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-   -   Flybe-V1 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html)

Alteagod 14th Mar 2022 07:15

And in disruption they have no agreement with BA to swop passengers onto BA. Its a cynical slot game. Those slots are worth so much more than the revenue from 20 or 30 passengers per flight.

biddedout 14th Mar 2022 08:38


Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot (Post 11199536)
100% this. Lot of people being taken for a ride here, they're simply going to damage BA and EI with no business case to make money on their own then drop both routes as soon as they can flog off the slots.

I don't see how it affects EI, these are UK domestic routes. Why is it so unreasonable for a UK carriers to apply for and hold slots into the major UK hub, just like domestic carriers are able to link into the global hubs in other Countries. Why is this always seen as some kind of underhand Scam?

Asturias56 14th Mar 2022 09:10

Because a) these slot shave real value and b) they're used to support anti-competitive behaviour

BA318 14th Mar 2022 09:15


Originally Posted by biddedout (Post 11199621)
I don't see how it affects EI, these are UK domestic routes. Why is it so unreasonable for a UK carriers to apply for and hold slots into the major UK hub, just like domestic carriers are able to link into the global hubs in other Countries. Why is this always seen as some kind of underhand Scam?

EI operate from Belfast to London and have done for years.

biddedout 14th Mar 2022 09:21

True but surely this should now be done by EI (UK) using their own crews in G- reg machines controlled from their UK subsidiary.

Shamrock350 14th Mar 2022 10:21


Originally Posted by biddedout (Post 11199641)
True but surely this should now be done by EI (UK) using their own crews in G- reg machines controlled from their UK subsidiary.

Aer Lingus have seemingly found a workaround for this. When the rules changed on 1 January 2020, the BHD-LHR service was allowed to continue on certain EI registered aircraft as a wet lease with British Airways. They were even able to step in following the collapse of Stobart and have continued to operate domestically from BHD to LHR, MAN and EDI.

Aer Lingus is either still operating this wet lease for British Airways at BHD or has found a more permanent solution without having to re-register some of their A320s. We can assume this same deal will be in place for Emerald until they secure their UK AOC later in the year.

Ryanair was caught out trying to use this same Ďflag of convenienceí tactic with their Ryanair UK subsidiary. The problem for Ryanair was they planned to have just a token aircraft registered to the UK and would then wet lease the remaining aircraft from its other subsidiaries. This meant the majority of RUK flying was under foreign registered aircraft, the CAA put a stop to it.

Aer Lingus didnít have this problem wet leasing to British Airways because it didnít impact the majority of BA flying.

bean 14th Mar 2022 11:19

OH I GIVE UP!!!!!
Easyjet operate Austrian registered aircraft in and out of the UK on a regular basis. They also used Easyjet Swiss aircrafr before and since Brexit.
Who cares anyway

The96er 14th Mar 2022 11:23


Originally Posted by bean (Post 11199707)
OH I GIVE UP!!!!!
Easyjet operate Austrian registered aircraft in and out of the UK on a regular basis. They also used Easyjet Swiss aircrafr before and since Brexit.
Who cares anyway

EasyJet Europe/Swiss do not operate UK - UK or UK to non EU routes. Thatís the difference.

TartinTon 14th Mar 2022 11:25


Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot (Post 11199536)
100% this. Lot of people being taken for a ride here, they're simply going to damage BA and EI with no business case to make money on their own then drop both routes as soon as they can flog off the slots.

Give me strength...I'll say this slowly so the hard of thinking can get it....They can't sell the slots. I'll say that again....They can't sell the slots. That's right, the slots are not and never will be theirs to sell as they are remedy slots and would be returned to BA.

They can, however, be held onto and utilised and become part of the enterprise value to any prospective buyer of the company.

Get the picture now?

bean 14th Mar 2022 11:32


Originally Posted by The96er (Post 11199709)
EasyJet Europe/Swiss do not operate UK - UK or UK to non EU routes. Thatís the difference.

WRONG
Easyjet Swiss can operate any Easyjet route with their aircraft. When it arrives in the UK from Switzerland can operate 2 sectors on behalf 9f Easyjet UK or Easyjet Europe. The costs are picked up by whichever Easyjet company is the lessee

SWBKCB 14th Mar 2022 13:33


Originally Posted by TartinTon (Post 11199710)
Give me strength...I'll say this slowly so the hard of thinking can get it....They can't sell the slots. I'll say that again....They can't sell the slots. That's right, the slots are not and never will be theirs to sell as they are remedy slots and would be returned to BA.

