BIRMINGHAM - 6
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Stafford
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reading through the press releases, I believe the ‘bigger than Heathrow’ comment was indeed just a bad case of poor journalism as I don’t believe even for a minute PL truly believes BHX could ever eclipse LHR. Besides, how could an expanded BHX take over LHR with just two runways when LHR is already crying out for an extra one?
It’s good to see the airport having aspirations but they need to be more realistic in their ambitions. As has already been suggested, this merely seems to be a cover up for the fact that the runway extension isn’t attracting the carriers they were hoping for so they’ll just throw out another ambitious plan to grab the headlines. If you look at the facts; BHX hasn’t been able to attract any new carriers that don’t require the extra tarmac so I don’t see how they can seriously think they’ll achieve any of this.
However, I’ll try and end on a positive note and say that the runway isn’t going to be done for about another nine months so there is always a chance an airline such as QR or a Chinese carrier is indeed in the bag and it is being kept quiet until nearer the time for a bit of extra fanfare.
It’s good to see the airport having aspirations but they need to be more realistic in their ambitions. As has already been suggested, this merely seems to be a cover up for the fact that the runway extension isn’t attracting the carriers they were hoping for so they’ll just throw out another ambitious plan to grab the headlines. If you look at the facts; BHX hasn’t been able to attract any new carriers that don’t require the extra tarmac so I don’t see how they can seriously think they’ll achieve any of this.
However, I’ll try and end on a positive note and say that the runway isn’t going to be done for about another nine months so there is always a chance an airline such as QR or a Chinese carrier is indeed in the bag and it is being kept quiet until nearer the time for a bit of extra fanfare.
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New services???
I indeed do hope that chinapattern is right and all this is a smoke screen for new services that may be announced in the near future.
If you remember plenty of noise was made about the return of a ORD service,but so far nothing.Then it was the turn of QTR,and although not BHX's fault,(re 787 problems),still nothing.More recently it was Air India saying that they will re-start services to BHX,again nothing further to date.
None of these services were rumoured either as they all appeared in some form of official press releases.
Maybe we are being impatient as we all know it takes takes time to set up new air services and maybe something has already been sorted.
Any 2 of the above 3 services would be a great start but the development wheels @ BHX do seem to turn very slowly.
I won't be holding my breath!!!
If you remember plenty of noise was made about the return of a ORD service,but so far nothing.Then it was the turn of QTR,and although not BHX's fault,(re 787 problems),still nothing.More recently it was Air India saying that they will re-start services to BHX,again nothing further to date.
None of these services were rumoured either as they all appeared in some form of official press releases.
Maybe we are being impatient as we all know it takes takes time to set up new air services and maybe something has already been sorted.
Any 2 of the above 3 services would be a great start but the development wheels @ BHX do seem to turn very slowly.
I won't be holding my breath!!!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eg RYR 175
<end thread drift>
Agreed with all the posts above - BHX is now the joker in the pack as far as UK airports are concerned. Everyone outside their little bubble can see that more ptp European routes are what is needed most.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Stafford
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you remember plenty of noise was made about the return of a ORD service,but so far nothing.Then it was the turn of QTR,and although not BHX's fault,(re 787 problems),still nothing.More recently it was Air India saying that they will re-start services to BHX,again nothing further to date.
None of these services were rumoured either as they all appeared in some form of official press releases.
Maybe we are being impatient as we all know it takes takes time to set up new air services and maybe something has already been sorted.
Any 2 of the above 3 services would be a great start but the development wheels @ BHX do seem to turn very slowly.
None of these services were rumoured either as they all appeared in some form of official press releases.
Maybe we are being impatient as we all know it takes takes time to set up new air services and maybe something has already been sorted.
Any 2 of the above 3 services would be a great start but the development wheels @ BHX do seem to turn very slowly.
Short haul wise surely bringing in EZY must be the main priority above anything else? I'd argue that Finnair and TAP are the likely contenders for any new legacy service. Maybe a bit of a wild card, but I’d love to see Icelandair give BHX a try.
With a bit of luck we’ll see TK go double daily but that aside I can’t see many opportunities medium-haul unless someone else attempts yet another one-stop link to Amritsar. It doesn’t look as though Mahan have any interest in coming back which I'm sure is a relief for anyone living along the flightpath!
