BIRMINGHAM - 6

[ssflyer]

Arrived midday today T2 and the queue for Passport Control backed up to the airbridge
steps.
When we got inside the queue included 3 full arrivals and only 2 officers (50%) handling EU passports and the aircon couldn't handle it.
Eventually another officer arrived but it took at least 40 mins in the heat to get through-the only compensation was at least our luggage was on the carousel.
Totally unacceptable - we have had far quicker ( and cooler) service in many places in the "Third World"

[Navpi]

Originally Posted by ATNotts

Where would you prefer? MAN with it's apparently dreadful security queues and lack of parking, LTN where the terminal is a work in progress and road access dreadful? LHR where you never know whether or not BAA are going to insist airlines cut flights because of weather or other issues, EDI?

I guess you get my drift. Chronic under investment at all the UK's major airports is causing delays at peak times.

BAA, takes me back to a glorious era of flying.

"I think we mean BA or IAG".

[LGS6753]

BAA, takes me back to a glorious era of flying.

...and how many people used UK airports in that "glorious era"?

[ATNotts]

Originally Posted by Hotel Tango

ATNotts your points are totally valid but no excuse. Birmingham's aim should be NOT to be like all the others. So, as a regular user, I for one will continue to highlight this airport's failures until I see positive improvements for the users.

The problem is that like all other airports, BHXs' main aim is to maximise profits for their shareholders, and if that means people experience what I too consider to be unreasonable delays during peak times then I reckon the airport companies believe that is a price worth paying.

As for BAA, I used that term as shorthand for London airports which of course is total nonsense.

[22/04]

One problem is that people want to fly for next to nothing. In order to sustain this massive market, profits by anyone are wafer thin.

[ATNotts]

Originally Posted by Hotel Tango

Too much of a generalisation. Without doubt many do, but not all. I think that one of Birmingham's main problems is the mix of LCC passengers and mainline Economy passengers using the same terminal facilities. The two should be separated and be given facilities appropriate to their chosen "style" of travel. Quite a number of airports around the world have dedicated LCC terminals now days.

Excellent solution if only it were practical. Rather like the passengers who expect everything, but want to pay for nothing, the LCCs themselves want a level of service, but don't want to pay for it.

If you did have full service and no-frills terminals, which carriers would you lump in the to each category. Easy to categorise are the likes of United, Emirates, and Lufthansa (mainline) who would go into the full service terminal; and Ryanair, Wizz and EasyJet into the no frills terminal.

But where would you put FlyBe, and how about Thomson and Jet2? I guess the answer would be how much the airlines be willing to pay to give their customers a level of comfort, service and efficiency on the ground.

Another consideration is outside agencies particularly UK Border Agency who may not be willing to staff two separate UK border posts at smaller airports such as BHX.

I'm afraid that whatever the minority want (a smooth efficient transit through airports, free of bottlenecks like security, and a path to the gate that doesn't require a Hampton Court style maze to negotiate to get through the rip off that is airport shopping and the infernal Duty Free shop), it is the majority who know the price of everything and value of nothing that will win through.

I hate it, and it's part of the reason I've largely given up short haul flying in favour of taking my own car on Eurotunnel, but I fear the battle is long lost.

[FRatSTN]

I think that one of Birmingham's main problems is the mix of LCC passengers and mainline Economy passengers using the same terminal facilities. The two should be separated and be given facilities appropriate to their chosen "style" of travel.

I don't agree. Part of the reason why BHX merged both their former T1 and T2 (Eurohub) facilities together was to realize the benefits of a single passenger throughput. Not only can it make core operational processes more efficient, it allows every passenger to get the full "experience" thus maximizing consumer choice, and that's only getting more important as airports diversify their income.

People who fly LCCs are also not necessarily budget spenders and may actually be willing to spend extra in airport Terminals to upgrade their experience to something more premium. Putting those passengers into a basic Terminal with few facilities is ultimately lost revenue.

There has to be a solid business case to segment passengers in this way and I can assure you that, for probably any UK airport, there simply just isn't one and unlikely to be anytime soon. If you look around, you'll find there's actually little evidence to show low-cost terminals give any long-term competitive advantage to airports.

[22/04]

FR@STN and Hotel Tango

If we look at your posts you have highlighted the difference between the UK and elsewhere in Europe and the US.

In the latter low cost operators are often located in separate terminals or wings of terminals In the US you will find Delta, United and American segmented from Southwest, Spirit and Frontier- there are operators who can fit into either model e.g. JetBlue.

