Air Japan (AJX) B767 [Archive] - Page 6

meguro

21st May 2011, 02:00

AJX, the new company formed out of the comination of ANA and JP express and AJX (PAX), has reflected at their shrinking staffing levels and appalling recruiting rate and has released a revised policy statement relating to days off, laundry, duty times, currency fluctuation policy, commute policy and days off allocation policy.
Someone else may wish to summarize it better, but it's all bad.

1. You cannot arrive in Japan on the day you start work for safety reasons and this will "strictly" be enforced. You can however, fly all night for AJX arrive in the morning at a destinataion, stay anywhere from 8 to 12 hours and then fly back the same night. If you live in Europe. the USA or Australia, you will be leaving home a day earlier so as you can utilize you commute day by sitting on your butt in Japan for about 36 hours. Don't forget you're paying for the hotel.
When all is said and done, we lose a day, get given two commute days, both of which we can't use.
The extra commute days that we gain or lose however you see it are subjext to AJX's business model. Which means when the rest of the guys leave they can't do it!

2. We lose $500 per month, but we get Free LAUNDRY!

3. Now if you happen to be sick after July 1st, you have to go visit their AJX doctor and he may not.....'Concur'

4. AJX will be streamlining the days off to allocate them months in advance, so you can forget your plans and your life.

5. On your last day of work you "will be available for duty"

6. I haven't even touched on the comedy of the exchange rate!

7. And they finish off with:

We trust that you will find these changes to your satisfaction and we thank you for your understanding and patience during the last few months while Air Japan were working on these changes.

Kind regards

I find their propsals a cheap trick and an awful attempt at a childish con, it's more dissappointing than anything. Bye bye hello Kitty Land.

gaijin

21st May 2011, 02:55

Very succinct Meguro though you did forget to mention that there is now water in a brand new fridge in our prison cell at Okinawa! It is also worth mentioning that we have as a pilot group taken a >20% pay cut over the last 24 months, a fact that both the contract companies and the Japanese are happy to forget.
China is very probably a more honest, better paid, more attractive proposition than Japan, not only that it is growing and doesn't shake every day!

meguro

21st May 2011, 03:25

And full or radiation!

The Yank

21st May 2011, 09:22

I must say that all though I am not surprised with the 'new and improved' working conditions, I am very disappointed.

While the rest of the industry seems to be making improvements to pilot's T&C's(in some cases very small improvements) AJX have decided to go a new direction by keeping pay the same... or worse, with less flexibly and more control in all aspects.

With the exchange rate of the USD and the inflation in the US/EU/AUS the contract has decrease in value to the point that I could not recommend it to anyone anymore. It's a real shame because it was a very nice place to work.

Pilot intakes over the last year have decrease dramatically and with the new working conditions I cannot see that changing. I can only guess that the real intention of the company is to wind this experiment down to eventually close the company down.

Oh well, I guess time to dust off the CV once again. :rolleyes::ugh:

galdian

21st May 2011, 11:08

Quote:

"China is very probably a more honest..............."

:D:D:D:D:=:D:D:D:=

At the very least an amusing comment. :ok:

ishi59

21st May 2011, 13:15

Another point for any prospective F/O applicants is the fact that the command upgrade programme has slowed down. This will mean that a large number of F/O's in the company will not see the upgrade in their first contract, something PROMISED by AJX and the contract companies.

Be careful of any such promises being made, they seem to be hellbent on chasing the foreigners away.

gaijin

22nd May 2011, 21:10

Kept pay the same The Yank says. All the freighter pilots have taken a 5% pay cut in money no longer being paid to them. For everybody who lives outside the US of A the insidious backward creep of the greenback has meant a real loss of earnings in excess of 20% so in fact we have over the last two years lost a quarter of our salary, now call me a bluff old traditionalist but 25% is a pay cut in my book?

Fratemate

23rd May 2011, 00:34

As many of my posts will attest, I've been quite pro-AJV/AJX in my comments. I know in the last year or so these comments have become progressively more negative, as the blundering assholes in the Office run around like headless chickens and fail to achieve anything meaningful (apart from re-organising the desks :rolleyes:) but this latest change to our conditions has firmly put me now in the 'stay away' camp.

They've introduced 2 commuting days but then said you cannot commute on the last day of work and have to be at work the day before your roster starts. Result: bugger all, in fact less than that as you now have 2 extra nights to pay for in the hotel.

They've introduced an 'exchange rate protection' on 50% of the per diem. Big deal. What's happened to the money we've lost in the interim i.e. since Aug 2008 (when the 'acceptable' rate is set)? Back pay to then? No. We saw the same with the hotel allowances and the fact that we've been underpaid since Aug 2008. So excuse me if I don't get the banners out and start waving because that massively generous 'protection' of 50% of the per diem is going to work out at about $150/month. Wow, how will I invest it all.....I know, it'll pay for the extra nights in the hotel. Result: no gain.

Free uniform laundry. I can almost guarantee they've done this as it costs more in admin to separate us from ANA Mainline, who get there's done free. But, hey, $20 per month......can't sneeze at that can you :=

For Australians there's been a salary loss of approximately 43% due to the high Oz $ and crap US $. A similar high loss has been experienced by the European pilots. During that time the Yen has remained very strong against the US $ and AJX has simply reaped the benefits. Likewise, WE have been instrumental in increasing the cargo profit by 500%, while being subject to the consequences of combining AJV & AJX, while the profits of doing so are enjoyed by the Company. I have no problem at all with profiting through combining synergies and us doing our job well. I DO have a HUGE problem when I am then paying for so they can show an even steeper increase on their pretty graphs. They've had to keep the cargo boys on the slightly higher pay for the last 3 months as they couldn't get their act together and sort out passenger 'training' (I use that in the loosest possible terms) but, come I July, we all become absolutely one (unhappy) family and not only do I not get a salary increase but I lose $500/month. SO, well done AJX, you have absolutely failed 100% to address the huge issue that we've been telling you for ages.

The only positive in all of this is it has allowed some 'fence sitters' in the Company to have the decision to leave made a lot easier. I think we're up to 5 at the moment but, come July when a lot of the AJV contracts come up, I'm sure there will be others. It is sad that these guys are going because they are good people and a pleasure to work with. I would rather they didn't go but this will be the only thing the 'managers' at AJX will listen to.

In closing, I will categorically state that you should STAY AWAY. This is NOT an attempt to further our cause by ensuring nobody joins so they have to listen but this is advice to stop you being hugely disappointed by the spin being offered by the agencies (to be fair, as a reaction to the demands of the Company):

There has been no salary increase for a LONG time. There is no protection for the crap US$. The Yen is very strong = expensive to stay and 'live' in Japan. The allowances do not cover the expenses you will pay, especially as there will be more time in the NRT hotels as they combine pax and cargo rosters. The days off changes have made absolutely no difference and there are better contracts out there now. As Ishi said, as an FO you can almost guarantee you will not get upgraded on your first contract (they may 'assess' you but getting the 4 stripes will, almost certainly, not happen within the 5 years). And you get to do all of this while the Japanese Government lies to you about radiation levels and the effects on food, water etc :*

I knew I was going to hate this Monday morning :(

E165

23rd May 2011, 01:56

One advice: STAY AWAY (at least until things improve; whenever that would be)

Cannot recommend this place to anyone anymore.

ratpoison

25th May 2011, 01:05

Thanks for the update gents. What a f***ed up industry. That lawn mowing franchise is looking rather attractive! :uhoh:

PoinDextir

25th May 2011, 05:19

I would be doing my fellow aviators a dis-service if I did not echo their sentiments.....STAY FAR FAR AWAY from this place. Just when you think things cannot get any worse, the Japanese never fail to out do themselves! They're a bunch of idiots steering a rudderless ship at this point and there be icebergs ahead!

-Dex

dogtired

29th Jun 2011, 22:58

what is the latest?

meguro

30th Jun 2011, 04:54

Still problems, crew walking, ANA not renewing some contracts, promised upgrades evaporating.

Moronic memos being issued about being Fair!

Pay cut takes effect July 1st. Chronic sickness about to spread through the ranks.

Same same you might say, in any case stay away unless you have a lifeboat or you're in the water anyway, which in any case something is better then nothing.

gomets

8th Aug 2011, 21:21

I realize this thread has taken many twists and turns.......

It seems that the morale at ANA has taken a turn for the worse...:uhoh:

---I'm trying to understand the "new" commuting contract... It sounds like they have given two extra days off to commute, but you now have to show up for duty atleast a day early? Is that correct? For someone coming from the USA (east coast) does that have much of an effect on the "normal" commute? I'd assume that getting there a day early would be the norm anyways?? If I ever pulled the trigger and got hired I'd contemplate a Seattle commute, how many days could I expect to be home with the commute and all.....

--Also, for those that have accepted the job, especially if furloughed with no other options in this job climate... How is the being away from wife and kid for 3 weeks at a time? I know different strokes for different folks, but for me I think I'd be excited for the new job with international destinations, new a/c etc...But I'd be afraid that as the first or second year went by I'd be more and more disgruntled at the time away...anyone having any hard times accepting that with no other job prospects, the time away may be the norm for a very long time?

--How's the hiring prospects at ANA? Are they hurting for applicants still? Any rumors of downsizing at all? Besides the online app. I have very easy access to drop by Honolulu to persoanlly drop of my stuff. I'd hope this would be a good thing and increase any chance to get hired??

--Finally, training...Is family still able to come out atleast once? Or more....the 6 months of training is probably one of my biggest fears of being away unless the family can visit once or twice..

Thanks,

I realize alot of this is covered somewhere in this thread, but it's been awhile since any posts....

The Dominican

8th Aug 2011, 23:34

It sounds like they have given two extra days off to commute, but you now have to show up for duty atleast a day early? Is that correct? For someone coming from the USA (east coast) does that have much of an effect on the "normal" commute? I'd assume that getting there a day early would be the norm anyways??

Arriving the day before is the normal commute from the US because it would be insane to commute across 15 time zones and then start one of our infamous 14 to 15 hour duties, only guys that commute from S.E. Asia or commutes that don't cross many time zones (no jet lag issues) are the ones that are affected by the new commuting rules.

how many days could I expect to be home with the commute and all.....

Lets say that you choose the commuting days option and you also use your vacation days monthly, you will get 10 days off + 2 Commuting days + 2 vacation days making it 14 days off in a row, you will get 12 days at home and spend two days commuting.

--Also, for those that have accepted the job, especially if furloughed with no other options in this job climate... How is the being away from wife and kid for 3 weeks at a time? I know different strokes for different folks, but for me I think I'd be excited for the new job with international destinations, new a/c etc...But I'd be afraid that as the first or second year went by I'd be more and more disgruntled at the time away...anyone having any hard times accepting that with no other job prospects, the time away may be the norm for a very long time?

There are many guys here that are on their second and third contracts, most of us are married with families. It is aviation man, being away is part of the gig and I only can say that it has worked out for me and that my family and I have adjusted to the life style but it is impossible for me to tell you how it will work out for you or how disgruntled you will be two years down the road, If I could do that I would be making a lot of money with a 1-800 psychic hotline:E

--How's the hiring prospects at ANA?

Hiring is ongoing

Are they hurting for applicants still?

Yes
Any rumors of downsizing at all?

No

Besides the online app. I have very easy access to drop by Honolulu to persoanlly drop of my stuff. I'd hope this would be a good thing and increase any chance to get hired??

I honestly think that it won't make any difference so safe your money, the agencies only gather the information for ANA and they choose who they want to interview

--Finally, training...Is family still able to come out atleast once? Or more....the 6 months of training is probably one of my biggest fears of being away unless the family can visit once or twice..

Your spouse can travel twice during the six month period and you siblings once during that period, they offer apartments to the new guys so technically your family can stay for the duration of their visa (90 days)

gomets

9th Aug 2011, 02:43

Great info thanks Dominican.....

That new commuting policy seems like a better deal for the USA guys.. (I'm sure there was a cost though....airlines don't usually improve the lives of the pilots withjout taking something in return!):mad:

I know a guy who commutes from the East Coast (US)...He normally would leave on a Monday to start a trip on Wed. Basically losing a day or two at home. So now he gets to leave on Wed. That is better for him I would think...

18 days away and 12 at home is a bit more acceptable than 21-22 days away and 8-9 at home..... I did the 121 thing for about 5 years, but there is a huge difference being gone 4-5 days vs. 18-20...That's the only part I'm trying to wrap my head around....

I've got 7000+ and have been in some form of turbine for the last 11 years so hopefully that will be something they might take a look at?

Thanks again

thepounder

10th Aug 2011, 23:21

It is more like 9 months from start to finish...not 6 months. Just so you know.

The Dominican

15th Aug 2011, 08:06

September class was canceled, couldn't find suitable applicants:hmm:

CaptainProp

15th Aug 2011, 08:19

Interesting.

Not enough experienced pilots around anymore for T&Cs on offer? T&Cs really that bad? Completely unrealistic recruitment policies?

atpcliff

15th Aug 2011, 13:22

Heard KAL needed 80 guys by year end, and they had 0% chance of that happening.

What will airlines like ANA do down the road, as recruiting gets more and more difficult???

CaptainProp

15th Aug 2011, 13:56

I have a feeling that Italy, Spain and the AA+ rating on the US will take care of that...at least in the short term.

Long term....? Not so sure. BA need 800 pilots by 2016, Gulf airlines need 1700 pilots per year, airbus backlog for the 320neo is now 1000+ aircraft and Boeing has how many orders? China and India still showing showing double digit growth rates etc etc...

Then again, we have been hearing about this so called "pilot shortage" before haven't we? :cool:

The Dominican

15th Aug 2011, 14:50

I don't really believe in an overall shortage of pilots but there is definitely the need for experienced pilots with wide body PIC that can cover DEC positions, airlines in the middle and the far east are feeling the pinch already and they will have to sweeten the deal if they want to get people interested. Here in Japan the need for pilots is bad now and it will become grave when the LCC's enter the market next year.
Several things didn't turn out to be as grave as some pundits were predicting, first the so called "JAL effect" didn't turn the market upside down as some were saying, most of the pilots that were displaced (nowhere near the numbers that were predicted) have already moved on to other jobs or left the business all together, JAL is in a lot better shape financially today than it was even two years ago and the attrition due to retirements should kick in again by late next year according to some of their pilots that I have talked to, they tell me that right now they are short on crews and that even without any growth when guys start reaching 60 again they will be leaving at the same rate they were before the bankruptcy, recruiting of new cadets will be very hard for them because people will be very reluctant to start a career at an airline that can displace you out of seniority as they did. I'll be so bold as to say that JAL will be a source of expat jobs in the no so distant future because of that.
The natural disaster here in Japan didn't turn out to be the economical disaster that pundits were predicting either and the world economy will begin racing again, I know there is a lot of speculation about this AA+ rating but there is a more politics than sensible economics behind that.
Airlines will have to sweeten the deal if they want to attract suitable candidates, either that or park airplanes

Talon1

17th Aug 2011, 07:24

Something mentioned in an earlier post about no real chance of an upgrade in first contract (5 years??).
Is this still the case? Any chance at ALL??

oldhasbeen

18th Aug 2011, 01:56

real good chance if everyone who says they want to bail from here actually does:eek:

The Dominican

19th Aug 2011, 01:48

no real chance of an upgrade in first contract (5 years??).
Is this still the case? Any chance at ALL??

Nobody can give you an accurate answer to that Talon, we simply don't know. Right now there are some guys that are going back to the US taking recalls and other guys are looking into opportunities closer to home (the International market is getting a lot better) we don't know what are ANA's plans for AJX or how will the introduction of LCC's into the Japanese market next year will affect us or even if they will take steps towards maintaining competitiveness on our T&C's, too many variables to be able to predict, come here expecting to complete your contract on the seat you were hired and if something else happens, then you just got lucky I guess

For years now I have been reading Internet experts predictions of six months left before our contracts are canceled so dust your resumes, That goes to show that in aviation the future is difficult to predict

gomets

23rd Aug 2011, 05:28

I think it was in the "Japan outlook" thread that someone states that it appears that they are slowly winding this experiment down and closing shop....

And that it was time to dust off the resume..

Question:

1)Is there any hint of downsizing or was that just someone being frustrated at how things are due to the merger?

2) Is most of the flying now relegated to the cargo ops and flying the backside of the clock? (I am not too concerned about flying pax or not, but curious where the company and contract guys are headed.)

I have a stable job, just not a place I want to spend a career. And from the outside the contract gig looks good. Plus it would be nice to finally get into a plane I can stand up in. Not too mention the international experience etc...Just don't want to screw our family by leaving a stable job for something that will end in a year or two..(assuming I can even get an interview of course!!)

BTW the ANA gig would be a nice pay raise. Family is fine with the work days/time off.. And I'm used to commuting home a very long distance..just don't want to end up on the street because of it...

The Dominican

23rd Aug 2011, 08:17

Ever since the beginning of the original AJX (before the separation of the two companies, AJX and AJV) and now through the re integration of the two operations, I'm talking close to 15 years that this particular gig has been around there has always been some Internet pundit predicting the end. ANA is making profits left and right and the passengers and cargo numbers are back to pre earthquake levels if not higher, they have a lot of A/C's on order and a recruiting deficit into both mainline and the subsidiaries with very high attrition due to retirements. What we are concerned about is not if the job will be here tomorrow but how will it look tomorrow, I think the days of two night layovers in exotic destinations is over and this will become just another one of the many other contracts out there that are minimum rest, back of the clock mostly, nickle pinching (specially with the introduction of the LCC's next year) jobs out there and most likely (and this is my opinion only) a cargo only operation once the LCC's start covering some of the international flying. I cannot tell you how much I hope that I am wrong

Besides there are more opportunities now on the international market that there have ever been, by no means I'm telling you to leave a stable job and come here or even to jump into the contract arena, I cannot give you such guarantees when I don't even know how it will work out for me, none of us can tell you what the future holds, none of us. All I'm saying is that in the unlikely event that I find myself on the market again, I'm not too concerned about lack of opportunities.

