good route for pax numbers will disapper very fast and now that the summers months are here NOC does not to lose numbers now and have nothing for the winter.
Flybe is the best option with Embraer 195or maybe EI A320/A319

dublinaviator

22nd May 2012, 12:21

People should also remember that as part of the franchise agreement, Aer Lingus would have a service level agreement in place with Aer Arann which would specify the criteria that Aer Arann must meet such as punctuality, on-board service, customer service etc. So if they f**k this up, it won't just be angry passengers they'll have to deal with, it'll also be Aer Lingus.

Jack1985

22nd May 2012, 17:07

Hi Could Aer Lingus Regional not lease the bmibaby aircraft and change the colour scheme on as it would be best suited for this routeairnoc.. I've decided I'm going to buy you a present :E Google Image Result for http://img2.imagesbn.com/images/101800000/101800822.jpg (http://www.google.ie/imgres?q=business+for+dummies&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1680&bih=986&tbm=isch&tbnid=25phAnigxa0GlM:&imgrefurl=http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/small-business-for-dummies-eric-tyson/1100551002&docid=4EEf3bqTGnpedM&imgurl=http://img2.imagesbn.com/images/101800000/101800822.jpg&w=300&h=379&ei=vca7T8ysAoWmhAen_MGSAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1250&vpy=129&dur=604&hovh=252&hovw=200&tx=114&ty=120&sig=114805727478155899825&page=1&tbnh=151&tbnw=120&start=0&ndsp=46&ved=1t:429,r:7,s:0,i:83)

We don't know the full details of the EIR agreement or what involvement EI have in planning. But why would Aer Arann open and build up routes, paying EI a franchise fee, only for EI to cherry pick once established, potentially wiping out their business? Perhaps there is some clause allowing this, anyone illuminate us on the workings of the partnership?Aer Arann operates the route and pay's Aer Lingus a franchise fee for its use of brand, use of call centers and all sale channels aswell as for Aer Lingus marketing its routes (new or existing). I also believe Aer Lingus has a massive say in where Aer Lingus Regional aircraft go.

mart901

23rd May 2012, 09:42

In reply to what people have said regarding EI not cherry picking EIR routes just read this article, it also does give some hope to BHX-NOC seeing a jet service, although I appreciate that could be a long way off and might never happen. On a seperate note it would appear looking at the website that the seats are certainly selling fast over summer.

Aer Lingus unlikely to reintroduce Cork-Dublin route, says CEO | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/news/aer-lingus-unlikely-to-reintroduce-cork-dublin-route-says-ceo-183201.html)

MarkD

27th May 2012, 02:46

rumour has it that some Baby 733/735 (which have long leases) will replace BA 734s which would otherwise have heavy (expensive) checks ahead of them.

sawtooth

27th May 2012, 10:04

Titan 752 operating NOC - LDE charter this morning.

airnoc

27th May 2012, 10:40

Titan 752 operating NOC - LDE charter this morning.

Are they operating the two charter or is it some other carrier with the code FQ?

iwak

1st Jun 2012, 18:17

Good to see Bristol 4 weekly in august extra Monday flight arriving noc 8.05 am .with a bit of luck we will see it back for winter 2012/13.

airnoc

1st Jun 2012, 19:59

http://www.irelandwestairport.com/fidsnet/logos/60x19/jpg/adr.jpg JP968 17:55 ROMA / FIUMICINO
Good to charter in from Rome after all that where the first flights from noc went to.
Any chance that luton would go daily as it does in winter or an extra flight in the late evening from the other london airport?

Kinocker

2nd Jun 2012, 20:13

Rome charter - Italy under 21 team playing in Sligo Showgrounds.

PPRuNeUser0176

9th Jun 2012, 12:40

Ryaniar have released winter schedule from NOC and not much change so far. I'm sure there will be changes but from yesterday they have:

STN - daily
LTN - daily
LPL - daily
EMA - 3 weekly (would expect to increase to 5/6 weekly)
ACE - 1 weekly

mart901

9th Jun 2012, 17:28

Last day of WW tomorrow at NOC.

OltonPete

10th Jun 2012, 15:14

mart901

Just in the climb out of Knock WW1092, never mind next one comes along tomorrow in the form of EI Regional.

Could be worse East Mids lose about 7 or 8 destinations overnight.

Pete

mart901

10th Jun 2012, 15:28

Yep indeed looking at the NOC website you can see both WW today and EIR on tomorrows board! At least it has been seamless. Also in effect BFS with EZY will compensate WW/BHD later in the year.

airnoc

11th Jun 2012, 09:27

Hi Aer Lingus Regional

Bad start to NOC/BHX first day just one hour late hope this does not continue. The flight was in from shannon ontime so what the delay?

mart901

11th Jun 2012, 09:32

As I said on the aer lingus regional page it left BHX 10 mins early so heaven only knows

mart901

11th Jun 2012, 10:05

Its diverted into DUB so looks like a tech prob but not sure. Left DUB at 11am.

CabinCrewe

11th Jun 2012, 11:06

I am always amazed at how much activity there is on this thread, compared to other much larger airports. What is it they say... quanitity, not quality ?;)

mart901

11th Jun 2012, 11:17

Amazing people can post on all sorts of other airport threads about delays, positioning flights, all sorts of trivia. Then you put it on Knock airport and it causes a snide remark. Next we will be referring to it as the foggy boggy airport on the Mayo hills.

ryan2000

11th Jun 2012, 13:51

Never mind Mart, monsignor Horan has proved all of his critics wrong. I'm convinced that Knock will pass the milion mark once the economic situation improves.

fivejuliet

11th Jun 2012, 21:25

airnoc, it was on purpose. Don't you know the crew were part of the "Shannon Brigade" :}

sawtooth

14th Jun 2012, 11:54

May UK stats:
LTN +23%
BHX +24%
EMA +25%
LPL +15%
BRS +9%
MAN -37%

Winter:
Looks like most flights loaded other than BHX. Another quiet winter with TFS, LBA and Euro routes seasonal. Thought FR might keep BRS given numbers have been up each month, but they have at least regulated timings on London routes.

LTN 7x all 11.25
STN 7x all 13.25 ex Monday 8.35
LGW 7x all 16.50
LPL 7x
MAN MTW-F-S
EDI MTW-F-S
EMA --W-F-S
ACE ---T---
BHX n/a

PPRuNeUser0176

14th Jun 2012, 13:13

MAN MTW-F-S
EDI MTW-F-S

Think you mean MAN is M,W,F,Su (direct) and EDI T,F,Su (direct)

sawtooth

14th Jun 2012, 14:39

Thanks, I thought that looked odd, annoying how BE engine lumps in connecting flights.

mart901

14th Jun 2012, 16:41

looking at the BHX schedules for winter there is no room for EIR to run a W pattern flight out to NOC unless they are planning to amend the schedule. It will be interesting to see what happens there, I can't honestly see them dropping it, it will probably be a real money spinner for them with the drop in capacity.

Jack1985

14th Jun 2012, 20:33

iwak

4th Jul 2012, 09:44

I see new euro routes are now only bookable till early sept. Not a good sign!

PPRuNeUser0176

4th Jul 2012, 12:46

BVA ends 13 September.
BGY ends 12 September.
HHN ends 13 September.
GRO ends 13 September.

This is not the first time FR pulled routes in September. They pulled a load last September from Dublin and I got an e-mail saying it was cancelled due to low demand and could transfer to another route or a refund.

Wonder if they will start again in March 2013.

fivejuliet

4th Jul 2012, 15:59

Loads on BVA and HHN in particular were notably poor. Doubt they will return anytime soon

iwak

4th Jul 2012, 19:59

Pity to hear that the euro routes weren't as successful as we thought they would be. Ryanairs aircraft are simply too big obviously. Maybe the future lies with the likes of lufthansa with smaller aircraft to key german cities once a week.

Any time I was at the airport girona seem to have good loads but maybe reus was more successful as it's a Bucket and spade route .

It quite obvious that uk and sun routes are knocks future .In my opinion stn should have a late night fri and sun for emigrants coming home for the weekend from London. Bhx daily is great news however ema should be 4/5 wkly for winter to make up for seats lost on bhx. Manchester should be 5/6 weekly as opposed to 4 with a sat am service a necessity for man u fans like the lpl route.Great to see edi still there for winter .

Looking ahead to summer 2013 management have indicated a Glasgow service !as for potential routes I would like to see a 2 wkly to malaga and palma and reus returning to replace girona. I can't see any other scheduled routes to be honest unless LHR by Ei if we were really lucky.!

sawtooth

4th Jul 2012, 21:33

Loads on BVA and HHN in particular were notably poor.

What about BGY and GRO? Looking at last AENA stats available GRO was around 62% load in May, reasonable for start of the season. REU did very well last few years, perhaps it suited the market for the coastal resorts and adventure park better than GIR as a city break. Not a good sign but it is just 3 months into the first season, and sadly much of the marketing funding and European promotion is only coming together in the last few weeks.

I wonder if they have a multi-year deal with FR, they seemed to have going on MOLs talk of doubling routes, and the DOT and Tourism Ireland involvement in Euro launch suggested the were offering longterm backing.

However I noticed FR slip a small dig in one of the articles about the latest cozy up to Shannon, could be playing them off:

Since the previous Shannon deal ended in 2009, airports such as Kerry and Knock have increased Ryanair services. Mr Cawley declined to go into detail on deals with these airports but confirmed it was much more competitive than what the DAA was seeking at Shannon. “What I can tell you is that free is expensive there (Knock and Kerry) now,” he said.

EI-A330-300

4th Jul 2012, 21:37

However I noticed FR slip a small dig in one of the articles about the latest cozy up to Shannon, could be playing them off:

Don't tend to speculate but I find it very strange that these flights were removed very recently after FR proposed to base another aircraft at SNN. However then it could nust be poor bookings..

sawtooth

4th Jul 2012, 21:53

Looking ahead to summer 2013 management have indicated a Glasgow service

Strong Donegal/NI-Glasgow connections, but BE probably wouldn't go against their own CFN route and EDI. EIR perhaps with another midday filler?

I can't see any other scheduled routes to be honest unless LHR by Ei if we were really lucky

Wonder if newcomer to the Irish market BA would take a look... hub dreams aside, London schedule should be the airports priority, obvious demand for late weekend services at the very least.

Also of note, NOC opened the new business lounge last week. Bit steep at €18 pre-booked but useful service.

The airport local area plan is due for approval next week which should facilitate future development of the site infrastructure, and possibly the proposed business park/Raddison hotel developments.

EI-BUD

4th Jul 2012, 22:46

BA are not going to touch Knock, simply the slots are too precious and they will feel London/Knock well enough served. Yes they would be more interested in longhaul feed, but there is limited point to point, and it's price sensitive, so in short I think not a hope until a new runway/airport for London is built. I would see Cork and then Shannon, in that order as the next Irish airports to be served if they have the appetite, but cant see it happening unless the arrangements with Aer Lingus go really sour.

