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Ryanair - 9

Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:03
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Ryanair seem to be on very dodgy legal ground here, particularly because they are redefining the nature of a contract.

When you make a contract it is assumed that the other party to that contract will act in good faith and not deliberately do something which is to your disadvantage. When you hire a car you do not expect it to be without fuel despite the fact that this may not be mentioned in the documentation.

In this case Ryanair appear to be acting in bad faith and deliberately disadvantaging customers. I would expect some form of legal response fairly quickly.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:14
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One would hope so. Because there's a difference between saying you have to pay for something that you don't have and deliberately taking something away so that then something has to be paid for. Deliberately splitting up couples in order to derive more income does cross a line I think
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:24
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Originally Posted by occasional
Ryanair seem to be on very dodgy legal ground here, particularly because they are redefining the nature of a contract.

When you make a contract it is assumed that the other party to that contract will act in good faith and not deliberately do something which is to your disadvantage. When you hire a car you do not expect it to be without fuel despite the fact that this may not be mentioned in the documentation.

In this case Ryanair appear to be acting in bad faith and deliberately disadvantaging customers. I would expect some form of legal response fairly quickly.
Not sure of that. Contractually I don't believe they've done or are doing anything in breach of contract. They agree to provide 'a seat' on their flight in return for your paid airfare. If you further contract to purchase a specific seat allocation, they provide it (subject to operational safety requirements). I don't believe the legal contract argument carries weight at all, though interesting viewpoint nonetheless.

General Conditions of Carriage

6.1 All flights operate with allocated seating, we reserve the right to assign or reassign seats at any time, even after boarding of the aircraft. This may be necessary for operational, safety or security reasons.
and 6.2 mentions the following:

Effective from October 2016 for an adult travelling with children under 12 (excl. infants) it will become mandatory for one adult in the booking to reserve a seat. All children under 12 in the same booking will receive a reserved seat free of charge. This ensures parents and young children sit together during the flight. This will also allow you to check-in for your flight 60 days before departure.

Also, as detailed under the Ryanair regulations on specific subjects under their General T&Cs the following is clearly stated:

Reserved seating

Customers can select and buy their preferred seat online from the time of booking right up to 2 hours before each booked flight.

There are 3 types of allocated seat available for purchase:

Priority with extra legroom Seats from / 11.00 - Rows 1,2 (D,E,F) & 16,17 (includes priority boarding)

Priority Seats from /7.00 - Rows 2 (A,B,C)3 -5 (includes priority boarding)

Passengers who have purchased Priority Boarding will not be asked to place their cabin bag in the aircraft hold, unless necessary due to operational reasons.

Standard Seats from /2.00 Rows 6-15 & 18-33

Allocated seat fees are non-refundable except as provided in Articles 4.2, 10.2, 10.3 and 10.4

Customers who do not wish to select and purchase their preferred seat, can check-in online between 4 days and 2 hours before each booked flight and will be randomly allocated a seat free of charge.

Last edited by mik3bravo; 3rd Jul 2017 at 08:55.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:50
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A quick look at Wikipedia produces

"Terms can be implied into contracts according to the custom of the market in which the contracting parties are operating."

I would suggest that seating parties together is a longstanding custom in the aviation market and that it is therefore an implied term of the contract.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 08:58
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Originally Posted by occasional
A quick look at Wikipedia produces

"Terms can be implied into contracts according to the custom of the market in which the contracting parties are operating."

I would suggest that seating parties together is a longstanding custom in the aviation market and that it is therefore an implied term of the contract.
Unless expressly stated otherwise which they expressly do state on the T&Cs that random selection applies in certain specific circumstances. Implied meaning is redundant in that case.

The question arises, are the T&Cs any more onerous than the majority of other airlines? [that's a rhetorical question btw].
This is the legal benchmark of proof and in my personal opinion, contractually they are fair and balanced through providing a passenger with choice and alternative which is what is important.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 09:28
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I certainly don't see anything legally questionable about their above quoted T&Cs. It's clear and it's fair. Furthermore, as already stated, for only €2 a seat (standard seats) That's an additional €16 round trip for a family of four (less if the kids are under age 12). I really cannot grasp what the problem is here.

AerRyan reckons he/she paid €6 per seat. The nearest I can see to that figure is the Priority seating although it is quoted in their T&Cs as €7 per seat. That is an extra service. Again, I don't find that particularly expensive. Finally, at €11 per seat for Priority and extra legroom I consider that a very fair price. My airline of choice charges €20 per seat for that (not that I use that option mind).
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 10:01
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Originally Posted by mik3bravo
Not sure of that. Contractually I don't believe they've done or are doing anything in breach of contract. They agree to provide 'a seat' on their flight in return for your paid airfare. If you further contract to purchase a specific seat allocation, they provide it (subject to operational safety requirements). I don't believe the legal contract argument carries weight at all, though interesting viewpoint nonetheless.