As for long haul, I have no doubt EK will eventually go up to thrice daily, if only to throw off Qatar and/or Etihad like they did with Gulf Air. As Jet seem to have chosen MAN there is a stronger chance Air India will return when that might be is another matter. Would be good to see Thomson offer something new with the 787’s and I suppose there is the outside chance of Air Transat looking at YVR as this has always been impossible until now. PIA will probably just plod on as they have been but it would be interesting to see how they’d respond if Airblue took an interest. I’m not convinced about a Chinese carrier at this moment in time and I’d expect LHR/LGW would have all their services upgraded first before they start expanding anywhere else. And I’m sure the likes of Cathay would almost definitely opt for MAN first.
Time, as ever, will tell.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Middlesex (under the flightpath)
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote: "VERY slowly; I understand that these expansion plans are long term but the problem is I can't really see any scope for them to be viable in the short term. As one the largest regional airports in the country it's quite startling the amount of point-to-point services it lacks, especially when smaller airports seem to be able to sustain them. How can an airport claim to be the answer to Heathrows problems when it doesn't offer a direct flight to somewhere like Madrid?
Short haul wise surely bringing in EZY must be the main priority above anything else? I'd argue that Finnair and TAP are the likely contenders for any new legacy service. Maybe a bit of a wild card, but I’d love to see Icelandair give BHX a try.
With a bit of luck we’ll see TK go double daily but that aside I can’t see many opportunities medium-haul unless someone else attempts yet another one-stop link to Amritsar. It doesn’t look as though Mahan have any interest in coming back which I'm sure is a relief for anyone living along the flightpath!
As for long haul, I have no doubt EK will eventually go up to thrice daily, if only to throw off Qatar and/or Etihad like they did with Gulf Air. As Jet seem to have chosen MAN there is a stronger chance Air India will return when that might be is another matter. Would be good to see Thomson offer something new with the 787’s and I suppose there is the outside chance of Air Transat looking at YVR as this has always been impossible until now. PIA will probably just plod on as they have been but it would be interesting to see how they’d respond if Airblue took an interest. I’m not convinced about a Chinese carrier at this moment in time and I’d expect LHR/LGW would have all their services upgraded first before they start expanding anywhere else. And I’m sure the likes of Cathay would almost definitely opt for MAN first.
Time, as ever, will tell.
Excellent analysis, chinapattern!
Would add that AI is NOT coming back to BHX (have said this several times so apologies for the repitition), and like CX, any Asia carrier adding a UK destination would indeed look at MAN first.
Am quite surprised that there are no flights between BHX and MAD/WAW! These are the sort of routes that should be built up at BHX in the short term, that would give any potential future long haul operators some sort of connectivity.
However, Mr Kehoe and others continually fail to explain how they intend to entice carriers and premium business away from LHR. For BHX to be bigger than LHR, LHR needs to become smaller, it's not just about adding capacity at BHX, while LHR remains at 70,000,000 pax/year.
Failure to do this implies that they are not really serious. It's Boris island all over again.
Short haul wise surely bringing in EZY must be the main priority above anything else? I'd argue that Finnair and TAP are the likely contenders for any new legacy service. Maybe a bit of a wild card, but I’d love to see Icelandair give BHX a try.
With a bit of luck we’ll see TK go double daily but that aside I can’t see many opportunities medium-haul unless someone else attempts yet another one-stop link to Amritsar. It doesn’t look as though Mahan have any interest in coming back which I'm sure is a relief for anyone living along the flightpath!
As for long haul, I have no doubt EK will eventually go up to thrice daily, if only to throw off Qatar and/or Etihad like they did with Gulf Air. As Jet seem to have chosen MAN there is a stronger chance Air India will return when that might be is another matter. Would be good to see Thomson offer something new with the 787’s and I suppose there is the outside chance of Air Transat looking at YVR as this has always been impossible until now. PIA will probably just plod on as they have been but it would be interesting to see how they’d respond if Airblue took an interest. I’m not convinced about a Chinese carrier at this moment in time and I’d expect LHR/LGW would have all their services upgraded first before they start expanding anywhere else. And I’m sure the likes of Cathay would almost definitely opt for MAN first.
Time, as ever, will tell.
Excellent analysis, chinapattern!
Would add that AI is NOT coming back to BHX (have said this several times so apologies for the repitition), and like CX, any Asia carrier adding a UK destination would indeed look at MAN first.
Am quite surprised that there are no flights between BHX and MAD/WAW! These are the sort of routes that should be built up at BHX in the short term, that would give any potential future long haul operators some sort of connectivity.