Cyrano

5th Jul 2012, 08:23

I wonder if they have a multi-year deal with FR, they seemed to have going on MOLs talk of doubling routes, and the DOT and Tourism Ireland involvement in Euro launch suggested the were offering longterm backing.

Ryanair does tend to focus on multi-year deals, but the structure is usually that the airport guarantees the financial terms for four or five years, while Ryanair reserves the right to walk away whenever it wants. You can see this e.g. with recent EC publications of preliminary investigation results of other airports like Angouleme and Altenburg, where Ryanair pulled out part way through a deal period (typically after trying and failing to renegotiate the deal).

airnoc

19th Jul 2012, 15:28

HI,

Due to travel from NOC to LDE on thurs next.

Any info on what time flight is at and who doing as i got no word yet

Keyvon

19th Jul 2012, 16:09

Expect Ryanair to also cut Tenerife South.

Shanwickman

19th Jul 2012, 16:44

Already announced at news conference in Tenerife today.

Tenerife (4)
1 Doncaster
2 Knock
3 Oporto
4 Zaragoza

Cancelación de las rutas de Ryanair

Gran Canaria (7)
1 Bratislava
2 Baden Baden
3 Liverpool
4 Pisa
5 Santander
6 Shannon
7 Zaragoza

Lanzarote (6)
1 Eindhoven
2 Baden Baden
3 Santander
4 Valencia
5 Valladolid
6 Zaragoza

Fuerteventura (4)
1 Edimburgo
2 Frankfurt Hahn
3 Londres Luton
4 Cork

Link here (Spanish)

Canarias Ahora.es - Ryanair cancela 21 rutas con Canarias por los ''incumplimientos'' del Gobierno regional (http://www.canariasahora.com/noticia/227123/)

Kinocker

20th Jul 2012, 12:08

Knock could really do with a boost for the winter schedule - it's looking very quiet again this year. Double daily Stansted or Luton, at least on Friday and Sunday, would be a big help - but will the airport prefer to reduce operating hours to the minimum again this winter rather than go after something like this?

IrishFlyer2013

20th Jul 2012, 13:00

NOC - DUS with Lufthansa is returning for Summer 2013. The flights are now bookable for next year. Good news. :ok:

Mayfly1

20th Jul 2012, 14:13

Thats good to hear, and I'm sure the way they work in Knock there will be more good news on the way for 2012...

fivejuliet

20th Jul 2012, 14:31

From what I hear the grass is not always greener on the other side...it's going to be quite quieter at Knock next summer

Fly_bill

20th Jul 2012, 21:52

Any further insight into that Juliet or whats the word on the street??

fivejuliet

21st Jul 2012, 16:29

Very probable that HHN, BVA and BGY won't run next summer, there were huge losses on the first two in particular.

Next summer will probably see mostly just ACE, ALC, probably FAO and probably GRO along with the UK flights. LTN doesn't look too good.

A proper German route i.e not Hahn would be worthwhile as the Germans like the west of Ireland- decades of charters from Germany and Austria to Shannon in the summer testify to that.

Fly_bill

21st Jul 2012, 18:49

Thanks for insight I'd be amazed if Tenerife and gran canaria don't operate next summer these routes have had big numbers this summer, also I don't see any chance of lutôn being dropped prob ryanairs best performing route from knock I'd be confident with a an earlier marketing campaign for new European routes next year they will improve good loads this month I hear as you say definitely market there for germany

ryan2000

21st Jul 2012, 19:32

They probably needed a greater marketing effort. The Shannon charters depended on large block bookings from Tour operators and these often make their plans 12 months in advance.

iwak

21st Jul 2012, 19:44

Looking at the cso statistics for April bva had the best loads out of all of the 4new routes.fr should never have swapped reus for girona. Reus was a great performer .paris was probably a better performer as it would get more pax ex noc where as the others were more reliant on just inbound to knock.

I think the management should just focus on bucket and spade routes and we might get Paris back if were lucky however I don't know what loads have been like since April.

Bristol has really been picking up since returning for summer.it should be. Brought back for winter also.

Lpl and ema are also showing big increases for June obviously picking up the slack from bmi baby's exit.

Pitty to see man numbers drop but at least lpl is gaining the pax andwe are not losing to snn .

Kinocker

26th Jul 2012, 11:58

Airport looking seriously busy today - Paris, Pau, Frankfurt, Barcelona, Bratislava, London x 3 etc...those three stands will be under pressure. 14 departures showing on the boards and at least one other (Beauvais) will have gone out earlier in the day.

Hopefully this summer isn't the last one where we see such schedules.

mart901

26th Jul 2012, 12:32

Anyone know how the EIR loads are looking?

sawtooth

26th Jul 2012, 13:06

14 departures showing on the boards

30 movements with Cityjet and Adria charters today.

Anyone know how the EIR loads are looking?

CAA provisional figure for June is 2911. WW ceased on 11th and EIR operated remaining 20 days so looks a reasonable start for a new daily.

...LTN doesn't look too good.

LTN figures grew most months of this year, up 16% in June. I wonder if they would cut LTN to facilitate double daily STN? Would mean losing major catchment of Irish population though.

sawtooth

26th Jul 2012, 13:28

The LAP was signed off this week for the airport and surrounding area. It should put clear planning guidelines in place, and will advance the SDZ application. It includes 25 ha north of the airport zoned for a business park development.

However they have added some restrictions including prohibiting retail development outside of the terminal area, and "rural character" zoning of some surrounding lands rural, which will rule out most development including proposed hotel (aim being to make sure such developments locate in nearby towns).

This rural zoning also includes a raised area around the old VOR site within the airport complex, but this is being reviewed following complaints from the airport management.

Jamie2k9

28th Jul 2012, 13:42

LBA being dropped from 9 September, was bookable until 25 October.

EI-A330-300

3rd Aug 2012, 13:53

FR have increased EMA from 3 to 5 weekly for winter.

Also read on twitter that July pax up 8%

iwak

5th Aug 2012, 02:23

Bristol back for next winter 3per wk every mon,weds & fri. Just waiting on the late evening weekend stn rotations now!!!

sawtooth

8th Aug 2012, 10:34

Good to see BRS continue for winter, especially handy for SW England access and Cheltenham / music festivals in the Spring.

Should also mean winter movements up slightly on 2011 with extra EMA and BHX frequency added.

Airport tweet:
Passenger numbers up 8% for July making it busiest July in the history of the airport, record numbers travel on sun destinations also

Wonder if they will pass the 725,000 target, some capacity loss with WW gone and earlier end to Euro routes.

MerchantVenturer

8th Aug 2012, 11:57

There seems to be an additional rotation on Mondays in August making 4 x weekly.

PPRuNeUser0176

14th Aug 2012, 16:25

Route-Pax Carried-LF-Pax up/down on 2011
Gatwick - 8396 - 77% LF - down by 2 passengers
Luton - 7314 - 87% LF - up from 6228
Stansted - 9768 - 83% LF - down from 10262
Birmingham - 3423 - 81% LF - down from 4257 (WW drop)
Bristol - 3441 - 70% LF - down from 3485
East Midlands - 5669 - 55% LF - up from 4886 (from WW)
Edinburgh - 1208 - 55% LF - down from 1783
Leeds - 1186 - 54% LF - down from 2823 (FR drop)
Liverpool - 7355 - 62% LF - up from 6804 (from WW)
Manchester - 2850 - 58% LF - down from 3960 (WW drop)

A little concened about BE routes but the general trend between UK and ROI was most routes had a decline from July 2011 but that could be down to events in London.

London, Birmingham and Bristol are doing very well.

CabinCrewe

14th Aug 2012, 17:17

Yip, some shockers in amongst there. Surely EDI cannot be sustainable at those levels.

sawtooth

15th Aug 2012, 09:49

Not sure about EMA figure, I make it 68% LF based on 5x frequency in July, 22 days operating?

Flybe brand doesn't seemed to have gained much traction in the Irish market, could do with some local promotion/PR. But prices can be high so they could be doing ok on yield.

Kinocker

15th Aug 2012, 11:36

Don't see the issue with the Edinburgh numbers. It was five weekly last summer, three weekly this summer. A 55% load factor for flybe should be sufficient and will be up on last summer, they don't need to pack planes the way Ryanair do.

The route struggles in the winter though, it may become a seasonal operation in future.

Fly_bill

15th Aug 2012, 22:21

Flybe are probably happy with those numbers, if you notice from the above big increases on East Midlands and Liverpool which indicates people are shopping around for the lowest fares. Flybe are yield driven as opposed to load factor driven hence you may have noticed their half yearly results this month - average load factor of 62% across the network.

PPRuNeUser0176

17th Aug 2012, 12:13

Not sure about EMA figure, I make it 68% LF based on 5x frequency in July, 22 days operating?

Thats actualy correct my mistake. The 5 weekly EDI last year also explains EDI figures bettter.

airnoc

28th Aug 2012, 10:31

HI all

See on noc arr/dep board on website that they are 30 flights today.
Is this the busiest day in the history of the airport?

What about next year europe flight what gone or comming new as the airport is doing well by all accounts maybe we might malaga or de mallorca

Kinocker

29th Aug 2012, 11:39

I flew out of Knock yesterday and it was the busiest I have ever seen it. At the time I was in the airport there were passengers waiting on flights to Girona, Edinburgh, Lourdes, Manchester and Gatwick with passengers for another Lourdes flight starting to move in as I was leaving, meaning that the departure lounge was jammed. The Lourdes flights all seemed to be delayed which wasn't helping things.

With only three stands at the airport, the apron was under serious pressure with flights coming and going. Boarding for Edinburgh (which was from gate three to the remote stand across the apron) had to be stopped twice to allow the Girona flight to pull out from its stand and again to allow the Gatwick plane to replace it. Similarly, the Girona flight had to wait for the Manchester flight to depart before it could get to its stand and the Gatwick plane had to wait on the runway for the Girona one to move out before it could get its turn on the stand.

Long story short, the apron seriously needs extending, even as things are it is a tight enough squeeze getting planes on and off the stand nearest to the viewing lounge while the other two are occupied as they were yesterday - and that was with one of the stands occupied by a Dash-8, it would have been worse if there had been three jets on the stand at the same time.

