BIRMINGHAM - 6
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so 6 weeks away from the AI launch date, there is no publicity for this route and you can't book it on their website.
Doesn't that strike you as being odd? Normally you'd have a 3 to 6 months lead time from route announcement through to inaugural flight so that word could be passed round the community
Doesn't that strike you as being odd? Normally you'd have a 3 to 6 months lead time from route announcement through to inaugural flight so that word could be passed round the community
Last edited by Ringwayman; 19th Jun 2013 at 20:23.
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Routes passenger numbers and yield.
Another example of yield being more important than numbers is BHX-STR look at the passenger loads (OPs posts) yet it still operates Mon-Fri twice a day and Sunday no reduction in seats on this route since Flybe took it on. It was always very lucrative for Maersk/BA.
Another example is of this is BHX-TLS I was quoted £300 BHX-TLS in August. Booked BA Club class for £245 and have the choice of 3 flights ex LHR not the ridiculous schedule bmiregional have. I'm surprised its attracting the passengers it is. I guess again aimed at last minute business travel, not holidaymakers heading to the Pyrenees!
It's only the low fares and charter flights that need to fill planes to high capacity.
Another example is of this is BHX-TLS I was quoted £300 BHX-TLS in August. Booked BA Club class for £245 and have the choice of 3 flights ex LHR not the ridiculous schedule bmiregional have. I'm surprised its attracting the passengers it is. I guess again aimed at last minute business travel, not holidaymakers heading to the Pyrenees!
It's only the low fares and charter flights that need to fill planes to high capacity.
Last edited by Daza; 19th Jun 2013 at 21:25.
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Air India
Not sure if this helps!
Welcome to Air-India Materials Management Department
Welcome to Air-India Materials Management Department
Taken from another forum.
Welcome to Air-India Materials Management Department
Welcome to Air-India Materials Management Department
Taken from another forum.
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It's only the low fares and charter flights that need to fill planes to high capacity.
One thing with some of the business routes is that they can be very skewed in a certain direction - e.g. if the demand is out first thing Monday, there could be hardly anyone on the return leg. That's only an issue for the locos / charters when they are operating the very first / last flights of a season (I went to DBV on the last sector out last year with BE and there were 4 of us pax).
Perhaps the only reason why these services operate at such low LFs is that they are already using the smallest a/c that might reasonably operate the route.
So I can't see 30-40% LFs breaking even on anything above the Q400/E jet size, unless it is operating as a feeder into a wider network (think Bombardier have tried to claim break even point is slightly sub 50% for this purpose, IIRC).
Which leaves me to wonder - if a return on the GOT route is £750+, how far could you push the foxtrot oscar pricing model? £3,000 air taxi for one?
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I think these examples are all niche cases, not the usual rule
My point was initially raised as the LF for MAN-GOT is known to be extremely low, but, is actually one of the best performing routes for yield alone.
To the casual observer who monitor Load factors alone, routes like the above will give 'cause for concern', but, BA/Sun Air are far from concerned.
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EK & AI
Bagso
Re EK depends on if you mean pax and load factor only as for yields and freight of course I have absolutely no idea.
Currently BHX load factor has varied from 67% to 85% in the six months GLA has gone double daily whereas GLA has been 58% - 75%. However it is a bit unfair to compare in one sense as BHX has an been going 7 years longer at double daily Also GLA load factors seem to be have been better in the first few months of it going double daily but BHX started in June 05 (I think) and Eastbound traffic has moved on since. Also it looks like EK with have some competition for Indian pax
AI.
As Ringwayman has stated quite an incredibly short lead-in period but we are talking AI, which is probably like no other airline for doing the unexpected.
I guess it will be AI's last attempt at making BHX work and I suppose if an 18/238 config can't work on a 787 nothing can. Connections to ATQ and BOM are fine from the timings I have seen but not quite so good for AMD.
Pete
Re EK depends on if you mean pax and load factor only as for yields and freight of course I have absolutely no idea.
Currently BHX load factor has varied from 67% to 85% in the six months GLA has gone double daily whereas GLA has been 58% - 75%. However it is a bit unfair to compare in one sense as BHX has an been going 7 years longer at double daily Also GLA load factors seem to be have been better in the first few months of it going double daily but BHX started in June 05 (I think) and Eastbound traffic has moved on since. Also it looks like EK with have some competition for Indian pax
AI.