Is there not a time limit after which they become their's, if they are still being used?



The96er 14th Mar 2022 13:46


Originally Posted by SWBKCB (Post 11199780)
Is there not a time limit after which they become their's, if they are still being used?

Yes there is. I think it was 6 consecutive season (I stand to be corrected). I don't recall LBA being one of the remedy routes though (Assuming they are to start LHR-LBA). Although, I seem to remember the Heathrow authority holding slots back for domestic routes now that we've left the E.U. I assume this is where Loganair have gained their slots for IOM.

globetrotter79 14th Mar 2022 14:29


Originally Posted by SWBKCB (Post 11199780)
Is there not a time limit after which they become their's, if they are still being used?

By the letter of the remedy agreement - no, never. The slots would always be BA's and if the remedy operator ever ceased to use them for whatever reason they would revert to BA.
The rules stated that after 6 consecutive seasons the operator had the freedom to use the slots for routes other than Aberdeen and Edinburgh.
(Old) flybe allegedly attempted to legally test the ownership question, no doubt new flybe are doing the same...

There is also the question whether or not new flybe's use of the slots will be seen as a continuation of old flybe's use - in other words whether they are released from having to operate Aberdeen and Edinburgh for the 6 seasons. The fact that there are persistent rumours about other flybe Heathrow routes about to be announced might indicate that they've reached agreement at least on that element (or would like the market to believe they have)?

Skipness One Foxtrot 14th Mar 2022 15:28


Originally Posted by bean (Post 11199707)
OH I GIVE UP!!!!!
Easyjet operate Austrian registered aircraft in and out of the UK on a regular basis. They also used Easyjet Swiss aircrafr before and since Brexit.
Who cares anyway

The CAA regulators care. I thought you were a pilot?

Originally Posted by TartinTon (Post 11199710)
Give me strength...I'll say this slowly so the hard of thinking can get it....They can't sell the slots. I'll say that again....They can't sell the slots. That's right, the slots are not and never will be theirs to sell as they are remedy slots and would be returned to BA.
They can, however, be held onto and utilised and become part of the enterprise value to any prospective buyer of the company.
Get the picture now?

I understand that IMHO flybe will never make money operating LHR-BHD/LBA on their own merits in those markets. So the slot play only works if BA buy flybe? This seems remote in the extreme, and so the new flybe will be flying aircraft and crews on loss making routes for an extended period, from day one with no path to profitability, on LHR-LBA/BHD/EDI/ABZ due to there being a better offering in market (ABZ/EDI/BHD) or no market worth serving (LHR-LBA that doesn't feed long haul).

bean 14th Mar 2022 16:16

Skipness. A good example of not being able to absorb information ih the fact that you think i said i was a pilot!!!
The CAA don't care as they are clearly party to the arrangements

BA318 14th Mar 2022 17:07


Originally Posted by bean (Post 11199841)
Skipness. A good example of not being able to absorb information ih the fact that you think i said i was a pilot!!!
The CAA don't care as they are clearly party to the arrangements

Please give it a rest with the unnecessary aggressive and rude comments. Everyone else is able to disagree and put their points across without it.

If the investors think they will get a return on their investment flying Q400s from Leeds to Heathrow then good luck to them. I suppose it will be the negativity on here that does them in.

CabinCrewe 14th Mar 2022 18:24


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11199867)
I suppose it will be the negativity on here that does them in.

The flying and paying public donít give two hoots about perpetual negativity on hereÖ

BA318 14th Mar 2022 19:30


Originally Posted by CabinCrewe (Post 11199889)
The flying and paying public donít give two hoots about perpetual negativity on hereÖ

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying the route is so likely to be hugely loss making that when it ends or the carrier does the same cheerleaders will blame the negativity of us because we didnít cheer for Flybe loud enough.

commit aviation 14th Mar 2022 20:27

Is there any reference to these being the BA remedy slots?
Is it possible with the downturn in business and the increase in "use it or lose it" percentages for summer that either they are borrowing the slots from another airline in the short term or have gained the slots in their own right because other airlines have handed them back?
The first seems the more likely I would have thought.

Albert Hall 15th Mar 2022 17:29

No announcement tomorrow. Well at least not anything of significance, Iím told.


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