I'll tell you something about Pprune though, you will be more confused and unsure after you get several replies to your questions than you were before you asked them, that I can guarantee

gomets

26th Aug 2011, 09:11

Did they cancel the class because not enough guys passed the interview or did they not get enough qual. applicants from the hiring firms?

As far as the medical .... I passed a US ARMY flight Physical last year (not the MEPS general physical, but the actual travel to the ARMY base and visit multiple buildings for eye, blood, and physical...took every bit of all day).. I assume the tests are pretty similar? Anyone know if that is true or pretty close?

I tried e-mailing CREW last week and also tried calling them twice yesterday.....I'm under the assumption they don't man the office at all times? Or has anyone else had problems getting in touch with them for general app. questions?

I'm gonna start tackling the Autobiography soon and don't know if there is a spot for it OR do I do a Word document and upload it into the "Documents" and "Logbook" section?

So many questions, so little knowledge:)... All I know is I think I'd look forward to working out of Japan.. It is one of the countries I've always wanted to visit and learn about.

bringbackthe80s

28th Aug 2011, 10:02

https://tbe.taleo.net/NA7/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=HACS&cws=2&rid=15

there you go, you need the 250 hrs PIC.:rolleyes:

gomets

28th Aug 2011, 18:42

I've started reading through this entire thread to get as much info as possible...

Sometime in 2008 it appeared they had a fairly high wash out rate. And others were passing the interview only to be told there were others with higher "scores"... I'm assuming that was mostly Captains and mainly due to the large amounts of pilots applying and being well qualified? Is that mostly accurate?

Were there any instances of FO's passing all the inteviews and getting told "no thanks"?

I'm sure times have changed since that was more than 3 years ago..(an eternity in aviation:})

gomets

28th Aug 2011, 18:44

FLYCOLD,

The way I've always read it, and it's just here in the US....If you have three stripes on your shoulders (or are not called Captain in the FBO's) you're only able to log those hours as SIC. I've never logged 1 hour of time in the regionals other than SIC time. Even though I flew every other leg. Some guys will try to log PIC time if the Captain gets up to use the lav.. That won't work either. You have to be signing off for the flight to be considered PIC (here in the US.)

In the charter world it's a bit different. Some guys will log PIC time if they are flying and it is an empty leg (not pt. 135). But they better make sure they have a PIC type rating for that a/c.....

If I was hired by ANA, and even with the 767 command type. I'd never consider logging any time other the SIC...

I'd say call a recruiter to find out what is considered acceptable. It wouldn't look to good if you got an interview and had to explain why you have x amount of time logged but were considered an SIC by your company.

bringbackthe80s

29th Aug 2011, 16:35

Ya,it sounds right actually..either you fly around on a 152 :O or wait until you get the command at your current company and take it from there.
It was quite some time ago but I heard of someone having to do some xcountry flying in a piper after starting the contract to comply with the minima...

gomets

29th Aug 2011, 20:34

Wow, having to fly around in a piper to get the time!! I've got to say the laws of supply and demand were strong on that one!:)

It's crazy to look at how things change year to year... One year someone could have walked onto a company, the next you need a shuttle rating (not necessarily ANA just in general) 10-15 years ago we all (in the US) could have walked onto SWA, now it's like winning a lottery ticket (lottery is a game here in the US that gives you about a 1:10,000,000 chance of winning).

But in the end, it's all worth it. Not a day goes by I remember that working a normal 9-5 is quite boring!!

The Dominican

29th Aug 2011, 23:15

They are very strict here on regards to the minimums, if you are missing 1 hour you might as well be missing 100 hours, you simply don't meet the minimums.

Only time where you are actually in command of the flight is what they are looking for, in many of these jobs in the international market they won't accept even cruise captain time and you are typed and trained to be in the left seat while the captain is at rest, go figure.

Fratemate

30th Aug 2011, 00:46

Got to agree with TD here. I asked the question in the office yesterday and it is PIC time they want and not PICU/S. In fact the vast majority of the Japanese pilots I've spoken to don't even know what PICU/S is. As we know, they are very black and white, so how can someone claim PIC hours when he is not PIC? We know the answer but that does not compute with the Japanese mind :hmm:

It is true that a guy started the course and then had to leave the Company because he did not have the necessary 100 cross country PIC hours. He'd done the type rating and his shortfall was picked up during his pre-ATPL check ride log book inspection. He'd been flying as a 744 FO for a large Asian carrier, so I rather suspect he had his fair share of cross country flying. However, common sense did not prevail and, because he hadn't specifically stated which hours were cross country and which weren't, he did not qualify for the issue of a JCAB ATPL in the eyes of the AJV management. To give him his due, he went away to the US, got his cross country hours up by bogging around in a Cessna and then re-joined the company, starting again from day one :eek:

What this question does highlight is the disparity between countries when issuing an ICAO ATPL, as required for the job. Some countries will accept PICU/S time for the issue, while others won't. Some countries accept PICU/S in the logbook after the issue of an ATPL, others don't. Some countries don't recognise PICU/S at all. Isn't it nice to see a common standard applied to a common (ICAO) licence :ugh:

bringbackthe80s

30th Aug 2011, 08:46

Since we are talking about it..let's say you are an airline capt. already (so you have the 250 hrs PIC), the PIC time with the airline also counts as xcountry PIC time right?

I'm asking because I didn't understand what you meant Fratemate when you talk about this guy who didn't differentiate which hrs are xcountry and which aren't..I would guess they consider airline time as xcountry time right?

The Dominican

30th Aug 2011, 09:47

In my humble opinion, like FAA "250 hrs as a PIC or as SIC performing the duties of PIC while under the supervision of a PIC" is more practical and reasonable for ATP.
That standard is only really used in the US, as I said before most places (CAA) abroad won't recognize any time that is not the time where you are in charge and responsible (signing the logbook) as PIC, whether you and I agree with it or think that it makes more sense any other way is irrelevant. Also make sure that the time you spent in line training as a captain for an airline (I.O.E. in the US) is placed as dual received and not as PIC time since the PIC is really your check airman (RTC) he is the one signing the book and even if for all practical purposes you are in the left seat, typed in the A/C and performing the captain's duties, it is still not recognized by most CAA's as PIC time.
Making sure that all your times are accurate and separated into the different classifications that they want is the most laborious part of the application process and there will be no way around it, as I remember I spent a few days of accounting in my logbooks getting all these classifications separated before I could send my application but it was worth it because in all the logbook inspections (they are inspected during your initial application, then inspected again during your training) they never came back to me for some clarification as they do with some guys (is not that there was anything wrong with these folks logbooks, it is just that all the boxes need to be ticked) So use caution!:E sorry, just had to throw that in there

bringbackthe80s

30th Aug 2011, 11:06

Flycold with all due respect, if you are arguing this then it means you have yet a lot to learn about Japan:rolleyes:

The Dominican

30th Aug 2011, 11:45

Hello Flycold

You must have misunderstood that I was trying to teach you JCAB's or even ICAO regulatory compliance, or explaining to you the legal definition of PIC (hence the unsolicited resume) I'm not arguing against your point or even saying that complying with one of their minimums by renting a cherokee is productive, what I'm trying to explain to you is from a cultural point of view (and company culture as well) wether I think that somebody has to rent a single engine for three hours just to tick a box is productive or not is irrelevant. I can bring the secretary of transportation of the United States to explain to them what PIC means in the US and that will also be irrelevant. It is like burgerking, they are going to have it their way.

Let us know if you have any other questions

gomets

30th Aug 2011, 13:16

Trying to be as "outside the box" as possible...

I would think if someone really needs to conjure up or justify a mere 250 hrs. PIC time, maybe they aren't quite ready for a 767 international...Not to be a daft prick, but 250 hrs PIC, whether it be piston or turbine, is not really that much time in the first place...In the flying I come from there is no such thing as acting PIC while being monitored as PIC.. Either you have final authority or you don't.

You could have 10,000 hrs piston, 9900 PIC X-country piston. Meet the minimums for FO but are ya really gonna be competative... IMO, a job as a SIC on a 767 is a 5000 turbine 1000turbine PIC type job.... I think spending 5-10 years or so on a smaller jet is at the very least a pre-requisite. If we have to argue the semantics of a few hrs PIC on a Piper, then supply and demand is definitely in favor of the pilots. I don't think we're at that point yet!!:ok:

I know there may be alot of guys in Europe or Asia that are on heavy equipment by 3000 hrs.. It just doesn't happen anymore in the US.

Just my opinion. I'd apply anyways, but argueing whether PIC time as a monitored SIC doesn't hold much weight in the flying world I come from..:hmm:

The Yank

30th Aug 2011, 22:55

flycold,

Dom and the others are only trying to help. With the attitude that you are showing on this thread I would think it would be best if you forget about AJX as you would not last. :=

Fratemate

31st Aug 2011, 00:22

Bringback,

the PIC time with the airline also counts as xcountry PIC time right?

I'm asking because I didn't understand what you meant Fratemate when you talk about this guy who didn't differentiate which hrs are xcountry and which aren't..I would guess they consider airline time as xcountry time right?

Yes, mate, you're correct, all that time will count as cross country. The trouble for the guy in question is that he'd never logged cross country time because it wasn't required in any of his country's documentation. When he came to AJV (as it was then) he mucked around trying to come up with figure but that obviously didn't work. As Mr Dominican has correctly said, in spite of Flycold's rudeness, it is far, far better to get your hours sorted out before applying because they are going to be looked at twice again before you go for your ATPL check.

The cross country time is just silly because, basically, any time outside the circuit is going to be cross country (I can think of only one country that actually defines cross country and I think that is beyond 7nms of the airport). So, when it comes to totting up those hours, all that PIC time spent outside the circuit is going to count.

As for the semantics of PIC versus PICU/S, well the US does it one way, Oz does it another, France does it differently again but all that is irrelevant to the Japanese. They don't recognise PICU/S, so to answer the original question, all PIC time has to be PIC and not U/S.

Fratemate

31st Aug 2011, 00:48

Gomets,

As far as the medical .... I passed a US ARMY flight Physical last year (not the MEPS general physical, but the actual travel to the ARMY base and visit multiple buildings for eye, blood, and physical...took every bit of all day).. I assume the tests are pretty similar? Anyone know if that is true or pretty close?

The first two medicals are the worst and then they relax a bit. The first one will be your screening medical. This is a test to JCAB standards but is actually a Company medical, so does not count as your ATPL Class 1. Once you've done all your training and passed your ATPL check you'll do another medical. Pretty much a repeat of the first one (including EEG, chest xray etc) even though you might have done all that stuff recently but this time it IS for your JCAB Class 1. After that it's a lovely visit to the doc every 6 months but then you don't get EEGs etc done.

The Army medical will be very similar to the JCAB ones. They'll do the normal urine test and take blood for the vampires to look at. They'll do weight and height, work out your BMI and tell you it's too high, no matter what it says. They do seem to be unnecessarily obsessed with eyes, so you'll spend a fair amount of time doing the normal near/far tests, blowing air in your eyes, field of vision tests etc. This will be done by a nurse and then the eye doc will have a closer look at your retinas etc and check you've got nice, healthy peepers. The hearing test is the normal type of pressing the button when you hear the tones. They always do an ECG but there's not too much you can do about that. They managed to find my brain for the EEG, so I reckon anyone can pass it if I can (but you won't do this after the first 2 medicals). Chest Xray is a no-brainer. They tried to do another one of these 6 months after my 2nd one and I told them to poke it. After the normal 'eeeeey' noises they agreed it wasn't really necessary and after a few of my colleagues did the same, it would seem they don't zap you as often any more. After all that it's off to see the Doc for the general prodding, saying 'aahhh' and having your stomach palpated etc. The initial medicals will involve balance tests and there is one Narita doc who likes to do these as well (I think the Tokyo clinic does them each time, too). Normally this will involve marching on the spot with your eyes closed and he checks you don't wander outside the circle. There is another one where you stand up with your eyes closed and then you have to stand on one leg with your arms outstretched. I don't know what the limits are but I'm sure there's a fair bit of hopping around and semi-falling over involved. The Tokyo clinic has a balance plate that you stand on and it can measure your body's inputs to keep you in one spot....far too bloody technical if you ask me! Not all the docs bother with this nonsense but you will get it one your 2 initial checks.

That's it really. In answer to your original question, yes, it is similar to the military medicals where you wander from expert to expert to check your various bits are working. Clearly there's not too much you can do apart from not getting on the piss the night before and not eating too many pies, so your BMI is in limits. While on that subject, JCAB uses 30 as their max. Any more than that and it's stress ECG time on the treadmill, rather than just a normal ECG. The Company uses 28 as their max for employment, so it's probably best to make sure that you're skinny enough to make that :ok:

oldhasbeen

31st Aug 2011, 02:48

why anyone would want to come here is beyond me:(

The Dominican

31st Aug 2011, 03:17

@gomets

Meet the minimums for FO but are ya really gonna be competative... IMO, a job as a SIC on a 767 is a 5000 turbine 1000turbine PIC type job.... I think spending 5-10 years or so on a smaller jet is at the very least a pre-requisite

And I would speculate that ANA agrees with you since that is the lowest level of experience that I have seen on our F/O's, many of them met the DEC minimums but were offered F/O positions instead. Not trying to be discouraging, is just the way it is.

bringbackthe80s

31st Aug 2011, 11:27

cool, thanks Fratemate. So you basically have to divide the hrs yourself before starting.. because on my JAA logbook there is no space to log xcountry hrs as such, it is something I would have to calculate myself..sounds complicated already!!;)

USMCProbe

3rd Sep 2011, 03:31

I have had a couple of European FO's have me sign their logbook (I am not an instructor) and they logged the time as PIC under supervision, so the standard does exist in some other countries as well. BTW this was their personal logbooks, and not the company logbooks for the current job (Vietnam). I don't know anything about JAA regs or their home country licensing requirements.

The Dominican

4th Sep 2011, 06:26

BTW this was their personal logbooks, and not the company logbooks for the current job

Two separate sets of logbooks with different total PIC, times on them, with their respective discrepancies on the SIC times, and different than what the company records have???? Well that deserves its own thread. :D

E165

22nd Oct 2011, 14:10

Well, the guy you guys are talking about getting some more PIC time in a Piper was an ab initio pilot for a major Asian carrier, from what I hear. He had a crap load of SIC hours on the 744 but didn't have the minimum PIC time of whatever they needed (100 hrs.?) due to being an ab initio guy. I think he was a few hours short. And yes, they are that anal about the flight time requirements as well of other things. If you're even a few MINUTES short of minimums, you're "disqualified." And that's just the tip of the iceberg. I could write a dissertation about this place, but I'll just stop here. Good luck everyone.

Jenson Button

24th Oct 2011, 19:30

Ive been looking at this gig for a while and wonder if anyone commutes from Europe. If so do you use stby or the full business ticket return?

Secondly having looked at the different agencies, are they all offering 12 days off WITH the ability to bolt on 2 leave days each month, because some are leaving it a bit vague.

How did you approach detailing 1000's of hours as x-country. Did you sign off each page as a x-country or get your company to write as such in their letter of confirmation wrt to your hours ?

And does anyone know when the next courses are being scheduled?

Cheers

Jb.

The Dominican

25th Oct 2011, 00:56

commutes from Europe. If so do you use stby or the full business ticket return?

I commute to the US but it seems to be the same for most guys as far as the commute goes, it depends on how many sectors, how many daily flight and the time of the year; Busy season, multi sectors, not so many daily choices= confirmed business class. Easy one sector commute, several daily flights, many open seats=ZED tickets
Secondly having looked at the different agencies, are they all offering 12 days off WITH the ability to bolt on 2 leave days each month, because some are leaving it a bit vague.
10 days off, you are able to take the 2 commute days and add 2 vacation days monthly if you wish regardless of what head hunter got you the gig
How did you approach detailing 1000's of hours as x-country. Did you sign off each page as a x-country or get your company to write as such in their letter of confirmation wrt to your hours ?

There is no fast way, I'm afraid you will have to spend some time with your head in your logbooks. Sorry:ugh:
And does anyone know when the next courses are being scheduled?

Don't know really, we get very little feedback of what is going on at the training center but I'll try to find out for you

lowvaeater

2nd Nov 2011, 09:28

According to an agency's website, 250 PIC time with 100 PIC x-country is mandatory.

May I ask what is the definition of x-country in Japan? Most of the countries I know define it as flight over 25nm from origin airport with one landing other than the origin airport.

Regarding to the 250 PIC time, is it really mandatory? If applied to the guy with tons of 744 SIC hours who was short of 100 PIC x-country hours, that would mean he did like 150+ hours of PIC time within 25nm around the airport, which doesn't really make sense.

Many thanks!

ishi59

2nd Nov 2011, 17:09

Heard that they have lost 21 pilots this year. 9 have joined this year, so far only 3 of the 9 have completed training to the line.

not ideal for a company intent on growth!

Fratemate

3rd Nov 2011, 05:41

21?? Where did you get those numbers from? I can get to 12 if I include the 6 over-60 ANA guys (who will obviously be replaced by some more no-freight, no-night, nothing-nasty, 'wonder boys') and a couple of fence-sitters but I reckon 21 is way off the mark.

Heard they may be up to 2 for the Jan course.....that should make everything better :rolleyes:

Jenson Button

3rd Nov 2011, 09:45

The Dom - thanks for your info.

To all the Air Japan guys, has the merger process smoothed out and has your lifestyle become less pained. Having gone through this thread it did seem as though there have been teething problems in merging the cargo and pax operations. In a nutshell have things improved to the point you would still recommend this gig.

Jb

ishi59

4th Nov 2011, 00:59

Jenson

NO! still a looong way to go.

alkor

19th Nov 2011, 10:14

hi,

I see that there is now up to 14 off days in a month for commuting. Are things getting slightly better?

And regarding the upgrade; is that in a contract or they just say this so it attracts more candidates?

Cheers,
A

The Dominican

19th Nov 2011, 10:53

@alkor
Until the company decides to stablish an electronic based pairing and scheduling system that distributes the flying equaly, reduces fatigue and increases productivity, things will not improve.

yes, you are able to take up to 14 days in a row but commuting is on your time.