As Ringwayman has stated quite an incredibly short lead-in period but we are talking AI, which is probably like no other airline for doing the unexpected.
I guess it will be AI's last attempt at making BHX work and I suppose if an 18/238 config can't work on a 787 nothing can. Connections to ATQ and BOM are fine from the timings I have seen but not quite so good for AMD.
Pete
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To the casual observer who monitor Load factors alone, routes like the above will give 'cause for concern', but, BA/Sun Air are far from concerned.
It would be interesting to see how those routes dealt with a scenario where APD is on the aircraft, not the individual, although I think that one's a dead duck for now.
So to that question, I'd just say that most planes are mostly full most of the time. The industry is far from perfect, but the inherent thirst for kerosene that even modern jets have keeps LF's high.
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but some people will ask the environmental question - ie, why are you moving so much air around, instead of selling those seats at a lower price to fill the plane
In terms of economics, for MAN-GOT and no doubt other similar cases around the world there is simply no need to, the route more than pays its way in its current format.
Environmentally its probably not that great, but, you have to wonder, are people that bothered when you see the bigger picture?
10-20 seats sold out of 30 on a small and quite economical propliner compared to 5 people on the private jet version of an E195, B737-700 and the likes suddenly puts it into perspective and isn't actually that bad.
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Jabird
That is a very very good point.
We are swallowed the line that Heathrow is highly efficient blah blah blah
OK it probably is , indeed I take my hat off to ATC, totally brilliant ...
BUT it seems perplexing to me and something that the Davies Commision s/b addressing to have flights leaving from the same airport to same destination at high frequency which are half empty!
I noticed somebody on another forum makes the same point LHR shifts tremendous amounts of traffic but most flights ...well being kind they seem pretty low on numbers.
I appreciate its competition, yes its a hub etc but something is intrinsically wrong with the model if a lot of the aircraft are not full.
OK it begs the question if you cannot fill it from Heathrow you won't fill it from anywhere where else including BHX BUT that does not mean that we carry on pursuing what in some cases is a level of futility which I do not think you would see in other organisations..
Has anybody noted the load factors on airport live, some are atrocious !
If Ryanair or Easyjet had aspirations about flying long haul, and slots were available at competitive rates from LHR how would their model differ from the jurassic carriers?
That is a very very good point.
We are swallowed the line that Heathrow is highly efficient blah blah blah
OK it probably is , indeed I take my hat off to ATC, totally brilliant ...
BUT it seems perplexing to me and something that the Davies Commision s/b addressing to have flights leaving from the same airport to same destination at high frequency which are half empty!
I noticed somebody on another forum makes the same point LHR shifts tremendous amounts of traffic but most flights ...well being kind they seem pretty low on numbers.
I appreciate its competition, yes its a hub etc but something is intrinsically wrong with the model if a lot of the aircraft are not full.
OK it begs the question if you cannot fill it from Heathrow you won't fill it from anywhere where else including BHX BUT that does not mean that we carry on pursuing what in some cases is a level of futility which I do not think you would see in other organisations..
Has anybody noted the load factors on airport live, some are atrocious !
If Ryanair or Easyjet had aspirations about flying long haul, and slots were available at competitive rates from LHR how would their model differ from the jurassic carriers?
Last edited by Bagso; 20th Jun 2013 at 05:53.
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AI
Great coup for BHX if it goes ahead.Like others and I have queried this in the past is the lead time.Could it be that AI have operated from here before and they are confident of the business?We shall see!!
If confirmed there will be a few hats being eaten as well!!
On the subject of load factors and yields etc,I wonder how much of BHX,s problems with attracting new routes and airlines is their charges.
Historically BHX has always been an expensive airport to not only fly from,but also to land an aircraft at.
Is there anyone out there who can provide a comparison as to how much it cost to land,handle and park an aircraft at BHX(say a B738 or A320),compared to our main competitors ie MAN,EMA or even BRS.I am sure a few people might be interested to know if this information is available from someone who has some idea.
In the meantime anyone for ketchup?
If confirmed there will be a few hats being eaten as well!!
On the subject of load factors and yields etc,I wonder how much of BHX,s problems with attracting new routes and airlines is their charges.