Nonetheless, it was great to see the place so busy on a Tuesday. August will probably be a record breaking month for the airport, but it may be some time before this year's figures are broken again judging by reports of cuts to the European schedule.

iwak

29th Aug 2012, 13:48

Hi kinocker

Was your flight busy?

ryan2000

29th Aug 2012, 16:09

sawtooth

29th Aug 2012, 18:39

On sale for 2013:
Very positive meeting 2day with @Lufthansa_DE very happy with new Dusseldorf service & now on sale for 2013 already! pic.twitter.com/6iOpawYF

sawtooth

29th Aug 2012, 20:00

Cork was at Knock's level of traffic in the early 1990's and it's 4 passenger stands were inadequate to cope with demand. Aer Rianta then put in two extra stands which proved sufficient untill it exceeded the million mark in 1996. I'd say there's a very strong business case for at least 2 extra stands at Knock providing it can hold this years' traffic levels although that could be a big ask if the economy stagnates further.

Interesting comparison, one big change since 90s is the pressure of 25min turnarounds adding to the need for free stands. From what I read it seems several issues have delayed the overdue extension:

Firstly planning. Objections delayed the first phase of the infrastructure master-plan, and by the time they were overruled by ABP the capital funding had been withdrawn.

The airport is now subject to a Local Area Plan. An area of raised ground (which is needed as infill for the apron extension) may be of issue. With the airport in the process of being designated SDZ, it may be cheaper to wait, though that isn't guaranteed either.

Secondly topography. The land required is currently occupied as staff parking and car-hire/services compound. The planned land-side redesign would first need to be completed to move them.

It will be a costly extension compared to other flatter sites as the land slopes and requires significant infill. Fuel farm may also have to be moved and they may hope to bundle other projects such as the proposed pier or looping taxiway.

Finally funding. Nothing provided for this in DOT capital budget this year and the budget is expected to be cut further. The airport has itself been in cost cutting mode during the downturn. However as you say there's a very good case for it now. Best hope is it can be included in a revised national capital budget fingers crossed.

Jamie2k9

29th Aug 2012, 21:48

I don't see why NOC needs to expand as all it needs is for slots to be spread out for airlines and not all arriving at lunchtime particularly during the summer as the airport is open from about 7 to 6 and it could accommodate way more flights before being at capacity. Remember there will be no funding for expansion so if it was to happen NOC need to be in real profit which they are not or they will need to increase charges to cover expansion which I can't see sitting well with a certain carrier.

Finally funding. Nothing provided for this in DOT capital budget this year and the budget is expected to be cut further. The airport has itself been in cost cutting mode during the downturn. However as you say there's a very good case for it now. Best hope is it can be included in a revised national capital budget fingers crossed.

Why should taxpayer have to pay for this as NOC is a commercial airport so it should be funding its own expansion, if this was adopted for DUB, ORK and SNN then airport charges would be much lower now as they would not need to pay for the expansion....Just my thoughts.

sawtooth

29th Aug 2012, 22:56

I don't see why NOC needs to expand as all it needs is for slots to be spread out for airlines

True, I'm sure they try. But they are only managing to balance the books by operating short day shifts, and as most NOC routes are seen as low yield the airlines aren't rushing to offer prescious morning and evening slots. Lack of public transport may also be an issue.

Why should taxpayer have to pay for this as NOC is a commercial airport so it should be funding its own expansion

Whatever about operating efficiently avoiding taxpayer subsidy, it's fairly safe to say none of the Irish regionals would exist without some form of capital investment, if only to maintain current services.

If NOC is growing and fulfilling it's role as (now the only) direct gateway into the region then there is some justification in support to maintain a major regional transport asset that would otherwise struggle to self fund large capital works. Irish regionals don't have the critical mass, group backing or ancillary business income to fully self fund major infrastructure projects as far as I can see.

Previous government set aside funding for capital projects as part of the NDP, a small fraction of the billions put into road and rail infrastructure. DOT still have a (much reduced) budget for part matched funding of capital projects to maintain "safety and security" projects. Last year funding was provided to overlay and upgrade CFN runway and extend turn-pad at KIR, WAT and GWY had similar grants the year before.

The argument as to wether or not DAA airports self fund can be argued both ways, if they pay a dividend to the state great, if they run up debts and don't then the state makes a potential loss. Shannon had it's own taxpayer funded development agency, and will have debts written down by the parent group shortly. So it's all apples and oranges.

Jamie2k9

30th Aug 2012, 01:10

True but I don't see NOC getting a penny for capital investment unless its necessary to comply with regulations etc because its just not there so if expansion is required then airlines/passengers will have to foot the bill.

With NOC cost cutting and all these extra passengers they must be making some sort of profit as they would have collected a lot more €10's than this time last year.

Kinocker

30th Aug 2012, 12:16

I don't think they quite managed to break even last year though Jamie, so the extra €10s are probably just balancing the books and reducing the need for government support. Ultimately there is just not near enough cash in the pot to support every potential transport project so each one has to make its case and hope for the best. I feel/fear that if Knock is not developed while the current government are in charge, it probably never will be - but if the money isn't there then it simply can't be done.

iwak - there were 46 on my flight for a 59% load. On my inbound a week earlier the number was about 40. I also dropped someone else off for the same flight on Sunday and there were about 40 on that one too. Those loads would tie in with the figures mentioned a few posts back.

I did notice on Sunday that the inbound Leeds flight (which uses the Edinburgh based aircraft) was particularly busy with a load in the mid 50s (around 70% LF) but I'm guessing this was a one off or the fares have been cut as the route is ending (for now at least) this weekend.

Kinocker

6th Sep 2012, 21:20

Good news story at Knock, although not unexpected.

IWAK: We are delighted to say that August was the busiest month in the airports history with almost 90,000 passengers using the airport. Indeed this summer has been the busiest summer ever at the airport and we would like to say a big thank you to all our customers and friends for continuing to support your local airport -we very much appreciate your support and we are proud to be able to provide connections to over 28 International destinations for the people of the West and North West of Ireland

PPRuNeUser0176

14th Sep 2012, 23:19

Aer Lingus have released LGW for summer 2013 and its being operated by an A319 which is 60 less seats per day (30 each way).

sawtooth

15th Sep 2012, 11:18

LGW loads have been stead around the 70-75% area for a long time so the 319 looks like the perfect fit for the route. Sadly the times look to be around mid-day so no afternoon option for London commuters unless FR tweak their schedules.

PPRuNeUser0176

2nd Oct 2012, 20:07

All very quiet here recently, anybody have any idea of Aug passenger stats seem as its normally the bussiest month at NOC?

For winter the early morning Monday flight to STN at 08.35 has now bieng pushed back until 09.35.

FRatSTN

2nd Oct 2012, 20:17

Ryanair haven't got summer 2013 on sale yet. In previous summers, it's seemed Luton has gone late morning/early afternoon and Stansted a variety of times, sometimes in late afternoon. Have never been any evening flights like 21:30 departures, does Knock not operate H24?

iwak

2nd Oct 2012, 21:16

There is no doubt knock needs an evening rotation from stn even on fri and sun to help emigrants get home for the weekend without taking time. Off work. It will be interesting to see if any euro routes return for summer. I think that ei regional may have to go double daily to bhx on certain days next year as it has been pretty full on certain days over the summer.

PPRuNeUser0176

8th Oct 2012, 20:34

TFS will be operating for summer 2013, on sale now.

bannercounty

24th Oct 2012, 23:39

Staying in the Radisson in Sligo and while out for a smoke ended up talking to a German guy. He told me that on the 2.11.12 Lufthansa will made a decision on whether or not to launch a new service to Knock. This would be a seasonal route in conjunction with the Dusseldorf service. Nice coup if you can get it.
He also mentioned that they have assessed Cork but that will not happen in the short to medium term.

Nice coup for the Knock guys if it goes ahead.

sawtooth

25th Oct 2012, 08:49

Fingers crossed. MUC must be top of the list? It would open up access to a huge catchment area and some history with charters. FRA also but close to DUS and FR competition.

---

FR have loaded some of the Summer schedule:

STN – MTWTFSS
(earlier Fri departure, Tue/Thu rotations leave 3hr block free for a W)

LTN – M_WTF_S
(reduced frequency)

TFS __W____

ACE ___T___

FAO _T_T_S_

airnoc

2nd Nov 2012, 15:54

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1679799861/Ireland_West_Logo_normal.jpg Ireland West Airport ‏@Irelandwest (http://twitter.com/Irelandwest)

Mr O Leary paid us a visit 2day & was his usual upbeat self. Ryanair are set for a record year at the airport in 2012 pic.twitter.com/r6cs0zg6 (http://t.co/r6cs0zg6)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A6suD0SCEAA8Eq9.jpg (http://twitter.com/Irelandwest/status/264355646231678977/photo/1/large)

What routes have been announce today or are there some cancel for other new ones.?
Good to see al is still happy with O'Leary and RYANAIR so best for mgrs dream to be fulfill.
Hopefully we see a other Germany route or a polish

iwak

3rd Nov 2012, 01:30

Well last year we had Michael o Leary at the airport a few weeks before the. Euro routes were launched so hopefully good news to come. Milan. Is. Definitely returning as they were offering Milan as a prize in association with Galway races over oct bank holiday for travel next year. I'm hoping we will see Malaga and possibly palma .

sawtooth

3rd Nov 2012, 17:27

Strategic Airlines (in administration) A320 parked by hangar apron B at the moment. Is it in storage with the new air services company? Wonder what their plans are for the facility, they will need a larger hangar/apron if they are to offer the services stated on their website from NOC.

sawtooth

6th Nov 2012, 10:16

Interview with MOL in local paper saying:

FR traffic up 50% in 5 years
IWAK currently 700,000, aiming for 1m in 2014
62,000 carried on 3 new Euro routes
"3 was a big ask this year... worked well on the whole... may tweak them next year or run some longer ... focus on promoting inbound while growing numbers".

Sadly no mention of increased London schedule, the sure way to grow numbers IMO.

Kinocker

6th Nov 2012, 11:55

Some positive noises this week alright - to be honest I was expecting a bit of a reduction from Ryanair next summer as the early ending of the Euro routes suggested that they had maybe not done as well as expected. Maybe that won't be the case after all. We may see one or two euro routes replaced with another sun route (Malaga seems to be regularly requested on their social media pages) for next summer.

Not sure why we're not hearing more about London changes - those routes tend to have the highest loads despite the poor timings, certainly a lot of untapped capacity there if the timings were right.

A few references to one million passengers inside two years from IWAK this week - maybe they know something we don't but that would take a serious upsurge in routes in a short space of time...really only a significant upsurge in inbound tourism could lead to those figures in that timescale as the home economy continues to struggle.

Jamie2k9

6th Nov 2012, 15:01

62,000 carried on 3 new Euro routes

If that figure is for BGY, HHN and BVA then its incorrect on MOL's behlaf....

CARNMANORLAD

6th Nov 2012, 15:58

The 3 Euro routes carried 39,747 PAX between them from March until the end of August.