There is an active upgrade program but there are no guarantees, some folks get bypassed

Conductor

15th Dec 2011, 23:25

Hi all,

I would like to ask a few questions of those currently at AJX. I've read the most recent 20 or so pages of this thread so please forgive me if I have missed something. And no, I'm not just a tyre kicker.

1. Since the merger, is there a fair and equitable distribution of the "good" patterns vs the multi-sector back of the clock freighter ops?

2. Given the ongoing recruitment needs of AJX, is the internal upgrade process being impeded by the lack of crew? In other words, are guys not getting a start at command training because the company can't afford to take them offline as F/Os?

3. Does one get to submit their preference for days off for each coming month and is it a case of take what you are given or is there some success in getting what you ask for?

4. Previous posts indicate that the company pays correctly and on time and doesn't interfere with blocks of time off. Is that still the case?

5. Just to clarify: during initial training where does the limit on family visits come from? I assume that the cost of such airfares is at the pilot's expense anyway so in theory what is to stop a family visiting for less than 90 days then returning shortly after for another visit?

6. What is the typical (if there is such a thing) number of nights that one would be in Japan but not on a pattern and therefore paying for own accomm and expenses?

7. One final Q: has AJX shown any effort to meaningfully address fatigue concerns about rosters since recent posts?

Thanks in advance and thanks to those contributors to this thread who have obviously taken a lot of time to provide good info for those considering the move.(esp: TD, ishi59, and framemate)

jrmyl

16th Dec 2011, 02:16

1. Since the merger, is there a fair and equitable distribution of the "good" patterns vs the multi-sector back of the clock freighter ops? If you are an expat, then mostly. In my experience. There are a few who are getting higher value months with mostly pax flying but those are limited to a handful.

2. Given the ongoing recruitment needs of AJX, is the internal upgrade process being impeded by the lack of crew? In other words, are guys not getting a start at command training because the company can't afford to take them offline as F/Os? I haven't noticed that. It seems that they are still putting people in for upgrade training.

3. Does one get to submit their preference for days off for each coming month and is it a case of take what you are given or is there some success in getting what you ask for?I ask each month for the days off I want and that is what I get. Some months they may ask you to move the days forward or back a couple of days but that is rare.

4. Previous posts indicate that the company pays correctly and on time and doesn't interfere with blocks of time off. Is that still the case?That is still the case.

5. Just to clarify: during initial training where does the limit on family visits come from? I assume that the cost of such airfares is at the pilot's expense anyway so in theory what is to stop a family visiting for less than 90 days then returning shortly after for another visit?the company pays for your spouse to visit twice and kids to visit once. How long they stay is up to you. My wife and kids stayed for 2 weeks the first time and then my wife stayed 10 days the second time. She could have stayed longer but had to get home for the kids. Just up to you really.

6. What is the typical (if there is such a thing) number of nights that one would be in Japan but not on a pattern and therefore paying for own accomm and expenses?I have been averaging about 10 nights per month in Narita.

7. One final Q: has AJX shown any effort to meaningfully address fatigue concerns about rosters since recent posts?They have rearranged some pairings to try and mitigate it but I am not convinced that it will be successful.

Soab

17th Dec 2011, 07:33

I have never applied to any Japanese Airlines, although have the prerequisites.

I just cannot bare the thought of 6-9 months training.

I understand it is 6 months to obtain a JCAB licence. Is that correct.

Why doesnt Japan accept ICAO ATPLs and give a JCAB equivalent.

Whats so special about the JCAB licence.

Im really surprised so many Expat pilots would work in Japan.

Is there any use for the JCAB licence once you leave Japan, can you trade it in for an ICAO, FAA, JAR licence easily, or is it waisted ground study time?.
Just seems pointless spending 6-9 months training just to fly an aircraft Ive already flown as PIC for several thousand hours.

Fratemate

18th Dec 2011, 01:53

This year's prize for pointless posts :hmm:

I have never applied to any Japanese Airlines, although have the prerequisites. Good on ya

I just cannot bare the thought of 6-9 months training. I assume you mean 'bear'. There, there.

I understand it is 6 months to obtain a JCAB licence. Is that correct. It takes about 4 months if you're type rated to get the JCAB ATPL and then a couple more months of line training/OJT (call it what you will)

Why doesnt Japan accept ICAO ATPLs and give a JCAB equivalent. They do. They give you a JCAB ATPL after you have passed the ATPL check, which takes them about 4 months to train you for. Do you really think you could get a JCAB licence after 4 months without already holding an ATPL? Your JCAB licence is issued on the basis that you already hold an ICAO one.

Whats so special about the JCAB licence. It allows you to fly Japanese aircraft and you need that if you're going to fly in Japan.....which you're not.....which makes your post even more pointless

Im really surprised so many Expat pilots would work in Japan. That's nice for you, then.

Is there any use for the JCAB licence once you leave Japan, can you trade it in for an ICAO, FAA, JAR licence easily, or is it waisted ground study time? I assume you mean 'wasted'. Who knows; we all came here with an 'ICAO, FAA, JAR' licence, so why would we want to try and get something we already have. Best ask a Japanese pilot is he's ever converted his JCAB licence to one that is truly worthy..

Just seems pointless spending 6-9 months training just to fly an aircraft Ive already flown as PIC for several thousand hours. No, what's pointless is you telling us how great you are (because, of course, nobody here matches your unparalleled experience :rolleyes:), how you've never applied and your unwarranted opinion on something about which you know very little. Great, you're qualified but you're not going to apply because you consider the training too long. Thanks for letting us know (although we weren't really interested) and have a fantastic time in whatever differing venture you choose to embark upon.

Esprit6969

18th Dec 2011, 03:47

I just cannot bare the thought of 6-9 months training. I assume you mean 'bear'. There, there.

Its the English Police!

Esprit

Fratemate

18th Dec 2011, 05:19

Its the English Police!

Nice missing apostrophe to add a satirical slant to your slur :ok:

Soab

18th Dec 2011, 11:07

Fratemate
This year's prize for pointless posts http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

I have never applied to any Japanese Airlines, although have the prerequisites. Good on ya

I just cannot bare the thought of 6-9 months training. I assume you mean 'bear'. There, there.

I understand it is 6 months to obtain a JCAB licence. Is that correct. It takes about 4 months if you're type rated to get the JCAB ATPL and then a couple more months of line training/OJT (call it what you will)

Why doesnt Japan accept ICAO ATPLs and give a JCAB equivalent. They do. They give you a JCAB ATPL after you have passed the ATPL check, which takes them about 4 months to train you for. Do you really think you could get a JCAB licence after 4 months without already holding an ATPL? Your JCAB licence is issued on the basis that you already hold an ICAO one.

Whats so special about the JCAB licence. It allows you to fly Japanese aircraft and you need that if you're going to fly in Japan.....which you're not.....which makes your post even more pointless

Im really surprised so many Expat pilots would work in Japan. That's nice for you, then.

Is there any use for the JCAB licence once you leave Japan, can you trade it in for an ICAO, FAA, JAR licence easily, or is it waisted ground study time? I assume you mean 'wasted'. Who knows; we all came here with an 'ICAO, FAA, JAR' licence, so why would we want to try and get something we already have. Best ask a Japanese pilot is he's ever converted his JCAB licence to one that is truly worthy..

Just seems pointless spending 6-9 months training just to fly an aircraft Ive already flown as PIC for several thousand hours. No, what's pointless is you telling us how great you are (because, of course, nobody here matches your unparalleled experience :rolleyes:), how you've never applied and your unwarranted opinion on something about which you know very little. Great, you're qualified but you're not going to apply because you consider the training too long. Thanks for letting us know (although we weren't really interested) and have a fantastic time in whatever differing venture you choose to embark upon.

Oh dear, sorry I hit a nerve there. I cannot beer the thought of offending you. Hope you’re enjoying Japan and the 6 months of training to fly an aircraft you were already experienced on was worthwhile. (so 4 months to obtain a JCAB and 2 months line training, Thanks for the info).

The remark about obtaining a licence conversion from JCAB to others was valid. If I obtained a JCAB based on my ICAO, is it easier to obtain a JAA or FAA because of the JCAB. As it must be a better licence than the FAA, ICAO, and JAA.
My previous Asian job gave me a local 'validation' based on my ICAO.

[quote] Fratemate
This year's prize for pointless posts http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

I have never applied to any Japanese Airlines, although have the prerequisites. Good on ya

You caught me out, im b!@&*y arrogant.

They are now advertising for pilots with no experience on type. That obviously means there are few (or no) pilots out there with the previously required experience on type, or pilots willing to work in Japan on their pay and conditions.
Or are there?, is it the months of training required to obtain a JCAB licence thats putting some pilots off applying.
Thus my post putting the question out there.

Im glad I didnt cause an accident flying in or out of Japan on my mere ICAO licence.

So I have achieved the most pointless PPRUNE post of the year award.
Im so proud.

PS: Sorry but I didnt spell check this post.

PPS: Am I the only lazy b@$&%d pilot here that considers 6 months training to fly an aircraft ive already flown, excessive and not worth considering.
My loss I know.

bringbackthe80s

18th Dec 2011, 11:22

Soab

18th Dec 2011, 11:36

soab you are entitled to think whatever you want, in fact you may even be right. The point is why would you come here and post these things in a tread in which people have all done the training you consider useless for the job you don't want??

There are 1300 or so posts on this thread, many asking questions.
I dont believe they are all from pilots who have actually decided to do the JCAB licence to get a job in Japan.

Was the 4 months training to obtain the JCAB licence worthwhile.
Was it really necessary (Rather than validating internationally recognised ICAO, JAR licences) to operate safely for international flights flying out of Japan?

Esprit6969

18th Dec 2011, 11:47

Nice missing apostrophe to add a satirical slant to your slur http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif 18th Dec 2011 04:47

I don't claim to be an English Professor or the National Spelling Bee Champion.

Looks like somebody needs a hobby. Or maybe correcting people's grammatical errors on pprune is the hobby?

bringbackthe80s

18th Dec 2011, 12:42

Was it really necessary (Rather than validating internationally recognised ICAO, JAR licences) to operate safely for international flights flying out of Japan?

The answer is most likely not. But if you start asking these type of questions, and even before you applied (or not applied!), then it means that Japan is for sure not the country for you.
I guess you got all the answers now:ok:

fly744

18th Dec 2011, 14:22

Dear Soab,

Things in aviation are simple:If you don't ""understand"" or you disagree with the ""Japanese way"" then don't apply to work with them... you should be happy to where you are now!

Esprit6969

18th Dec 2011, 17:48

All these errors in grammar! Where is Fratemate when you need him? This thread will keep him busy for awhile.

Floatsnowlonghaul

18th Dec 2011, 19:28

(longtime lurker on this site, and new poster... Greatly appreciate all the info that you current employees have divulged here. Really helps the rest of us try to wrestle with the decision whether to jump or not from our current position... I suspect this job is better than what I'm dealing with at the moment... again: thanks !).

Is anyone commuting from AKL or South Island, NZ?
With ANA not going to AKL, would the 2,000$ travel allowance be your only option then (and not a confirmed C class)?

(a little off topic here...)
Have any commuters (foreign to the USA), managed to gain residency in the USA and commute from there? (i.e. proving that you have income, and don't need a work VISA - just residency). (Something that I'm trying to research at the moment).

Another one:
My wife is from Europe: is it possible to change commuting destinations periodically (in advance) if you need to go to another continent for your home leave?

Thanks in advance !

Fratemate

18th Dec 2011, 23:42

Is anyone commuting from AKL or South Island, NZ?
With ANA not going to AKL, would the 2,000$ travel allowance be your only option then (and not a confirmed C class)? Commuting to NZ is not a snag and, surprisingly :) they've even allowed a few Kiwis to join the AJX gang. When they organise your commuting they'll use ANA if they can. If ANA does not serve that destination, they'll use Star Alliance carriers. After that they'll use others they have lesser agreements with e.g. Qantas. So C Class commuting IS still available, even though ANA don't fly to AKL. I believe Air NZ offer a direct flight NRT-AKL but I also know that sometimes guys route via SYD. That may have something to do with direct flights not being available every day (I don't know the reason for sure) but, if that is the case then C Class is still available; you'd just do something like QF NRT-SYD and then either QF or Air NZ SYD-AKL. Long and short of it is C Class commuting is no problem to NZ.

(a little off topic here...)
Have any commuters (foreign to the USA), managed to gain residency in the USA and commute from there? (i.e. proving that you have income, and don't need a work VISA - just residency). (Something that I'm trying to research at the moment).Can't help on that one :(

Another one:
My wife is from Europe: is it possible to change commuting destinations periodically (in advance) if you need to go to another continent for your home leave? You can register 2 'home' addresses when you join. There are a few guys who have family on different continents and do exactly as you want to do i.e. travel to Europe during your days off, rather than NZ.I believe they were looking into how often you could change your 2nd address but, so far, I haven't heard anything about it and think you can change it quite often. For your case, though, it's not a problem having your NZ address and a European address registered for commuting purposes (and, yes, C Class does apply to both).

Fratemate

19th Dec 2011, 00:36

They are now advertising for pilots with no experience on type. That obviously means there are few (or no) pilots out there with the previously required experience on type, or pilots willing to work in Japan on their pay and conditions.
Or are there?, is it the months of training required to obtain a JCAB licence thats putting some pilots off applying.
Thus my post putting the question out there. They have never required experience on type, so nothing has changed on that front and there is no ground-breaking news in the way the agents are advertising. There are plenty of people who don't want to work in Japan/away from their home country. Likewise, there are guys out there who don't think the pay and conditions are acceptable and, of course, there are those who think the training is too long. All of these are reasons for people not applying but none of us can categorically state exactly why they don't; that's just personal choice. What I can say is that a couple of years ago this job was one of the best going worldwide. Read back through this thread and you'll then see when things started to change for the worse and we put out the word that it is certainly not what it used to be and to consider carefully before applying. We all know the pilot world is small and word got around (as we told the Japanese and the agencies it would). I would suggest it is this 'word' that led to a reduction in applicants, rather than experience on type being required, which it wasn't. The good news is the drying up of applicants forced them into realising things were not good and certainly NOWHERE near where we were just 2 years ago and that they had to do something about it. They have dabbled around the edges and have made some positive changes. They addressed some of the issues but they do have a fair way to go yet. They are burying their heads in the sand regarding exchange rates and just hoping it all goes away; little realising everybody but the US dwellers are getting royally screwed by such a bad US$ rate and that this is affecting the decisions to apply. They are playing at reducing fatigue but they really have little comprehension of a proper scheduling system; not just the technical side of things but because, culturally, they think everything is okay and that we should dedicate our lives to The Company, as they do, little realising we don't give a crap about The Company and that it's just a job, not our reason for being. There are various other aspects of the job they need to improve but I'm not going to bore people further. Needless to say, this doesn't really affect you, Soab, because you're not coming here but there has been no change to their requirements of type experience and your stating that training is too long will not change anything, ever, in the way the Japanese conduct their business

Soab,

Mate, I'm confused by your agenda. You came to this thread, stated you were experienced on the 767 but you'd never apply to join a Japanese airline because the training was too long. You expressed surprise that any 'expats' would do the same and, effectively, told us, in your opinion, the Japanese have got it wrong with their licencing system. Why would you bother giving us the benefit of your perceived wisdom if it's not going to affect you? Have you got genuine questions or are you just here to 'sound off' and tell us what you think (even though you have no actual experience of what you're writing about and none of us actually asked)?

I will always try to answer any questions about AJX that I can and, in the spirit of giving a person the benefit of doubt, I've tried to answer your (semi) question/statement above but would ask that in the future you either ask genuine questions or don't bother posting. I'm sure those people considering AJX are interested in the views (good and bad) of those who have been through the Japanese system, whereas the unwarranted rambling of someone who hasn't and has stated he never will, are just not required i.e. this is not Soab's soapbox and your uninformed opinion will add nothing to the thread, nor help those who come here looking for information, rather than blather.

Soab

19th Dec 2011, 05:08

Fratemate

You are of course right; I didn’t mean to offend anyone who has gone through the lengthy JCAB licence study. Just wanted to get a feel of who was out there that decided not to apply for a Japanese contract because it takes 6 months to be checked to line. (Even if you have flown the aircraft type before).
Perhaps I was waiting for responses from those that had done it to say 'yeah its well worth the effort, great airline, treated very well, pay and time off great, glad I did it', rather than the complaints Ive read about exchange rates, pay, fatigue etc, or others agreeing its over the top spending 4 months to convert to a JCAB licence that is worthless anywhere but Japan. Does it take 4 months to convert an ICAO or JAA licence to an FAA.

It’s an anonymous forum, so don’t see the point in blowing my own trumpet here.

Agree, it appears it was the wrong thread to ask, as there are either those that have done it (and they appear to be offended by my questions and bite back) and wannabes asking questions.
Maybe good for those wanting to get on better equipment, but they are not seeking any already experienced on type.

Enjoy Japan Fratemate, but don’t let it stress you out.

Esprit6969

19th Dec 2011, 13:30

"So C Class commuting IS still available, even though ANA don't fly to AKL"- Fratemate

The proper word is doesn't...

The Dominican

20th Dec 2011, 02:22

The training here is long and repetitive, it is the relentless pursuit of the perfectly executed visual approach and the center hydraulic system failure, In the other hand they put you up in a nice furnished apartment in a trendy part of town, they give you a lot of time off while paying you your entire salary (not some reduced training pay like some other contracts) a lot of the guys bring their family for most of the training duration and I had a great paid vacation with my family, Japan is far better than any place in the ME or the rest of Asia, it is safe, clean and social services that are that of a first world country, making a decision to take a job or not based on the training length is as silly as making it based only on what airplane you will fly.

The reason why you are hearing us complain lately is because we are going through a rough patch right now with the integration of the cargo and passenger flying and the rostering leaves a lot to be desired lately, the economical situation has placed the USD in a position that is a detriment to the guys that live everywhere but the US. We are complaining because this job was simply awesome before the merger and now it is more like some of the other jobs that are available out there, but all in all, including the current instability in the roster, the current USD market value, the training period, I will like to know what is batter out there? Some experts have come along talking about the T&C's here, you tell me where then?