However, Mr Kehoe and others continually fail to explain how they intend to entice carriers and premium business away from LHR. For BHX to be bigger than LHR, LHR needs to become smaller, it's not just about adding capacity at BHX, while LHR remains at 70,000,000 pax/year.
Failure to do this implies that they are not really serious. It's Boris island all over again.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 11th Jun 2013 at 17:28. Reason: typo
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However, Mr Kehoe and others continually fail to explain how they intend to entice carriers and premium business away from LHR. For BHX to be bigger than LHR, LHR needs to become smaller, it's not just about adding capacity at BHX, while LHR remains at 70,000,000 pax/year.
Even if LHR's 3rd gets kicked into the long grass again, they could still add capacity by using steadily larger frames - not an ideal option, but far more preferable to a split hub model, with the two not even being directly connected to each other.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Middlesex (under the flightpath)
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote: "But that's not going to happen without an act permitting nationalisation of a foreign-owned asset, and then we are indeed back to Fantasy Boris Island. Has Silver started working inthe BHX dreaming department?"
Am missing Silver a lot now....Silver, where are you? Come back, all is forgiven!
Quote: "Even if LHR's 3rd gets kicked into the long grass again, they could still add capacity by using steadily larger frames - not an ideal option, but far more preferable to a split hub model, with the two not even being directly connected to each other."
....and add a few more movements with mixed mode, although the delays and congestion would be much worse. It may be the only way to have flightpath residents wanting a third rwy.
Steadily larger frames has a disadvantage: it squeezes out thinner routes and thus some of the connectivity that a hub requires.
Am missing Silver a lot now....Silver, where are you? Come back, all is forgiven!
Quote: "Even if LHR's 3rd gets kicked into the long grass again, they could still add capacity by using steadily larger frames - not an ideal option, but far more preferable to a split hub model, with the two not even being directly connected to each other."
....and add a few more movements with mixed mode, although the delays and congestion would be much worse. It may be the only way to have flightpath residents wanting a third rwy.
Steadily larger frames has a disadvantage: it squeezes out thinner routes and thus some of the connectivity that a hub requires.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 11th Jun 2013 at 17:48.
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: solihull
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why are people getting so excited about the latest noises to come out of BHX? They are just part of a political game, yet some people talk as though they were a detailed plan of action complete with planning application to replace the landfill site with a runway! The real and immediate purpose is to drum up interest and excitement in the runway extension amongst the public and the airlines.
I see from airlineroute that QR are strengthening their route structure in Scandanavia - OSL CPH & ARN.
QATAR Airways to Start Boeing 787 Service to Scandinavia from Aug/Sep 2013 | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates
I don't quite see BHX on the horizon
QATAR Airways to Start Boeing 787 Service to Scandinavia from Aug/Sep 2013 | Airline Route ? Worldwide Airline Route Updates
I don't quite see BHX on the horizon
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: solihull West Midlands
Posts: 967
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crewmeal;
Re Qatar, you are naughty lol
Qatar ALREADY operate A330s into Copenhagen,Oslo and Stockholm ,they are just changing types to a 787, they were always more likely toget 787s before launching a new route, such as BHX .
!!
In fact their is a capacity drop from 305 seats on the A330s to 254 seats on the 787 on these routes.
Where I do agree is that there is nothing but silence now about a BHX route. However neither BHX or Qatar have ever specified a start date and with only 7 out of 60 787s delivered I think,it could depend on where we might be on the pecking order 2013.14.15 ?.
You also need to know BHX is not alone in the Qatar naming game..Helsinki was announced at a joint Qatar /Helsinki press conference nearly 2 years ago and they are still waiting for a start date also !
Nigel
Re Qatar, you are naughty lol
Qatar ALREADY operate A330s into Copenhagen,Oslo and Stockholm ,they are just changing types to a 787, they were always more likely toget 787s before launching a new route, such as BHX .
!!In fact their is a capacity drop from 305 seats on the A330s to 254 seats on the 787 on these routes.
Where I do agree is that there is nothing but silence now about a BHX route. However neither BHX or Qatar have ever specified a start date and with only 7 out of 60 787s delivered I think,it could depend on where we might be on the pecking order 2013.14.15 ?.
You also need to know BHX is not alone in the Qatar naming game..Helsinki was announced at a joint Qatar /Helsinki press conference nearly 2 years ago and they are still waiting for a start date also !