I don't know when they started in March so I worked out the Load Factor from April onwards:

HHN - 13,692 PAX / 56%LF
BGY - 10,429 PAX / 63%LF
BVA - 14,777 PAX / 60%LF

Kinocker

7th Nov 2012, 12:39

Perhaps this has been the case for a while but today's flybe to/from Manchester is listed as an Etihad codeshare (EY7034)? Anyone know anything about this - if you could check straight through to Abu Dhabi and onwards from Knock, it would surely be worth a bit of publicity, no?

If the option to fly on one ticket to and from Aus/NZ via Abu Dhabi and Manchester to Knock existed would the thousands of people in the west of Ireland living in that part of the world consider it as an alternative to flying Abu Dhabi to Dublin?

sawtooth

7th Nov 2012, 14:35

They tweeted it earlier:

@Irelandwest Welcome to Flybe's new codeshare with Etihad Aiways , looking good on our Departures screen

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7FtDStCYAAChRf.jpg

@joegilmore5: I know but it provides ease of access into Etihad's global network through Manchester, including Australia etc

Jamie2k9

8th Nov 2012, 00:33

The codeshare is pointless as you can't even book flights through EY website.

Kinocker

8th Nov 2012, 06:11

Presumably you will be able to soon though - otherwise, as you say, what would be the point of the codeshare?

Kinocker

12th Nov 2012, 12:07

Knock - Edinburgh being pulled again for the months of January and February - second year in a row that this has been done. While the loads are strong in the summer there is not enough usage off season to keep it going all year round it seems. I'm guilty of this myself - use the route regularly March to November but wouldn't be on it in January or February if it was running.

dublinaviator

12th Nov 2012, 14:38

Waterford-Birmingham is also being pulled for the same period. Is this solely down to lack of demand or could it also be down to shortage of aircraft due to maintenance being carried out during this period?

sawtooth

13th Nov 2012, 08:34

Couple more routes loaded in FR system:
ALC – M_ _ _F_ _
BRS – _ _W_F_S

mart901

13th Nov 2012, 10:39

I notice BHX summer schedule now on EI website, daily at a similar time to now. Would be nice to see frequency or capacity upgrade on the route, although anything can happen, still operated by SNN a/c.

sawtooth

14th Nov 2012, 19:55

The airport management replied to a question on local radio yesterday from a UK based commuter looking for late services on Friday and Sunday. They acknowledged demand, but stated it was not economically viable to extend operating hours and early Saturday and Monday services had been sought instead!!

So FR isn't to blame for once. Understand short hours in the anaemic winter schedule. How long will NOC pursue this "strategy" year round. Could creative solutions like staggering the schedule on weekends work? They have secured most of the low hanging fruit as regards routes, so building on core frequency seems the only way they can hit the 1m by 2014 figure that has been mentioned recently.

iwak

20th Nov 2012, 15:49

Any news on the return of euro routes ? It's all gone very quiet lately . I personally think a 4 /5 week charter programme to New York would work well considering its the gathering next year . Just a thought!

ryan2000

20th Nov 2012, 16:18

Transatlantic Charters are almost non-existent nowadays. A short Summer scheduled service is a better bet although still a long shot.

ryan2000

20th Nov 2012, 17:19

Knock might get some spin off from the G8 Summit, it's not that far from Lough Erne and I'd expect a lot of Corporate Aircrraft.

TRY2FLY

20th Nov 2012, 21:51

Enniskillen has its own airport capable of taking most biz jets and I'd imagine O'Bama will park his 747 and entourage at Aldergrove

dublinaviator

20th Nov 2012, 22:58

Enniskillen has its own airport capable of taking most biz jets and I'd imagine O'Bama will park his 747 and entourage at Aldergrove

Yeah but you're talking maximum capacity maybe 10 biz jets, which won't be enough. So the likes Knock and Derry will definitely get a bit of extra traffic for this.

ryan2000

20th Nov 2012, 23:17

Airforce 1 needn't be the 747, a smaller plane could fly him to St.Angelo although I suspect he'll travel in Marine 1 from Aldergrove.

TRY2FLY

21st Nov 2012, 09:26

10 is a very conservative figure me thinks. Although you are right they couldn't cope with ALL traffic. There will of course be even more traffic in the form of world media I'd imagine also.

dochealth

22nd Nov 2012, 07:50

When on my way to LGW on Monday EI SLL had gone tech. On return last evening a/c still on apron. Anyone know what the problem is? Thanks
DH

sawtooth

22nd Nov 2012, 10:41

EI SLL at NOC

RE ATR - tech! as Tom would say "it's not unusual..."

--

Article in todays Examiner on NOC financials.

If I follow it correctly, company made a small loss of €24,000 (despite 20% increase in revenue), incurred as a result of redundancies due to reduced seasonal operating hours. They also miss projected pax figures despite 5 new services added (loss of capacity on BHX/MAN I'd imagine).

Would seem to me the additional services and numbers facilitated by longer operating hours would offset the cost and negated the need for winter redundancies...

Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/airport-operator-in-red-after-redundancy--214681.html)

Jamie2k9

22nd Nov 2012, 14:57

GRO will be back in April and operate 2 weekly.

Knock63

22nd Nov 2012, 23:19

As far as i'm aware the engines packed in, landed just in time.

Kinocker

23rd Nov 2012, 09:29

Aer Arann continue to scare me as an airline with stories like that one. Haven't flown with them in some time and would be reluctant to do so until their fleet are upgraded.

Does anyone know what the €350k write down on land investment relates to, it seems to have had a big impact on last years financial figures?

airnoc

26th Nov 2012, 18:53

Hi
This day 12 months was the big fanfare with o'leary and four new routes.

Are BVA, HAHN, Milan comming back. Girona is back in April al be it two days a week from 3 or is there new routes comming munich was menition.

All question but thanks in advance.

Jamie2k9

26th Nov 2012, 21:53

Would say BVA 2 p/w and BGY 2p/w will be back, would be suprised if HHN is back. FAO also starting mid March.

Knock63

1st Dec 2012, 18:35

Think FlyBe are sending an Embraer for the Edi flight tomorrow (Dec 2nd)

iwak

1st Dec 2012, 21:34

The 175 or 195 ? How come they are using bigger aircraft, I didn't think loads were that good!

CabinCrewe

2nd Dec 2012, 01:59

The loads are truly shocking, down to less than 1000 pax for the whole month for the first time in ages. It can surely only be an operational swap.
Im surprised the route has lasted in its current shape. Twice weekly on a turboprop would more than suffice, I would have thought. Or transfer the aircraft to something more worthwhile.

Bartek

2nd Dec 2012, 10:32

NOC-EDI is most certainly not the weakest link in terms of passenger numbers on Ireland-Scotland routes. Loganair's CFN-GLA looks to be the most marginal, and arguably the most superfluous, in terms of 'behinds on seats'. It's a wonder that one is still operating. Presumably it's only there because the airline gets the subsidy to operate CFN-DUB and is simply positioning in from GLA.

Knock63

2nd Dec 2012, 17:05

I think it was a 175, brand new, 1st flight today.

Kinocker

2nd Dec 2012, 17:26

Thanks for the info Knock 63, its good to see them using the 175 on the route...I missed it by 7 days! The 175 has a similar capacity to the Dash 8 so it is unlikely to be a one off operational swap. We'll probably see a mix of the two aircraft types on the route from now on as more 175s are delivered to flybe to replace the turboprops.

In terms of passenger numbers, they were up in September but down in October. There were fewer flights during the summer than 2011 so those numbers are not relevant for comparison. From my experience of using the service the loads have been fairly steady throughout, naturally a bit busier during the summer months.

Locker10a

3rd Dec 2012, 02:01

I see EI are operating an extra flight to LGW on the 22nd of December, obviously for the Christmas rush,still its good to see there was demand enough on the route to warrant an extra A320 rotation

mart901

3rd Dec 2012, 07:58

Noticeable EI running A320 over that period, also FR have the usual few extra STN and LTN flights around Christmas and New Year. Nothing I notice from EIR on BHX and next summer still showing daily, despite 90+% load factors.

Kinocker

3rd Dec 2012, 10:17

Ireland West Airport Knock threatens legal challenge over Shannon plans (http://businessetc.thejournal.ie/west-airport-knock-threatens-legal-challenge-over-shannon-plans-699083-Dec2012/)

Possibly just a bit of posturing to get a fair share of the pot on offer, but it does seem as though the Shannon plans may be unfairly beneficial to one airport at the expense of a number of others.

sawtooth

3rd Dec 2012, 10:53

Possibly just a bit of posturing to get a fair share of the pot on offer, but it does seem as though the Shannon plans may be unfairly beneficial to one airport at the expense of a number of others.

Varadkar seems to have been talking out of both sides of his mouth for the last year... closing Galway/Sligo on the basis that airports had to stand on their own feet and accepting the recommendations of the regional airports report, supporting new routes launches at NOC, but now saying policy intervention is necessary to stop NOC overtaking SNN and providing a newly independent airport with a generous support package and debt write-off.

"Minister has made up his mind" NOC claiming he has refused to engage on their growth plans and Shannon business plan cites removing routes from NOC as part of it's growth strategy.

Ireland West Airport Knock urges balance and fairness in aviation in response to impending Government decision on Shannon Airport (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=308)

Jamie2k9

3rd Dec 2012, 11:08

"Minister has made up his mind" NOC claiming he has refused to engage on their growth plans and Shannon business plan cites removing routes from NOC as part of it's growth strategy.

Think he means SNN will get the routes back that NOC took in the first place.

NOC didn't urge balance and fairness over the last few years did they?

MOL must of had a few words with NOC recently IMO...

NOC is an airport that opens for lunch and then cloases so losses will be kept down. You can't even do a return to London so until NOC is open for 7am-9pm and offers a decent London service then we will see the loss per passenger differance. If comparing two airports at least have a balanced reason to do so unlike NOC's one.

Lest be honest it comes down to who gets Ryanair and no other airlines are concered. FR are in a great position now.

sawtooth

3rd Dec 2012, 11:34

Think he means SNN will get the routes back that NOC took in the first place.

I think it was Ryanair that did the taking/giving and KIR/ORK also benefited, no airport has a right to any service. NOC from my reading are looking for the right to compete on a reasonably level playing pitch. Remember NOC have been rebuffed on their plans for tax designation, business park, expansion plan, SDZ, and have cut staff wages and hours to break even. So I can see why their nose is out of joint.

NOC didn't urge balance and fairness over the last few years did they?

Actually if you look back at their Chairmans statements and presentations to the Oireachtas Transport Committees they have been calling for balanced aviation policy for years and pointing out inconstancies in PSO, CAPEX allocation, IAA regulation and ATC charges to name but a few.

It's one thing airports offering knock down deals to attract airlines away from another, it's another think Governments giving them funding to do so, albeit indirectly funnelled.

Lest be honest it comes down to who gets Ryanair and no other airlines are concered. FR are in a great position now.