1) As ex pats we work at a first world country and Japan is simply a fantastic place, it is clean, safe and liberal, you are not going to get flogged because you are holding hands with your wife or spit on by a local while you are site seeing. Why don't you tell us about that fantastic place you are based out off.
2) Pay; The situation of the USD a side because there is no way we can control that. Name the better pay out there, or better yet, how much you made this year?
3) Respect of the contract that you signed! We have no issues on that regard, I challenge you to name a single other contract available out there where you are able to make that statement, a single one.
4) Pay on time and correct, I know that there has been some issues with mistakes with the CREW guys that since has been resolved, but no problems with the rest of the contract companies. I will be willing to bet that most people have a lot of headaches on this regard.
5) This is the best commuting contract available by far anywhere, 14 days in a row, the ability to choose your days off, business class commute to any destination you choose.
6) You hear us complaining because that is the pilots nature and we want things to be the way they were before the merger but at the end of the day we work in an organization that has been named amongst the best 10 airlines in the world consistently year after year, we fly well maintained A/C's and we deal with very little issues in terms of MEL's and fuel. And although they may come off a little rough around the edges some times, the vast majority of guys here are great to fly with, most of the time we fly with other ex pats and we have very little issues with animosity here with the locals, that is another thing that is a great problem in other places and makes life on the line very difficult for many ex pats, we have no such issues here.

Why don't you tell us about that wonderful gig of yours, I would like to know what total bliss on this business feels like; Tell us your salary, tell us about your base, about your days off, your commuting conditions, the conditions of those 767's you claim to have thousands of hours on.

729

20th Dec 2011, 10:30

Gents, I regularly log on and see what useful piece of information you guys have put on here for the benefit of people you'll probably never meet - and I really appreciate it. Thanks TD, Fratemate, Ishi59 and all contributors.

But since it is almost Christmas, which even the Japanese vaguely understand, how about we cut Soab some slack and leave this dead horse where it lies.

Separately, does anyone know if the changes to commuting conditions have also brought in any changes to benefits for expats living locally in Japan?

If you live locally will you end up with a pretty poor roster or is everyone the same?

Fratemate

20th Dec 2011, 10:55

Separately, does anyone know if the changes to commuting conditions have also brought in any changes to benefits for expats living locally in Japan? What changes are those, mate? There haven't been any changes to the commuting conditions, so I'm a little confused what you're asking about. If you live in Japan then, clearly, you won't be using the commuting ticket, so you would get to keep the $2000/month but, apart from that, the benefits are the same for all contract pilots, no matter where you live.

If you live locally will you end up with a pretty poor roster or is everyone the same? All the contract pilots are the same. If you live in Japan then there is a bit more flexibility in splitting your days off into smaller blocks throughout the month (if you wish), rather than taking all you days off in one fell swoop. However, as far as the work, trip pairings etc go, everybody is in the same boat and, if you chose not to split your days off and took them all off in one go in Japan, then you'd end up with a roster looking just like everybody else.

729

20th Dec 2011, 11:15

Thanks Fratemate, I thought 14 days commuting was an increase on the previous T&C but I've obviously got it confused so please disregard. Thanks for the reply!

meguro

20th Dec 2011, 11:55

I am reluctantly going to have to differ in opinion with 'the Dominican'. I do not quite understand his profound optimism. ANA have cancelled contacts! ("you 90 days fired....gomen ne.."). It would be more interesting to hear from FO's that have failed the upgrade for spurious reasons. There is no question that other contracts have far more remuneration.
If the Dominian is working at the new AJX, he is in a minority with his view about the terms of our contract.
ANA/X are experiencing serious technical competency issues that threaten the safety of their ongoing operations.
The reality is that more pilots have left than have been recruited (and passed). That is an indistputible fact. What ever euphoric existance the Dominacn enjoys, it aint the same place I am at.

Before coming here, check how much your daily allowance is and run that by an internet search to see how many cups of noodles that gets you!

Finally; to praise the contact and equally lament the fall in the USD is simply delusional. If the USD is not worth anything then we should get a lot more of them, not sit apethically by and write it off as "exchange issues", like it has nothing to do with us!

I almost suspect you are an AJX stooge with a chronic case of Stockholm syndrome.

Can the rest of the disenchanted now speak up?

Fratemate

20th Dec 2011, 12:46

729,

No worries, I just didn't realise what improvements you were talking about but now I do.

The addition of 'commuting days' was, initially, a busted flush because we weren't able to use them to give us any more time at home and the freight guys also lost a day off each month. However, 'they' have seen the error of their ways and now the rosters are, for the most part, constructed so we can take advantage of these days. Remember that 14 includes your vacation days if you choose to use them in that particular month. So, you get 10 days off per month, plus you get 2 commuting days off a month and you also accumulate 2 vacation days per month that you can use at your discretion. I only point this out in case anyone thinks you get 14 plus vacation days.

There is an option where you can waive your commuting days in order that you can give more days to work. This is certainly not in my line of thinking but the basic premise is the Company will endeavour to give you more hours if you don't take the commuting days, therefore you might exceed 75 hours and get overtime. I'd rather have more time at home but each to his own. This would be an option for those living in Japan. They may decide 10 days, plus 2 vac days is sufficient for their needs (if staying in Japan that month) and so they can waive the CDs, possibly exceed the 75 hours and enjoy the fruits of their extra labours. I have no idea if it's worth it as I've never had any overtime in the time I've been here.

Is that the sort of thing you were after?

729

20th Dec 2011, 20:23

Great info thanks Fratemate, that makes sense now. Thanks for your reply.

The Dominican

20th Dec 2011, 23:44

I didn't say that there weren't issues, there are many, specially with the inefficiency of the rostering and yes, the devaluation of the dollar for those that live outside of the United States. But that is not exclusive of this job is it? most of the contracts outthere pay in USD and are going through the same thing, rostering and fatigue problems are not exclusive of this contract either since that is the major complaint that you read about in these pilot boards, sorry if you feel that it is delusional to look at facts without pride nor prejudice, that doesn't mean that I don't forcefully bring those problems to the forefront either and that I don't fill my share of pilot reports about fatigue and that I don't have my fair share of meetings with them when I do one of these ridiculous pairings. I'm just not an angry person, sorry about that

The Dominican

21st Dec 2011, 00:29

the basic premise is the Company will endeavour to give you more hours if you don't take the commuting days, therefore you might exceed 75 hours and get overtime.
Several guys tried this option for the first months after the implementation and did not fly overtime (myself included) Funny how some of the angriest, most vocal ones always seem to fly overtime and get Honolulu and Singapore more often than not. Some people feel perfectly fine doing that at the expense of their colleagues roster, not angry, just stating the facts:rolleyes:

gtseraf

21st Dec 2011, 06:06

Dom, I must agree with Meguro to a certain extent.

AJX was a good deal up till July this year. The merger of the freight and pax operations could have been handled totally differently. I see the attitude of co-operation which existed has been replaced with one of confrontation.

The biggest issue I reckon we have , is the fatiguing nature of the schedules. Some duties are just crazy in the way they are designed plus the combinations of duties adds up to CONSISTENTLY fatiguing schedules.

The obvious threat to safety and personal health with these schedules are a major worry for me.

It is also sad to see that cosmetic changes are made to deal with this. When we point out a fatiguing duty, they change the destinations but keep the same hours, problem solved (??)

Th USD is a big issue here, costs in Japan and at most of our layover cities have increased and the pilots who live outside of the USA have seen a huge erosion of their buying power. Remember, the companies should be paying a premium to get the quality of pilots they are demanding and for the sacrifices on their lifestyles they are are expected to make.

To sit back and say that there is nothing anyone can do about these issues is not the way to deal with it. The shortage of pilots we are experiencing should be motivation enough for them to do something about it.

As far as other aspects of Dom's comments go, he has a point, the a/c are well maintained, it is generally a pleasant environment and the POTENTIAL for this operation to be as good as it was in the past is there.

Whether those who have the power to do so, make the adjustments required to achieve this potential, time will tell.

atpcliff

21st Dec 2011, 10:25

The remark about obtaining a licence conversion from JCAB to others was valid. If I obtained a JCAB based on my ICAO, is it easier to obtain a JAA or FAA because of the JCAB. As it must be a better licence than the FAA, ICAO, and JAA.
My previous Asian job gave me a local 'validation' based on my ICAO.

An FAA license is an ICAO license.
A JAA (European) license is an ICAO license.
A JCAB license is an ICAO license.

A "Validation" is where the local aviation authority allows you to fly on the license you currently have. I had a validation at one point. Normally, you will need to convert your license, to the license of the home country, to fly for extended periods on an aircraft that is licensed in that country.

What they do in Japan is convert whatever license you have to their home country-JCAB-license.

The only license that I know of that helps you get an FAA license is a Canadian one. It is VERY easy to convert from Canada-US and vice versa.

I also found out that the FAA license and documentation is QUITE different than the "standard" international license. For example, a JAA license and a Kenya (KCAA) license are almost identical. If you had a JCAB license, it would be easier to convert to a KCAA license, and I am assuming any ICAO international license, than to convert to a KCAA license. So, if you had a JCAB license, I think it would normally be easier to convert that to any international license than it would to convert from an FAA license to that same foreign country's license.

Good luck!
cliff
RMS

Conductor

22nd Dec 2011, 04:35

Thanks for the answers to my previous post. One more question if I may: During the initial training period, it is possible to travel home at all, even just for a few days?

Thanks.

Fratemate

22nd Dec 2011, 07:36

You'll do your air law, radio tuition/exams during the first week or so. After that it's CBT for the 767 (with some perf stuff etc thrown in), followed by fixed base trainer/fixed base sims/FMS. If you're type-rated you'll obviously do fewer sim sessions and will skip the type-rating test (I know I'm stating the bleedin' obvious). The non-typed guys will do the type-rating check and then some more sims before going for the ATPL check, whereas the typed pilots will just go straight to the ATPL. Immediately following your (successful) ATPL ride you'll do your medical and THEN you will get the first opportunity to go home, usually for about 10 days. Coming back to Japan, you'll then do groundschool for the airports we fly to (don't ask :rolleyes:) and commence your OJT/line training.

During the initial 2 weeks you don't have any time to yourself because you'll be studying for the exams and attending the classes. Likewise, during CBT etc there's really no time. You will find that during the sims you'll often have a couple of days off but it won't give you time to get to Oz and back, the Company would likely frown on it because 'maybe you are not showing dedication', there will be the inevitable visa problems (because the Japanese make Australia look like amateurs when it comes to paperwork for the sake of paperwork) and you'll be forking out a fair few $$s to get a couple of hours Downunder. To be honest, it's not going to happen and you'd have to accept the fact that seeing your wife/kids will be during the visiting hours they pay the flights for......unless you're single, in which case your other half can stay for as long as their tourist visas are valid.

Jenson Button

22nd Dec 2011, 07:41

Is there a bond and if so how much is it ?

Jb

Fratemate

22nd Dec 2011, 08:07

No bond :)

jrmyl

22nd Dec 2011, 10:12

To add to the above by fratemate, you may be allowed to go home during the training. During our course, we had approximately a week and a half off prior to our systems course. Some of the guys who had pass benefits on their previous airline went home for that time. Of course it is on your own and if you don't make it back I would expect you will be looking for a new job somewhere. :hmm:

Esprit6969

22nd Dec 2011, 14:51

Avoid Air Japan unless you are desperate and need to get recurrent. The J's took what was a fairly good environment and destroyed it because they thought they could reinvent the wheel. Feel free to sign on if you enjoy....

1. Being constantly fatigued/having your circadium rhythms messed with
2. Working for a dishonorable/hipocritical management team
3. Flying with anal retentive J's who can recite the entire OM yet know nothing about flying with common sense or logic
4. If your an FO planning on upgrading...don't count on it. We have seen MANY qualified and deserving candidates get shut down for silly reasons (not knowing door codes, not having majesty, personality issues-you know important reasons)
5. Following silly rules that do nothing to enhance safety

For the most part the majority of the Western Pilots are a joy to fly with, there are a couple Aussie checkers who are d-bags who go out of their way to make the job more difficult than it really is. Guys that massage their schedules at the expense of their fellow comrades. I guess every airline has these types though.

Its a shame to see what has happened here. This place has so much potential to be one of the best jobs out there, but I can no longer reccommend it to anybody.

Conductor

23rd Dec 2011, 06:25

The Dominican

23rd Dec 2011, 14:01

Thanks for all your responses and input guys. I've been working through this process for a while but have come to a decision now. Maybe I'll see you around in the future but it won't be just yet. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

Stay safe.
Have a great holiday season Conductor, let us know if you find bliss so that I can fill out an app.

Merry Christmas to everyone and best regards from Stockholm:E

galdian

24th Dec 2011, 09:18

So Dom - now overseas bases, obviously Stockholm as you mentioned, what are the next exotic bases??

You know - knock them all you want but kudos when due, management of ANA - AJV/X/??...whatever it is today, well done :ok::ok::ok:

Should do something to improve morale! :ok::ok::ok:

Oh...you wern't alluding to the "syndrome"...were you?? ;)

Best wishes to all "hostages and inmates", roll on 2012.

Esprit6969

24th Dec 2011, 17:10

The floodgates have opened, many are leaving or at least looking to leave.

AIR JAPAN sucks...

Their new motto should be "But we are better than China".

Theres a reason why more have left than they have been able to hire. And not all of it has to do with the JCAB.

Testingtesting

25th Dec 2011, 19:45

Oh good....I'm glad I my application is being processed then! :(

The Dominican

26th Dec 2011, 13:42

Sometimes you have to wonder where would this company be without some of you guys superior certification and experience shooting VOR approaches into some one runway regional airport, the emperor himself should honor you while the rest of us gather around chanting "We are not worthy":D

Great first post compadre, I look forward to an endless stream of entertainment coming from ya!:ok:

Fratemate

27th Dec 2011, 04:50

Got to agree, TD; Mr Jardini's post was one of the most amusing I've read in some time. Even though a good deal of us have JAR ATPLs, I still think we are not worthy. Likewise, even though many of us have flown from the most dodgy airfields in PNG, Africa, South America etc and have taken 737s and 757s into 1400/1500m airports, we definitely are not up to handling the dreaded 1830m of BFS, nor the lack of terrain and excellent European ATC system that exists on most of Ryanair's route structure.

He's right, though, the Japanese should be bowing and scraping before us (especially if you've managed to squeeze into St Etienne, at only 2300m long). In fact, there should be no selection procedure at all. Instead they should re-write their requirements and offer immediate employment on a new 'special pilot' payscale. This will, however, only be available to those for whom the Japanese should be especially grateful i.e. the chosen few who can handle the beast that is the 737 and who are able to employ their superior piloting skills to land and pull the thing up in only the 2255m available at La Rochelle.

Yep, I feel pretty stupid now, having undergone the normal selection process and training that all my colleagues have done. I should have realised the Japanese should have rolled out the 'red carpet' for me. I'll ask our ex-Ryanair pilots if RYR did the same for them because it certainly sounds like the modus operandi from Mr Jardini's employer :ok:

captainng

30th Dec 2011, 23:02

so where do you night stop with AJX and how many hours at each place.
thanks for the info

NG

The Dominican

31st Dec 2011, 00:35

The freighter ops (about 85 percent of your monthly roster) Hong Kong, Bangkok, Seoul, Taipei, Sanghai, that is from Narita, Haneda and Kansai, it usually includes a 2 to 4 hour sit on the sorting station in Okinawa. The layover is usually from 12 or 24 hours depending on the trip, the passenger operation is those destinations above plus Honolulu, Vietnam and Singapore with the same layover time, lately they have been mixing cargo and passenger trips where you do one sector going out on a cargo trip and you will be bringing back a passenger flight. Constant changes from day trips to night trips with only 24 hours in between

oldhasbeen

31st Dec 2011, 22:43

We don't do "night stops"..we fly all night ( interrupted by a couple of restfull hours in the Naha cell bloke) and then ,according to the Japanese, we are able to get 9 hours of sleep in the middle of the day at some crap, noisy hotel somewhere. We then sign on again at 2200 and do it all again..for 4 f@#$%g nights in a row. Yea, life's a gem here!:mad:

Jerry Lee

4th Jan 2012, 23:08

Will the pilots working for ANA's subsidiaries have a chanche to get in the main company All Nippon Airways after the experience in the subsidiary they have been working at?

Jerry Lee

4th Jan 2012, 23:08

Will the pilots working for ANA's subsidiaries have a chanche to get in the main company All Nippon Airways after the experience in the subsidiary they have been working at?

I'm just curios, that's it!

Fratemate

4th Jan 2012, 23:30

The short answer is no. AJX pilots are employed by a contract agency and not by ANA itself. Yes, we've done their training courses and have the same qualifications as the mainline pilots but there would be a host of challenges to overcome, not least the alien registration bureaucracy versus right to live and work in Japan, ANA union, residency etc etc. It would all be far too difficult for the Japanese and, speaking for myself, I wouldn't bother. Working in Japan is one thing but living AND working there would be quite another :ooh:

Jerry Lee

4th Jan 2012, 23:55

But in the case that an expat pilot gets married to a japanese woman and obtain the residence, may he have any chanche?

I'd like to repeat that I'm just curios - I don't even have a PPL at the moment.

LindbergB767

5th Jan 2012, 02:08

bringbackthe80s

5th Jan 2012, 08:16

No chance at all
ANA as well as Japan Airlines hire only cadets that they train from the beginning
Even if you are Japanese and you did your training in America (exemple) and you have 3000 hours ,ANA and Japan Airlines WILL not hire you
As a Japanese in that case you may be hired by Skymark. Air Do, Skynet ect ect

One thing I learnt, especially in this business, is never say never! Also considering that the aviation scene will change drastically in the next few years with all these LCC starting.

But it's true, as it is right now, no chance.

cxa340so

24th Jan 2012, 08:14

I have been looking at this gig for years now and frankly some of you are acting like spoiled little brats.

I know what it is like to have your contract changed and for conditions to erode. This seems the trend in Aviation over the last 10 years. I GET IT, because I have lived and worked in Asia for years and they try this crap here. Those amongst you who are acting like little babies need to wake up and smell the roses. There are not many jobs in aviation as good as this.

