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Southampton-3

Old 3rd Aug 2022, 08:23
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new routes - new airlines

It is good to see SOU getting back on its feet, and we have an increasing choice steadily being added, plus the BA summer leisure flights.

Having the KLM AMS getting back to a morning and an evening flight is great so you can connect there onwards with a great choice.
It would be good to see the Air France Paris CDG come back (KLM partner) - CDG again has huge connectivity.
KLM and AF are also a Virgin Atlantic Frequent Flyer Partner so if you want like me, to go to Manila I can use my Virgin Points to fly SOU-AMS-MNL with great connections.
I am also doing this next year for a Kenya Safari SOU-AMS-NBO/JRO.

Aer Lingus Dublin DUB could be attractive - good connections there for USA and Canada are possible, and you can usually pre-clear USA immigration at DUB too.

This is the business that hopefully will start to increase for SOU that make these feeder flights work, but with the right marketing and support of Travel Agents we would hope to see them busy.

The reason Edelweiss and Eurowings added Newquay (again) is due to the huge (seasonal) German tourist market attracted to Cornwall, in which the popular novels about Cornish life and its families penned by Rosamund Pilcher, and BBC TV's Poldark play a huge part in that attraction;
but as for LH LX or Eurowings looking at SOU, perhaps maybe they are looking and talking>?

Other ideas for new airlines (that's all we have is ''ideas'') getting attracted with a Runway extension - Well the likes of our near neighbour EU airlines surely any extension is hypothetical, and not an issue as they have types that can fly in now -
Trouble is an A319 or an A220 are big planes to fill, likewise so is an EMB-190 with 90+ seats.
And loaded CRJ's are too slippery for SOU IIRC.

I don't see Easy Jet in the near term adding any more routes at SOU - so apart from their Winter GVA 'Ski' series (which are mirrored also out of Bournemouth) I reckon not for now.
What I do see is Ryanair steadily increasing their Bournemouth presence (year round) which no doubt Easy Jet feels that any such in-road for them at SOU is maybe a risk too much>?
Easy Jet are not in the best of shape this year, so imminent expansions for them surely will be limited;
EZY are slowly returning to Southend SEN (just)
Thus IMHO I do not see SOU going ORANGE anytime soon.

As for Flybe - Will we see an increase and some more destinations added ?

With utmost respect to the Poster above -
''Someone has to serve the huge Eastern European contingent''
Umm they've all gone home old chap - !
Hampshire Dorset and Devon have lost many 1000's of workers that came here for permanent and seasonal jobs.
That ship has sailed locally except for stronger contingents more in the London areas.
Again it is Ryanair though who has kept a couple of strong year round Eastern Europe destinations from BOH, plus have added BOH-Budapest (a great leisure destination)
Will that guest worker market come back>? Maybe if we relax work visas.


SOU could benefit from BA's domestic woes at London Airport....>?

Why not try SOU ? - This is a great time for SOU's marketing to tell folk ''we are here''
SOU are offering a good and increasing choice of UK domestic flights and to Eire and the C.I.
(Plus a great choice of BACF sunshine and leisure routes choice at weekends to France, Faro, Mykonos and Spain/Balearics. (also a BACF Edinburgh)

Only an hour on the train or less to SOU Parkway station from WATERLOO, Clapham Jctn and WOK. (OK don't mention the rail strikes LOL)
3 minute walk to check-in or security - Check-in times no more than 1 hour or less.
Car Park is also superb and across the road from Terminal - Just off the M3 and M27.

Marketing could work with the current airlines and get this out there - Maybe offer a free rail ticket with a Full Fare flight ticket>?
It's all about PR....

Just my Tuppence.






Last edited by rog747; 3rd Aug 2022 at 08:46.
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 08:47
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Originally Posted by rog747
It is good to see SOU getting back on its feet, and we have an increasing choice steadily being added, plus the BA summer leisure flights.

Having the KLM AMS back to a morning and an evening flight is great so you can connect there onwards with a great choice.
It would be good to see the Air France Paris CDG come back (KLM partner) - CDG again has huge connectivity.
KLM and AF are also a Virgin Atlantic Frequent Flyer Partner so if you want like me, to go to Manila I can use my Virgin Points to fly SOU-AMS-MNL with great connections.
I am also doing this next year for a Kenya Safari SOU-AMS-NBO/JRO.

Aer Lingus Dublin DUB could be attractive - good connections there for USA and Canada are possible, and you can usually pre-clear USA immigration at DUB too.