In Europe the division may be low cost via the others (Schipol, CDG) and in some places has resulted in low cost vs former national carrier (Barcelona with Vueling and legacy one side and EZY, FR etc on the other).

In the UK we have really abandoned the legacy model for short haul which is why some UK pax will travel with airlines like Swiss which haven't. UK pax have embraced the low cost model more extensively than elsewhere. Whether this also happens to long haul remains to be seen but Norwegian Thomas Cook and Jet2 are starting to invade that space too.

BHX has insufficient long haul traffic to warrant separation and much of its Long Haul product is low cost (of provision if not service eg. Emirates) anyway. Legacy business oriented long haul is really only Heathrow and to a small extent Manchester.

FR you are correct for the UK and Hotel Tango has valid points for Europe

[tubby linton]

The obvious answer at BHX is put all of one Loco carriers flying into the original terminal on the west side.

[Hotel Tango]

I don't agree. Part of the reason why BHX merged both their former T1 and T2 (Eurohub) facilities together was to realize the benefits of a single passenger throughput. Not only can it make core operational processes more efficient, it allows every passenger to get the full "experience" thus maximizing consumer choice, and that's only getting more important as airports diversify their income.

There is of course merit in that concept. However, it brings us back to where we started, that BHX no longer has the infrastructure to provide this single passenger throughput. Consequently I question its "efficiency". As for spending money in the terminal, last time I departed from Brum I wanted to have a hot meal at G's (this around 3PM in the afternoon on a Thursday). I was told it would be a 45 minute wait to get a table! I didn't bother. Had a coffee at Costa's and bought food on the flight!

[Hotel Tango]

As to what constitutes an LCC is indeed a difficult one to answer. I'm almost tempted to suggest there are 2 classes of LCCs My main route in and out of BHX is presently DUS. When I started using that route it was a Lufthansa flight operated by Eurowings. Over the years it has seen some changes and now it is a Eurowings route (often operated by GermanWings). The point is that it progressively transitioned from a legacy type operation to what is now an LCC operation. However, I see Eurowings/Germanwings as a superior LCC model to some of the others out there. It's a personal opinion of course but there it is.

[FRatSTN]

BHX no longer has the infrastructure to provide this single passenger throughput. Consequently I question its "efficiency".

Again... there has to be a business case. Infrastructure is expensive and the airport needs a worthwhile return on what it invests.

For example, no airport is going to invest in say 5 new security lanes that may only be needed for an hour during peak periods (atleast not unless your airlines are willing to stump up for the costs). The airport is never going to get any kind of financially viable return on that. Instead, they have to ride those kind of capacity issues an that's done by building greater efficiency into their operation.

Granted any "efficiency" may not always seem that obvious to the customer, but it's about adding longevity to existing infrastructure to hold off from any costly investment until it's absolutely necessary. Remember the airport is not a charity, it has shareholders to please and has to succeed in a ruthlessly competitive market.

[Hotel Tango]

With all due respect FRatSTN (and I say this tongue-in-cheek) you sound too much like those managers who believe in their own business yuckspeak.

If the airport wants the revenue from all the extra flights it has accepted then it needs to use part of that revenue to improve the throughput of those additional passengers. My contention is that BHX has not done that. In any case, the problems pax face at BHX extends far beyond the issue of security lanes. By the way, it's not about the total number of lanes but how many are actually in operation at any one time. When it comes to arrivals, that can at times be almost as bad as JFK! The fact is that both terminals are now just too small and often bursting at the seams. Yet the airport quite happily continues to accept more and more flights/airlines to operate. Maybe they should just put that on hold until they can improve their infrastructure.

[Matt995]

Originally Posted by LVL_CHG

Does anyone know why and when the glidepath for rwy33 is likely to be back up and running?

The NOTAMs say the end of June but I'm taking that with a pinch of salt. I've not seen a calibrator or anything at all!

as per the Notam :-

Q) EGTT/QICXX/I/NBO/A/000/999/5227N00145W005
B) FROM: 17/06/22 16:13C) TO: 17/07/31 23:59
E) RWY 33 ILS RADIATING TO CAT 1 ONLY
C3104/17

ILS now radiating on Runway 33, after it was calibrated today!

[tubby linton]

So the ILS is back to where it was last Summer. I hope that it doesn't lose functionality again as it did last Autumn. When will it be recertified for Cat 3 ops?
Matt I hope that this time the issue has been truly rectified as you last posted a similarly optimistic post about it over a year ago, and look what happened!

[bhx bod]

Infrastructure and expansion.