Nigel
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Solihull
Age: 60
Posts: 3,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qatar
crewmeal
As Nigel has stated in seats number terms these are downgrades. I think most of these routes either started as 319/320's or low frequency but increased quite quickly although EK have started CPH since with ARN next and although I am sure wonderful for the pax not a great vote of confidence.
I wonder if this frees up 3 x A330's and even a forth from the 2nd daily Munich 787, which starts later in the year or are the aircraft going off lease?
If they are freed up then it is another set-back and it will be interesting to see where they go. PHL-DOH is the only high profile new route I can think of coming on line and that is next year and I guess maybe the 330's are going or for additional frequencies on established routes.
Also of course DOH-NCE stopped 11 days ago and Stuttgart earlier this year so I doubt lack of aircraft will be the reason with European routes shrinking and even Seychelles is getting the chop come September although it is only an A320.
Pete
As Nigel has stated in seats number terms these are downgrades. I think most of these routes either started as 319/320's or low frequency but increased quite quickly although EK have started CPH since with ARN next and although I am sure wonderful for the pax not a great vote of confidence.
I wonder if this frees up 3 x A330's and even a forth from the 2nd daily Munich 787, which starts later in the year or are the aircraft going off lease?
If they are freed up then it is another set-back and it will be interesting to see where they go. PHL-DOH is the only high profile new route I can think of coming on line and that is next year and I guess maybe the 330's are going or for additional frequencies on established routes.
Also of course DOH-NCE stopped 11 days ago and Stuttgart earlier this year so I doubt lack of aircraft will be the reason with European routes shrinking and even Seychelles is getting the chop come September although it is only an A320.
Pete
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Stafford
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qatar
Can’t help but feel that the 787 delay has been quite convenient for Qatar when it comes to all these so called route announcements; as well as BHX and HEL they also said they were planning ATH-JFK. Given the state of the Greek economy BHX must be well down the pecking order if that's ahead of us! Wasn't one of the Scandinavian flights operated by the A319LR? What's stopping them using that to BHX to get the ball rolling?
Air India
Not that any of us believed it would be a reality but that potential August start date can be ignored; the latest 787 arrivals are being deployed to HGK, ICN and KIX so we won’t be seeing them here for the foreseeable.
Can’t help but feel we’re going round in circles again regarding new routes; wouldn’t it be nice it just once one of these rumours actually became a reality?
Can’t help but feel that the 787 delay has been quite convenient for Qatar when it comes to all these so called route announcements; as well as BHX and HEL they also said they were planning ATH-JFK. Given the state of the Greek economy BHX must be well down the pecking order if that's ahead of us! Wasn't one of the Scandinavian flights operated by the A319LR? What's stopping them using that to BHX to get the ball rolling?
Air India
Not that any of us believed it would be a reality but that potential August start date can be ignored; the latest 787 arrivals are being deployed to HGK, ICN and KIX so we won’t be seeing them here for the foreseeable.
Can’t help but feel we’re going round in circles again regarding new routes; wouldn’t it be nice it just once one of these rumours actually became a reality?
Last edited by chinapattern; 11th Jun 2013 at 19:48.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank goodness for QR, AI and EZY to give us something to gossip about regarding new routes from BHX as sadly there isn't actually anything factual to talk about!
The last legacy carrier to launch BHX flights was TK 5 years ago
The only new airline at BHX in last couple of years is BMI Regional - unless you count EZY going year round on BFS.
EK still only using 2 class aircraft on a now mature route that really should be able to attract enough F class pax (GLA managed it)
As far as we know, no new long haul carrier or destination on back of runway extension, meanwhile airlines clamour at all costs to get LHR slots
This pitiful lack of development a mega hub does not make
Hadn't thought of that but you could be onto something there. an up and coming short break destination and excellent connections to the U.S (KEF a far nicer airport to transit through than EWR). Only thing is they use 757's big birds to fill profitably on a frequency that would attract short breakers AND those making State side connections. Iceland Express loaded BHX-KEF flights in 2010, they never started, was that fallout from the ash cloud?
The last legacy carrier to launch BHX flights was TK 5 years ago
The only new airline at BHX in last couple of years is BMI Regional - unless you count EZY going year round on BFS.