This is the business that hopefully will start to increase for SOU that make these feeder flights work, but with the right marketing and support of Travel Agents we would hope to see them busy.

The reason Edelweiss and Eurowings added Newquay (again) is due to the huge (seasonal) German tourist market attracted to Cornwall, in which the popular novels about Cornish life and its families penned by Rosamund Pilcher, and BBC TV's Poldark play a huge part in that attraction;
but as for LH LX or Eurowings looking at SOU, perhaps maybe they are looking and talking>?

Other ideas for new airlines (that's all we have is ''ideas'') getting attracted with a Runway extension - Well the likes of our near neighbour EU airlines surely any extension is hypothetical, and not an issue as they have types that can fly in now -
Trouble is an A319 or an A220 are big planes to fill, likewise so is an EMB-190 with 90+ seats.
And loaded CRJ's are too slippery for SOU IIRC.

I don't see Easy Jet in the near term adding any more routes at SOU - so apart from their Winter GVA 'Ski' series (which are mirrored also out of Bournemouth) I reckon not for now.
What I do see is Ryanair steadily increasing their Bournemouth presence (year round) which no doubt Easy Jet feels that any such in-road for them at SOU is maybe a risk too much>?
Easy Jet are not in the best of shape this year, so imminent expansions for them surely will be limited;
EZY are slowly returning to Southend SEN (just)
Thus IMHO I do not see SOU going ORANGE anytime soon.

As for Flybe - Will we see an increase and some more destinations added ?

With utmost respect to the Poster above -
''Someone has to serve the huge Eastern European contingent''
Umm they've all gone home old chap - !
Hampshire Dorset and Devon have lost many 1000's of workers that came here for permanent and seasonal jobs.
That ship has sailed locally except for stronger contingents more in the London areas.
Again it is Ryanair though who has kept a couple of strong year round Eastern Europe destinations from BOH, plus have added BOH-Budapest (a great leisure destination)
Will that guest worker market come back>? Maybe if we relax work visas.


SOU could benefit from BA's domestic woes at London Airport....>?

Why not try SOU ? - This is a great time for SOU's marketing to tell folk ''we are here''
SOU are offering a good and increasing choice of UK domestic flights and to Eire and the C.I.
(Plus a great choice of BACF sunshine and leisure routes choice at weekends to France, Faro, Mykonos and Spain/Balearics. (also a BACF Edinburgh)

Only an hour on the train or less to SOU Parkway station from WATERLOO, Clapham Jctn and WOK. (OK don't mention the rail strikes LOL)
3 minute walk to check-in or security - Check-in times no more than 1 hour or less.
Car Park is also superb and across the road from Terminal - Just off the M3 and M27.

Marketing could work with the current airlines and get this out there - Maybe offer a free rail ticket with a Full Fare flight ticket>?
It's all about PR....

Just my Tuppence.
Iím not sure we can say all Eastern European immigrants went home. 6million people applied for settled status after Brexit (of course not all are from Eastern Europe) but that is nearly 10% of the population. They certainly havenít just left. Most are far more integrated into British life.
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 08:50
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Rog747
very refreshing to read your take on the runway extension and a much more realistic analysis,I'm afraid the usual suspects on this forum get carried away.
It is true Ryanair are doing very well at Bournemouth and continue to add routes,indeed Bournemouth pax numbers continue to climb and look very healthy.
With 2023 looking pretty tough for airlines ,I can't see any reason why Easy would want to start operations from SOU and complete with Ryanair just down the road.
Southampton will no doubt continue to recover slowly ,but will have the extra runway length for maximum loads with existing aircraft.
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 09:31
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RW20 - your biased continues Iím afraid and its always about them versus us, BOH is thriving v SOU growing slowly nonsense. Do you honestly believe that the airport are spending large amounts of money on the extension just to satisfy existing airlines and their extra load capacity? Itís been raised by SOU on numerous occasions that they are looking for a LCC in some capacity to take the airport to the next level and Iím sure this is indeed what will happen for the future. Do I think whomever will open a base initially, no, but I can foresee the likes of EZY testing the water for next summer with a few away base routes. So stop this rubbish about competition from Ryanair at BOH and wake up to the fact that other airlines exist and will want to attempt market share on select routes. Another dark horse could be the return of Volotea!