Yes, only one airline has the pulling power and route network, their statement implies that would be fatal to NOC, though I think it unlikely they would pull out completely.

Jamie2k9

3rd Dec 2012, 11:47

no airport has a right to any service

NOC's press release seems to think they have a right to the routes..

Actually if you look back at their Chairmans statements and presentations to the Oireachtas Transport Committees they have been calling for balanced aviation policy for years and pointing out inconstancies in PSO, CAPEX allocation, IAA regulation and ATC charges to name but a few.

I was referring to fairness when it comes to SNN more so.

I will agree all forms of transport in this country are a mess and they need major change.

Remember NOC have been rebuffed on their plans for tax designation, business park, expansion plan, SDZ, and have cut staff wages and hours to break even. So I can see why their nose is out of joint.

Indeed and I would expect a range of saving to be implemented at SNN in the coming months to reduce the losses to otherwise the 100 million won't be long running out.

Will NOC be at a major disadvantage as SNN will not be paying carriers to operate from there (same as NOC). They will still be more expensive than NOC (fact). All SNN can do is offer a incentive like the current DAA ones. It just means NOC will need to be a little more flexibly and introduce incentives to airlines. (ie discount on changes) only problem is NOC is already very low so airlines should be queuing up to operate from there over SNN but they are not and the simple reason is because NOC can't support routes that are not aimed at leisure market from here or the likes of Germany for incoming holidaymakers.

SNN could support a daily CDG flight but NOC could not.

Yes, only one airline has the pulling power and route network, their statement implies that would be fatal to NOC, though I think it unlikely they would pull out completely.

Agree a complete pull won'y happen at most you will lose BGY, HHN, BVA. I have always said that NOC are over relaient on FR and that something like this could happen.

sawtooth

3rd Dec 2012, 11:59

NOC's press release seems to think they have a right to the routes..

No they have the right to fair competition for the routes

SNN could support a daily CDG flight but NOC could not.

It would seem so, but the two most recent trials failed (AF/EI).

Agree a complete pull won'y happen at most you will lose BGY, HHN, BVA. I have always said that NOC are over relaient on FR and that something like this could happen.

As have most of us, it's no surprise Shannon independence long flagged and FR will exploit. What is somewhat of a surprise is that the DOT don't seem as favourable to supporting NOC as they seemed to be (deafening silence from local TDs), and the incentives being mentioned along with debt write-down do seem to give SNN a very advantageous starting point without any mention of efficiency.

Fly_bill

3rd Dec 2012, 21:34

I think the two airports can easily co-exist and have done so in the last twenty years - The Galway market aside they both serve predomianntly different catchment regions Varadkar seems to be targeting very optimistic growth - 2.5m passengers, ywhich lets be honest will require a major expansion with Ryanair - its a bit rich to say Knock over reliant on Ryanair when its clearly obvious if Shannon want to get anywhere near those types of figures Ryanair are going to have to go back in again in a big way and become the dominant carrier - this has already been tried and tested and didnt work at the levels forecasted. Sawtooth is right Aer Lingus already tried a CDG and a LGW and both didnt work so whats changed in 12 months??.

Jack1985

3rd Dec 2012, 23:20

Leo Varadkar actually fooled me into the hope of a new type of Aviation Policy in the ROI. Once again politicians at their best, he's not contributed one good thing to the sector. Nicely put by Ireland West Airport Knock Management. Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=309)

Jamie2k9

4th Dec 2012, 00:12

Only 20 million in direct funding, can anyone confirm it that a correct amount?

ryan2000

4th Dec 2012, 06:35

Knock is in the Taoiseach's constituency and FG hold 4 of the 5 seats. They'll be expected to stand up for it in the months ahead.

Cyrano

4th Dec 2012, 11:47

Only 20 million in direct funding, can anyone confirm it that a correct amount?

I wouldn't dismiss the PSO funding so fast. PSOs have always been a secondary method of funding the regional airports.
Airline: "I'm thinking of starting a route to your airport. How much is landing and handling?"
Airport: "That'll be €x per turnaround, please."
Airline: "Hmm. Actually, I have another idea. I'll bid for the PSO route to your airport. Same price for landing and handling?"
Airport: "No, actually it'll be €2x per turnaround for a PSO service, but don't worry, that's the amount we quote to all the PSO bidders, so you can just show that on your PSO business plan and the Department will have to accept it, and that way we get some extra revenue."

So even though some part of the PSO funding does end up with the airline and with DUB, a decent chunk of it goes to the regional airport too.

sawtooth

4th Dec 2012, 15:30

IWAK CEO Joe Gilmore gave a radio interview today, some interesting points and figures:

- Knock not happy to protest, Government not engaging with proposals
- Problem not Shannon, welcome support for another airport in the region
- Problem is lack of balanced aviation policy. "Shannon decision cart before the horse"
- "Gov policy instruments directed at replacing Knock"
- Ignored Booze report warning on need for strategy before separating DAA airports
- Worried about cumulative effect of financial package undermining fair competition
(Debt write-off, Working capital, Land-bank rents, further Budget tax incentives to come tomorrow)

He gave some details on Knock status:
- Run by a trust with stated aim of economic development for the region
- Seamus Brennan signed objectives in 1991 as a statutory community trust
- "More state owned than the DAA"
- Trust sole shareholder, all income goes back to airport
- 7 board members voluntary, receive no fees bar 1, all profits reinvested

NOC breaking even, development fee earning €3m pa, "would close without it"
€15m state capital investment in last 5 years, debt €10m
€350,000 operational funding in 2011 (cutting all OPEX 2014)

Mayfly1

4th Dec 2012, 23:13

I think Knock management are being measured in their public comment...but reading between the lines it's clear their believe Varadkar is the Minister for DAA airports only and is determined to shaft all regionals not alone Knock, consider Kerry's position also. Knock is the only one with the mojo to take the issue on in the public media. The local Minister and Taoiseach will Ceo under pressure to answer some serious questions here , or they will be accused of supporting the decline and possible closure under their watch of what has been a remarkable success story against all the odds. I think this is just the first chapter of what will be a long road ...

sawtooth

5th Dec 2012, 15:35

Apparently NOC were in discussion with a US airline recently, but Leo Varadkar had a meeting the following week to push SNN, ouch. (Mentioned in NOC presentation to a Dail committee today).

Tom the Tenor

5th Dec 2012, 16:06

If true, the above is a shocking statement.

Government once again seems to be siding firmly with snn?

No wonder Cork has never had a chance when you are up against this kind of favouritism.

No hope - no chance.

dublinaviator

5th Dec 2012, 17:09

Given the investment that's been made in providing CBP at Shannon, as well as to the airport infrastructure itself, it makes no sense for US airlines to be using NOC for flights to the West coast. Maybe the intervention by Leo Varadakar was bad form, but it makes economic sense for transatlantic routes to be confined to Shannon. Just because Mayo has it's own airport doesn't mean it can support a transatlantic route in conjunction with SNN and other airports.

EI-A330-300

5th Dec 2012, 17:26

The talks would of not being with recent SNN news as United would not split there services between SNN and NOC when going for same catchment area and US have always said they would return to SNN which is an established market for them.

With respect to NOC, US carriers have very high standards and NOC would not meet them.

BTW all airports in Ireland will see a substantial drop in leisure travel in 2013 after todays news so its time for NOC and other airports to find something else to offer than sun routes as they will struggle to fill and the capacity is well above demand.

No news of that rumoured second LH route?

sawtooth

5th Dec 2012, 17:29

Given the investment that's been made in providing CBP at Shannon, as well as to the airport infrastructure itself..

True Shannon has been the TA hub, however ORK & NOC would say they had no opportunity to tender for CBD investment, it was bestowed on SNN in another example of how political concerns run aviation policy.

EI-A330-300

5th Dec 2012, 17:31

True Shannon has been the TA hub, however ORK & NOC would say they had no opportunity to tender for CBD investment, it was bestowed on SNN in another example of how political concerns run aviation policy.

At the time ORK and NOC had no US services and it could be said that it would of being a wasted investment. It would be taxpayers picking up the cost for nothing. Anyway CBP dosn't stop a carrier from opening routes if the airline see potential.

CONAIR11

5th Dec 2012, 17:41

Can NOC or ORK handle a fully loaded 747? If they cant then why would you build a CBP facility and limit its purpose from the outset? So SNN doesnt handle them either right now, but it could.

Knock63

5th Dec 2012, 18:16

IWAK have had trans atlantic flights before and only for a very poor airline providing the 'service' they probably would still be providing that service. Given a fair crack of the whip I'm sure they could do it again.

Jamie2k9

5th Dec 2012, 18:52

Dublin - Length 3110m- Width 60 metres

Dublin is 6237m x 45m. (Not 100% about Width)

The new runway was submitted at 3110m x 60m however it will now be 3660m x 60m.

sawtooth

5th Dec 2012, 19:00

Knock- Length 2270m- Width 45 metres

Knock - Length is actually 2345m (changed when 09 RESA added), +150m displaced threshold on 09. Once the RESA is added at the 27 end DT can be removed making 2495m.

Dublin - Length 3110m- Width 60 metres

Dublin is 6237m x 45m. (Not 100% about Width)

Dublin is 2637 x 45, only Area51 has a 7000m runway!! No 60 wides on island that I know, see AIP

IAA AIP DUB (http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Frame1.htm)

------

I think the US airlines may have been talking to NOC, heard something about large Connaught decendance in Philidelphia(!mad, but possible) and the gathering, no info just speculation based on a previous press interview. Either way, one thing I think we can all agree on (yikes) is there will be no TA from NOC while DOT are hell bent on stopping it and ministers can intervene.

cuthere

5th Dec 2012, 20:56

Oh dear EI-BUD. Derry's runway is 1,967 metres long. I think your data is out of date.

As for NOC, why not have a transatlantic flight? Any time I've been holidaying in Connaught, the place has been full of Americans, so I'd reckon, anecdotally, that there'd be plenty of inbound passengers.

cuthere

5th Dec 2012, 20:57

Actually, I've just seen Jamie's post. Dublin airport's runway is 20,000 feet long? Hahahaha!!

dublinaviator

5th Dec 2012, 21:22

As for NOC, why not have a transatlantic flight? Any time I've been holidaying in Connaught, the place has been full of Americans, so I'd reckon, anecdotally, that there'd be plenty of inbound passengers.

There's Americans all over Ireland, it doesn't mean every airport in the country should have it's own route to the states. It comes down to economies of scale, the West coast would be better served with multiple daily flights through Shannon than multiple weekly flights spread throughout airports along the West coast.

mart901

5th Dec 2012, 22:49

Jamie2k9

5th Dec 2012, 23:46

Time for a reality check here.