YES you can earn more money in China or maybe India, or if your lucky enough to have been hired by a major or work for Cathay or Dragonair on their A or B scale. But if you looking for a reasonable paying job with nearly 2 weeks each month in your home country almost anywhere in the world with a business class commute PAID FOR BY THE COMPANY; then I challenge you to find a better contract. Then post your results here for all to see.

I do not believe there is a commuting contract anywhere in the world that has this good balance of pay/commute/conditions/country(Japan). If there is I would like to know about it. If there was the whinging skygods on this thread would have used their superior skills and moved on.

Most of us here could live in India or Indonesia or China and earn 16-18K a month and commute 6 weeks on on 2 off, or similar, but we choose not to and there is a reason for that. Those countries or companies are terrible to work for. Either maintenance, contract changes whenever they please, smoking in the cockpit, them holding your passport so you cant leave the country on days off, pay-cuts of up to 30% when a financial crisis hits and you can take it or leave it, inexperienced and poorly trained F/O's trying to kill you every chance they get (or writing reports to the Chief Pilot buddy to get you fired), not to mention some companies total disregard for duty-time and flight time limitations; and the endless list of other crap that goes on.

If your main gripe is fatigue, quit and get a job in your home country flying a job that gets you home every night for supper. Don't like the Asian mentality?...then leave. This is their train set, and generally they cant "think outside the box" like us. You can not dictate to them. Supply and demand. You hate the place so much... Leave. Go to the "grass is greener" job you seem to think exists.

As I said grow up first, and then smell the roses.

Thank you to all for the information, it is much appreciated by all.
p.s I'm not interested in any free "spell or grammar check" from the Legendary Spelling Police. So don't waste your time correcting my intentional errors. :-)

meguro

24th Jan 2012, 09:52

I accept all the points in the previous post, they are concise and relevant. Our worldly colleague makes points about supply and demand.
My only answer is; why are AJX losing more than they can recruit? Why are pilots walking out on a daily basis? If our esteemed colleague thinks it's so good, come on over! I would love to read his spin on asian culture after a few months. Anyone who is prepared to lump the asian cultures together doesn't know a lot about Japan. As I have said in previous posts; come on over, but bring a lifesaver.

Gambate de kudasai

milehigh737

24th Jan 2012, 20:03

So.. I've been lurking around this thread for quite some time now. And despite the last few pages reporting deteriorating conditions I still think this job sounds pretty good. This still after reading a post with the words "Air Japan sucks" printed in over-sized capital letters ;)

So... am I completely wrong? Missing something? Have I lost my bearings because I'm on my tenth year flying for an un-named major European low-cost carrier operating 737-800s? (okay, take a guess which one...)

All my friends leave for operators in the Middle East but that lifestyle (ME society and roster) doesn't appeal to me.

Any advice? Could someone please point out exactly what makes people leave Air Japan now. (and what place better are they going?) It's not entirely clear.

I've got my application ready....

Thanks!

Martin VanNostrum

24th Jan 2012, 23:50

I have been here from the start-up of Air Japan. Here is my take:

1. Various management decisions have been unpopular such as changing the contract conditions during the contract.
2. However they always seem to add another extra onto the allowances a little later which covers the earlier loss.
3. My overall pay has gone up each year I have been here.
4. The main gripe is the roster; but some months mine is ok some months it is not. Overall it's ok.
5. Sometimes one gets a sequence that is tiring, with back to back nights. However it only happens every couple of months for a few days in a row.
6. Business class confirmed travel home is terrific. This was bought in, not at the end of contracts, but during the contracts. It is very, very generous.
7. For First Officers the chance to upgrade to a widebody command within 3-4 years is unheard of in the contract world. Yes some don't make it; but some don't make it in all airlines.
8. Initial training is long taking 6-7 months. Everyone knows this before coming. If you have a problem with that, don't apply.
9. There is no perfect flying job out there; they all have their plus and minus points. Here I think the plus points outweigh the couple of negative points. It's up to all adults to make their own decision before coming here.
10. I have had some bad days but many more good days; and I am still here after +10 years.:ok::ok:

cxa340so

25th Jan 2012, 02:13

supply and demand.
My only answer is; why are AJX losing more than they can recruit? Why are pilots walking out on a daily basis? That is not your concern unless your in the recruiting department. If the company feels the pain of losing too many pilots they will change the conditions; all you need to worry about is if the conditions are too hard to take... Leave. There are other factors in play also. Airlines hiring all over the world, and most expats usually try to get back home when the opportunity arises. No matter where you live there is no place like home.

Anyone who is prepared to lump the asian cultures together doesn't know a lot about Japan. I have flown into and out of Japan for the last decade and I know that Asian countries are different. Japan is one of, if not THE best place to operate into and out of. Singapore and Hong Kong come close but then the other negatives of Chinese and Singaporean culture and lies need to be considered.

Nothings perfect in Aviation any more, either make the most out of a bad situation or keep chasing rainbows your whole life. I see no one has come up with the name of a better contract than this yet???

WJAPilot

25th Jan 2012, 02:36

There is reference to a confirmed Business class commute - I thought it was simply a 2000 a month allowance being offered.
Has this changed - I am referring to the current PARC contract.

Regards
WJP

cxa340so

25th Jan 2012, 02:41

Business class commute. If you choose not to take that you have option of taking the cash. One or the other.

Martin VanNostrum

25th Jan 2012, 02:45

Each month take the offered confirmed business class travel to your home base or $2000 and do your own thing. ZED, buy your own ticket, don't travel; it's up to you.

WJAPilot

25th Jan 2012, 03:37

Got it - I see the reference to the c fare now.
Much appreciated.

Any Canadians online doing this contract and commuting from Canada.
Would be interested in the tax info your dealing with.

WJP

Fratemate

25th Jan 2012, 04:19

My only answer is; why are AJX losing more than they can recruit? Why are pilots walking out on a daily basis?

That is not your concern unless your in the recruiting department. If the company feels the pain of losing too many pilots they will change the conditions

The primary reason for the unrest in AJX is rostering. Because of that unrest some people choose to move elsewhere and they are not replaced. Because they are not replaced the rostering gets worse. QED: It is his concern and not just a problem for the 'recruiting department'. As for statement that they'll change the conditions; that proves you know absolutely nothing about AJX's lack of ability in the scheduling department and does absolutely nothing to assert your pedigree and our reason for listening to anything you have to say.

"If you don't like it, leave" says to me (a)you have no idea of collective bargaining/negotiation to improve working conditions to advantage both the employer and employees (b)you have learnt such puerile phrases from idiotic management who can't do their job properly (i.e. those in China and the Middle East who always come up with the same self-righteous nonsense) (c)you have aspirations towards joining the same, so you can use your silly phrases and lack of negotiating skills and (d)you should stay away from AJX. While you're at it, stop giving advice about things you know nothing about; "I've visited Japan a LOT of times, so I know what I'm talking about" :rolleyes:

Talon1

25th Jan 2012, 15:36

I've also been in and out of this thread several times and it does seem like a good contract if you can get it. Thanks to all the guys for some really valuable gen! So, just another question...(Sorry if I've missed it in the previous thousand threads). Regarding the "Command jet type rating", I meet the 1000 hrs jet time requirement but it is all FO jet time and I have Co-Pilot 737 rating on my licence, does this mean I can not apply unless I have PIC jet time even for the FO position.

The Dominican

25th Jan 2012, 15:44

Hello Talon

No, what that means is that you require a P1 type rating (no SIC type like in the US) but a command type rating, the 1,000 hours are not required To be PIC as part of the minimums to apply. Do you have another commercial jet type rating besides the 737 SIC? That one they will not take.

milehigh737

25th Jan 2012, 16:11

Martin VanNostrum and others, thanks for the info!

meguro

26th Jan 2012, 02:37

Just to labor on a basic point; the contract may appear ok, it may suit you, the contract agencies are staggeringly misleading about its realities and always have been.
As was done before, if ANA think they can get away with cancelling it and instituting less conditions, they'll do it in a heat beat.
What you may be signing is ultimately meaningless, because ANA only apply it when it suits.

It's a good job if you don't have one, but ANA's scruples have left them exposed to the market, because good crews are now more ambivalent than before about joining because of mistrust and dishonestly on the part of ANA.

I think some ppruners with some experience or knowledge of the upgrade program should follow my post, there are some incredible stories. :ugh:

Esprit6969

26th Jan 2012, 04:32

Concerning upgrades, there have been several highly qualified pilots get shot down over bogus reasons. One guy for not having "majesty" whatever the f that means. One guy forgot the security code for the doors to Dispatch in Okinawa. One guy cuz he was the quite type, yet a very good pilot. Another denied because he spoke up when the check airman tried to land during a microburst. One guy had 5 good observations yet it was his first command. So the promise of a quick upgrade isn't entirely accurate. It is predetermined whether you will pass before the evaluation process.

Talon1

26th Jan 2012, 07:04

Hi Dominican

Unfortunately not, plenty of jet time but all P2 rating. I have not heard of a P1 or command type rating on a jet for an FO? Then again I'm not exactly current on jets and it's been a few years since I've flown them. Are all jet type ratings PIC these days even for FO's?

The Dominican

26th Jan 2012, 10:13

Hello Talon

An SIC type is something that was put in place in the US for the airlines to get away with meeting ICAO international standards that dictated that both crew members needed to be typed, so the FAA came up with the cheaper alternative of the SIC type but most airlines abroad (if not all) issue full command type ratings to all their crew members since their CAA's don't recognize the SIC type, that is why they require a command type rating because the JCAB will issue the license validation based on that. Sorry but a command type rating is required.

Now back to the regular programming.:rolleyes:

captainng

26th Jan 2012, 16:38

Hi all

I am looking at this job to get closer to home but i have high ldl cholestrol level(6.0) has anyone in ajx on lipids or will they not touch you with high cholestrol. i am 36 non smoker and very fit. any help appreciated

NG

WJAPilot

27th Jan 2012, 04:27

Transport Canada does not issue "command ratings" just type ratings....How other Than a log book or perhaps company check ride reports does one prove ones command - so to speak?

Wjp

The Dominican

27th Jan 2012, 04:43

Sorry for my poor choice of words WJA, I didn't mean to imply that it was actually called command type rating, it is just plain type rating as you pointed out, my post was more to illustrate the difference for Talon that is used to the concept of an SIC type rating and no one else uses that except the US (that I'm aware of)

@captainng

I don't think that we will be able to answer that question, sorry. I would suggest that you try the contract agency directly to see if they have the parameters that the JCAB requires on their initial medical

WJAPilot

27th Jan 2012, 05:57

No it wasn't a poor choice of words,

I have seen the reference to command rating many times - sometimes even asking for proof of it...

It was a serious question - do other countries distinguish between the two actually on the license?

WJP

big white bird

27th Jan 2012, 13:41

some good replies to all who are asking

shame about that effervescent little knoll over in hongkong

second officer, are we

that's a shame, as you are clearly command material

like i said in my pm to you buddy, get back in the rat hole you crawled out of

big white bird

27th Jan 2012, 13:42

hey meguro, how you doing

will be down your way soon

email me, bitch

Conductor

28th Jan 2012, 05:00

It was a serious question - do other countries distinguish between the two actually on the license?

I have an Oz ATPL with two jet endorsements. One is a Command Endorsement and the other is a co-pilot one.

cxa340so

28th Jan 2012, 13:00

Big White Bird. Your a real nice guy.:confused: I thought my opinions were valid. Have a nice day. Thanks for the PM.
ajx thread
**** you, asshole

go back to your little hole and **** right off

ishi59

29th Jan 2012, 00:47

It's interesting to see that the more positive posts are generally from those outside looking IN, while the more negative ones are from those IN the system looking out.

Sure, the grass may be greener but it sure has become a lot more BROWN in AJX since the merged operations began.

A lot of the dissatisfaction in the operation is probably due to the fact that things have changed for the worse recently. Two happy groups of pilots were lumped into 1 group and this group is now generally unhappy.

seagul

29th Jan 2012, 09:06

I Thought cx had some valid points , anyway he's entitled to his opinion. BWB you sound like a fool:=

E165

29th Jan 2012, 09:44

I LOVE AIR JAPAN!!!:rolleyes:
It's great if you don't mind being literally "fatigued" the whole time you are here in Japan, with constant, never-ending schedule changes. Never mind that pass rate for the upgrade program last year was barely 50% - mostly for bogus reasons. In general, with a few exceptions of course, your outcome is already decided before you even start the process.

The conditions and schedules haven't gotten any better yet - at least for me - just worse. Maybe due to lack of manpower or other reasons; who knows? Or the schedulers just don't like me. Every company has its positives and negatives. The reason some guys leave here is, well, because the negatives outweigh the positives for them. Good on those with more positives than negatives. Can't blame on anyone who is content with this place. What suits one person definitely won't suit the next - especially here. It ain't suiting me very well at the moment though.

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth...

NoodleAir

5th Feb 2012, 11:49

Esprit6969

5th Feb 2012, 13:52

Noodleair,

Is the Home Depot not hiring? IMHO that is by far a better opportunity.:-) Well..you've been warned, what once was a pretty decent job has turned to sheet. All the contracts through the various agencies are the same. I would not use CReW however, as they are in bed with ANA and will not lookout for your best interests. Come to think of it, I guess none of them will.

The Dominican

5th Feb 2012, 14:17

Any of you guys flying for Air Japan, how many expat pilots are flying there?
Nationalities?
I am considering applying for their post because of the Honolulu commuting, so would be nice to know these details.
Also, any direct contact info for the hiring? Or should everyone go through Parc?
Thanks in advance

Our pilot group is composed by Aussies and Kiwis (our largest pilot group) guys from the US. (now our second largest and the one with the most attrition) pilots from several countries within the EU that added together form our third group, then a handful of guys from Latin America, Asia, the former eastern block and literally a couple of Japanese contract pilots. Management pilots are all retired or active mainline ANA pilots.

There is no way to apply directly, you must go with an agency, PARC, CREW, IAC global. The contract is basically the same for all 3 but there are a few differences. CREW has better medical insurance for guys living in the US, PARC in the other hand has better unemployment insurance and a bit more organized for what I gather from the guys that are with CREW, but PARC although I think service wise is better, their medical insurance in the US leaves a lot to be desired.

alkor

5th Feb 2012, 16:47

hi,

How many FOs are needed at AJX?

Any info about longreach aviation recruiter?

Cheers,
a

jrmyl

5th Feb 2012, 20:25

AJX's fleet is comprised of ANA airplanes. We do not have our own aircraft. We use ANA planes to fly the flights that ANA gives to us. There are only four flights that we use the Air Japan call sign on, to/from Incheon and to/from Singapore. All others we use All Nippon. The latest that I have heard is that we are losing flights due to not having enough pilots to fly them. The BKK passenger flight is one example.

As far as Europeans that are here, I know of at least one Italian and another pilot that lives in Italy. Various other nationalities from Europe as well.

To address which agency is the best, I have no idea. I am US based and am through Crew. I have no major complaints with them now that I am working there. During the application process I have heard of some people waiting for long periods of time to hear from them. I get paid on time every time and the pay is correct. When I email the office I get an answer within a day. When my wife had to get ahold of me in an emergency they went out of their way to help her. So no real complaints from me regarding Crew.

NoodleAir

5th Feb 2012, 21:10

Is that GPSCREW or other?

The Dominican

5th Feb 2012, 21:36

@NoddleAir
That is Crew Resources Worldwide based in HNL.

As far as the commute goes it seems that the rule of thumb is the same regardless of where to commute to, easy one sector commutes with many options daily=ZED tickets, more than one sector with not too many daily flights=business class and busy holiday season (christmas, golden week, that sort of thing)=business class.

@alkor

I don't think that longreach has carried this contract very long so I don't know anybody that has been hired through them, that is not to say that there aren't any, I just haven't heard about it. What agency are you with is just not a topic that comes up at cruise, sorry.

jrmyl

7th Feb 2012, 02:00

If you give 90 days notice on the Crew contract there is no penalty. Shorter than that and you pay a penalty. Not sure what it is as I don't have my contract with me here in the hotel.

Dom should know about the Parc contract.

Esprit6969

7th Feb 2012, 02:32

To break the contract (apparently it costs them nothing to do it) it will cost you 15k. Unless you give them 90 days notice. Many people have left without the 90 days notice with no reprocussions. Just give them the 90 days and call in sick to get around it.

WJAPilot

7th Feb 2012, 02:41

90 days no penalty ... Even after a type rating is provided?Assuming you were accepted NTR and then type rated.

It's not my intention to do so I was just curious what would happen should one have a family emergency etc... That would otherwise affect the ability of one to complete the contract.

WJP

Fratemate

7th Feb 2012, 04:47

I know it's stating the obvious, but you'll lose your completion bonus, in total, as well. You do not get anything for the time served if you don't complete the contract.

In the case of family emergencies etc, then I'm sure it'll come down to you, the agency and AJX to discuss it and agree mutual terms. They are not totally unfeeling robots (just robots :)) and they have been flexible in the past for unavoidable situations such as you suggest. I feel confident they'd waive certain requirements if these things arose. Don't expect to keep the completion bonus though.

Captain_Said

8th Feb 2012, 09:12

Are there any pilots from Russia ?? I have a problems with calculating cross country hours !!
can somebody help ?

oldhasbeen

9th Feb 2012, 03:13

if there aren't ,somebodies been pulling the wool over the yanks eyes for 50 years:p

PoinDextir

10th Feb 2012, 17:47

Have to go with the majority on this. This place has gone downhill so fast, the momentum has become unstoppable. Almost all of those pilots here who have options have exercised those or are about to. The USA furloughed Major Airline guys will all be gone within the next 6 -10 months. The Aussies are all looking to go back closer to home and the European guys are looking at other contracts as well. Those who chose to stay are doing so because they have NO other option a this time. This job will put all of us into an early grave with the schedules that are being flown. I've seen guys go from looking their age to looking 10 years older within an 18 month period of time. This is simply put - suicide. If the schedules don't kill you, making a mistake while incredibly fatigued at 3am will. It is only a matter of time... Why do most of us still put up with this crap - MONEY. The money is good. Plain and simple, but it does come at a cost.

