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-   -   Flybe-V1 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html)

nguba 23rd Mar 2022 15:08

On possible cooperation between BA and Flybe, when bmi operated LHR-LBA BA did codeshare on this route, but only when connecting to a BA long haul flight.

Asturias56 23rd Mar 2022 15:46

"BMI had 8 services a day to Amsterdam"

and far more reliable than BA - they were the airline of choice for many from LHR to AMS

tictack67 23rd Mar 2022 16:18


Originally Posted by virginblue (Post 11204548)
Sure. I did not say "just P2P", I said they had to rely on P2P to a greater extent than the incumbents because of their smaller network.

Anyway, BMI had to fill 1.200 seats a day, not just 150 like Flybe. I am not saying that the idea is brilliant or even feasible, but obviously Flybe hopes that they can carve out a niche in what is one of the busiest city pairs in Europe. Which will, probably, depend on things like pricing - not just by looking at the overall fare bucket, but also at the availability of cheapter tickets booked a short notice etc. etc. What I find more perplexing is a route like LBA-LHR.

I know, however codeshares are not all they are cracked up to be. bmi used to get £50 per codeshare flight, sometimes flights were booked full of them, often these are done way in advance meaning the Business man couldn't get a booking close to dep.
Part of the reason BMI ran a business class on domestics.

So whilst codeshares seem a good way to fill a flight they aren't a money maker

willy wombat 23rd Mar 2022 16:47

I think in BMA’s day it was more like £25 ow, £50 would be return. That’s why one of the companies I worked for stopped doing nightstops overseas because you had all the hotac, crew costs etc for an aircraft full of punters from whom you were getting peanuts. IMHO feeding long haul from short haul only works if it’s one carrier and the system revenue is what matters. Otherwise the short haul partner is screwed.

TartinTon 23rd Mar 2022 19:05


Originally Posted by willy wombat (Post 11204696)
I think in BMAís day it was more like £25 ow, £50 would be return. Thatís why one of the companies I worked for stopped doing nightstops overseas because you had all the hotac, crew costs etc for an aircraft full of punters from whom you were getting peanuts. IMHO feeding long haul from short haul only works if itís one carrier and the system revenue is what matters. Otherwise the short haul partner is screwed.

Rubbish, you just need to have someone competent in your Pricing dept who's not just going to roll over to have their tummy tickled by the LH carrier!

Skipness One Foxtrot 23rd Mar 2022 21:09

Given even Lufthansa couldn't turn around BMI, maybe it's not as easy as all that.....

GAXLN 23rd Mar 2022 21:58


Originally Posted by willy wombat (Post 11204696)
I think in BMAís day it was more like £25 ow, £50 would be return. Thatís why one of the companies I worked for stopped doing nightstops overseas because you had all the hotac, crew costs etc for an aircraft full of punters from whom you were getting peanuts. IMHO feeding long haul from short haul only works if itís one carrier and the system revenue is what matters. Otherwise the short haul partner is screwed.

BA woke up to this in the early 1980ís when yield management was in its infancy. Analysis of the revenue on the nightstoppers, particularly from AMS, BRU and CDG revealed Pan Am and TWA were paying peanuts to use these flights to feed their services from LHR. It led to the introduction of a 90% prorate requirement being published which soon ensured the low yield tap was turned off and more profitable traffic replaced that which was lost.

As for Flybe, I am puzzled by their LHR network. Is someone paying them to use some slots? In the longer term with high LHR charges, both airport and handling, it will be a struggle to make money with 78 seat aircraft and that is before any UK261 liabilities they may incur if they happen to deliver any missed connection traffic. No doubt all will be revealed in the fullness of time. I do hope they survive and prosper as we need successful domestic airlines to assist businesses and individuals across the country reach where they need to be at an affordable price. Cross Country train fares are often very high. Hopefully the reduction in domestic APD will provide some tailwind help from next year. There are more than enough headwinds for airlines at present!

AirportPlanner1 23rd Mar 2022 23:31

I looked at one way morning fares for Leeds to London by train, itís £143 tomorrow, £125 on Monday with a few £88s around in three weeks time. The last minute ones come with warnings of limited seats being free. Evening journeys north start from £104 tomorrow and around £59 in a months time.

There probably is a decent market for those wanting to go south in relative comfort and those wanting to save a bit of money. Itís worth noting anything less than £143 single on the train is no more flexible than the flight as itís set train only. Although the airport comes with costs like parking, city centre car parks near stations arenít cheap either.

The problem will be filling the opposite direction where the train at equivalent times can be as little as £38 return. And of course whether undercutting the train even at something like £200 return makes money with LHRís charges.