DUB will be Ireland's primary T/A gateway and SNN, BFS and ORK in future will sustain a few T/A service most seasonal. There is no place for NOC to serve the US. The catchment area of NOC is not large enough to support a T/A service and that will not change with population projections in the future and that people are moving East and to an extent South.

This rubbish NOC and ORK didn't get CBP. Just where would it be put in NOC without millions spend on Terminal expansion. NOC is a regional airport its not SNN, DUB or ORK or do people think its alright for the taxpayer to pick the tap up for NOC and not for SNN?
NOC needs to improve facilites to sustain a US carrier. CBP is only convent for passengers and airlines are not bothered weather people clear before or after the flight.

Knock management need to concentrate on priorities and not getting a US carrier.

NOC needs to keep its cost base down as it is but 2013 will be a very changeling year for the airport (not even taking SNN into the situation) after todays Budget, travel will be compressed even further.

NOC needs to become more business friendly as its not at the minute. It would have real benefit to the region however the airports cost base would go up but the increase in passengers could offset it.

NOC needs to develop better links with airlines and Holiday operators.

As dublinaviator said Americans and other tourists are all over the place, if we go by recent lodgic on here then every airport in Ireland should have links to countries that any tourists in the area are from. Are people for real?

This has nothing to do with SNN so unless you are going to reply with constructive points that are not related to SNN v NOC and SNN has this and NOC hasn't why bother?

sawtooth

6th Dec 2012, 00:32

Jamie2k9

6th Dec 2012, 00:47

Wow the mention of TA from anywhere outside SNN/DUB seems to really rise some people. I agree it's unlikely, and not the priority (LONDON). But if they did secure a 4 weekly NY service, would it really be that upsetting?

I mentioned CBP merely to illustrate another example of market interference, but SNN was the natural choice.

I notice no one addressed the substantive point, should a minister be interfering in commercial negotiations to directly favour one business over another?

Wouldn't be a problem and it won't happen today or tomorrow and as you say London is the main issue than needs to be addressed and if anything is putting the airport at risk its not having a decent business schedule even if it was only 3/4 days a week. NOC could add at least a thousand more passengers a month if the had a better London schedule. Dublin and Shannon are the only options for people in the west to get to London at suitable times.

One final not on CBP, its not the DAA running it, its the US side and SNN can just about support the running of it so how could NOC with a 4 pw or daily service to the US cover operating costs, it would not be sustainable.

I notice no one addressed the substantive point, should a minister be interfering in commercial negotiations to directly favour one business over another?

Can't comment on that as its NOC say aginst the minister and we don't know the full details.

ryan2000

6th Dec 2012, 03:57

I'd like to hear more details of this encounter. Airlines talk to airports all of the time without getting into serious live negotiations. Shannon's main advantages over Cork and Knock are its longer Runway its customs facility but most importantly of all its brand recognition in the U.S. It's fair to say that many non-Irish people there will have never heard of Cork or Knock. On another issue the airport will have to abandon its single shift strategy if it is to expand further particularly if it wants to attract a service to Heathrow or Schiphol.

Kinocker

6th Dec 2012, 12:03

On another issue the airport will have to abandon its single shift strategy if it is to expand further particularly if it wants to attract a service to Heathrow or Schiphol.

Totally agree with this - if Knock has aspirations then it is going to need to expand its operating hours, no question. The reports (if I recall them correctly) that Knock turned down better timed London flights from Ryanair due to cost savings required in terms of opening hours are not encouraging.

I personally believe that TA is a red herring. Knock could probably sustain a limited service, but it should not be the priority. If we are seeing any trend in recent years it is that the requirement is for better global connections from Irish airports is of far more importance than limited services to the North American market.

Knock's main priorities should be better timed London flights and decent links, either by codeshare or directly with an airline, to a European hub. I have heard quite a few stories of people coming home from Australia/NZ, flying to Heathrow and then traipsing across London to fly from Stansted to Knock, or else flying into Dublin. Huge potential for growth in these areas. TA should be behind both of these in terms of priority in my opinion. You can always connect via a hub to the US as well, as thousands do from Ireland each year.

As for Varadkar meddling in airport negotiations, this is poor form but not surprising. I can't imagine he gives a toss about Knock and he is, in general, a largely useless politician. There are a few others in his cabinet team who should be setting him straight though, including his boss.

dublinaviator

6th Dec 2012, 17:23

Given the mass of immigration to the US and all the other cultural links I think it would be better to have flights from a better variety of airports. If I was in the US and wanted to get say to Mayo or Sligo, SNN would be lousy. The same mentality exists in the UK, we have LHR what more could anyone north of the M25 want! Also I don't think mega frequency is what tourists want, convenience means a lot, being stuck in Dublin traffic for instance is no way to start a holiday.

That's not the case though. The vast majority of American tourists visiting Ireland treat their holiday as a 'once in a lifetime' thing, and as such want to tour as much of the country as possible. So there are very few Americans coming to Ireland with the intention of just visiting 1 or 2 cities/counties. As such convenience of travel isn't a major issue. This compares to say VFR traffic from the UK who would travel home to see family and friends several times a year, so convenience of being able to get the closest airport to home is very important.

Also you mention tourists don't want to start their holiday in Dublin, the opposite is actually the case. 95% of all tourists to the island of Ireland enter the country through Dublin, despite having the option of flying through other airports such as Belfast or Shannon.

Lastly, I think if you talked to the CEO of any of the hundreds of US multinationals based in Ireland, you'll find that frequency of travel is very important to them. And given the ever-growing business links between Ireland and the US, having high-frequency flights to the US is more important now than ever.

mart901

6th Dec 2012, 19:51

dublinaviator

6th Dec 2012, 20:32

I hear all those points but it does seem like you are trying to find every way to say there shouldn't be flights from the US to NOC. Surely if NOC can attract an airline and make it work, whats the issue? Whilst I agree NOC is not exactly the epicenter of global aviation its done very well in the last few years and whilst the arguments for being business friendly and having links to say LHR do carry some weight, I think if it was likely to happen it would have done by now. Given that the airport has 3 daily flights to LON, daily to BHX, up to daily MAN,LPL,EDI,BRS and various scheduled and charter sun routes even Turkey this year why on earth not the US? Its much more likely to win on a US run than trying to flog a dead horse on european routes or yet another LON flight.
I smell a twinge of fear in some of the posts on here, that NOC may take from DUB or SNN, otherwise why the fuss? If you think it will fail don't worry, thats a mistake NOC would have to live with.

I'm not saying NOC couldn't support say a twice weekly service to the states, maybe it could. But given that at the height of the Celtic Tiger, it could only support a 4 weekly service to New York/Boston at low enough fares, I'd have my doubts.

In any case (and this applies to other airports such as ORK, BFS, and even SNN), I'm just saying it makes better economic sense to have high frequency long-haul flights through a major hub airport such as DUB rather than have them spread across multiple airports, which will not only reduce frequency of service but also yield, and we could end up with a lower number of overall flights as a result, and that's without mentioning the impact on businesses.

You mentioned the situation in the UK with everything going through Heathrow. The UK is a country of 60 million people, so it makes perfect sense that cities such as Manchester, Birmingham, and Edinburgh could sustain long-haul flights in addition to services via London. Even taking the whole island of Ireland, it still only has a population of just under 7 million. So you're not comparing like-with-like. Even with the business and cultural links with the US, Ireland cannot sustain flights to the US from multiple airports. Right now, apart from Newark, Shannon can't even sustain year-round flights and Belfast can't even support a daily flight on it's only US link. Some of Dublin's US routes are also only seasonal. So the idea that NOC could sustain it's own network of transatlantic routes and that this would have no effect on overall services to the country is madness.

mart901

6th Dec 2012, 22:42

Thats a good argument as well dubinaviator. Indeed the UK is around 60 million. Question I would put forward is though just how many million Irish have emigrated to the US over the years. That one most probably would make the mind boggle. Does NOC really need numerous services a week to the US, or would a weekly maybe even seasonal NOC-JFK or Boston service not give NOC the boost it needs without affecting anywhere else greatly? I don't think NOC or SNN would ever vastly affect DUB on transatlantic no matter what the offering, and I don't see history or government involvement at SNN as a reason for NOC not having transatlantic services. If deregulation is good enough on european services the same should be applied to transatlantic, after all DUB could offer a lot more global services than what it does, given all the emigration further afield in recent years.

Jamie2k9

6th Dec 2012, 23:56

Just ask your selfs will 16 seats in Business and all cargo capacity be filled from NOC daily/weekly. If you can't fill those two then there is no hope and thats what airlines will look at. Economy is just the icing on the cake for carriers.

People who live in Galway and Midlands, if they find cheaper prices from DUB or SNN over NOC and lets face it with lots of competition from DUB and SNN cheaper flights are a guarantee and journey times are more less the same they will go for DUB or SNN.

Having a T/A service will force NOC to open for an arrival at 07.00 (if you want decent connections from the US airport).

We live in Ireland, not the UK or Europe who's population is much larger and carriers like Delta can't even make MAN-JFK work.

mart901

10th Dec 2012, 20:54

I notice no BHX tomorrow and few Wed flights taken off in Jan, is this to do with demand anyone know?

Kinocker

11th Dec 2012, 12:16

Most likely yes, Aer Lingus have cancelled Wednesdays on the Gatwick route previously at this time of year for demand reasons - this is probably similar.

EI-A330-300

13th Dec 2012, 10:29

Sunway add weekly PMI flight from 14 June. Would expect Ryanair to follow...

Kinocker

13th Dec 2012, 11:38

Good news. Has Knock had a PMI charter service previously - I can't remember there ever being one?

sawtooth

13th Dec 2012, 12:24

I think they did back in mid 00s. Should be good demand and a great island alternative to the usual mainland resorts.

EI-A330-300

13th Dec 2012, 13:13

PMI and REU was operated weekly until September 2009. It finished just as Ryanair announed REU and FAO for summer 2010.

ryan2000

13th Dec 2012, 17:31

Sligo based Fianna Fail Senator Mark McSharry is to complain to the European Commission about the unfair advantage that Shannon will enjoy over Knock.

iwak

14th Dec 2012, 01:14

Good news on the pmi but a bit worried we might not be hearing about any route announcements from ryanair.it's getting a bit late.

Jamie2k9

14th Dec 2012, 01:31

Good news on the pmi but a bit worried we might not be hearing about any route announcements from ryanair.it's getting a bit late.

Milan will be back 2 weekly and BVA should be back also but reduced as far as I know. Not sure about HHN.

iwak

14th Dec 2012, 11:24

Milan back in booking engine 2 weekly ,just Paris now and a Malaga 2/3 wkly and we will be sorted.

mart901

14th Dec 2012, 11:51

Can't see Bergamo as a destination from Knock as of yet? Perhaps not fully loaded.