How much is your life worth? I'm not hanging out much longer to find out.
All those left will be flying even more cargo as myself and others hit the road later this summer.

-DEX

Martin VanNostrum

10th Feb 2012, 21:24

Yes sometimes the monthly rosters are a little hard with the night flights. But most airlines flying international fly also at night. Yes the money is not bad, and gets better each year. Where else in the contract world do you get the chance of a wide body command after 3-4 years? Do you have to put in the work to prove you are entitled to it? Yes. Do some people fail? Yes. Do the majority make it? Yes. If you have a good job with prospects in your own country then why not stay. If not, this is pretty good. It's what you make of it. Lots of talk of people leaving in masses to return to nirvana but they are still here. Again it's what you make of it.

The Dominican

11th Feb 2012, 03:05

Those who chose to stay are doing so because they have NO other option a this time.
Well, I gues I'm the exception to this rule, as my contract was coming up I did some exploratory applications to see what was out there, I spoke to other guys working those contracts and as much as our QOL has decreased since the merger, I found that in other contracts out there (specifically 777 gigs) had the same type of flying that we are doing now and the commuting conditions were substandard (6 on 2 of type of schedules) they are flying a LOT more than we are with constant changes to their rosters, the only place I found that had somewhat good commuting conditions is KAL, and the QOL is worst there than it is here by a factor of 10, not withstanding that the pay is also lower, I think that saying that there aren't any other options out there is a gross understatement because there are a lot of places hiring right now but for what I have seen it is more of the same that we are experiencing here. I don't think that there is any doubt that as an ex pat, one would look for an eventual opportunity to go back to your soil regardless of how good or bad your working conditions may be.

blacksmoke

12th Feb 2012, 01:18

Been having a look at this again, but I have a question for the Australians there. How does the salary work out once Japanese and Australian taxes have been taken out? What's an average after tax pay packet? I realise everyone's circumstances are different, but just rough figures would be helpful.

pigdriver

12th Feb 2012, 01:26

I think you will find most ozzies with air japan are not paying taxes anywhere!!
With the dollar as strong as it currently is they can't afford to pay tax as well.....
When the taxman finally catches up with these guys ( and he will) it will be very expensive....

The Dominican

12th Feb 2012, 01:39

This is a commuting contract and there is no recidency in Japan, therefore you have no tax liability locally, each contracted pilot is responsible for the taxes in their own country.

737lpa

13th Feb 2012, 02:07

Hello to all the pro's that have been commited to this post thru the years (Dominicano, Fratemate, Martin Vannostrum, crj,...), sorting out the inside of this gig.

I considered this job a couple of years ago but backed out at the last minute and did not follow up to not waste my bullets. Now I'm on the lookout again (I can't believe I've been in RYR for 8 years now:()

I've read the ups and downs you guys went thru with the merger. Also saw the 2 extra commuting days which is good news. Still think the money is good. My only fear is going thru the 7-8 month training to then fail it, or be offered an F/O position.

What do you guys think of the options nowdays for a RYR driver with 10,000 TT / 5,000 PIC on the B738 to get a DEC?

Parc seems excited but I don't really know how the recruitment drive and/or the need is at the moment for Captains.

Good to hear from all of you's.:)

PoinDextir

13th Feb 2012, 19:18

Dear 737lpa,

The reason we are so excited to have you join as a Direct Entry Captain is because the last 3 DEC's that joined AJX are all unemployed now. Every SINLGE one of them FAILED the training. They were each unceremoniously FIRED and gave up good jobs to start at this wonderful airline. If you would like to give up 9 months of your life, leave a good paying job for an ****ty one, then PROBABLY be FIRED for FAILING training, please continue the application process. Good luck.

Parc Aviation Management

To all you thinking of coming here - these are the FACTS!

The Dominican

14th Feb 2012, 01:28

They continue to hire DEC's due to the fact that we have a deficit to be able to cover the current flying (little alone take any new flying) although we are fat on captains (kind to think of it, we have always been fat on captains) and the priority is to hire F/O's they will hire DEC when a suitable applicant comes around, there are two DEC's on the latest class. The highest attrition is on F/O's with guys from the US being the majority in search of nirvana.:}

Fratemate

14th Feb 2012, 01:48

737lpa,

If you apply you will apply as a DEC and they will accept that application because you are qualified as such. You will train and 'test' as a DEC. I have not heard of any DEC being offered FO, in the pretty unlikely event of not getting through.

Given your qualifications, I would think it very likely you would pass the course. Although not absolute (and there have been some quite big surprises), the ones who are not successful are normally those that cannot just shut their mouths about what they've done before and just pretend the Japanese way of doing things is great :roll eyes: We all know it's not and we all know there are far better ways of operating but, at the end of the day, it's their train set and so you just keep your head down and say 'thank you' when you're told a complete load of crap by one of the Japanese instructors. It's all a game and all you've got to do is play it by their rules for 6 or 7 months. Once you're on the line you'll find it is a LOT more relaxed and, for the most part, like any other airline you've ever flown for......but without the 64 sectors per day of RYR ;)

As Mr Dominican says; they are still short of pilots and will recruit you as a DEP. The agencies are sometimes quite surprised because they find what they think are very suitable applicants but, for reasons only known to themselves, AJX do not even put them through the selection process. With this in mind, if you apply and are asked to attend the interview then there's a good chance you're already a LONG way to getting the job.

Good luck and let us know how you get along.

737lpa

14th Feb 2012, 14:18

Thank you both for the input.

I'm gonna start filling out the application and sorting out my x-country hours :ugh:

I'll get back to u as the process unwinds.

RGRDS

737lpa

15th Feb 2012, 00:35

Gents,

Are most of you still choosing the Excel Narita hotel as the main option for your local nights, or has the crowd moved to a different one?

The Dominican

15th Feb 2012, 05:34

The Excel hotel is still the main choice for the ones that have chosen the hotel route because of the price mainly but also because they will store your bags and regular transportation to the airport and to town (Narita) but many pilots have apartments now.

737lpa

15th Feb 2012, 23:01

"The reason we are so excited to have you join as a Direct Entry Captain is because the last 3 DEC's that joined AJX are all unemployed now."

I understand that this job has that bit of a gamble, but I think I could come back to RYR after a year with my head down, should I fail the training, and get my job back. I've been here long enough for that and those irishmen can always use a known troubleless driver like me. It's not like I plan to slam the door on the way out.

Besides, if I fail, I would have still gotten paid for 9 months, with hotel paid for, and have the chance to experience Japan and their ways, not to mention the SIM experience and training which will definetely help me on my next hunting spree.

What I don't understand that much though, is why are you "so excited" about seeing 3 people go down the drain...:confused:

I can only think that maybe some of you who are inside think that by not getting people to apply, management would struggle somewhat and improve terms, which I can sympathize with, although everyone knows that they will keep coming. Or maybe some disappointed F/O's who were waiting for their upgrade obviously don't appreciate DEC's applying and jumping the q, which I can totally understand even more.

In any case, don't forget that I'm coming from RYR, and that is pretty much the bottom of the pyramid, so don't think I don't understand these feelings because I have been contracting myself for over 2 olympic games now and if you think your management is playing rough on you, wait until you fly an aircraft with a blue arp on its tail where you stir you own coffe in a plastic cup of hot water while you see your conditions degrade for every single mile you fly. :=

I have definetely valued your comments on the risk of not suceeding, and I'm most grateful for your advice, but from where I'm coming from, I'll just be happy if they manage to put a stop to my deglamourization process and teach me how to grab a fork and knife again and how to put a tie around my neck in the morning, something I haven't done in quite some time now.

If on top of that I'm lucky enough to learn how to fly a heavy boat on a decent carrier, while making twice my pay and flying half the hours in a new and challenging environment, I'll just consider it the icing on the cake... :ok:

Fratemate

16th Feb 2012, 03:09

737lpa,

It is very true that AJX is not what AJX & AJV used to be and they have got a long way to go before we will be the happy bunnies we used to be. Some things have improved, such as the introduction of the commuting days but those have been paid for, in the main, by the AJV pilots losing a day off and the AJV captains having their pay reduced. Yes, all the pilots are now on the same terms and conditions but the Company does still wonder why many of us were not singing their praises at the changes. Basically, I bought an extra day off per month whether I liked it or not, in order to placate myself after the complete balls-up they made of the 'integration'. The point I'm trying to make is there are still a lot of unhappy pilots, AJX needs to address a fair few points to get it right and I am not some happy-clappy driver who thinks all is well in the company.

However, I am not as bitter as some and whereas I think I know the reason for PoinDexter's vitriol, I'm not getting into that. I think he was trying to stress that nothing is guaranteed and if you fail then you're out of a job but I would ask if there's any place where this isn't true. I have to admit I was surprised by one of the DECs. He seemed to be doing everything right; he'd got through the type and ATPL checks and basically flunked the 'Captain' check (or wasn't put up for it being more accurate). A very personable pilot who kept his head down and certainly seemed to be making the right noises at the right time; it was certainly a shock when I heard he wasn't here any more. The others were less of a surprise from reports I've heard. I won't discuss them any more, as it is unfair to them and based on hearsay but it will ALWAYS be the case with ALL airlines that some people aren't suited to either that airline, that aircraft or that culture and so they don't get through.

I can only think that maybe some of you who are inside think that by not getting people to apply, management would struggle somewhat and improve terms, which I can sympathize with, although everyone knows that they will keep coming.

They have already suffered the consequences of their mis-managed 'integration' and managed to piss-off so many of us that word quickly spread throughout the aviation circles, leading to a dramatic reduction of applicants. They have been forced to improve conditions and that has been a good thing and, should they continue, they'll get back the support and encouragement that we always used to give, leading to full classes whenever they ran them (which is not the case now). Yes, it is good to have a few cards up our sleeves to force their hand but I don't think any of us think we have the ability to influence the Company through our Internet comments.

Or maybe some disappointed F/O's who were waiting for their upgrade obviously don't appreciate DEC's applying and jumping the q, which I can totally understand even more.

AJX don't have a quota to fill in terms of a balance of captains and first officers. They would promote every FO if their turn came up and they jumped through all the hoops. That's not to say there are not extenuating reasons for FOs not getting the 'nod'. Some are political (especially with the Japanese FOs), some are valid (in that the FO is not ready.....how touchy-feely was that :) ) and some are just plain stupid, making you realise some of the Japanese 'management' really don't have a clue. However, the point I'm making, badly, is that DECs don't jump the queue and they don't harm the FOs chances of upgrading.

It is important that you do come here with your eyes open. There will be a lot of angst caused by travelling half way round the world to go to work. There will be even more caused if you have a family and are not home regularly, even if it is for a short time. It's great having a big block of time off at home but you can guarantee the washing machine will pack up the instant you leave to go to Japan for 3 or 4 weeks and Skype is crap for fixing leaking pipes. Flying somewhere different is good for a while but it will become just as tedious as flying the same routes elsewhere. As for flying something bigger; well I reckon they're all the same size once the flight deck door is closed, so I'm not into all of this 'wide body' crap. Again, in my bad point-making, I'm trying to say it is certainly not bright and rosy and some aspects will be worse than RYR. However, this is not China and you're not dealing with the Chinese, who I wouldn't entertain flying for even if I was out of a job. You'd be coming in with the expectations of the salary you'd receive now, unlike a good deal of us who have seen it plummet and if you're happy with that remuneration then that's god for you. The Japanese are bonkers but they're generally decent, polite, respectful people and it's a far, far better place to work than a good deal of other places. The aircraft are the best maintained you will ever find anywhere in the world and they have all the bells and whistles fitted.

So long as you come here with all this in mind and are still happy to do so and you're prepared to just buckle down, play the game and tell them how marvellous their advice is, then you'll almost certainly be fine. The guy who surprised us by not getting through was just that; one guy. Compare and contrast that with those who have got through and also those who didn't but just about everybody knew they wouldn't.

PS: Cross country = everything outside the circuit. Don't get bogged down with it, just knock off all the time you mucked around in a Cessna doing circuits (technically I think it's within 7nm of the airfield) and the rest is cross country.

alkor

16th Feb 2012, 12:26

Hi all,

I am thinking of applying for FO and I got a few questions regarding commuting. As I understand there are 14 day off available (yearly leave included ;10+2+2).

-that is per month? so 14 days off and 16 or 17 days on?

- is it possible when and if you finish early on your last work day to catch a direct flight to your home destination? Got yourself +1 day. So you are at home 13 whole days.

Thanks for explanation.

Cheers,

A

The Dominican

16th Feb 2012, 15:47

-that is per month? so 14 days off and 16 or 17 daysA

Correct

- is it possible when and if you finish early on your last work day to catch a direct flight to your home destination? Got yourself +1 day. So you are at home 13 whole days.

The company will schedule you so that most of the time you finish early enough that you can commute the last day of duty, there might be an unforeseen case here and there but most of the time you will go home the last day of duty. I think that in the five years I've been here, I have not commuted the last day twice.

alkor

16th Feb 2012, 17:37

Super.

Thank you Dominican.

A

737lpa

16th Feb 2012, 20:47

After 72 hours of sorting out my x-country time, I can proudly say that I have sent my application to Parc, which they have succesfully accepted and forwarded to AJX today.

I will post the next event, shoud there be one, that is...

Many Thanks to all the contributors to this post, including the uppers, the downers, the ones who left this gig, the ones who stayed, the ones who keep saying they're gonna leave but never actually do (we have hundreds of those in RYR, including myself), and in summary, the good fellow contractors out there.

PS: Just one more quick thing that is not very clear to me by reading this entire thread: Is there any training involved before actually flying the line? :}

oldhasbeen

17th Feb 2012, 04:37

...training....wtf is that???

The Dominican

17th Feb 2012, 05:07

It is not as much teaching you how to operate the 767 in regular line operations as it is a rehearsal for a play to be presented to an individual that will criticize you on wether your response to the PM calling "minimums" for a circling approach was "continue" or "check" to the play critic that will be of the outmost importance instead of your deviation from speed or altitude, the understanding of that philosophy early in the training seems to be the difference between the people that cruise through it and those that need to be placed on suicide watch.

We get very little factual information from the training center as to why individuals did not make it, the stories that we do get have taken a life of their own and seem to be different from actual occurrences 10 fold, the only thing that we know for sure in the case of the DEC in recent times that made it all the way to the company check before the JCAB check just to be let go at the end is that we for sure do not know what happen, if it was just an unceremonious way of playing politics just to be cruel or they keep trying to pump money to salvage quarter of a million dollar investment of a trained pilot, we will never know because the training center managements doesn't let us in their decision making process. One thing I do know, bs spreads very easily out here on the line and when it does get to you, is nowhere near the bulls original droppings.
M
I'll try to post what I believe is the key to a successful training here at AJX's one big happy family.

1) "Calls and SOP's"
This is where the majority of your concentration at the early stages of training should be placed, you MUST learn all calls (and we have a very chatty cockpit here) and sing them out at the correct time during the very scripted sim session as if it was second nature, don't worry if you blow through your altitude by 150 feet or if you can't keep the speed within 10 knots, if you make your required calls you will be OK, I just cannot stress this enough, they know that they will give you (if I may use a Texas unit of measurement here) a **** load of sim sessions to get your hand flying under control so they are not worried, but if you are still struggling by sim 6 with the calls and SOP's, even if you are the best damn hand flyer on the planet, they will interpret that as that you don't care too much about learning it the ANA way, you need to sit in the CBT at the training center with your partner and do some chair flying and get familiar with all our calls or nothing else matters, if you think that many of our calls are over kill or you know of a more efficient way from a previous life or you might have a sincere suggestion to make things better, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF:=

2) Follow the script
Repeat after me, "It is a rehearsal" not a sim session, you will be given a training manual that has all the lessons on it and you will know what malfunction will come and when during the lesson it will come, be prepared for it, tab your QRH in the checklists you will need for that lesson and only take the approaches that you will need for that lesson, you will know what ILS, VOR or NDB approach you will shoot so the time to take them out of the binder is before you enter the sim, not when the PF calls to prepare for the approach, they view you going through a binder looking for a plate or fumbling trough the QRH looking for the appropriate check list as you not beeing organized and prepared, you have a script in fron of you, take it with you to the sim and while there are a few seconds of inactivity for the PM while you are waiting to intercept the inbound course (there is a good minute or more that you are just sitting there as a PM) grab your QRH and flip it to the next checklist you will use, is on the script, you already know which one it is, grab the next approach plate and have it on the top so that the observer ( the play critic) interprete this as you are studying hard and that you are prepared for the lesson, make notes on your plate, sim profile for the day to remind you of the calls and timing of the calls, highlight frequencies and altitudes, on the plates and use them as a reminder of the timing you need to make calls, highliting stuff means you are studying:ok: they LOVE IT.

3) Learn the SIMISMS
The sofwere on our sims have some bad habits that are not on the actual airplanes and they will come out at the worst times during a sim session, one of the things is that when you divert back to the origin airport (and you will know when that will happen, it is on the script) and you select the approach to be conducted, the normal operator will look on the last pages for the RWY center line intercept, bring it to the first legs page top, make the inbound course bib and execute, right? Fat dumb and happy! Well, the FMS's on the sim will give you a string of discontinuities that will take you more than a few attempts to get rid off, all while the play observer is sitting there thinking, "This guy doesn't know how to use the FMS" but nobody tells you the FMS has that glitch nor they tell you how to fix it, they expect you to figure this on your own but the correct time is NOT in front of your sim instructor because he is not really an instructor, he is a critic, there is no instruction here, there is criticism of you performance.
The best way to bypass this glitch is before you select the approach, go to the last fix on the legs and bring it to the top of the first leg, in effect erasing all the other points on the legs and just leaving the last fix on the first legs page and execute, then you can go to the DEP/ARR page and select the approach and extend the center line as you normaly would, this prevents the discontinuities and will save you from being perceived as not understanding the FMS, this believe it or not has been the undoing of many people here. Also the set up of the NDB approach the way they want it to be set up is a little conversome and it does take some practice so the time to do it is not with your instructor in the sim because there isn't one, there is a critic there that will interprete this as you being fumbling through it. I have the solution for that too, there is a contraption on the training center called "the FMS trainer" the best way I found to be proficient at setting this approaches in a short period of time was to go on my day off, start up the thing and just set the approaches (both the ILS and NDB) over and over again including the technique described above to prevent the discontinuities, I did it over and over again until it just took me a few seconds
to set up even the conversome NDB approach, the FMS trainer has a schedule on that room so if there is nobody scheduled to use it, just go in a learn how to bypass these SIMISMS quickly.