BA318 23rd Mar 2022 23:37


Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1 (Post 11204848)
I looked at one way morning fares for Leeds to London by train, itís £143 tomorrow, £125 on Monday with a few £88s around in three weeks time. The last minute ones come with warnings of limited seats being free. Evening journeys north start from £104 tomorrow and around £59 in a months time.

There probably is a decent market for those wanting to go south in relative comfort and those wanting to save a bit of money. Itís worth noting anything less than £143 single on the train is no more flexible than the flight as itís set train only. Although the airport comes with costs like parking, city centre car parks near stations arenít cheap either.

The problem will be filling the opposite direction where the train at equivalent times can be as little as £38 return. And of course whether undercutting the train even at something like £200 return makes money with LHRís charges.

You also have to remember many companies wonít even consider allowing the plane journey regardless of the difference in costs. Lots of policies prohibit plane rides when the train is under a certain length of time or no flights on domestic etc.

Fairdealfrank 24th Mar 2022 04:19


I did a day return from Newcastle to London by train yesterday, left Newcastle at 0704 arrived Kings Cross at 0940 left at 1500 back into Newcastle at 1752. Simple easy and surprisingly busy.
The train is great for city centre to city centre travel, provided that one of the city centres is London. For most people who do not live in a city centre, a journey by air may be preferable, and quite often cheaper and, subject to proximity to an airport, often quicker.

One doesn't have to live far from London for it to be a 2 hour journey plus, with several changes, just to get up to London, before even starting a 2 hour train journey to Leeds/Manchester or 3 hour train journey to Newcastle. Also one needs to consider that travel to/from Heathrow by train involves going via London and using different London stations plus the tube, while carrying luggage.

Domestic routes to/from LHR offer a one stop connection to the world, so LHR-LBA is not surprising especially as no one else is on it, and there maybe scope for code sharing. Would have expected another unserved domestic route rather than LHR-AMS, LPL perhaps (apart from the Liverpool conurbation it also has an additional populated catchment area in Flintshire/Denbighshire). LHR-LPL on U2's list if it ever starts Heathrow operations. Alternatively NQY, a route the old BE did well on, four times a day. Would it work without the PSO arrangements?

Also bear in mind that with weekend engineering works, rail travel is often a 5 days/week option. As for road travel, endless roadworks, death-trap smart motorways, heavy congestion, and speed cameras make this horridly slow and unpleasant.

It's good to have as much transport choice as possible and if a route doesn't pay, it will be pulled.

AirportPlanner1 24th Mar 2022 06:41


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11204850)
You also have to remember many companies wonít even consider allowing the plane journey regardless of the difference in costs. Lots of policies prohibit plane rides when the train is under a certain length of time or no flights on domestic etc.

Very true but virtually all those I know in the north are self-employed/consultants who can travel how they choose, whereas those who travel north for work purposes are mostly employed and as you say prohibited from flying.

Not sure how representative that is of the wider world but certainly there is a market there, but equally yes in the wider sense corporate sustainability is a challenging factor to domestic that wasnít there for BE Mk 1. I guess weíre both right!

anothertyke 24th Mar 2022 11:29


Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1 (Post 11204848)
I looked at one way morning fares for Leeds to London by train, itís £143 tomorrow, £125 on Monday with a few £88s around in three weeks time. The last minute ones come with warnings of limited seats being free. Evening journeys north start from £104 tomorrow and around £59 in a months time.

There probably is a decent market for those wanting to go south in relative comfort and those wanting to save a bit of money. Itís worth noting anything less than £143 single on the train is no more flexible than the flight as itís set train only. Although the airport comes with costs like parking, city centre car parks near stations arenít cheap either.

The problem will be filling the opposite direction where the train at equivalent times can be as little as £38 return. And of course whether undercutting the train even at something like £200 return makes money with LHRís charges.

It remains to be seen what the day before air fares are so as to compare like with like.

There's always been a bit of a market to SW London and Surrey, offices in Woking, Kingston etc. But surely the main LBA-LHR market has been connections to the world. The morning flight up to LBA was always a godsend after a long overnight flight arriving into LHR at 6 am. But will long haul travellers be willing to do self-connect? That feels a bit risky to me.

airsouthwest 27th Mar 2022 17:15

We've come a long way considering many "experts" on here suggested that it was purely a slot grab to cash in on Heathrow slots. The majority of the public are behind the brand new Flybe it's just a shame that most of the cold apples seem to be on this forum who have nothing better to do than belittle and moan. Let's just be thankful that lots of people will be able to get back into the jobs they loved, I for one wish new Flybe all the best.