Jamie2k9

15th Dec 2012, 00:10

Air Nostrum will operate NOC-PMI using a CRJ900 or 1000. 90 or 100 seats.

13.45-15.50
16.35-20.20

sawtooth

17th Dec 2012, 11:17

Ryanair have announced Malaga from April 4th, 1x weekly.
_

Also RTE TV series Retail Therapy aired last night, filmed at IWAK earlier in the year while upgrading the airports retail offering:

Feargal Quinn's Retail Therapy - RTÉ Player (http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10095951/)

EI-A330-300

17th Dec 2012, 18:19

Great about AGP being added. Can't help but think it will take from ALC and FAO + EI at SNN to FAO. Wise move to operate 1 weekly by FR.

Luton is showing daily for the summer was only 5 or 6 a few weeks ago.

EI-A330-300

18th Dec 2012, 08:29

Looks like more news in the next few weeks. NOC made a comment about new routes on there FB page and when asked on twitter they said hopefuly will be news soon but couldn't give any further details. Anyone want tonspeculate what new routes might be.

Kinocker

18th Dec 2012, 12:09

Possibly the return of either or both of the Euro routes, Majorca to compete with the new charter offering or a small scale expansion from Lufthansa - maybe a second weekend run to/from a German city.

Obviously something like an expansion in services to London would be great but, if there is anything, I'd say those above would be most likely.

iwak

19th Dec 2012, 22:45

Malaga at last all be it 1 wkly . Management said on local radio that if it proves popular freq will be increased. Flybe figures for November have fallen for their two routes and all others have increased. I still think a lot of marketing needs to be done for the flybe routes to create brand awareness . We will wait and see what the other new routes will be !

ryan2000

19th Dec 2012, 23:15

It's a pity that UK carriers don't register with Irish people. It lessens the chances of more competition and extra routes!

Jamie2k9

22nd Dec 2012, 19:48

Flybe to extend the EDI route closure from 6 Jan to 31 Mar. Was planned to resume 17 February.

EI-A330-300

6th Jan 2013, 01:55

September down 3.4%
October down 6.5%
November up 8.3%
December not released.

How can September see a fall with all the extra flights even though they stopped two weeks in and what caused such a decline in October.

Year to November 645,600. I read that total for 2012 was approx 685,000 which seems about right as 40,000 would be a correct figure for December.

Not bad considering but its way off the projected 725,000 then revised to 710,000.

sawtooth

6th Jan 2013, 13:05

...what caused such a decline in October

No FR TFS this winter, no LBA, and I think some of the sun routes eneded earlier than previous year. No increase on MAN/BHX since the loss of the jet capacity (-40/-28 on October 2011).

Perhaps they had pencilled in other route launches which didn't materialise for 2012 projection, AGP for instance. Still it shows adding new routes aren't always going to help the bottom line, building frequency on core services could have far more impact in growing numbers (and revenue).

mart901

6th Jan 2013, 13:26

NOC really needs a twice daily LON route, this is perhaps EIR territory, at the moment there is a good spread of routes but poor timing. An EI to LHR would also be good, along with extra BHX and MAN seasonally. I also wonder would maybe 3 rotations per wk to GLA or PIK pay off?

CabinCrewe

6th Jan 2013, 13:44

Despite NOC being tried from GLA twice before, timings and aircraft choice were always wrong. Three times a week on a Loganair Saab 340 might work high season only, but looking at EDI and how their NOC route appears , from a loads perspective, to be in trouble, I don't think another Scottish venture will be happening anytime soon, infact wouldn't be surprised to see something cut or dropped.

EI-A330-300

6th Jan 2013, 17:40

Just after remenbering that the school hoildays were mainly in November which would be the reason for sharp decline in October and good increase for November.

iwak

6th Jan 2013, 22:42

There is no doubt that knock could maintain a double daily London but until such time as the airport gets investment from the govt to help with the extra cost of extended opening hours it won't happen.I still think a LHR from ei would work.

Even better would be. Late night arrival and early am departure from LHR enabling pax to do Day return.

Man and bhx are well down but lpl and ema are picking up the slack to some extent. Man is not performing well at all and as I've said before until the flybe brand get some heavy marketing good load factors won't be achieved.

I wouldn't touch a gla service at the moment with the way edi is performing but again if they don't promote they won't have bums on seats.

Let's hope we might get Leeds and Paris back for summer 2013:

EI-BUD

6th Jan 2013, 23:28

Iwak, of course a LHR would work in terms of being a popular service, though it depends ob the airlines interpretation of 'what works', a lot of other much more lucrative route ex Lhr get priority.

Surely with high focus on leisure passengers the existing complement of london routes are sufficient.?

barossavalley

7th Jan 2013, 05:33

Knock airport passenger numbers up 5pc to 685,000 in 2012
Knock Airport had busiest year - The Irish Times - Mon, Jan 07, 2013 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2013/0107/1224328507386.html)

Mayfly1

7th Jan 2013, 12:09

Hats off to the team at Knock is all I can say , to achieve such a positive result in the teeth of the worst recession this country has seen in the last 50 years and despite government policy working against them, well done to all there.
Shows what local endeavour and the hard work of staff and management can achieve against the odds. The west needs IWAK to continue to challenge the status quo in Irish aviation and lets hope they will be given the due recognition they deserve

Kinocker

7th Jan 2013, 12:53

Yes, it's a great achievement to set record passenger figures two years in a row given the wider economic issues not just in Ireland but also in virtually every country you can fly to from Knock. Hopefully 2013 will be another strong year, although reading between the lines of the statement on the IWAK website, 2013 could be a tougher one than the last couple of years for the airport.

sawtooth

7th Jan 2013, 14:07

Looks like they aren't waiting for the Minister, apparently 25 local councillors met with the management yesterday and are very concerned by the new policy, demanding a meeting with the Taoiseach.

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=313)

------

The airport have posted a new promotional video on Youtube outlining the airports figures:

Ireland West Airport Knock - An airport for jobs & growth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm1_HCWk78U

EI-A330-300

7th Jan 2013, 16:21

2013 could be a tougher one than the last couple of years for the airport.

Indeed I agree and SNN doesn't come into the situation either.

1 - EDI canceled until 31 March compared to mid Feb last year.
2 - MAN reduced from 7 to 4 weekly for summer.
3 - LBA canceled shows no signs of returning and with MAN reduced I think it sort of confirms it.
4 - GRO back but reduced.
5 - Notice that on the home page of NOC website they show all destinations for 2013 but HHN and BVA are not there. Now they could be added but if not thats 6 weekly flights lost.
6 - BHX reduced for early 2013 but had B737 last year.
7 - LGW changes from A320 to A319

However new weekly AGP and PMI and FAO/ALC/TFS resume mid March a little earlier than 2012.

And thats before SNN comes into the situation as most people think thats all that will cause NOC problems when in fact it the current routes/airlines.

airnoc

8th Jan 2013, 21:15

On Beauvais-Tillé Airport page NOC is now gone as seasonal flight
but Hahn is still showing. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

Is any of these routes comming back or are they gone due to low number on the routes. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

Any time i flew they were good numbers on both flight. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

iwak

8th Jan 2013, 22:37

Stn flight times are still timed like last year to allow for the beauvais flight.this might change though. However management said they hoped to be in a position to announce more flights in the new year so wait and see.

Knock63

9th Jan 2013, 21:35

Heard a whisper today that FR want to do a Fri evening to LTN but Knock don't want it (staff costs), wouldn't be surprised if true.

EI-A330-300

9th Jan 2013, 22:21

Would say you right. Ryanair from 21 December began operating there Fri and Sun flights between KIR-STN in the evenings from the afternoon. If KIR can manage it then why can't NOC at most it would add 3 hours once a week. Its open until around 17.00 as it is on a Friday and I see no reason why they couldn't keep it open till 20.00 at least.

sawtooth

9th Jan 2013, 22:52

If KIR can manage it then why can't NOC

KIR does have PSO to subsidise operating hours, SXL and WAT have SAR contract. But NOC open until 19:00 in Summer up until last year, hope they are more flexible with Summer schedule.

Kinocker

11th Jan 2013, 11:50

While EI-A330-300 rightly points out the issues that IWAK is facing into in terms of a drop in passenger numbers in the coming year it appears things are happening behind the scenes in terms of putting forward the airport's case for a bigger slice of funding from the Dept of Transport longer term.

Time and Date Agreed for Taoiseach and Ministers to Meet Board and Trustees of IWAK (http://www.midwestradio.ie/mwr/index.php/news/12482-time-and-date-agreed-for-taoiseach-and-ministers-to-meet-board-and-trustees-of-iwak.html)

ryan2000

11th Jan 2013, 13:31

Knock will have to extend their opening hours if they are serious about expanding further. Very few airports manage to break the 1million pax per annum Mark on a Single shift operation.

FRatSTN

11th Jan 2013, 14:28

Remember that Knock isn't a base for Ryanair or any other airline for that matter so all aircraft coming in are visiting from other bases which means that flights don't have to be throughout the day, they could all come and go within a 6 or 7 hour period essentially.

ryan2000

11th Jan 2013, 20:19

True but it's hard to get airlines to increase frequency or to start a service to a major hub if their flight times are restricted to off peak travel times.

FRatSTN

12th Jan 2013, 08:34

I can't see that Knock would be able to sustain such services anyway. I think the best you'd get is Aer Lingus doing a W pattern from somewhere like AMS or CDG but then moving their London service from LGW to LHR would be a start even if it was only once a day in the afternoon, but how viable is it to get W patterns in LHR?

mart901

12th Jan 2013, 10:08

NOC does now need a service into a major hub. I would say LHR with EI or maybe CDG with one of AF's regional operators. Just concerning that SNN haven't been able to make CDG work. I wonder how much connecting traffic BE get through MAN?

fivejuliet

12th Jan 2013, 14:55

When Air france regional operated SNN-CDG it was profitable, but when Cityjet put the RJ85 on it it was unviable.

Aer Lingus' last effort was at a useless time for anything other than point to point.

ryan2000

12th Jan 2013, 16:42

What finished AF on SNN CDG was EI's decision to resume its 3 per day service from SNN to LHR.

bannercounty

12th Jan 2013, 18:04

The loads on the Avro were only about 50% between SNN and CDG long before EI came back on the LHR route. As fivejuliet pointed out the loads were excellent (mostly in the high 90's) on the Embraer. In that era the Shannon management always pushed for bigger aircraft on routes rather than frequency. If they had their way they would penalise EI for not having an A380 on the LHR route.

mart901

12th Jan 2013, 18:25

I think regional jets and turbo props are the only way airports like SNN and NOC will ever sustain routes to more far flung places. As well as airports accepting they cannot just have masses passengers on these routes the public will have to trade FR style pricing in for better service etc. Although FR have had some successes on euro routes its been mostly to sun spots.

airnoc

14th Jan 2013, 18:23

Luton service will go from five frequencies per week to a daily service year round adding 23,000 new seats postive news

Must be something with the gathering http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Knock63

14th Jan 2013, 19:47

I bet there's no major change in the times though, evening flights please.:ok:

EI-BUD

14th Jan 2013, 19:57

Whats the state of play with the Flybe Manchester Service, do the Knock focussed people feel that BE are committed to it for the long run??

