SOUTHEND 5
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By the time you add the waiting time for the bus to leave, paid the driver for the fare and the travel time of the bus some of the advantages are lost. Which station would be used and what is the rail travel time to London from that station? Are the trains any better?
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LTNman
Well the trains are certainly far better. Air conditioned, quieter and smoother and the service is far more reliable. c2c are rated one of the best rail operators in the UK and Abelio Greater Anglia just about the worst.
I think the fastest journey time from Southend Central to Fenchurch Street is under 40 minutes whereas from the Airport to Liverpool Street is about 55 minutes, always providing there are no delays, which are an almost daily occurrence, or a replacement bus service is operating over some of the route, which happens on a lot of weekends.
Well the trains are certainly far better. Air conditioned, quieter and smoother and the service is far more reliable. c2c are rated one of the best rail operators in the UK and Abelio Greater Anglia just about the worst.
I think the fastest journey time from Southend Central to Fenchurch Street is under 40 minutes whereas from the Airport to Liverpool Street is about 55 minutes, always providing there are no delays, which are an almost daily occurrence, or a replacement bus service is operating over some of the route, which happens on a lot of weekends.
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Is it just me that thinks this is bonkers?
You build a brand new train station 100 steps away from the terminal, but then offer a bus ride which in reality is going to take 15-20 mins to catch a train that takes 15 mins less, but then drops you at a station with very limited underground access.
Why??
I applaud the effort at getting earlier and later services in and out of SEN, but surely the political will behind this should be focused on the existing train services and getting a better service with earlier and later trains, and sorting out the charging issues?
I see no reason why they can't run early and late express services (even express throughout the day) which only stop at say Rayleigh, Billericay, Stratford and London … certainly this would solve the early and late issues.
Plus, the line will get better rolling stock in due course.
But for me, putting on a bus service to train station 15 mins away when there is one right next to you is just crazy, or have I gone mad?
You build a brand new train station 100 steps away from the terminal, but then offer a bus ride which in reality is going to take 15-20 mins to catch a train that takes 15 mins less, but then drops you at a station with very limited underground access.
Why??
I applaud the effort at getting earlier and later services in and out of SEN, but surely the political will behind this should be focused on the existing train services and getting a better service with earlier and later trains, and sorting out the charging issues?
I see no reason why they can't run early and late express services (even express throughout the day) which only stop at say Rayleigh, Billericay, Stratford and London … certainly this would solve the early and late issues.
Plus, the line will get better rolling stock in due course.
But for me, putting on a bus service to train station 15 mins away when there is one right next to you is just crazy, or have I gone mad?
Last edited by cumbrianboy; 28th Dec 2015 at 15:57. Reason: typos
As I said in my post earlier today I'm not sure if the currentl lack of early and late trains in the real driver behind the C2C initiative. Maybe they think that they can attract additional passengers to their cheaper line throughout the day by providing a shuttle bus to SEN from either Southend Central, Westcliff or Leigh-on-Sea. Baseline Google Maps journey times for a shuttle bus would be 8, 11 & 12 minutes respectively.
I suspect it's C2C and Southend Council who are pushing this initiative with SEN being involved on the basis of agreeing to accommodate the shuttle bus.
Cumbrianboy
I agree totally with your logic but the outcomes that you sensibly suggest just don't seem to be achievable, for whatever reason(s), so an alternative third party solution does have merit. If Leigh-on-Sea station was used for the shuttle it would offer approximately a 30 minutes gain in arrival/departure time morning and evening. Train journey time to Fenchurch Street is 47 minutes.
I suspect it's C2C and Southend Council who are pushing this initiative with SEN being involved on the basis of agreeing to accommodate the shuttle bus.
Cumbrianboy
I agree totally with your logic but the outcomes that you sensibly suggest just don't seem to be achievable, for whatever reason(s), so an alternative third party solution does have merit. If Leigh-on-Sea station was used for the shuttle it would offer approximately a 30 minutes gain in arrival/departure time morning and evening. Train journey time to Fenchurch Street is 47 minutes.
Last edited by Expressflight; 28th Dec 2015 at 16:56. Reason: additional info
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I agree that currently no solution seems to be imminent, but I also suspect that is due to the bitter row between Great Anglia and Stobart.
However, have you tried driving from SEN to Leigh on Sea station? It can take 15 mins, it can take 40 … The A127 and the A13 both have to be navigated and it's not always pretty and prone to delays, especially around busy times.
I still think if the local council, airport and MPs all got involved (which they are doing for this C2C initiative) but focused their energy on the existing station then a solution could be found.
As an airline or a passenger I would more than raise an eyebrow at being told my passengers (or myself) couldn't use the station that I could see but had to get a bus …
However, have you tried driving from SEN to Leigh on Sea station? It can take 15 mins, it can take 40 … The A127 and the A13 both have to be navigated and it's not always pretty and prone to delays, especially around busy times.
I still think if the local council, airport and MPs all got involved (which they are doing for this C2C initiative) but focused their energy on the existing station then a solution could be found.
As an airline or a passenger I would more than raise an eyebrow at being told my passengers (or myself) couldn't use the station that I could see but had to get a bus …
Yes I agree that journey times would vary greatly depending on the time of day. Just to clarify I was quoting journey times at around 05:50 and 23:20 as they would be the critical times to help solve the present early and late train problems.
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late night and early services
The reason SEN can't have early and late trains is that Network Rail needs the line to carry out the Crossrail improvement works. Crossrail is is national infrastructure project which will eventually link Essex commuters with a direct fast link to Heathrow. No amount of lobbying by Stobarts will change the priority that Network Rail gives Crossrail improvement works overnight.