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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 09:32
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Originally Posted by BA318
Iím not sure we can say all Eastern European immigrants went home. 6 million people applied for settled status after Brexit (of course not all are from Eastern Europe) but that is nearly 10% of the population. They certainly havenít just left. Most are far more integrated into British life.
Of course it is difficult for us to know the pertinent numbers of those who got the new permits with leave to remain, or those that got them and lost their jobs and went home, or those who already had permanent residency and long settled anyway, but we are speaking locally here about catchment areas for Flight Ops to/from SOU serving those Eastern European areas.

What I do know is that the Tourist and Hospitality sector in this area (plus many other Trades, and the SOU based cruise ships), plus in the locales adjoining, the SW region Dorset/Devon have seen those people simply disappear and have gone home.
They have left - Fact, and in large numbers -
Once upon a time you could easily get staff - now it's nigh on impossible, especially in the Tourism areas, which is what we thrive on down here.

Whether it be to EU/Brexit implications, and also laid off due to Covid-19 that facts show that 1000's are no longer here working.

So any airline thinking of flying those Routes in or of SOU would not IMHO have any business model, especially when Ryanair are there doing it up the road at BOH.

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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 09:35
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There are a very large number of airlines operating in Europe. However, the number of airlines that are not already at SOU but might credibly be interested is modest
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 09:47
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All this talk of a Ryanair love in with BOH, has anyone thought they might test out SOU with their SFP 800ís just like they did SEN?
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 09:59
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Originally Posted by SKOJB
All this talk of a Ryanair love in with BOH, has anyone thought they might test out SOU with their SFP 800ís just like they did SEN?
Probably the terms under which Ryanair might "test out SOU" would be if the Airport paid them to do so, even getting everything for free probably wouldn't cut the mustard! With a large investment in a runway extension to pay for shelling out more cash to get a carrier such as Ryanair, or say Wizz in would probably be a poor use of shareholders money.
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 10:09
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Originally Posted by stewyb
RW20 - your biased continues Iím afraid and its always about them versus us, BOH is thriving v SOU growing slowly nonsense. Do you honestly believe that the airport are spending large amounts of money on the extension just to satisfy existing airlines and their extra load capacity? Itís been raised by SOU on numerous occasions that they are looking for a LCC in some capacity to take the airport to the next level and Iím sure this is indeed what will happen for the future. Do I think whomever will open a base initially, no, but I can foresee the likes of EZY testing the water for next summer with a few away base routes. So stop this rubbish about competition from Ryanair at BOH and wake up to the fact that other airlines exist and will want to take their own market share on select routes. Another dark horse could be the return of Volotea!
To be fair to RW20 his response to my post is a breath of fresh air, and puts his head above the parapet -
Why not cut him some slack, or else ''why not attack me and my post'' lol

I'm not really interested in anyone's previous negative or seemingly biased posts, nor of the many who have rose tinted plane-spotter specs on LOL -
We are in the here and now.
Someone nicely asked here what the future holds 'if and when the runway work gets done', and also about the imminent future -
SOU is not doing bad - yes BOH is doing good v SOU growing nice and steadily --- So lets just all offer our opines, break it down as to the why and wherefore, and everyone has the right to enjoy to comment so we can nicely exchange views (and beg to differ of course)

SOU may like the idea of a LCC base, but we now have lived in different times, but thankfully with lights at the end of the tunnel for steady recovery.
But Orange is not our colour du jour.

SOU have also clearly maintained all along that the longer runway will in the main, be able to offer existing aircraft types and its airlines their extra load capacity without runway restrictions in most cases -
It does not open up, nor have they implicated, a whole catalogue of super new medium haul routes, nor can land or take off (economically, or perhaps operationally safely) bigger Jets like the 737-800 or the A321.
SOU cannot park them anyway.

As for TUI, they seem well happy to use and fill their own 98 seat BACF weekly Jet to Palma, plus buy in more seats on the 2 other PMI scheduled BACF flights and on the Ibiza.
TUI has done well this summer at SOU -
If BACF remain for 2023 then I doubt TUI will be returning a 156/180 seat Volotea A319/320 series in the near term (which will still have payload issues from time to time)
TUI have given a lot of work this summer to Alba Star from its regionals, BUT they use a 189 seat 737-800 which does not fit at SOU -
They do still have a -400 series - just the one and it is getting old, 170/174 seats.
The 300/400 series at SOU was once a perfect fit - The new runway work today would ensure that Ops with that type had no payload issues.