I actually agree with Fr@STN.
It is a chicken and egg situation.
We had many years where the airport stagnated,then all of a sudden Paul Kehoe and his team bring route expansion never seen before in the airports history.We have gone from less than 10 million pax to almost 13 million in a very short time.
Now as for infrastructure,surely you need the commitment of the airlines to operate before you embark on a multi-million pound spend to improve facilities.Without that commitment then any spend will be seen as a waste of money.Some people are saying the runway extension was exactly that.
All airports go through growing pains at some point,BHX has become a victim of its own success,and to a degree should be applauded for what it has achieved.However this has brought its own problems.
I can assure you,as someone who has worked at the airport for over 20 years,the airport company is well aware of its responsibility to its customers,and it has started to tackle the problems at baggage reclaim etc.
I witnessed a few problems last night,and a number of passengers were saying they would never use BHX again.
It is disappointing when these things happen,but BHX is not alone as many on this forum know.

There is some uncertainty as to whether a number of airlines will continue to operate some of their services/routes from the end of this summer,so although the airport has committed to much needed improvements,which will take time to complete,where exactly do you draw the line.
The addition of Jet2 and continued expansion of TOM,TCX and 1 or 2 others pax numbers should continue to rise,despite the political and security uncertainties.
HS2 is another problem,as some future expansion could well involve that facility,and we all know the situation there.
Unfortunately I can see problems getting worse this summer before things should settle down and improve going forward.We just have to hope that any damage done to the airports reputation is not permanent.

[FRatSTN]

And with all due respect Hotel Tango... you obviously don't know very much about how a business actually operates.

About six weeks was my last flight from BHX with an 8am departure and I didn't encounter any real problems. Perhaps you've just been unlucky, or maybe just not the most tolerant of people who knows?

You seem surprised to find Security and Passport lanes out of action. That's because the airport is managing it's resources to meet the current demand. So if, hypothetically, one security lane can manage 200 passengers in 1 hour and there's 2,000 passengers to come through, they'll need 10 security lanes open. If in the following hour there's only 1,000 passengers, they only need 5 open. It's not rocket science and it's called... wait for it...... "Efficiency".

The airport is not going to just stop growing or suddenly invest millions in infrastructure (whether it be security lanes, seating areas etc.) when the problems you encounter are on the whole manageable or non-existent. The airport will work with a lot of people to manage their growth properly, it's not just a free-for-all for airlines to come in as and when they like.

Unfortunately, like it or not, the days of state owned airports with quality services and quality infrastructure to the extent that becomes a somewhat drain on the taxpayer, in the UK at least, are long gone. Either get over it, or fly from different airport... but don't expect many of them to be much better!

EDIT... Finally bhx bod, someone who is talking some sense.

[Matt995]

Originally Posted by tubby linton

So the ILS is back to where it was last Summer. I hope that it doesn't lose functionality again as it did last Autumn. When will it be recertified for Cat 3 ops?
Matt I hope that this time the issue has been truly rectified as you last posted a similarly optimistic post about it over a year ago, and look what happened!

The ILS has to radiate for 200 hours at Cat 1 before it can be upgraded back to Cat 2 and Cat3b level. I've heard from somebody in the know that there should be no reason for it not to be back up to Cat 3, guess we will all have to wait and see, lets hope we don't have any heavy rain and the drainage issues start again!!

[Hotel Tango]

And with all due respect Hotel Tango... you obviously don't know very much about how a business actually operates.

On the contrary, I know only too well how business operates, and I guess that's my real problem. I think that too many management teams today hide behind their standard well-rehearsed yuckspeak statements which they churn out on a regular basis. Few look outside the box anymore.

when the problems you encounter are on the whole manageable or non-existent.

And that's another common management tactic. Suggest the customer can't possibly be right.

I will simply say again that in all the 50+ years I have used Brum (the last 35 of which were roughly on a 10 round trips per annum) I have never seen it as bad as it has become of late. OK, that's it, I'll shut up now

[OltonPete]

Monarch

Interesting discussion on facilities and in the meantime..........Monarch have three new routes this week with yesterday seeing what I believe the first scheduled BHX - Rhodes (plenty of IT flights) and right now the first Valencia is returning and then Split Sunday. The 738 also starts services soon and this is bashing the circuits at MME, PIK NQY and SNN.

I will be customer next month but as an aviation enthusiast it is a purple patch (taking out the 33 ILS saga which seems to have or coming to an end) for the airport in terms of airlines and movements - the last hour of so not many airports have had an A380 and AN12 movement mixed in with bizjets, loco's and full service airlines.


Forgot Monarch Naples starts tomorrow again another first on the schedule flight front.