Secondly, does anyone else think the new flybe livery has a close resemblance to the proposed Air Southwest livery that never actually happened? The uniforms certainly are a copycat of ASW although why they've gone for black with a purple neckscarf I have no idea, I would have preferred the old purple uniforms back. I've also been told that the cabins have been given a well deserved refresh with new seat covers although what colour I have no idea! I'm certainly looking forward to flying with them out of Heathrow in a few months time.

BA318 27th Mar 2022 17:21


Originally Posted by airsouthwest (Post 11206485)
We've come a long way considering many "experts" on here suggested that it was purely a slot grab to cash in on Heathrow slots. The majority of the public are behind the brand new Flybe it's just a shame that most of the cold apples seem to be on this forum who have nothing better to do than belittle and moan. Let's just be thankful that lots of people will be able to get back into the jobs they loved, I for one wish new Flybe all the best.

Secondly, does anyone else think the new flybe livery has a close resemblance to the proposed Air Southwest livery that never actually happened? The uniforms certainly are a copycat of ASW although why they've gone for black with a purple neckscarf I have no idea, I would have preferred the old purple uniforms back. I've also been told that the cabins have been given a well deserved refresh with new seat covers although what colour I have no idea! I'm certainly looking forward to flying with them out of Heathrow in a few months time.

majority of the public? The majority of the public couldnít care less and if you look at social media there is a fair amount of negative comments.

Letís just see how it goes before making presumptuous comments and acting like society is crying out for Flybe2.

The addition of LHR-LBA and LHR-AMS donít really scream serious airline planning to keep those slots long termÖ

Atlantic Explorer 27th Mar 2022 17:22


Originally Posted by airsouthwest (Post 11206485)
We've come a long way considering many "experts" on here suggested that it was purely a slot grab to cash in on Heathrow slots. The majority of the public are behind the brand new Flybe it's just a shame that most of the cold apples seem to be on this forum who have nothing better to do than belittle and moan. Let's just be thankful that lots of people will be able to get back into the jobs they loved, I for one wish new Flybe all the best.

Secondly, does anyone else think the new flybe livery has a close resemblance to the proposed Air Southwest livery that never actually happened? The uniforms certainly are a copycat of ASW although why they've gone for black with a purple neckscarf I have no idea, I would have preferred the old purple uniforms back. I've also been told that the cabins have been given a well deserved refresh with new seat covers although what colour I have no idea! I'm certainly looking forward to flying with them out of Heathrow in a few months time.

Id love you to be able to substantiate that assertion but Iím guessing you wonít be able to. Letís see what happens, but I think you maybe having to eat some humble pie in the future.

airsouthwest 27th Mar 2022 19:24


Originally Posted by Atlantic Explorer (Post 11206493)
Id love you to be able to substantiate that assertion but Iím guessing you wonít be able to. Letís see what happens, but I think you maybe having to eat some humble pie in the future.

Hmm the same humble pie i'm still waiting to eat when I said Flybe V2 would come to fruition? Typical spotters "I know more than you, I think you opinion is a load of poo and therefore I will find any reason to make it sound as such".

Eejit 27th Mar 2022 19:43


Originally Posted by airsouthwest (Post 11206542)
Hmm the same humble pie i'm still waiting to eat when I said Flybe V2 would come to fruition? Typical spotters "I know more than you, I think you opinion is a load of poo and therefore I will find any reason to make it sound as such".

They haven't flown one revenue flight yet.

Skipness One Foxtrot 27th Mar 2022 20:15


The majority of the public are behind the brand new Flybe
Where was this gem of insight pulled from?

Atlantic Explorer 27th Mar 2022 20:16


Originally Posted by airsouthwest (Post 11206542)
Hmm the same humble pie i'm still waiting to eat when I said Flybe V2 would come to fruition? Typical spotters "I know more than you, I think you opinion is a load of poo and therefore I will find any reason to make it sound as such".

Bit of an assumption there assuming Iím a spotter isnít it? Youíve made a statement of fact, Iím asking if you can back it up which it seems you canít.

airsouthwest 27th Mar 2022 20:55


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11206492)
majority of the public? The majority of the public couldnít care less and if you look at social media there is a fair amount of negative comments.

Letís just see how it goes before making presumptuous comments and acting like society is crying out for Flybe2.

The addition of LHR-LBA and LHR-AMS donít really scream serious airline planning to keep those slots long termÖ

Over 100 different tweets too Flybe, I've only come across 5 angry tweets asking for money back or calling them Flymaybe. The majority of them are welcoming them back or asking them if they will be opening routes back up near to that persons location. Maybe go read some of the comments instead of sticking in your narrowminded bubble. I don't type anything without having actually done some research!


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