4) How to deal with your critics job?
As I said before there is very little in terms of instruction here, there is observation of your performance and criticicim afterwards, take notes to everything they say and if you disagree or agree with what is being said you will still agree in the group setting, during a normal sim session there will be 4 people there and during progress checks up to 6 , including you and your sim partner, after the briefing is complete, if you have a question or a disagreement or need clarification on anything, take your sim instructor apart of the group, and one on one you can ask, then you inform your sim partner of the correct information, also during progress checks you will be criticized for something that was opposite to what your instructor was teaching you, DO NOT, bring it up during the debrief, just nod and write it down, then take your instructor a side and bring up the discrepancy, him and the progress checker both have ANA badges with low employee numbers on them so they can sort it out without your help.

These are some of the gotchas that I have seen and heard people fall into from guys that went trough training and from some of the company RTC's I hope you find it useful.

737lpa

17th Feb 2012, 12:21

Thanks Dominican,

Is definitely going to be challenging, but I get the picture of the DO's and the DON'Ts during the training period and the play that we have to act out. In a way, it's really the same in most places. Maybe just a bit (or greatly) exagerated in AJX.

In any case, I'm just waiting for AJX to reply to my application, which is already challenging enough. I have positive energy though, because I'm not jobless, which I think makes a big difference when looking for a new gig.

If I'm lucky enough to get called for an assesment, I'll be asking here for the latest details on the interview, the technical exam and the SIM sessions, to see if there has been any changes from the past (which is greatly explained on this thread already).

Thanks again and maybe see you down the road in the Jetlag, or whatever is called where you guys exercise your drinking manouvres. :ok:

Breakthesilence

17th Feb 2012, 13:31

Hi everyone,

I'm a F/O on B737 EFIS with almost 4000 TT and 3800 on the 73 in Europe. As actually I have no career opportunities here due to the slowdown period here in europe together with financial troubles and an upcoming merge of airlines here (probably leading to some redundancies) I was considering this B767 Non-rated opportunity to bring some fresh air to my life, learn about a different airplane, culture and looking for captain upgrading opportunity.

What's the real situation there? How's the work environment, the training provided and all those things that might be interesting to know for an european guy looking to them?

Thank you very much in advance!

Esprit6969

17th Feb 2012, 15:32

Come on over and join us if you can tolerate...

Aussie RTC's who are God's gift to aviation

Japanese Management types who are intent on reinventing the wheel

6-8 month training course (away from your family) where you relearn how to fly

Doing your own Jepp revisions every other day

Sweating profusely in your uniform while in the office before you even step foot in the plane

30 minute briefings covering the most mundane items

Being constantly fatigued

Being treated like crap because your an FO

Having a 20% chance of upgrading the first time around

Japanese Managers who are hypocrites

The majority of pilots here are a great bunch to fly with, but I cringe everytime I am paired up with a Jap pilot. If you want to taste Japanese culture and get a sense of what it would be like to work here, watch "Lost in Translation" and take a ball peen hammer to your nuts. Are things really THAT bad in Europe? I'll trade you jobs in a heartbeat, even if it meant a 50% cut in pay. The amount of b.s. we put up with here on a day-to-day basis is astounding. I can't wait for something better to come along.

Breakthesilence

17th Feb 2012, 15:53

A lot of pilots are leaving Europe for the sand flat countries (UAE).

Europe pretends to be well joined but it isn't. Every country request a good command of the local tongue and, in my opinion, this is enough absurd than what you expect from "Europe".

As you can imagine, this cut out a lot of opportunities for those (a lot) who don't have full command of dutch, german, spanish, portuguese, french etc. (Italy is the exception to the rule but please, avoid it!! Everything is going adrift there).

For those who want to avoid the hot temperatures of UAE, Asia is the alternate choice.

condorbaaz

18th Feb 2012, 09:47

Hell, I am P1 on the A330 and I am thinking of AJX..
Good Commuting Contract..

Breakthesilence

18th Feb 2012, 12:02

What about the 6 months training to get the Japan ATPL? Do you fly anyway during the training or you'll spend 6 months on the ground studying?

The Dominican

18th Feb 2012, 12:20

The 6 months do not include line training, this period is for the validation of your Japanese ATPL, basic indoc, systems and sim. If you are typed then is only the ATPL ride with the JCAB but if you are non-type rated then is two rides in the sim with the JCAB and one line check if you are a DEC, the entire process including line training is about 8 months, provided you don't require additional sim sessions.:ugh: I don't really think is particularly difficult once you understand how to play the game, but it is long, boring and repetitive, probably the most difficult part is to keep motivated for that length of time. One good thing is that the company will put you up in a very comfortable apartment (small but nice) and you can have your family with you, some guys had their espouses here for the duration.

The Dominican

18th Feb 2012, 12:52

One more thing, the company has assigned a few captains to be training liaisons, but for some reason some of the guys don't really use this asset at their disposal and instead try to figure the training culture on their own, these guys are there to help you with more than just the technical aspect of it all, take advantage of this asset at your disposal

E165

19th Feb 2012, 07:02

Not to be the bearer of bad news or negative commentor about this place, but there is a reason why a bunch of guys have left/will leave for Skymark and other Asian carriers recently and in the very, very near future. Like I said before, this place may suit some guys still, but the majority of the pilots are discontent with this place and seriously looking at other places (even if it's for less pay). If you don't have any other place to go or have a job where you can get an extended leave of absence, stay away. Really. And if you choose to come here still, good luck.

PoinDextir

20th Feb 2012, 00:20

737lpa wrote...

"I can only think that maybe some of you who are inside think that by not getting people to apply, management would struggle somewhat and improve terms, which I can sympathize with, although everyone knows that they will keep coming."

Yes 737!!!!! That is EXACTLY the point we are all trying to make here! Last summer things reached a fever pitch. Only 50% of classes were being filled, many were cancelled. Applicants dried up and those who did apply were mediocre at best. This applied pressure to the company, created leverage and guess what? Now we have 2 extra days at home with our families, a slight improvement in per diem and - wait for it.............FREE laundry. Management did what they could to appease the masses. As usual, it was a day late and a dollar short and only served as an insult to what most of us wanted to see in improvements. Nevertheless, it was better than what we had before, if only incrementally.

The "kink in the armor" here is that the company STILL gets applicants like you who think this place will be far better that where you are coming from. You won't be able to appreciate what I am about to say until about 3 months into your time here but you WILL ask yourself "Why did I come here?" It will then become self evident why so many are leaving this place like rats on a sinking ship. We were all like you at one point, curious as to "How bad can things REALLY be over there?" There is NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE I have flown with recently who isn't looking at leaving here. From the most senior of Captains to the most junior FO's.

Listen to what most are telling you here. Those I have kept in touch with who have left this place have no regrets about doing so and are much happier where they've landed (pardon the pun.) This includes guys who have left for jobs paying as much as 50% less but they have their lives, health and sanity back!

Those who are writing about how its "Not so bad here" and "It is what you make of it," are suffering from what is known as Stockholm Syndrome. Just remember the phrase MISERY LOVES COMPANY and you will be just as "Happy" as we all are here. :ugh:

-DEX

737lpa

20th Feb 2012, 09:37

PoinDextir,

In the contract arena is not strange to see attrition levels pick up on every single airline on a rotating cycle. It happens in AJX, in RYR, in the sandpit and everywhere you look at. The airlines where most of your excolleagues from AJX are leaving to, guess what, they are probably infested with pilots who are looking at the AJX gig, who would give an arm and a leg to be invited to Tokyo for an assesment, and who surely don't understand why anyone would come to their turf coming from Japan. "You're out of your mind leaving that job in Tokyo, man!", some of your colleagues will be told.

Pilots are whiners. I know because I'm a whiner myself. We just can't get content enough. I understand that any commuting job has always a time limit to it because regardless of how good the gig might be, people will always try to go back home even to worse conditions and not spend over half of their lives on the other side of the planet. But if you accept the fact that you are going to commute, and your family supports you on that decision, there is no doubt that AJX is one of the best contracts out there, if not the best, and that's even with the after-the-merger regressions. And it is good just because it's better than the other available contracts out there, plain and simple. The money is better, the business class commute is better , the amount of days off is better, the fleet is better, and the base (Tokyo) is much better than so many other third world country where you most likely will end up making less money, flying more hours, with less days off, and a worse commute home.

So you've had your conditions worsened. Welcome to the real world of contracting aviation. And be careful what you wish for, because your wishes may become true. I see one of the biggest issues that are being mentioned here is fatigue. Now I fly 900 hours a year of short haul flying and wake up at 3:45 AM for 5 days in a row to fly with no food or water provided for 11 and change hour duties and with the fuel, on-time performance and operational pressures of the king of LCC's, not to mention that I make much less than AJX's CPTs do and that I fly 5 or 6 times their number of sectors, with all those beautiful turnarounds, CTOT's, unhhapy PAX who just got slammed at the gate for the size of their luggage, and surrounded by cabin crew and ground staff who are lucky to make a grand on their best month. Tell me about your fatigue issues and give me more details on your rostering complaints and we can discuss them, but be prepared to have a lasting discussion because fatigue is an issue in most contracting jobs out there. Not being unionized and being expats, leaves us all contractors exposed to rostering abuses, change of conditions, dishonouring of contracting clauses, and an endless list of undesirable trends that, I'm afraid, you will find in your next gig unless you're being recalled to your lovely major or your uncle owns a learjet.

I frankly don't think that is fair to say that experienced drivers who actually like AJX (or better said don't dislike it that much so as to leave for another job), are just suffering of Stockholm syndrome. IMHO, they have simply not found a better option. And guess what, nowdays they're not going to, simply because there aren't any. And I have done my shopping around, just like anybody else in the contracting bubble.

I realize that being succesful for this job is harder than the average, and that the training bits are definetely a downfall to it, including the risk of loosing it all by failing after 8 months of adaptation, submission and surviving the training mode that not one of us likes to be on. Now, I'm not anywhere close to being a Top Gun, and for what has been exposed here, I have the same chances of failing than the next guy, if not more. But I know and can give it a try. One thing is for sure, if they are paying me my salary from day 1, they are not charging me for the type rating or even bonding me, they are covering my accomodation expenses, and including airfare and hotel for my wife and kids to visit me, I think I can have reasons to believe that their real intention is for me to pass and fly for them, and not waste their time and money on a paid 9 month stay in Japan.

In any case, we will see if I can get an assesment or not. But in the meantime, let me tell you that greener pastures are hard to find, and that by searching around I think you will manage to move sideways at best, but I don't believe you will find a better gig in the contract/ex-pat arena. If there is, please advise so that we can all go there and be happy everafter.

Lastly, don't think of me (or any new comer) as intruders, or the reason why your conditions have degraded or will not improve. Pilots come and go, and with the actual world crisis, I'm sure that they are receiving a **** load of CV's by the day. This job has been advertised non stop for years, same as KAL. It is just their recruitment style to keep screening looking out for what they think matches their criteria and profile. Those who think that AJX is unable to pick up crews from the market because of their worsening conditions I think are not being realistic with the current situation out there. With that being said, it is obvious that ANA is satisfied with its expat group of pilots and that Air Japan is used by ANA as a threating and pressure tool to keep their mainline unionized pilots in line, just like many other flag carriers do. I don't have the crystal ball, but I have the feeling that Air Japan will grow and will continue to be one of the best contracts out there, despite the low morale currently in place by most of its drivers.

Ok, back to the kitchen now to cook my spaghettis for my 12 hour/ 6 sector duty of tomorrow morning (if you can call 3:55 AM morning time)...:}

LindbergB767

20th Feb 2012, 12:13

To 737IPA
You are telling true man What ever peoples ,working there ,are saying ,this is Still a good contract
No where you will find a commuting contract with those conditions
And those who want to try Skymark good luck HA HA
Been there, working 6 days in row, commuting in cattle class, no pay raise, and JCAB ride every years ( sim check and route check)
And if you think that ANA japanese pilots or instructors are bad, just try the Japan Airlines ex Captains (Japanese ) who think they are the best in the world
Management at Skymark.....only the ONE who decide The owner
By the way I have a friend working for them,(Air Japan) for maybe 10 years now and even if it is not perfect, he is still quite happy

Fratemate

20th Feb 2012, 13:46

there is a reason why a bunch of guys have left/will leave for Skymark and other Asian carriers recently

Who are these guys you're talking about, E165? I know of 1 who has gone, 1 who will almost certainly go and 3 others who might.

We know the 1 who has gone; captain, great guy, sorely missed and who just kept his word that he would go if certain conditions weren't changed and they weren't.

We know the one who will almost certainly go because there's a chance he'll get DEC there, when he'll never get his command at AJX.

That leaves us with the other 3. All of whom are FOs who are interested in Skymark only if they can go there as DECs, rather than wait another 8-12 months before they get their commands at AJX. I can't help but think they might be being a little short-sighted but I'm also certain they'd have other reasons for going (tax, paid for accommodation etc), so each to their own and the best of luck if they do go.

'Other Asian carriers'? Well, 1 went at the end of his contract and is now almost certainly going to go to Skymark, so I don't think he was too happy with his choice of alternative airlines (I'd be interested to know who PD has been talking to because I don't know who the happy ones are in their new jobs). It would be great to see him back in AJX but I don't think that would happen by his choice.

SO, yes, we've had a couple leave and a few more that may but the impression that floods of pilots are leaving is just not true and, as ever, there's a lot more said than done!

I'm obviously suffering from Stockholm Syndrome because I'm still here, despite being very, very pissed off when they screwed up the integration. However, I've done a LOT of homework and have come to the conclusion that it is still the best CONTRACT job around. That is clearly a lot different to a 'normal' job and, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have left the regular side of things for a contract job. However, having made that decision, I'm still certain that this is the best of the bunch in our world. They still have a long way to go to get it right (again) and I'll help in any way I can to get there but I think anyone is deluding themselves if they think there's a better contract job out there.......and I agree, Jepp amendments really suck :*

The Dominican

20th Feb 2012, 14:22

There is a LOT of movement in every job out there right now, a good friend that is a captain at EK just confirmed that he received an email letting him know that they opened the floodgates for DEC positions again, that is very telling of what is to come in terms of pilot shortages in the international arena, people make decisions based on many factors, I was chatting with one of our captains on my last flight with him and after 10 years here he is moving on to an A330 DEC gig, he was telling me that was grateful for the chance when he got it and he wasn't leaving because he was mad, simply because after 10 years on the 767 it is the right time to make a move. Some people were expecting to be on the left seat after 3 years here and that didn't materialized, I'm sure that those guys and the captain I was talking to have very different perspectives about the exact same job, some guys will pick up and head to Emirates as DEC,s from here I'm sure, and maybe they will have a great time there and enjoy Dubai, I wouldn't take my wife and daughter to live in that society and subject myself to flying 900 hours a year, but I cannot criticize somebody who does it, everyone seeks different things from their gig, I look at absolutes as unrealistic, everyone hates it, everyone I fly with is looking to get out, everyone is happy, everyone loves it, all of those statements are simply incorrect because we are all different and are living at a different stage of our lives. Also the concept that a pilot will make a decision about his career from what people post on PPrune is just ludicrous, just as ridiculous as placing the application shortages on the "information" we provide here, people are always applying to this job, there have never been a time when the applications have dried out, sorry to have to find out this way:rolleyes:

TAC inop.

20th Feb 2012, 16:26

lucky if you make it through training too
Considder the cut rate
Dont think you will be in anyway immune
It is a very different place
If I said to you that you can leave your current command, come over here, but you'll have a 70% chance of passing....would you still come?
That's about it hey Dom?

oldhasbeen

20th Feb 2012, 22:27

basic spelling will get you half way there

TAC inop.

21st Feb 2012, 13:03

....indeed.
...and the ability to read and comprehend the selection criteria as listed by the appropriate contract company.

737lpa

26th Feb 2012, 21:21

Now that it's official and they're accepting applications in the desert for DEC's, we will see if the attrition levels pick up or not at AJX. This is definetely gonna make a lot of people think and wonder.

On the other hand, this could be good for those staying on board AJX and for those (like me) trying to get on board, as conditions may improve a bit if ANA sees a threat of its AJX pilots heading to the sandpit. I know RYR for sure will suffer the consequences of this move by EK.

Maybe we'll get a bottle of water now for duties exceeding 10 hours...:}

E165

27th Feb 2012, 02:37

Well, we definitely have an attrition problem here since last year. (you can be the judge in deciding if this is in line with other carriers who hire foreign pilots) Not just a few trickle here and there like in the past, but almost 20 pilots have left last year, with a couple to other Japanese carriers. As for SM, actually, 1 guy already started class this year, and 4 more have firm class dates there. (whether they'll actually go, no one knows). Plus the 1 Dom mentioned, another going back to the US, a couple more who are looking at one of the new Japanese startups very seriously, and a few more definitely in the process of leaving. It totals to about a dozen. If that's not a bunch, I don't know what is. Again, whether or not these guys leave, that remains to be answered until they actually give AJX the sayonara notice.

I'm not in any way trying to make up stories to discourage people from coming here. However, this place is definitely not what it was before the "merger" though. Just stating the facts and maybe some rumors that's going around. But if you still want to come here, I say come on and you can be your own judge about this place - and good luck again. It still works out for a lot of the pilots here. My cool-aid started tasting sour a while back. :) And yes, the grass is not always greener on the other side, but sometimes it is.

Fratemate

27th Feb 2012, 07:19

almost 20 pilots have left last year

E165,

If you could PM those names I'd be very grateful. I'm not trying to dilute your message but I can't get anywhere near 20.