General Conditions of Carriage


and 6.2 mentions the following:

[/B]
Also, as detailed under the Ryanair regulations on specific subjects under their General T&Cs the following is clearly stated:

[/B]


I suggest your post illustrates the problem.
To discover what will happen the passenger has to read through reams of terms and conditions and even then the terms are only clear to those who already know what they mean. This, per se, is undesirable as it wastes a massive amount of time for the whole community.
To my mind it is time that the authorities (in the UK the OFT) came down hard on these attempts to erode the fundamental basis of contracts for they waste hours of many peoples time.

Last edited by occasional; 3rd Jul 2017 at 10:20.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 10:07
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
Furthermore, as already stated, for only €2 a seat (standard seats)
No, it's from €2/2 a seat.

You will find relatively few, if any, selectable seats left at that price when you check in online.

Originally Posted by Hotel Tango
AerRyan reckons he/she paid €6 per seat.
As it happens, I've just paid 6 per seat in each direction for a trip with the wife in a couple of weeks time. That's a bog-standard seat (Row 14), no additional legroom or other priority.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 11:07
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Originally Posted by occasional
I suggest your post illustrates the problem.
To discover what will happen the passenger has to read through reams of terms and conditions and even then the terms are only clear to those who already know what they mean. This, per se, is undesirable as it wastes a massive amount of time for the whole community.
To my mind it is time that the authorities (in the UK the OFT) came down hard on these attempts to erode the fundamental basis of contracts for they waste hours of many peoples time.
Nanny state is what you are suggesting. Citizens are not dumb. Every online airfare booking requires the purchaser to affirm they've read and accept the T&Cs. Most people can't be bothered to read any T&Cs so that's not an airlines problem. That's the laziness on the part of the consumer. The Ryanair approach to clear T&Cs is comparable to all other airlines. In other words it's consumer clear and provides several options and choices to the consumer. However, becoming a Nanny state under a Brexit cluster flup national fallout will be an own goal.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 11:37
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I'm with occasional on the T&C question. The relationship between a person and a company on a retail transaction should be straightforward enough to be understood by both sides in the vast majority of cases without reference to the legal documentation. The legals are substantially there in case of a dispute rather than customers reading them by default - and I imagine most people lack the legal knowledge to undetstand fully the finer points of the T&Cs. It is the responsibility of the company to communicate clearly in easily understood language and in a transparent and obvious manner what a consumer should expect on a retail transaction prior to purchase.

Ryanair will have a few lawyers who have substantial legal training and act once for all journeys sold for the year - making it worth their while. Expecting Joe Bloggs who didn't go to law school to refer T&Cs on a purchase worth 50 to a solicitor who charges 200 per hour might be legally permissible but is utterly unreasonable - it's why we have consumer protection laws in the first place

If I buy a train ticket from London to Edinburgh, I have a clear understanding of what to expect without reading the legals. Same goes for flying with Easyjet or BA. I don't understand why Ryanair should be able to bury things in the legals and get away with it.

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 3rd Jul 2017 at 11:59.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 11:54
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Simple solution. Do away with random seat allocation as much as possible. Select your seats at online check in. Earlier you check in online then better your chances to select and pay for seats you prefer. If you fail to online check in time then you go to a check in desk. Ask if your preference seat locations are available and pay by card if a charge is due. Alternatively you should be given a choice - pay the nominal cost for a preferenced seat or waive the charge and take what you're given.

I found a very valid comment on this issue which was:

You know this when you choose Ryanair. Why should I pay for this & then have to listen to people in front of me holding up queues arguing they SHOULD be put sitting together when they easily COULD be sitting together had they paid for it. No pay, no play.
the journal.ie

However, I do find it ridiculous that people who decide not to buy allocated seats then kick off cause they can't seat together. It's a stupid argument. Is austerity THAT bad that punters can scratch a few bob together to buy seats together. You can be damn certain some of these people are the ones flashing the cards for the exorbitant in flight snacks, beers, duty free products. Complete storm in a tea cup. There's zero legal or contractual implied or otherwise, it's open, fair, balanced. Nuts that people get knickers in a twist on an issue they had choice in purchasing allocated seats but go mental when they can't seat all together. Meanwhile majority of pax on board have actually taken a decision to buy allocated seats.