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Well, this idea might have had some merit 2 weeks ago before c2c introduced a new timetable - fast trains to London all scrapped, journey times increased by 10-15 mins on all services, shorter trains, sever overcrowding on most peak services. It's gone from best to worst operator at a stroke.
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I have said this before but I will repeat myself. When a rail route franchise is up for renewal a list of requirements will be listed. For Thameslink which covers Luton that list extends to over 600 pages. This requirement will cover the minimum service allowed for different parts of the day and night. If that list does not require early and late trains that benefits the airport or even overnight trains then it will never happen as these sort of services can have a low demand so run at a loss.
The airports only hope is to persuade whoever writes the requirement to add these extra trains to the list. Then when the rail companies do their calculations they can come up with a bid that covers all the trains required to be run.
The airports only hope is to persuade whoever writes the requirement to add these extra trains to the list. Then when the rail companies do their calculations they can come up with a bid that covers all the trains required to be run.
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The new c2c timetable is awful for everything east of Leigh ..
I believe they were told all trains have to stop at barking ,West Ham and Stepney East. Something to do with the TFL oyster thing rollout
I believe they were told all trains have to stop at barking ,West Ham and Stepney East. Something to do with the TFL oyster thing rollout
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Just reading some of the come
commentary about the Dublin route and lack thereof and the remarks about Flybe putting up some competition for the London City - Dublin route.
The topic of the Dublin route had been debated to death on here. AerLingus Regional have a great track record of developing the Dublin routes from all over the UK, most in direct competition worth Ryanair. Southend didn't work, just as Edinburgh didn't work (easyJet). These routes may have been profitable ( few will know the precise facts), but clearly they were not profitable enough on a commercial basis. London Dublin is one of the most hourly contested and busy European routes and Southend didn't prove attractive to the travelling public.
The demand to destinations on the East side of England have always been marginal from The Island of Ireland, notably Manston, Southend, Norwich, Humberside..... All tried and tested. Southern are relying on a catchment of 600k locally, which is significant, though they need to develop the airport as an inbound route to London. That's not an easy ( pardon the pun) task.
As for seriously suggesting that premium paying business passengers who like the trimmings and their executive club and convenience of LCY switching to Southend, that is plain nonsense.
I wish Southend Airport well, I've flown there a bunch of times when easyJet did BFS and it was great, but it always felt like I was very far from London when I arrived, though it was only 50 mins.... If the Dublin route is to work easyJet would need to come onto the route at reasonable frequency and stock at it, but as it's to the Irish Republic, highly unlikely they'll touch it...
commentary about the Dublin route and lack thereof and the remarks about Flybe putting up some competition for the London City - Dublin route.
The topic of the Dublin route had been debated to death on here. AerLingus Regional have a great track record of developing the Dublin routes from all over the UK, most in direct competition worth Ryanair. Southend didn't work, just as Edinburgh didn't work (easyJet). These routes may have been profitable ( few will know the precise facts), but clearly they were not profitable enough on a commercial basis. London Dublin is one of the most hourly contested and busy European routes and Southend didn't prove attractive to the travelling public.
The demand to destinations on the East side of England have always been marginal from The Island of Ireland, notably Manston, Southend, Norwich, Humberside..... All tried and tested. Southern are relying on a catchment of 600k locally, which is significant, though they need to develop the airport as an inbound route to London. That's not an easy ( pardon the pun) task.
As for seriously suggesting that premium paying business passengers who like the trimmings and their executive club and convenience of LCY switching to Southend, that is plain nonsense.
I wish Southend Airport well, I've flown there a bunch of times when easyJet did BFS and it was great, but it always felt like I was very far from London when I arrived, though it was only 50 mins.... If the Dublin route is to work easyJet would need to come onto the route at reasonable frequency and stock at it, but as it's to the Irish Republic, highly unlikely they'll touch it...
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I believe they were told all trains have to stop at barking ,West Ham and Stepney East. Something to do with the TFL oyster thing rollout
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Diversions
While I would agree with Pain in the R's that things a pretty poor at the moment & need to improve a lot! with regard to very long delays to diversion passengers this is not unique to SEN as it is & has always been the case that diversions are treated like 2nd class citizens at other airports in particular STN & are usually parked on remote stands & are left waiting up to an hour or more to de-plane.
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it is & has always been the case that diversions are treated like 2nd class citizens at other airports in particular STN & are usually parked on remote stands & are left waiting up to an hour or more to de-plane.
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At the risk of floating off Southend...the fact remains that if you are diverted into an airport during one of the peaks, the service you receive will be substandard regardless of how good your handling agent is. From my experience in the industry Stansted seems to have a very poor record on this topic. It causes so many problems there that the number of diversions accepted now are severely restricted to try not to have an adverse effect on the scheduled operation, something which has happened in the past.
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In an effort to be lean and efficient Southend will have just enough staff on duty to cover the days planned movements. Nothing wrong in that but if the planned movements are just a couple of flights over a couple of hours and a mass of City diversions turn up then the diverted aircraft will just sit there maybe an hour or two waiting for the passengers to be off loaded.
Pain in the R's
Colourful though that image may be I don't think that has been the reality of the situation during December for example. SEN Operations do limit the number of diversions they accept and on at least one occasion Flybe have actually re-routed several LCY arrivals to SEN with an hour or more's notice thus making it easy to handle them efficiently upon their arrival.
Colourful though that image may be I don't think that has been the reality of the situation during December for example. SEN Operations do limit the number of diversions they accept and on at least one occasion Flybe have actually re-routed several LCY arrivals to SEN with an hour or more's notice thus making it easy to handle them efficiently upon their arrival.