Verona is one flight missing (was summer seasonal WEDS and SAT) but it was full (Inghams and TUI Lakes Mountains sold packages on this)
was on a FLYBE Q400, 78 seats.

Enjoy your day! Cold and wet here today - Missing Mykonos lol
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 10:12
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The Main Man himself Mr MOL at Ryanair said on TV about SOU over 2 years ago ---- we cannot go to SOU

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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 15:32
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Basing a couple of aircraft at smaller regional airports doesn't fit the LCC model.
Consider some of the failures:
WizzAir at Doncaster
EasyJet/Ryanair/WizzAir at Southend
TUIfly at Coventry
Jet2 at Blackpool
EasyJet at EMA
BMI Baby at Teesside
... and I'm sure there are others.
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 15:53
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Actually, Covid aside, Easy Jet was doing just fine and rather dandy at Southend until Ryanair came along, pushed in and royally screwed it all up, and then you know what>?
They left - well I never.
They pushed Easyjet out of STN too.

BOH has had some early on LCC attempts - all failed.

I'm always wondering as to why Jet2 has not gone back 'home' to BOH - ?
Are they being very wise.....
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 16:15
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I'm always wondering as to why Jet2 has not gone back 'home' to BOH - ?
Are they being very wise.....
Or maybe they were / are waiting for the position around the runway extension at SOU to be confirmed. Which it just has been ....
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 17:19
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Originally Posted by Albert Hall
Or maybe they were / are waiting for the position around the runway extension at SOU to be confirmed. Which it just has been ....
Ok, but unless Jet2 intend to fly 25yo 737-300's and 757's out of SOU (they still have some of those BTW) then it aint gonna happen. #737-800
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 17:32
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Originally Posted by rog747
Ok, but unless Jet2 intend to fly 25yo 737-300's and 757's out of SOU (they still have some of those BTW) then it aint gonna happen. #737-800
Donít they also have a load of SFP 800ís like RYR operated out of SEN?
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Old 3rd Aug 2022, 23:43
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Originally Posted by SKOJB
Donít they also have a load of SFP 800ís like RYR operated out of SEN?
Arenít Jet 2 now ditching Boeing for Airbus, which presumably will be Neos?
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Old 4th Aug 2022, 06:56
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Originally Posted by TCAS FAN
Aren’t Jet 2 now ditching Boeing for Airbus, which presumably will be Neos?
That's correct - they are currently operating 10 A321CEO's (this figure includes leased machines for summer season) with up to 75 NEO's on order/option.
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Old 4th Aug 2022, 10:14
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I know it's fun to engage in speculation, but surely there won't be too long to wait to find out what if any new airlines/routes SOU will see in S23. If SOU plan to have the extension operational by April next year then it'll be available for summer operations, and those flights will go on sale over the next few weeks/months. So I reckon by the end of October/November we should have an idea of any new players entering the SOU market.
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Old 4th Aug 2022, 11:35
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Originally Posted by The Nutts Mutts
I know it's fun to engage in speculation, but surely there won't be too long to wait to find out what if any new airlines/routes SOU will see in S23.
If SOU plan to have the extension operational by April next year then it'll be available for summer operations, and those flights will go on sale over the next few weeks/months. So I reckon by the end of October/November we should have an idea of any new players entering the SOU market.
Just to reaffirm that the 737-800NG (Ryanair TUI, Alba Star, Air Europa, and Jet2) and the A321 (Jet2 EZY etc etc) cannot economically fly in or out of SOU -
By that it means taking a full or nearly full ECONOMICAL load of 189 or 210 Passengers and their luggage on or off the runway at SOU without Payload restrictions -
Even with the new 164m extension.

Some here mention Southend - SOU is not SEN;
SOU has differing and restrictive approach/landing and take off/clearways/noise criteria to add in to the calculations which restricts the 738 and A321.
Yes, we have seen both types at SOU in the past but these flights are usually Football, Lapland, or special charters/one-offs.
This affirmation is from the SOU Ops Directors own dialogue recently, and in 2021.
MOL also said 2 years ago that we (RYR) cannot go to SOU with our aircraft - and with that he clearly means ''without a weight penalty'' -
something which RYR would not regularly counter in their business model.


