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Old 20th Feb 2023, 22:40
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Originally Posted by Sotonsean
​​​​​​I'm sure that Heathrow Airport Limited would like Vietnam Airlines to remain at the United Kingdom's major hub airport.

Can HAL over rule ACL in situations like this?
See earlier link. ACL is Heathrow's contractor for slot allocation. Who do you think calls the shots ?
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Old 20th Feb 2023, 22:43
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Originally Posted by Sotonsean
I don't think that STN is really suitable for Vietnam Airlines, a return to LGW would have been a better option
Why do you think that, out of interest?

There are a few airlines Iíve long thought donít particularly need to be at LHR and VN are one of them. I doubt they provide much feed this end and the network their end is limited, mainly domestic which is most likely leisure dominated.
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Old 20th Feb 2023, 23:51
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Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1
Why do you think that, out of interest?

There are a few airlines Iíve long thought donít particularly need to be at LHR and VN are one of them. I doubt they provide much feed this end and the network their end is limited, mainly domestic which is most likely leisure dominated.
It wasn't anything personal or to the detriment of London Stansted Airport.

Having previously served LGW prior to relocating to LHR I would have thought that the former would have been the preferred option rather than STN.

Vietnam Airlines a SkyTeam alliance member and an airline with all the benefits of Terminal 4 at LHR, only LGW can only really replicate that.

I agree with your assumption regarding some airlines currently serving LHR although there are not many.

But in my opinion I don't include Vietnam Airlines in that very short list.

STN is a fantastic airport and I wish there was more long haul destinations but I honestly can't understand why Vietnam Airlines would look at STN over a return to LGW.

STN is great for Emirates for various reasons and I can't understand why Jetblue have totally overlooked the airport.

If for example Vietnam Airlines did indeed move to STN it could in some way be a catalyst for others to do the same, even if it was a split operation with LHR. "Ethiopian Airlines springs to mind as I type that".
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 04:54
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Your synopsis misses out key ingredient Vietnam has access to the ENTIRE Sky network, massive VFR leisure and cargo demand 400 or so miles south in Paris .

Heathrow ( London) isnít their biggest European market by any stretch.

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Old 21st Feb 2023, 05:55
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And the key ingredient of losing $1m a day last year. If they can't afford to be at LHR, and just want to serve London maybe they got a better offer from STN.
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 10:00
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I think it would be odd for LHR to actively look to lose a daily long haul flag carrier flying a B789 long haul in favour of adding (for example) another Eurowings A320 to Germany. What's the footfall and retail revenue comparison? I hope some kind of accomadation might happen.
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 17:04
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Originally Posted by Rutan16
Your synopsis misses out key ingredient Vietnam has access to the ENTIRE Sky network, massive VFR leisure and cargo demand 400 or so miles south in Paris .

Heathrow ( London) isnít their biggest European market by any stretch.
I wasn't suggesting that LHR was Vietnam Airlines biggest European market. No where in my post did I mention that. And of course I'm totally aware of the fact that Vietnam Airlines serve CDG, A SkyTeam fortress.

Its obvious that your not getting my point.

The point is, why would HAL want to lose a long haul flag carrier to a country unserved by any other airline.

FYI....It's only 290 miles between LHR and CDG, not 400 or so miles.
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 17:29
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
And the key ingredient of losing $1m a day last year. If they can't afford to be at LHR, and just want to serve London maybe they got a better offer from STN.
Yes agreed .
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 17:39
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Originally Posted by Sotonsean
I wasn't suggesting that LHR was Vietnam Airlines biggest European market. No where in my post did I mention that. And of course I'm totally aware of the fact that Vietnam Airlines serve CDG, A SkyTeam fortress.

Its obvious that your not getting my point.

The point is, why would HAL want to lose a long haul flag carrier to a country unserved by any other airline.

FYI....It's only 290 miles between LHR and CDG, not 400 or so miles.
Plenty of carriers over the years have been “forced” out of Heathrow and some yet returned . As other have said it’s not bilaterals here is simply availability of slots and frankly HAL couldn’t care less for the users of slots or indeed number of carrier's

If they did they would demonstrate that by persuading BA ( IAG) to widen their portfolio beyond the “bazillion” US cities and towns into more of the developing economies ( They can’t as the carrier and parents rightly make there route decision based their own bottom line !)

We are returning to a more normal ACL and slot allocation process.

As for the pedantry on the mileage - pff and just a distracting technique.