EI-BUD

mart901

14th Jan 2013, 20:16

I think this happened before where BE started the year with summer showing 4/5 flights per week, then additional were announced, filling the gaps. Id say judging by some of the fairly steep fares they must at least make a half decent yield but fighting price wars with FR doesn't seem to be on the agenda. Historically it was Loganair, Manx and BA using ATP's on a similar frequency to now, before WW.

sawtooth

14th Jan 2013, 21:23

NOC have a fairly detailed reply on their Face*ook page in reply to a comment on BE routes promotion.

...not correct in saying the routes have not been promoted. A significant markeitng campaign has been invested in by both the airline and the airport in both the UK and Ireland in the past 18 months supported by Tourism ireland with over €150k invested in promoting the services across press, radio, outdoor and online. Adverts appeared in the regional press and on radio on average every month last year. Unfortunately as much as we would like to we dont have the significant marketing budgets enjoyed by the state airports but we do the best we can and look to maximise spend to get the best return, awareness on an irish level we dont believe is an issue as will be evidenced by the full flights in the past number of weeks. The bigger challenge is a distressed economy in both the UK and ireland but rest assured the services are performing in line withe expectations from the airline and the Flybe Leeds service was suspended for operational reasons and is still under discussion for 2013. Its ineveitable given they are a new brand to the West of ireland in an environment where Aer Lingus and Ryanair are established players that the services will take time to develop

LTN
Announcement seems like a return to previous daily service, has been loaded for a few weeks, no late services happening so.

Jamie2k9

14th Jan 2013, 21:58

With the current financial position BE are in and the poor LF on LBA service I think its very likely that LBA will not be back. It was stopped for operational reasons, I would replace that it was stopped because the route was not viable.

I would love to know what marketing budgets state airports get?

mart901

14th Jan 2013, 22:15

I think there's a fair old swipe going on in their statement but I would imagine the state airports would have bigger budgets based on size and volume regardless of where the money does/doesn't come from. Nothing state owned is exactly over funded these days I'm sure.

JC25

14th Jan 2013, 22:45

Regarding the suspension of NOC-LBA, it could well be it was largely operational reasons. The aircraft based at MAN (which operated the flight of course) were reduced by one airframe which may have meant that they had to ditch the NOC-LBA-NOC sectors in order to maintain other flights out of MAN.

Even if that is the case, obviously it would suggest that the LBA route wasn't performing so brilliantly that it was a huge priority, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it won't one day return when it can be fitted into the schedule somehow. As Flybe don't have a base at LBA or NOC, it's likely to remain a fairly vulnerable route to be chopped and changed depending on aircraft availability at MAN.

airnoc

28th Jan 2013, 09:55

Good to hear that Enda and crew are due at IWAK today at 2pm.
Hopefully that his suitcase is not full of wind? :rolleyes:
Any chance more new route been announce http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Knock63

28th Jan 2013, 17:20

Would be very welcome but i wouldn't hold your breath!!

Kinocker

29th Jan 2013, 08:45

So the outcome of the meeting is a joint study group to be set up, chaired by John O'Mahony, with a report to be presented to government by May 2013. At least the timescale is fairly short, it will be interesting to see what they come up with and if it leads to any real development of the facility as opposed to being a token gesture.

In the mean time, 2013 looks like being a year for the airport to hang in there, try to consolidate the gains of recent years and limit pax losses as much as possible, with maybe some hope for investment and growth in 2014.

sawtooth

29th Jan 2013, 12:20

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/team-to-look-at-developing-knock-airport-3369062.html
(Irish Independent)

Wouldn't break out the Bollinger just yet, the language is cautious, and these studies can become a way to kick the can, like the last study on the business park which was met with silence. But the fact the management are speaking positively about it is good.

The big gain I see here (if followed through) is the Government accepting IWAK is a strategic piece of infrastructure, and that they have an important role in supporting it as a community owned public trust, not a "private company" as Varadkar had been arguing.

That alone should remove some pressure in that any business looking to develop with the airport will now have confidence it has a secure future. Like the aircraft dismantling company who had recently taken over the B hangar.

EI-A330-300

30th Jan 2013, 14:49

From 26 April STN increase from 7 to 9 weekly. Fri and Sun flights added.

Fri
08.00-09.30-09.55-11.20
16.00-17.30-17.55-19.20

Sun
10.15-11.45-12.10-13.35
14.45-16.15-16.40-18.05

Not bad timings at least its better than the current ones.

sawtooth

30th Jan 2013, 15:51

Excellent news and interesting timing. Finally some flexibility for London visitors and Irish commuters. Hopefully they can build on this into the future to facilitate business returns and later flight times.

LTN/LGW head to head most days.

FRI
NOC-STN 09:55
NOC-LTN 12:45
NOC-LGW 12:45
NOC-STN 17:55

FRI
STN-NOC 08:00
LGW-NOC 10:40
LTN-NOC 10:55
STN-NOC 16:00

SUN
NOC-STN 12:10
NOC-LTN 12:45
NOC-LGW 12:45
NOC-STN 16:40

SUN
STN-NOC 10:15
LGW-NOC 10:40
LTN-NOC 10:55
STN-NOC 14:45

...

I see FlyBE are flying south for the Summer also (SNN-GLA W/F/S).

FRatSTN

30th Jan 2013, 16:50

Anybody know if East Midlands is going to get a Tuesday service?

From my analysis, there's currently a big gap in the EMA schedule for one aircraft between the 12:55 arrival from WMI until the 17:00 departure to ALC.

The total time to do the rotation EMA-NOC-EMA (including turnaround time in NOC) is 2 hrs 50 mins. With a turnaround time of 25 mins (usual time) and 50 mins (usual crew change time), that makes a total of 4 hrs 05 mins which fits perfectly between the WMI arrival (12:55) and ALC departure (17:00) at exactly 4 hrs 05 mins.

If true, flight times would be:

EMA 13:20 - NOC 14:35
NOC 15:00 - EMA 16:10

or...

EMA 13:45 - NOC 15:00
NOC 15:25 - EMA 16:35

...depending on whether they do the 50 minute turnaround in EMA before or after a NOC rotation.

This is just pure speculation, I have no idea whether it will happen or not. But if anybody hears anything then I would imagine it's true since the schedule seems adapted for it.

However there isn't any space for a Friday service and to me it's seems a bit odd to fly every day except a Friday but no service on Tuesday and Friday makes more sense for some reason.

Kinocker

30th Jan 2013, 18:26

Good to get the extra London flights, although the timings still aren't great they're certainly an improvement on what was available previously. London routes have generally had the highest load percentages in recent years despite the awful timings, so hopefully this will lead to passengers using the route who previously had to use or chose another airport and will encourage the airport management to look at increasing the opening hours to allow better timings on London flights.

EI-A330-300

7th Feb 2013, 15:15

From 2 June for the peak summer months FR add a second weekly flight to AGP.

sawtooth

12th Feb 2013, 16:32

Anyone who thought the recently announced joint "study" was anything more than a classic stalling tactic would be worried by the reports coming out of local papers...

- Little movement in weeks since meeting
- No report team appointed
- Varadkar bringing up supposed state aid rules in interview
- Varadkar brining in consultants, public tender to take several months
- Taoiseach worried about perception of bias if he intervenes
- Internal row in Taoiseach's party as own colleagues don't trust him
- Airport chairman concedes HHN/BVA lost due to lack of promotion, SNN bailout "did not help"

Knock Airport loses two continental routes (http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17096:knock-airport-loses-two-continental-routes&catid=23:news&Itemid=46)

Connaught Telegraph - The unanswered question: How can Knock Airport survive when state is funding a plan to increase Shannon Passanger numbers to 2.5 million at its expense (http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/latest-news/3553-the-unanswered-question-how-can-knock-airport-survive-when-state-is-funding-a-plan-to-increase-shannon-passanger-numbers-to-25-million-at-its-expense)

Kinocker

12th Feb 2013, 17:27

It is ridiculous to be honest. What is Kenny afraid of exactly? He is Taoiseach at a time when there is essentially no opposition to the Government, he can pretty much do what he likes. I'm not suggesting that he should go around building monuments to himself in the west of Ireland or anything, but sensible decisions in the interest of balanced regional development need to be taken e.g. faster improvements to the N5 and investment in Knock Airport.

Any sense of bias can simply be responded to as the balancing out of the bias against the region shown by the previous government for 14 years - lets face it, anything that is the opposite of their work will generally amount to an improvement. Noonan didn't give a toss about bias when he saw to the bailing out of Shannon, it is time for Kenny to represent his constituents in a similar fashion.

Jamie2k9

13th Feb 2013, 00:24

- Varadkar bringing up state air rules in interview

Whats the problem with that?

- Taoiseach worried about perception of bias if he intervenes

So he should be, there has being some stroke politics in recent weeks from Mayo area when it comes down to transport.

- Airport chairman concedes HHN/BVA lost due to lack of promotion, SNN bailout "did not help"

Of course the management of NOC have to blame someone for routes closures, only reason BGY and GRO are staying is because most of traffic is Irish. Ryanair were practically giveing seats away for free on the routes and people still don't want them. Its not that people don't know about the routes. Millions of people log onto FR website every week and would clearly see there routes.

The simple problems is Knock, people haven't a clue where the airport is located or anything about it. A better name is needed as Ireland West Airport Knock or Knock means nothing to a non Irish person and I wouldn't book a flight to Knock as there is such a lack of information as the airports in the middle of nowhere. If airport was closer to Westport and called Westport it would have a place on the map as tourists go there and know the name, like everybody knows Shannon. A better name is needed is routes are to be secured.

Lack of promotion:
Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_archive_details.aspx?id=286)

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_archive_details.aspx?id=288)

Ireland West Airport Knock (http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_archive_details.aspx?id=291)

Of course SNN is the reason why these routes failed if NOC management would grow up and just realize lots of money was spend to promote these services but they failed but no they have to blame someone because they failed. Would be great if airport management could tell me why Lufthansa service didn't fail with these lack of promotion. If NOC was given a few more million to advertise these routes the out come would of being the same. I also don't see the ADF going down well with tourists, showing up to the airport and being told pay to leave on a flight. Could be wrong but LH collected the fee for the airport. It's ridiculous that tourists get not notice about the fee and are expected to just pay it. News of that will spread once they return home.

NOC will always be an airport for sun services and UK flights. I know people won't accept this but its where the airports future lies.