All SOU can attract and they have said that as much see the following taken from their own Master Plan published 2017. (MP covers 2017-2037)
(Obviously written before Flybe collapse and the Pandemic)
quote -
''Offering our airlines in the medium termis traffic forecast based on the level of market capture of passenger demand within the Southampton Airport catchment area.
Due to the short length of the existing runway, Southampton Airport currently has a limited route network range with services primarily provided by regional airlines such as Flybe operating medium sized (70-120 seats) regional aircraft such as Bombardier Q400 and Embraer 175/195 jets.
The main assumption made for the medium term forecast is that a runway starter extension would allow the larger narrow-body aircraft, being the current types of the Airbus A319/A320 and possibly the Boeing 737-800 with 150-190 seats, to operate without major payload restrictions to a more distant and much wider route network from Southampton Airport, covering a range of European destinations.
The investment in the runway starter extension should enable Southampton Airport to attract new carriers to both capture existing demand and stimulate significant traffic growth. This additional traffic would in the main be passengers from the Southampton Airport existing catchment who currently fly primarily from the London airports, since the destinations are not currently served from Southampton Airport.Southampton Airport has for many years lagged behind other UK regionals''
- unquote

So pre-Pandemic the above quoted shows clearly what SOU wanted to attract, but now (5 years on) of course we see a whole different aviation world emerge, for now.
The runway cannot go beyond the current length with the planned 164m extension - that is clearly shown on the land maps of the Master Plan up to 2037.
There is no more land they can take.

If they do not start building works very soon, now that Appeals debacle (?) hopefully is finally over, then when do we see the extended runway operational>?
​​​​​​​next summer or summer 2024>?
Anyone planning to operate for next summer needs to starts planning now - with no extra Tarmac going down, then my money is on 2 years time.
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Old 4th Aug 2022, 13:18
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Originally Posted by rog747
Just to reaffirm that the 737-800NG (Ryanair TUI, Alba Star, Air Europa, and Jet2) and the A321 (Jet2 EZY etc etc) cannot economically fly in or out of SOU -
By that it means taking a full or nearly full ECONOMICAL load of 189 or 210 Passengers and their luggage on or off the runway at SOU without Payload restrictions -
Even with the new 164m extension.

Some here mention Southend - SOU is not SEN;
SOU has differing and restrictive approach/landing and take off/clearways/noise criteria to add in to the calculations which restricts the 738 and A321.
Yes, we have seen both types at SOU in the past but these flights are usually Football, Lapland, or special charters/one-offs.
This affirmation is from the SOU Ops Directors own dialogue recently, and in 2021.
MOL also said 2 years ago that we (RYR) cannot go to SOU with our aircraft - and with that he clearly means ''without a weight penalty'' -
something which RYR would not regularly counter in their business model.


All SOU can attract and they have said that as much see the following taken from their own Master Plan published 2017. (MP covers 2017-2037)
(Obviously written before Flybe collapse and the Pandemic)
quote -
''Offering our airlines in the medium termis traffic forecast based on the level of market capture of passenger demand within the Southampton Airport catchment area.
Due to the short length of the existing runway, Southampton Airport currently has a limited route network range with services primarily provided by regional airlines such as Flybe operating medium sized (70-120 seats) regional aircraft such as Bombardier Q400 and Embraer 175/195 jets.
The main assumption made for the medium term forecast is that a runway starter extension would allow the larger narrow-body aircraft, being the current types of the Airbus A319/A320 and possibly the Boeing 737-800 with 150-190 seats, to operate without major payload restrictions to a more distant and much wider route network from Southampton Airport, covering a range of European destinations.
The investment in the runway starter extension should enable Southampton Airport to attract new carriers to both capture existing demand and stimulate significant traffic growth. This additional traffic would in the main be passengers from the Southampton Airport existing catchment who currently fly primarily from the London airports, since the destinations are not currently served from Southampton Airport.Southampton Airport has for many years lagged behind other UK regionals''
- unquote

So pre-Pandemic the above quoted shows clearly what SOU wanted to attract, but now (5 years on) of course we see a whole different aviation world emerge, for now.
The runway cannot go beyond the current length with the planned 164m extension - that is clearly shown on the land maps of the Master Plan up to 2037.
There is no more land they can take.

If they do not start building works very soon, now that Appeals debacle (?) hopefully is finally over, then when do we see the extended runway operational>?
next summer or summer 2024>?
Anyone planning to operate for next summer needs to starts planning now - with no extra Tarmac going down, then my money is on 2 years time.
The runway extension will be complete by April 2023 so letís wait and see if any additional growth materialises thereafter!
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