I agree with your figures regarding potential leavers. I reckon 7-8 definites/almost definites, with another 4 who are certainly looking seriously at other jobs.

The recruitment is nowhere near keeping up and we will, I think, be running at a net loss. This could be an okay thing IF they reacted by upping the terms and conditions. On the other hand they could hand some of the flying back to ANA and I'd be willing to bet a couple of Asahis that it won't be passenger flying. So we COULD end up with an even worse deal i.e. more freight + OKA + a salary reduction (for the AJV captains), which would certainly outweigh the 'extra' commuting day we've gained.

This is one of those spiral situations. If we could get more pilots then we could get more of the flying shared around, leading to less fatiguing and more equitable rosters. The opposite is also true, as we are seeing at the moment. The days off are, in my opinion, pretty good and the best of the commuting jobs. Likewise the commuting itself; you can't really get any better. So the problems of rosters etc comes down to money. More money and an exchange rate protection for the salary = more pilots = better rosters = happy pilots = more pilots applying/staying.

It really isn't rocket science but I don't see Parc, nor Crew stepping up and getting it sorted out and that's what is required. You'd think the falling numbers of pilots on their books would prompt some sort of action but I'm clearly, as ever, not seeing the Big Picture :hmm:

PoinDextir

27th Feb 2012, 10:36

Esprit6969

27th Feb 2012, 12:27

20 is an accurate number of pilots gone in the past year. There are 2 currently at Skymark in training and 3 heading out the door to go there in March. I think Skymark gets it where ANA doesn't. The place sucked a year ago, however quality of life is heading in the right direction. No more JCAB checkrides every 6 months. Just on your initial checkride...everthing else is now done in-house. Sky pays all your taxes. Pilots have the ability to make 20k per month, they can bank first class tickets every month and in turn use them to go anywhere for them and their family, residency card (unlike ANA), business class ticketing to your doorstep, pay is actually higher than ANA, A330/A380's coming, upon completion of your first contract an automatic upgrade to instructor ($3000/mo) and an extra 2 days off bringing you inline with AJX. I believe more have left AJX for Sky than the other way around, so I can't say I would agree that our contract is the best in Asia. I would go there in a heartbeat if I only met their requirements.

oldhasbeen

28th Feb 2012, 00:26

Hey Esprit, I just got an unsolicited email from Rishworths with the T&Cs and they only claim 8K a month, How do you come up with 20K?? Their insurance is only for the pilot and not his family too, so there's another gorilla or two gone to start with. Can't see where you're getting the 20K from. Happy to be corrected of course:confused:

The Dominican

28th Feb 2012, 01:27

The compensation package at SKY is $14,500 USD/month including salary and allowances, but with the attrition levels that they are experiencing right now (a good friend that recently joined the line there told me that they lost 12 captains in January) the company resorted to offer $1,000USD to fly on their days off, hence the 20K number that has been circling around, it is possible and some guys are doing it but it is by selling several days off to the company.:(

Esprit6969

28th Feb 2012, 02:34

My friend that is in training there has residency cards for him and his wife and kids. Therefore full medical from day one via the national healthcare system. You can sell back your ten days off every month your20 days of vacation at $1000/day. Anything over 75 hours is at $106/hr. Guys there regularly make 20k a month.

Esprit6969

28th Feb 2012, 02:38

You will still get 6-7 days off to stay legal.

The Dominican

28th Feb 2012, 03:02

So basically 6 to 7 days off per month and flying 85 to 95 hours per month of domestic flying to make 20K vs. 13 days at home and flying 60 hours per month to make 17K taking my business class commute, I hardly see how you come up with that it is a better contract with more pay, sure there is a monthly pay of about 3K more but you guys are working a full week more than me a month, I just can't see as to how that is better:confused:

I wish all you guys the best of luck, specially since you got a bad deal here with the bypass of the command and I'm glad you were offered DEC positions there, but to say that it is a better contract, is a little bit of a stretch.:=

Mr Lover

28th Feb 2012, 04:34

Not because you have (you and/or your family) a residency card or alien card that means you have the National Health Care Insurance coverage... not at all. We have the card but no insurance since the company I work for in Japan doesn't want to pay for it so we have to buy private insurance.

Esprit6969

28th Feb 2012, 05:32

It boils down to what is important to you...to me its all about the money. If you look at their contract after 3 years days off increases to 12. Add your 2 vaca days and its similar to ana. Plus youve been made an instructor with a $3000 bump in pay. They have business class rt tix to your front door as well. That 17k youre going to have to pay taxes on. Skymark pays all your taxes. Im glad it works for you here. As for me I cant wait to get out. Not sure who you think your talking to as I havent even started the capt eval process.

Esprit6969

28th Feb 2012, 05:38

Mr lover im just relaying what my friend whose there tells me. He took his son to the dentist while still in training showed his id submitted the paperwork to sky and only paid something similar to a copay.

Fratemate

28th Feb 2012, 05:43

The recruitment is nowhere near keeping up and we will, I think, be running at a net loss. This could be an okay thing IF they reacted by upping the terms and conditions. On the other hand they could hand some of the flying back to ANA and I'd be willing to bet a couple of Asahis that it won't be passenger flying.

Sorry to burst your bubble Frate but...

We've already lost one PAX destination flight. NRT-BKK = GONE This was given back to ANA mainline due to lack of crew at AJX. We still operate cargo flights to BKK but no more PAX. From what I am hearing one of the HNL flights is next. Standby.

You owe someone a couple of Asahis

Sorry PD, I meant, of course, to write 'freight', not 'passenger' and totally screwed up what I was trying to say :ugh: I think I'll have to pay out in beer because of my stupidity :( I hope we don't lose one of the HNLs. I get there little enough, so reducing it by 50% isn't going to help my brief flirtations with reality.

20 is an accurate number of pilots gone in the past year. There are 2 currently at Skymark in training and 3 heading out the door to go there in March.

Esprit, if you're going to insist on espousing the wonders of SM, then at least be accurate so we can all benefit from the information. There is one guy definitely 'heading out the door', there is one guy who hasn't yet made the decision between three options and there is one who hasn't made the decision whether to go to SM or stay at AJX. That is why I wrote 'definites/almost definites'; not because I was sitting on the fence but because they haven't yet decided. You say they're definitely leaving but it will do nothing for your argument if they don't.

I think TD has covered the money side of things. If you're willing to prostitute your whole life to a company in the name of dollars, then good on ya. I would rather have a life and enjoy my time at home, than plough the skies constantly and remain in Japan just to watch my bank balance better off by a couple of grand a month.

Their JCAB checker is not yet in place. I don't doubt he will come but I wouldn't be counting chickens just yet.

A330/A380's coming, upon completion of your first contract an automatic upgrade to instructor ($3000/mo) and an extra 2 days off bringing you inline with AJX

This is perhaps the part of your posting that does you no favours in 'justifying' a move to SM. By all means go because of the tax, direct entry command, ability to sell your soul in the pursuit of $$s but don't delude yourself with crap like this. I have no idea if they've automatically 'instructorised' those on a second contract and will happily believe they have. On the other hand, they're not going to continue this ad infinitum; why would they have all their second tour guys sitting around as instructors, getting paid more but not doing an instructing job? If they're recruitment worked well and everybody stayed, you'd end up with a situation where nobody was joining (because nobody was leaving) and all captains were instructors. It might happen for a bit longer but it is certainly not something to be going there with, thinking it's going to continue. As for the 330/380, you're having a laugh :hmm: They've got a pile of Japanese, ex-longhaul, widebody drivers. Compare that with the experience level of those from AJX that are leaving to go to SM. Great guys, but a few hundred hours as a an AJX 767 FO for widebody experience isn't going to cut it when SM look at who's going to fly their new toys. By all means keep your fingers crossed and hope it'll work but there's some phrase about going there with your eyes open and suggesting you're going to be an instructor, earning an extra $3000/month and driving an A330/380 around is not realistic.

I'm not 'bigging up' AJX, nor am I justifying my staying. There are plenty of things AJX needs to do to get it right and I would have no hesitation in leaving should something, genuinely, better comes up. However, what we do need is accurate information to help us all make informed choices, not rhetoric based on hearsay and hope.

Edited to add:

PS:

20 is an accurate number of pilots gone in the past year.

An emphatic statement, which may very well be true. However, I still can't get near those numbers so, again, could you PM me the names. Thanks.

LindbergB767

28th Feb 2012, 06:05

Esprit u have it wrong
Been at Skymark myself for 7 years and peoples leaving Air Japan for Skymark need to have some brain cels burned
instructor position at Skymark is $1000 a month not 3000
Yes you can make money but if you sell 10 days Off a month you w ont have a life at ALL
JCAB are still there and just fail a guy who is with the Cie since the 1998
For the last 3 years Sky is supposed to be approved for in house check
The salary and working conditions did not change at Skymark since 2004
The first contract use to be 8500 a month, 10 days OFF and 24 vacation a year
Now it is 8000 a month, 9 days OFF in row and 20 days of vacation
we can not call that an improvement
And the owner change the contract when he likes
we had the choice to be paid in Yen or US, he stop that,
we had taxi to go to work, he stop that
ect ect
Airbus 330 and 380 what a nice carrots
Was told last year by the chief pilot that only Japanese (ex JAL) will fly it
D ont think they will change their minds
Anyway I would go at Air Japan any time before Skymark

Esprit6969

28th Feb 2012, 07:03

Yep ajx is the cats meow..thats why so many have left here. There are 3 for sure in the march class at sky. 2 in training now..i talk to them both regularly. I am just relaying what i was told about the place. I couldmt give a rats arse if you believe it or not. What I do know is that this place sucks to come over as an fo.

Fratemate

28th Feb 2012, 08:01

None of us is saying AJX is the 'cat's meow' and that everything is fine and dandy. What we are saying (or I am) is demonstrate accurate figures, rather than pad your posts with meaningless, inaccurate rhetoric. Throwing your toys out of the pram and having a hissy fit because you don't like it that you're being asked to back-up your statements does little to enhance the message you're trying to get across. I understand you don't like it at AJX and would rather go elsewhere but don't make sweeping statements about a host of people leaving etc to try and justify your thinking unless those statements are true. I know it doesn't suit you that someone who has been with SM for 7 years is challenging your understanding of the situation but, maybe, it might be a good idea to hear what he's saying, rather than trying to twist the data to suit what you want to hear.

Seeing as you're not prepared to let me know the 20 who have left, perhaps you'd PM me the names of those in the March class. As I said before, only one I know is definitely going (I spoke to him a few days ago) and he verified what I have said about the other two.

Esprit6969

28th Feb 2012, 10:16

Great guys, but a few hundred hours as a an AJX 767 FO for widebody experience isn't going to cut it when SM look at who's going to fly their new toys.

Fratemate, this comment shows how ignorant you are and illustrates how you just pulled this out of your arse. I know for a fact that 2 of the guys going have a couple thousand hours (757 I think) as jet PIC. The only reason they were hired as FO's at ANA was because of the 3000 min requirement (created by the likes of Larry and Juan the 1000 hour wonder RJ pilots that struggled through training).

LindbergB767

28th Feb 2012, 11:19

Spirit
you d ont give a rat of what we say, because you have 2 friend on the course and they know better than ME wow
Probably I was not there enough .And me too I still have friends there and they are not on the course. They have been there since the beginning of Skymark and I am still well informed of what s happenning there
Anyway try it and you will see by yourself
By the way more than 20 expats left Skymark in 2011
for sure if you are an FO at ANA and they offer you a left seat yes TAKE it
but you will fly 40% of your time in the right seat anyway because they d ont have enough FO
But no way a captain at Skymark will make more than a Cap at Air Japan
By the way you w ont get 12 days OFF on a second contract you have to buy those days
$1000 pay cut a month for those days.. And the biz class is only if you make more than 80 hours in a month.
And if you d ont take your ticket you w ont received $2000. but only $500

Esprit6969

28th Feb 2012, 12:26

Numbnutz,

Is it possible that things have changed since you were there? Pilots leave all contracts...20 at ANA, 20 at Sky in the past year. All that proves is that for some people its not their cup of tea. AJX isn't mine. Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Who cares what seat you fly from! Hell, put me in the FA jumpseat, as long as I'm getting Captain pay. We do the same thing at AJX. Your point is moot. You are sadly mistaken, a Sky Captain can make more than a AJX Captain. It is virtually impossible to make any overtime at AJX. I don't know of ANY AJX Captain making 20 grand a month AFTER taxes. If one posts here I will suck your manhood. But I will need to see a paystub first.

I know how the 2nd contract works, I have a friend who works for WASINC. You are offered 2 extra days off, but you take a $1000 hit. However, your enticed to re-sign by making you an instructor( Not everyone accepts or is even offered, but if you have half a brain, it happens). $2000 extra, $3000 if you actually instruct. For a net gain of $1000-2000. If your selling your days back...then chances are you are going to fly 80 hours a month and get biz class positioning.

AJX is a great contract if your coming as a Captain and don't mind flying fatigued all the time and working for a bunch of hypocrites. Skymark is also a great contract if you don't mind working hard and making alot more money. That is my point.

work to live

28th Feb 2012, 12:58

Maybe if the guys at Sky did not sell back their days off and vacation then the basic pay would be raised to more realistic levels to attract the pilots they obviously need......just a thought :)

The Dominican

28th Feb 2012, 13:07

SKY does offer a good exit strategy out of contract work for guys from the US however, the type on the 73 and time on type while flying abroad will probably give you a slight edge while applying to SWA (which is the only coveted job left in the US really, outside of delivering the world on time) kind to think of it.

The best of luck to the guys headed to SKY, sounds like some of you found what you were looking for.

Fratemate

29th Feb 2012, 04:28

Fratemate, this comment shows how ignorant you are and illustrates how you just pulled this out of your arse. I know for a fact that 2 of the guys going have a couple thousand hours (757 I think) as jet PIC.

Thank you for your considered words. I didn't say the guys weren't experienced, I said they weren't widebody, longhaul experienced like a bunch of the ex-JAL guys are. I know JE has 767 PIC time but we're talking about those that will/may leave, not those that have already left. I also said this not as a slur on any of our pilots (because they're good guys and there is no slur anyway) but to counter your supposition that SM are going to stick foreign, narrowbody pilots on the 330/380, when they've got Japanese, widebody pilots on their staff. This 'suggestion' is borne out by Lindberg, who's been there and has a grip on the reality of SM.

It's a shame you edited your post to remove the statement that you had sufficient experience to join AJX as a captain before they upped the requirements. How come you would have had >1500 PIC and yet you suddenly don't meet the SM requirements and that's why you can't go there? Something doesn't add up and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why; so maybe I'm not quite as ignorant as you say.

Esprit6969

29th Feb 2012, 12:29

Dip****,

the post was deleted by a request from somebody else as they didn't want anybody to know they were leaving ANA. I did it out of respect to him and no other reason. SM doesn't care who flies their A380's. They care about making money. They don't have enough Japanese pilots to entirely take over the Airbus acquisitions. They have already made it public that western pilots will fly these a/c. Nowhere did I say I had 1500 jet PIC. So yes you are as ignorant as I, and everybody else here at ANA, think you are.

LindbergB767

29th Feb 2012, 13:05

If you think Air Japan job is hard just wait Skymark
6 days ON 1 day Off all the time, then if you sell your rotation on top
you will be tired, d ont worries
Yes you will make money BUT you d on have a life anymore
You said it is very difficult to make more than 70 hours at AJ
I prefer to make 65 hrs 12 days OFF 24 days a year of annual leave, a BIz class every month (sure) plus pension and bonus after 5 years, and also a 5 years pay scale
than working 90 hours a month (40 to 55 sectors) no time OFF,no vacation for the same money
In my opinion AJ is a lot better for a Captain
but yes for an FO who is looking for any seat as far he is making more money so probably Skymark is a better place
By the way another Captain fail his RC a couple a day ago
MAKI the super idiot failed another expat

babisiliop

29th Feb 2012, 13:16

I have seen a lot of your posts and seems to me that you know a lot of Sky.
I am going to Tokyo in two weeks for an interview as well as a sim evaluation.
Could you share some info regarding the recruitment process or any other
info regarding Sky?

Thanks

737lpa

29th Feb 2012, 22:17

You will spend your 20K/month in a mental institution if you give up all of your days OFF and fly overtime all the time. The 737 domestic operation is also very fatiguing, more than long haul.

If you see no realistic chances of upgrading on AJX, then by all means go to SKY if they will take you as DEC. But don't count on working overtime constantly and giving up your days OFF every month when you're making your numbers because your body will not take it after a while.

Trust me on this one, man. I'm a burned out 737 driver that used to do 900/year to make the best money I could until my liver fell off. Now I pray at night that I only do 700 max.

In any case, best of luck out there... :ok:

Fratemate

1st Mar 2012, 03:15

Nowhere did I say I had 1500 jet PIC. So yes you are as ignorant as I, and everybody else here at ANA, think you are

You're not even in AJX any more, so why are you concerned about my ignorance? I know, how can I say this when you've covered your tracks so well? I mean, after all, you've just said 'here at ANA' and you also proved it by telling us you wish you had the experience to go to SM but, alas, you don't. I know I'm just ignorant but even I understand the meaning of the phrase, 'perhaps my lady does protest too much' :hmm:

You did say you had the experience to join as a captain but then decided to delete that, as well as the rest of your post naming names. It's fair enough that you wanted to remove reference to names but that wasn't the only reason you scrubbed the message := Since you said you could have joined as a DEC before they upped the requirements, you would have at least 1500 jet PIC, because that was what used to be required. Trouble is, that then means you ARE qualified to go to SM as a captain and that doesn't fall in with your cunning plan to create your false trail by saying you're not. At the end of the day, if you're going to pretend to be someone you're not, you could have at least created a more original user name than just adding 6969 to your first one :ugh:

Doubtless your next post will involve the ingenious use of more derisory terms and more clever turns to throw us off the 'trail' but I have to ask, why are you bothering? You've left and, according to you, everything is going to be great at SM. I wish you the very best of luck and hope it works out for you. Who knows, the grass may be greener but I suspect it'll just be a different shade.