The fact is Vietnam aren’t an important carrier especially in the UK market , indeed given there financial condition , retrenching to Paris and allowing AFKL to distribute would probably help their bottom line and reduce the losses.






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Old 21st Feb 2023, 17:54
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The point is, why would HAL want to lose a long haul flag carrier to a country unserved by any other airline.
Do HAL have any say in the matter?
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 17:59
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HAL have the ability to significantly discount fees for a carrier-route combination if it's likely to bring in a lot of retail spending in shops in departure area
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 18:01
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
HAL have the ability to significantly discount fees for a carrier-route combination if it's likely to bring in a lot of retail spending in shops in departure area
...assuming the airline is in possession of slots which allow them to operate into LHR
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 18:07
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Originally Posted by Rutan16
Plenty of carriers over the years have been ďforcedĒ out of Heathrow and some yet returned . As other have said itís not bilaterals here is simply availability of slots and frankly HAL couldnít care less for the users of slots or indeed number of carrier's.
The fact is Vietnam arenít an important carrier especially in the UK market , indeed given there financial condition , retrenching to Paris and allowing AFKL to distribute would probably help their bottom line and reduce the losses.
HAL do care about who uses the slots, that's why they have a pricing model that penalises smaller aircraft. They want Emirates 6 x daily A380s before a similar volume of ATRs.. Losing two long haul destinations in SGN and HAN is something I would say they care about, maybe just not enough to intervene. Does anyone know by how much they missed the use it or lose it criteria? It's not as if they've been absent from LHR entirely.
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 18:53
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
HAL do care about who uses the slots, that's why they have a pricing model that penalises smaller aircraft. They want Emirates 6 x daily A380s before a similar volume of ATRs.. Losing two long haul destinations in SGN and HAN is something I would say they care about, maybe just not enough to intervene. Does anyone know by how much they missed the use it or lose it criteria? It's not as if they've been absent from LHR entirely.
Best post by far, absolutely spot on.
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 19:01
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Yes HAL can offer inducements/disincentives but they have no control over slots or there use. Do we know Vietnam have lost slots through use it or l;ose it? Lots of other possibilities - where did the slots come from? If leased maybe the owner wants them back or they can't justify the cost.
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 19:46
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Vietnam got newly created slots back in 2015
https://aviationweek.com/heathrow-re...lines-services (paywalled article but in the 'snippet' it mentions LHR worked with NATS to create the slots)
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 20:34
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6
HAL have the ability to significantly discount fees for a carrier-route combination if it's likely to bring in a lot of retail spending in shops in departure area
Yet can’t provide slots as ACL determine those, so that’s sort of a fool’s errand.

Conversation
Hi Air Xyz I’d love for you to serve abc and I’ll give you a preferential rate for terminal services .

Customer does that include slot access?

HAL well only if you can fit in Saturday evening at 2130,
Otherwise it’s out to market for you , or wait in the ACL queue !
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 20:47
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
HAL do care about who uses the slots, that's why they have a pricing model that penalises smaller aircraft. They want Emirates 6 x daily A380s before a similar volume of ATRs.. Losing two long haul destinations in SGN and HAN is something I would say they care about, maybe just not enough to intervene. Does anyone know by how much they missed the use it or lose it criteria? It's not as if they've been absent from LHR entirely.
That was my point about BA ( IAG) really; they obviously prefer heavy land fees over an ATR sure; however they donít particularly care about where they come or go from ( indeed because of other agencies they canít !)

Yet they want a network ( well actually politicians do ) yet canít accommodate the range of feeders others can . Yes thatís the foundation of the third runway debate however letís be honest the domestics havenít been a roaring success have they ?

Itís a double bind,, when a part of your business strategies are either impacted by price capping and/or the prime operating asset ( long strips of concrete) is managed by another .



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Old 21st Feb 2023, 20:49
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They create new slots every so often with the help of NATS and modified airspace utilisation however they aren’t for the benefit of any specific carrier !

That a pure fluff piece .
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 21:47
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Originally Posted by Skipness One Foxtrot
HAL do care about who uses the slots, that's why they have a pricing model that penalises smaller aircraft. They want Emirates 6 x daily A380s before a similar volume of ATRs.. Losing two long haul destinations in SGN and HAN is something I would say they care about
Thereís a third way no one seems to have mentioned - that the released slots could go to a new entrant or existing operator for long haul routes. I doubt the airport would be sentimental over a particular carrier or far-flung destination if there was prospect of an alternative who would deliver similar pax numbers and potentially greater premium spend in the terminal.
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