Historically BHX has always been an expensive airport to not only fly from,but also to land an aircraft at.
Is there anyone out there who can provide a comparison as to how much it cost to land,handle and park an aircraft at BHX(say a B738 or A320),compared to our main competitors ie MAN,EMA or even BRS.I am sure a few people might be interested to know if this information is available from someone who has some idea.
In the meantime anyone for ketchup?
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BHX BOD,
Charges will always vary dependant upon many factors, whilst you may find a list of headluine costs in practice I would very much doubt either the airline or airport will gie out exact costs and charges.
Charges will always vary dependant upon many factors, whilst you may find a list of headluine costs in practice I would very much doubt either the airline or airport will gie out exact costs and charges.
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Planeaddict: Looks as though AI will be starting after all then?
Have any timings been released?
Have any timings been released?
Effective 01/August/2013
AI 150 Dep DEL 14:15 Arr BHX 19:00 B787
AI 151 Dep BHX 21:30 Arr DEL 10:20 B787
4x weekly frequency, days of operation: Mon, Tue, Thu, Sat
AI 150 Dep DEL 14:15 Arr BHX 19:00 B787
AI 151 Dep BHX 21:30 Arr DEL 10:20 B787
4x weekly frequency, days of operation: Mon, Tue, Thu, Sat
.
Thread Starter
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AI 150 Dep DEL 14:15 Arr BHX 19:00 B787
AI 151 Dep BHX 21:30 Arr DEL 10:20 B787
AI 151 Dep BHX 21:30 Arr DEL 10:20 B787
I hope this is the first in a string of new services for BHX and I think Air India's presence will potentially help that.
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I hope this is the first in a string of new services for BHX and I think Air India's presence will potentially help that.
Who buys an expensive shiny new asset like a B787 then drops it into a secondary market route (re)launch at five minutes notice. Oh wait, Air India!
Great coup for BHX if it goes ahead
Having said that I might be tempted to nip in and see it off a summer evening. Second time lucky I hope for the route with a right sized aircraft.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 20th Jun 2013 at 17:44.
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Well, the environmental question will provide a completely different answer to the economical one.
However, we're still back to the old question about LF v yield. You can easily work out fuel needed to move x people y miles, but to start talking in revenue terms, we're in to the unknown.
I rather suspect that moving 10 people to work on valuable business deals in GOT is still better for UK PLC than a 189 seater 738 going to AGP, with 95% of passengers being either holidaymakers or expats.
That's also where the point about biz jets being an alternative kicks in. There are other ways of getting to places like GOT, BLL etc from the BHX or MAN catchment area, including direct from LHR or a transfer via CPH etc. However, people are still happy to pay £350+ for the sector? Why? Because it takes them direct. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable to consider whether a PJ would be the next most likely option if the RJ wasn't on offer.
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Who buys an expensive shiny new asset like a B787 then drops it into a secondary market route (re)launch at five minutes notice. Oh wait, Air India!
I don't think there is anything "secondary" about Brum in this respect - the route was profitable before, it was withdrawn over slot politics, and is an ideal place to bring in the B787 - don't even have to wait for runway xn.
Well done Brum
Skipness One Echo
Third actually! B707s routing Mumbai (Bombay I think back then)- Delhi-Armitsar-Moscow-BHX. Started in the early 80s, and finished around 1984 after the Golden Temple attack and the violence that followed in Amritsar.
Then the 767 operation through to Toronto - allegedly pulled to preserve LHR slots, Now the 787 service which doesn't even serve the principal VFR destination from the West Midlands - Amritsar.
I really can't get over excited about this one; the start date is too soon, the airline isn't exactly in the best of financial shape either - and most importantly AI is really a politcal football kicked around by Indian politicians.
Cynical perhaps - but I think the record speaks for itself.
Second time lucky I hope for the route with a right sized aircraft.
Then the 767 operation through to Toronto - allegedly pulled to preserve LHR slots, Now the 787 service which doesn't even serve the principal VFR destination from the West Midlands - Amritsar.
I really can't get over excited about this one; the start date is too soon, the airline isn't exactly in the best of financial shape either - and most importantly AI is really a politcal football kicked around by Indian politicians.
Cynical perhaps - but I think the record speaks for itself.