EK still only using 2 class aircraft on a now mature route that really should be able to attract enough F class pax (GLA managed it)
As far as we know, no new long haul carrier or destination on back of runway extension, meanwhile airlines clamour at all costs to get LHR slots
This pitiful lack of development a mega hub does not make
Maybe a bit of a wild card, but I’d love to see Icelandair give BHX a try
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Stafford
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Iceland Express loaded BHX-KEF flights in 2010, they never started, was that fallout from the ash cloud?
The population of Iceland is well under 350,000.
Reykjavik is a small capital city that doesn't have lots of accommodation.
Yes, it's an attractive short break destination, but I doubt if there would be enough demand from BHX for a profitable service.
Reykjavik is a small capital city that doesn't have lots of accommodation.
Yes, it's an attractive short break destination, but I doubt if there would be enough demand from BHX for a profitable service.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,578
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good comments GF
A lot of Icelanders come to London to see the sights, so it sells itself.
They come to Manchester for premier league football and the vibe in the City.
There are also masses who come over at w/e for the retail opportunities at the Trafford Centre which with recent expansion is very savvy at marketing itself in Europe as one of the top 5 largest shopping Malls in therein.
Glasgow has long historical links with Iceland, there was an Icelandair service there 30 years ago.
KEF is also a nice little hub for US connections if timings are not to prohibitive.
RE EK and GLA I think EK are simply hovering up disaffected BA pax who used to fly on the Shuttle and punting them via Dubai.
The former BA Midland passengers still I guess use the car/train and so if you live North you go to MAN and use EK, QR etc and if you live south you go to LHR and do likewise.
The framework that suggests BHX is at the centre of a massive catchment area is actually very true BUT that dynamic is actually also working against the City.
In the same way that many long haul services have polarised towards the major hubs, they have done likewise at LHR and MAN albeit on a smaller scale. If you started tomorrow with a clean slate things I am sure would be very different but really not sure how BHX can break through the established stranglehold which is getting tighter.
A lot of Icelanders come to London to see the sights, so it sells itself.
They come to Manchester for premier league football and the vibe in the City.
There are also masses who come over at w/e for the retail opportunities at the Trafford Centre which with recent expansion is very savvy at marketing itself in Europe as one of the top 5 largest shopping Malls in therein.
Glasgow has long historical links with Iceland, there was an Icelandair service there 30 years ago.
KEF is also a nice little hub for US connections if timings are not to prohibitive.
RE EK and GLA I think EK are simply hovering up disaffected BA pax who used to fly on the Shuttle and punting them via Dubai.
The former BA Midland passengers still I guess use the car/train and so if you live North you go to MAN and use EK, QR etc and if you live south you go to LHR and do likewise.
The framework that suggests BHX is at the centre of a massive catchment area is actually very true BUT that dynamic is actually also working against the City.
In the same way that many long haul services have polarised towards the major hubs, they have done likewise at LHR and MAN albeit on a smaller scale. If you started tomorrow with a clean slate things I am sure would be very different but really not sure how BHX can break through the established stranglehold which is getting tighter.
Last edited by Bagso; 12th Jun 2013 at 06:01.
Nigel and OP
I already knew that they flew to destinations. What I meant by strengthened was the fact that they are targeting pax with the 787 instead of the 330.
New hub
I saw a diagram on ITV news last Friday showing where the new runway might go. It seems it will be alongside the M42. My question is how will the 2 runways connect each other for taxiing purposes? Tunnel the M42 perhaps? Is this project not going to be a white elephant if management can't attract new carriers now?
I already knew that they flew to destinations. What I meant by strengthened was the fact that they are targeting pax with the 787 instead of the 330.
New hub
I saw a diagram on ITV news last Friday showing where the new runway might go. It seems it will be alongside the M42. My question is how will the 2 runways connect each other for taxiing purposes? Tunnel the M42 perhaps? Is this project not going to be a white elephant if management can't attract new carriers now?
Last edited by crewmeal; 12th Jun 2013 at 06:24.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Found this from an image search:
So there's a huge amount of questions I'd ask even from that sketch map alone:
What the hell is resorts world?
Has the current runway shifted north, or the station south?
How much capacity do you lose with slightly off parallel runways? Surely the whole point is that two parallel lines NEVER cross each other?
And as crewmeal says - that is one hell of a taxiway!
So there's a huge amount of questions I'd ask even from that sketch map alone:
What the hell is resorts world?
Has the current runway shifted north, or the station south?
How much capacity do you lose with slightly off parallel runways? Surely the whole point is that two parallel lines NEVER cross each other?
And as crewmeal says - that is one hell of a taxiway!