Last edited by mik3bravo; 3rd Jul 2017 at 12:14.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 13:42
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Originally Posted by mik3bravo
Simple solution. Do away with random seat allocation as much as possible. Select your seats at online check in. Earlier you check in online then better your chances to select and pay for seats you prefer. If you fail to online check in time then you go to a check in desk. Ask if your preference seat locations are available and pay by card if a charge is due. Alternatively you should be given a choice - pay the nominal cost for a preferenced seat or waive the charge and take what you're given.

I found a very valid comment on this issue which was:



the journal.ie

However, I do find it ridiculous that people who decide not to buy allocated seats then kick off cause they can't seat together. It's a stupid argument. Is austerity THAT bad that punters can scratch a few bob together to buy seats together. You can be damn certain some of these people are the ones flashing the cards for the exorbitant in flight snacks, beers, duty free products. Complete storm in a tea cup. There's zero legal or contractual implied or otherwise, it's open, fair, balanced. Nuts that people get knickers in a twist on an issue they had choice in purchasing allocated seats but go mental when they can't seat all together. Meanwhile majority of pax on board have actually taken a decision to buy allocated seats.

Nobody's "kicking off" or "getting their knickers in a twist". We're simply having a reasonable discussion about Ryan Air's pricing policies. It seems that those who regularly pay for seats are getting very resentful about the alleged freeloaders who don't.


I'm happy being allocated a random seat. If they want to force people to pay for a seat they should hike the advertised fare to include the cost of a reservation. Until that happens people need to accept the fact that other passengers are content to be seated randomly.


BTW it's never two euros to change seats in my experience. It's often more like 12 euros per seat.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 13:50
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Originally Posted by mik3bravo
I found a very valid comment on this issue which was
... in all likelihood penned by a Ryanair sockpuppet

What a shame that thejournal.ie, like many of the publications reporting on the issue, didn't have the nous or cojones to challenge Ryanair's disingenuous lie that "this policy has been in place since 2014".

Even Ryanair's own crews are now complaining about the grief they have started getting from passengers as a result of the new policy.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 13:53
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Any link to that comment?
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 14:12
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Isn't the point actually that if you don't pay for allocated seating then you can't expect a [I]guarantee[I]of seats together. BUT, if there are seats together still, surely the algorithm should seat you together if you're travelling together. I don't pay for a reserved seat on a train so I don't insist that my seats are together. But more often than not they are.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 14:43
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Originally Posted by mik3bravo
Any link to that comment?
Seventh comment down on the link in my (and your) post.

"I was told that this was a new policy by a crew member on a flight last week. She said it was making things extremely difficult for them as passengers are being deliberately split up"
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 18:25
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Originally Posted by AerRyan
Cost 6 a seat on my last flight, so 12 per person return. 60 for a group of 5.

Not very cheap is it?
Cost of total ticket, cost of total trip..................
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 18:30
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No, it's from 2/2 a seat.
You will find relatively few, if any, selectable seats left at that price when you check in online.
If you are going to purchase seats why would you not purchase them at time of booking rather than wait until you check in online when the choice may be less? It's a long time since I paid more than 2 for a seat and always done at booking time.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 18:46
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Originally Posted by mik3bravo
Nanny state is what you are suggesting. Citizens are not dumb. Every online airfare booking requires the purchaser to affirm they've read and accept the T&Cs. Most people can't be bothered to read any T&Cs so that's not an airlines problem. That's the laziness on the part of the consumer. The Ryanair approach to clear T&Cs is comparable to all other airlines. In other words it's consumer clear and provides several options and choices to the consumer. However, becoming a Nanny state under a Brexit cluster flup national fallout will be an own goal.
People keep on saying that the T and Cs are clear, but as far as I am aware the same T&Cs applied to both the present policy and the previous policy.
Quite obviously that makes them unclear or irrelevant.
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Old 3rd Jul 2017, 20:56
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Having flown with Ryanair since 2002 in appr 200 flights I have followed the development from a consumer perspective. From MOL "What part of fu--ing no returns did you not understand" to "Always getting better".
I do not have a problem with separate seating as such. I do believe this has killed a lot of the goodwill FR REALLY has built up the last two years. Earlier we all played the Ryanair game. Measuring hand luggage, weighing hand luggage, buying 0,01 tickets...Then came the more relaxed and sensible approach. Now it is one step back...
Personally I normally fly Norwegian when I have a choice and then I pay for seating. If i travelled with company on FR I would do the same.
I flew a few weeks back with FR.I did not pay for reserved seat. And yes I did get a middle seat on both flights.
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